Well, all right, here we go, All right, here we go. Maybe not. Let's see hello and welcome back to We're Not So Different podcast, where I occasionally have to cough before I do the intro. My name is Luke. That's doctor eleanor you know the deal. We sometimes talk about the Middle Ages, maybe today talking about medieval beauty standards.
But before we get there, we got a couple of questions, first from Gaffzi, who says, and economies that were only partially monetize, what do people give for things like tithes and to pay for masses, indulgences, et cetera. Could you tie the pig? Could you promise an abby a week's labor labor during the harvest to get your great uncle Ethelbert out of purgatory.
Yeah, so this is a great question and I love it, And yeah, you can tie the pig, You absolutely can, and people do. People will oftentimes give livestock or give whatever it is there you know they tend to make. So that can be both for you know, the clergy, but it can also be like the rent you pay. Sometimes people pay rent in kind instead of in specie. But a big thing that you do tithe is specifically bees wax. So if you keep bees, like you're like,
you're good to go. Because it's like candles, right, Like it's it is very much like the drill candle tweet and they're just constantly trying to make more candles for the church. And so if you like have bees and you can give bees wax, that's gonna be like the one that's gonna be the one. So like very much
that that's that's something to do. And and you know, otherwise, like you know, you can barter things or like move things around, but you know, everyone they're gonna understand that, like if you are just some peasant, it's gonna be a little bit harder for you to come by loose change. So they're not necessarily going to be mad about you bringing a pig, but they might then trade your pig for money.
For they're like like a fiend, like a fiend, like you got any you got any of that wax? Like man, I got a pig. I work on a farm, not an ap arist. They're like all right, man, Like the blacks guy comes by and he's like you want to taste you know it taste time Medieval coke dealer Energy there's like a medieval weed dealer. He asked you to like he like sits on your couch for too long and ask you to read like iron Rand, You're like Jesus Christ, I don't need wax this bad get out
of here. That's awesome. Uh. You know, it took a long time for the economies of Europe, I mean, for the medieval economies outside of of uh, China to be monetized, and so yeah, I mean I guess they probably just handed in about everything they possibly could in order to tithe or whatever. I mean. The Bible is pretty uh
it's pretty much like the tithe in the Bible. Like we associate tithing with specifically just being money, but like the tithing in the Bible, like they were bringing pigs and sheep and threash and you know, sheaves of eat and all that sort of thing, you know, like that it's like uh, you know, it's it's like a cornucopia thing,
like you show up, you tie that stuff. It goes to the church, and the church is like you know, they separate out uh you know, the beer and the bees wax and they sell the rest.
Yeah exactly, yeah, exactly.
Like its fundamentally, this is an economy about wax for but but you know it's you don't just go around having it, right, it's amazing. So yeah, just whatever it takes, whatever it takes that they can that they can live off of essentially, then it's.
Just one of those things you never ever think of, like how much of their time and energy would have gone to like making candle, like the amount of wax you would need that because basically every light is a candle, Like, unless you have like a like a torch of some kind or something like that, it's going to be a candle.
And it's yeah, well yeah, I've never thought like, yeah, so like ordinary people they usually don't have wax candles, they usually use tallow.
Yeah, but the but.
The church wants to use bees wax, right because it smells nice and it burns cleaner, and it's like it's like fancy. So it's kind of like part of it's like it's kind of like part of the fucking you know, incense sort of thing. So yeah, if you come at them with some tallow, it's like the equivalent of coming up to them with like methadone.
When they were asking for heroin an get the ship out of here.
You walk up like you walk into a church and like smell like the frying beef in here? What is going on in the in the you know, the the the fuck. The priest walks up and he's like, yeah, you know our regular wax guy. Uh, he's he's out, he's out with a regular We had we had to go, but we had to go to old Bob down at down at the slaughterhouse. Yep, there's the tallow and now our church smells like delicious Hamburger systems, like fried fried beef.
It's delicious, Gussie. Thank you very much for the question. Next we got one from a colony Keiss, who says, a few years ago, I was in troe Gear in Croatia, and our tour guide showed us a piece of an ancient Greek frieze which nuns had used as a sour kraut weight during the Middle Ages, wondering if this was typical and if the nuns would have known what they had and to what extent, And I mean, yeah, of course they knew they had the best damn looking sour
kraut weight in all of Europe. God damn it.
Oh I love that I mean, uh.
Yeah, fundamentally, like probably they probably were, like would have some idea about it.
Like I mean, you got to understand that.
With nuns were drawing from all walks of society, like well fancy walks aside of society.
It's not going to be like poor people, is it. But you know, these are people with.
Like a range of experiences and a range of ways of relating to things. So yeah, probably, Like you know, if there's if there's a group of people who are going to understand things, it's usually monks and nuns because you get more of a breadth of understanding. It's like someone in there there'll be like, go get sister Floberta and then she'll be like, ah tis a fine sour krautwait you know, or some shit like.
You know, yeah, yeah, I mean like they probably knew. They probably could have been like, yeah, like it's Greek or something, you know, some uh some civilization from the past of some kind, and they might even have been able to tell you Greek and everything, but it wouldn't I don't think it would have the same meaning to them as it does to us because they didn't have the same like uh not veneration, but the same respect for artifacts that we do, which you know, that's just their society.
Like that's a really good way putting it. Yeah, that's a super i old putting it.
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure now, I'm absolutely positive there's some like monks somewhere or some people who were really into like history and doing like proto archaeology type stuff. I'm sure those people existed. But for the most part, they're go'na be like, yeah, that's cool that Greek freeze that which would now be worth like ten million dollars to some museum. They were like, yeah, it's our sauerkraut. Wait, m we love well, yeah, pickled cabbage.
And fundamentally, the thing is they just don't care.
Yeah, Like I mean they're they're like, i mean we see this all the time, you know, like with the reuse of Greek and Roman objects, So like for all the fucking time, you'll have like churches that are rebuilt using bits of old Roman things. Like people just pick up anything that's useful and reuse it. And I mean it's really not even until like the twentieth century really that you start getting this idea about you know, kind of like the preservation of things.
Early archaeologists were just going in there fucking strip mine in places.
That oh yeah, Like I mean, like you know, they're like they're taking their stealing statues from grease, ripping all the paint off them, and then moving them to London. You know, it's not about it's about even that. It's about like collecting and collecting in this very particularized way. So you know, they're not gonna give a fuck about
a freeze piece. Like I mean, someone probably picked it up one time and was like, oh shit, that's cool, and then they're like, oh yeah, well, well we'll use it as a sour kroud weight because like you know, because because it's something that we use all the time, right, And this is a pretty thing, right, So like I've got like random antique things, you know, like the that like I've got like an old flat iron, right that's like it's not that old.
It's probably like from like eighteen ninety or some shit.
And I use it as a doorstop, you know, because it's because it's like I think it's a cool object and I need a door stop and it works, right, And so it's probably so probably two things are going on here. They probably know what it is, because you know, that's because they're nuns and that that's their deal. But they probably just don't care the same way that we do. Like they don't go oh damn like and like frame it and you know, and think about it in this
particular way. They go, oh, that's really cool. Yeah we can use it for this. So so yeah, it's it's it is one of these things.
I mean. The exception here is usually books, Like if.
You have anything written down or if you have any kind of book, they're like, oh shit, there's a book. And they really they really like books. But even said that, having said that, like you know, they'll reuse parchment all the time, like if it's if you've got like a super common copy of something and they need like the blank piece on the other.
Side, they'll cut it out and reuse it.
But as a general rule of thumb, like books are the one thing they care about.
So yeah, yeah, yeah, Colin, thank you very much for the question. Sauer Kraut weight is just so funny. Like specificity, it's not just a counterweight, it's not just like a like a general measuring thing. Is specifically that is the one we use for that's the Greek freeze for Sauer kraut over there's the Roman freeze for beer, or you know, just like cool man.
Cool man. Yeah, like for sure, that's awesome.
Yeah. Anyway, if you guys want to ask us questions like those, or you want to hear more bonus episodes, uh we do two a month, or you just want to hear this ad free, or you want to talk on our pay on our discord, then please do subscribe for just five dollars a month Patreon, dot com, slash w n sd pod. You get more of us, you
get more fun and more joy in your life. I suppose if I assume you're listening to this because it brings you some level of joy, I uh, if you're not, man, I cool, I appreciate we appreciate it.
But I mean, yeah, I would love that.
Why, Like, what is there to hate listen to?
Here?
Like like I don't yeah.
I mean, if you're really mad, you know what, I take it back.
If you're hate listening, keep doing it. Subspeci Patreon and hate listen to that.
More hate listening. You're You're God's bravest soldier.
And actually more hate listens the more hate subscriptions, you do.
I actually really respect that because I think like the art of the hater, you know, as you'll remember, you'll remember my New Year's resolution last year to be a more specific hater, you know, Like, I just think the art of the hater is really added to by you need to do that deep dive. You got to be listening. You've got to be listening hard. So you know, I salute every single person hate listening right now. Keep it up, great stuff, you know, thank you?
Yeah, yeah, uh. Anyway, onto the main show. So, sometimes social media is a youthful finding alternative perspectives on world events and politics that we may that we might not otherwise see. This is the good side of social media. Sometimes social media is a healthscape filled with the worst of every type of person who want nothing more than to annoy you for no goddamn reason or be reactionary pieces of shit. This is the bad side of social media.
And then sometimes you find posts that make you laugh for days and give you fodder for entire podcast episodes. This, I would argue, is the greatest good that social media has ever brought to us. Sure, it's good that we know the truth about world events that our governments try to lie to us about. But really, it's just so wonderful to see the humorous insanity of the human mind on full display for all of us to see. And folks, when you know it, we've got some great social media
to discuss today. Last week, Twitter user A Bree Soulstad posted the following Catholic Mary, Greater Sign Protestant Mary, sublimely beautiful and immaculately pure, Greater Sign plane looking and just a vessel. God is the master Artist. He did not make his greatest creature anything but indescribably beautiful. Worship the Divine Artist about properly revering his master work. Then she
attached two images. The first is a very obviously AI image of like a hot coquette Mary with the with the halo around her, and the second is I guess probably a picture of an image of Mary from like a movie of some kind, like a biblical movie. I guess it doesn't it doesn't look AI like, it doesn't show any obvious signs of AI. I don't know who it is, but yeah, anyway, I'll post the link, so if you know who it is, you can tell me.
Now you know, I guess she's Protestant Mary. You know, so we're already off to a real strong start here. We got Catholic and Protestant Mary are apparently two separate people, and we are praising Capital d Capital a divine artist
while using an aiimage to show this hot year. This poster goes on to defend her posts and the comments by saying that Mary is the most beautiful woman to ever exist because she's the most perfect of God's creation, quoting random saints expositing on Mary being a baddie and saying that ugliness is a consequence of the fall of man. So,
you know, normal stuff. But our fearless poster was not content to let the sleeping dog lie, and, much to our delight, decided to clarify her thoughts further via a quote tweet the following day. Thankfully, she bought a blue check so we get an extended look at her thoughts. Guys, that was a poor choice of image. I am sorry, frownie emoji. However, nothing I said here is wrong, idolatry,
godless worship, or theologically inaccurate. And I did not call the depiction of Protestant Mary ugly, as many of the claim. I clearly said plaine, which is the perfect word to describe how a growing number of Protestant denominations erroneously see Mary. Here is Saint Thomas Aquinas quote, the grace of sanctification not only represented illicit impulses in our lady, but even had an effect on others, such that although she was physically beautiful, she could not be lusted after by anyone.
End quote. That is an insane thing to say, because she had a husband. You know what, I'll talk about it later, anyway, back to it. Here is Saint Bernadette quote, she Mary was so beautiful that to see her again one would be willing to die. End quote. I can go on with quotes all day. Ugliness, aging, wrinkles, sickness, de formity, etc. Are all some of the many calls consequences of the fall and of sin. None of this
was supposed to happen to us. We were supposed to be in the garden living out perfection and complete union with God. If you believe Mary to be immaculately conceived and sinless, as I do, she must therefore be beautiful both inside and out. She did not experience the consequences of the fall and sin like we do. She is painted, she is most painted, and she is the most painted and sculpted woman in history. For a reason. She has showered with songs and poems and litanys and praise. For
a reason. She is beloved and admired and extolled about by all the saints. For a reason, God wrote her beauty on human heart. On the human heart. He wants you to love her and strive to be like her. Beauty is not bad or judgmental or subjective. It is one of the three transcendentals of truth, beauty, and goodness which draw us into the great mystery of God in heaven and creation. Revering the beauty of God's creation, specifically,
his most credible and beautiful creature, glorifies him. For too long, many involved in some modern day Protestant denomination to thrown cold water on Mary. They said she is no holier, no more special than us, that she was just a vessel, that she was another center, that she deserves no praise or veneration or attention, and that she is dead and decomposing in the ground. None of this is true, and none of this leads anyone to model themselves after her
the quintessential perfect disciple of Christ. In the order of all things, there is the triune God, and then there is Mary. She is more glorious than even the Seraphim and cheriff and Cherubim. I will die on this hill for our lady. So yeah, today we're going to talk about whatever the fuck that was, and then we're gonna talk about a way in which medieval people were actually very problematic and wrong, and that is they fucked up beauty standards. But first, eleanor what the fuck is?
Okay?
So, like the thing about this bitch, right is that she had me in the first half.
Like, I'm not gonna lie. Like she isn't wrong.
In terms of what the medieval theological idea of Mary is.
What she is wrong about is the idea that beauty isn't subjective. Okay.
So these so these are these are these are two different things, right, Okay? And she is absolutely right, like so for the majority of the medieval period, like, the idea of beauty is something that gets expounded upon at length, right, And she's also right that beauty is very much conceptualized as being a proof of someone's spiritual rectitude because the idea here is that God.
Made the natural world.
Yes, and the natural world is beautiful because it is how He wishes it to be.
It was created by him. Great, great job.
Right.
So so if someone is more spiritually close to God or more spiritually aligned with God, they are going to necessarily be more beautiful because it's proof of their spiritual
correctness and their alignment with God. Okay, And she is right about a part of the reasoning behind this, and that is because before the fall of Man, in the Garden of Eden, everyone would just be a baddie, right, Everyone would just be like so fucking hot, but you wouldn't think they were hot, because there's no idea of sexuality, all right, So bor, so let's just bang on there right like this is and this is this is Saint
Augustine at work, to be honest. So Saint Augustine's whole thing is that like everything is perfect and pure and beautiful in the Garden of Eden. And you know, just like we need to understand that how people are thinking about the world is that we are ever and always moving further and further away from the Garden of Eden, and so things are necessarily getting worse because we're getting further and further away from our experience and time in the presence of God. Right, so you know things like
people are getting worse, people are getting uglier. So maybe that's why Protestant Mary's an uggo. So the idea here is that the fall of man, as I've said eight million times before, coincides with the introduction of lust into the world because they realize that they are naked and their disobedience brings lustfulness down on humanity.
Right. So Mary was baddie, just like Eve was a baddie.
Right.
You can refer to the cover of my book for more info. You know, they're pretty much interchangeable. It's just one is naked, and basically that all would have been fine until the idea of sexiness comes about. So that's that's one hundred percent correct. And you see this kind of like knock on thing all the time in terms of how beautiful women are then treated. So for example, we will see, especially in the earlier medieval period, you will see examples where women who had been enslaved and
trafficked right by the vikings. If you're hot enough, you'll get married off and become the queen. And the reason we know about it is the chroniclers will be like, yeah, and she was really fucking hot, so obviously she was full of every good grace and she became the queen, right, So it's like, being beautiful is ipso facto a reason for someone to be a queen because they have all of the attendant virtues that come along.
With beauty.
So obviously Mary has all those things, right. Obviously, obviously Mary, by virtue of being the best lady that the world has ever known, has all those virtues. And she's also fucking correct about this whole thing about original sin. So because she doesn't have she doesn't have original sin, she can't have the corruptions of the world, and so therefore she.
Would be beautiful now as too. For the whole lusting thing, I don't know, dude, God came in her.
I the the loungestine thing here is like like that that like she couldn't it was like physically but even even had an effect on others such that although she was physically beautiful, she could not be lusted after by anyone like h.
But why it's like it's so interesting because it's like, why do you need to make that clear? It's so funny because it's like, uh, and it's because it's your mommy.
And it's clearly not true because there are plenty of pictures with like Mary of just like the most massive jugs with baby Jesus ever, like baby Jesus looking at those things like I'm willbe say for weeks, dog weeks.
Dude, and it's and we you know, we know we also know that it's not true because of Protestant testimony, right, so you know, we've got that that anonymous Protestant guy who's like talking about, yeah, we had to get rid of all the statues because basically the saints are all dressed up like hussies, and he talks about how he would get turned on by seeing statues of Mary because Mary's so hot in them, right, so you know, yeah, and okay, we're talking about people who are not necessarily
the divine presence of Mary, but they're around Mary and they're they're able to like get hard for a statue right now, So so clearly someone is finding this attractive.
Yeah, And it's like for me.
I think that what Augustine is doing here is surprise, like substituting Mary for his own mommy. Yeah, right, and he's gotten you know, augustly, he's got like a traditional ash mommy issues, you know, like his mom is is a Christian and it's always like.
Oh see, what are you gonna stop being a fuck boy and fuck yourself took out and he's.
Like, mom, in a minute, Mom, I'm busy being my mom.
Uh you know.
So like so there's a lot of that going on, and so I think he's just kind of like switched Mary in for his own mother. So obviously you're not allowed to be horny for your mom, right, So uh so that's why this whole other like back end thing comes around.
But people are horny for her.
Like I don't know what to tell you, Like I don't know what to tell you, and and granted you could say, oh well yeah, but that's because these are depictions.
It's not marry herself and it's like, okay, got a dog, but like should and the very idea then, in theory, put us off being tur gone, right, Like if that's truly how her grace works, and if what we are saying is that we are using images of Mary in order to sharpen up and focus us so that we can be in connection to her and pray with her correctly. Then it's going to be a problem if she's too hot, because people are going to get distracted, and people do get distracted.
Right.
Where I disagree with her though, is.
On like the conception of aging. And she's also incorrect on this one when we go and look at medieval art, because medieval art absolutely shows her as having aged over time.
So like Mary, the version with.
Child is a young baddie, yes, but by the time you get to the Pieta, Mary's older. You know, she's thirty years over older, and like you know, she's very, very sad, and she's like crying and everywhere, and.
She isn't beautiful.
And I think that she's wrong here because it doesn't just because she doesn't have original sin doesn't mean she's in the garden.
Yeah, those are two different things. Yeah, she wasn't.
Yeah, she seems to be arguing that Mary walks around in a perpetual like uh, like a pocket dimension garden of Eden, where like ever, wherever she goes, she is constantly in this state like of not having original sin or whatever. And like this also just boggles my mind because Mary had other children. Jesus has a brother named James, and and absolutely and other and other siblings are attributed as well, Like so she and Joseph had to have sex at least once, So like did she like milk
him and do it? Like he had to be horny for her at least.
One exactly exactly because here the thing, right, because here's the thing is that it would be possible, because Mary doesn't have original sin, for her to have sex without lust completely possible because you know, like it's because Augustein has already set up the mechanics by which that happens, as we've talked about about eight million times, right, But Joseph does have original sin.
Yes, Joseph does have original sin, and so he is definitely turned on when they're having sex.
And and we and we know that there is we know that there are siblings, like the siblings occur, you know, like the siblings show up in the Bible, and Mary is like, Jesus, I really think you should come home now, and things like that. With all our children now they get ignored a lot. But this is an apocrypha, Like we're not we're not even talking about apocrypha.
This is just a fact of the matter.
James, the brother of Jesus is a guy like that, Like that's his name. He's known to history as that.
Like, so you're just wrong on that one like that, I'm sorry, I'm just applying.
I mean, I know, I'm applying a lot a lot of like present day stuff. But is like, if she doesn't have original sin, could she even consent? Like, isn't the original sin? In my mind is like having the mind of a child, Like and I'm not Look, I'm not if you believe in God. I am not saying that. If you believe in this stuff, That's not what I'm saying. But like, in my mind, the lack of original sin is you walking around and being like, huh, this is so like you like you're like a four or five
year old kid. You're like that the sun is shining. Yeah okay.
So have you ever read One hundred Years of Solitude?
Yes?
Okay. So what this.
Reminded me of is, you know, there is the the character who ascends bodily into heaven and she is absolutely gorgeous and everyone agrees with it, but she also has like the mind of a child. Remedios the beauty that's the yeah, yeah, so yeah, and she and she's so hot and so beautiful, but she's like what duh the whole time and then and then she gets decided into heaven, right, So like that's essentially what.
What like this chick is kind of arguing for yeah too.
And and it can't be right because it's like this is this is a wife and mother, right, so she's like.
The wife and mother. Like if you divorce every single thing from this, if you like, this is the thing I've never understood about about Catholic Mary is that if you divorce her from all of this, then eventually Jesus didn't wasn't like born as like a normal man. He was born to like a demi god essentially, like or like a or like an an interloper between the two
between humans and God. And it's like you know that like to me, like for any of this to matter, like she had to go through pain pregnancy, it had to be unbearable, and she has to have the same trouble like she has to be like when she's like when Jesus is like four years old and will not shut the fuck up about some stupid question. Mom, Mom, Mom, where do you cows come from? Mom? Mom? Mom, Mom, And she's like, why don't you just ask your fucking
dada he's out in the yard. She's like, your real dad, you're dumb bitch, Like no, like like but no, but you're the same thing. Like, if Jesus didn't feel horniness, if Jesus didn't feel like the anger like to well up in him and like and want to hurt someone for doing bad things to bad people, then that's not a god. That's just like or he's not a man. That's just a god who came down here and was like, yep, pretty unfeeling about all this.
Yep, well, I mean okay, and you're bang on here, right.
So, in the first place, we do know that Mary probably did suffer, you know, birth pains or all pregnancy pains, at least within the medieval imagination or in the ancient imagination, because then otherwise, why is there this emergency when she's about to give birth to Jesus and she has to do it in the barn, right, Because if it was no big deal and she didn't experience discomfort, or she wasn't in danger, or she wasn't in pain, then she'd be like, yeah, She'll like, I'll just do it here
on the side of the road, right, because it wouldn't it would be no thing, right, So she's going one step further. Yeah, right, So it's like no one is saying that she doesn't experience that, that she you know, I'm not arguing for an idea of Mary that doesn't experience original sin. Like if I go along with this and I accept it, I'm not but you still exist in the world outside the garden.
Yeah, you're not in the garden.
In the garden, you wouldn't experience you know, pregnancy issues, you wouldn't experience aging, But you're not in the fucking garden right now, right, Like that's it's the removal from the garden which accomplishes those things. I would argue, now original sin brings about death and aging. Yeah, but like also it's just kind of like and then as a result, you need to get the fuck out of here the place where things don't suck, right, and you've got to go and be in the place.
That sucks instead. And so but the point is we know she does she experiences the consequences of of childbirth being painful, et cetera. So that that can't be right, that's just theologically in corect.
Yeah, like you I guess, I guess. My question is like how far do you take this? Because so like in their imaginations, are all of the good Biblical characters. You know, you're Moseses, your God. I'm sorry, you're Moseses, your Jesus, your Abraham, Paul, the Apostle, whatever? Are they all hot? After Paul? After Saul on the Road of Damascus, has the scales fall from his eyes? Does he become more attractive? Like like, yes, what is the cutoff here?
I don't. I don't because they they have to know that there are plenty of very holy people who have like leprosy, like you know that, like a guy with leprosy or somebody who lost an arm in an accident or something, you know, And it's just like I just don't understand where the where the cutoff is? You know?
Yeah, I mean I think that.
This is a really interesting point, Luke, because it's like if so, for example, one of the things that we tend to see, very specifically with female saints and very specifically in the medieval period is they're they're all.
Baddies, Yeah, like all of them, like to the.
Point that they are completely interchangeable, and you need to make sure that they have their little symbols with them when you paint them, because you're not gonna be able to tell the difference between Saint Agnes and Saint Catharine and Saint Barbara unless they've got little lamb and the little wheel and a little tower, because it's like, well, they're all hot and that means one thing. So you depict them in exactly the same way. So you have
to have like the little the little cheap coade. And this isn't true of the male saints, like I mean, they've got like more lore true. But it's like you instantly know who John the Baptist is.
Yeah, he's carrying his head around on him.
Yeah, exactly right, like because he's dressed in like weird shit, like because he got dreadlocks, you know, like all this stuff. But you can bring me, Oh go ahead, sorry, you know, I mean, but but it is it is a question, right, It's like, so do you then like experience some do you do you like get a glow up and when
you become more Christian? And I mean that's actually a theological question that I would love to ask Augusty, like you do you become more attractive or was that possibility always within you?
So something is simply unlocked and you were already.
Hot, right Yeah?
Yeah, I mean I obviously you can't like reasoning out like a whole thing with this is it's like kind of silly because you know, a lot of this stuff doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny. But like it's it's like, you know, they knew of people who were poor and wretched, yet who were loved by God. Do you know we've talked about the the leper Lazarus and the Bible. You know, he died, he was afflicted by all these these illnesses. He died and immediately went
to the bosom of Abraham. And uh, it's you know, like where does it? It's just it does like there's such a big hole in it for me that I'm just like where, like where does this end? Like because like if somebody's born and they're just kind of homely looking but they're the most like holy person ever, like and you see their works and acts, do you think that they're still closet center and heretic because they are mid or whatever?
I mean, Literally, this is this is a debate, right, And this is certainly a debate that that we see and you see this kind of happen all the time when we are very specifically talking about are you going to try to make yourself.
Meet the beauty standard or not?
Right, So, you know, it was very interesting to me when when she says in that tweets like oh, we should all be striving for X y Z, and it's like, oh, you mean like striving for beauty, Because then there's also this this big debate where it's like, well, if you're born mid, you shouldn't be attempting to become beautiful because that's artifice and it's essentially lying. So like makeup is lying, Plucking your eyebrows is lying, Plucking your.
Hair, your your your brow line is lying.
Right, So all of those things are actually forms of untruth and as a result, you would be being worse if you attempt to do these things and live up to the beauty standard. Right. So yeah, and then there is just kind of this idea that like a chick who's mid, well she's not she's not really got what it takes to be truly holy.
Now, now a chick who's mid who lives with.
It is better spiritually than a chick who's meeting the beauty standard but faking it though, So it's kind of like and there's like a lot of making fun of chicks who attempt to meet the beauty standard, Like we see this in we see this in Chaucer, you know, like one of the the Alison in the Miller's Tail, they make fun of her because she plucks her eyebrows and you shouldn't be plucking your eyebrows. Your eyebrows should naturally be like a high arch and black, and you
shouldn't be doing anything about that. So it's like it's like a way of making fun of a woman who does that. You know, there there are literal statutes on the books where it's like if you find out a sex worker was wearing makeup, you can sue her and she has to give you money back because it's false advertising. Jesus Christ, and like that's not that's not about sin per se, because like obviously were we already you know, like we're already in that.
But it's like it's a sin on a sin, right.
It's so it takes me, it takes me in my mind back to us talking about the side wound of Christ and nuns who would specifically have you know, uh, wet dreams about Jesus or actively masturbate them whatever they you know, whatever, whatever, whatever, I'm not judging it. Good for you, Like that's the only half naked guy you see. Knock yourself out, lady. Did this apply to Jesus as well?
Like was he because yeah, yeah, yeah, Jesus is a hotty.
Yeah yeah, that's what I thought.
Oh yeah, yeah, So like, oh yeah, you're bang on.
Jesus fucking ripped.
He's ripped this ship.
You know, like he's always got like you know, he's he's always kind of like he's giving, right, he's.
Got he's got the like he's got the chad jawline, you.
Know, like he's he's always living up to the masculine aesthetic for beauty. Certainly, you know, like there's a lot less I mean, ironically, it's like, you know, the Protestant Jesus, who's usually like the really white Jesus. There's a there's a bit more of like at least kind of like usually making him have brown hair, you know, uh, a kind of a kind of a deal.
But you.
Do see that he's kind of like living up to whatever it is we we expect to see from him.
But this kind of a lot of.
The time doesn't apply to the male saints in the same way. So it's like it really depends on who you are. But you know, like the Bishop Saints, dude, no one gives us ship, like you know, the Bishop Saints.
It's like that that's just some bishop, right, Like I mean, actually, like some of them, I guess that, Like Saint Francis is a baddie.
Yeah.
Seen, he's kind of like he kind of you know, he's wizened. He kind of you know, and he's got the birds around. You know, he's got the birds, the birds.
One can go either, right, homie, Like sometimes he's hot. Sometimes he's hot, you know, and it's like he's got the he's got the taunture and stuff that's supposed to put you off.
But it's like he's still You're.
Like, you're like, I can do I don't have to look at that ship while I'm like that put your hood up in your head back. I don't give it. Yeah, I don't know, Like I'm you know, like can I can I tolerated it with him going down on me, I guess to find out.
We're going to find out up Like.
Now, I'm just imagining like some excavation finds like a you know, a thirteenth century uh you know icon of Francis of a CC and he just like, uh, his like robe is ripped down the middle and it's like hanging down. He's got cum gutters and he's just like absolutely you know, like somehow they like included like sweat and like steam pouring off his body in the icon.
You like, what the fuck is this is literal pornography, Like there's no question, Like you guys were just like he's got like the gray sweatpants like a hog, like Jesus, Francis my guy.
Oh whoa no, okay, but but this is my god.
I do think that usually for the Saints that have had some kind of turn, like part of their story is that they were living a life of debauchery and they've turned. They're usually hot to begin with, and they're and they're like kind of using their they're using their hotness for misbegotten reasons. So for example, you know, you know, Francis was a fuck boy, Like he was a party boy.
That's what he was doing.
And then you know, one day he wakes up and realizes that he needs to like stop fucking batties and like and.
Think about God.
And this is also like a really similar thing that we see, uh from the so called prostitute saints, right, you know, their term, not mine. So Mary of Egypt is a very famous sex worker and she's absolute haughty, like so so beautiful and is incredibly wealthy as a result of being so hot. And so the idea here is that, like I think that the spiritual goodness lives within them as and is being misappropriated, so it can always kind of be turned right. So it's a property that they are.
Misapplying, and it needs it needs.
To be re reoriented in the correct direction. And I mean, certainly we will always see if you are, for example, one of the royal woman saints, they're always going to go on about how you're hot, you know, but they kind of have to because like you're a princess. Isn't a saint, right, And they'll be like, oh, and she was beautiful and she could have been this like successful queen, but she.
Is in Yeah, we've i mean we've talked about it before, but I do really appreciate it when, like, you know, when you can tell through the writing and somebody was actually like just broadly considered one of the hottest people alive, like you know, and because they're like, oh the queen was a lovely woman, blah blah blah, and then they start talking about am Bolin and they're like, dog, those hips, oh eleanor Aquitaine, my god, Like you know, you're just like, okay, okay,
you know, you're just like what.
The yeah, you can you expand on that?
No, dog, Like she's so wondering.
Yeah, And I mean I'm not and I'm sure they were beautiful obviously not saying anything like that, but like I'm wondering if you know, like you know, like a London five was a lot lower than what a London five is now, and you know, and so like.
Well, so this brings me, This brings me on to like my next point, which is that you know, her whole being like, well, beauty, beauty isn't subjective. Absolutely fucking is subjective thing.
In the world. The only, maybe the only thing more subjective than beauty is taste in food and taste in music. Like there's there's nothing more subjective.
I'm sorry, but like, look at the original, like look at the medieval images of Mary that you're waxing rhapsodic about right now, and you're telling me you think that's hot. You're you're telling me that you're like, hell yeah, bitch, I want to see forehead.
I want I want.
A pale chick with a face like an egg, who looks like she's pregnant, who's got tiny little tits at her armpits, huge dump truck ass.
That's what's hot to me. Like, no, no, it's not.
No, it fucking isn't, because like your your tastes have been subverted and changed, like along with our culture, and we do not consider what you know, Like, no one is like going for the plucked forehead look anymore.
Yeah, you know, like leave it at that.
Nobody wants a woman who looks like well, that's not true. There might be, but most people don't want a woman who looks like Walton Goggins, where like that air begins like behind the crown of the head. He's very hot. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that's not the beauty standard for women. Ninety nine percent of men now.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, and and and it absolutely was in the medieval period. And you know it's you know to the point where you know, whatever, I'm like posting pictures of medieval batties, people are like, why is she pregnant?
And I'm like, she's not.
Dog they wanted a little budge.
Yeah, they just they just like that, you know.
And it's like and it's like this is the thing like that people do not understand, like when people have all these stupid arguments about like, uh, it's so so hot, like oh, guys are like I'm not fucking anything below and nine, but women are like, oh fuck uh Steve Bussimy's uh deformed twins. Sorry Steve, Steve b Simmy's twin brother who was kept in an attic and fed fish
heads all his life. Uh, he's the bat. It's like okay, like sure, Like it's it's just subjective, like people value things more like if you got a bunch of money, but your ugliest shit, that's gonna be hot to someone because somebody values like personal like uh, economic stability more than they value like a you know, a big dick or what it like, you know, and like some women are like big Dick's way too much for me, Like that's that's just a thing, you know, And so like
you you get the varied stuff and then it's just like, yeah, the medieval Mary is like, that's not what you think a woman like should look like now. And it's very clear when you do the AI image and she looks like I don't even know how to describe it, like the like she's like looking off and she's like, oh so like the like the traad wife, aesthetic hot hottie with brown hair and like a veil kind of like it's like, yeah, what is like.
Like you can't you can't, you know.
And the reason you didn't post a fourteenth century image of Mary to show this is because they're not hot. That's not they're not people now consider hot. They might be like, yeah, it's still you know, i'd still get down. Whether that's not that's that's a that is a different, that's different. Whether it is subjectively like eight to ten level hot.
On the complete les completelys. Yeah. And I just think that you two things can be true, right.
It is true that there have been these arguments that Mary was hot, and the other thing can be true, which is that you probably wouldn't find her attractive.
Now, yeah, I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure that that. Yeah, I'm sure that millions of people throughout history, maybe maybe more than many millions of people have found Mary to be hot because this is the conception that people had of beauty standards, now what they actually thought she looked like in their heads, and probably completely different for all people.
Of course, there's an argument to be made here that, like, you simply create the idea of Mary that you know you want to see in the world, so you make Mary as whatever it is that you think is hot.
But like that and the historical Mary are going to be two completely different things, because she would have been, in theory meeting the beauty standard of Palestine in the year zero common area, right, and it's and it's simply not going to be the same thing as our beauty standard now, and you know it's it would be one thing if you were saying, yeah, look, and what I'm saying saying is that, like you know, this is this is an artist, this is an artistic motif and we just need to go with it.
And these are the things that I find useful about it.
That would be fine, but she's acting as though there's kind of an a priori hotness that you can link to spirituality and that that should be shown in art, and it's not and you can't.
So I thank her.
I wanted to say say I thank her for this theological puzzle.
It was actually kind of fun for me because.
I was like, to an extent, this is an actual medieval idea on display. And I'm always stoked when there are people who have medieval thoughts in their head run in their mouth online but fundamentally like it's like you're but wrong in the back half, right, like and and and I and I think that's beautiful, right. I was genuinely thinking about this for ages. So I was like, thank you for agreeing with me to these people.
These like some of the stuff is just like it's is delightful. It was like I was talking about I don't remember what episode it was talking about, like the Marcianist guy who is like, we should get rid of the Old Testament. That's just you know, lying Jew propaganda or something like that, and and it's like that's not good, and this like beauty standard stuff is not good. But like on some level, I do kind I am kind of happy that people like this still exist who are like, no,
this is what it says. I'm taking it to its logical extent. You know. I'm just I'm maximalist on like Mary being hot or whatever, and you know that in order to get there, you have to be like, yeah, beauty is objective. There is a universal human standard for
what is hot, and this is what it is. And it's just like no. But I think the other thing that we didn't we didn't get too much here that I that I really loved was that she basically acts like Protestant Mary and Catholic Mary are two different human beings.
Like until fifteen seventeen, there was only one virgin Mary, and then in fifteen seventeen, when there was when Protestantism came about, all of a sudden, a second mid Mary showed up next to like hot Mary in like the historical record like just just appeared there, like like a time traveler had written something in the past or whatever.
And I mean, like it is very funny because she could say like the Protestant Mary motif, like if she just like threw motif, which just fine, Yeah, that would.
Be fun She's an afterthought of Protestantism.
Yeah, yeah, but you know it is quite funny because I mean, yeah, they had to make her less sexy because everyone was getting too horny. Like I mean that's like literally what happened. Like everyone was too hard for Mary and they were like, oh no, like.
So she get away this.
You know, there the would be there'd be a better and more fun argument to make here. I think about how well Catholics are just like more pure minded and they can handle batty Mary.
Protestants are filthy.
I do not know that I would make that argument given everything we know at church, but you knocked yourself out.
I just think it would be a funnier way of doing I just I just think that, like if I was gonna do it, if I.
Was doing it, I would just go in all the way and I'd be like, damn, well, if you're getting turned on by Mary, like there's something wrong with you, like we're we're we're all over here, just like appreciating imaginary Mommy and how beautiful she is. No, no one's horny over on the Catholic side, you know.
And then the Protestants, you know, they can be like, oh we're gonna out woke them. Then oh yeah, we love our Mary so much. She doesn't even look different. She's just a normal person in the Catholics. Like, god, damn it, we can't out woke thought something else? Something else? Okay, okay, she was a single mother. No damn, that one doesn't work.
But it's just so funny too, because like I just really don't think.
I mean, I know all these people hate the Pope, but I don't think that Francis is like hanging out at the moment like being like, damn, like we really got to consider whether or not Mary, Like what like would I would smash Mary?
Right?
Like I'm imagining like running in like get like getting on a plane to Rome, and they're like, Pope, Francis condition has deteriorated. He has at most two days left to live, like getting on like flying to Rome somehow getting past all the security and everything, Like, father, I have one question before you go? Did you ever jerk off to marry? Like? And he like crosses himself. He's like, of course, my son, we all do. And I'm like, yes, I knew it, I knew it.
Yeah, what if what if I make a wish? Child's uh last way just to beat it to Mary.
Then well then Pope, and he's like, i'd still be that's not even of course I would beat it to marry then I already said I would. Anyway, what are you talking like? Y? No, this is great, Like I do. One of my favorite parts of the show is when we just get to do something like this and use it for like full uh, like to to talk about
something with the Middle Ages. It'd be like, look, you know, we we love the Middle Ages, but sometimes eh, let's h I don't know about all I don't know about all this, all this, uh.
Yeah, all this is like, look, I'm obsessed with these guys. They're my favorite little guys. I'm not saying that they aren't fucking weird us.
No, we've opened up here, like I need to like, if if this is how you believe, that's fine, But every depiction I need Like a leper who is a sinner and he was always a sinner and everything, but then he turns to God later on in life. Maybe he's still a leper, but they can't change that. But all of a sudden, you know, he's like he's looking good. You know, he's just like damn that that is one sexy leopard like I need eat like you know, I need consistency here.
That's yeah. Well lepers are lust of course.
Yeah, yeah, well we're glad. We hope you enjoyed it. Le beauty standards, folks, they are something else, they really are. And uh yeah, we'll be back on Friday. If you're a patron, We're going to uh cover u a couple of topics on that Patriots of vastis about that don't really fit into full a full episode, but yeah, we're going to talk about uh the gay ship that goes on in monasteries, which is a quote from the question. Yeah, we're going to talk about uh ship. I forgot the
other ones, but yeah, that is one of them. I can't remember why I've forgotten the other ones now because I'm a moron.
I'm going to be right reading a lot of quotes about gay shit, monastery.
Patrons, the donation of Constantine, and corpse roades. So yeah, we're going to talk about all those and go through them, and that'll be out on Friday, and then later in the month we will of course have our third episode on the Cameron, so yeah, check that out on Patreon. But that's gonna do it for us today. Not sure what we'll do next time. Maybe a maybe answer some questions, maybe maybe something else. We'll see eleanor.
We're going to figure it out.
We'll figure it out. What's going on with you?
Yeah, no, mate, I'm just like mostly hanging out on the socials.
You see your girl at going Medieval.
It's short week here in the United Kingdom, so don't know how much I'm gonna get to. I need to do some writing, but I've just been dicking around. If I'm being honest with you, I think your girl burnt herself out again.
So I'll try to get.
Something written by the end of the month, I promise. But in the meantime, yeah, just like, come watch me dicking around.
I guess yeah, you know me always dicking around. Luke is amazing. On the socials. You can find my old show, People's Sister of the Old Republic if you want to hear me yap about Star Wars. But that is going to do it for us today. Thank you all very much for listening, and we'll see you next time.
Bye.