Introverted sales strategies . Honestly , it's to not have to have a sales conversation , and the reason I say that and what I'm thinking is all of what we've been talking about is my way of creating leads that look like referrals when they come in . And if you think about what a referral sale looks like , I keep using my example . I'm looking out the window .
I had to replace a very old driveway this summer . I have no idea how to hire a concrete contractor . I don't know what that looks like , but my neighbors had done it five years ago . They love their driveway , so I just said who was your person .
They raved about them , so I called them up and they would have had to screw up really badly in those conversations for me to not hire them . No desire to call 10 different concrete contractors . So that's what a referral lead looks like At the moment . I met that person .
They had to screw up in the sales process and that's what I want introverts to have and that's why I teach networking . The way that I do is if you have a connection avatar and that person is sending you people or that person is putting you in front of their audience and saying , teach my people for an hour .
You are having the same impact on them that you would have if a referral came in . You are having the same impact on them that you would have if a referral came in . Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast with your host , josh Hall , helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love .
Hey friend , great to have you here for another episode of the Web Design Business Podcast . Introverts and selling that's what we're diving into in this one . Now , if you are on the introverted spectrum as a personality type , then I'm guessing sales is probably your least favorite part of the job of being a web designer .
But the reality is , if you don't have a salesperson , you got to do the selling . Good news is that there are a ton of ways to have more introvert-friendly sales environments for you . That's exactly what we're getting into in this one .
I'm so pumped to have Michelle Warner onto the podcast , who is a networking specialist , and she has a ton of introvert-friendly sales strategies that we dive into in this one , including how to create comfortable sales environments for you based off your personality , how to find the two lovely words referral partners .
I love this idea of creating a connection avatar that is ideal for you to bring in the right leads for you , and creating a safe sales environment , some mindset shifts that make sales feel less icky If you fall into that camp , and one of my favorite parts of this conversation how to network efficiently .
That's not wasting a bunch of time if you don't need to . So we're going to cover all that and more in this one . You can find more about Michelle at her website , themichellewarnercom . She's got some free resources and a course for networking . Both of those will be linked over at the show notes for this episode , which are going to be at joshhallco slash 355 .
So head there for more . And before we dive in , one thing that can help make sales easier is having the confidence of your system , from onboarding to project management to actually building the website and handling the project off boarding . If those things are aspects of your business that you do not have control of , I would love to help you out with that .
That is exactly what my web design business course is for . It covers absolutely everything contracts , invoicing , proposals , onboarding , project management , revisions , offboarding . The entire client experience is what is covered in my signature flagship course , my web design business course , and it is available now inside of my community Web Designer Pro .
You can get access to any tier when you join Web Designer Pro , but if you just want to go through the course , we now have the courses tier option , so you can get access to my business course and my entire suite of courses currently for just 49 bucks a month . Head over to webdesignerprocom to jump in , to get access to business course and all my courses .
And , for now , enjoy this conversation with Michelle Warner . I'm going to load you up with some tips , if you're introverted , for introvert-friendly sales . Michelle , welcome in , so excited to dive into introversion and sales and networking . I think notoriously those three things are at war with each other , or at least people think they're at war with each other .
But I'm hoping that you can share some optimism and light in saying that it is all possible , even with introverted tendencies .
Listen , I'm the biggest introvert there is . I live in a tiny town , I am the first one to hide in the bathroom at any kind of networking event , and I have figured this out . So , yeah , it's possible .
What's the difference between networking and sales , particularly as an introvert , if someone's going to label themselves fully as introvert ?
Oh , this is a good one . So here's the deal . I think networking has the worst name ever , because when you say networking , you automatically think a couple of things that I think are incorrect .
Number one you think about entering some sort of awkward room whether it be a digital room or a real room where you all of a sudden have to be the most charismatic person in the world and try to make friends with everyone in that room . That's wrong . I'll talk about that in a second .
And then the other issue is that you're thinking about trying to meet your actual clients . In that moment You're hoping you're going to run into somebody who's going to turn into business . I'm going to argue that's also wrong , based on everything that we know about networking , science and for a lot of very weird reasons .
I've spent a lot of time studying the science of how networks are built and what I would argue . What you want to be doing with networking and this will lead to your question about sales is in networking you want to be creating a stable group of probably 50 to 80 people that you know , who have access to your clients .
So the goal of your network first is to understand who should be in it . People need to earn a spot in your network and it shouldn't just always turn over . You should have a stable group and I actually say you should have a connection avatar , the same way you have a customer avatar .
You should know who you are trying to connect with and the people that you are trying to connect with should have access to your clients and the people that you are trying to connect with should have access to your clients , because then what happens in the sale is that you are getting some sort of very friendly introduction to your clients and then the sale
doesn't have to be you starting from cold every single time with your clients . You are basically using networking to engineer leads that look like referral leads , but you're putting yourself in a position to be proactive about that , rather than sitting around thinking , oh my God , I hope a referral comes in magically today to my inbox .
Now you mentioned in the outset there that the immediate visualization of a networking group or a networking meeting or just networking in general is like going to a group of 50 people you don't know , you're sweating , you're nervous and you got to introduce yourself .
But a network and I've really really thought about this more over the last recent years is that a network is just , in my perspective , relationships and a lot of them can be digital . Actually , most of my network is digital now . Most of my network I've never met in person be digital . Like , actually most of my network is digital .
Now , most of my network I've never met in person nowadays . Can you speak to that idea that networking is not just going to a networking group , or would you agree with that basically ?
Yeah , I think if you end up doing that , that should be the absolute last step in the process , and most of the time you shouldn't do it , because what you should do is start with who should be in my network . Again , like you , have a limited number of spots in your network . Your network is not everybody who follows you on LinkedIn .
Your network is we can get into the science more , but again , it's probably going to be like 50 to 80 people tops . Maybe only 20 people will change your business dramatically and the first thing you want to say is who should those people be ? Who do I want to meet ?
And then you go and find ways to create one-on-one relationships with people who fit that profile . And that's where I say walking into a networking event should be the very last thing you do if you're building a network , because you should only do that if that is the best possible way to meet the people who fit that profile that you've developed .
I think this is a great starting point , specifically for introverts , or , again , people with introverted tendencies , because what I feel like you're getting at is that it just makes sales easier and more comfortable when you have people you know and they know and like and trust you and they can introduce you .
And it's way easier than cold calling or going to a networking group of 50 or 100 people and saying Hi , I'm Josh , I do web design , so I love this idea because I do feel like creating a network or a series of relationships is the easiest way , as an introvert , to sell . I would love to dive into this idea of almost like a capped network .
I do like this frame because I feel like it makes sense that you're going to have it and I would imagine there's probably layers to this or levels to this where you have like a core group . I know , oddly enough , in my networking group we had core groups , which was basically they were referral partners .
So for me , I had an SEO guy , I had a videographer , digital marketing person , a few other people who were kind of adjacent to me and they were my best referral partners . But with this idea of 50 to 80 , can we dig into that ? What would be like the levels of this of your network ? Basically ?
Yeah . So let's go all the way back to the base research . An anthropologist in the UK discovered that through all of not only humans but also animals 150 is the max number of what he called stable relationships that you can maintain .
And so if you have 150 relationships that can be in your life and when I say stable relationships the way I've taken that is , you kind of remember their name , you know some basics of what's going on in their life , so you can only have 150 of those .
That's actually not that many , because that includes your family , your friends , your grocer , like your dog trainer , like anybody who is at all important to you .
So what I do with clients and the way I explain it is if we start with 150 , then we have to start peeling off all those personal layers and you end up with , you know , peeling off all those personal layers and you end up with maybe like 50 to 80 in business . But again , I've seen businesses dramatically change by having 10 .
And then you're right , there are layers . There's some other network research that shows you have what's called strong ties and weak ties . Your strong ties are those ties who are closest to you . Most people out of that 150 have max like five to 10 of these .
This is your spouse , your partner , your work wife or husband , whatever we want to call it , the people who know what you're up to 90% of the time , those are the people closest to you . Then everybody else are your weak ties . And those weak ties I think of to your point as Russian nesting dolls . There are like layers of them .
Some of the weak ties are at that closest layer and they're almost strong ties , and some are out on the periphery of your universe , if you will , and then there are people in between . But where we screw this up is those weak ties .
We're not intentional about them and that's why I harp on let's find the right 50 to 80 people , Because since the strong ties are so close to you , they're not going anywhere . They're always going to be there , but we don't prioritize the weak ties when we don't know they exist .
So what happens to those outer nesting dolls , those outer rings , is people float in and out and they don't have a permanent , intentional spot in your network . It just happens to be the people you've talked to in the last six months , and maybe they're the right people and maybe they're not . But when you can think through like what is my connection avatar ?
Who should be in my network ? Then you can purposely go find people who meet that profile and make them a weak tie of yours . You don't need to announce this to them , you don't need to tell them congratulations , you're my weak tie now You're on level five . Welcome in .
But you actually do probably want to write them on a spreadsheet and say these people are my weak ties . They are the ones who I am going to prioritize as maintaining a relationship with . Doesn't mean you have to talk to them daily .
You don't have to be their best friend , but you're not going to hope to run into them at the grocery store and hope you get lucky that they introduce you and remember someone could use your business . You're going to recognize that they are someone who can continually introduce you to people who need your business .
Therefore , they're going to be important and you are going to remember that they exist .
I'm fascinated by this . This is maybe the most difficult conversation so far on the podcast , because I have like nine different paths .
I want to dive into . There's a lot of them once you start knowing this exists . Yeah , I want to dive into it .
There's a lot of them once you start knowing this exists . Yeah , and I just want to say just I don't want to derail us because I really want to dig into how to find these referral partners and network and everything . But I will say this is something I took seriously a couple of years ago .
I thought about my immediate closest network and my referral partners myself . One thing I started doing , just to give a practical tip that some people may consider , especially for those 10 , 15 , 20 folks is I started just doing an annual personal video at around New Year or like before Christmas .
I have a list , I have a spreadsheet of my top 20 to 25 people who I interact with or want to maintain really stronger relationships with , and for the past couple of years I've sent a little Loom video that's two , three minutes , just saying hey , I really just appreciate you , I appreciate us working together and collaborating , and if we did do a collaboration ,
I would usually mention that , just say I want to support you in the new year and just thank you . And that has gone over so well . And it was the same principle I had when I was a web designer of over a decade is . I guess it's kind of parallel . I used to segment my clients .
I used to have A clients which were the absolute best , b clients which were pretty good , still want to maintain a good relationship with them , and then C clients who were like if they dropped no big deal , and then D clients who I would prefer them to not be clients anymore . Let's phase them out .
So it was that same approach with my network though , and it's really really gone a long way in keeping those relationships going . So , just as a quick practical plug , I would recommend doing that , doing something especially with those top , the top part of your network .
I absolutely love that idea and you hit on something that's really critical is , when I talk about this , people immediately panic and they're like you mean I have to talk about to these people all the time . How am I supposed to be maintaining these relationships ?
And the key is , if you decide that they're important , you are going to spend the time sending that three minute specific video and guess what ? That has stickiness , because nobody in our culture right now spends the time to connect with anyone . So you get to stick out like a sore thumb in a really good way .
You do the bare minimum and that's well above the bare minimum . That's going to stick with someone for nine months . You don't need to be coming up with small talk every month to remind them that you exist , because they will remember that interaction and it solidifies the relationship . Perfect example . It's almost like we teed that up , which we didn't .
But yeah , perfect , perfect example . And that's such a good point too , cause even in with friendships , I think people realize , as you , as you get older , family like we're just like I have three kids under six we're just freaking busy business to run . I'm just not talking to people all the time . It's not like in high school .
You have a best friend and you text every day . It's very . I feel like it's very rare that anyone has time for that type of relationship . But a lot of this stuff is like every couple months or maybe once every six months . It's kind of a joke . I do have a friend of mine . We used to be in a band together .
We just saw them over the weekend and we saw them twice in two weeks and I was like that's probably the first time in like three years that we saw them twice in two weeks . That's just not common . But you can still have a close relationship if it's intentional , I feel like .
So all that to say like yeah , it's not something , by having a core group or core network , it doesn't mean that it's going to be a daily thread or text or call or something .
No , and it becomes so much more manageable because it's not that many people you need to account for . So I always talk about like stop , drop and thank you . And I say that because I have this ridiculous dog that needs like three hours of walks a day .
So I remember things because I get bored on these walks and something will remind me of something and I'll remember someone and I will make myself a quick voice note like , oh , I remember this random moment that we shared two years ago or this random project we did , and I'll get back to my desk and I will shoot them a quick text or email or however we have
a conversation . I'll be like , oh my gosh , I was just walking , watson , and this reminded me of you and wasn't that a crazy time or wasn't that a whatever ? And again , that takes no effort on my part . It literally just pops in my brain because I'm not keeping track of that many people .
And then I can send that quick note and that cements the relationship for another six months , because who doesn't love to hear that they were thought of randomly on a dog walk at lunch ? Those are just fun memories to have come back and that actually does happen .
Naturally , people don't believe me , but it does happen , naturally when you're only keeping track of a certain number of people .
Now , I am no psychologist , but I've been alive for 37 years , I've worked with people for a long time , I've had two businesses , I've done a lot of networking .
I am a connector at heart and one thing I've realized is that introverts if we're going to label somebody fully an introvert is they do typically prefer to have a few relationships , but deeper relationships , whereas extroverts like myself I'm an extrovert for sure .
It's I gravitate towards just like meeting a lot of people and new , new , new , but then it's I have to like remind myself to reinvest in the important people . Sounds so mean , but it's true in this regard .
So I think for an introvert even more so , this is gold , because you could have 10 people that you talk to the most and then everyone else is kind of , yeah , your extended network or your fringe network .
Correct . But if I could jump in real quickly , the extroversion , because I know some of them are listening and you're one . I developed all this .
I started talking about this for introverts because I realized it is such an unfair advantage to have a network in your business that it kind of killed me to see the introverts just at that disadvantage , Because I'm like this is doable for you .
But I will say what has blown my mind is that when extroverts learn this , oh my goodness , like the results that happen because we put the natural skills to work in an organized way and they just take off .
If they can find that kind of , I always tell them I'm like you can have as many conversations as you want , but please stay true to that connection avatar and only really focus on the people who fit that avatar and that Extroverts do incredible if they understand this information and how to apply it .
This is really important , especially in business , because even before business like a real world example in my personal life , just this idea of like almost getting further and go in places further with a tighter group that you invest in .
A practical example I was notorious for just meeting a lot of new friends and being in a lot of different friend groups , whereas some of the people I knew they had their friend group and that was it . I had like eight different friend groups through high school and those years following .
But here's what was interesting is I really wasn't super deep with any of them and when my friends started getting married , this is when it was just like hit me like a bag of bricks is . I was always the next man up in joining a bachelor party , but I often didn't get invited . I was . They were like well , all the spots are already full .
You'd be like we were , like you're still .
you know you're basically in the party , but I was like yeah , yeah , there were like six or seven , you know , core groups for my core friends , for my friends , and then I was like the eighth or the ninth , like right outside , and this happened often , and that was the first time I realized like , wow , I'm really good at like making surfacy relationships , aside
from a few people , and I wasn't committed enough to like be in the core group in a lot of cases . And I think this really parallels with business , because a lot of people have their core groups and if you're not proactive , you do . You're like right there .
You're kind of on the sideline though , as far as not being included , but just being top of mind and being someone who is that you know good , that real , true partner .
Nailed it ? Yeah , absolutely , and so a little bit of discipline from the extroverts goes a really long way when you understand this , because it's easy for you to start the relationship .
So if we can get the correct ones started , and not just you meeting everyone because they're cool , we can get the correct relationship started and you to focus on those correct ones . It's really cool to see what happens .
So let's dive into these relationships . I would imagine this would be easier if you knew your exact customer avatar For me in my business . Now I know my avatar very well as far as my customers , their web design freelancers and agency owners , so I could pretty easily look at , like who's serving them , who could be my referral partners .
I tend to go organically with it . I'm not searching people to like try to connect with them necessarily , but if I were , I would know where to look as a web designer . Most I would know where to look as a web designer . Most web designers are just serving anyone and everyone , so where , like , who would be the ?
If you can , if you were to coach a web designer , who would you advise for them to start to build this network ? Like who would be the people to connect with ?
Yeah , that's a great question . Number one I mean , we look at who your clients are . Who else are they working with ? Right , and sometimes that can be in a niche space , like , if you're working with you know , wedding ecosystem is always the obvious one .
If you're the wedding DJ , you want to be connected with all the event planners or whatever , but if you're that web designer , that can look a lot of different ways . But , and so you want to look at , do you have any kind of niche and are there any other people supporting that niche ?
I mean , or who is supporting a niche that's close enough to who you're helping that their work would be better if their customers had a website . So one example would be business coaches . So if you are a web designer who is creating websites for entrepreneurs , one of my top referral partners .
Yeah .
Yeah , these business coaches have new business owners who have a million things on their plate and the business owners are trying to get them to market . And all this , and what is the business owner saying ? They're like oh , I don't have a website yet . Okay , well , you are going to make the business coaches work .
Go further If you can go in and get those people a website and so you would be an attractive referral partner there . So you want to be thinking about who else are they working with ? Who are they working with right before , right after you ? Or whose work can you make look better ? Frankly , by solving another problem . I'll use myself as an example .
I do have a networking course about this stuff , and so I have business coaches who license my course or send their people through my course because they know , first off , they don't want to touch and try to teach networking , but they know that their people will get way better results from their course if they go through my course , because then they'll have a
little bit of a direct-to-network , they'll have better leads . So you want to be thinking about , like , who can you make look good ? Because if you can make them look good , they're going to be excited to refer their clients to you .
And can we hit on this idea too of like almost direct competition , because I'm a huge fan of coopetition I don't know if you've heard that term , but I it's just something I absolutely live by and really really push all the members of my community to think about .
Uh , case in point , like I have a fellow web design business coach , shannon , who I'm going to introduce you , by the way , being a connector , I think you should definitely go on her podcast um , and we are very , very similar in the way of being fairly competent , like competition , to each other .
In fact , a lot of our members will go through both of our communities and both of our programs , but we do have differences , uh , in our programs and what we . We just met last week , so , very timely .
What we did in this last meeting was we looked at like everything that we're offering now , what we're doing in the future , and then where can I send people to her that she does , that I don't do , and where can she send people to my stuff that she doesn't cover , and we really got even clearer on this last meeting about exactly what I can offer , just like
you said , and actually a lot of my courses are going to be great for her to get people primed and ready to come up to her program . And there's some stuff that she goes way further into that I don't touch , I really don't have interest in getting into , and they'll be a perfect lead for her .
So that's just a practical example of how , even if it's a fellow web designer , you could look at , well , what services don't you offer , that I do , and vice versa , and it could be an incredible referral partner . You don't have to sell because they are getting the clients to the door . You just fulfill it and make it a win-win .
Absolutely so . I love that example . I have similar ones in my business . And again , when you're looking at those website designers who are the brand people who are doing big brand photography packages , who's doing copywriting , who else are people hiring at that moment when they're starting to think about their website ?
Those are great referral partners , because if somebody is investing in a big branding package , what are they about to do ? Right after they know what their brand is ? They probably want to build a website right , and so those are people to think about .
I have my tips for this next question for you here , but I want to hear , I want to give you the opportunity first to share some of your advice when it comes to actually meeting these people , because this all sounds great but you still , even as an introvert , have to build a relationship and make a connection .
Whether it's going to a networking group Although the beauty about this approach is , like you said in the very beginning , you're not going to sell , you're just going to meet people and to build a potential network , so you don't even there's no pressure but you still have to make a connection somehow .
What would you recommend , particularly for web designers who see a brand person or a logo designer and they want to work with them without coming across in a way that's like hey , got any work for me , I could do your websites . How would you advise that they start that relationship ?
Well , this is great when you have that connection avatar and you are clear about who you're looking for and why you want to connect with them . This is why I like it for introverts it takes the small talk out of it . Now you have a purpose behind your conversation .
So if you are going into one of these scenarios , you know the specific person that you want to meet , do a little bit of homework , give me 5-10 minutes before you actually meet them and go in there with a way to compliment them . Go in there with a way to say hey , I saw you doing this and it made me think this about my business .
Show that you've put in some effort and that you have taken in their work , that you understand why they're doing what they're doing , or something has influenced you in a positive way and made you think differently . People are flattered by that and it's a great conversation starter . Then you're not starting with how can we collaborate .
Instead , you are starting with wow , I really respect you because and that because is really important giving people a reason resonates with them . So , oh , I was able to see your stuff .
I resonate with you because this meant to me something , because and that's going to open a conversation , they're going to respect you as a peer in that moment because you're talking about their work , and that then naturally leads usually to conversations about oh how can we collaborate ?
Because that magical moment at the end of the conversation of how can I help you , that we never know how to fill in . Now there's going to be a natural way to fill it in because you've built a little bit of rapport and at the end you can say well , I wonder if there's a way for us to collaborate .
You don't have to end it with can you send me clients ? You can end it with is there a way for us to collaborate or to support each other ?
I also feel like it's best to have a low pressure , low stakes , beginning to the relationship . It's a lot like dating . Like when I met my wife , I didn't go up to her and be like all right , marriage , kids , is on the line . Let's go out for the first time together . No , it was like let's go out and just hang out and see if we like each other .
You basically test the waters , like is there chemistry ? The same thing is true for referral partners . I feel like , whether it's a test project or a one-off project or just kind of a trial , however you want to phrase it that's kind of my recommendation is go into it with like no expectations .
Like don't go to a you know , an SEO person and be like hey , huge opportunity for you . I'm a web designer , I , you could grow your business if I was in your corner . And then suddenly it's just like oh , there's pressure . And then it's kind of icky feeling . It's also uncool , it's like dude , like really it's like a cold pitch basically .
So that's kind of how I feel about that is to start low pressure and low stakes . How do you feel about that , or is there any advice that you would give on that ?
I 100% agree . I talk about that as the importance of small asks . So we screw up in building a relationship . We screw up , we overcorrect , in one of two ways . Either you never ask for anything and then it's just all this awkward conversation that's going nowhere and the person is wondering when is the brick going to fall ?
Or you ask for too much , too soon , whereas if you think about an actual relationship developing I love that example of your wife or I often talk about toddlers who , if you ask them to do the smallest thing , like can you please move the sippy cup from one counter to another they are so proud of themselves and they become so bonded to you by completing a
little task for you . People naturally want to help , but we are scared to ask for help or we ask for too much , whereas if you can ask for those little things , like you said , like a test project or can we do a little something or we do then you build up . Then you naturally get to the bigger asks .
The other thing people screw up is they will ask for something that's too hard and then people will feel bad . So that big question of can you send me a client A lot of times it's just the wrong thing to ask because it's too soon .
But also , even if somebody really likes you and it's time to ask for that , that is a really hard ask in the moment because the odds that they actually know someone in that moment are pretty low . Even if it's somebody who's perfectly aligned , do they have a client at the exact right timing and all those things have to line up .
So if you're asking for that too soon , it can actually make people feel bad and then they almost want to ghost you because they want to help so bad and they're thinking like , oh crap , I don't have somebody to send them right in this moment , so I can't talk to them again until I can somehow rustle up a lead for them .
And you want to think about these small asks ? Yeah , build up to it .
There's also no trust yet when you meet somebody . I mean one thing I did learn in my networking group , which was very similar to BNI . It was kind of an offshoot , so it was a referral group . It wasn't . It was much more than just networking . It was a referral group .
But one thing we learned is that we looked for folks who were going to commit for a while , because I'm not going to send my network to somebody's way who I just met once , especially if it's like life insurance or something that they're , you know , like it's a long potential relationship with somebody .
So , yeah , it does take a little bit of trust building before you're likely going to get a good lead . Unless it is something small , if it's a business card design or like a one landing page design . But if it is like , yeah , if you ask , hey , do you have any clients who need a website Like well , that's a huge potential investment .
I need to get to know you first . Can you build a really good website ? Let me look at your stuff first . So all that to say there , I feel like managing expectations on timing in this is important too .
A hundred percent . And yeah , understanding that building trust actually takes some small asks along the way . So trust is not always built just through endless conversation . It's built through tiny little favors that are done and appropriately asked for .
So I feel like we've kind of covered a lot of the tips , for I guess we'll call them you know , like your 12 disciples , you know , like you're like your immediate 10 to 15 person network , that you're going to have core group referral partners , stuff like that . But what about this next phase , the next level behind that ?
I mean as a web designer , this is where I think it gets even more tricky , because it would be easier to look for SEOers , graphic designers , digital marketers , business coaches , stuff like that . But who would be the next level out ? Are we talking your own clients ? Are we talking friends and family ? Who's the next level ?
You know , who's like the 20 to 50 ?
Yeah , the 20 to 50 . Well , if you start to get into the 20 to 50 , it's likely your business is starting to grow and so you're looking for how can I have more visibility , how can I have more scale . Maybe you're starting to build a team or something like that , and so you start getting into a category .
I call people who know , people who can start positioning you , making some introductions . Maybe you're doing your first speaking gig , or maybe you're doing your first teaching of some kind I don't know how your clients expand or maybe they're starting to think about building an agency and so you're starting to look at people who can take you to that next step .
Who's going to open the next door for you ? It starts to be less about referral partners and starts to be more about who can open a next level of door . Who's going to be a connector to that person who's really scary but could push your business to the next level .
And so maybe , even if you're not changing your business model , you're not trying to grow , trying to bring in higher quality clients who's going to open the door to , frankly , a better referral partner ? Who's going to bring in clients who pay a bigger bill , right , who are looking for a bigger project , looking for better quality .
That's what that next layer starts to look like is who can expand the scope of what's possible .
This idea of the like 50 to 80 , would that include clients ? Because I would imagine , especially for a web designer , the beauty is you don't need that many clients typically , especially if you're doing a lot for them to make a nice healthy six , multi , six figure business . But I'm wondering , like would you have almost a separate list of ?
Because clients can be connectors and can be very useful for your network . That was my whole deal is . I just basically relied on referrals for my entire business growth , but I was and I did learn to be very proactive on that . So would they be considered in this 50 to 80 ? Or would this be separate from clients ?
Yeah , it's yes or no . I think clients again have to earn their right into your network and so I love how you described you kind of A , b , c and D clients , and I would be looking at all of my clients through the lens of do they fit some sort of profile that shows me they are likely to have referrals for me ?
If they are , then they would have two identities In my world . I would separate those in my brain .
They're both a client who obviously gets my attention while we're doing the active project but maybe doesn't have a perfect spot in my network , or are they a client and a person who's in my network and those are actually separate identities for me to help me keep those , help me kind of keep up the discipline of making sure I don't assume every client is going
to have referrals for me . I bet if you look back you could look at profiles of clients and you could build the profile of someone who's likely to refer you to their friends and somebody who is likely not , either because they're just not in that space or they're just not of that mindset .
And vice versa . Yeah , Like easier . Like the people who I worked with , who are paying clients , who I really liked their service and referred people to them , that kind of bridged the gap to that relationship is suddenly they were more than just paying client , they were actually I was a referral partner for them in some ways too .
Yeah , I think it's , and the reason I separate that in my brain is I think it's a dangerous habit to get into to assume your clients are going to refer their friends and that's something that is really easy to slip into a mindset because it's comfortable and you can just live in that world and so having that discipline of making them earn their way into is
good to think through that . So they certainly can be , but it's not going to be 100% .
We've hit a lot of strategies for this , but I'm kind of curious what are ? Well , I'll just lay it out there . What are introverted sales strategies ?
Introverted sales strategies . Honestly , it's to not have to have a sales conversation , and the reason I say that and what I'm thinking is all of what we've been talking about is my way of creating leads that look like referrals when they come in . And if you think about what a referral sale looks like , I keep using my example . I'm looking out the window .
I had to replace a very old driveway this summer . I have no idea how to hire a concrete contractor . I don't know what that looks like , but my neighbors had done it five years ago . They love their driveway , so I just said who was your person .
They raved about them , so I called them up and they would have had to screw up really badly in those conversations for me to not hire them . No desire to call 10 different concrete contractors . So that's what a referral lead looks like At the moment . I met that person .
They had to screw up in the sales process and that's what I want introverts to have and that's why I teach networking .
The way that I do is if you have a connection avatar and that person is sending you people or that person is putting you in front of their audience and saying , teach my people for an hour , you are having the same impact on them that you would have if a referral came in , because after that interaction , somebody's going to have introduced you that they already
trust . So there's what I call a trust transfer is already put on top of you and you're getting the benefit of the doubt . And then you spend time with them and they're like , wow , this person really knows what they're talking about . Now I'm going to have to screw up the sales process . I have just completed 85% of the sale on that initial reaction .
And so , again , if somebody raises their hand after that and says I would like to work with you , which happens after you've spent that kind of time with someone , I got to screw it up . Really bad , and that's what I want introverts to be .
That's the situation I want you to be in when we reverse that trend , which is what a lot of what I call traffic marketing does the mass marketing . When you're on like social media and a lead comes in with no loyalty to you , now you're like trying to climb up . You know , like push a boulder up a mountain .
You have to do so much work and that's when it gets weird for introverts . So let's just get rid of that and put more effort into the impact we're having when we meet people and just take it off the plate . That might sound naive , but it's how it works .
No , I love this . I totally agree . There really is a difference between traffic leads in every step of the customer journey . Also , the other caveat to that is there's hot and cold on every one of those . There's hot traffic and cold traffic . There's hot leads and cold leads . Yeah , I just steer away from anything cold .
I just think it's such a better way to live . Whether you're extra and I'm extroverted like I would be fine , but I hate selling when somebody doesn't want it or doesn't need it . And to your point , the driveway thing like you needed a driveway , you wanted to talk with somebody .
Now , if that driveway person said , hey , can you introduce me to your entire neighborhood and let me see if they need a driveway , if they were like hey , michelle , you got to talk to this guy , you could probably use a new driveway .
I'm guessing you probably wouldn't be interested in moving forward with a five or 10 or 20 , $30,000 job at however big the driveway is . But he was top of mind and when that need came you went right to them and then boom , yeah , like you said , it was probably I didn't do anything to have to sell , like you were already sold .
He just needed to give you the quote .
So , yeah , he needed to really really screw up . And then , by the way , two other neighbors did ask me who I was using , so it continued . But you're right , they would have never . I would have never introduced them and walked down the street telling those neighbors . But again , as I walked the dog , everyone was like who are you using ?
That looks pretty good .
And this is where I get hung up personally on this , because , as much as I do recommend to my members to stay proactive and prompt your clients to Does anyone need a website ? I don't want to force clients to try to sell for me . My bigger thing is just stay top of mind .
It's actually why I think there's even more so , a really big need and a lot of my members are doing this is to have a monthly newsletter where you're just top of mind . So when that lead does come , when you did go over to your neighbors and say , hey , who was your driveway person ? Boom , it's there . Same thing for web designers .
When a web designer's client in their network , somebody in their network , says my website is terrible , I would love to get a new one . They're like , oh , I got a guy , josh and his team will take care of you . Boom , hot lead . All I have to do is give them a quote and sell from there , but not in a salesy way .
So , yeah , I just really wanted to flesh that out , because that's such a big difference . There's hot and there's cold . There's traffic , there's lead . There's all these intricacies with somebody who may or may not pay you . But , man , if you can do it in a way that is a referral-based warm . I like what was it ? Referral sales .
I want to engineer leads that act like referrals yeah , so that you can be more proactive about it and not sit around and wait and hope that referral comes in , but instead say I can take these actions , I know I can go speak to a group , I know I can go do this , this and this , and that will result in a lead that acts like a referral lead .
Yeah , what are some more tips for staying top of mind ? Oh yeah .
I love these . I call these signs of life . So we have those couple of categories . We talked at the very beginning about how you cement that relationship by sending those specific notes , and that seals the deal . But then you still want to have signs of life throughout the year , and so , I think , presence on social media .
I am not a big believer that social media is going to sell anything for you , and this is where it's clear what job are things doing ? We talk a lot about ? Oh , you need to be on Instagram or LinkedIn or wherever your people are , and people immediately think that means I'm generating leads from there .
I'm like , no , I haven't posted on social media in years , but I do spend time in DMs catching up with people , or what I should be doing is posting occasionally on LinkedIn so people remember that I exist . I am not asking LinkedIn to produce leads for me . I don't have that expectation of it , but it would be a good recall . I am alive , I'm still here .
The newsletter does the same thing , and so thinking about some of maybe those strategies that we tend to think about as mass marketing , but instead , how can they be used as signs of life ? I'm still here , keep me top of mind and only have that expectation . So all of a sudden , I'm still here , keep me top of mind and only have that expectation .
So all of a sudden , I don't have a content calendar . That is making me post 14 times on LinkedIn . I honestly had a client once who was told to post about all the birds they see in their backyard in order to fill up their LinkedIn profile . You don't need to be doing that , but do it enough so that it does the job of reminding people that you exist .
That is a biggie . There too , especially , I've seen this happen to where , when referral partners are the biggest lead generation for a web designer in particular , they often tend to , because referrals are like rain Sometimes there's no rain and you're hunting for leads .
Sometimes a lot of rain comes and then you are busy for months , maybe just catching up to referral partner leads , but then when you're dry , your pipeline is dry again . You haven't marketed for three months . So , everyone on the outside world hasn't seen a thing , and then you almost have to reignite those strategies .
So I definitely agree as much as I push and recommend the organic referral approach , I like the signs of life . I push and recommend the organic referral approach . You do , I like the signs of life .
I do like a trinkle , at least once a month , something to show that you're , whether it's a before and after or a project , not even sale , like you don't have to sell anything , but just post your work , share what's working , share a tip , something where you're active , whether it's email , whatever social media platform . Yeah , that sign of life .
I'm absolutely going to rip that off .
I'll give you credit for sure , please do , because it gives you that unfair advantage . Right , if you put in that work up front to meet people with impact like again whether it's a lead or whether it's prioritizing your network that thing is solidified so it takes so much pressure off of you .
When you do get busy in the busy season , like you can find the time to slap up one LinkedIn post a month or send out one newsletter a month , you can do that during the busy season . But if all of a sudden you have to send out one a week or two a week or whatever it is , that becomes really , really hard .
So again , it's just giving yourself the unfair advantage from the start to kind of let you get away with murder later on , where you can start doing the bare minimum because things have been solidified , and so then you are just reminding people you exist and the burden of that is so much less than continually trying to sell yourself to them .
So every introvert who thinks about posting on social media immediately goes to oh my God , I don't want to dance on TikTok and point to authors .
Have you heard myself ? I always make them like well , I'm not going to tell you to dance on TikTok .
So I know that's a cliche now , but it is true . Most introverts are like oh , I don't want to do videos and posts on social media . So what are some good content types or strategies for introverted folk ?
Well , if you're in the business model where you don't need a ton of leads , honestly it's hanging out in the DMs and , again , taking that same idea where we talked about to introduce yourself to someone or to catch up with someone , send them something specific in the DMs , like oh , I saw you talking about this and it meant this to me , and that's where I
spend 99% of my social media time is just reconnecting with people in the DMs . Now , you can't do that at scale , but if you only need to be remembering a few people , it's completely doable . And then it doesn't have to be this huge content strategy . It is literally just popping in and saying hello to people .
And that , again , is doable for introverts because it's deep relationships , right . They can ask how something is going they have probably remembered what is going on in that person's life or they can ask some sort of follow-up question , and that is .
I find that introverts have a better return spending their time there than trying to produce interesting content for the masses , because they freeze up and it just gets awkward and weird .
And on that note I'm making some notes . This is great . Would that be considered signs of life , or would signs of life be more public facing ? So even a second , a backup question to that would be what are the public facing signs of life for an introvert ?
Yeah , public . Those can . Just those are tend to be public posts because you just want to remember everyone who maybe you're not connecting with at that moment . You want them to remember you , but then it doesn't have to go viral . Again , it's what is the job doing . You don't need that profile or that post to introduce you to new people .
You just need it to remind the people who are closest to you that you exist . And so guess what algorithms are probably going to show that post to those people because of how you're connected .
Whether it's witty and viral or not , it's probably going to get through the algorithm just because you have interacted enough , and so it can just be an anecdote about life , a catch up on what you're doing . Again , the burden of it being brilliant is much lower .
It can be average content and it will still reach the people that it needs to reach , who already respect you . You don't have to convince them of anything with the post . It is literally just a sign of life .
That's a good point . There , too , there's a difference between social media content for new followers , with that as the goal , versus just connecting with your current folks . My social media right now is literally the latter .
I am just not doing new content for social , for new followers , and I , oh gosh , this is important because and I see a lot of my students struggle with this if they're not getting big follower counts , it's like that's not the goal for you as a web designer , 60 people may be more than enough for a six-figure business for you , and I really had to remind
myself when I see other web designers who have crossed 100K on YouTube subscribers or like some similar web design coaching course communities and stuff , who have like a million followers , I'm like , oh my gosh , I have like 1500 . But I'm not intentionally creating content on social , at least for new followers .
I've chosen podcast as my biggest one , and it's not as much as a discovery platform , although it is becoming more and more . I am finding most people are searching Spotify and Apple for web design podcasts and there's like three , so I'm always at the top . Now We've reached number one , but that's what I've dedicated my outreach to as far as like discovery .
But the rest of my social media and even my newsletter . It's basically just connecting with my current , with who's in my sphere . So I think it's an important distinction to for folks who are posting content like don't worry about followers , worry about interaction , engagement , connection , and also you never know who's going to see a post .
And like I'm not much of a liker on posts , I'm kind of more like oh , I see a lot of stuff , but you never know who's going to convert just by seeing something too , even if you have 40 people .
Exactly exactly , and that's I call that like sequence over strategy more important the order in which you do things than the things that you do , and in which you do things than the things that you do . And so many times we default . Like social media oh , obviously that needs to be thinking about viral and new people .
No , like , it's very normal that social media would just would have a different job , and that job is just to keep you in touch with people you already know , and it's such a different game .
If you are playing the social media game to gain followers , there's a completely different game than playing it to stay top of mind with people who are already connected with you .
I needed to hear this one today . This is half therapy session because I really . I really like , for whatever reason , I've just been like pulled to like create a bunch of new content , but I'm like I'm not . I mean , eventually I might go that route for even if it's seasonally , but I'm just like I just have so many other things going on .
I have an incredible network I want to develop . You know , devote more to this podcast . I have a community that's growing , like that is I'm actually . Really .
After talking with Shannon last week , I'm like this reminded me I need to really get going further with referral partners because with my size of my network now I can take I could find 10 people who are right around my level with audiences , with other web designers at different levels , and I can invest into them and probably expand my reach a hundred times than
trying to boost my Instagram and start posting reels and content on Instagram , like I could absolutely go way further faster with referral partners . So I hope that resonates with other people who are in that same boat .
I hope so too , and I think it's normal that you get sucked into that , because if you look at the marketing education that's out there and I have so much respect for you that you're teaching it differently but if you look at the marketing education that's out there , 99% of it is talking about content and finding your followers that way , and there's like 50% of
businesses that that's not right for . But we don't teach those tactics of how to build relationships because it's nuanced and it's hard to Google and you can't teach it in 10 steps .
And so all the folks whose businesses are more in alignment with what I call relationship marketing versus I call the other stuff , traffic marketing , for the businesses who are in alignment with relationship marketing , it is so easy for us to get sucked into those traffic strategies because it's all you see talked about .
And so even if you're doing relationship marketing , even if you're prioritizing your network , you don't feel like you're quote , unquote marketing . So you're like , oh , I need more leads , I better start marketing . No , you're already marketing , you just need to do it a little bit better or more strategically .
You don't need to overcorrect into all of these content strategies that are designed to get you 10,000 , 100,000 followers a year . What are you going to do with those people you don't need ?
them and I just pulled up a recent newsletter I kicked out because this is very timely with this topic . I talked about vanity metrics recently and really because I've kind of been going through this where I'm like and I'll just kind of summarize what I said here my podcast has actually stayed around the same download range . It trickles up .
But podcast is a very , very different game because it's just a different type of medium long form . So you're not going to have like massive growth typically , unless you get featured somewhere or it kicks off . So it's stayed about the same . My YouTube channel has hovered around the same subscriber list about 34,000 or 35,000 .
My email list has actually stayed around the same around 10,000 plus , just because I haven't really pushed it much . As I mentioned , my Instagram is around the 1,500 follower count . My Facebook has been around 3000 for years and I looked at all this . I'm like gosh .
I've really stayed stagnant over the past couple years with almost all of this , almost all my numbers . These vanity metrics have stayed the same . But there's one number that has gone up tremendously over the past couple years and it's my recurring revenue .
And I don't have a visual right here , but my recurring revenue has done this continually over the past two years . It's actually tripled from two years ago . So that's the only metric matter that matters to me . So I would just encourage everyone to think about that .
Like , don't worry about the vanity metrics , especially with this idea of networking and referral partners and being more introverted . Like that's not the game you're playing . If your numbers are going up and if you have deeper relationships with five people , that is a win . In my book .
I was going to say I might be doing the math wrong and you can call me on it , but it sounds like that recurring revenue started to go up about the time you told me you started to focus on your relationships .
Wow , you're exactly right .
Oh , interesting , I didn't even think about that , but you're totally right .
It was a more concerted effort . Also , even apart from my relationship directly with referral partners , it was also my audience . I started to really think about how can I do more for my audience ? How many people are like on the fence to actually joining my community ? What can I do for them ? Versus just seeking new people .
Basically , I do feel like it's common for any business . Even as a web designer , you'll likely get to a point where you don't really need to find new people as much . You just need to invest in your current people . Or if you invest in your referral partner network , that will bring your new people .
And then you invest in your referral partner network , that will bring your new people . And then that's the oh , my gosh .
For an introvert I tell this all the time to introverts I'm like what you do in the first couple years of your business with growing your network and any marketing that you do is going to pay off for a long time and then you can basically stop hunting all the time for cold outreach stuff .
You are going to continue to market but in a way that you have your network built . There's going to be multiplying effects on those relationships that you build and , by the way , as an introvert , you are going to build deep relationships . So you are going to be the hero of all those people because you're going to show up for them .
They're not going to forget about you , they're going to prioritize you because you're going to show up for them in such a way that's going to be different from everybody else , and so your multiplying effects can even be more dramatic than average .
Let's wrap . This has been great , michelle . This is , I mean , oh my gosh Again . I could go into like nine different avenues on this , but I really really like this idea . I think it's really important to even this time . I mean this , this episode will come out um fall here in 2024 .
So , as we , I mean honestly , I don't think there's a better time to invest in relationships than leading up to the holidays , because some people are going to start to slow down . Most people aren't thinking about new projects in December , uh , in particular .
So , like ending the year with this personal touch and these , these ideas and these strategies , and then kick it off in the new year again , staying top of mind and investing in your , your core relationships , I think it's very timely that we're , that we're digging into this , and you said it a little bit ago people just don't do this anymore .
Like , let me ask you , when's the last time somebody sent you a personal video just to say thank you ?
Oh , it's been a couple of years and I actually remember it . But can I share a crazy story that I track of this so I teach ?
You know , I have a webinar that I teach and I go and teach it in front of other audiences and it's talking about all this and in that video I teach them about this thank you note approach of how to thank people in a specific way so they're remembered , blah , blah , blah .
And at the end I say I'm going to invite you all to connect with me on LinkedIn , but if you connect with me , you have to use the thank you note format , which takes five seconds to fill out , and you just need to tell me one thing that you took away from this training , otherwise I'm not going to accept your invite and from this training , otherwise I'm
not going to accept your invite . And let me tell you , after those , it'll be 1,000 , 2,000 people on those trainings I will get a slew of people connecting me on LinkedIn . I am not kidding you . Less than 5% take the time to tell me one thing that they learned on the training . It is amazing .
You have just sat through this training , I've just handed it to you and you could literally pick out anything that you took of it . It could be three words . That's all I need you to include beyond the normal LinkedIn connection . No one takes the time .
So if it's that direct of a moment where you have that opportunity to thank me in a way that I just specifically told you how to do it as a way to help you learn this skill , you can imagine the general public if my rate is about 3% of people doing it , then the general public nobody does it .
It's less than 1% of the people who take this effort and so if you take , it's literally it's the bare minimum . At this point , the bar is so freaking low that if you take an extra 30 seconds , you will stick out like a sore thumb in a very positive way . That will have you remembered . So why would you not take that advantage ?
This is not something you need to spend a day on . It's 30 seconds . Please , please , please , grab that advantage that you get by just scaling this bar that society has put so freaking low . It can't even be defined how low it is right now . Sorry , that was a little bit of a rant , but it amazed me every time I'm like nobody takes this effort .
I recently wrote about this and the title in my newsletter was just called no One Does this . And I think about that often . And if anyone were to just ask yourself , like what is just no one else doing ?
Personal videos for sure as a whole , whether it's on a proposal , whether it's on a followup , definitely whether it's just a thank you with no upsell , no nothing , just uh , just uh . I've really enjoyed working with you . You mean a lot to me and I really appreciate you . No one does that . It's very easy to do . You could do it in bulk .
You could take a couple hours and have a half or a dozen or two dozen little videos to send to people . It will blow their mind , it will rock their world and no one does it . So I definitely recommend everybody . I used to do personal written letters to my A clients every Christmas . No one did that .
I was shocked about how many clients told me I can't believe you actually took the time and mailed it , and so , yeah , I would just recommend everyone have a practice and ask yourself no one does this . What is no one else doing ?
Those two things there you're good , and what you just said there giving somebody , something that just almost puts a barrier to hear . You're almost filtering out the serious people or the people who are likely going to move forward in some way or connect with you .
So I really like that approach and just asking yourself like no one does this , what's something that no one else is going ?
to do . Yeah , and it's so odd that it was remembered in dramatic ways then , because it's easy to see it right , even if it is in the mess of social media messages that come in or in the mess of email , like you notice , that one that stands out because it is so different and so it does actually get noticed .
And again , as a you know , for more introverts it's like you can , instead of putting creativity and your energy into marketing you could for new people you could like . Well , what can I do for just 20 people ? What can I do ? What can I do for them ? Get creative and I'm sure you could think of something that would blow their mind . Get Post-its .
I got Post-its with my company name on it , sent them out to my people and I was on his podcast . He sent me this little coaster . No one had sent me a coaster in five years . I was on his podcast before I started a podcast and I was like , ooh , I like this approach . Haven't implemented it myself .
There's some logistics to this , but he wasn't connecting with a whole lot of people , so this was a really good approach for him , because I see this coaster and I think about Jimmy and Content Snare approach for him , because I see this coaster and I think about Jimmy and content snare .
So , whether it's a gift , whether it's something as an introvert , is there any anything better for an introvert ? Just to you know , focus on deeper relationships . I feel like .
Exactly , and there's such a win-win there . Yeah , you're going to get multiplying effects , it's so it really is a superpower .
I know that that can be overused , but it really is . If you're connecting with the right people , um , you're going to have an impact . Introversion is a superpower , that's for sure . Yeah , and in fact , like you said earlier , as a testament to that , as a self-proclaimed extrovert , if I were to label myself I have to think more introverted .
I have to think about what . Yeah , you know , wwid , what would an introvert do here ? they probably spend time . Instead of going to a party and talking to 25 people for two minutes , they'd probably go to a party and talk to one person for an hour .
I laugh often . I have gone to many a conference where I wanted to meet one or two people and I had a laser focus strategy to meet those two people and the rest of the time I was hiding in my hotel room doing my thing because I don't want to go to all the cocktail hours and all the networking like terrifies me .
But I met the two people who are important and we made amazing things happen , you know , over the over the course of the next few years . And so there's there's power in that . If you know what you're doing like , if you're clear first , who am I trying to meet ?
What am I , why am I meeting them , you can really tap into your introversion and make it work for you .
One final question here for you , Michelle . Before we get to that , though , where should people go to check you out and to connect with you ?
Yeah , you can connect with me over on themichellewarnercom . There's a lot of resources there . You can jump on the email list . I have a free monthly roundtable actually , where everybody comes in and we talk about concepts like this . Everybody comes in and we talk about concepts like this . I answer a bunch of questions and then I do have a podcast as well .
I use this as a little bit of a reference library . It's called Sequence Over Strategy and I just talk through a lot of these different strategies , answer people's live questions and we talk through business-related questions about networks and relationships and how to make this all work for you .
Yeah , this has been great . I've really again , really really enjoyed this . The psychology of business people is basically the corporate term for this . Like this is . I've really really enjoyed this . I think this is gonna help a lot of people .
I wanna just end this with I feel like in the digital age , there's actually more and more room for introverts to to excel because , like I don't know how you feel being in person , but like we're doing this on a on a zoo , on a Riverside call the barrier to entry . It's just a lot easier for introverts , I feel like , because you can do a call .
Sometimes you don't even need to be on camera and you could just do a call and do a screen share or something . I want to lay it out for you . I guess the question is do you have an encouraging mentor minute for introverts and the opportunities now for introverts ?
Yeah , Listen , I live in a tiny town on Lake Michigan and I have a thriving business . For the past 14 years . That would not be possible without digital connection and virtual connection . So it's absolutely possible . And just know that there are systems , there are relationships that you can build and you don't need to know thousands of people .
You can use all of your skills . You can have a purpose around . A conversation that you're having can win people over with the amount that you care about them and have those right one , five , 10 relationships that will change everything in your business . I've seen it over and over again . Again .
I've been doing this for 14 years and I've just seen that consistently that it , like all the business models , are possible for you . All the dreams are possible for you . But you do need a network . But you can think about that network in a different way that is doable for you .
Boom Great way to cap this one off , michelle , thank you so much for your time . I really really enjoyed this , your insight on this stuff . I think we're going to reference a lot , so really appreciate you coming on . I think we've helped a lot of people .
Look , a lot of the introvert people may not reach out , but here's the recommendation Even if you're introverted , reach out . I know we'd love to hear a takeaway or a win and we'll have all your links and resources in the show notes for this one . So I really appreciate your time , michelle .
Oh my gosh , it was a pleasure . Thank you so much for having me . This was really fun .
Well , my introverted friends especially , I hope this helped you . Even if you're not fully introverted , you may have aspects of being an introvert that creep up from time to time in sales . So I hope what we covered helps you . Again , so many options , depending on your personality type that suit you for selling websites .
So I would love to hear from you I know Michelle would as well Drop us a comment at joshhallco slash 355 . We'd love to hear from you . I do read all the podcast comments that come in . I'd love to hear from you as far as which one of these tactics helped you and gave you some good inspiration to get going on selling .
And again , there are a ton of resources for you for selling that Michelle has for you at her website . You can connect with her at themichellewarnercom . She's got some free resources and a networking course . Both of those will be linked at joshhallco slash 355 .
And , as a reminder , if you have not yet been through my business course , it's really going to help you with sales because it's got everything you need to feel confident with selling websites and having a client experience from start to finish . So sales are easy peasy because you've got the process to back it up .
So , just as a reminder , you can get access to my business course and all of my courses now inside of Web Designer Pro . Go to Web Designer Pro dot com and if you just want to get started with courses , join the courses tier . Forty nine bucks a month , all my courses , including the business course .
As a bonus , right now , you'll also get access to the private Pro podcast feed that has all of my coaching calls , all of our monthly trainings and oh so much more . So it's a steal of a deal , friends . I hope to see you in there and , gosh , have some fun getting confidence in your sales .
All right , friends , make sure to subscribe and I will see you on the next episode . We've got some doozies coming up , some super fun ones , to end off the year here , so stay subscribed .