Links
Javay’s Website: https://www.javaydabae.com/
The Millennial Sexpert Website: https://www.themillennialsexpert.com/
Javay’s Instagram: @millenialsexpert & @javaydabae
RAINN: https://www.rainn.org/resources
Transcript
0:02 Intro: Hi there, welcome to Well Dukes, brought to you by The Well. Each week, you'll hear conversations from a variety of JMU staff and students that we hope challenge what you know, think, or do in regard to your own health, and helps you be Well Dukes.
0:20 Jordan: Hey, everyone, it's Jordan. And with me today as my co-host and returning guest is Veronica Jones. Welcome back, Veronica.
0:29 Veronica: Hi, thank you so much for having me.
0:31 Jordan: Of course. So you had a great opportunity to talk to our other guest today, Javay Da Bae, aka the Millennial Sexpert. Javay is finishing up her Master of Education degree in Human Sexuality from Widener University, and is also a JMU alumna. I had the pleasure to talk to Javay on an earlier episode about orgasms and masturbation. And you had a conversation with her for this episode in honor of Sexual Assault Awareness Month.
1:00 Veronica: Yes, Javay and I talked about how to support survivors of sexual violence and the trauma that can come with that.
1:09 Jordan: Awesome, let’s get right to it.
[Musical Interlude]
1:14 Veronica: Hi, Javay. Thank you so much for joining me for this episode.
1:18 Javay: Hello, of course.
1:20 Veronica: Now, I know that you were studying human sexuality. [Javay: Yes.] And I was wondering if you could start us off just a little bit, talking about how the topic of supporting survivors shows up in your studies and your work as a part of human sexuality.
1:38 Javay: Um, so it shows up in our studies, and just like actually coming from, like, a trauma-informed, social justice-rooted space and understanding the way the world works. And with that, we learn how to actually like work with people who have experienced sexual assault, from a place of, like, actually helping them and listening to them, instead of the space of, like, we have to solve a problem. Like, it's not that you were there to solve our problem. It's that you're there to support them. And how that shows up in, like, my own personal sex education work is just being mindful always of the language I'm using. And what it is that I'm actually trying to say, like, am I creating content that is about like, “Hey, I'm here, just to let you know that someone else is like, supporting you, listening to you, believing you?” Or is it like I'm trying to offer actual tangible pieces of, like, if you don't know about these resources, here they are, it's being mindful of what exactly it is you're trying to say. Especially because no, not everyone that experienced sexual assault experiences it the same way. So you have to be extremely aware of that situation. Because sexual assault is not just like, cookie cutter experience for everyone, it varies and differs. And we have to... That's a part of our program is learning like, none of sexuality is ever going to be cookie cutter, no one's gonna experience any of it the same. But when it comes to sexual assault, that's a very big portion where it's like, this is going to look different from who you're talking to. And how you engage, engage and interact with them needs to look different as well.
3:08 Jordan: While we did not plan it this way, but this completely leads us perfectly into the next question, if you will, that I wanted to ask. First, I want to acknowledge just as you just did, that everyone responds differently after experiencing any kind of sexual harm. And yet what we often see portrayed in media is not always an accurate reflection of the complexities of a trauma response. So what are your thoughts about that?
3:38 Javay: It's so tough, because I love media, like I started in media and like, that's my realm. And I believe in the power of storytelling. And I think that when it comes to media and storytelling around sexual assault, and survivors of sexual assault, it's-- it just like it paints this picture. And it's not an accurate picture by any means. Like, it's always like, “Oh, it happened, I went to the hospital, they ran tests, I, like, reported it.” And it's like, majority the time, that's not going to be the way this goes down. Majority of the time, most people don't want to actually report it, because we have seen our justice system at work. And it's not a just system. And so media kind of, like, makes you think that it's going to play out this way. But in reality, it plays out a completely different way. Also, for most people, we aren't even given the tools to recognize the different types of sexual assault, We all are given the definition of rape, we know what that looks like. We know what sexual harassment and like a workplace in school place looks like. But there's a lot of fine lines that aren't depicted in media, aren't explained in classrooms. And so you're kind of like this situation didn't sit right with me. And I don't know why I don't know how to label this. I don't have the language to talk about it. What do I do? And so the media not showing that kind of also leaves people a little, like, the short end of the stick. To be like, I don't-- I don't know, was this sexual assault? Was this like a situation? I don't know what to do because I've never seen anybody talk about I've never seen it depicted. And then in the case of like, it's not rape. Well, what would I even do to like, rectify this situation, like, there's a lot of pieces that are not actually properly explained. And media is, like, the number one tool for most people to learn how to actually maneuver in this world. And so if our media pieces aren't actually being like, “Hey, you know what, that thing this person did to you, it counts as sexual assault, you can do X, Y, and Z,” how would you know? And so I think it's important to like actually learn, like what sexual assault can look like in the different ways that it can show up. And also be aware of the different ways you can react to it. Like some people, of course, understand the feelings and emotions and everything that plays into it. And they recognize the trauma that may come from it. Other people are like, I don't know, this situation, just, like, didn't sit right. But it's not a big deal, yada, yada, yada. It can look so different for so many different people. And you can't expect it to fit into this, like, perfect checklist of this happened, that happened. They did this, they did that. And now we're going to solve the problem this way. Because also, not everybody wants to problem-solve the same way. Like what you might define is justice for something may not be the way I define justice. So how can you say that handling a sexual assault situation in one way is going to work for different people?
6:15 Veronica: You can't. I realized this entire time I am nodding my head as if our listeners could see because, um, yes to all of that. Absolutely. It is-- Nothing is the same for anyone except that people respond. And for me, I think it's so harmful for folks, because who have experienced sexual harm, because people think, “Oh, well, afterward, they didn't do X, Y, and Z.” And it's kind of like, well, whose expectation is that people have every right to have their own experience and their own response, whatever that looks like. So yes, absolutely. head nodding to every single thing you said. Which also leads us perfectly into our next question, which is, I know that when friends and family learn that someone they care about has experienced sexual violence, dating violence, or stalking, they often want someone to be held accountable, or as you said, they want justice. And that is so valid for the people that we care about. And, it is massively complex and complicated to pursue reporting processes. And it's also deeply, deeply personal. And we know this to either report or not, and also to hold space for the empowerment and choice of survivors. So what is your take on all of that? When folks are like “this happened, I care about you. And now you need to go do this thing?” Yeah.
7:51 Javay: The first thing I always tell people is, it's not up to you, like, you may think that you have the perfect way to fix it. This is not a situation that you are in control of, nor do you need to fix. Majority of the time when someone's coming to you and telling you something to happen is because they need to let it out. They need to vent it, they need to just let someone else know, because they may be carrying it without anyone knowing. And it's not that they're telling you because they're like, “Please solve this problem for me.” They're telling you because they're like, “This happened. It's been weighing on me, and I just need to share it.” And so in that, in the sense of when someone comes to you, it's like, you just need to listen, listen to what they're telling you and read between the lines, if they're telling you like, “This happened, and I don't know how to handle the situation, I don't know who I should talk to about it.” That might be them opening the door to be like, hey, do you know how to proceed, who to report this to or if they're just like this happened, and I just need to let it out. Because it's, like, been eating at me. Just listen, you have to do what they want. It is their situation, it is their experience. It is their potential trauma they are having to work through. You can't be the one to solve that problem. And it's human nature to want to solve problems. We're always just like, “Oh, you got a problem. Here's some advice. Here's some unsolicited advice. Here's my way that I work through this.” When it comes to sexual harm and sexual assault, that's not effective, because you may be telling them to do something that requires them to relive this experience and like recount the events that happened or to take steps to report it. And they're like, the other person wasn't even aware because they didn't even understand the full magnitude of the situation. There's a lot of pieces so I would tell people: listen to what the person wants. And then if, after listening, you're still like, “I don't really know what you're expecting for me,” just kindly, gently ask them like, “Okay, what would-- what can I do for you next? Like do you want me to go with you somewhere to work through this? Do you want me to reach out to some people like, what can I do to support you in this moment?” Don't assume that you know how to support them. Ask them how they would like to be supported. And if you're not comfortable asking them, do friend-like things, do family-like things, like, give them something to eat, give them a glass of water. Don't think that you have to become, like, their knight in shining armor in this situation. Be their friend, be their family member, console them, comfort them, support them in a way that is realistic, because also, it's not realistic to just like, drop everything and be like, “I'm going to the police or I am starting a campaign. And we're going to blast this person on social media,” like, let them choose how they want to proceed. And until you know how they want to do that, just be there for them as you would if they were going through a breakup. Or if they had just heard some really bad news from someone else in the family, or things of that nature. Just be there for them. And also respect their boundaries if they seem to be a little withdrawn. And they're like, I just kind of want some space, give them that space. Don't push what you feel they need on to them, let them tell you what they need. and go from there.
10:47 Veronica: I love that. Yes, it is not a time to project one's own wants and needs onto someone else. Because I think a lot of people, fundamentally, what we're talking about here is: choice has been taken. So how do we provide a space to reestablish choice and empowerment? And that looks different for everybody. It's not, “Well, I know what I would do.” Well, that's great. You think you might know what you would do? Probably not. And when someone's in that space, it is I love what you said, do a friend thing, do a family thing. Just be there. It's so powerful. And I think that means so much for folks. Because it can feel very lonely. And you know, even if someone is sharing with someone else what's happened, and the other person has experienced the same thing, it can still be very different. It's such a unique, everyone has their own unique experience. And it is all extremely valid. And you started to touch on something that I hear students sometimes say that-- or not just students, people in every part of my life that, if someone shares with them that they have experienced any kind of sexual harm, how to respond in the moment because I think sometimes and this is so human, and I get it, people don't want to say the, quote unquote, wrong thing. Or they don't want to, you know, come across as uncaring or isolating or anything like that. Or maybe they want to be really careful to not project their own stuff onto someone. So what do you think are some really affirming and helpful ways to respond if someone shares with someone in their life, or they disclose that this is happening or happened to them?
12:29 Javay: First thing, start off by saying, “I, one, see you in this situation. Also, I believe you and I am here to support you. And thank you for trusting to share this with me. I am here to be whatever you need in this moment.” And then ask them, always check in and ask like, “Can I give you a hug? Would you like any like physical comfort right now in this moment?” Um, always checking in about any type of physical contact with anyone, seeing if there's anything immediate in that moment. Like, “Can I get you a glass of water? Can I, like, do you want to go for a ride and get out of the house? Do you just want to get some fresh air?” Trying to give them something that brings a little bit of comfort or peace in that moment to them and then after some time, like seeing where they are emotional-wise, like, where they are in the process. Like if they're feeling like kind of shut down and kind of just like, I don't know, like if you know that person well enough you should be like, “Okay, you're seeming a little XYZ, maybe I can get you ice cream, or maybe I can get you some Jimmy John's whatever it is that like brings them comfort. Think about that person and their comfort levels. And what it is that you know brings them comfort. And then once they're in a little bit of a better place actually be like, “What can I do for you next? Like what would you like? Would you like to just like, go and get your mind off of it and go see a movie at Grafton? Would you like to, I don't know, go to UREC and play some basketball, get out some energy? Would you like to set up an appointment with the counseling center? I can totally do that for you. Like, what is it that you would like to do next?” If they're like, “I don't know,” let them be in that. I don't know space, they don't have to have an answer right now. Let it just be what it is. Just be present in that moment with them and take their listen to their lead. Let them decide the next steps but you just check in, actually communicate with them. Ask them questions. Don't just sit there and like this bubble of silence unless they choose that want silence and like I just want you to stay here with me. But if they're like they share this and you just go quiet it kind of just creates a little bit more anxiety in the situation because, like, I just told you this thing you're like nonreactive. There's no words like there's nothing, like, respond. That is like the first thing like actually responding to them because someone just shared something. And we all know what it's like to say something, like, we all have those moments when we send a text and we're like, oh my god, I didn't get a reply. It's even worse in-person. So if they say something, if they are sharing something with you verbally, respond. Whether you if you don't have the words you don't know how to proceed, just say, “Thank you for sharing with me. Can I give you a hug? Can I hold you? What can I do to support you?” Those should be like your main three questions if you don't know what else to say, stick with those, but actually say something.
15:13 Veronica: Yes, and I love how you touched on, especially asking, “Can I do this?” Like, can-- because a lot of us do want to go to physical touch and comfort. And I love how you really pointed out asking that because, for some folks, it's going to be a “No, I don't want that” or, “Yes, please.” And the “What can I do for you, I'm here for you.” Because then I think that even takes it to the next step that after that initial moment of disclosure, I'm thinking of, you know, a friend discloses to another friend, and then that can open up the door for, “Okay, if we're out and about, and I'm starting to feel triggered. This is what I can tell you what I need in the moment,” or, “Hey, if we're out and I start, you know, X, Y, and Z happens, or if I'm responding this way, this is what I need from you, as my friend, I need for you to be like, we need to go to the bathroom, or we need to just get out of here or do something.” Because I think that opens the door up for that caring and compassion to then go out into life. It goes out from that one moment to “Okay, we're still going out, we're still doing things. But we have an open dialogue about how to continue to support our friends and loved ones who have experienced this,” when we're just not doing normal life things, you know, because we don't always exist in these one-on-one moments where we can really talk. But sometimes things happen in public and it can be a, I need some I need my best friend here to recognize something's going on, I might be feeling triggered by something. And if they notice that maybe I've gone silent or whatever, they can say, “All right, let's just go get some fresh air do something.” So I think that really opens up to, what you said, the door to take it outside of that initial moment as well. And I think what you said too, setting the-- letting someone set their boundaries, those are very, very important. And also, again, just asking, What do you need from me? I'm here, I can help and I'm willing to help, or if and if I don't know, I will find a way, you know, reaching out to resources. And I want to encourage our listeners, because there's a term “secondary survivor.” So sometimes, that's a term that can be used for friends of survivors, partners of survivors, family members, that also means that sometimes we need help as the friends and loved ones of our friends and loved ones who have experienced this. So I say that to say don't be afraid to reach out and learn more and get your own resources as well, because sexual violence affects everyone. And I think of it sometimes as a rock hitting a window shield. And it's a yes, the rock has hit the windows shield, and there's this, you know, the part where it hit, but then the pieces all go out. And that's where I think sexual violence affects entire communities-- that we, in some way, shape, or form, are all experiencing this. So also, how do we support as a community, our friends and loved ones who are experiencing this as well. So just kind of my little, I think it's a metaphor, if you will. Um, I wanted to ask, as we start to wrap up, what are some other things you would like to share that you have come across in your studies and your work about things you've seen that were like, yes, that is exactly how we support our survivors. Or maybe we should rethink that. And that may not be the best way we want to support survivors.
18:43 Javay: The biggest thing that comes up is, when looking at sexual violence, assault, and harm in relationships, because that is where things get a little murky. And so I like to remind people, one, not everyone recognizes everything the same. Like, we all come from different cultures, different backgrounds, things are very different to us, the way we're raised, some things look normal, and to others. It's like whoa, wait, what that happened? So you need to be mindful of the differences in our lived experiences and how they may show up. And also recognize that, the majority of time when something happens within a relationship, you are like if someone comes to you after experiencing something within their relationship, most of the time, most people are not automatically on the side of like, “Oh, let's get out of this. They're the worst, I’m done.” Most people are still at a place where they're like, “I love them. Like, this is a thing that we can work through.” So you need to be understanding of what all is impacting that person's decision around it, it's not that it was just like, “It happened I can immediately shut down.” No, once we invest in people and relationships, it is very hard to just pull out immediately. There needs to be this sense of gentleness and like yes, tough love is a thing but like you need to understand that your friend, your loved one has been in this relationship with this person for X amount of months, years, who knows, and you can't expect them to just immediately turn off all feelings, they will still be there. And even if you're like, but why? It's true, it's a fact of the matter. And so you need to be understanding of that and recognize that with your friends, and instead of giving them a hard time or like ultimatums, like really understand where they are in the moment, what they're feeling around the situation and that person, because that can-- that plays into it, like people aren't just going to be like, I'm done. Not most people, most people are like, I, we can work through this, we can figure it out. So that is like my biggest thing is recognizing that relationships create a whole different, like, ballgame, if you will around it. And we need to be mindful of it.
20:50 Veronica: Oh, absolutely. It's... Feelings complicate things and feelings are complicated. And there's a reason why people do the things they do. And I love that sometimes we don't always know why and to support folks, we don't need to know why. We just have to be willing and available and there to support and offer, you know, what we can in the moment. So I think that's great. Well, I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to chat today. And just-- I am so, just thrilled to have a colleague such as yourself in the field, and I'm so excited for you to finish up in your Master's degree, and then go on to whatever other fabulous things you're going to be doing, which will be fabulous. We have just enjoyed having you with us this semester. And just thank you so much. This has just been really great.
21:46 Javay: Of course. Thank you!
[Musical Interlude]
21:52 Jordan: Amazing conversation, Veronica. I'm curious, how much did you enjoy talking to a colleague like Javay about this?
22:01 Veronica: I really enjoyed it. I think having conversations like this just can be so helpful in sustaining ourselves as we do this kind of work. And one of the things I particularly enjoyed is knowing that Javay has a different academic background than I do. You know, she is getting her Master's in Human Sexuality. I studied health promotion and fitness. And yet, you can embark on this kind of work coming from a variety of different places. So I also really enjoyed that as well.
22:32 Jordan: Yeah, absolutely. I liked how Javay highlighted that there are different ways for sexual assault to essentially happen or kind of show up. And I agree that what you all were talking about that without the discussion about the ways harm and trauma can happen, people may not know how to advocate for themselves to talk about it or find support because it doesn't fit those boxes that they may have learned of this is this is what rape is, this is what assault is, this is x, y, z and, and that was even a component my own personal experience. So I'm really, I was really happy to hear that you address that in the conversation. And I also like how Javay gave a lot of tips and advice. And it was really as simple as sometimes just asking someone, how can I help? Or what do you need? You know, asking those questions can be so powerful, because it gives that person a sense of control and empowerment to give that back to them like you had said, rather than sometimes, I think, immediately jumping to try to fix it. And that may be what we want to do as friends or people that do care about people that have been the situation. But really like, like it was said, everyone's experience is different. And as much as your intent may be good, the impact is what matters most.
23:44 Veronica: Absolutely. I mean, we are helpers by nature, that is a very human condition. And I love that about us as humans, and yet, not every situation-- that's not appropriate for every situation. So I think sometimes when we go to that immediately, we also can remind ourselves just to kind of back off and hold some space for what someone needs. And if someone in the past has gone to the fix-it mentality. Don't beat yourself up over it, have self-compassion. That's what we do as humans. And once you know better you can do better for others.
24:22 Jordan: Yeah, so well said. Well, Dukes, we will have all of the ways that you can follow and support Javay in the episode description, as well as resources for those that do want to learn more about how to support others. And next week we'll be doing our last episode of the year for this Well Dukes podcast and it will be featuring two JMU students talking about perfectionism and really how it shows up in a role in our well being. So as always, remember, be well, Dukes.