Brett Harkness Returns: Your Wedding Photography Questions Answered

Welcome to the first one. Photography.

Unveil.

Martin.

Hey everyone, welcome back to this week's show. I've welcomed back Mr. Brett Harkness this week, who I'm really pleased you've managed to find time for me, Brett, to do a part two because The first one was hugely popular and I got quite a lot of messages from people actually raving about it. So yeah.

Mark, less to hear. Martin, always time. Always time, mate. We could probably do ten parts, but let's let's see what we didn't cover and what we you know, what what we what we could delve into a little bit deeper, maybe.

Yeah, let's do that. But um I but I think before we get started though, um I've got a little bone to pick with you, mate. Uh after the last uh podcast, I I went out and bought a bloody cannon 50 mil 1.2.

Yeah.

So you cost me a fortune after that, but that I've been episode.

Saved you a lifetime of terror.

But you know what? I have to admit, um, I I think I can see what you were talking about. That lens just has. Just something about it. I don't I I don't even know how to describe it. The the

I didn't bridal party. Yeah.

Yeah. And they just look so nice. Um you know the the the skin wasn't over sharp. radiant in it. Um the background was just creamy, creamy blur. Um the the only thing the and I might be a bit of nitpicking here'cause the client's never gonna notice. Because it's a Canon lens, the colours are rendering ever so slightly different and I'm struggling to make it match up perfectly. But my wife's looked at it and she says, Look, they're never gonna notice it's the tiny

Your eyes button.

Oh mate, i i uh I dunno, all week I've been editing this gallery and I've just been staring at the screen so long that you know, after a while

That's raw, that's raw for you. Come on, I've got you a fifteen. Let's crack on with the JPEGs.

Come on.

Come on, that's the next

Right, okay. Because one of the things we we did was we asked um people in your group and mine to come up with some questions. And uh yeah, one of the questions actually we might the because that's a good segue into it. One of the questions was actually from Andy Andy Dawson and said, You said in the last episode you shoot JPEG. How do you find editing and do you not miss the I think this was for me actually. Do you not miss the flexibility of raw files?

I I don't miss the flexibility in raw files'cause I've never done it.

Have a show raw.

Nep well maybe once or twice. Um Nothing more than that. I let let's let's let's let's start at the beginning with the with the JPEG thing. Okay. Okay.

Let's do it. Let's do it.

I can't even remember. There was a one Canon 1D S was my first digital camera. Okay, I waited until the full frame. digital camera came out because I was used to shooting them with likers. So looking through the, you know, the the this tiny viewfinders on all these cameras that weren't full frames, it was driving me nuts. So I didn't go digital until the Canon 1 DS came out.

'Cause I always do like how the the JPEGs look on the back of the camera, but of course when you get it back into post you put the raws in and everything looks different, doesn't it?

It does. I mean commercially, yes, I I use my my medium format cameras and I've had to shoot raw and I shoot TIFFs and things like that. But weddings, um Family shoots, documentary sessions, stuff like that. It it's it's JPEG for me.

Um the do you never sort of um you know like what what do you do then, for example, if you fluff the shot or do you just never I never joke.

Well we all do. But but the beauty now, mate, is that is that right, I'm not I'm not a shutter crazy, crazy flicker shutter guy, you know, I do I still take my time. Th there'll be another frame. There'll be another frame, the client never knows, they never miss what they don't see, as long as what they see is what they expect to see and what you know is what happened.

So can I as uh I'm assuming then that as you shoot during the day you are changing your white balance on the go.'Cause y you don't shoot auto white balance like me.

No, I I shoot Kelvin. Um pretty much throughout the day I'm changing I'm changing my Kelvin. Uh I I sometimes I'm I'm on auto white balance to be fair. I I found the later generation of cameras slightly better. on the auto white balance settings on on the Canon cameras. Uh the earlier generation it was always quite warm. Canon's always been warm. We've always been red. We've always had red

So you're still when when you get them into Lightroom, you're still doing a little bit of tweaking, just not loads because you've Basically got it right in camera.

Yeah.

Most of the time. Yeah. Okay. That uh'cause I think for me, I I guess nowadays with mirrorless it's easier. I remember, you know, I started in the D S L R days, so I didn't go back as far as you with film and stuff. But back in the D S L R days where you still had to sort of like Take a few test shots, make sure you're in the right ballpark for your exposure and stuff. Whereas now with mirrorless, I guess you can see your exposure, can't you? Um.

Drives me nuts man. I mean I've got an R three I'm just writing about it on Uh

Why would that drive you nose?

dri to see my what drives me more nuts about maybe this is part three, right? But when I look through the viewfinder and that and that image comes up or I I see especially during the dancing and it and it's slow the shutter's slowing down and it's showing me my exposure. I th I don't want it to I I don't want to s I know my exposure. I'm looking at my dial, my meter. You know that thing that's got a zero in the middle and it's got plus two on one side and plus

I would hazard a guess that those photographers who have started since Mirrorless Genuinely have no idea what that is. Um you know, I remember those days because I had to rely on that. But yeah, I reckon if I asked some newer photographers, I say newer, like let's say in the last five years, that anyone who started in the last five years what that was, they'd be like, I have no idea. Because they can see it.

And at the end of the day, i you know, are we are we uh are we picking hairs here? Yes, w you know, we uh we we We probably are. I mean, i uh uh it's the moment capturing that moment, whether you know what your camera's doing or not, if you n if you press that button at the right time, surely that's what it's all about. Um

We're picking hairs. I think I think you just sort of like You you reach a certain dare I say age word.

Don't you dare say it.

And there there are certain I don't mind with technology so much, but there are certain things. I don't like to change anymore. It's like, no, I don't want that d don't change that'cause that just like boggles me. Um so yeah, it's probably that.

It's it's probably why I didn't jump on the mirrorless wagon straight away, because I I didn't find the need and and to be fair, since using the R three again, that's probably a a discussion for another day, but I'm not overly impressed. Um I just Yeah, really. Um and it might be because I've been shooting a lot of medium format recently and I'm and I've got that in my brain and on my computer and it's everywhere. I'm working on the files and they're so gorgeous it hurts.

Right.

An SLR is about four.

informa. Yeah. I I thought you meant like the technology, not th but you mean the files themselves that you you're not

Just the way that they look. Obviously technology is better. My my my Pentax medium format camera, Martin, it it's like somebody closing a door when when you press that shutter. But that's why I love it. You know, the the sensor in it is probably still an amazing sensor. There's no doubt about it. Technology's just going so fast and I think they're all after three hundred frames a second and eye eye tracking and no le give us a camera that

I d I don't actually disagree with you, but I don't think that it would have the same impact when they stand up there with their glitzy presentations, you know, to say we've made the raw files better. You know, they they they like to say, oh, this one does like thirty-two frames a second now.

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Yeah, it's like I don't know, even sports photographers, I'm like Do you really need more than thirty frames a second? I mean, you know, for weddings I'd I'd turn mine down. Even ten is too fast now. Do you remember the days when oh god we sound like a couple of old guys talking now? Like you know, like a an average Three or four so

Yeah.

It was like three or four frames a second and then the top of the line was like eight set frames and ten frames was like oh my god, you had to go like flagship camera to get ten frames a second.

I had an old Canon camera used to used to put a film back under it, uh which had two hundred two hundred exposure rolls in it. sports guys used to use

And you could get those.

Oh yeah, we can't anymore. Wow. But um it was a specific film back you could whack in underneath and then that's what allowed the sports guys to take more than one frame every five minutes.

So so I guess from what you said then as well, when the bride's walking down the aisle you only take two shots, you are one of those um f because there's two camps of photographers in in my world. There's the ones who I'm delivering five hundred, if I can take five hundred and five photos, that's great. There's the other camp which is like I take five thousand and I deliver ten percent of that. Uh are you in the first camp or the second camp?

Pro well I don't know. It it I think I heard one of your other guys say it depends on the what did he what was the word he used? The vibe at the wedding or something he said? If I'm shooting a three day wedding in south of France, you know, eight hundred people, then I'm I'm gonna shoot more, aren't I? If I'm if I'm shooting a a small wedding in the Cotswolds with twenty people, there's I'm gonna shoot less. So I

Even though you've got an R three, you don't even use the eye focus or anything like that.

Oh it's horrendous. Oh my god. It it I tr I put it on the other day. No, my eye focus. Jeez. Ansladams were turning his grave. Um

Ha ha.

No, I have my eyes too focused.

I don't I don't rely on my eyes anymore. My eyes are naked.

Uh there's certain aspects of a camera that I I will use. Eye focus is not one of them. If I can't focus on something that's moving, I I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing, or not the way I do it anyway. No. Eye focus. No, forget that.

Okay, then what about what about silent shutter? Surely you like that.

Uh I do like it and I t I use it for the church only and then I put it back because I need to hear that noise. I need I need it in my brain and and sometimes the client needs to hear it as well, to be fair. Um it's nice for them to hear that reassuring sound of a shutter.

I actu yeah, I I don't use it f I use silent shutter pretty much all day other than I think occasionally for flash I'll turn it on. Um but even though the A one now does silent in flash mode. But I tell you what the the the only time I try and remember to turn it back off and go to mechanical if I'm shooting models because it really throws models if you have silent shutter on because they don't know. They listen for that that click, don't they? And I didn't know that.

Ha ha.

So that was a learning lesson for me.

Yeah. I remember Vicar saying to me a few a few a few years ago, Do you not have one of those quiet ones? he said, because even the you know, uh the even the Nikons were were were quieter back then than the than the cannons.

No, no, no Nikons have always been the loudest.

Well I don't know. I I maybe my sister at that time had had an icon and maybe because he was at the back of the church I couldn't hear him. That's maybe why. I don't know, you always you always hear the shutter in your head, don't you? So

Well, when I was shooting Nikon and I was on d D seven hundred and then I had the D six ten and then the D I had all of them. And it was uh the D seven hundred was the worst. It was frankly embarrassing in a church. You know, every time that shutter came down, it was embarrassing how loud it was. It was like I'd I'd I'd hope a passing motorbike would drown it out.

It got to the point where I was doing Who Who Wants to be a Millionaire and I was coughing every time I took a picture, uh, just to try and hide the fact. If I could get away with a few frames in the church, then happy days. But to be fair, I I've shot a few weddings recently on the R3 It it's okay. Does it make me feel all gooey? No, not at all. Does it is it can I get away with a bit more when I shouldn't be? Yes, maybe I can, but I'll stick with what I'm what I'm used to for now.

Yeah. Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. Right. Oh let let's go on to another question then. I think that was a g that that was a very simple question. And we and we met uh talked about all sorts again, which is what I love about our conversations.

No. The expectation is there regardless because people have booked you for a reason, so they're expecting something. And and that's a little bit different from the norm, maybe. And I and every photographer would would say that about themselves. Um The time it that's given is the factor in higher end weddings because there isn't any period. So the expectation from myself is higher because I've got less time to produce in, if that makes sense.

I'm sure you do I I think what I uh I remember and I know that other people say the same thing that back when I was m at the more budget end of the market, that was actually harder and expectations were higher than perhaps the you know the middle end of the you know middle to top a upper

I think as we as we discussed last time, you know, the the phone has developed so much that lower end, middle end, high end people have pictures now and they have pictures of themselves. Whereas maybe just the higher end people in the past, you know, twenty, thirty years ago that don't they only experience that on on a on a daily basis. So No, I I think it's completely reverse. The expectation from the client is more because they may be paid more and you've got to give it

Okay, cool. All right. Um next question from Pete. Uh if you're a one man band at a wedding, how do you do off camera flash?

It's a good question. Um on camera flash to me Right. Now I know it's the thing these days. Big shadows, blast'em in the face, paparazzi stylie.

Face full of flash. Face full of flash.

Everybody everybody wants that. I'm still a bit of a purist when it comes to my shadows and stuff and I still like a directional shadow rather than a bang in your face shadow. On camera Flash has its moments for sure, and I'm not gonna deny it. I I shot a party in Manchester the other week and I took'em outside at the end, the couple and we did some

I've g I've got one in the cupboard, mate. I've not used it in years, but I've got one. Yeah.

I've probably over the years I've probably kept I've probably kept Gary Fong in speed boats with the amount of plastic accessories that I bought for for my speedlights. All of which were particularly crap. Not Gary Fong's stuff by the way. They just didn't work. It didn't give that softness that I then refined into my weddings. I found the flashbender thing. If it's just me...

I I use very, very similar technique. The only difference is I use it's actually a it's actually an Insta360 technique stick. So it it's slightly longer than that, but it a little bit telescopic. So it allows me to go a little bit further out and I use direct I just use pure flash. I don't I've never tried using the flashbender on it actually. I do like it. Maybe I should get it out of the cupboard.

It's try it. So off camera that that way, holding it yourself, works directionally and it works with a s with a slight bounce off that little tiny ceiling that the flashbender creates. It works both ways. Ultimately in my head. You know, my guy stood three feet to my left, out of harm's way, holding a small softbox with an Elinchrom quadra in it. Still, still that's my go to.

Yeah.

So you've got to give in to that and you know, and any flash is better than no flash. Any flash is better than a dance floor full of bright purple people. So especially that.

Yeah. Yeah, that's true actually. I actually quite like sometimes the messiness of the dance floor photos. You know, everything's not perfectly composed'cause you it reflective of of what's happening. You know, the dancing is messy and a bit dirty, but yeah.

Yeah, and you know, there are patches of darkness and things like that that that the way they maybe with off camera too much you you that is dissipated, you know, that the the patches of the darkness. Whereas the you know, s off camera can sometimes flood it too much.

Yeah. The one thing I have done a couple of times, and I'll keep playing with it, of once I've got my dancing photos like I normally do, I've actually been trialing the 51.2 um just with no flash. Just to sort of like stand round the edges and pick people off, see what it looks like. I don't hate it, but it's not the the the the sort of s normal style I'm used to. So I'm still delivering them. No one's said anything so far.

I once tried high speed dance flash at a wedding. That's a bit of a mind bender, let me tell you. Shooting a w shooting a one point two with flash and and obviously that's shut speedy because it's so intermittent during the whatever the lighting, whatever the lighting conditions are. So it pushes it pushes it into the realms of high speed synchronism. But shooting flash on a dance floor at one point two, it's it's madness.

Hopefully more than the usual ten minutes that we get normally. Or I get, should I say.

I very rarely I mean it it aga again that just comes with uh you know, different styles of weddings, doesn't it? But Particularly my Jewish weddings. It's it's off the chart.

I love it. I love it.

Yeah. There's people being thrown up with chandeliers. It's it's crazy. It's it's awesome. Love it. Love it.

Oh, I'd love to experience that. Yeah. Okay. Right. Okay. So next one. I and I love this one. To chimp or not to chimp.

Who invented that term? No, never. Who asked who asked the question? It was uh

Andy. Andy asked that question.

And it was about his son I think.

That's right,'cause he says his son his son chimps.

You chimp, you lose You know, so When I d when I teach photographers on my training, I get'em to turn their screens off. We used to put tape over their screens, right? So they couldn't even turn it they couldn't even press play. That messed people were jumping off cliffs like lemmings, let me tell you. If you I just know uh'cause you know,'cause I come from that old background where we couldn't chimp.

That's so true. I th I think now with mirrorless, uh there's much less need to chimp. Um you know, like you used to take a shot and you'd have to

If I'm using flash and I've got to check you know I've got to check that exposure out, then I'm gonna have a look and I'm gonna have a quick look obviously.

Yeah, but that's not chimping, is it? Well I think it's when, you know, like for y using the dance floor example, you're sort of walking around looking at the back of the camera rather than shooting. Um, you know, what's in front of you? I completely agree with you. You need to be present and looking out for those emotions rather than just, did I get that? Did I get that?

And never ever ever delete in camera. That that is a fool. It's a foolish thing to do. One of these days you're gonna hit that format button. No, mate.

I

Are you sure these this podcast's not just for you?

Uh huh.

Ha ha ha ha.

Oh no, I

No, because and I and I'll tell you why. B I I'll tell you why. Because you you get back to the to the normality of the conditions of your studio or your office or wherever it is that you you know, are you developing stuff and I've I've picked out some nuggets when I've when I've and I've I might have had a quick look or as I was having a coffee or a quick break and I've gone, oh that's that's wasn't very good. But they stay, they stay there. And I'll get back and I'll go

Okay, I I'll I'll explain a little bit more. I don't delete any photos with people in or anything like that. it is purely the test shots that I delete. Like so for example I'll go into a room and I think oh do you know, is this the better exposure or is that the better exposure? Can I handhold it to a thirtieth'cause it's a bit dark, those are the shots I'll delete. Or if I what I con commonly do, and it's a real

Yeah. I'll give it up. I'll give it up.

Got some credibility back.

Ha ha ha.

Sorry, sorry to interrupt, but you know, but chimping Yeah, go on. Just if it's again, th this is why it's good to talk about stuff'cause there is no right or wrong way to do things. Yeah, yeah. But my take is that if you're not looking through that camera Ah at the subject, interacting with them, taking pictures them what are you doing there? You know, chimp chimp when you're having your sani in the car or whatever.

Are you asking me?

Well it it it's an all it's a question for your for your followers and it's a question for you as well.

Okay. I use both. Just However, it feels at the at the at the time I can sort of mix and match, really. I would say I'm trying to think. I don't know actually. I I was trying to think what percentage of each. I actually don't know. Not a clue. I don't even think consciously think about whether I use the eyepiece or not.

And again it's not a right or wrong there's no right or wrong answer to this. I I just find when I'm looking through the viewfinder, I'm I'm tunneled into what I see through that viewfinder. When I'm looking through the screen there's so many things that that I'm maybe taking my attention away. Oh, you know and uh one of my assistants shoots generally if you if your sist your um listeners can't see, but I'm holding the camera sort of

Right?

But you've got to put you've got to put the camera lower than that. Yeah. Yeah. So you you put your camera to your belly button, right? And that's how he that's where he was sh that's where he was shooting'cause his screen was rotated upwards. So I noticed all the w you know, people's chins and stuff. It I'm like, Oh mate, we had a need to lift that camera up.

Yeah, I think I I'm just thinking back then I actually did the action. I think for me I do lift it up, so I don't think I've got the same problem. I I naturally just lift it up to my eye height, but then I I don't have it to my eye. Um but I also find that when I do The having the mirrorless and the the fact it all comes through the EVF, it makes it uh especially with the twisty screen, it makes it far easier for me to get different heights. So like go high, go.

Yeah, especially down low. I I you know, it takes me three hours to get off the floor these days. Um I've So so getting the camera de getting the camera down there with a screen is is a lovely thing to be able to do. Yeah. I do I do I do like.

I I never subscribed to you know like back in the uh back in the old days, but you know like where pro cameras Like the 1DX and stuff, they never had a twisty screen. And the argument back then was always real professionals wouldn't use a flippy screen. And I was always like, give me a bloody flippy screen. I want to be able to flip it. And I'm so glad now people have seen sanity.

Even my medium format, you know, and that's pushing ten years old now, ha has a f has a flip out screen, but it only flips out one way, it doesn't rotate, it just flips out, which is pointless.

Yeah.

So, I think it's good.

Okay, right. Let's see what else we've got here. Uh oh, I guess this is similar. Um When when someone says to you, Can you get some candid picks? Do you try and contrive some candid shots? And that was from Glenn. Glenn.

Glenn, yeah. It's it's a good one because I uh I've been at a lot of a lot of weddings and I've been at a lot of weddings where I I've I've helped as well. So, you know, I assist my assistant sometimes and sometimes we do it as a bit of a trade off thing. And his weddings were you know maybe a little bit easygoing and stuff and it they're not as maybe hectic as as mine can be. I've always found candidness and documentary to be a massive part of what I do. Even if it doesn't happen.

I I think that I understand and and I completely agree with when it comes to the couple, but what about for for guests and the general rest of the wedding? Would you try it looks like the the question is like, would you try and like create some situations to get those candid moments out. That's the way I'm interpreting the question anyway.

I generally I could maybe put on one hand the amount of weddings where I've you know I've gone to somebody and they've gone, no no no no, what are you doing, don't come near me with that. a lot of my weddings we have a we have a an hour gap. So we have an hour Let's take a wedding I had last year outside of London, big marquee wedding, Jewish wedding, outside ceremony. They they do the thing.

So whilst you're waiting for the groups to form and you're you're doing the the candid documentary stuff in between, who's rounding up the groups?

It depends how big the wedding is, depends how many uh group shots I've got, whether I use my assistant for that or whether I send them off. to do what it should be doing and that's taking pictures. So generally I'll get the group together, right? And if I see something materializing off camera, like like that kid on the on the pond. I'll say to somebody in the group, just can you just sort his tie out, please? And it gives me that few seconds to turn around, take take the shot.

Yeah, but that that's the reason why I asked, because my group shots, they're always like, you know, I as much as people try and assign someone to help me round up the groups, nine times out of ten it's useless. It's just easier if I do it myself.

It's like herding cats and deaf cats.

Not just that, it's that person they s that person they've sent off to get someone is usually not the right sort of personality to sort of like, no, put your drink down, mate, I don't care. Come on. It's time for your group shot. They you know, they oh well I've told him and I've told her and out of the eight people, one person turns up and you're like, for God's sake.

I've not had an issue doing that myself. I think I think when Christy was was my other you know, was was the other shooter twelve years ago. She knew who people were, man. It was off the charts. She wouldn't she wouldn't know Aunt Doris. I'm like, Aunt who's Aunt Doris? She I she I'm like, how do you know that was And Doris? I I I don't know what it is. It's a woman thing. They just listen and and they

Mm.

Between the moments, between the moments, because that's where the magic happens. Don't stop taking pictures. I want that couple to walk into that wedding breakfast. I do my thing, I go outside and I'm absolutely buzzing and shattered and knackered and dehydrated and sweating, but I know I've got it most there in the camera.

Don't stop.

Yeah, I know if Cam dit stuff.

That that's great advice. Okay. Right. Uh I guess this is follow-on one is is kind of uh uh just the next logical s question, I guess. What's your secret source? To being in the right place at the right time for your stunning shots. So guess this isn't r relating to portraits because obviously that's different. And that's from Jed.

I mean you've done something often enough, y you anticipate it, don't you? You you read people, y you you know, I know if a a car arrives at the church, which side am I gonna be on? W I I I have a quick look which side's she on, and which side she getting out from? Where's the driver from hell gonna stand in f right in front of my face and block everything?

Yeah, I think you're making me feel lazier. It sounds like you're way m higher energy at a wedding than me. I mean don't get me wrong, no one's ever complained that they've not got enough shots, but it just sounds like you just

Clients don't thank me. for the great pictures at a wedding'cause they don't yet know, do they? They thank me for rolling around in the mud. They thank me for climbing up over that fence. They thank me for being in you know, top of the church, the back of the church, the front of the church, lying down on the aisle. You know, I once did a shot of Brian and Grimm walking through um

I think that's very true. People... You've left people feeling like you went the extra mile and they love that. I that is so true. Yeah. Because the the photos they they're expecting to be great anyway. But I think a lot of people don't realise the commitment sometimes you have to go through to get that photo.'Cause if they see that photo on the website, they wouldn't realise you had to lie in a gutter to get it.

what came out of my camera had voodoo in it. Right? I I I kind of understood where he was coming from. Um it was his w there's certainly no voodoo, but I think I've said to this before, but you get back what you give, Martin. And even if you don't speak, You get back what you give. And if you give the right vibe, the right messages, the right

Yeah.

I I was in Clarid's a few months back and I was shooting the bride on the stairway before she went down to the wedding. And I I just put her in this little bit of light and the stairway and it had like a twisty, turny ha you know the the iron work and I'm shooting through there and I just went, Oh yes, yes and I did and she's like Are you okay? I went, oh yeah, just don't move. You know, and for those few seconds I I just had a right here. and it was much

Do you ever show them? Do you ever show them the back of the camera?

Because that can that can sometimes burst that bubble. Yeah, the last thing you want to do is be off your head on this image and go, Well, there you go. And she goes, Hmm. Yeah, we need to get going. And you're like, Oh my god, that was my finest work So, you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't advise it to be fair. If you've got somebody who's a little bit nervous and a little bit unsure about the way that they look on the camera, then

Yeah.

Yeah. So pick and choose when when you show the client sometimes it can backfire, but generally I I I tend not to. by the expression on my face, tells them what they need to know.

Cool. Uh right, next one. Uh let's try this one. So this is by Lee, Lee Ramsden. Uh I'm really interested in the planning phase for a shoot. Client gives you a brief, how do you create uh I I assume they mean a wedding.

Well I'm not sure if lease meaning weddings or or commercial commercial weddings.

Commercial actually.

Yeah, I mean weddings. There isn't really a brief. Sometimes people particularly in the past, we used to get we used to get clients coming to the studio if you did Martin, but we used to get clients coming to the studio with With little pictures back then it was cut out pictures out of magazines and then it developed into you know scrolling through their phone really like this and we like this and we like

Pinterest.

Yeah, and I'd be sat there going, Oh my god, I can't do it. Um Uh when your weddings develop that happens less.

Because

You're buying into this look anyway. You I don't go and see a bride and she's she you know now and she's not telling me about her dress and the colour scheme and all that stuff. That doesn't even factor. She just assumes that I've been round it long enough. to walk into that environment and go, Yep, I get it.

Oh interesting. Okay. So you should you shoot to their brief first and then oh that's a good idea that. Yeah, I like it.

So I d I deliver what they think they want. They just might know Yeah. They might not know what they want until they're shown it and then they go, bullshit. Let's go for that.

It's the equivalent it's the equivalent of in weddings get the safe shot first and then Yeah. Do something different. Yeah. Okay. Which leads uh neatly on to the next one by To Tobaya. Um I hope I've

To buy to buy a tail, very, very good what he's talking about.

Yeah, that's right. Uh he's excellent. Uh how did you get into commercial photography if you haven't shot any before?

It's like chicken or the egg, isn't it? How do you get into Jewish women?

Yeah.

If you've never shot a Jewish wedding, I use my wedding client base. A lot of my clients have their own businesses, a lot of my clients, you know are agents for footballers, actors, they have you know, they're running hotels. It there's it's all there. It's all there. You know, do they know you for the commercial stuff when they book you for the wedding? No.

That's so simple.

W was right there on a plate for me. Why not use it?

That's such a simple way for anyone who'cause I have spoken to photographers this year who are like, you know,'cause especially with the market being tough and everything, they're thinking need to diversify a bit, maybe, you know, commercial is a way to sort of But you know, get another income stream coming in. Um so I think that's a great idea. It's so simple and simple ideas sometimes are the best.

You know, was it Tim Wallace? Tim Wallace, the the great car guy, uh you know, he does all high end cars and things like that, yachts and and stuff. What did he once say? I'm probably mixing my quotes here, but he once said, you know, don't be good at everything, just be great at one thing. And I think that's quite important. You know, we don't want to water down what we do. And that's why I've got a wedding website and it's a wedding website. And it's just a wedding website. Yeah.

Yeah.

There's no br there' there's there's no there's no engaged couple sitting in bed wanting to look at My pictures of tractors. It's not going to give them much hope for the future. So but once I've done their wedding and once I've shot the family, then I'll go and shoot their tractors because then they're ready for it. Felly mae'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd.

Absolutely.

Then you plant those seeds.

Yeah, I see I see that a lot with people who are starting out and they have everything on the website. They've got commercial, they've got babies, they've got family, they've got weddings and i it's just too much for people to take in. Um yeah.

For the right market, you know.

Exactly, exactly. You've got to have different different brands so you can d target your your ideal customer, whichever they are.'Cause you're right, no no one's gonna book you for a wedding if they're really after a photograph of a tractor and vice versa.

Yeah. And commercial clients don't really want to see wedding stuff. That waters that waters the commercial stuff down in their minds. So you know, so really quite important to to have a a separate commercial site partic from the lifestyle stuff. But the two shall mix. They shall they shall mix at some point. Just keep my part.

Yeah. Cool. Uh last question from people that I've got on the list, unless more came in um before we spoke. Um courses when? And that's in question mark and that's from Andy, Andy Dolson. I thought that was uh Very short question, but I guess it counts as a question.

Now we want it now. And he's been on a few course. He's a good guy, he's a good photographer.

He's a nice guy of name, yeah.

I've got a c I'm just redoing my training site right now. It's it's about to go live next week uh under a slightly different

Oh, nice.

new brand. We do have a lighting course, the first one of its kind being run from my studio in March, and that will just be for four photographers. That'll be a very, very special day. And that's called Lighting for the Soul. So that's gonna be

It's just general studio lighting or is that more honed in on particular area?

Weddings. It's gonna be portraiture, we're gonna be set making a set, it's gonna be beautiful, intricate lighting, that sort of thing. There will be a wedding course. A lot of people have been asking me now. If anybody knows of a venue, throw it at me.

That's been a big thing this year.

Yeah. It has. A lot of conversation I've been having with people has been, you know, it it's it's it's fallen off a cliff. Um I think because of that diversification of what I do. I you know, I'm never s I'm never safe from that. but there's a little bit more protection. It you know, if you just shot babies, if you just shot weddings, if you just did portraits, then it you know, you are going down that corridor, so

You know, yeah.

the reinforcement of your brand has to just be a little bit better than the next guy because that just might be the difference between them going, you know, going for you and not going for you. There is no magic pill. There is no magic answer to why somebody won't book you. You know, I get my fair fair share of of rejections. Ultimately generally for me it it's based on price. So they came to me in the first place because they are attracted to the work.

I I think that's common nowadays. They they send you that email saying love your work blah blah blah blah blah they get the price and that all of a sudden they're like, uh don't like it that much. Um that's it. Um but I think in in in general I I I found this year and I and

You can always tell because there's no name in that first line. Hi. We're getting married on da da da da da. And you know they've sent it to ten other people.

I I think what's also changing as well uh is the market I feel is changing. Um th there's still market saturation of photographers, but I feel like you know, things are changing and if I think as photographers we need to adapt. Um, you know, t y we can't keep doing things the

I think high end isn't cheap.

The same output.

Uh I think high end

Isn't changing.

Okay. Now I wouldn't I wouldn't even classify myself as being in high end. I'm probably if if if high end was, you know, seven to ten on the ladder wrong, I'm probably six and a half, right? And I I don't I I like it. I'll I'll stay there. Okay. And I dip into the nines and the tens sometimes. Yeah, but generally I'm around the sixes, six and a halves. Okay.

Cảm ơn các bạn đã theo dõi.

Where I

Ja.

And that and sometimes I'll get a ten or sometimes I'll get a twelve and then it's off the charts. Right. But I wouldn't want to work in the twelve market every week. I just wouldn't. I I just wouldn't. Okay, so I think you've got to find that rung on the ladder where where you're comfortable being as well. Once you start arguing with people about price, once it and it comes down to price only, they're not they're not yours.

So I think that's this is that you might give the same advice for this, but like for example, I know someone who recently said they they they went to a wedding fair and Every photographer there was offering discounts, you know, discounts on their normal prices. And in that context, I think he felt a lot of pressure that if he sticks to his price. and doesn't do some mad deal that he wouldn't get anything. What what w what would you advise for someone like that who perhaps

You know, I can't see.

To slash his price to compete.

I'm not s I'm not sat here on a throne, but I can't pretend to be sat here on a throne. Who am I to tell people what to charge? You know, I'm nobody You you've got to you've got to pay the bills. You've got to feed the children. So th there's an element of reality in what in what we all do. If you're going to get paid a thousand pounds in your pocket for nine hours' work, let's just think about that. Let's just think about that for a moment because that's if you know, that's pretty good.

Uh yeah, yeah, but at the same time we both know it's not really nine hours work. But I I take your point on that.

Yeah. No, but you know, wha what's what's what's the basic wage for a month these days? Sixteen hundred quid, seventeen hundred quid if after taxes? It's probably around that sort of figure and maybe a bit more. Let's just think about that. When someone's budget is £19.50 and you're charging £28.50, what can we do? Can we talk?

Yeah.

There's all all there's all those ghosted clients that I had over the years. It's you've got to find a you know, a a a place where you're happy to shoot. If you're making money. And y and no matter what the money, then life isn't that bad. Yeah, and that's kind of gotta how you gotta don't sell your soul to the devil for it.

I I actually love the fact that you didn't just sit there and go, you know, stick stick to your price and you know you're worth and all that because it's almost like uh an answer that's too easy'cause you you don't like you said, you don't know their their circumstances. So who are you to sort of tell them? Brett, you've got another question that was asked in my group earlier today. Do you wanna do you wanna read that one?

Sure, this one came in uh from Keith Mulder. I saw that Brett shot his first wedding in Miami in nineteen ninety six. Uh I'm not in the slightest bit jealous of the first.

Nodding furiously.

You know, I I I remember looking through um what's the award thing? Uh fearless stuff, all the fearless stuff, looking at these pictures of bridal parties walking across Times Square and Oh my God, that's just off the charts. Yeah, I'm lucky if I get six minutes with my couple. When how am I supposed to do stuff like that? It it's never gonna happen. And then when I did my first Canadian wedding, it all came through the l this the fog cleared and it all became so apparent. Why?

Comparison.

In i in England, those of you who have not shot in America or Canada. So in England, you know, the wedding is very staggered, there's lots of stages to it. Let's let's let's just say it's getting ready and then it's at a church.

Wow.

Right. I jumped in the limousine with a bridal party and they looked at me and said, Where do you want to go? And I'm like, I've no idea. I don't live here.

Ha ha ha.

Uh and I said, Let's head for town. Which is what we did. And as we were driving, it it pure it it was a four hour photo shoot, Martin. Filled with madness.

Four hours, wow. Uh I I did some last I did some. Um last year I I flew out and helped a friend in New York for three weddings. So I I got a bit of experience in this as well. And the first look makes such a big difference to the wedding. I am Totally on board with first look. In fact, we managed to persuade a couple last week because their timeline was not gonna work to do a first look and it just made the day so much smoother. But yeah, go on, carry on. Four hours, four hours shoot, love it.

Three, four.

Yeah.

Well we know I'm going to car parks, we're looking at a graffiti, we're I put one bride on one wedding in the in the window of a bank. 'Cause it was a hu you know, we the bank staff were helping me lift her up. I mean, you know, this yeah, it was insane. You know, you do that in London, you're gonna end up in the Nick. So it's it's all about the shoot. Now I'm generalising. I'm generalising because that's been my experience. Okay, I've only ever had that experience.

I think they they put far more emphasis on the importance on the photos, so they make the time to do that. Um that that's th the bottom line. Um I mean, uh mine the ones I experienced weren't four hours, but we certainly got a good hour with them easily. And like you said, we'd drive off somewhere, um, you know, we Go to hit some of the landmarks and you're getting these epic shots. And they're so much happier to stand there and take a photo as well. Yeah.

I was apologizing pr profusely. I'm sorry guys, it's only gonna take a minute. She's like that take all the time in the world. We just sent one of the ushers off to get coffee. And I'm like, This is a dream. Have I died? Have I actually died? And this is what I do in heaven. And it wouldn't be a bad thing.

Did you also and I don't know in Canada whether they have the same thing, but the thing that I was amazed at was the evening what we call the evening reception, but I think they they they do cocktail hour, don't they? And then they they eat. But what I found was people would get up in between courses, dance,

Uh yeah, I did find it was a definitive ending and it wasn't a late one. Let's put it at you know, let's leave it at that. I I've I've been at weddings where the speeches have started at midnight. Wow.

What in Canada or in the UK?

No, here in the UK.

Oh my god, at midnight.

Yeah, I had a first dance at one at one AM once. Me me and Richard stared on a at a wedding for the after party. We left at three.

Ha ha ha.

You know, it's insane. It's insane. And I you know, you hear photographers moaning that, you know, that they're having that they're there to half eight and it's all the the world's ending. But I guess it's all Yeah.

I d I think over the years I've mellowed a bit now, and I don't care if I have to stay a bit later now, but I know right at the beginning I would get quite anxious if. You know, the first dance was at eight and it was like quarter past and it still hadn't happened. I'd I'd be like tapping my feet and like worrying about, you know, what what's going on here? And now I'm just like, meh, whatever. It'll happen when it happens.

Yeah, you just you get you do get chill about it. And and there comes a time when and that's a again, that's the difference between high end and and and maybe the other the other the other element of weddings is that you're there till the end. Period. P that's it. There's no there's no shaking hands on the dance floor here there until they're scraping that last person off that dance floor. And that's just the way it is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Generally that's generally that's me and Ross.

Yeah.

Ha ha.

Yeah, but I I like I say coming back to that question, I I am all all down for us moving to a more American timeline. It just Makes so much more sense. I think the only difference is we wouldn't get the dancing in between courses. That everyone would just still sit there. So there'd be no dancing in the evenings. I guess that's the only difference.

I think because I do a lot of Jewish weddings as well that it it's probably quite similar in the dance situation, you know,'cause there is every between every course at a Jewish wedding there's dancing.

Okay, I've never done a Jewish wedding.

Oh yeah, uh it it it's it's mental. Well they come straight into the Israeli dancing, so the couple comes straight in, you know, in England they'd come in and sit down. And then either start the speeches when a Jewish wedding they come into Israeli dancing and everything just goes mental. So you've got to be on it.

I would love to see that. I would love to see that. I've not not had that experience. Yeah. Brilliant. Okay.

Uh it it has changed, uh yes, massively. Um as technologies change, the way that you sell has changed, the way that you sell yourself initially has changed. Yeah, we used to make a lot of money after the fact. Okay, we'd probably double our our wedding intake after the wedding.

Ah, yes, in person's house. Yes.

Someone asked me the other day about albums. Do I do I still sell albums? We we haven't really touched on that over the last, you know, the sessions that we talked about, but yes, we still h have albums. A lot of photographers will you know, I'll have three packages, let's say, and it and one of them they're all based on uh the amount of files that you get and the amount of time that the that I will spend there or that that that photographer will spend with you.

No I don't. Wha what do you mean?

Often that you know, this a lead up to a big wedding has it's been going on for years. They're so over it, they just wanna go on their honeymoon and just

Live.

without the wedding for a while. That's not in their rush. It's not in their mind. What am I one of my pictures? What are my pictures? What are my pictures? There's a time there's a time when they get back to reality and they start, you know, and they're dripping through social media from their friends' images and stuff and then they have that need for it. So it's it's just fulfilling that need when that gap comes.

That that actually gives me a good idea actually because I know En Photo, who were on a podcast a few weeks ago, uh they do do some very cheap albums. I think they do a light album, but I'm actually thinking of what they call what do they call it now?

It's not...

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well I think you're right in that it it would give such a good impression. But then wouldn't you w what what do you think?'Cause m what I'm thinking of right now is if that album's too good, they're not going to come back and buy an album, are they? And perhaps you want to sell them a nice round.

Possibly couldn't afford one in the first place. I don't know. I don't know. It depends where you're at in in the journey, doesn't it? Um I know when we did it.

I remember blurb, yeah.

Blurb, yeah. You know, I'd have put twenty of my favourite shots into a blurb book. And and when they viewed the files we gave that to them and they were all over it and it and it made it a little bit of a little bit of a

So it's also a

Yeah. End experience. as well.

I remember Bob's books.

Oh yeah, remember that. Well we use Queensbury, we've used Queensbury since probably Pretty much since day one, to be fair. Um I I don't think you can match it as far as as far as the quality goes, but You know, you've you've you've got to factor that in. If it's gonna cost you a few hundred pounds for an album, i have you you know, have you factored it into what you're charging? If you if you're under a thousand pounds

Yeah, they they the the clients' pictures are never your favourites. You know, they always pick different photos, don't they?

It's pretty mad what people you know sometimes I'll just leave a couple of really naff ones in and I've made it black and white and it's completely out of focus and then I'll see it on Instagram the week later and I'll be like, what were you? And and yet they love it, you know. So that's what I said about not deleting anything,'cause you can guarantee it's gonna be the best picture that you never showed anybody'cause it never lived.

We've got to be happy. I don't think you can succeed at this job if you're not happy doing it. No. I genuinely believe that. Yeah. No You go into everybody's happy day. If you hate your job, oh it'd be miserable.

There there are harder ways to make money, Martin.

Yeah, I I'm just wondering, you know, like I I don't I don't even know how you could hate this job. And I'm like what, you know, like twelve twelve years into this job and I still overall enjoy it. You know, of course we all have our off days.

Of course we all have times.

But w you know, taking it as a whole, oh my god, it's a great job.

Yeah, I so I was gonna say you're photographing people at their best and their worst and their most vulnerable.

Well when you say they're worse they're usually just a bit bit drunk, aren't they? That that's

It depends what happens.

What we mean.

J just wait for the book, mate. Wait for my book.

Yeah.

I would love to read your book, mate. Yeah. I was just gonna say I've just I've just looked at it. I've just looked it up on Infos website. Accordion mini book, eighteen pages. It's only a tiny thing. It's eight centimeters by eight centimetres. I sound like a salesman from I promise you I don't get any kickback. Seven pound thirty five. Do you know what I mean? It's like it's not even worth like worrying about, is it?

You make it small enough that you know, that she might just keep it in the car or in her handbag or whatever and she's having a coffee with her friends and she just happens to get it out. What that there's an advertisement for you right off the bat and it's cost you less than a tenner, so yeah.

You're right, you're right.

Because all right, people are you know, have their phones and they're used to flicking through stuff. It's just different if you're holding something. It's just it it makes you stop and have a look a bit more. You know, it it's something tangible. I'm trying to get my daughters to to to flick pages of books. Remember books?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I watched Oblivion the other night with Tom Cruising and remember remember the one where he's the he looks after the drones? He flies down to Earth which the moon has been destroyed and everyone's moved off Earth. They've been kidnapped by these aliens and he finds a book and he and he keeps it so precious. That the words in this book and it's probably the l you know the last book remaining on the planet.

Yeah, I was listening to a podcast today actually, um, that they reckon um film in twenty twenty five's gonna be a trend. There you go. Things go in circles.

I'm not sure where I stand on it'cause I'm I'd be pretty scared whacking a roll of film through through my Leica, to be fair.

Yeah.

May it be could be.

Could you do it? I don't know. Uh I'd have to have a bit of practice.

We'd have to teach everyone how to l read the meter.

Seriously, I have to get my old Seconda light meter out. Um Yeah, film is well expensive. I couldn't believe I I had a look the other day on which a role the film was and uh actually God knows where I get it uh developed, but hey, maybe that's uh maybe that's a story for next year.

Well, maybe, yeah. I was just gonna say, um, I just reminded me my son about three or four months ago, and he's twenty three now. He actually went out and bought himself an old film camera because he was like, I just prefer the photos that come out of the film camera and the it was hilarious because he lo he didn't know how to load the film. Um and he tried it and um

No. My my my first night as a photographer on a on a on a on a seventy thousand ton cruise ship in the K Caribbean, my first night aboard. And my job was to roll the film, Martin. So we had huge you know, spools of un unedit un undeveloped film. It came in huge spools almost, and you had to load it into the tiny canisters in the dark. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r ysbwl ysbwl ysbwl ysbwl ysbwl ysbwl ysbwl ysbwl ysbwl.

Brilliant. At least they didn't sack you for it.

No, well my first wedding in the Caribbean, Martin, and now let me just double stress that this was many, many, many years ago that I shot the wedding without any film in my camera. No.

Yeah.

No, tell what did she do? Did you have the two cameras? Did the couple have any photos? So many questions.

It's a bit loose. You know, when you wound on, I thought it's a bit loose.

Oh my god. You can't even open it up to check'cause it's filmed.

I've I've actually you know what, I'm looking at the Nikon FM two now that I did it with it's on it's it's on my shelf over there. And there is no window in the back of a Nikon FM two. So you couldn't even see like what film you had so looked like had a a see a see-through strip where you could see the film. Rydyn ni'n gwneud yn ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r.

Oh, that is every photographer's worst nightmare.

Isn't it?

I mean I've I've had wedding nightmares but where you know like I'm I'm taking photos but nothing comes out of the back of the camera. But I've never actually oh if I touch wood, I've never actually had that happen yet.

Yeah. I have a nightmare recurring nightmare where my f my my finger cannot touch the shutter. It won't I'm there and I cut it and I no matter how and the bride and groom are getting married, they're laughing, the rings are going on, everything's happening. And my finger will not touch the shutter. I can't depress it. Isn't that weird? Yeah.

I I've got one where I can't find the room. Ever every room I open is a different room, but not the wedding. Um whether it's a church or a reception or something. And my wife's got one where 'Cause she's sh sh does video where she's trying to set the tripod up but one of the legs keeps falling down. So every time she presses it, the other one falls and and she's like, Ah and the bride's coming down the aisle and the little tripod's always falling over and stuff, yeah.

Seriously. Whoever said wedding photography w isn't emotionally damaging, they were wrong.

I I always say to couples have you ever had wedding nightmares and often they're like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I said, That's my life. That's my life. You only have to worry about it once, but we have to constantly get wedding nightmares. Oh, it's so stressful, mate. Right, I think that's all the question from me, mate. Are we still going? Yeah.

No, I mean w you know, we are still going uh

Oh, still going yeah, yeah. I was gonna say I I I I feel like we've we've um we've Done good job on this one. Um I once again, Brett, I really thank you for your time. You're a you're a gentleman. You're a gentleman. Um Brett Harness, everyone.

Thanks, Mike.