A lot of the designers I've been working with lately , we've been working on saying less , like saying enough , saying it all but saying less . How can I say what I want to say in less words ? Because , to your point , I think that attention spans , whether I want to admit it or not , are getting shorter and shorter .
But that's where I rely on a designer to help break up any blocks of text , which I try to avoid blocks like giant blocks of text . But I do think that the two go hand in hand and I love when a client does not have a website designer . It's actually very sad because they don't know how to implement it properly . You guys have a knack .
I don't know how you do it , but you see a Google doc and you're like I know exactly how this should look on a website and I really , really genuinely appreciate that , because I do think the two go hand in hand .
Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast with your host , josh Hall . Helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love . Helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love . Welcome , friends , to the Web Design Business Podcast . If you are a new listener , welcome in .
Great to have you here . If you are a regular listener , welcome back . We are actually getting back to some interviews . The past couple episodes have been solo specialty episodes , so we're getting back to some interviews here , starting with this one with the topic of personalized copy and how it can help you sell more websites .
The reality is , ai has been here for a while and it just still and I don't know if it ever will be able to beat human . We've had well over a year with chat , gpt and other large language models and it just , even if you try to get it to be fancy and funny , it just doesn't beat being human .
Human copy , with its flaws , oddities and , most importantly , real world experience , it just beats out on AI and just content like corporate content or stale content .
So what we're going to dive into in this episode is going to help you in every aspect of your writing homepages , service pages , lead generators , blog posts , email sequences , sales posts for your marketing Every bit of writing you do really want to encourage you to be more personal with it and this episode is going to help you with that .
So excited to bring on Emily Aborn , who is a copywriter . Aborn , who is a copywriter , she is a podcaster and a speaker and she works with a lot of designers to help them make sure that their copy converts and leads to more sales .
So in this one we're going to get into her take as a copywriter on where AI is now and whether we should be concerned about it . Moving forward as far as taking over our copy , how and where to actually personalize your content and your copy . How far is too far with creating personalized copy . Where is that line ?
I always tend to sometimes go right over that line . Sometimes the superpower of being brief and using brevity by saying more with less words , especially nowadays . And then story how important story is and how that can be a high converter for you and your business . Now , all of those topics and more are covered in this one .
The show notes for this episode you can get at joshhallco slash three , five , three . There'll be a full transcription and all of our links there and again . If you'd like to connect with Emily , go to her website , emilyaborncom , and she is the host of the content with character podcast , which I'd recommend checking out . All right , let's talk copy with Emily .
Here we go . Emily , it's so great to have you on the show . Just let you know before we went live . I had a water spill leading up to this , but we are we're making do spilled water on my keyboard but hey , luckily my mouth still works and we're up . So thank you for bearing with me and welcome to the show . We're undrowning you .
Thank you so much for having me , josh . I'm excited to be here . We should have recorded what we talked about before going live . We probably could have got a sponsorship with Apple . We were sharing about how many water mishaps we've had with our devices . I've swam last year with my iPhone in my pocket for five minutes . It ended up being fine .
I put my AirPods through the washer before and they've been fine . You dropped yours in tea , so in a cup of tea . So good on Apple for for a waterproof stuff . Well , I'm really excited to chat with you about copy .
I feel like you're probably um , probably preaching to the choir here , but you're probably in an interesting situation as a copywriter , especially with AI , where you tell me do you feel like it's , perhaps maybe there's more of an opportunity than ever to talk like you like , bring your personality into your content .
Yes , 100% is . That's what I'm feeling with the AI sort of trend is when somebody says to me actually somebody came recently and we were doing her website , so it was exciting .
Her goal was to infuse personality in her website , but then she sent me something that was quote , unquote her brand voice and she said chat GPT wrote about this service that I offer and it's my brand voice , it's fitting to my brand voice . And I read it and I was like that's not a brand voice , that is a chat GPT voice . It's fitting to my brand voice .
And I read it and I was like that's not a brand voice , that is a chat GPT voice . So , kindly , obviously , I kind of said would you be open to bringing a little bit more of your personality into it and more of the less vague language ? Because chat GPT is very good at using vague or cliche language like up-level step into .
You know like it uses all the same phrases . Authentic is a good one . So she was very open to it and it was a great opportunity to show her , like , the difference in when it sounds like you and when it sounds like Chatute .
But yeah , it's my biggest frustration , right now , what's the difference , what's the distinction between a brand voice and just personality of an entrepreneur or an owner or freelancer ?
Sometimes there's no difference . If you are , for example , a solopreneur , your brand voice is probably going to be a whole lot like your personality . Mine is , for sure , the person I just did a kickoff call with , moments before meeting with you .
He wants to take his personality a little bit out of his brand because he wants to be a little bit more of like an organization instead of it just always being him all the time , because he's actually looking to grow his organization . So it will include elements of his personality as the founder , but it's going to be a little bit different .
But it is a brand voice . Quote unquote is the personality of your brand , whether that is you or whether that is the organization itself .
I think this is a really important topic for those who have either a personal brand or a business name and are struggling to figure out how to write or how professional to come across .
I've notoriously dealt with this , even as a personal brand , just because I tend to talk not professional and say things like hot dog and cool and like I used idiot after I was talking about a regional tax agency recently in my newsletter . That actually got some good responses .
So in that note I think I'm doing a service as far as keeping like how I talk in real life in writing , but as a brand voice where , yeah , Do you feel like there's a line or where it's like too goofy to maybe even cursing Like cursing is something that resonates with some people but it's really a hard turn off to others .
Like , is there a line where you're too you versus too stuffed up and professional ?
Personally , I don't think it's bad to turn away people that you don't want to be working with . You guys , you actually just did a fantastic episode on that was filtering out your right fit clients right from the beginning , and I think that that's going to help you in the long run .
There's a great copywriter , justin Blackman , and he is very much him in everything that he does and he's quirky and silly and it's amazing writing . I love it and it really draws me in . I can imagine it repelling some people . So I would say it depends on a couple things . It depends on your ideal client .
So if your ideal client is somebody that wants that , which a lot of mine do , then I say let your personality flag shine .
If you are trying to appeal to a more corporate or a more professional person , you are going to want to button a little bit of it up , right , but they also , you have to remember , they're also still human and they have a sense of humor . So maybe there's ways to professionally bring that in or a little asides that you can make .
I actually just worked with this . She was like an engineer , she's a leadership coach for engineers and she's like I don't mind a little bit of humor , but this is the type of humor that they use , and so we did have a lot of fun with that , but it was very tasteful and like very moderate , you know , like the .
The most of the language is very cerebral , I would say , and then we would have like a little bit of fun here and there .
And I feel like there may be a greater opportunity than ever for corporations and bigger entities to have some fun with messaging and copywriting , especially on things like LinkedIn or any entrepreneurial or any corporate scenario . I meant to say it gets a little stuffy . It probably gets a little . And look , with people who have bosses .
They probably feel like they can't express themselves fully . They may be afraid to throw in a curse word or maybe afraid to put hot dog in copy when they have a boss and they may go against corporate guidelines , whereas freelancers , as web designers , as owners , we really don't have anyone to report to .
So I guess more power to us , right as far as how we talk .
Totally agree . You know , I think of like Dunkin Donuts . They just recently rebranded themselves to Dunkin . They're clearly it's like okay , they were already a casual brand and now they're making themselves even more casual and more relatable , like they are now just truly the everybody brand . So even big corporations and organizations are doing it .
I mean , you watch a couple of commercials on TV and you can see people that are very buttoned up and people that are like no , these are our people . We know who they are and we speak their language .
Reminds me of like MailChimp . When I first got started with MailChimp . I think they still have some personality and some flair in their in their backend , but , like they're the editor , if you put a huge image in there , it used to say this image is so big , it's going to obliterate email inboxes .
And I was like that is great , that's exactly how I would talk , so hats off to that person . Um , actually , just yesterday I scheduled an email to go out the day like the like the yesterday , and it said uh , time travel is hard , we haven't figured that out yet , so you're going to need to choose a day before this . And I was like , ah , I like that .
So that's the kind of thing that has always like , I've always appreciated . Even with MailChimp it's got a little corporatey , but all that to say like I guess that's probably a good example of how you can be professional but still have some some you in there as a brand voice .
Yeah , I think we all , no matter who we're working with , whether it's a big company or somebody , like you know , a freelancer people want to feel that personal connection and they want to feel like it is also relatable to who they are .
So if you can reflect yourself , if you show your personality , you are also kind of reflecting a part of them back to themselves .
Let's talk about social media real quick with copy . One thing I I don't know if it's a struggle necessarily , but one thing I see a lot of my students , members of my community , kind of go back and forth on is whether they should talk as a brand , as the company name , or as themselves , as the owner or the creative director .
And even if they have a company name , that may be their name on the profile . But I've always been in the camp of like show up as you on social media , not as a brand entity necessarily , Like I still like the idea of the reality is people follow people .
People don't necessarily want to follow big brands unless it's Apple or something that has some kind of like big following . But what are your thoughts on that with how you show up specifically on marketing channels and social media and stuff like that ?
So I think you and I share the same mindset on it . However , I know somebody I'm actually thinking of a website designer I collaborate with all the time and she doesn't ever use her name . She uses her agency .
Now there is a little bit of a difference where , okay , so in my business it's just me and the only person anyone is ever going to interact with is me . So I'm not going to be misleading by saying you know , I wouldn't , even if I don't actually have like a business name other than just Emily Aborn Consulting , that's my business name .
But if I did , I wouldn't use that name just because I'm always the person that they're going to get With her . You actually won't get other people , but she brings in teams of people like a graphic designer and a copywriter and things like that in the website design . So it makes sense for her to pose it as an agency .
However , I will say what she sacrifices in that is a little bit of that warmth and a little bit of that like , like her personality because , like I know her personality and it doesn't always come through and what she's sharing on social media . So I think , at the end of the day , my answer to that is always going to be .
It depends , and you have to make the right decision for your own business .
But you do have to think of the pros and cons where , when you are coming as a brand or an agency , you might be sacrificing a little bit of that personal connection in what you're sharing and you might also find that you are filtering it a little bit differently or buttoning it up a little bit differently .
So that's , some people may be drawn to that and that is for you , and only you , to know about yourself and your business and your specific ideal clients .
Where that really comes into play , I think , are newsletters and email communications , because obviously social media is a biggie , with whether you're talking about me as the owner or the creative director versus the company as a whole . But if someone has a newsletter , what would your thoughts be to that same idea ?
Should it be from a person under the business , under the company , or should it be from a person you know under the business , under the company ? Or should it be from the company ? Yeah , does that deviate at all ?
Yeah , let me ask you this Do you open more emails from a company or from a person's name ? I , 100% of the time . If it's a company like I'm on , this is a silly example . But like Michael's the time if it's a company like I'm on , this is a silly example . But like Michaels , for example , I'm like , yeah , delete , delete , delete .
I know that maybe I'll open it when I want a coupon , but that's about it . I'm not reading every single email when I sign up and it's a person's name , even if I know they're an agency , even if I know they are attached to a larger brand I read . I'm more likely to read those emails .
So again , it is a decision only you can make and I think it also depends on what role you want to play in your agency .
If you want to come across as the thought leader or as the creative director in your agency , I can see where it would be more important for you to use your name , because you're really wanting to make a connection with the person on the other side and share your visionary ideas and your thoughts and challenge people to think differently and have conversations with
them , whereas if you are just an agency and you're just selling products or services . Maybe that's all you need .
I'm going to ask you the inevitable question . I'm sure you've got it a million times . Should I say I or we on my website , what's your , what's your ? I have a take on that , but I would love to hear what's your go-to on that , that idea .
Okay , I think I . I think my answer is we . If you are an agency or you have more than one person in like that you collaborate with closely , again , using that website designer , she uses we , um , we , because she offers like a suite of things . I use I because , like I said , it's only ever going to be me interacting with the person on the other side .
The other thing I would add to that is like if your goal , if you're a solopreneur and your goal is to bring on a team , or you do have the goal of like being bigger than you are , then I would say just use we , because then you kind of are attracting that sort of type of client first of all , and also you're giving yourself room to grow into that area .
But I want to hear your take .
Yeah , that's very , very similar . I actually think there's a nice hybrid . When somebody does have a small team or just contractors , I absolutely recommend folks go to we ASAP as possible , like as soon as you can .
Because if you do , say I , unless it's like your example , as a personal brand and you have a pretty productized service , it looks like it's not probably something that gets too custom . But for web designers , saying I as a one person agency doing custom web design for dozens of clients is just too much and a lot of customers will see that .
I know this from experience and that can actually be a big turnoff for customers if they're like how are you handling this many projects just for yourself ?
So , yeah , my recommendation is to go to Wee as quickly as possible , but I've found there's a ton of places you can put I in your website , one being what I like to call a founder's note , which is something that would go on a homepage .
It's just a little note from the founder , from the CEO , from the person , the head honcho , whoever's running the show , particularly if it is the lead , if it's the creative director or someone who the clients are going to talk to , if it is like the lead , if it's the creative director or someone who the clients are going to talk to .
That's a great place where you can say , like I started this agency , I went through this you can use your personality and then , with blog posts blog posts are , I think are another great way to be able to put I in there , along with a we as a website . But yeah , nine times out of 10 , I'm like or most cases I'm like let's get we on there .
Even if you just hire out work twice a year , it's like you can still have a team of collaborators . They're not full timers . It sounds like that's kind of your situation . They're just people you collaborate with or your client , and then they can be yeah , you could be we . It's not even false advertising . It just shows that you do have a support network .
I totally agree with you . Yeah , I used to run a community and I had a founder's note for the same reason because I'm like I need to put my story somewhere in here and I just called it founder story and then it was all first person . So I 100% echo what you just said .
I like the founder's story too . That might be better than founder's note , especially if it is more of a story . It's interesting , though , because I know this is timely for all web designers , whether they're collaborating or they're trying to figure out their , their brand voice or their copy of their personality .
This is timely too , just because I found that when you do start to hire out and work with people , you do shift from saying I all the time to you have to almost train yourself to say we more . I . Just recently we added new playlists to this podcast . We have a podcast playlist page , and Jen , my VA , did a lot of work on that .
So in the email I wrote hey , I want you to know , I just launched a playlist . I was like , wait a minute , I didn't just do that . Jen was a huge part of that . So I said my team . So I think that's definitely a big distinction . There is being able to know when to move into we and then also feeling comfortable to .
It's almost like an identity shift , isn't it ?
it is an identity shift and I think , claiming uh also , where you're growing too , and not just being where you , where you started that's a good point , because people will see that too and it can look pretty dang cool and trustworthy .
Um character , your podcast Character , your podcast . What is your podcast called ? Again , is it the copywriting character ? Is that right ?
Content with character .
Content with character .
And I'm so sorry if you can hear my dog . Oh , you're fine , okay .
You're all good . Dogs are what . We've had many , many a pup on this podcast . Yep , mine are sleeping and snoring on the other side , so very common , um , but I wanted to ask about that is there a difference between character and personality , or do you feel like those terms are kind of interchangeable ?
When it comes to copy and messaging , yeah , I think they're interchangeable .
I named it that because I have always had this belief that hard work okay . People always say like hard work builds character right , and I've been that kid like I've . People always say like hard work builds character right , and I've been that kid , I've just been always the hard worker . So I'm like I must have tons of character .
But I think I use them interchangeably and I also want to show people that hard work Sorry , building character or putting character into your content doesn't need to be hard work . So I kind of like I have a whole episode actually on character , but I think it's the same as personality .
It's kind of like the you know , like what you , the mark you leave , the impression that you leave with people .
And I think character goes a layer deeper and it's about your values and what you stand for and like what you know what , what kind of is even underneath the personality that you're putting out into the world yeah , I was just thinking I might disagree with you only because of that .
Yeah , that point right . There is almost like you can build character but you don't really build personality . I guess maybe . But there can be people who work really hard and build character and values and vision and mission and all that , but are also goofy or weird or introverted , you know , like there's .
There's definitely different personalities to that , so that might be an interesting way to think about . This too is like what is , I guess , vision , your mission , all your ethics as a business ?
Those would probably be under a character category , which could be all over your website , particularly on your about page and founder's story and founder's note , but the personality may just be the way you say it . I wonder , maybe that's kind of a distinction there .
Yeah , and I think when you are creating a brand voice or brand personality , those are things that are really important to dive into because they also come through in your voice . So maybe there is a piece of your personality , but the actual why of that is something that's related to your values or your mission or your vision .
So I think that going a layer deeper and really digging into what some of those roots are can help you to bring out even elements of your personality that you didn't know were part of it .
So let's talk about that bringing out elements of your personality , because I've found when people write often and they're not used to doing any copywriting , naturally it's just probably going to come out more stuffy , unless you're just used to talking , like you , through your fingertips , like , well , what do you do ? Tell me in 30 seconds , what do you do ?
There you go . That's what you put on your website . Of course , we might tweak it SEO wise and copywriting wise , make sure it converts , but do you have any practical tips like that for somebody who just doesn't seem to write like they talk ?
Well , you said the first one , which is be conversational , I think , and I think I would also add , like don't be vague in the language that you're using . So sometimes , actually , when you ask somebody what they do , they use industry jargon or lingo that we all know , but our ideal client might not use those terms . Copywriting is actually a really good example .
To this day , not everybody knows what a copywriter does . I've had people ask me is it that little C at the bottom Like , oh you put ? The little C at the bottom , like , oh you put the little C at the bottom of documents .
Oh , you're in the trademark industry .
Yes , that's exactly what I do , so I will often say something a little bit more . Either I'll be super specific and I'll say , like I write website , like the words on websites for interior designers , for example , but I might even say I'm a writer , because then what it does is like it sparks another question .
So sometimes we just sometimes you want to keep language so , so simple , and then sometimes you want to use that specificity . That's going to be like more conversational and sort of like appeal to your ideal client more directly .
I really really like that advice . That's great .
But yeah , I think being conversational is like the biggest gift , and it's hard to teach somebody that skill in their writing if they don't already have it . So I love your idea of recording .
I think that's fantastic , and I've heard people be like I don't , I can't stand the sound of my own voice , and I think the other one is like really asking yourself who you're talking to , because that's the other piece that we can get stuck with when we're writing is we're making it all about us . It's like we just talk .
We love to talk about ourselves and my about page should be about me and my homepage should be about what I do and who and how I offer it . But really remembering like that you are actually like opening up a connection and a conversation to the person on the other side and just speaking to them . You know , like that's a novel thought , but we do it .
I mean , as podcasters too , I try to remember that Like I'm just . I just will pick a listener , like one person , and I will just speak to them and I'll be like this episode is for Melissa , you know , and I will just speak to them , and I'll be like this episode is for Melissa , you know , and I'm just talking to Melissa in my head the entire time .
Would you follow that same methodology for speaking to one person across an entire website , on service pages , on blogs ? What's your thought about that ? Or do you think there's time to talk to a group as a whole ?
Okay . So I wouldn't necessarily say I mean , yes , there is time to talk to a group as a whole , but you also have to consider , like there are different buyer types and you're going to have those different buyer types on your website .
So , scott Oldford actually he has this really great framework called the four hidden levels of consciousness and he talks about , like a willful I'm going to go through them in the proper order A reactive buyer , a willful buyer , an intellectual buyer and an intuitive buyer .
But there's also I'm not trying to confuse , I promise I'll bring this back to be simple but there's also people that are at different stages of their buying journey . Some people don't know what the problem is . They just know that they have a problem of some sort . They're feeling symptoms , but they're like I don't know what the symptoms mean .
Some people know the problem and they now need to figure out how to solve the problem , and then some people know the solution to the problem . So , all this to say , I don't think that your website is ever going to link .
You can't have a section that's for all of these things , but you have to keep in mind that people are interacting with it in different ways and that's where website designers are so good . They're like I know this person's going to linger longer on this section if they're the kind of person that asks 20 million questions before they buy something , right .
So then I'm speaking to that person and I think you can do that with your copy in ways too , with like that's where we give like hierarchy of text and headlines and maybe hooks or asking questions . I hope that answered your question .
Asking questions I hope that answered your question , but I think there's a way to speak to everybody when you're still using that specificity without lumping people into giant groups .
Yeah , I totally agree , especially from a conversion standpoint . Of course it depends on the business and the services and everything .
But speaking to problems is , and if you can make it conversational , especially if you have experience in that , I do think that's where people like myself , who I'm coaching web designers on building their business , I can speak to those problems very conversationally , because I literally had all those problems and I know exactly what I needed 10 years ago .
So I think , even for web designers in particular who are building sites , as a generalist , you still know the common things that most websites need for a business . So I think you can still conversationally bring in all those elements of different industries too and different niches or niches .
Yeah , and here's another idea which I love , this also for SEO you can also create , like , special pages that speak to a certain clientele . So I have a page specific for website designers , I have a page specific for interior designers , and some of them are hidden and some of them are very easy to find .
So I use those pages where I'm like , okay , hey , you want to collaborate ? This is your page , or are you an interior designer or a coach ? This is your page . And then I'm able to just like , tailor the message right to them . So that's another way to do it . And again , then you get those .
If you are doing your SEO research , you get those SEO brownie points .
Mm-hmm . Speaking of SEO , we have to talk about balancing seo and personality , because this is one of my personal , like main struggles is I want to do like goofy headlines ? That I would say , but I know there's an impact with that , with seo in particular and best practices sometimes .
So let's you know , like if you would put your coaching hat on here for me , like , would you advise me to put my personality in like body copy or subtext versus headlines ? Or do you think some headline , you know , like you know , goofiness is okay as long as it's has the key phrase in there , the keyword in there ? How do you balance personality and SEO ?
I always ask my client , like how are people finding them and how is it most likely that they're going to be found in the future ? So it really does depend .
Like you know , who really needs a lot of SEO and benefits greatly from it is like location-based businesses that's going to be a little bit easier for them , businesses that's going to be a little bit easier for them . And then including it in the headlines is like less weird . You know , to be like painter in New Hampshire , it just makes more sense .
To me , it often feels like and I've invested a lot of money in educating myself on SEO and sometimes I'm like this is very frustrating , because it's not fun to write like this and it seems to me like a little bit of a sacrifice . Like if you do want to do really well in the eyes of the Google gods , you sacrifice a little bit of that personality .
There are , of course , ways to do it where you can find loopholes with , like , long-term keywords , but also , if you're you know , if you're going a little too crazy , then you're using keywords that are not relevant to your ideal client . So there's a lot to think about . There's no real simple answer .
My simple answer is just , I would say , weighing out what is most important to you on the website . What is my most important website goal ? Is it having Google pick up my website and bring leads to me , or is it creating a connection and am I promoting that website in other ways that are bringing people to my website ?
So it really , again , there's no simple answer . There are people that would tell you SEO is the end , all be all . I am not that person . I'm like we have to figure out what is most important and also most impactful for your business .
Yeah , I've come to the realization after 15 years of being in this industry that metadata and descriptions are super powerful for getting found . But you can still play around with headings . At least in my experience . That's where I come to a little more leeway .
You have an H1 that is pretty personality or pretty you as a personality versus handyman based in Columbus , ohio , serving Central Ohio Obviously targeted keyword phrase heading that's not going to engage me , but if you have that in maybe your metadata and your page title , but then you have your H1 as something , that's a little more conversion .
That's kind of where I'm at now . I don't know if I'll ever change my mind about that , but with how to balance those two , I just know this is such a common issue . So that's kind of where I'm at and it's always a fun test .
I imagine you probably have fun testing this stuff out too , like you can try it for a few months with a more engaging personal headline and then try it with the SEO headline and see if there's any difference .
I'm glad that's where you landed .
You know one thing I have also heard and you would know more about this than me because I'm not a website designer but I've heard people change the H1 setting so that it would be like a smaller text and the whatever H3 would be a larger text , so then they can use those as their headlines , but for some reason Google thinks yeah .
I don't know if there's any big penalty or impact on that , it just feels a little . I feel like if you're trying to do a bit of a not a slimy workaround , but just something that's like this obviously doesn't seem like best practice . I'm guessing Google knows that it's pretty dang smart .
So , yeah , I would definitely advise people like , yeah , just stick with best practices on that . In most cases , h1 is going to be the biggie , h2 , h3 . And again , there may be situations where that works , but part of me feels like there's like gaming the system a little bit .
And I agree it doesn't work . I just didn't know if you had insight on that . So the other thing is like SEO is also changing . I mean , now I don't know if you use Google , but if I type something into Google , it will give me it rather than maybe give me a list of websites as the first thing .
Now I get like an AI generated response that answers my question . So as a copywriter , I'm also looking at that and I'm like , okay , what is going to happen next ? I mean , realistically , they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they made it so that content creators weren't rewarded in some ways because they'll run out of content right ?
Well , they probably wouldn't right now , but there would be nothing very fresh , you know .
And I think even more so for any copywriters . I mean gosh for your industry , for your colleagues .
It's like there's actually because of that , there's even more room for good human content , because Google is displaying that , and I think a large part of that is because there's already such an influx of AI slop and AI duplicated content or , like you've mentioned the buzzwords of AI . That's like unlock your hidden potential or unveiling , navigating this .
You know , like these , these words that you would never say as a person . Like if you and I met for coffee and I was like Emily , I'm so excited to navigate the struggles through copywriting for web designers we're not going to talk like that . I'd be like tell me about personality and copy .
Like I feel like there's actually more room and Google is recognizing that , especially for those snippets and for the AI overviews .
Yeah , I'm so hoping you're right because I'm , I remember feeling very nervous when that first came out but ai is just that like it really .
Yeah , I mean , I think even the general public , from my sense , is like they're . If they're not recognizing it already , they will soon that ai is just kicking out junk . I mean , there , there's some great ways to use it . I do utilize it , particularly for repurposing and for jumpstarts on things , but there's just nothing like talking like you .
And , if you can , yeah , my recommendation for all my members is if you can talk like you on your website , do it , do it , do it , do it , do it . We can tweak SEO and things , but talking like you and I mean that leads to how you talk to clients too . You talked earlier about weeding out people from the get-go .
If you're like super professional and clean cut and corporate-y sounding on the website , but then you show up and you're cursing and you're super goofy on a discovery call , they're going to be like nope , don't want to work with this person .
So I feel like , yeah , you're just better off to talk like you and whatever your personality is . Yeah , you're bringing in my favorite word , which is cohesion , which is like every touch point that they have with you and your business it should be a cohesive whole right .
Like it should all look , feel , sound the same and that that helps build trust and credibility and also recognizability , like when somebody sees something I've heard people say like I knew Emily wrote that and that's what I , not not for a client .
Like I'll definitely find their voice , but they can tell often that I , for example , in a local event that maybe a organization sent out for me , they'll know I wrote the copy for it .
Great segue into something I almost forgot to ask you , which is how do you write like your clients , especially if you're you're updating copy ? I mean , this is common for every web designer You're going to get copy . It's probably not going to be great unless they worked with a copywriter .
And then it's web designers jobs unless they're working with somebody like you to go through and tweak the copy . But how do we as web designers , reel ourselves in and constrain ourselves and actually talk like a client ? Do you look at like a brand guide ? What if a client doesn't have a brand voice in place ? How do you go about that practically ?
A lot of my clients don't have brand voices in place , so I have them fill out a pretty thorough questionnaire with a lot of questions , and some of them are really random questions like what kind of shoes do you , what are your favorite shoes in your closet and where do you like to shop for clothes , and questions that help me to understand their personality a
little bit more . But a lot of times it's just asking them to answer those same questions that they put in my questionnaire in their own words .
I want to hear them say it , not actually read what they wrote , because a lot of people will button things up right when they're when they're filling out our questionnaires , but when you actually hear it in their own words , you're like , wow , why didn't you say that ?
So I listen so much and I ask a ton of questions and I add on more questions to what I asked them in their questionnaire and I just really try to reflect their own words back to them , like their own vision for the site , their own vibe and personality back to them .
Do you record those calls or do you just remember keywords and stuff ?
Yep , I record the calls and then I usually transcribe it through Otter AI , and this is where AI is awesome . Actually , sometimes I will use Otter to pull out , like maybe I remember part of a quote that they said . I'm like find where they said this , or how would you say this in different words ?
Or what are the pain points or struggles that they were bringing up in this piece ? So I will ask Otter for certain things that I want to bring to life in their brand .
I also create them a brand voice sample , because the worst case scenario is that you get 20 pages into fixing something for them or writing something for them and they're like that doesn't sound like me . So at the beginning , I give them a brand voice sample .
Sometimes it's like A or B , because then , and like often , I'll know it's going to be A , but I want to send them that so that they choose it . You know what I mean , because there's a lot of power in them identifying their own brand voice .
But I will send them that sample so that then they know like we're going on the right track and we are truly sounding like you .
What's your personal favorite thing like aspect to write on the web Is it do you enjoy homepages ? Do you enjoy service pages ? Do you enjoy bios ? Do you enjoy emails , marketing , social media posts ? What are your favorite ? That's a great question .
I like things that are not like like . I don't love sales pages or sales emails .
I like educational stuff , so like blogs and portfolio pages , like for a designer that has a portfolio and telling the story , but then on a website , actually my favorite page is the homepage because that's where , like the , you get the opportunity to really capture people and show a lot about who you are and also who you work with , and then it's like this whole
little journey that they get to go on and go other places , depending on what they're curious on .
Side note case studies and portfolio pages are the best sales pages . You can talk about a service but then immediately get to a case study , get to a story . Speaking of story , tell me about story . How do you feel about working in ? Are you familiar with story brand ?
That type of framework .
So love it , hate it . Where are you in the middle ? Where are you at with that ?
Mixed feelings .
I feel like I should ask you your opinion first , so I can tailor my response appropriately , and this is really important because I don't know how it is in the copywriting world , but StoryBrand is huge in the web design world .
For anyone who doesn't know , donald Miller is the author of a book called StoryBrand , and what that did , the big takeaways for me and what that opened my eyes to , is to frame . You can frame any store or any service or anything that gives a result to somebody in some sort of story , even if it's really simple .
And the basic idea that stuck with me is to position yourself as the guide and instead of the hero , you put the customer as the hero who is going on a journey . You are their guide . I think that's a sticking point for most people who that book resonates with . So that aspect I like and I think to your point earlier .
What happens is a lot of people starting out who don't have any experience in copy . Just write about me , me , me . They are like look at how awesome I am , I can build this , I can do this , but it's not really about the customer . So that's my favorite aspect Now .
Where I don't really use that framework anymore or enjoy it is I just find it very overwhelming and conflicting and confusing for particularly sales pages or , like my site , web Designer Pro is now its own domain , which is my main community , and it's a honker . It's like it needed much more than just the typical story .
And , to your point , I actually have a few different customer avatars . I have early stage designers who are new I have established ones . Designers who are new , I have established ones getting the six figures . And I have agency owners who are scaling at multi six figures and building a team .
So I've really tried to do better at talking to them at where they are , depending on the level . But that's where StoryBrand . I tried it , but it just wasn't something I stuck with .
As far as the main guide , the main seven or nine points that you go through- yeah , I would agree that I think it did a great job of putting the client as the hero , and I think that is where a lot of business owners in general fall short is they forget that the client is like the one that they're serving or impacting , like they're kind of like , you
know , a channel to get the client success Right . I have never loved the story brand is where I like first , first kind of began with my whole like mark , like learning about marketing . I think , oh okay , I don't love the emphasis on pain points and challenges , the way that they're done , because I think that we're not . I think that that's a tired story .
I think that , as consumers , we're getting a little bit more savvy in that area and , like , we want we want things that are going to be able to , like , give us results and and transformation .
But , like , I know my pain points and and I don't need you to just keep on hitting them but to that end , we still need to address them and we still need to be aware of what they are and not neglect them entirely , because that's not responsible either . So I have mixed thoughts on it . I don't personally love the basic framework .
Like when somebody was like I want to follow the story brand framework , I'm like it's just not very fun , it's not very inspiring , um , but I definitely see the value in it .
Well , I agree , that was one thing that I'd never really felt right to me was starting with a big old . Like I know you have a crappy website . Like yeah , most people are going to know . Like yeah , that's why I'm here Now to your point earlier .
There are people who may not know their exact problems , but I feel like that's where you could identify those in a different section of a website or on a services page or on an industry serve page . Like you said , you have like niche pages that are maybe industry specific or customer type specific .
So I agree , I much prefer to start with optimism and then sprinkle in the problems and the challenges without overdoing that . And it's very , very , very , very , very sales funnily , whether it's click funnels or whether it's something that is just an absolute , you can tell it's like a , it's a funnel . I do . I don't know how the general public feels about this .
They may not even think about it , but I'm very like all right , just yeah , I don't need to go through the whole funnel , I just need to know , like this is exactly where I'm at , what are the offers , what's going to help me .
So I feel like if you can get as quick to that as possible without going through like do you have this problem , do you have more of these challenges ? Are you feeling like this internally , that you want to feel like this externally ?
Well , this is what you need , and then this is what we have for you , and that's kind of the StoryBrand framework that I feel like is and again , I don't know , I feel like I'm a little detached .
Okay , that makes me feel better , cause I don't know if I'm detached because I've been in this world for so long that I'm like , oh , guess who you story brand the up Like I'm not really interested in it .
So one kind of like happy medium is , if I have a pain point and let's actually say a client really wants me to like make sure that I'm touching on these pain points , oftentimes I'll say , okay , well , how can I actually turn this pain point into the benefit that the person is going to be getting ?
So instead of even like so to your point of focusing on optimism , I will go to the benefit . So , like the benefit , is you're going to argue with your spouse less rather than like are you arguing with your spouse Like every ? single day you know what I mean . So I'll take it towards the other side first .
And you're still speaking to the pain and the challenge , but you're giving them kind of the solution right away or the feeling that there's a solution on the other side right away , and I like that better .
I don't like to feel miserable .
when I go to a website and then be like , okay , I'll buy , I like to feel miserable when I go to a website and then be like okay , I'll buy .
I like to feel good and excited . That's it . And it's very hard to feel good when all of your glaring problems are just like shoved down your face at first Cause it's like , oh , I do have this and yeah , you , yeah , I totally agree . You don't want to ideally make somebody begrudgingly hit the buy now button or get a quote .
He's like all right , yes , I really like that little practical tip , though , of taking a challenge or a negative and addressing it in a way that is also with a positive . It's not like , hey , you're fat , you need to lose weight . It's like do you want to feel better and be the best version of you ? Here's where to go .
That's a version of like , yeah's a dressing that need to lose some weight . But here's very quickly an optimistic approach . Versus like , hey , get off the couch fatty , you're eating cheetos all day . Like , uh , there's a practical way I feel like to to go about that . Of course , weight loss is like the easiest cliche to use on copy .
But that same thing , that methodology , applies to design and websites . Like I always try not to tell my clients or make them feel bad for a bad website because they probably already feel bad . They're like I know I need to get it done . I'm like , yeah , no problem , that's why you're here . Yeah , this is what I recommend .
I also think one last thing on this , if you don't mind is when we are creating a lot of pain or urgency in our marketing . We're attracting a kind of buyer that sort of doesn't want to take responsibility for what's happening . They kind of just want a quick fix .
The ads that do work on me on Instagram when I'm just like , yes , I do want my dog to stop eating grass . Why is he eating the grass ? I just want a quick fix . I want to give them whatever probiotic they're selling me and I want the solution .
I don't really want to do any work , and so for a lot of us , I think we have to be cognizant of what type of person we're attracting . When we're getting that buyer that we're bringing down in the dumps to get them to buy our product .
Like , I don't want a resentful buyer , I want a buyer that's like excited and ready to show up and knows that it's going to be a little bit of work , but at the end they're going to be the hero because of it .
It reminds me of when I got started . I put out like an ad on Craigslist and a couple other places and it said affordable web design and that word , as you can imagine , attracted cheap clients . So which are ? all typically paying the asses to work with .
So I mean , that's how important copywriting is , though Like literally my whole beginning of my journey was dictated by cheap clients . I was like there's got to be a better way . And then I realized like , yeah , maybe I shouldn't position .
I didn't say it like this , but I realized , in short , that I shouldn't position myself for the bottom of the barrel , basically .
Yeah , exactly , words matter .
What are your thoughts on balancing design and words ? I've always my thought is that design and imagery engages but words sell . Do you agree with that ?
Or I'm talking to a copywriter , so I imagine it was a softball question but what are your thoughts on how to balance both , because I've seen some sales pages that are like small books and I'm like this is just way too much . We got to have a visual element at least to this .
A lot of the designers I've been working with lately , we've been working on saying less , like saying enough , saying it all , but saying less , you know , like how can I say what I want to say in less words ? Because , to your point , I think that attention spans , whether I want to admit it or not , are getting shorter and shorter .
But that's where I , like , rely on a designer to help break up . You know any blocks of text . Break up you know any blocks of text which I try to avoid , blocks like giant blocks of text . But I do think that the two go hand in hand and , like I love when a client does not have a website designer .
It's actually very sad because they don't know how to implement it properly . Like , you guys have a knack .
I don't know how you do it , but you see a Google Doc and you're like I know exactly how this should look on a website and I really really genuinely appreciate that , because I do think the two go hand in hand so well and I've seen so many people try to implement it themselves and I'm like that is not what it could be doing for you .
I think it's a great tip is to take a block of text like a small paragraph and just pull out the use brevity , like pull out the highlights , pull out the , the absolute best parts of that , which inevitably a block of texts could be extracted into something punchy and I really do . I totally agree .
I think for us a homepage and even services pages , there's room to expand on a service or even I mean , like you could make a blog post out of something that's full , make a service page out of kind of the hybrid , and your homepage is the snappy points .
That's definitely a great way to visualize that , because inevitably clients are going to send us blocks of text . We can talk about our services and our stuff all night and day , but especially a homepage or something . For anyone who doesn't know , we scan websites unless we're reading a blog post or reading something intently , so it has to be scannable .
We do scan , we just skim past like paragraphs . I don't know too many websites , as I'm thinking about it , that have one or multiple paragraphs that I'm reading intently . I'm looking at bullet points , I'm looking at icons next to features and highlights , and I might read more in an email or on a page that dives into something further , if I need it .
Yeah , like a services page is a great example of that . You're so right . I will read a paragraph on a services page or a course page right , if I'm like I'm going to sign up for this course , I want all the details .
How do copywriters feel about lawyers ? This is just a personal question because I'm keeping tabs on . Do you use WordPress ?
Yes , so I'm not sure if you saw the recent drama with WordPress and WP Engine , but I know they just officially WP Engine at the time of recording this just officially filed a lawsuit and I took a look at it and it was nearly unreadable , like I could not follow it . It was just the spacing , the kerning . Everything is like user usability issues , issues .
It's like I don't know how lawyers can read this , how I don't have a great question , I'm just curious , like , how do you like ? Are they the industry that needs the most help ?
probably right , like but but do they want it ? Because I think that the elusiveness is can sometimes serve and in their favor , right or like work to their advantage . Like , if you are talking , this is the thing .
If you're talking over people's head and using industry jargon and nobody has any idea what you're saying , there's probably a lot you could be saying that they would just sign right away .
Good point . That's a good point . Also , even just readability . I've found , yeah , and maybe and maybe , the landscape of digital between social media and Twitter , and places where there are just briefer is that a word ? Well , I always make up a word on the show , so briefer is the word for the show .
There's many more places nowadays where there's just a little bit of text , and I've had to remember this too when I'm creating posts for social media is to not do like a newsletter on social media , just do the highlights . It's actually a great reminder for me .
I was just dealing with this last week because I wanted to put more and more text into an Instagram post . I'm like it's way too much . I just need to like chop this , you know , in half at least . But yeah , I'm just thinking about readability . I feel like we've all got a custom , just like you said , with the attention span .
I also wonder if we are getting accustomed to more punchier bullet lists , numbered lists , icons , things like that , versus just full on paragraphs as a whole , anybody that has the inclination to try it is .
I started reading them to people because my I had a friend on my list who said I can't ever read your emails . I have dyslexia , and they just like it all just does not make sense to me and I was like , well , that's sad , she's like , but I do want to know what you're doing . So I was like I'm going to start reading them to you .
So I just started recording them using my podcast software and I put them in every single email and I kind of love it and I'm like why don't more ? There are a lot of blogs now that will have that as a feature , yeah , and I really like it . Yeah , so I think that's something is including more audio .
Obviously , on on social media specifically , you're seeing a lot of video . Um , I don't . I'm sure you have thoughts on video on a website , but like I don't watch them , as very often on a website , yeah , uh .
Well , so two points here I actually do . It depends . It depends on if it's , uh , a couple testimonials or or features , or if I'm gonna buy something from somebody I'd like to hear , like , who am I gonna buy from ? Um , but the point about the audio thing , that's really interesting . Months ago I thought about that .
I was like I wonder if I should just make my newsletter like an audio book , basically . But then I'm like , oh , then I just gave myself a whole other thing to do each week and then , after my VA , upload it and do all this .
But I do like that idea and I think , in a world where accessibility is more and more prevalent and talked about , it's just one more way for somebody to digest your content . I've even thought about with courses . So I've talked to a couple of people who have done audio versions of a course , which can be tough if it's visual .
But yeah , I like that idea , I like it a lot and it would probably force you to be a better writer . If you're like oh my God , I can barely say this sentence . I mean , we all know that from school . It's like read your paragraph and if you can't breathe because you didn't put any punctuation . Then we got to break this up a little bit .
It totally helps you with your writing , because you're reading it back and you're like , oh my gosh , what did I just say ? Yeah , so I agree , and I do think that you know when . When you're on social media , one easy way to get started in in making things shorter and more punchy in your words is to ask yourself how many stories you're telling in one post .
Like , sometimes I will do a post and it will be like I want to include six different components of the story , like how I came up with the , and it will be like I want to include six different components of the story , like how I came up with the story , and you know I it's just like this novel by the time I'm done with it .
So I have to like parse all of that out . Like they don't need the backstory , emily , they don't need you know what other thoughts is brought into your mind or what that you were thinking of it while you were falling asleep last night . Like they don't need all that , they just need the story . They need one story , that's it .
Gotcha Gosh . Yeah , Great points and a really good uh , challenge and idea about the , the audio thing . Are you , is it just audio and then , or are you doing video and repurposing newsletters ?
And no , I don't do video . I'm not like a huge video , I'm not a video watcher , I'm like this weird millennial that doesn't fit into the millennial mold . I don't really find video very interesting , so I don't do a lot of it .
Yeah , that's all right .
I mean , my coaching advice for anyone is always do the content you consume , because , yeah , I've like , if I'm like , all right , aaron , you got to get going on TikTok or start dancing on video , you're going to be like , oh , I'm going to hate this and you don't want to hate your business , you definitely don't want to hate your marketing .
Yeah , you want to do something that's fun , agreed .
Yeah , that resonates with you . Yeah , no , I totally get it . I totally get it . I'm it is interesting .
I mean , I think with video I definitely recommend it for people from , for trust building it , if at the very least , just putting a video on your website about your services or meeting you , and definitely when it comes to writing something down , like if you can record a video about your services .
Number one , you'll be very brief about okay , I can't take 10 minutes just rambling on about this . I got to get it done like a minute . What can I say in a minute ? That exercise is helpful and , of course , I think anything on video obviously translates to the real world .
But , um , and I would say you could probably pull copy from from video as you , as you speak better , but speaking like you're still doing it in audio . So I feel like it's still very comparable to speaking versus just writing . It's at least another way to put your content into a different form .
But now you've challenged me and I may do a video somewhere on my website . Somehow we will see .
I would love that . Well , definitely , let me know when you , when you get it going . Uh , well , awesome , this is flown by Aaron . There's a lot , of , a lot of really good tips here . Um , or , I'm sorry I called you Aaron , that's okay , I'm going to say Emily .
Okay , thank goodness I was just talking with a pro member named Aaron earlier , so , um , all right . Well , bad copywriting right there . Sorry about the transcript . We're going to have an Aaron . My podcast Buzzsprout is going to be like I didn't know there was an Aaron in here . That was just Emily . I would love to wrap this up with giving you a chance .
I do want to hear about your podcast , where people can go . I do have a final question I want to ask you about , but before we get to that , tell us about where folks could go to learn more about you . And , yeah , your podcast , your website , your services . Where should we go ?
You're such a pro building the curiosity until the end . So I think that if you are already listening to Josh's podcast and you want to learn more about personality and content and character , I think that it's an easy jump over to mine , which is content with character , and you can find it on whatever app you're listening to this one on right now .
All the links to all the things are in that podcast . So I think a podcast . You should go to another podcast .
And we will obviously have that linked up in the show notes along with your website , which is emilyaborncom , not Aaron . My wife and I just watched the Friends episode where Ross said the wrong name and he's like Emily , anyway .
So my final question to you I would love to know if you can think back to like one piece of copywriting advice that just completely rocked your world . Is there one that stands out to you ? I imagine there's a many , but if there is , if somebody was wanting to get better with copywriting and you're like this one tip really helped , what would ?
What would that be ?
Yeah , here it is . It's it's not that groundbreaking .
But instead of looking through something that you've written and pulling out everything that you would fix about it or that you would critique about it or that you don't like about it , look at your writing and find the things that you absolutely love and circle them and like , if you can keep focusing on doing more of those things , your writing will get better and
better and better . If you can focus on the things that bring you energy when you write them and also when you read them back , that's how that's like number one way to improve .
What would that be for you ? I'm curious , is that like , uh , something , like how you say something , or is it a bullet list like is it , um , yeah , a lot of ?
times I'll write a sentence and I'll be like , oh my gosh , it's so good . I have to like read it to my husband when he gets home , or if I put something silly in there and I'm like that was a good , that was a zinger , and I'm laughing about it hours later . Then I'll circle back Zinger .
So find the zingers , find the zingers , keep that going . Got it . Great tip . Emily . Thank you so much for your time . This has been great . I know we're going to be SEO and a copywriter getting together , so looking forward to that . But , yeah , thank you for for the time and sharing your insight on this .
A lot of this kind of reaffirmed where I'm at with some of this . So I think I like that we focus on a lot of the optimistic sides of copywriting and , yeah , I think , if any you know for your industry , if it hasn't happened by now , I feel like there's plenty of time . Ai is not going to take over copywriting anytime soon .
Fingers crossed . Thanks so much for having me , and I can't wait to see you next week .
Same . Thanks , emily . All right , my friend , I hope you enjoyed this one Again , really just want to reaffirm the point that there is a huge opportunity to be more personal , more real , more genuine and more flawed with your copy . Just be fun , be you . Or , if you're not fun , be boring , I don't know .
Whatever is you be you Talk like you would in person on your website and in your sales copy . I promise it'll go a long way . I am living proof of that because I've learned to write like I talk , which is sometimes a little weird . So there you go . Highly recommend it as someone who's made a lot of sales by talking or writing like I talk .
So I hope this one has helped . We'd love to hear your feedback and takeaways on this . I'm sure Emily will check out the page where the show notes page for this episode , which you could find at joshhallco slash 353 .
Again , to connect with Emily , go to her website , emily a borncom and , as a reminder , I would check out her her podcast content with character . You can check that out . Uh , all the show notes and her links again will be at Josh hallco slash three , five , three Cheers .
My friend , can't wait to see your website that is more personalized and higher converting , more sales . Baby , let's go . All right , I'll see you on the next episode .