And what I've started to do now with my web design clients , because I know that they have so many questions . That's one of the bonuses they get of getting a membership inside of the academy , so then I can work with them and they see me doing all this other stuff . So I'm working on it , you know it's beautiful . Yeah , like a little clay thing .
Because , yeah , and what cemented me in that it was you , one of your videos in I think it was a web design , of course where you said you know , you know your people are going to have questions , maybe create a page that's not customer facing and just give them the link to , and then you tell them all this stuff I was like well , shoot I got over 300
videos . That's what I'm gonna do , so I started . The people who came in to do a website I knew they would need marketing , so I'm like hey , and you get a membership in the unmarketing Academy , and that's how I'm building it right now .
Welcome to the web design business podcast , with your host , josh Hall , helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love .
It's fine and dandy having you here on this episode , my friend especially because we're having a fun chat on this one .
A member of my Web Designer Pro community , carol Dunlop , first off , is a seasoned business owner and entrepreneur of over 30 years that she's been in this industry so early internet days is when she got going and she is still standing today and up to some awesome stuff today , and she actually interviewed me for her podcast , which is called the Unmarket your
Business podcast , and it was a really great conversation we had about community building , online community . But more specifically and I think how this is going to help you is how to potentially create a membership or a community for your web design clients . So you may be at a place in your business or maybe eventually , web design clients .
So you may be at a place in your business or maybe eventually , that you want to stay in better contact with your clients and you may have a website maintenance or support plan .
You may have some sort of growth plan , but one additional option available nowadays for web designers is to actually have a customer membership or a support membership or , in the case of what Carol is up to , she actually has a marketing academy . It's like a marketing membership , primarily for her customers .
So she had a lot of questions after being a member of Web Designer Pro about what I've learned and building that to such a sustainable place today , what I've learned and how to build an online community , how to run it , how to balance .
If you are doing web design work , you probably want to know how to balance a community and a membership , along with your service work , how to sell it and when to sell it in the process of landing a client and then supporting them ongoing , where to price it and how to price it in a way that works for you , depending on if you are mixing in information
with community and potentially coaching . So all of those things are covered in more in this chat . I want to say a special thanks to Carol for having me on her podcast , which again is the Unmarket your Business podcast you can find that at unmarketyourbusinesscom and a big thanks for her allowing me to repurpose this for you .
Because I really enjoyed this chat and because this is something we've talked about a lot inside of my community , web Designer Pro , I thought let's make this a little more public and see if it helps you If you're at a place where you want to build your MRR , build a community , or , if you just want to see what it's like and to hear from somebody who's doing
it . So here is Carol , and a big thanks for her allowing us to listen in on this chat on the Web Design Business Podcast . Here we go .
All right , as I promised before , this is the man , the myth , the legend , josh Hall . He's sitting there like what is she talking about ? But I told Josh , you can't get rid of me now , because when someone does something amazing for me or changes my mindset or whatever , they're just in my head forever and I just always talk about them .
So I just wanted to say welcome , josh . I usually come on first and talk and all of that , but you know we get into this thing because , guess what ? Josh told me I could ask him anything . So , oh my goodness , I'm ready .
I'm so excited to be here with you , carol . We have had a DM relationship basically since you joined my community , web Designer Pro , so I'm so excited to finally meet you on camera here and be on your podcast .
Look , I'm a podcast host and I don't want to immediately start asking you questions , but I have to know , because you teased , you got , you teased me with this idea of what I helped you , you know , with your mindset , what was something that stuck with you Like what , what has made you know pro , and what about the thing ?
Okay , Let me start out first , because I'm a marketing person and a salesperson , right . So I know about that . I know when I hear the marketing speak , I know when I hear the sales speak and either if it's good or bad or whatever I'm going to say , or hey , I got to do that .
So , just so you all know , thisage WP I can't even remember what it's called to help organize your websites and all that stuff . Well , unbeknownst to you , it was taking me like hours , it was saying , to update all those plugins , to do all the stuff you needed to do , and it had been going on for a while . I was like it's got to be something better .
I was even trying to get my husband to do and I was just and it'd been going on for a while I was like it's gotta be something that I was even trying to get my husband to do it . I was like you can do this . It's like , oh , I ain't doing that . So he would not . I was like can you just help me ?
I was like , because he liked that backend stuff , he only does certain things . So I was like I don't know what I'm going to do and then I was listening to , listened to and you said y'all got to try ManageWP . What is the name of it ? Is it ManageWP ?
Yeah , ManageWP Okay .
Because I'll switch those names around in a minute and I do want to give them credit , more credit to do , because they are totally awesome . So I was like , what is this thing he's talking about ? Then I was digging in all of your episodes . I was looking on YouTube when you were talking about that and I was like , let me go check it out .
So I did and I started using them . They were , they say , they cut like hours down to minutes . Oh my God , it's just so amazing how I just this one thing just helped my life and put time back in my life . I was like , oh okay , so I remembered you from from that and I have been stalking you for a while .
I would look at some of the people you would interview and stuff , and I would even do some of the things . I remember when your last child was born and you had sent an email saying hey guys , I'm going to be out of commission for a minute . We're having some things going on and I know I prayed for you and your family and all of that .
So I'm like I've been invested in you for a long time , just whether you know it or not . So , anyway , I was using ManageWP and one of my sites had got hacked Not my sites , my client's sites because they weren't listening to what I was telling them to do anyway . And they got hacked . And I said , oh my God , now I've got to go back .
And it was like , I think , before we even discovered it , maybe two weeks or so . So I knew I didn't have , or I didn't think that I had , the latest backup to put them right back up and I was like , what am I going to do ? So I went in , managed F&P , looked at the thing and I was like , oh my God , they have backups from like way back .
So I backed it up to I think a month . It was boom , I didn't have to do nothing , just hit a button and it did it . And I'm like , oh my God , this is amazing . This is really amazing . So I messaged them and I said , hey , thank you so much for being a great service . I love what you do . And it was just all glowing right .
They even answered me back and said , wow , we get all kinds of crazy messages all the time , but none like this . Thank you so much . So I guess I'm up in there thing too . So then I remember it because I'm the kind of person I like to give credit where credit is due .
I remembered that you were the one who told me about this whole managed WP thing and you said go do it , it'll save your time and all of that . And I mess . I emailed you and I was like Josh , thank you so much for this , you don't know how much you changed my life . And blah , blah , blah and y'all this is what he said .
He's like Carol , are you in our maintenance , are you in my maintenance course ? Isn't that how we met ? I was like no , not yet we got to get you in there . That was the start of it . I was like , ok , what is that ? What's the maintenance course ?
Because I had looked at your course before and I actually thought , wow , this looks like something I ought to do . And you had them all together in a big bundle , you know , for one price . And I was like , ok , that's on my radar . So I already knew about it , but I had never thought about the maintenance course like that .
And you're like , yeah , you got to get in there because blah , blah , blah , blah , blah . Right now you can get in the community , we just chat and stuff . And I was like okay , so I got in there and I said I think I put my thing . Hey , everybody , I'm whoever blah , blah , blah . And everybody was just so awesome . I mean totally awesome .
Hey , everybody , I'm whoever blah , blah , blah , everybody was just so awesome . I mean totally awesome . They were like welcome and this is great . I love your profile , thanks for being here . And then the ultimate kicker was that I bet you didn't know you were this good , did you ?
The ultimate kicker was that you sent me a loom video when I joined the community and you and you went to my site and you said , oh , I see you are . It was just , it didn't even matter what you even said , just that video . Your , your casual like . I think they call it folksy , but I don't think it's folksy , I think it's your genuine you , how you are .
And I was hooked . I was really hooked and I'm like , hmm , okay , well , let me just dive in and do this thing . And I think I told you this in writing . But the first month after I joined , our revenue went up 43% . So awesome , 43% , what .
So awesome . Well , what so awesome ? Well , thank you for sharing that , Carol . That's a great and actually it's a great reminder and it just shows me what I'm doing as far as how I'm marketing is working by having a podcast , doing a lot of free content . I try to be as present and open as I can with lines of communication via email and stuff .
It's getting harder now , but I can tell when somebody like you , who's genuine and actually is not using like a template , you know , sales script when they're emailing me . So when you said hey , I started using Man's WP . I really appreciate it . I was like , oh , that's awesome , and I think you had said you're a listener of the podcast .
So I don't remember hard selling you as hard as I did . But hey , okay , I think at that point . It's like I just laid it out there . I have learned it's like if you got a good offer , just lay it out there , and I was just like Carol . I think you would rock at this , so I'm so glad . And then , yeah , to hear that the personal video .
You know , I've been doing those personal welcome videos for like five years now and I just I'm always reminded of how powerful those are . So , yeah , I always encourage everyone , no matter what industry you're in , send personal videos to your clients , especially new clients . Yeah , it's like you can make a lifetime client by sending a quick video .
And saying that is so true . That is so true Because , number one , they're not expecting it and I had done it for a little bit , then I stopped and then you made me realize . You made me realize a lot of things , but you made me realize how , how that little personal touch , something that you do on the regular , it impacts someone so much .
And I have this story to tell you that I haven't told anybody yet , but I'm working on this client's website and she came to me because she said Carol , I need to talk to you because I had someone else look at my website and I don't think they were telling me the whole story .
But I know that you would tell me the whole thing , you would be truthful and tell me what you think I was like . Oh yeah , I'll tell you what I think . And I did . I told him you know this don't look right , that's a good . It's not powerful enough . Blah , blah , blah . This is good . I like these colors . You know you could do more .
It's just like OK , so we are with the holiday and stuff like that . It should be finished in about a week or so , right ? So I got everything together , for I knew I just had I get these visions , I have to say spiritual downloads from God who tells me what I need to do for a client , how to make them go ?
Wow , oh my God , that's what I want , right ? So I knew that her sight just really wasn't powerful and she was too powerful for her sight , or her sight did nothing for her . It was just like elementary and she was all the way up in graduate school , right .
So I just sat down and I just let my you know , let my flow go , let things happen , and I did her homepage . Well , first , I sent her the copy , I did all the copy for the homepage , the services page and the about page , and I sent it to her . And I came up with this title for her the storyteller's architect .
That was just haunting me in my dreams storyteller's architect . And because what she does is she , she puts people on podcast . She's a podcast booking agency , right , christian , christian podcast . And I was like storyteller's architect . I was like that'll be good . So I had that in the copy . She was like , oh my God , storyteller's architect .
Oh , like that'll be good . So I had that in the copy and she was like , oh my God , storytellers architect . Oh , I had never even thought of that . Oh wow , I mean from the copy she was doing this , right .
So then I sent her that first draft of the homepage after I got it , like I wanted it and stuff , and I just knew from the pictures in my head I wanted her to be standing , you know , standing tall , that's the first thing that you see .
And then she has all these people in her background that she has actually helped to put on podcasts and I thought that would be really powerful , right ? So she's so funny . She got the email , she set up a camera to take her reaction as she looks at the website . And I can't even use the video because she's in a robe , she has no makeup or you know just .
You know just casual , casual , casual . And so she's like I'm recording this and she's looking straight ahead at the thing and she's like , okay , I'm clicking the thing and she clicks oh .
Oh my God . So you got to see the wow reaction .
Yeah , awesome , so I got to use that .
So now you have to use it . That's amazing . I mean , hey , if she sent it over to you as long as you know .
I would think a blur out . Blur out like no , don't even , but just the reaction . Oh my God .
Oh , that's amazing . That's cool too , because typically web designers either don't see a reaction or you might be at like a coffee shop and you show a client and then they may be a little subdued because you're there .
But that seems like a real natural reaction . So that's amazing . That was great . I'm going to do something with it . I'm about to show her . I just actually sent her before we got on here . I just actually sent her the about page . I know she's probably going to fall out on the floor for that . So , I cannot wait . I cannot wait .
That's great .
I know y'all we have gotten off track a little bit , but not that much . So , joshua , I wanted to ask you really introduce yourself to the audience and tell them what you're about .
But the question I have for you is how do you get traffic to your website ? So right now I'll start with that . It's mostly my podcast . I host the Web Design Business Podcast and it's not a clever name but it is very clear about what it is .
So I really have focused more over the past few years on the business of web design and then that funnels to just like for you , carol it funnels to my community , web Designer Pro , which now has all of my courses .
I have courses that help web designers with the business of their web design business , and it's a community and it has a coaching element too for those who want more direct access to me and coaching . So , yeah , my podcast is my main driver , though I also have a YouTube channel that has grown over the years .
I used to do tutorials on Divi , which is what I use for building websites , and then WordPress , which is the platform , and then some more entrepreneurial and web design business related videos . So those are my two primary engines , but the podcast is the one , like 90% plus of members who join pro immediately say I've been listening to the podcast .
I've been listening to the podcast . So I'm very excited to see that you reignited your podcast because , while there's tons of shows out there , it's still such a powerful tool . It is , yeah , that's kind of my main marketing avenues . I'm not terribly big on social media .
I use it more of a connector with my audience and then , yeah , as far as getting new traffic , it's podcast , youtube , and then I'm doing more and more like summit presentations and workshops for partners and stuff like that .
That all sounds good because you know acquiring minds want to know because that's what this podcast is about how to get more traffic to your website . Because if it's one thing that even web designers look at , you know not to think about coaches and marketers we all want traffic to the website .
Everybody's trying to tell you all these little tricks and sometimes it's just the good old fashioned stuff like getting on a podcast talking , you know , promoting your stuff and putting it out there , cause I feel like when you do a podcast people , you get in people's brains , right , and you make them think .
And when they think , if they have an idea that you sparked , like I did with you , they're always going to remember , cause I always kept going back to your YouTube channel and your podcast and the things that you were saying . I mean you helped me a lot even before I met you .
And then just sealing the deal , coming in on that first program and then getting inside the community , it just piles it all like , okay , okay , you're in there forever and you're right .
A lot of people , even this last , I think , a lady that came from the UK and she says I've been stalking you for a while and I finally said okay , but the community , the community is the thing that kind of got me there when you were talking about it and it's the thing that keeps me there .
And really I have very selfish reasons for having you on the podcast with me today , because I have a community , an academy , the Unmarketing Academy , and I love the way your community works . I love that people are engaged , that people talk to each other , that people even hire each other . So how did you get ? Tell us , tell us the details . I want to know .
How did you get all that to start happening ? What was like ? What was the first thing in your brain ? I know you couldn't have imagined years ago that it would turn out like this .
Yeah , there really there really wasn't a clear vision .
So I'm four years into it now with this community and it started initially because I had actually had a suite of courses years ago and I got students in my courses but they were all kind of separated and fragmented and I actually previously had Facebook support groups for each course , so I had a bunch of different groups and support .
It was just all over the place . A lot of challenges with that . So I got to a point where I knew , once I had a lot of different courses , I started having students join all the courses together . I was like man , I'd love to bring them together . So initially I thought , should I have a student support group ? I don't know , I felt kind of odd with that .
And then this platform called Circle came out in 2020 . And I'm a fan and friend of Pat Flynn and Matt Gartland with Smart Passive Income , which is a pretty popular online podcast and community . They started using Circle and I felt like , okay , I feel like I could trust them and therefore I'm going to trust . I really enjoyed the experience .
I looked at a couple different platforms , but I say that because before deciding to build a community , I wanted to make sure I felt really good about the experience and the tool I was going to use , so I fell in love with Circle and that's when I created .
It was originally called the Web Design Club the Web Design Club , so prior to becoming Web Designer Pro , the club was basically a way to get just my current students together and have community and an element of coaching in there , so it initially launched in the fall of 2020 . And I think we had 32 or 33 founding members in the initial launch .
And here's what's interesting about that , Carol , is I was very I don't want to say disappointed , but I was kind of like ah bummer , I really was hoping to launch with like 100 members .
Right yeah .
Not only financially , but I had at that point hundreds of students . I think I was closing in on 700 or 800 students at that point . So I kind of thought that a lot more would want the community . But we only had 30 some . But in hindsight that was like the best thing ever because those 30 members very quickly became a glued in core .
A lot of the people who are super active today in pro are still a lot of those 30 some members in the initial wave . A lot of those 30 , some members in the initial wave .
So my moral of the story and lesson that I learned when I started was starting small with a community is good because you get real-time feedback , you get to know your members very well . And then it just kind of grew organically from there . Initially it started off .
My business model prior to last year in 23 was it was courses first , then a membership second , so I would sell courses and then I'd have the membership for those who want to go deeper . And then when Circle eventually added course functionality , that's when I put everything together and then renamed it and rebranded to Web Designer Pro .
So you just get everything and now there are levels to get everything . So it grew small and started small and grew slowly but steady , which I've also found is really good because I have had waves of new members . But then that can be tricky because you don't get to really give them the experience if there's like 20 people who join at once .
So , slow and steady and then just the numbers have gone up and to the right every month and with recurring revenue , as you know , those things stack up .
Oh yeah , it's a slow burn .
It's a painful build sometimes in the first year or two . But man , once those numbers start to compound , it's freaking awesome . So yeah that's kind of how I started and built the momentum for Pro .
And not even not having a clue , how am I doing this ? I'm just doing that . But I look at you like , wow , he's got this great thing going as I've been working on my academy .
But then I think I see the work that you put into that thing and I do not , honest to God , I do not put that much work into the academy , not like I'm leaving that out in the ocean or something .
But there's other things that I've had to get together , like , for instance , when I first came to you , we had done web design for years , and then about , I'd say , about 10 years ago , we added in marketing because we knew that all the pretty websites in the world , they don't get you anything if you don't , if nobody sees them Right .
So like , let's start marketing . So I did marketing , I did social media marketing at first , and then I wrote my first book , which went to number one international bestseller . I was like , oh , ok , well , maybe I could be doing this part . Ok , well , maybe I could be doing this part .
But I always had it was a problem putting the website design and the marketing together , because am I a web designer who does marketing or I am a marketer who also does web design .
And then when I met you and you were like , hey , you need to be selling more of your web maintenance stuff which we had already started doing that about three years ago three , maybe four years ago doing web maintenance and I wanted to grow that part of the business , because maintaining the website that you created is just top of the line , because then you get
clients forever right and they love you and then they won't trust their website with anybody else .
I'm like .
I gotta have Carol . So I'm like I'm going to put this together and with one magic stroke you go look , you can do websites , you can maintain websites and you can help people market their websites . I have been asking that question forever how do I put these things together ? And then I got in with you and the group and stuff and it just came together .
So I changed immediately . I changed the thing on the front . I think it said create something and something else . And I can't convert . Create something and convert , but now it's create , protect , protect and market .
Yeah , because you know my framework is build , support , grow . And you can take that idea and rename it or , you know , put anything you want around that . But yeah , you had like two out of the three and then you had that really important missing piece , which is just to support .
And then , because , as you know , people turn on and off marketing and they'll ramp up , they'll ramp down , but you always want to get clients to pay you something , month to month , ideally . So exactly plan is just oh yeah , it's such a , it's such a great way to go . I'm so glad that's worked out for you .
Oh yeah , me too . Me too , because I'm increasing those web maintenance people , because for me , now that I have , you know , the web maintenance thing down and I know I can give them quality service and all of that , which is what I think we all want . You know , we all want to give our clients quality service .
We want to give them as much of us as we can , but not too much . And then we want to save time for our lives , which I have to say , you do that , you do that . You know you got three kids , you got the wife , you got your business going on and you still get in there and you talk to us all the time .
You know you're jokey and helping us and all of that . And I was like , does this man have a life ? And yes , he does , he has a life , he has a wife , he has kids and you're always bringing your kids in and stuff . So I just love it . That's the , I think , the feeling that I want for my academy , and then I just learned something from you today .
Starting that I want for my academy and then I just learned something from you today Starting out , slow , going through , that is not that bad .
Yeah , especially with a community , it's so different when you have a service or a product that you sell , because with courses , yeah , I was able to get 100 students at once and it was fine Other than a Facebook support group , really wasn't that big of a deal .
But when it is a community , a community is by nature so different than a support group or even a big , large Facebook group , because if you want to reduce churn which means you keep people coming back you've got to have a sense of cohesion and there's definitely a lot to it . I mean , I've learned .
I really have been very proactive at increasing engagement , tagging people getting in there , doing better at and it helps that Web Designer Pro is small by nature . It is a premium small group .
If Pro was a 10,000 person group , yeah , it'd be really hard for me to keep track of everybody , which is why , we have a gated , capped tier now for coaching members Because I know I know you , I know your business , I know what you're up to .
So that helps too , because I know if someone joins I'm like , oh you got to meet Carol and I'll intro you or tag you . So it is a lot as a community builder . But I found that once you get a community or a membership to a place where people really start interacting with each other , it takes a life of its own on .
And then not that I sit back , but now I mean I log into Pro most every day , but there's a day where I could let Pro go for a day and it would be all right . It would self-sustain . It doesn't need me all the time , because members have made it . You're a huge part of it now you make Pro what it is so many people make Pro what it is .
It's not like Josh's club anymore , it's Web Designer Pro . So all that to say , though . Yes , it's been a lot of hard work . Community building is very time intensive . It is hard work . You're seeing it at a place now where it's more mature . So I have my systems down .
I have times of day where I go in and in a span of an hour I'll cook through as many comments as I can and post and DM and then I move on to podcasting or a different work block . But I will say I'm kind of glad I built my community when I was full-time online education .
I do think it would be really hard to balance a growing online community and do service work and do a bunch of other projects , because it is very intensive , at least if it's an ongoing community . So it could happen . But I think that's one edge I had is I wasn't an agency owner full time .
When I started Web Designer Pro , I had already sold my agency , so I was able to dedicate fully to that .
I like that . I like the way you said it gives me hope . It really gives me hope because in 2025 , my goal , my plan , is to really focus more on the membership piece , because they're like children . You have to focus on it , you have to get rid of those little tangles and you have to kind of mold them a little bit .
And you have to be there because I have members in there and I have people who look to me for things that I do . But you know , I know it takes more work and you know I just had some other things that had priority over that , like moving to Mexico .
And one thing I would say I don't want to discourage anyone who also has , you know , an agency or a full time something else , because you can definitely still build a thriving community . A full-time something else because you can definitely still build a thriving community .
But I would just have an approach of like , if I was running an agency and doing web presenter pro , I would probably try to have like a month or two that is like highly engaged with a challenge or a sprint or something , and then have a couple months where you just kind of let the community do its thing and check in .
You know as much as you can , or maybe do a monthly ama or a q a or something . I would have that approach , though , to where there's like there's season , it's almost seasonal like you hustle for a season back off for a season .
If I were managing it I mean , right now it's my primary source of income , so it's my job like my main thing is being in pro . But uh , if it was just a part of what I was doing , I would have a hustle and chill approach .
That's kind of what I'm doing now , because I do masterclasses once a quarter . Okay , awesome , this quarter was just blown . So , starting first quarter , if y'all are listening , starting first quarter . Next year I'll be having the masterclasses again , so that'll be four .
But I'm getting ready to do a mixer , because I did it first time last year and it was just a mixer of the members , people who are thinking about being members , people who had no idea , and we just got together for a little holiday mixer .
So I'm going to do that again , probably in the next week or so , coming up and that just you know , keeping interest going until I can get more energy in there .
Oh sorry , go ahead , go ahead .
Well , I was going to ask you for three lessons that you've learned from doing the online community , the membership and stuff . Just three of the top lessons that you've learned from doing the online community , the membership and stuff . Just three of the top lessons that you've learned from doing that .
Personal videos personal welcome videos . Big one I've learned that you have to email people separately , and often so we have . As you know , as a member of Pro , you can RSVP for events and calls that you have access to and you'll get automatic notifications from Circle .
But I actually have a whole separate series of emails that go out Like when we do our weekly calls . The day before you get a heads up tomorrow , we're having a call at this time One of my favorite tips that I've learned with my community . I'm shocked at how many people click this email . It's a live now . So , every week you probably get them .
I don't know if it's annoying but it works , so I'm not turning it off . It's they forget or they're head deep in a project . So the ongoing additional emails have been a huge help and I'm shocked at how many people open those alongside of their emails from pros .
So that's another big lesson I'd say that have helped me keep people engaged is the personal welcome videos and I know that I will have a lot more dialogue initially with members on the coaching tier , like that . But that tends to taper off . It's not ongoing Like my DM . I'm not messaging 200 people a day , it's usually like six to 12 .
It's like half a dozen to a dozen that I'm interacting with and if I like for example if you and I are DMing I give you tips . Then you're usually off going on it for a few weeks or a month or so . So that has helped the personal video , knowing it'll be a little more time intensive at first .
The additional marketing and email marketing the other thing that I think is the biggest benefit is having a wins and successes thread for wins and successes Like that's what I go back to . It's where a lot of my testimonials come from . It's probably the most popular space in pro and for members .
If you want to see what's working today in web design , there you go . If people are sharing , I just got two clients . This is what I did . So those three things combined , I think have really helped ongoing , maintain engagement and inspiration and with me being at the helm of it and having a personal touch that like for you .
You know you still reference that experience of that personal video . All those things have really helped . And one thing I wanted to ask you , which ties into this is with your membership are there different industries of people , like people in different industries different ?
Sort of kind of . It's mostly for coaches and service providers , so they can be a productivity coach , a life coach , a transformation coach , or they could be a service provider , like a web designer , like I am , or a VA or something .
The only reason that I asked that because I do think that's one thing that helps . pro is , we're all web designers , primarily there's actually some folks who are community builders like yourself and you're doing web design as a part of your business .
But it does help that naturally , everyone's a web designer , so there's a common thread , I think , with a community like yours and anyone who has a community of different industries . My recommendation would be to try to group them with the other folks who are like that .
So if you were to have a space for coaches , a space for creatives or designers , that way they know who are my people in this community . That way , when I post about something about website related , if John is a business coach and he doesn't know anything about websites , we're not going to have a common ground with that .
So but there's a lot of benefits too to having people with expertise in different areas , because John may suddenly see my post about web design and be like , ooh , I need a website . Or John might post something about speaking and I don't know anything about public speaking , so awesome , I can learn from him .
So there's pros and cons , I think , to having a diverse in the way of like industry group versus , you know , in Web Designer Pro it's in the name You're probably going to be a web designer ?
Yeah , and there's not that many , you know . I know a couple of big ones out there , but my thing is all about marketing . That's what glues my people together about marketing , because they don't know anything about marketing or they know very little about marketing and then when they get in there , they're asking the same questions .
You know , how do I do a funnel ? How do I hook this up to my email marketing ? What about social media ?
So that's that's how the whole thing started , because I was doing and people are listening out there , this may be good for you too I was doing these lives every Monday and then I went to every Friday , Then I did every Tuesday , I think I picked every day of the week and I did them for like five years , Right Every every week that I have video trainers or
all trainings and I said you know , I'm going to put them together in a marketing academy so that you can go there and look . If you want to find something about email marketing , boom , there you go . If you want something about social media , if you want to know about now is books and summits and podcasts .
So that's a glue that kind of holds them all together Cause I had this thing called the unmarketing inner circle . I ran that for two years and it was the same thing . You know , we all came in . I would coach them twice a month and that's what you know . I was like , Ooh , this is good , but it was a little .
It was like one , 99 a month and you get two sessions . So I'm like , hey , let's put them over here , charge them 97 a month and you can have access to all this stuff . And then I do the masterclass trainings on top .
So , gotcha , you have a great setup . I actually didn't realize the extent of everything you had there . So , yeah , it's an engagement thing . I think it's . It's honestly just worthwhile , you know , being as personal as you can and individually checking in with people , introducing people to each other and , um , collecting those wins , sharing those testimonials .
One thing that's really helped pro you mentioned it early on is having members on my podcast and that like I could do that as a one-on-one call . But then it's like what a shame no one else heard that . So right , and especially if they're open to sharing numbers .
I mean I love when people are open about that because I think it's really important not in a boastful way , but people need to know what's possible and what people are charging . So I love when people are open about hey , I made eight grand on this or whatever . It's so , so helpful .
So , yeah , I've really like probably 30% of my podcasts now are members of pro and sometimes they have areas of expertise . Like you saw recently , alexia just did a presentation . She was on the podcast . She came up with this launch plan for designers . I know Genius . I was like this is so much better than anything I ever did .
Would you like to come on the podcast and then do a training in pro . So I'm really utilizing well , that sounds mean , but I'm like , I'm , I'm , yeah , I'm utilizing the members and their expertise to grow the community .
Um , so I don't have to create another training but it helps them as well , and I have you know , I was so impressed by Alexia in the beginning .
When I first got in there Cause I'm , I'm always I got my eyes open for , hey , this person would be good , or hey , that , or that's how I did the , you know , the women of color web designer panel . That's how we lived together , alexia , by the time this comes out , alexia's thing will already have run and she's talking about Brandon . She's amazing .
I think her was like 27 years old . I'm like you got an old soul and you know a lot , but 27 years . I was so impressed with her , oh my goodness . So , you know , to me , the community that you have helps me in several ways . It helps me learn more about being a web designer .
Yeah , it helps me learn tips and tricks and what other people are doing and you know the different levels that people are at . That's good , but it also is a place where I can look for podcast guests summit , you know , jv partners . All of that because some of the people that are in there you know I don't do their stuff . I do .
I do copywriting , but I'm not a copywriter . So I have an episode that I'm going to do with a panel of copywriters and I have my own one girl who was in one of the did one of the trainings . I can't Abby or Annie or something like that . I can't remember her name , but I'm a little bit , yeah , yeah .
And get her on because she she was amazing Right With her copywriting and people don't know about these things . So I just love you know , I love community anyway and I love having vibrant , engaging people in there that make it exciting , and I think that that's what your community does .
It helps me to think and I'm always in there , like yours is the only community I'm probably in like just about every day . Seriously , either I'm reading or I'm replying , or I'm thanking or I'm putting a win or something up . So it's a good thing . I mean you've created a great , great thing .
Now , before I let you go , I know that you have some type of challenge that you would like for people to do . Maybe they're thinking about doing a membership , or maybe they , you know they're like , wow , I got all these videos , just like Carol does . Maybe I can put it in an academy . Or I got all these courses like Josh has .
Maybe I can join circle or do something . What ? What would you say to them ? How would you help them get started with this ?
I have found that there's a lot of power with the big three C's , which are courses , community and coaching .
What I would say is , if you can figure out a way especially if you do have resources or information that you want to package up in some way and have community , and have you do some sort of coaching with that , which could be as little as like a Q and a a month just showing up to answer questions , there really is a lot of power in those three things
combined because you you get can you get courses , the info if you want it , depending on where you're at , what you're looking for . You get community support and you don't feel so alone . You get to partner up with people , like you're saying . And then there is I mean , there's got to be the thing with a community is there's got to be a leader .
If you don't have a leader , it just blah , it just fizzles or goes all over the place , like you . Just you need somebody at the helm . So for anyone who's interested in that , I would say heads up . A hidden thing you'll probably need to be working on is personal growth and leadership . Being a community builder is mostly leadership . It's mostly leadership stuff .
You're dealing with different personalities You're dealing every once in a while , you'll get some conflict . Luckily , pro has been like I better knock on some wood , yeah .
A lot of wood , yeah , I think I've deleted one comment oh wow , in pro in four years , because it was just like that wasn't you know , and it was some guy who was trying it out and it just was not a . It was like , yeah , that's not cool . Like we don't talk , we don't . That's not how we roll here .
I'm big on free speech and being yourself , but if something is like you know , tearing somebody down , that's absolutely that's not happening . So that's the only time I've ever had to delete something , but you know that comes with anytime you have a bunch of people together .
There's going to be another side of that , which is managing people and , you know , fostering the vibe , and I think if you're just , if you're who you are like , you're going to attract and continue to attract people who are like you , carol , who are fun and charismatic and want to have fun doing their business and do a lot of different things .
So I think all that to say , though , like community , coaching and courses , if there is a way to get those in there , it's just three avenues of keeping people there , because if you just have courses , somebody may want community and go elsewhere . They may want coaching and go elsewhere . Vice versa , if you just do coaching .
Coaching is great , but if you don't have any resources to back that up or a community to support them , it's all on you . So yeah , I'd say for anyone who's starting , even if it's just one , you have your resources , you have a support community and you do a monthly call . That could be it . That could be a great start .
As simple as that , yeah , I like that Great start .
And then I would really really encourage everyone to consider the personal video thing . Personal video welcomes follow up with people , hustle in the beginning with it . Yeah , video welcomes follow up with people , hustle in the beginning with it . Yeah , it's going to be , you know , a lot of engagement in time .
But , man , it really starts to compound when people go . I don't want to leave . I can't imagine leaving this . It's like what a compliment for you to say you log in there every day or every other day , like that's huge . I don't do that for any .
So , uh , yeah , like that's a huge , huge compliment so it can be very overwhelming , but start small and then , yeah , have to use the three C's and uh I didn't coin that term , by the way .
Uh , but uh , man , it's powerful , yeah it is powerful and I love , like I love what you're saying and it seems simple , because most of the people out there who want to do some type of academy or online community or something , they have a community . They're probably a coach or even a service provider .
You can gather them around an idea and if you've got a course in there , they want to ask questions about the course , because just having the community and you're going through the course helps so much . If you have this , it seems like an idea that I should know . Why can't I get it ?
And you put it in there and then five people answer you like , oh , that wasn't so bad , so yeah .
You know , for folks early on too , I would highly , highly , highly recommend starting off with like a bootcamp or a six week sprint or something like that , before you commit to doing an ongoing forever community . Like I knew when I started this , I was in it for the long haul , I had already been a course grader for several years and everything .
But I think it's really important to see if you like it , because I think a lot of people do start communities and then they're like oh my gosh , this isn't easy . Passive income this is really hard . I've done a lot of different types of work . I've sold products , I've sold services . I've done it all . Community building is by far the hardest that I've done .
It's easier now , uh , but especially in the early days , like community building is very , very hard work and you do have to be a person who likes people and once people you know honestly like some people should just be a product creator . You should create products , you should sell them .
And if you don't really care like if someone emails you and you really don't care about what they have to say or the challenges then don't start a community . You're not going to . It's not going to go . Well , Some people are really good at products , Some are good at services , Some are good at software . Do that .
But if you want to try a community out , I would say , just give yourself a constrained , let's try it out Six-month program . Here's the course . It's backed with community and I'll go live once a week for six weeks and then after six weeks . If you're like that was awesome , Then roll it into something ongoing after six weeks .
If you're like this I am drained .
I never want to do this again .
You're off the hook . You don't have to cancel a membership , you're done .
I love that . That's some great advice for anybody wanting to . I guess you know the whole thing is about . People are trying to seek out passive income . Passive income is not really passive . We're working hard for this , whatever this income is . That's how I know that I have a little ways to go with my academy . That's why I stopped .
You know I'm taking care of people in there , but I stopped like just obsessing over it and I know OK , a little bit more , because just look at what I did this year , just since June , with my web design business and with the community there . So I know that it's possible with what I want to do , but I have to got to prioritize things .
What's the most important thing for you to do ? Do that and then prioritize something else .
I was just going to say real quick , because a lot of people are probably going to start a community or a membership alongside something else . So , yeah , you don't want to get into a place where you start something that you can't sustain . And that's very , very challenging . So , yeah , I love the idea of like a sprint .
You know , do something in like a six week format or two month format , see if you like it . That goes with everything . By the way , when I started a podcast , I just did an interview series for nine . I interviewed nine other people . I loved it . I really enjoyed conversations .
A couple of people said you're a great interviewer and I was like I think I could do this , you know , once a week for a long time . So it's kind of the basic recommendation of , yeah , try it out first before you commit .
And just test test and see . Watch , rinse and repeat , and sometimes you don't need to repeat , just leave it alone , let it go . All right , josh , I'm going to let you get out of here . This was amazing . I was looking so forward to talking with you . You did not disappoint . You're the same as always .
Just like Alexis told me she was like he's the same , he don't change . Just like you see him in the group , he's like that in real life .
Oh , that's a great point . I can't leave without talking about that real quick . Yeah , I feel like we just got started . So Alexis is one of the founding members . I think she was like the sixth or seventh member . She's amazing , just incredible story . She had the best year ever this year in 2024 . Far surpassed her revenue from years prior . So she's incredible .
But the reason I mentioned that is yeah , I got to meet with her and a bunch of other pros in person last year to meet with her and a bunch of other pros in person last year . That's another big thing is , if you can get people together in person at some event or something at least once a year , it's huge because that will carry over for months .
I'm still buzzing off that event last year , and it came at a really important point too , because my numbers were down at that point and I was doubting myself a little bit . I was like , is this what I should be doing ?
And then hearing their stories and meeting Alexis and the other pros and then hearing them talk about Because unless you proactively ask for testimonials and stories , you're probably not going to get them unless you just randomly reach out . So , yeah , that was huge .
I left that event going like , okay , this works , I just need to do better at marketing it , doubling down on what's working , being more present , sharing these success stories and wins . And then , coincidentally , my numbers started to go up big time after that .
But you never know until you get out there and do it . We're telling people because , like I said , I was very selfish . I wanted you on here because I wanted all your it , like you know , we're telling people because , like I said , I was very selfish .
I wanted you on here because I wanted all your secrets , I wanted to know and a lot of stuff , just from being in the Web Designer Pro community . You said the same thing that I kind of already knew . You know you're personal , you're active , you're managing people and I knew that part about it and stuff .
But sometimes it's just like you just got to try it out and see what works , because my unmarking the inner circle . I had that for two years . I really liked it but it kind of fell off and I kind of like , okay , I don't want to do this anymore but I want to do something different .
But I've been working on the academy for a while and it's had its peaks and valleys . And what I've started to do now with my web design class because I know that they have so many questions . That's one of the bonuses they get of getting a membership inside of the academy , so then I can work with them and they see me doing all this other stuff .
So I'm working on it , you know it's like yeah , like a little clay thing .
because and what cemented me in that , it was you one of your videos in I think it was a web design , of course where you said you know , you know your people are going to have questions , maybe create a page that's not customer facing and just give them the link to it and you tell them all this stuff .
I was like , well shoot , I got over 300 videos , that's what . I'm going to do so . I started the people who came in to do a website . I knew they would need marketing . So I'm like hey and you get a membership in the unmarketing Academy , and that's how I'm building it right now . So I know I got people locked in .
I love that , love that .
So you know , hey , you do a lot of stuff and you don't even know , you don't even know how much you help us out there .
And there is a lot of . I think that is kind of a new thing for web designers . There's a lot of opportunity now for some sort of support , like customer support community .
And I mean you tell me clients probably get a website from you and then they realize , oh my gosh , carol is a marketing guru , she's got a whole academy , she's teaching other people as a client . Talk about upsell opportunity left and right .
Oh , yeah , definitely .
Yeah , you can roll people into and even if you're selling a marketing plan , you could say when you're on our marketing plans , you also get the support community and they can join monthly calls or whatever .
I think there's a real huge opportunity that web designers are sitting on for getting clientele together and being more of a Almost like a coach or consultant in that realm . And if you have clients that are similar or like you , who have a focus on marketing , you're sitting on gold . So it's awesome and it's a win .
Win because they learn and they can stay connected and keeps you talk on top of mind . I could go on and on about the benefits of community .
I know but they talk to each other . That's a good thing and they find out things like , for instance , the lady that I was telling you with the web design thing I'm in this other group , that is all about collaborations , right .
And I saw a podcast that she should have in her inventory and it's called nine to five , something like Christians in the nine to five community or something . And I messaged her and I was like , hey , do you know about this podcast ? And she was like no , I need to put this in my thing . Are you going to be on ?
I was like no , this was in another group and I just wanted to make you aware of it .
So I'm always and I know you do this as well thinking about my people , where they are in their journey , what they're doing , how I can help them or how I can assist them in other ways , so that when they come to me and they say , carol , I need this right here , oh yeah , it's either paid or free or whatever , and I'm a resource because I know you're a
resource , because I message you when I need something and you get back to me and you tell me stuff and I'm like , oh , I never thought about that , thanks , josh , and then I'm open to Mary and Ray .
There you go , yep , and the cool thing about that too is a lot of I feel like a lot of client success is hidden from web designers . It's like , oh , you got a client result , that's awesome . Maybe you'll get a testimonial on your page .
That is the opportunity to repurpose that for your other clients , ideally in a community like this of clientele , but also in newsletter or a podcast or an interview series . Yeah , I mean , that's .
The really cool thing about having a support community for clients is , if one client shares their win that Carol helped me with , then you might have , you know , 30 other clients that see that and they're like ooh , I want to do that too .
It's a lot easier to sell to people who are your current clients because they already know , like and trust you , instead of having to go find new clients all the time .
So , yeah , that is a key y'all . You can sell to the people that you have now without trying to look at other people that don't even know you , and you can resell stuff .
Yep , exactly , yeah , yeah , resell , upsell . Or I mean a lot of clients just don't know what you're doing , if you're doing marketing services . So if you get an SEO win and one client's like , oh my gosh , I worked with you four years ago , I didn't know you were doing this , I would love to Right yeah , so sell to the people who are already .
You're already selling to don't really listen until they need something . So you can tell them all day long , you know , I shine black shoes , I shine black shoes , I shine black shoes . And they will come to you and say , oh my God , do you shine black shoes ? That's what I was looking for .
I think a lot of people can't visualize a result . Sometimes , like , as web designers , we know what a Google ranking would do or we know what a win would do , like with contact form submissions , with conversion rates , clients don't really think like that . It's because it's not their world , it's not what they do .
So if they see a result and they see like yeah , we got a lot more contact submissions , our revenue increased by 20 or something , they're like oh , now that's interesting yes so they need to see results .
You know testimonials , our classroom everywhere , always testimonials , even in the podcast . Y'all will see as we go on , I have a client spotlight that's going to be coming up and I pick one of my clients and talk about them because I think that the more I guess , the more success my clients have , the more I have .
You know , we're just lifting each other up , up , up , up up , and so I want to keep that going . And , and you do that same thing , Josh . You know you put people on your podcast , you get them in the hot seat and you make them quit their job .
No , you don't make them quit their job .
You tell them that they can't quit their job , but when they do oh , I was thinking about this you need to have some type of that was easy button or something , because when we have cancer treatment , when you get through the chemo , you're going to ring that bell ding ding ding .
So when people quit their job because a lot of us in there , a lot of I , haven't had a job in almost 30 years , but there are some people out there who are going from the other E the employee to the entrepreneur , so a bell or something that they do .
I love that idea . You saw , ben just went full time two weeks ago , right , yeah . So yeah , no , that's a great call . Yeah , I mean I thought about putting like a little swag or package together , but I love that idea of yeah , like ring full-time bell or something like that .
I mean , most people bring the entrepreneur bell , something I don't know how we could do that so they can all see it .
But I think it would be good because it's it's one of those things that's dang . I did it . That's great . I know he had been talking about it for months . He'd been fretting over it , him and his wife and stuff I just I told her I was so happy I have not even listened to that piece yet because I've been busy trying to get other stuff doing .
But I said this week I'm going to go back and listen to that call because I want to see and hear when he did it , because I'm just so proud of him , I'm so proud of the community all together with the stuff that we are doing , how we're making waves in the entrepreneurial world .
When you think about what you know , I designed websites and people are living off of this . I'm living off of the money that I get from designing websites and having people you know work with me .
So and look , carol , you're a huge part of it . What you said , right , there is key . You just shifted from your community to you said we were doing this , and when somebody says we , that's like there could be no better compliment for a community builder than when somebody says our community or we do this .
Yes , we're doing that . We're for everybody , and I just want to let everyone know that's listening . Right now , you can do this too . It doesn't matter what industry you're in , what you're doing or whatever you can . You can create an online community that brings you joy , that brings you happiness and brings you money . That's what we need , money .
All right , josh , I'm going to let you get out of here , but before we go , I know you have a little something to tell our people . You know we always like gifts or something , but what you got , what you got .
Yeah , so I told you before I'm like I feel back , so I don't really have any resources for community builders at this time . I'm all in on on web designers , um , but I do have .
I mean , gosh , my podcast is free , my youtube channel is free , tons of free resources , um , I would say I would just say go to webdesignerprocom and there's going to be some information there . I , at the time when this comes out , I'll also have a couple free trainings , um , that can help start a web design business . Even if you're not a web designer .
If you're curious about what that would look like , that'll be a good help . So , yeah , just go to webdesignerprocom . There'll be a ton of of links there for freebies and to check out Pro if anyone's interested .
Yes , great , awesome , y'all . Go do that , check it out , check it out . So , josh , thank you so much because , being my coach , I claim you as my coach now . But being my coach , you know how coaches are . Sometimes I ain't got time for you , you little person there , but when I , I just want y'all to know .
When I asked him , he was like I'm there , just let me know I'm here .
So you know , that means a lot to me when the people that I'm learning from , that I that are mentoring me , that I that are helping me , can say , hey , I'm , I'm willing to help you with something , cause I do that all the time with my people all the time , and so that that means a lot . So , thank you .
Oh , absolutely Listen . Any member of pro who has a podcast , just let me know , cause I will absolutely . I will absolutely jump on and talk shop . So this has been great .
Awesome , awesome . Thank you so much . Bye everyone .
Keep it up , carol . All right , I'm your coach , so I'm going to tell you keep it up . Let's make 2025 the best year yet .
You got it .
So , again , there may be a time and place for you where you want to consider having a customer membership or customer support community of some sort . So I hope what Carol and I discussed in this one helps you . Again , you could do it low end , low key , or you could really make it a big part of your business .
In fact , eric , the CEO of my agency in Transit Studios , is one of the biggest parts of our business and biggest parts of our MRR now on top of our support and growth plan so many opportunities and cool things in this wonderful world we live in in web design . I would love to hear from you I know Carol would as well .
You can drop us a comment for the show notes at this episode , which are going to be found at joshhallco slash 367 . So check that out and again , highly recommend tuning into Carol's podcast Unmarket your Business , which you can find at unmarketyourbusinesscom , and let her know .
You heard her on the show and if you enjoyed this chat , I'm sure she would love to hear from you , so you can find her there and all the socials and everywhere she's active . Again , for all the links to connect with her and to hear her podcast , go to joshhallco slash 367 .
All right , friends , cheers to building some MRR with , potentially , your own customer community . Make sure you subscribe , because we've got some more doozies ahead , some awesome conversations that I'm really excited to share with you here soon . So subscribe , if you haven't already , and I'll see you on the next one .