What's going on.
Not much.
I've been laughing about how like Trump somehow lost an election in Canada.
That's really funny.
Yeah, he's it's impressive that quickly. It's all just it's all just going to ship with him. They are like alienating everyone. He made China and Japan are on the same page. Now, like that is that is? Uh? Man, you did it, congratulations. If you had intentionally done it, it would be one of the greatest Lake diplomatic moves.
Yeah, you just It's funny though, Like there's a rare or really rare thing can happen in parliamentary politics, and it happened in Canada. I've seen it happen in Australia, which is that the guy who was like in line to BPM because you know, in the parliamentary system, you don't vote for the guy itself, you vote for the party and then the party leader becomes head. So you have to have a seat in parliament in order to be able to.
Be the head of the party. Right, So our god.
Awful piece of shit MP for example, is like the MP for like Candate. Right, But anyway, Pollybear, the head of the Conservatives, lost his seat like not just like that the Conservatives lost the election in Canada. He's not in parliament anymore. Like that's how much, absolutely not And it's very funny to me. I'm just like I'll take anything. I'll take anything, bro anything, Like I'm just like I'm hanging on by a fucking thread.
Well, I mean, like, I you know.
Electoral politics is not our salvation. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is I want to laugh at fascists.
Oh well, I'm doing that every day, Like we like these people are idiots. They're terrible at this. They're like, yeah, like you, what what are we doing here? Like what are you? Like? You you're trying it, but you're not trying it the way you should do it, and especially not if you don't want to be under the thumb of China.
But you know, like I guess that deep in my soul, I think what is happening here is that they have failed to come to grips with the fact that all of this stuff takes takes time. Like if you want to do whatever the fuck this is, you need to kind of like put in a lot more time and effort. But then the other thing that they have fail to consider,
is that America's treat pilled. Oh you know, like we're the they're the treat lovingest people in the world, and now the treats aren't coming like oh God, bless y'all in the next month.
Because it's looking.
I mean, it's uh, yeah, it's if they if they were doing I know, if you're not, like not only is it that, it's like how how do you like, how do you misread this thing with tariffs so bad? You get this one guy who's like, yeah, tariffs are going to fix everything. Trump's on board because like he you know, remembers like some terriffs from when he was younger, and you know he's read all this stuff, and you know he hates the income tax, so it's going to
replace the tariffs. Like like you like, are they like they throwing away like so much of this, so much of their opportunities, so much of everything to fight the stupid thing over tariffs, which is like alienating business, which you don't want to do, which is like pushing all of your enemies together like against you, which you really don't want to do, and which is like just you're doing it for something, so something that that everybody knew
was going everybody knew was going to fail, like everybody you talk to. I'm not in economics. I don't have an economics degree. I don't respect economists anyway, But like even even I knew, because you like, how how are like how is that going to replace all the income dext you have? How is that going to even pay for like our military, like the people that you really need to keep happy if you like, how how is any of that happening? And it's just like.
I just I find it very funny anyway, But because like whenever Americans think they pay too much in taxes, I just think it's fucking hilarious.
It is like yeah, bro, yeah, that's what's going on.
Uh huh, sure, Yeah. The problem is you don't pay enough in taxes. That's your fucking issue right there. I mean, like, granted, you know, I've seen good critiques from the left of like what if America tax more because there's like they would just spend it on more military, And I'm like, oh.
Yeah, true, that's probably true.
I mean, like there are a lot of things that I that I support, but not under this government, like under that yeah, yeah, because they're not because they're not gonna like they're not They're not gonna do it right, They're just gonna suck everything up. They're just gonna quite So you know, I support I support taxing these people more heavily. I support a lot of this stuff, but
I don't like for the US to do it. Now. Well, I mean, first of all, they're not going to and second of all, if they did, it would be used for something evil at the very least, So yeah. Fuck.
Meanwhile, I'm here, like to frightened to open, like my I wrote a ranting email to my MP about trans writes, and like she's written me back, and I'm too afraid to open, even.
Though I want to like go and yell at her in her.
Face because I like demanded a face to face meeting because I was like, say it to my face, Like tell me all my loved ones I'd like have to show their junk to the bathroom police, say it to my face.
I want you to tell me that. But now I'm like, oh.
No, an email, so.
Like fallen at the first hurdle and I'm like, I'm too busy for this.
I gotta go podcast.
Well I'm sure it's like uh, women, gender or something something.
Yeah, I think it's good.
She's just gonna be like, on the one hand, you're right. On the other hand, have you considered that we've been completely captured by five women who are completely insane? It's like, yeah, I have considered that. Actually, what I what I am indicating is that you shouldn't be right.
The joys of liberal feminism.
You did it women, Yeah, they're doing great.
Yeah, those like thousands or so women or whatever across the world who have attained like levels of actual power. Congrats, he did it.
That was the peak. That's it. Nice one. Thanks.
Everyone else just gets to hang out and best in that.
I guess, right, I mean yeah, which is a lot like uh, people conclaves because it's a real sausage fest.
So you know, what, can I say?
You should have some women around to uh, to get a different, different perspective.
The legend of Pope Joe notwithstanding, that's right, m hmmm, quite so.
I know there are a lot of legends that are fun, but it's like, how would you ever believe that the number of.
People who really want to It's it's interesting.
People ask me about it all the time, and they really like that one, yeah.
Which I don't.
I'm kind of like it's it's funny because like some of some of them want to do it from like a liberal girl power one where they're like girls can do it too, like go on and gas.
Like no they can't, they can't, Like that can't. That's the thing it's like.
And then some people like to do it from a like oh haha, like the perversion of the church stance, you know.
I mean, but like I mean, like I.
Fully saw people.
I saw people online doing girl boss papacy in.
I did.
They're like they're like I would like to see a woman pope and I'm like, well, you're not gonna like that, Like what are you talking about?
I need I need everyone to understand that you could as religious as you want, and that's great. It is so good if you have a personal relationship with God that you find meaning in and everything, that is perfectly fucking great. However, I need you to understand one thing Intrinsically, when the revolution happens, all of these organized religions are going with it. You can rebuild your own thing later if you won't. However, that looks they're all going with it,
so I don't know what to tell you. You can't. You can have a club, but like, we're not doing the revolution and then leaving the patriarchal two thousand year old institution that has had pedophilia issues for over a thousand years stick around. That's not happening. So I don't know what to tell you. I don't know what to tell you. I don't know how you deal with that.
But you know, yeah, there's no girl bossing. That's a glass ceiling you can't break asolutely, absolutely, mostly because if you did, if they were like, oh, we're going to do this, like a massive chunk of the Catholic population would split off, for at least a large chunk of it would, and then you just have another uh you know, East West.
Schizo liked percent of the guys.
Yeah, anyway, let's talk about the let's talk about it. Yeah, because they're fun, all right, Hello, and welcome back to Not So Different, a podcast about ornate religious ceremonies that we're going to continue after the revolution. My name is Luke, and after the revolution my job will be seneschal for the Pope, and that's doctor Eleanor. And after the revolution she will of course be the first Lady Pope. Welcome back, folks.
We're going to talk about conclaves of the you know, antique, medieval, and even early modern variety. We're just going to talk about conclaves because they've been in there recently. If you just woke up from a coma and we're like, the first thing I got to do is listen to the newest episode of my favorite podcast, which if you did, thank you very much. We're glad you're feeling better.
Welcome back.
Yeah, but yeah, there's a lots going on, a lot to keep up. Man. Can you imagine having been in a coma for like three years and all the stuff you have to catch up on, like good god man and be like wait what no, oh, god no, because everything changes every other day now. Anyway, before we get there, we had a couple of questions. First, we got one from Vivi or Vivi, who says, how did they decide who in the monastery got the various jobs in the scriptorum?
Did the illuminators usually show up as already respected artist or was it something more internal?
The answer is a little bit of column A, a little bit of column B here, because sometimes you just train them up yourself. You know, if you're gonna be working with any of the oblates, that you get to teach them skills throughout their time in the monastery. So they're going to start out, you know, learning how to read and write things. And if anybody has particular promise,
then you train them up and do well. But if you have a particularly celebrated scriptorium and you know that there's a very fine illuminator somewhere else in your order, they might get moved over specifically in order to serve there.
So yeah, monks in the scriptoria in many ways are like players in football teams here or in Australia, right like where you couldn't have nurtured talent who rises up through the ranks who you have grown in the monastery, or you can trade for them, right like you can you can go after I don't know, the Lebron James of illuminators.
That's the thing that's available to you, right.
I wonder who that. I wonder who that would have been, who they would have considered that to be, because like there's got to be one that everybody's just like that's the bet, Like that kid.
I tell you what the talent oh yeah, Like I'm probably like front of the show. Doctor Asaro Oberg strut All is like yelling at her phone right now, being like, yeah, it's this person, and I'll be like, yeah, well.
You should tell doctor ellinor who that person is at will. I certainly don't know.
I don't know. I don't know the names of too many of the illuminators.
I'm just like in my affair, we don't always you know, like a lot of time, we'll just call them the master of whatever the fuck thing, you know.
So in my head, I'm just imagining like Lebron James dunking and basketball. But it's got like some like medieval white guys, like old medieval white guy's head plastered on it. He just he's just fucking slamming that down there. I love that.
Yeah, somebody somebody draws that in the style of uh, you know, in Inky Bailey or something.
Please thank you, Tures.
Yeah, Viv, thank you very much for the question. Next, we got one from Benjamin Cisco, who says trying to read Imagining Communities by Benedicte Anderson. In it, he's talking about medieval conceptions of time and how it's not linear. Can you guys, explain what the fuck he's talking about.
I fucking know what he's talking about, because these are the most literal linear time motherfuckers. I So the only thing I could kind of come up with with this is because you know, I'm always bagging on, like as someone who works on eschatology, about how linear their time view and worldview is, because it's like, you're moving towards the apocalypse and the end of the world right now.
There are things that exist outside of time, right, Like Paradise, like and Heaven and Hell exists outside of time in that they are eternal, and the soul exists outside of time.
But time itself is.
Linear, and we're moving towards the end of the world, right so at which point we'll see, you know, the destruction of the phenomenal universe. Maybe he means like the way that they like set up their day in terms of kind of like thinking about the cyclical nature of like.
That's that's the only thing I can think of, because like they they were all obsessed with like linear time, and like now like we have like now there are like fairly common scientific theories about how, like, you know, the universe could restart after like the heat death, like you know, like stuff like that, it could start over again and and like you could do that. So I mean, like now you could say we have some people have a much uh more circular view of time than we
used to. And I mean it's definitely something that we can posit and consider as a real theory. But like the only thing I could think of for medieval people would be like maybe because of like how routinized farming and stuff like that was, and like the the changing of the seasons and they didn't travel much. I don't, I'm not.
I guess, yeah, that's all.
I've never read imagined Communities. I I know it's about it's a foundational text on nationalism. There's definitely a whole in my theory catalog, but like, well.
I mean I will say that, yeah, I don't know what.
One of the criticisms of imagined communities, uh in general from medievalist is you got you got that part wrong? Uh you know, like I mean, that's that'stuff about like the nineteenth century, not necessarily like the time thing. Although like I must have glazed over this when like I mean I think I skim read this in my theory days, but he is incorrect in that, like, certainly nationalist sentiment
exists within the medieval period. Let us not forget you know, monks like Czech monk ghosts, teeth, like chasing out Germans and things like that. You know, like at least anti foreigners sentiment exists. But there is certainly a sense of something, but it tends to come up more particularly in groups
that see themselves as kind of like a persecuted minority. Right, So you'll see this, for example with like Latvian's who are like, we are just trying to continue to have our weird religion and worship the sky God and like that's what it means to be Latvian, right, And yeah, but that's different, right.
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think you could, like I think, you know, you can easily argue that the one hundred Years War is a dual war of national liberation for two people, but they don't understand what that means yet, and they are like kind of forming nationalists sentiment on the fly, and you know, like, yeah, you start to get like like stuff like that, and I mean like, yeah, I don't know, uh, yeah, I have no idea.
I still think it's worth reading. I still think it's worth reading, but it's just a thing to keep in mind. A lot of the time is that in a lot of these kind of like foundational texts, they get the medieval part wrong.
Now, I think, yeah, the understanding of the Middle Ages has changed radically in even like the last like twenty to thirty years. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, the historical consensus of it. So like, yeah, it's like, you know, and we just understand more and we figure out more, you know, we stop, you know, unfortunately some stuff persists, but some stuff will get right you know.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, And so I mean that doesn't mean that it is not worthwhile.
So I mean, sorry, mate, Like an.
Answer to the question, I don't fucking know what he's talking about, Uh sorry, because I think he's wrong.
I mean, but the best that I can get.
Out of this is that he's kind of talking about like the cyclical nature of church time.
M yeah, yeah, yeah. If I mean, like if it's like the days, like the hours of the day or whatever, and how they like are ruled by that, I guess you could say so, but I don't understand how we're any less ruled by like the cyclical hours of the day as they change. It's just a different type of hours. It's enumerated differently. But anyway, Yeah, Eleanor's red imagined communities or at least skimmed it. Uh, definitely check it out if that's something you're interested in. Just you know, sometimes
they don't get the middle ages stuff quite right. Uh.
You know.
Uh, Mark's famously uh you know with the feudal motive production calling at that, but I mean, you know that was you know, we could we could try and call it the manorial mode of production, but who cares? Feudal motive production sounds fun?
Like we can't we can't expect everyone to do everything.
Yeah. No, and and I mean yeah, like at the time, like that was the broad based understanding of it, Like it was incorrect, but you know, they they were going with what they knew anyway. Uh, Benjamin, thank you very much for the question. If you want to ask us questions like these that we uh sometimes just don't know the answer to, but we will give it our.
Best shout out to talk about it.
Yeah, we will definitely talk about it. And I certainly don't know the answer to most of it, but yeah, if you want to ask us questions like these, please subscribe to our Patreon, Patreon dot com slash w nsd pod. Uh you get to ask us questions. You get accessed to our discord. Uh. You can listen to all of our bonus episodes. We do two a month. You can check out the stuff ad for It's five dollars a month. It's really cool. You can check it out. We're doing
a book club series on the Cameron Cameron right now. Uh, just finished up part three. Uh, so youase you check that out. It's a lot of fun. Uh, anti clericalism, uh, sex well, a lot of people pretending to be paraplegic or ill. I don't know, they have fun way back then. You know, I'm not I'm not going to judge them. I'm not going to judge them for that. I mean I will, but.
Whatever, I mean.
Yeah, but yeah, you should check it out. It's a lot of fun. Anyway, onto the main show. So on April twenty first, twenty twenty five, Pope Francis shuffled off this mortal coil after a long battle with various illnesses. This means that a papal conclave will need to be called to elect the next Vicar of Christ, a practice
for which the Church has copious rules and procedures. Since the nineteen ninety six changes to the Apostolic Constitution made by Pope John Paul and a few adjustments by Benedict the sixteenth, the papal conclave process has been standardized. The members of the College of Cardinals who will form the conclave will gather in the Sistine Chapel in the Vatican City to be sequestered away and undergo the rigorous voting process.
Though previously capped at one hundred and twenty, the twenty twenty five conclave will have one hundred and thirty five cardinals in attendance, the largest ever, and they will enter the conclave and be sequestered with only one or two non voters present. To avoid meddling, they are housed in a purpose built structure called the Domos Sancte Marthe for the duration, while all the actual votes, sermons, and gathering
still take place in the sixteene Chapel. The buildings are repeatedly swept for hidden cameras, wiretaps, intruders, and have continuous Wi Fi and signal blocking. A two thirds majority is required to elect the new pope. The ballots are burned after each vote is tabulated, and black smoke is released from the chimneys on days when unsuccessful votes occur, whereas white smoke indicates a new pope has been elected or they're vaping again, whichever it is. A concolivet to choose.
Pope Farancis's replacement will begin between May sixth and May eleventh, twenty twenty five, unless all participating cardinals gather in Rome before that time and initiate the process early. Now, there's obviously a lot of politicking and haggling and backroom dealing that goes on with the modern conclave, but this voting
process is pretty solid and logical all things considered. I mean, if we think about everything the Catholic Church has ever done, this is one of the more, you know, normal thing normal processes they have, whether they're the fun, weird processes or the bad weird ones regardless. But folks, it wasn't always this streamlined, sterile affair. Why there was even a time when you could say the papal conclave was fun.
In fact, I'd say that these new fangled papal conclaves were their type procedures not only offend the zany tradition of the Catholic Church but also my own delicate sensibilities. What happened to the good old days when a man could be elected pope if a dove landed on his shoulder at the right time. Whither the long lost art of papal candidates slap fighting with one another to settle things.
Why do you have an entire constitution of electoral laws now when there wasn't a codified rule for the first thousand years that the church's existence return What happened to the church that was so unconcerned by boring law and order of menuche that a barbarian king had to impose a rule on it from the outside that outlined how much money could be spent to win papal elections because it had gotten two out of hand. Where's my conclave?
That election installs the same man as pope on three non consecutive occasions and at one point turns into something called the pornocracy in the arena of papal conclaves. We are very different, worse off for it. So we're going to talk about all the fun they had in the Middle Ages, But First we have to get through the boring early years, which is mostly just voting because you know, old Peter, a boring rock that he is, he's not going to do anything fancy. So eleanor yeah, uh, we
don't really. Yeah, I don't know what would you say if I if I say paper conclict to you, and I'm talking about before the modern era, Like, what do you think of?
First? If I say that, Since I'm a nerd, the first thing I think about is.
Pope Gregory the Great, Okay, who is in the eleventh century.
He's the one who does like the codifying about like this is how we're gonna do, like, this is what we're gonna do. So so like so if you say conclict, I'm like.
Well, technically there's all those things.
This is really a gold glove, you know, like because because until you get to the point where you're locking people away kum klube, you know with h.
I didn't know what that meant, but I mean I knew why I called it a conclave, but I didn't know what the word meant.
Yeah, they don't call it a coumclave because yeah, there you go, thank you, thanks.
I said it out loud yesterday and I was like, oh, that's why I got it.
Anyway, the no loads refused to come close. I get I would make that the episode wouldn't get me in trouble anyway.
We should just edit there. That's where we're not.
Up, and that paper conclaves. You guys know what they You guys know what they did. Thank you know what's up.
You know what's up.
But you know, I guess fundamentally when I say that, it's because until then, it's a lot more like navigating on vibes, right, Like I was just like like, oh, yeah, Peter, he's he's the first pope, you know, because Jesus like, homie, you're my rock. I mean, I don't recall him being like why shot you go to Rome and you'll be the bishop there. And also bt dub that means that you run the church.
Constantine's going to give one of your successors a letter you know, as he dies, it's going to be fine.
The church I grew up in, like the Catholic church that was attached to my school, they had like a big stained glass window of Jesus giving.
Peter the keys.
That's awesome, Yeah, like was it was it on like a big key ring.
It's like it was like two big fuck off huge keys. Yeah. Yeah, they're like yeah, they're they're both like I don't know, a foot long or something like that. I say, yeah, you know, it's like a bunch of sentimental Victorian nonsense, you know, but it's great.
It's great to look at.
You know.
Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. So yeah, the early stuff, like before it was legalized in the Roman part basically seems to be mostly just voting. But I mean it is interesting because they did let lay the laity vote back then. Yeah. Yeah, probably including uh, non nobility, like so just like random Christians, you know, women maybe come on, we talked about it earlier. Let me make my joke. Come on now, I'm just kidding women.
Well, we think, yeah, we think that it's probably it's probably most likely that at first. The big thing that kind of happens is Romans get to vote on this, so and by that I mean like specifically within the city of Rome. So it's like you get the clergy and like any higher up members of the lady or you know, lady that are super involved, you know, like people who are like hanging out at the church all the time, like they can come in, uh, and they can kind of do this, and you know, that's just
kind of the way things are done. There is some conjecture that sometimes these guys would be elected in the same way that any bishop is, which is like other bishops sound off, you know, but you know, popes like to think they're special, so they're like, no, there's.
No, no, we didn't know.
The bishop of Milan can't tell me what to do. But probably they did. Probably they did as well.
But it's like it's all a little bit of Roman exceptionalism when you hear those ones. So I mean it is quite likely, you know, I cannot rule out that, like in the third century or something like, you know, you'd also be like, hey, what do you think to the bishop of Milan, because he's also really important, you know, so yeah.
Yeah, yeah, And I mean as it goes along the there are historical references to it. A bit later, Saint Cyprian wrote about how in the two hundreds, one of the popes was elected by favorable witness of almost all of the clergy, by votes of the lady then present, and by the assembly of bishops, so that that was before it was legalized, you know, so there's persecution going on.
But a funny thing happened the very second that it became legalized, and that was that the leadership of whatever political entity held control of Rome at the time, they really wanted to have their say in it. And when you know, a Constantine began the long tradition of putting his thumb on the scale of of Pope Mark to get to get him elected. And you know that's how it went from there. When Rome collapsed, the Ostrogoths, they they came in and uh yeah, yeah, it's it's it's
weird how that happened. And you're like, the popes are like, we've always been independent. It's like, dude, athel Rick was an Ostrogothic king and he was the one that imposed the law, and you guys, is like campaign finance for foreign laws to stop you from spending so much money. I don't know, man, maybe it was a little if an Ostrogothic king is doing it. Sorry.
And also I just want to point out, like we we we you alluded to this, you know in the introduction, but I mean, let us not forget Saint Fabian. Yes, yes, right, okay, So like I mean, just to make it clear, you guys, you guys. In two thirty six, a dove flew into a crowd and landed on Fabian's head, and everyone went.
Oh shit.
The whole spirit says, this is the mom.
Now, this is a legend that like I believe, you believe no matter what, there's no downside in believing this. It's fun, it's cool, it's quirt good, it's cute. Like come on, like we're talking about electing popes here, like this is about to become the most money grubbingest backstabbing his shit in the world. Let him have a dove laning on a god.
Want one dove, just one fucking dove place.
By the way, the only thing we're talking about here that is not historically like specified, that we don't have historical backing for is the dove thing. That's just a legend. The rest of this stuff, like.
Yeah, the dove thing also is just fun to point out too, because this is the process known as acclamation.
Yes, when a pope is found, So that's just fun. But anyway, yeah, like it it's like and then it's like a bang boom.
Immediately after that, you've got political interference right, like you know, we got the ost Goths and basically, you know, like once once the once the Roman Empire falls over, such as it is basically the Oscar Goths who pick it up, and like more particularly I mean Theodoric because obviously they the emperors get to just choose who the pope is, which is the same thing that's happening over in Constantinople
with like picking the the archpicial of Constantinople. You know, like it's like why would it be any different, right, So yeah, and that's how you get Pope Felix.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, speaking of Constantinople when you know it. But there was a time, a long time, in fact, two centuries worth of time where uh do you want to guess who had the final say over the Roman pope was? It was in Paris. Oh no, but it was the only European city at the time, that's right. It was Constantinople. Back after Justinian and Bilisarius's Raventius gains. Uh, you know, they basically knocked Yeah, and they only did in some years.
They only stopped it because it just took too long to get back and forth to Constantinople. That's the only reason they knocked it off is that it was just like it could take ages to actually get over to Constantinople, and it was taken too long to one hundred percent say okay, yeah, cool, that's the pope, and then like
as a result, there was more slap fighting going on. Yes, so they were like, okay, well, we're going to just have to like let you guys pick, but then you got to report to us, and then if we're really pissed, we'll like nullify it.
But yeah, yeah, they eventually this was stopped, like the whatever constituted the Roman Army at that or yeah, they they seized the Basilica, the Army of Constantinople, seized Saint Peter or the Basilica of Saint John lateran and and basically installed who they wanted and then controlled a couple of elections. But then by the mid seven hundreds their rule had gotten so hands off because they were dealing
with their own problems back home. That Pope Zachary, which you know, I love the popes who own there's only one name. There's only one with that name. Pope Zachary is a good one. Love that guy, Pope Mark. Earlier, we talked about. But then you know, then guests who kind of took over. It's our old friends, the Franks, the Carolinians, and uh yeah. A lot of times, you know when we talk about it, it's like why did why did the pope crown Charlemagne? And I mean there
are a lot of reasons. He was looking for, like physical protection, he was looking for temporal political support, he blah blah blah. But one of the reasons is that they kind of realized that, like this whole process had gone insane, like it's just been going and going and going, and like before Charlemagne's time, there were like you know, there were dueling popes and anti popes and you know people were elected by like forty forty guys, like forty
Frankish guys, and that was it. You know, It's just like stuff like that. So they go to Charlemage and they're like, look, you give us protection, you help us out, We'll do this. And this was one of the reasons that Contantinople was kind of pissed about it, because they were like, hey, that was our job, and they were like it was your job like sixty years ago.
Bro grow up, like you see, like I don't see an XR Chack of Revetta anywhere.
No, not anymore, you guys in my face. Yeah, you guys don't own this land anymore. If anything, it's the uh the uh, the Caliphate of Ravenna or close to it.
Yeah, like yeah, they fucking just hate to see a playboy wedding.
They imagine that's what's going on.
But yeah, so the popes placed themselves under Charlemagne, and that's all good until the Carolingian dynasty devolves on itself and it turns into a fucking mess. And then it turned like whatever you imagine the most corrupt medieval papal bullshit. This is it, this is it. This is in nine oh four, the start of what's called the pornocracy, which
is a real thing. That's a real term. Uh hell yeah yeah, And basically one of the popes was assassinated and there was a time when twelve opes were killed either before after they resigned, three were deposed to atterned return and yeah, it's it was kind of owned by this family, the Theophilacti, the theophilact from Tusculum, and they just kept installing people for sixty years and it was called the seculum obscureum, which throsure aris eleanor I'm sorry, no,
but they I know, I know, you know, I'm playing go ahead.
Sorry, it's the right use of the term. Yes, ourcages seculum obscure them. It's it's because there's like so much wild git going on that we just we get weird stuff with the documentation.
So that's why we don't we don't know very much about it.
And you know, like when if you've got a bit of a chaotic situation in the papacy, which I think this counts as you know, who does all the record keeping around here, the papacy, right, so and also probably they were like getting rid of each other's things, you know, because they're like nope, not expunging that.
One from the record or whatever.
So we have this like we have a pretty significant loss of sources. But also just like it might not even be a loss of sources. It's it's just kind of like a lack of sources because they were too busy slapping each other to like write things down, and like that's what it comes down to. It's not necessarily a value judgment or anything like that. And this is where it comes from this is the one. This is the one.
Yeah, and I mean they don't even meet, like, well, the sources are weird because almost all of this comes from one source. What's his name, fuck leot prand of Cromona,
which is God. That's the way we need to bring back return And yeah, and he he was, you know, he was offended in a palled by all this, and so there is kind of a there's kind of a constant consensus that's for him now that like, while a lot of this did happen and it was very corrupt and bad, like it might be blowing a little bit out of the water because this guy was trying to argue for like a we got to return back to you know, the wave Peter and stuff like that. So
he was calling it out. But yeah, the pornocracy in Greek it means rule of the harlots, and uh, you know, maybe you.
Know, wow, yeah.
Yeah, maybe we should amend our earlier claims because the you know, it is ledge that theophile's wife and daughter were you know, they had undue influence over the papacy and they apparently did installing their boyfriend's husbands sons.
Normal Wow, Okay, Okay, a woman have political influence, God forbid, she exercised political power.
Yeah, I mean it's it's it's not good for the papacy, Like it contributes to all of the like ideas, you know, the ideas that are running around at the time that will be given new life you know, later on by the reformers and stuff, like look at all of this stuff they did, and it's like, well, yeah, you can't really argue with that, because this was pretty fucking bad.
Yeah, I mean it is.
But then well we also have to consider that probably Leod Prond is like a slightly hostile witness, so he's probably like he's probably given it the big one. And I don't know, to a certain extent, I think that everything goes wrong when you expect the clergy did not have wives and stuff. I think that like before we have like the Gregorian reforms, it's not necessarily like I think that you're you're inviting sex pests in that's that
I think. So it's like, okay, yeah, on the one hand, like your girlfriend might be like.
Well I think it would be cool if we did this, like yeah, okay, that that is a thing.
But on the other hand, I don't know Pedo Church, So like what am I meant to do.
With all of this? Right, Like, yeah, it's I don't, yeah, I don't.
I don't, sorry about all that.
Sorry, No, it's like.
I mean, like it is bad.
It is bad, but it's also one hundred percent this is like a political this is a polemic, right, and uh, you know, we don't necessarily know anything that is happening, and this is kind of like it's it's a lot like Procopius's Secret History about about the Empress Theodora and be like.
Good shoe was fucking a swan and I saw and I saw the swan, and the.
Swan looked at me, Like it's it's pretty much exactly the same thing, because like he's attempting to make a very specific case. As you mentioned, however, probably yeah, there was a lot of ladies hanging out in there, right.
Yeah, yeah, I don't. Yeah. I think my views on Paple Sell Lucie are well known. It's a bad practice that leads to a lot of problems, as Leonor just said, but like I mean, you know, they probably wanted to get some women out of there, but also it's probably like you know, there you know, it's it's also a lot of like, uh, you know, this just kind of looks bad, like uh.
I mean, it looks bad. It looks bad.
As those guys who call themselves the Holy Roman Emperors, they're starting to to, uh, they're starting to look at this and they're starting to wonder what the fuck is going on and whether they need to really get involved,
and they will. And yeah, so there's the pornocracy and that ends, and you enter like a couple of more eras where like it's being where the papacy is being directly influenced by families, by like a single family, and then we come to before we get to the actual conclaves, we come to one of my favorite guys that I found out about during this Pope Benedict the Ninth, who is the only person elected to the papacy more than once.
He was elected twice and then reinstalled himself a third time. Uh, the only person known to have actually committed simony, literal simony, as in selling the office of the papacy. Many of them, of course committed uh, you know, they committed simony as we would say it, but he literally offered, uh, the papacy to his nephew who became John the nineteenth and he offered it for money. He was like, look, as long as you pay me back, I'm good. You know, just just just you know, pay me back, and then
he had second thoughts about it went back in. But yeah, I just really liked this guy because I didn't know there was a non consecutive papal terms guy until this. Yeah. I really didn't know that someone had done actual assigmony like that. Like someone was like, hey, here's a quid pro quote, give me money for papacy, and someone else went, yeah, sounds good man, let's do it, Like, yeah, it's delight.
It's a really interesting one because the histories about him are are written that it's like kind of cute because he was like the kind of Tuscany and the way they say it is that he's like, well he both his uncles were popes or whatever, and he's like, yeah, this is just something I've inherited. Yeah, and you know, just like you know, I can sell lamp, Like, you know, if I wanted to set to sell the County of Tuscany, I would be able to do that. You know, there's
probably not enough money in the world. But you know it'd be possible, and uh, you know, so why wouldn't I be able to sell this?
And it's like, well a budy the vibes.
You can't you can't go you can't like go around say like you are you taking notes on a criminal fucking conspiracy.
Mother, Like yeah, exactly, Like what do you do?
Like you literally just asked him in front of other cardinals and bishops like hey, eh, eh, how much would you give me? Money? Means that, yeah, how much will you give me for this uh papal hat? And he was like so much that that hat's fucking you know.
Don't uh I my dare officer rest in piss officer, Mike, I don't know if you're alive. Uh. He like told us some story as fifth graders when he was like warning us not to do angel dust, a thing that fifth graders definitely.
Do or whatever the shit.
Yeah, all the time he's like, you know that, like people are drug dealers, Like he said, oh, I saw this young man with the Ferrari and I said, like a nice car.
And I was like and I looked up to him because he must have made it. And then he said, I'll sell it to you, and.
Then I realized he was probably a drug dealer. And it's kind of like that where, you know, like, absolutely no props to Officer Mike, who also cheated at four square, Okay, but I'm just like thinking of him like a said imaginary drug dealer.
Yeah, yeah, his ass. Yeah. Look, I'm having a lot of fun with this. But the actual concluict start in ten fifty nine, when the Holy Roman emperors and people who wanted to get the papacy back on track had
had enough. There was the investiture controversy, which you've talked about before, which, uh, look, I know, like the popes ended up getting their way for a little while and being the upper hand, but it was it was one thousand fucking years and you guys had to be propped up by every moron who came by and took control of the swamp city. Like I know, I don't know, man, Like maybe maybe else should have stop pretending like it's amazing that they did not get the conclave process together
until thirty years before the first Crusade. That is insane.
Yeah, I mean, it's insane.
A thing to keep in mind about the church and the way that it comports itself. And I'm always saying this is that it's a vibes based operation until you get to the eleventh century. It's the eleventh century when it gets off the ground. It's the eleventh century when it becomes the rules based legal organism that we all know and love, right, And and that's a fucking long time,
you know. It takes like a good five hundred years for them to coalesce this power into anything and to stop being you know, a couple of popes, you know, one anti pope and one graveyard and the pope and another one and waiting on a letter from Constantinople to say who the guy is gonna be?
Like these are not.
It's not the same thing as the papacy will be here too. Four And Gregory the Great is very responsible for that, and that's why that's why we we call it that, you know.
Yep, Yeah, So like what what does now look when we're talking about this, there's still going to be corruption like a lot of Borgia popes popes to go through like stuff like that, but eleanor like hat like how did they go? Like what are what are like? You know, what are the outlines here? Is it basically the same outline as we have now.
Yeah, it's essentially more or less that.
Okay, so it's uh, you're all gonna get locked away, although one of the differences is at the time initially you're allowed to have like two servants per voter. Uh, you're all gonna get locked away, and you're all going to vote on.
Who this is.
You need a two thirds majority, and then that is gonna determine who the pope is. There will be some vacillation on many of these points later, so, for example, in order to try to speed things up, like you can have into regnum of you know, multiple years even with this in place, so certain popes try to bring in a for example, ways of speaking it up by being like after five days you only get one hot meal a day, after ten days bread and water.
Like.
There are times when like the election was taking so long and it's being held in some small Italian town that the townspeople get pissed off and take.
The roof off the fucking palace.
Yeah, because they're like, all right, well nat, how about now, bitch, you know, like.
Kind of a thing.
There are amusing things too, because it for a while after they decide you can vote for yourself. It has to be two thirds in your vote something like that, like two thirds and one. It has to be two thirds plus one, like just to like you know, discount your vote essentially. But then like that comes and goes, but more or less, Yeah, this is when we have the process concreted into place.
Yeah, and uh, a fun thing is that, uh they uh, the when they started out, when the College of Cardinals was created, it was very small, very very small. The first papal conclave had six electors. Six so yeah, they just for a while, it's just like a meeting. Yeah, yeah, what do you think? What do you think? And they're like and they're dragging it out for two months, Like what the fuck could they be talking about in there? What are they doing?
And like we got to understand that like papal appointments sometimes, like especially during like the Carolingian phase might happen like the day a guy died, because the emperor will be like that guy. Yeah, and that like which, to be clear, the Church doesn't love but there's an a whole lot that you can do, but it is also something that is put in place very specifically to try to cut off Yeah, the the various emperors from interfering, which they absolutely fucking did.
Yeah, for quite such Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's yeah, it I mean it goes on like the the electorate is small for a while. We don't have great numbers on a lot of the stuff. You know, did the did the process change a lot with when the Avignon papacy happened or were they just like, look, we're doing the same thing but in France, the.
Same thing about in France. Yeah, just straight up there, like dude, this is the church. We're just here now, right.
They do try to kind of say we're going to try to like limit you know, outside you know what, ever, but you're just doing it in Avenuel.
Now, that's all. That's all that shit is.
You know.
A fun thing is that throughout the entirety of the Middle Ages there was not a rule that required the pope to be Catholic. Well happened until fifteen fifty nine because you didn't have to because what else these were they going to be?
Yeah, it's like, you know how, he's not.
Going to be Muslim, he's not going to be jew so like.
What yeah, like what you're gonna pick a heretic like, I don't think you're going around Languedoc being like anyone, anyone you know, like that, well that.
All the Albagencians should have elected their own pope. I know they I know Albigensian isn't a real thing, but whatever, but still we're just it's easy, yeah, like you know, it's the okay, So I asked you earlier, like when you think about like the medieval conclaves, so like when you think about the ones like from after ten fifty nine, like,
what do you think about with that? Like, because I mean, I know there are some of these like we're people are actually getting in fist fights with one another like.
It, Like yeah, I mean, well a lot of these things get really testy.
For example, like you know, the Western Schism happens.
Because fundamentally a conclave is essentially threatened by the people of Rome right like where they're they're like, we're going to burn this shit down. You better get us a Roman pope and they're like, best I can do is Neapolitan and then like and he is like a madman and like a violent and like breaking people's arms and shit, and they're they're like, dude, this was under duress and then he's like, no, it wasn't. And you know, like so you see all of these things that like have
immense outside pressure. You know, like my favorite Holy Roman emperor is like an anti emperor at first. Yeah, you know, but because the pope likes him at the time. But the pope will come to not like him, but they like at the time, right, So you know you see this like back and forth hit for chat. You know, like living the Bavarian absolutely is like making antipopes, you know,
like they're going around and doing these things. So it's like it's also interesting and important to see that even when we're in a period where we're saying, Okay, this is what a conclay is, this is how they're carried out, you still see emperors being like nah, dog, like I'm not I'm not doing all that right, Like that's that's just how it is.
Yeah, it's you know, they just put rules. They just put rules in a facade around the whole thing that was happening. You know, it was you know, you still got you still got these Italian popes buying the papacy and stuff like that. You get some of these weird quirks in fifteen forty nine, we would have had an English pope, but Cardinal Pohl wouldn't vote for himself to cast that in what would have been the deciding vote, and does thank God for that someone else is elected.
But like it's it's just really kind of funny. The Cardinal Borgia who became Pope Alexander the sixth rather you know, he privately bribed people while this was happening like in fourteen ninety two.
Oh yeah, Like the Borsia's like this is the thing that that is kind of frustrating. It's like, don't get me wrong, like there is there's plenty of problems with nepotism and simony and and you know, like sexual things that are.
Happening within the medieval church all the time.
But the real bad shit is like all happening at the early modern period where it's like the Borgia popes, you know, rockin' and it's like literally we have like one of the popes, like one of the last popes to just be like some guy is like one of the medici or they're like you're the pope now, and
he's like, oh word, yeah. You know, like it gets really bad during the Renaissance, which so you can understand why, like you know, Luther kicks off and everything and you know, and that's why they're also like Amita that opin this one isn't very fashionable, you know, and it's just like shut the fuck up, right, So you know the medieval polks they never get that bad with it, right.
Like yeah, yeah, it's like you just it's also funny to look through this and find out the stuff that was added later, like the white and black smoke thing didn't start until nineteen fourteen. It like I would have thought that was an age old process like nope, that started like when when the First World War was going off, Like cool.
Yeah.
That's the thing, right, is that it's so easy with people anything to assume that this has been done since I'm immemorial, but like, actually the thing about it is, uh, it hasn't because in time immemorial, we weren't writing this shit down and they were just like navigating on vibes, right, like we know when all of this stuff kind of comes in and you know, there are it's very funny because like you know, Gregory the Tenth when he makes
uh Ubi perriculum m in twelve seventy four and is like, dude, we've got to like fucking.
We gotta get some strict and we at least have to have to get everything out out of the open and like put it in like a building somewhere where like they can't see us like whipping each other with with cat of nine tails to figure out who's going to be the pope or whatever.
Yeah, and it's like that some pops are like, we're getting rid of this because like Ba basically like that goes away almost immediately under Adrian the Fifth, yeah, right where he's like, dude.
I'd rather not do this. But then but then like it comes back in.
So it's like you end up having these really big vacancies if you don't make it really uncomfortable essentially, because like they don't care and there and they will they will sit there and they will squabble and they will go for their candidate for like years and years and years unless you're like you are on bread and water now, motherfucker, Like I hope, I hope you you like that shit right, like.
You're eating bread and water. The angry mob outside is beating on the door repeatedly like good luck, I'll be back in a week. I hope you're not dead.
Yeah, And that's the thing is that it's like these things and also they move around like medieval people are a lot more pragmatic than you think. You know, now, it always takes place in the Sisting Chapel. Obviously it couldn't take place in the Sisting Chapel because it didn't exist. But like you know, sometimes it's happening over here. Sometimes it's happening over there, like you know, I don't know where, Like what wars are going on?
Yeah?
Is Rome currently on fire? There's certainly there are questions that we have to ask, you know, right.
Yeah, if you I mean, I'm just looking at literally just a list of paper conclaves Verona, Ferrara, Pizza, Naples, Perugia, like you know, they just kind of went wherever. A question I was going to ask is like how the hell do people get like are they nominated? Like how does that work? Because like I mean, like you basically just start like like how did Like I saw a list of like current like people like contenders, and it's like are they are they running campaigns at this point?
Do they have like secret like like Cardinal College of cardinal only can't like how does that work?
What do they mean?
Basically, I think that it's just kind of like uh, glad handing. You know, you don't you don't run an election, but it's just sort of like people like opinions will coalesce around particular figures that they're seen as being, you know, particularly charismatic or having a good story and like reflecting the values that the voters want at the time, right, And so what you do in this is the you know, you kind of have a first round of voting, like on the first day, you have a first round of voting,
and then everyone just sees like who who's up there?
Like right, like who is it possible to have votes for?
Right? And then if your guy got three votes, you're gonna go fuck it all, right, and then like you know whatever. And I think that they all sit around and they talk to each other and they consider things, and you know, like I think it's it's a lot like playing diplomacy, I think, which you know, shout out where it's like you just kind of got to go around and talk to people and be like hey.
What be like going around like high five like this boom be like hey, man, he's like, I ain't voting for that, dude, I fucking hate him.
Like, yeah, it's gonna be obvious, like who's like a fucking opus day guy, you know, and who isn't you know, like that kind of thing.
Yeah, okay, so let me I'm sorry. I know you've done a lot of episodes on this in the last week or so, but like I read the Pope Francis had kind of like stacked the College of Cardinals with people who maybe weren't white as insane.
To be hope. Here, here's the thing. When you're the pope, you get to pick bishops. That's true, all right, and.
Only bishops can become cardinals. That's kind of the rule now, uh and so and also the pope a points cardinals. So like Homeboy was just like, yeah, I'm choosing everyone who isn't a fascist piece of shit, Like I mean, like, don't.
Get me wrong, like.
I'm not praising Pope Francis, you know, a pab et cetera. But you know, it could be so much worse. But I think that, you know, you also kind of get to that level if you're at playing the politics and good at playing in the game. So it is to be hoped that we'll get some people who genuinely want to make the world a better place or whatever is.
But yeah, is there like what am I trying to say? Are is there like a like an inside track like where people are like, Oh, this guy's got the best shot. He's like, you know, the whole Like like, don't how does that he? I don't know it, just like I understand completely how Like how like political campaigns, how you can vote on them. You could be like, oh, yeah, I think uh, Mark Carney uh is going to beat Pierre paulaver in Canada and you can bet like fifty
bucks on Mark Carney. But like if you put a list of names in front of me for the papacy and we're like here, like you can bet money on it, It's like, how do I, like, how do I even choose that? Do we do? I choose it on a number of like people who confessed with them like baseball cards, Like I'm turning it over the meth trading card. Yeah, it's conversion.
Yeah, I feel I feel like it is.
It's one of these things where you kind of have to be really clocked into a church bossip and politics. So it's like, I mean, fundamentally, the Vatican is a state, yeah, right, Like, and that is true.
That is true.
It is a state, and in many ways you can look at churches as kind of like embassies, you know, of the church everywhere in the world, and as a result, it is political as fuck, right, and so they're there are political games that are happening within it all the time, just like with any other government. And it's just kind of like we don't always acknowledge that. I mean, I mean I do because I'm a fucking historian, and you're like,
are you fucking kidding? Right, Like, for from a medieval standpoint, all of this stuff is a big deal, right, So yeah, Like I think that the thing you need to do is kind of like have your ear to the ground.
And it's like, I guess I'm kind of aware of like some of the front runners, but I'm only kind of aware of it because it's like the pope signal goes up right when you're you know, I work in one of the only professions where like the pope really matters, and I'm quite interested in this, right, But I mean, if you're a real devout Catholic, uh, this is stuff that you'd be aware of, but especially like the kind I mean, actually, I'm not even saying devout Catholic?
What am I saying? I'm saying, like, my God bless them.
You know, my relatives who are super involved in the church, right, like they're going to be the ones like you know, and I know all kinds of wazdow people you know, who are like I spend time like attempting to get like particular people sainted, you know, like I'm like I am a laid deacon because that's how much I love the church. And it's like they would all know and have opinions.
Yeah, oh yeah, they're like yeah, they're they're definitely telling me who's the like the number one pick for, you know, in the papal lot.
And like I think that there are there are people who specialize like obviously and kind of like uh Vatgan politics now like Paul Sie, people who probably tell you more than I can about this, But you know, it is still just kind of like a numbers game.
It's still an election. I mean, what's cute about it it is it.
Is like still medieval in that way where it's like, well, we're gonna put a bunch of guys in a room and see what fucking happens. Right, They're gonna have to hear a bunch of sermons, man.
Yeah, so many sermons, so many about uh, I don't know, personal.
God, They're about what the church needs at the moment. And like I just every time I think about it, I can't help thinking how much my boy meal each would have liked to get that call, you know, like he would love to yell at those motherfuckers just like that's great.
You need to go back to Rome.
And they're like, God, dammit, I get out.
You're an avenue right now because you're in trouble.
Yeah town, Uh yeah, did we miss anything on the medieval conclaves? They are a hodgepodge of fun slash corruption slash.
Yeah, they're really fun. What I would say is they're.
Really fun to go down a Wikipedia rabbit hole with, and also a good resource online and resource generally if you want to learn more about various popes is to check out the Catholic Encyclopedia, which is quite funny.
Yeah, any Encyclopedia Catholica, that's what they should have called it.
Yeah, really good.
Yeah. I used to have encyclop Encyclopedia Britannica CD at my house when I was a kid. That's right.
Oh yeah, we got my parents have a bunch of old encyclopedias and they're really fun.
Yeah yeah, we have we have some of that stuff at my parents' house. It's like, man, these things are fun and so outdated.
I know, and I kind of like really want them.
I don't know, I don't know.
Encyclopedia. You can't be talking like that.
Like, yeah, my parents encyclopedias. We talk about Czechoslovakia and all this shit.
It's great. Yeah, Like they're like in the Glory to the Glory of Yugoslavia and you're like a hell yeah, yeah, okay, yeah cool. Uh yeah, folks, thank you for listening. Papal conclaves. They were a lot of fun in the Middle Ages. We we love them. Uh they're there. There are a snooze fest now as far as we can tell, unless fighting spills out of the building, in which case I take it all back. If they get in a fight in the Sistine Chapel, I take it off. You guys.
Let's go find like an ancestor of an ostro goth and say he gets to pick like fucking but like whatever you.
Like, gotta find an ancestor of an Ostrogoth who's like, not weird about it. I just from Theodore, like, all right, man, you got a brother who's like not weird. Maybe No, it's a thank y'all for listening. Paper conclaves. They're fun. This one will be important. I we'll see who gets elected. Will it be kind of good or will it be very bad, very bad? It depends who's to say. Anyway, Yeah, it's we hope you enjoyed it. I don't know what we'll be back with next time. We got to figure
it out, but we'll get there. And uh yeah, that I think is not going to do it for us today. Other than eleanor what what have you got going on?
I don't even know anymore.
You know, I'm on the socials at Going Medieval. I wanted to write something on the blog this month, but everything's been so hellish.
I'm gonna be just sur real with you.
It's very difficult to write things under the tyranny of fascism. But you know, I'm here and I'm gonna give it my best shot, and if I can figure it out tomorrow, I mean.
Not gonna try anyway.
Yeah, but otherwise yeah, like see me melting down about fascism socials, I guess yeah.
And you can find me, Luca is amazing on the socials. You can find my old show People's History of the Republic wherever you listen to this stuff. If you want to hear me yap about Star Wars. Other than that, that's going to do it for us today, and we'll see you next time. Bye.