THUNDERBOLTS review

Welcome to level seven, the Thunderbolts Asterix movie review. Welcome to level seven, a podcast about Marvel's agents of shield and the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It's a magical place. Hello, everyone. I'm Ben. Ben, Avery. Over here on my left is Samantha. How are you doing, Samantha? I am well. How are you? I'm doing good. And together, we are welcome to level seven, and we are ready to talk about thunderbolts asterisk because it's part of the title. And and now we know what it stands for.

And I have thoughts about that. I don't wanna spoil it. I I wanna talk about it in the spoilers because it is a spoiler. Of course, it's been all over the news. Well, I mean, the day after the movie came out, and it wasn't just in the news. The day after the movie came out, Marvel itself spoiled it. Yeah. Like, what are you thinking? You're, like, trying to build up this whole, like, mystique about the the asterisk. What is it gonna

mean? And and then, hey, we're just gonna say it outright for people who haven't made it to the theater yet. That's it's dirty pool, man. Not cool. So anyway, yeah. So we're gonna do our definite The beginning of this podcast is gonna be definitely spoiler free. We'll play the spoiler Oregon, and we'll get into in-depth discussion about the movie and its themes and some of the things with the characters and their character arcs and stuff.

But this I I just wanna start off our spoiler filled conversation or spoiler free conversation by saying I really enjoyed myself in this movie. I truly had an enjoyable time at the theater watching this movie, and it's one of the best Marvel things of the year. Yes. I it feels like it's a return to form. I have to say one of the best because Daredevil Born Again has been fantastic. That that was great. It was good, good stuff.

Recently, I was on YouTube and I came across this one video, and there was this guy, he was saying, oh, the MCU is terrible. They're they're they're producing nothing but crap now, blah blah blah blah blah blah. And and the comments, people were talking about how terrible it was, and and then they brought up Daredevil. Oh, Daredevil, it's it's it's not the same anymore. Blah blah blah. And I'm like, yeah. It's ten years down the road, but it's still

really good quality. Yeah. It's I I think people just complain sometimes these days just to get attention. And maybe people really don't like it. And and maybe it is that whole what do they call it? Superhero fatigue or whatever, where the people who used to enjoy that stuff just aren't. And it's just not giving the them what it used to give them. I get it. That's fine. But I will say that between Dare Devil Worn Again and Thunderbolts, it's good stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if I'll see a return to form because there was, first of all, there was some rather bland and not super exciting Marvel stuff happening, let's say, pre Endgame. You know, and that's kind of the mark, the demarcation point. You have everything from before endgame and everything after endgame. Yeah. And. After endgame. Yeah, it did feel. A little bit meandering and it did feel like it didn't have purpose or drive to it, and it still somewhat feels that way.

But before endgame, there was always this kind of push toward we're going toward Thanos, going toward Thanos, going toward Thanos. There's the there's this the gems. We're going towards this. We have this insight. And and getting there, there was some fantastic movies getting there. After endgame. I wouldn't say there was there there wasn't many fantastic movies.

There just weren't. Yeah. But there still was some fun stuff and I enjoyed the movies that have come but this movie felt it did feel like a return in some ways. It did feel like a return. So Yeah. I remember Shang Chi was a really oh, it's it's still one of the best movies in the MCU, and that was the first film after Endgame. And then, not long after that, things went downhill very quickly. Yeah. I mean, you have Black Widow.

Black Widow. You had, you know, Amanda and the Wasp stuff, and you had, The pandemic. Sony verse stuff going on. Yeah. And the change of the guard at Disney and, the pandemic and the, the. King dynasty that was hanging everything and on Jonathan Majors and that switched up and. Yeah. There's there's a lot going against the writers strike. There's a lot going against the MCU. But the biggest thing really was for me just, okay, they're making okay movies now. They're making some okay movies. Oh,

Black Panther, Wakanda, Forever. That was pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. That was pretty good. Oh. But Yeah. But no real standouts where you're just like, oh my gosh. What did I just see? I can't believe this. You know, that kind of thing. Shang Chi still stands out in my head. No. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. And that is a highlight of not just post Endgame, but that's a highlight of the MCU in general for for sure. For sure.

But And I'm shocked that they haven't really done much with that franchise since because that was a huge hit. That's the problem with the way they've built out the MCU, though, is because you can't do I can't do the Avengers every year. Yeah.

And so the Avengers, what was helped with the Avengers was they would do like, okay, here's your Captain America movie, here's your Thor movie, here's your iron man movie here's one more rando and then and now we'll do a avengers movie and now here's here's this this this this avengers here's this this this avengers and and they didn't have any anchor points in the midst of all this. Now they did have a get a Spiderman. If it was a far from home. No way home. Spiderman no way home. Yeah. Oh

yeah. No Way Home. Oh yeah. But that one was you know building on a cast that that was an ensemble cast and that's and that's what we have here with Thunderbolts. I think that's the biggest thing is it's an ensemble cast. It's definitely not your heavy hitters as far as the popular characters. But it's an ensemble piece. There's a bunch of characters. The the one problem is because they're minor characters, you may not have seen what they were in if you're not a die hard.

You know? So you may not understand why is this guy look why does this guy look like Captain America? Wait wait a minute. I thought I thought the Falcon was fact Captain America now. And and you have this guy? Like, what's going on? Like, if you're not a diehard fan who's really into all of it and watching the TV or the Disney plus stuff, I could see possibly being confused. Yeah. And with Ghost, I keep thinking Ant Man and the Wasp was so long ago. It was.

And there It was. What a weird callback. Yeah. Yeah. And then you have, Taskmaster from from Black Widow, and you again, if you didn't see Black Widow, you don't know why that character has any importance at all. Yeah. If you didn't see Black Widow, you wouldn't you may not understand Elena or Alexi either. Right. Right. Yeah. Or Val. Or no. No. Or actually well, Val showed up in several different places. She's

been in a couple. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, there's a lot actually a lot of tie ins to Black Widow. This this almost in some ways is a sequel to Black Widow more than any any other thing, because of Red Guardian, because of Yeah. But this is a team up movie and this is what team up movies do well. You bring these characters, you throw them in the mix, you let them play off each other. And and that really worked too. I enjoyed

the way that that worked out. But the biggest thing I enjoyed about this movie was there's actually heart behind it. And I would say that's the big difference between Yes. Between Thunderbolts and Suicide Squad. To me, a big difference is first of all, PG 13. Yeah. The r. But, but I really felt like there was heart. Like, genuine genuine heart. And it said something. Well, I feel like these aren't specifically villains. I felt they were more like anti heroes.

Yeah. No, they they weren't villains. Well, they kind of were villain ish. But but you're right I mean they're they're not just anti heroes they're you know black widow is an assassin and all of them come together because they're all connected because they're all doing things that aren't the most heroic whether it's because they're doing things like Elena on the assassin front or they're

a limo driver. You know? It's like there there's all these different aspects of what's going on in their lives that make this, you know, they're unlikely heroes. Yeah. Unlikely heroes. And and so I liked it. I I liked that a lot. And and the new character, I I really liked him. That's, Bill Pullman's son. Yeah. Louis Pullman. I was I was like, why why does he look at first, I thought maybe I was like, why is Spider

Man in this movie? And then I realized, no. This is a different actor because he looks a lot like like oh my gosh. I could see that. I could see that Tom Holland is Yeah. He looks a lot like Tom Holland. They could play brothers. They look so much alike. And then I was like then I found out he was Lewis Pullman, Bill Pullman's son. So he's, you know, the president's son from from, Independence Day. Yeah. Bill Pullman played the president in that movie. Yeah. But even

he's he's had a career. So that's the that's the one thing I was like, okay. So how did he get this? You know? And and, yeah, there's that whole Nepo baby thing going on for sure. But he has had a career and he he's made a a name for himself. And and this movie, I feel like, it he did a great job. And and his character again, I'm not gonna say too much about his character, but there was heart there. Yeah. Yeah. And then you get Lewis Pullman next to Wyatt Russell,

who's also a Nippo baby. Yeah. I didn't even thought about that. Yeah. And I was like, man, this is, like, really Hollywood the next generation, it feels like. But, I mean, I don't wanna call them I hate calling them Nepo babies because that feels like such a, like, kind of a dis, but The whole Nepo baby thing is very interesting to me because I, you know, look at my family.

I am doing a lot of the same things with my life that my dad did with his and my kids are doing a lot of the same things as they're you know going through college and getting ready for their life. They're doing a lot of the same things that I did going to the same school that I went to for college. Getting ready you know it just it's interesting and it also makes sense you know and so your your nepo baby or whatever yeah sure the idea behind it exists the name itself is it diminishes a

little bit. The the person that you're talking about for sure. But at the same time it totally makes sense. You grow up in that world. You see your parents doing this thing and they're passionate about this thing and if they love this thing they're passing that love on to the child or passing on a passion that maybe doesn't isn't love or maybe

passing on a duty. You know it's not just it's not just a passion or a love but it can be something that that kids will do because they feel like they have to because that's what my dad did and so that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna I'm gonna work in the coal mine you know or I'm gonna I don't want to be a poet like you dad I wanna I wanna be I wanna be a miner.

Which is one of my favorite Monty Python sketches where you have the the son who doesn't want to be a poet he wants to work in the mines. But yeah. So it it makes sense. But, yeah, I had thought about the the Kurt Russell and, Wyatt Russell connection as well with the famous dads. Yeah. Okay. So that's kind of my initial thoughts. I'm assuming based on things that I've read from you, you also enjoyed this movie. I really enjoyed this movie. Like I said,

it felt like a return to form. I mean, it's not as great as Endgame and and Infinity Wars, but it feels more on par with, a lot of the movies we saw before Endgame. So it it feels like Feige is back in in in control and, and, the whole of phase five pre or or the mass majority of phase five preceding felt like it like Feige had somehow lost power. Because I know Feige is a huge fan, which I think it what helps make this whole thing work just because he loves movie making. He loves the MCU.

He just wanna makes everything, he wants to make sure everything flows together really well. Oh, speaking of of which of phase five, this is, it was announced. This is the last movie for phase five. It didn't even feel like a phase. That's the that's the big thing for me is just this. Again, I use the word, directionless, I think, meandering. I just feel like this hasn't been bringing us anywhere. But here's the best part about this movie is while yes, it does build on stuff from the past.

I feel like the movie itself actually works as a movie. Like, there's a beginning, a middle, and an end. And while yes it might be confusing to have another guy in a Captain America suit carrying a shield and people are making fun of him that he's like I was Captain America officially you know but I feel like it was his own thing. Now it was definitely, especially you get to post credits, teasing what's coming. But the movie itself felt like it could stand by itself and just be what it

is by itself. And that's that's that was also a little bit refreshing. Yes. Yes. Okay. So out of I mean, I I'm guessing that most people who are listening to us right now have probably seen the movie so I think we can get into spoilers pretty soon here but I would ask you out of how many fake shields out of five would you give this movie? Four and a quarter. Wow. And we've and it's been so long since I've seen the

movie. I have actually given deep thought into what my rating is, so I'm gonna go with four and a quarter. I'm going with four. Okay. I'm going with four. It's and if you're if you're putting them on, you know, up or down, you know, like, top half, lower half, this is a top half movie Yes. In the MCU. Obviously I give it a thumb up if if you're doing a binary thumbs up thumbs down but yeah I really enjoyed it. Yeah I had a lot of fun.

So we're gonna play the spoiler organ we're gonna talk a little bit about specifics in this movie and if you've not seen the movie then please listen at your own risk and here comes the spoiler organ. All right I thought maybe Samantha one of the best ways we could go through kind of the movie is kind of talk about the different characters. With or we could go through the

quadrant. The quadrant that I use when I'm, like, coming up with formatting a review to write it out was, to talk about characters, plot, themes, and style. And then I added a fifth, which makes it not a quadrant anymore, but, which is enjoyment. And so, we're we're we could go either way, Samantha. Do you have a preference? I think we'd we'd be more thorough with character, but it's gonna take longer. Well, let's let's let's go through the characters then and and kinda talk about their arcs

as well as we do so. So the main character of this movie, I would argue, the main character is Yelena. Would you agree? I agree. Okay. I think Not just her main character. She's now, like, the team leader. She's captain America. She's And And but this is this is her movie in a lot of ways. This movie starts with her. It kinda ends with her. And a lot of the movie hinges on her character development and her arc.

And at the very least red guardian's character arc is really to support hers and you know because he is you know part of her adoptive family in a way from when they were spies in The United States while she was a child. But but this is her movie and this is her kind of figuring out who is she who who am I in in in this new world and you know we've seen her now in Black widow. We've seen her in Hawkeye where she played a a pretty big part there.

We've seen how things went for her with the blip When she was dusted and came back five years later and when she came back five years later, her her her sister was gone because Natasha sacrificed herself to stop Thanos. And and she's just trying to figure out who she is, and she's working for Valentina. She's she's working for Elaine Benes, and and the whole team basically comes together because they're working for Elaine. But, yeah. What do you think about her character

arc here then? Like, the things they do with her character arc where she's she's trying to get past her mistakes, get past her past, and figure out who she's supposed to be. What is she supposed to do? And Red Guardian wants to encourage her to be a hero. Do more hero stuff. And but in but what she's doing is in the shadows and she's killing lots of people.

And it's making her depressed. Yeah. Because she has downtime between assignments, and she's she's sitting in her home or where wherever she is, and she's I think malaise is a good word for it. She's she says, I I'm scrolling on my phone thinking about my mistakes, basically. Yeah. And that's the other nice thing is a lot of the character arcs are kind of wrapped up in this idea of kind of overcoming the past and not letting the past define your future. You know, you can't do anything about it.

It's there. But what are you gonna do with it and how are you gonna move forward? And a lot of the people in this movie, that is what they are dealing with. Actually, probably all of them. I mean, I I feel like they really did a good job of tying that theme into John Walker, Captain America's thing. Bob Sentry's character. Ghost kind of, I guess, but not maybe not as much.

And and Red Guardian, he's there as comic relief, but he's also there to bring he's the wise comic relief who kind of bumbles into wisdom as he's talking to, Yelena. So and and I appreciate what they did with that theme. I appreciate what they're, you know, talking about mental health, basically. Yeah. And and addiction. And, it's it was it was good. It was good. And so Yelena, I mean, she's on a journey here. And, yeah, she's moving from loner, depressed loner to, purpose filled leader.

Yeah. And oh my gosh. It's Florence Pugh is just I mean, every time I see her in this role, she just well, any role just about I mean, she just knocks it out of the park. I've yet to see a bad performance from her in anything I've seen her in. I'm sure there's something out there where it's like, but I haven't seen it yet. I mean, whether it's playing Amy in Little Women or her role in Dune two, I mean I mean, or here in the MCU? I mean, it's just

she does such a great job. And Elena is she's she would has been given a lot of freedom to improvise with this character too, and she has made Elena to be very funny and very sentimental. Yeah. I I'm gonna use this word again probably or this compound word anyway. But, heartfelt. Her performance was heartfelt. Yes. And I I really did feel like I was watching an actor do the acting thing, but bringing to life, emotions and and change.

Yeah. And we also get to visit her past where she does her first red room murder. She didn't do the actual killing, but she led a friend to to be killed. And and she goes back to that over and over again. And it's again, kinda dealing with your past and and you revisit those moments over and over again. And it's good to learn from those kind of things, but it's not good to live there. And it seems like that's kind of what she's doing. Like you said, when she's she's

got that malaise when she's between missions. Well, she's thinking about the mistakes that she made and the horrible things that she did. And then you have Red Guardian help her deal with that. Like, You were a child. You were a child. And that's They should have never done that, but they did. And I like what they did with her. And she's not a character I really

liked that much before. This is probably the turning point for me with her character that actually liked who she was and what she was doing. I liked her back in Hawkeye because there was that whole thing about I'm trying to find Hawkeye. I'm in Lady Hawke's apartment, and, oh, by the way, I made macaroni and cheese. You're sad because you only have one bowl and one spoon. That whole thing. She was funny. She was funny, but I haven't I didn't exactly enjoy the character,

And and this this time I did. So Well, she also had a huge arc in that too, because she she she I don't think she realized that the person that she was sent to kill was her sister's best friend. No. No. Yeah. She the person she was sent to kill was involved in her her sister's death, and, yeah, she did not know. Yeah. But she also didn't know that the person that she blamed in her sister's death didn't want her sister to die either. Right.

Yeah. Again, another situation where a ten minute conversation could solve everything. So we're following her through this movie then. We see her and she goes to a lab and there's all these, like, weird shadow things on the wall, like dust shadows, or it's like, Oh, that's weird. What is that? And. She is getting information. She's blowing things up.

And then she goes on her she goes to talk to Red Guardian and then she goes on her next mission, which takes her to a place where she meets our other characters. So let's talk about Red Guardian, I guess, first and and kinda get him out of the way. I've kinda given you my feelings about he's hilarious. He is so funny, which no surprise there. He's also kind of the heart of the team. He's the one who's like encouraging everyone to be heroic.

You know, we could be heroes and and that kind of thing. Not a lot more not much more than that to him, though. So enjoyable. He brings a lot of levity to the proceedings that wouldn't necessarily be there. And the other characters reactions to him also bring levity to this situation. But he also brings, again, heart to this, especially when he's working and and dealing with with Yelena. I will say that there are some stupid plot points in this movie, and one of them is him as the

limo driver. He just happens to be driving. I shouldn't say just happens to be, but he pushes himself to be able to drive the limo that Valentina and Mel are in as they are talking about nefarious things that they are doing that since he overhears that he tries to call Yelena to say don't go It's too late. So he takes his limo and drives there and and comes after the big battle scene. But Well, I was gonna say there is that that whole coincidence of him being the limo driver for Valentina and,

Mel. Yeah. It I mean, he didn't intentionally become their limo driver to find out this information. They at least gave him a character reason to be there. But the coincidence and and you know how I feel the coincidence. I'm not Only one coincidence per movie or You get you get one. And this is the one, is it not? I guess it's the one. Sure. But use it well.

And I gotta be careful how much I harp on that because I've been doing some writing lately on some time travel things, and, it's it's a bunch of short stories all combined into one longer narrative. I use a lot more than one coincidence in there. So I don't always practice what I preach, but I preach it. But I

agree. I mean, if you having one coincidence maybe, like, in the first act or towards the beginning of the story, that usually that usually that coincidence helps to push the whole story forward. It makes it happen. Yeah. It makes it happen. But I I agree. If you have more than one, then it just becomes kind of an eye rolling situation. Yeah. You can do better. You can do better. Mhmm. So anything else about Red Guardian before we move on to our the rest of our cast?

He was really stuck about the Wheaties box thing. It's funny though because I saw a movie poster walking into the theater that was a Wheaties box, but instead of Wheaties, it said Thunderbolts. And I'm like, what is that? And then they then he's talking about the Wheaties box. I'm like, oh, that's what that is. Yeah. And then there actually is a Wheaties box. And oh, okay. That whole scene where he's trying to get the lady to buy the Wheaties and trying to get her to see him on the box.

Yeah. And I was looking at that at that grocery store. I'm like, okay. Is this a Kroger? I I I know of a few I know of a few grocery stores in the Atlanta area. I'm like, that looks like kind of like a Kroger. They, that the joke could have fallen flat, but it works because it's him. Yeah. And it also works because it is him wanting to be a part of Americana,

you know? And and you have the whole the whole soccer team thing with Yelena when she was a kid and so that that sports you know American sports kind of a thing. It it works but that one walked a line. I didn't feel like it was stupid. The the limo hearing the nefarious plan from our villains because he was driving their limo, that didn't work as well for me. I thought it was silly. Too silly. Is this our first movie where we get, like, a family connection in the Avengers

or an Avengers like team? Think so. Okay. I mean, I know they're not genetically family, but they are Well, They're adopted family, I guess. Wanda and Quicksilver. Oh, that's right. Yes. Okay. They would be. Yes. Okay. So Okay. Yelena goes on this final mission for Valentino. For Valentino and this final mission is to destroy the this evidence stuff in a bunker underground and she goes and she is following Ghost. And her mission is to kill

Ghost. And then John Walker comes as well, and his mission is to kill Yelena. And then Taskmaster shows up, and her mission is to kill John Walker. And Ghost is already there and her mission is to kill Taskmaster. It's silly when you say it out loud, but the plan that Valentina has is send them all down there to kill each other and then kill them all and destroy the rest of the evidence of the secret thing they were working on. And so this is where we get our first moments of them together.

And, of course, it's a superhero situation. So what are they gonna do when they meet? They're gonna fight. And the most shocking thing out of this fight scene is Taskmaster. I mean, they're all using their powers, all doing things, you know, but Taskmaster can mimic anyone's moves and learn their their style and and use their weapons. But Ghost just appears using her fade in powers or, whatever you call that. Phase powers or?

I can't remember what what they call it when they they talk about, like, Shadowcat or Kitty Pryde. But, yeah. She just fades in front of Taskmaster and shoots her in the head. She's done. Yeah. Well, she can't, Taskmaster cannot replicate that kind of ability. And it happened too fast for her to react to it. Yeah. Yeah. And but she was in other scenes in trailers. Later scenes in the movie, I don't know if they digitally put her into those scenes or digitally took her out of those scenes.

And maybe that was part of reshoots as we there's too much going on. Let's get Taskmaster out of here. If we removed her from the movie, we wouldn't even notice that she was gone because I don't feel her missing in any of those scenes. But she was in those scenes in the trailer, and now she's dead.

Well, this isn't the first time that we've seen what we thought one thing would be in a trailer and have the movie be completely different or have shots or scenes in a trailer that are missing from the movie. So I'm not surprised. That's why I'm asking, like, is this something where they filmed it this way and took her out after the fact, but it was too

late because she was already in trailers? Or was it to trick you into thinking that she was in those scenes, and then when when she dies, it's, even more of a shock? I would have to go back and check it, but I'm I would not be surprised if she was, added in the trailer Because that would be these these days, that would be easy to do. Well, and removing her would also be I mean, not necessarily easy to do because it's multiple scenes or whatever. But, yeah.

So Taskmaster her character arc is she shows up tries to kill people and dies. Done. Also there's a guy in a surgical gown who just shows up in the middle of their fight. Hi. I'm Bob. Yeah. So there's four of them down there. And then all of a sudden, they're all gonna die. And they know they're all gonna die because there's a incinerating bomb that's gonna go off and incinerate everything. It's getting really hot and there's a timer so they know they're gonna die

if they can't get out of there. So they have to work together to get out of there. And that leads me to the second dumb moment in this movie. I get it. They created a scenario where they went down and the elevator doesn't work anymore. But when they do their we're gonna push back to back and use our the pressure of our legs to take all four of us up this gigantic tall elevator shaft. I'm watching this and just thinking okay this is dumb. This is

I get it. They need to get out of some way But movie writers, change the scenario. Don't have an elevator shaft. I don't care what you do, but this is bad because it just these are normal people. They don't know that Bob has superpowers. Bob doesn't know know that Bob has superpowers. Exactly. And, yes, John Walker, he has super soldier serum. I thought they were gonna do something where he, like, climbs the side and he kind of drags them all up with him or something.

And maybe Ghost becomes intangible so she doesn't like have so much weight on him or something like that. But no they're doing the thing where they're pushing up against the you know, pressure pressure on their backs and pressure on their feet. And if one of them, just one of them slips, they're done. They're dead. Well, that that certainly does create the tension in the scene. It

That I did like. Yeah. Because I and I was I kept thinking during the entire scene, what are they gonna do when they finally get to the the the next floor? Exactly. How are they gonna get out of that? And and then they get up to the next floor and they're like, oh, we didn't think this far. Yeah. They had only a lampshade on exactly what you're saying. And I thought that was actually pretty good. Yeah. It was it was a step too

far in the silliness direction for me. But but at the same time, I would like to see I wish I missed the show Mythbusters because they would cover. Is it possible to get up 20 feet doing this? So I do believe it is possible because I've seen people do it, but not 20 feet. I wouldn't say I'd seen that, but I have seen people do back to back two people going up, like, the a hallway in a dorm room. Or in in a dormitory rather, not in the room, but in the hallway in the dormitory. So I I

is it possible? I think so. Or maybe 50 feet. Maybe it was 50 feet, something like that. Well, this elevator, I don't know. It was it was high. It was, yeah, it was really high. They were gonna die if they fell. Yeah. Except for Bob and maybe John Walker. Maybe. There were three super soldiers in this movie. Yeah. And two of them had serums. Yeah. That was that was kinda funny too. So all of them had serum. Serum. It was Hydra. Oh, Hydra. That's good. Mine was communist recreation.

John Walker took the serum too? Yeah. He did. Yeah. So there are three super soldiers. Yeah. But, yeah. John had the serum, and winter soldier, I guess, had serum as well, didn't he? Yeah. Yeah. But his hydra serum. Yeah. So okay. So let's talk about John Walker. His arc in this movie is I'm not gonna use the word that they use to describe him, but he's a jerk. And at the end of the movie, he's a

little bit less of a jerk. And he also had to reveal to everyone that he's not the family man that thought he was because his family left him, and he's been alone. And I felt bad for him. Yeah. And, again, heart. There was a heartfelt character arc here. And he's not a perfect guy, and he doesn't get the the resolution he gets is not that all of a sudden his family comes back to him, but he does get an opportunity to actually be a hero and do some good

and save people. When when the big bad comes, he's saving people. And he finds a new family, a found family. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They hate him until they don't. Yeah. Yeah. And he has some good moments. He has some good lines. We have some good moments during the final fight sequence where they're saving people from all the buildings falling and stuff. Like, there's some some good stuff there for him. And Yeah. It was again, heartfelt. It was heartfelt. Yeah. And probably the the third strongest

character arc in the movie for me. The strongest being Elena, second strongest being Bob, and and third strongest being John. Yeah. Again, I wish I could go back and rewatch these movies, but it's harder to do that these days, unlike before. And it's not just a movie for him. Like, you're you're talking about a whole series. But, yeah, going back series for him. Yeah. Just going back to a Falcon and and

the Winter Soldier. Yeah. So John Walker and then you have Ghost who, honestly, I don't remember much from her character arc. I don't remember her character arc. I'm I remember her being there. Yeah. And that's kind of it. Yeah. She was there, and and then she helps them more. So yeah. And then of course there's winter soldier who so they come up out of the elevator and Valentina is like oh we gotta kill them.

So she sends people after them and then she's like oh don't kill them Bob's with them don't kill them. And so it's non lethal on on the army's part on on Valentina's people's part but they had the big long fight. Bob is the one who he kind of almost sacrifices himself so they can get away. He lets himself get shot but he does not die because he's not just Bob anymore. He is part of the failed experiments but it's not a failure. Not when it comes to Bob.

They succeeded with him and so they capture Bob and take him to New York to the Avengers Tower and Yelena and John Walker and Ghost escape. They get picked up by Red Guardian in his limo because he heard what was going to happen. And then we have a a chase scene and they get rescued by Winter Soldier. And they're not just Senator Bucky Barnes. Yeah. But they're not just rescued by him. They're arrested by him. He captures them. And Does he have the power to arrest me?

Well, he has the power to tie them up. Yeah. And it seems like the president legislative branch, not the executive branch. So and they say, hey. We gotta convince you to be a good guy. Be a good guy with us. Come on. Let's be good guys. And finally they convince him to go and help Bob so they go to the Avengers Tower and they have a plan and there's another fight sequence but it shut down And the blonde hair on Bob.

Well, I'll get in there. But No. No. The costume works in the sense that it was a comic book accurate portrayal of that character. You look good. He looks like a comic book version where they put him in the costume. But Blonde hair. No. No. Just I could handle the costume, but the hair, no. No. He his natural hair color looks fine. Well, it's funny because, you know, they're they're hung up on the hair. You know? Like, he's it's like, I don't know about this color.

I feel like you're talking a little too much about the hair. But Well, I think that was the point was the hair color was just all wrong for him. Well, but, I mean, they call him the golden guardian or whatever and, like, they have these all these nicknames for him, but he's the sentry. And, again, this is a character from the comics. I've talked about it a little bit before.

But the whole point that character in the comics is he was the most powerful hero in the Marvel Universe but the most powerful villain was also part of him And so when he finally defeated the void in the comics, they made it so the entire Marvel universe forgot him and rewrote their own history by taking him out of it. But he was friends with Peter Parker, and Peter Parker actually got along with the police and with J. Jonah Jameson

because he was working with Century. And the x men weren't rejected by humanity because of the work that they did with the Century. And the fantastic four did things with him. And and then because of his battle with the void, they had to make it so that the Marvel universe completely forgot him, and he forgot who he was himself. And that was the only way they could save the world was to do that. So what you're saying is there there is a situation where we can get him and Tom Holland on the

screen together. Definitely. And that would be really confusing until Tom puts the mask on. Unless they keep that blonde hair. It's true. Maybe that's why they wanted the blonde hair. No. I think it was so they could make jokes about the hair. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they they come and they fight. They they confront Valentina, but they end up fighting him because he's on her side and he's doing what she asks him to do. And there is no contest

at all. He doesn't wanna kill them, but he fights them and, like, they don't have a chance against him. He is so powerful. But the problem is he also carries his own demons. And that's the void. And because of the godlike powers that he has, the unresolved issues that he has rise to the top the top and give us the void. And so that's one of the things I

like about this. You have, like, the big giant action set piece at the end, but you have the resolution of this big giant action set piece comes from the character arc of Bob. And yes, basically, they win the day by giving him a great big hug. Okay. Is it cheesy? You bet. But is it good? You bet. It is. Is giving someone who's depressed a really great big hug true to life? It may not be, you know, it may not be the perfect solution, but,

you know, it doesn't hurt. It doesn't solve all his problems, but what it does help with that the with his problems is they're coming to him and saying you're not alone. Yeah. You're not alone. And they have to come to that realization themselves. And then they come to him and that you are not alone. We are here. We're here with you. We're standing with you. We're standing for you. And again, it's heartfelt. Is it cheesy? Yes. But it's the right kind of cheese.

And it's it's cheese that says something good. And that says, you know, yeah. You're right, Samantha. You're not gonna solve everyone's problems with a hug. But it's a start, and and he's in a better place in the post credit. So yeah. So they defeat him by hugging him. They defeat the void, because he's I I love it. Like, he goes and he's just punching the void. And as he's punching the void, he's becoming the void, you know? And and then they come and they gather around

him. They fight to get to him, and they're fighting for him. And, man, I like it. I like it a lot. Yeah. I also liked that, it seemed like that he was sort of dusting people. And Elena figures out that it's not exactly a dusting. It's it's, he's taking them into their worst moments, and she figures that if she runs towards the explosion and not run away that she can find she can fix the issue. Yeah. Yeah. She She's the brains of the operation. It's a leap of faith.

100% leap of faith because she's trusting that the thing that happened to her before when she touched his hand or whatever is actually what's happening. But she steps in and she's in her worst moment. And okay. So now what are we gonna do? Let's let's confront this. And and she works through it. And and now she finds his worst moments, and they're fighting through his worst moments. And there's funniness to it. There's it's definitely funny. The whole, you know, he used to be a sign spinner.

And, he's using the sign to to hit them and stuff. And, you know, it's funny. But, but again, it's it's heartfelt. And this is how they find out about John Walker's worst day, you know, and this is how they they find out, you know, they they find the the void through this where they find like some of what Bob's worst moments were were when he was the void and he killed people. And, yeah. I I appreciated what they were trying to do and say

with all of this. Yeah. I I just that final act, I really love it because it was so different, but it was well executed compared to other avenger movies. Yeah I really liked it. The one bad thing is this means we had two marvel movies in a row that end by helping the the bad guy confront his inner demons and and the bad guy is not actually a bad guy. You know, so you have the red hulk, that whole situation with the the flower petals.

Yeah. And and that but and and I feel like I like this one better. I I I did like this one better. But that the last two Marvel movies, this one and and, Captain America Brave New World, a lot of similarities. There's a lot of similarities in just the style of the movie and the resolution of the movie. So when it ends, they go to confront Valentina. And they step through the canvas or whatever, the tarp, because she she stepped away. And what she stepped away

into was a press conference. And they follow her, and now they're in a press conference. And she says, these are my new Avengers. And that's what the actual Ben. Ben. Mhmm. I have an issue with the name New Avengers. Tell me. I don't like it. I think Thunderbolts is a is a better name for the team. It is. And New Avengers sounds like they're just copying the name of the old Avengers or the original Avengers. I don't wanna call them old. That's the point, I think.

Yeah. But it's it's it doesn't sound nearly as cool as thunderbolts. No. I did like the origin of the thunderbolts name, though. Yeah. I did like that. Selena's, soccer team. Soccer team. Yeah. Sponsored by I forget who. I really like that. They should have they should have put their foot down and say, no. We're we are the Thunderbolts. Maybe we'll see that in the future. I hope so.

But Well, I mean, they're definitely setting up a rivalry between the actual Avengers that was getting kick started in the Captain America movie Yeah. And the new Avengers with a z. I felt called out because some of you may know one of my book series that I have it's called time flies with a z and the reason for the z was just to set it apart to make it so it was easier to trademark or whatever. And. Yeah, I stand by it. Okay. I stand by it. But I did feel a little called out.

What can I say? It was the nineties, right? They don't have that excuse. And yet everything in the nineties was changing that s to a z. Or throwing in an x with, you know, extreme no e. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they are the new Avengers. They are actually in Avengers Tower now. They have Bob on their team who doesn't do much for them, but he does do the dishes. Yeah. I was wondering okay. So is he just avoiding being a superhero at this point because he's afraid of the void coming back?

I think he really can't remember how to use his powers. Oh, okay. Yeah. I I I really think that's what they're setting up there is he he can't remember. And it's good too because, I mean, he's if he is century yeah. There's a little void thing. But but even just from a story perspective, he's basically the most powerful hero of all. Like, he's he's just so he you know, they they talk about how he

has the power. He's he's more powerful than the avengers, and there is an actual god on the avengers, you know, like, And so, I they have to depower him, and they'll have to find a good way to bring back his powers, let him use his powers a little bit, and then figure out how do we not nullify our entire movie by having him here just like Captain Marvel, really. Yeah. So I wonder how he would, stand up against, Captain Marvel because she's pretty powerful too.

I think the intention is he's more powerful. He's more powerful. Okay. I could be wrong, and it really doesn't matter too much if which one of them is more powerful. They're they're really both of them very powerful, and we'll just have to wait and see. Maybe we'll just do some sort of thing where everyone's swapping powers around and they've already done that once. So When was that? I can't Well, I'll just not remember.

Marvels. Oh. When Yeah. When the three of them kept, having their powers bounce around from between each other Okay. Is actually a really nice conceit that they use to get around the fact that she's so powerful. Is is dealing with added power, extra power, different powers, and I I like that. That was a good conceit that they used there. Yeah. So, Valentina, she makes it all work. She She's a spin doctor for sure. She is. She is. There is one more character who is a

not even an unsung hero. She's a sung hero but Mel. Yeah. Mel. And and that was a good character arc there too where she just gets pushed into doing the right thing because she realizes I wanna make the world a better place, but the way we're doing this isn't working well. And Bucky pushes her to do well, to do that do well, do right. And and she does. And, and helps. And because she helps, they are able to do what they need to do to win the day. Without her,

they would not have won. They would not have been able to do what they did. So She was the secret weapon. She was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, Mel, good on you. Yeah. So we've talked about characters. We've talked about plots. We've talked about theme. Stunts. I wanna mention the stunts. Okay. So in previous MCU movies, it was very CGI heavy. And with this movie, the production production team decided that they were going to do the stunts as practical as possible.

I mean, there was some CGI in this movie, but, like, Florence Pugh jumping off of that building, she actually did it. And I think she's in the Guinness Book of World Records now for jump for the woman who's jumped from the tallest or second tallest building. So that was Florence Pugh who actually did that? Yeah. She and a, one one of her stunt doubles both did it. Yeah. She she's gone into interviews saying, yeah. I have zero fear of heights.

I could not do it. I could I would not be able to get to the edge of that building on the roof. Oh, wow. Yeah. And she had to convince Feige to let her do it too because the insurance company would not cover her. Everyone wants to be Tom Cruise. Yeah. She can be Tom Cruise if she wants to. I'll I'll stay in the movie theater. I'll just I'll just stay in the audience. And, the, building blowing up in the beginning of the movie where she's walking away, I

think she's holding a a gerbil. Hamster. And she's on the phone, and she's like, hold on one second. And she turns around, explosion. That really happened. That was not CGI. Yeah. A lot of these effects were they were practical, and I have to give it up to the producers for making that choice because I I I like CGI. I think CGI has made huge strides in the past thirty years, but I I still like practical effects as

much as possible. And I understand there are just some situations where it's it's better to use the CGI, but if you can use practically, use practical. Yeah. That's cool. I did not realize that at all. Mhmm. Alright. Well, I think I think we should wrap this one up. Do you have any final words? I would like to thank our Patreon patrons, Blessed Cheesemaker, Jeffrey, Andrew, Tazzle, and Edwin. Thank you all so very much. And I would

also like to say thank you guys. We appreciate you guys, and thank you for, you know, putting up with our sporadic schedule sometimes. And but yeah. Yeah. So join us. Welcome to level seven. You can go to patreon.com/ welcome to level seven. Get early access to episodes. That's pretty much it right now as far as, like, your your perks. But the other thing is you're supporting the show and you are definitely helping out with, with the bills as they say. Yeah. It is very, very much appreciated.

Yeah. I would like to say also I am really sorry Samantha for all those times when, we were scheduling things and I was you know I I was doing my other job I was doing my other job and you know just thinking about other superheroes you know you know you know what other superheroes I've been thinking about right Samantha? I'll give you a hint. Cucumber. Cucumber. Cucumber. Cucumber. Thanks for listening to Welcome to Level seven. You've heard from us, and we would love

to hear from you. You can email us at studioaviary@gmail.com and send us a written message. Or if you wanna hear your voice on the podcast, you can send a voice recording. Or you can connect with us by liking our Facebook page, facebook.com/welcometolevelseven. The seven is spelled out. Or you can leave a message directly on our website, welcometolevel7.com.

The seven is spelled out. I'd also like to invite you to join our Patreon page where you can get early access to uncut episodes and support the making of this podcast. Just go to patreon.com/welcometolevelseven. The seven is spelled out. And if you have, thank you. We appreciate it so much. The music for this episode is The Light Fantastic by JS Earls. Find him where you stream your music. Until next time, thanks for listening, and godspeed.

Alright. Well, I think that what we could talk about for our post credit is just upcoming superhero movies, and not not cucumber ones. But, Yeah. I totally thought moving into June that we had Superman and Fantastic Four, but rather than June, it is gonna be July. July is gonna be the month for superheroes this year where we have Superman and Fantastic Four. So so excited about both of those. Samantha, I don't know. Are you excited about about the Superman? Do you want to see that? Yeah.

I will try to go see it. I I am excited. Yeah. I'm I'm Nick Nicholas Holt's playing Lex Luthor. I mean, that's excellent casting in my eyes. I'm not too familiar with the actor who's playing Clark Kent, Superman. Though I have an issue is that he kind of sorta reminds me of Nathan Fillion a little bit, and Nathan Fillion is also in this movie. Yeah. But they do not look this is not a Tom Holland,

Bill Pullman's son situation. You will not you won't have any troubles telling them apart because Nathan Fillion looks very un Nathan Fillion like. Yeah. It's just this actor and Nathan, they they have similar noses and face structure, and it's just every time I see this guy, I'm like, is that Nathan? No. That's that's that's this new guy. So, yeah, I have to look at him twice to be sure.

So it's it's just I think that this is so cool that that of course, I thought it was June, but but in July, you have these two big, you know, the big DC and the really, Superman is the primary character that put DC on the map as far as, like, action comics. And Yeah. You know, and so you have Superman who who kind of was the kick start for for DC, and then you have Fantastic Four who they were kind of the what kick started the the superhero age of Marvel Comics.

And and and Fantastic Four is coming out two weeks later. So, yeah, in July, you also have Jurassic World and you have Madea's destination wedding and the remake of I know what you did last summer and the big one of course Superman you think about these three movies in the same breath really Superman Fantastic Four Happy Gilmore two.

That's that's our July everyone like we I can't wait Samantha to sit down with hopefully you and Stewart to talk about Happy Gilmore two because that is complete surprise to me. I had no idea that that was a thing so I will watch it I will. I will too. But yeah was not expecting you to see that when I was looking on the list to see, oh, when is Superman actually oh, first of all, I'm wrong about the month. And second of all, happy Gilmore too.

Yeah. We have casting connection between Thunderbolts and, Superman. Wendell Pierce, who played another senator, he's playing Perry White in this movie in in the Superman movie. Yeah. Frank Riller's in this movie too? Okay. Also in September is, the final Downton Abbey movie. Spinal Tap two. September. September. I did not know that there was another Downton Abbey movie. Yeah. It's it they actually call it Downton Abbey, the grand finale. We'll see about that.

Well, I haven't I haven't seen the last movie. Pam and I went and saw the first movie in the theater, but then we never got around to watching the last well, the second one they did. The second one's really cute. It's it's just, there's a moment of inversion between the upstairs and downstairs. You get to see that. It's it's just really sweet. If you like the series, you'll like the movie,

this the second movie. So yeah. But a big big month in July, and June is, not as exciting as I thought it was gonna be. Yeah. I was just looking at it, and I'm like, there's not really much here I would wanna go see, which is fine because I'm gonna be very busy in the next month. So You won't have time to see it anyway. Yeah. Alright. Well, everyone, thanks so much for listening. Samantha, thank you for joining me again. And, we still need to get together and talk about Daredevil

season finale. So that is I have my notes right here ready to go. I cannot stay up late to talk about it, but I'm ready to go. Alright. To everyone else who's listening right now, thank you so much for spending time with us. We appreciate you, and godspeed.