Let's do it. You want to pray today? No, I'm not ready for that yet, but I will in the near future. All right. Father, in Jesus' name, what a privilege it is to be before you. We truly do get to do this. It's not just a moniker. It's not just a saying or a slogan. It is a truth. We get to do what we do. And so thank you that we're here today. and to converse and talk about you, about the world, about other things, whatever it is Holy Spirit that you'd bring to our mind.
And our heart's desire is that the things we talk about, maybe perhaps the things that are anointed and appointed for such a time as this, would help those who are listening to navigate and deal with this crazy life in this world. And so we pray, pray for everyone who hears this, that you would take this where it needs to go. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. It's Wednesday, October 1st. We get to do this. This is episode number four. We get to do this. Yes, we do get to do
this. We do and it's our privilege and it's our joy to do so. Absolutely. How you doing, brother? Hey, I'm doing great. It's been a hot minute. It's been a wild week. Like two weeks. What is today, by the way? October 1st. There you go. We missed one because you were off in Nashville? Nashville. You got to tell us about Nashville, about the Nashville trip. So the Nashville trip was we took Pastor Brian and Naomi and Nomers, as I call her. I've called her that for 20 years.
So their folks live there, Pastor Brian's. parents live there, and they're dear friends of ours. We've known them for decades. And so anytime we go back to Nashville, it's kind of a homecoming to get together with the Mandels, to get together with my kids and my newest grandbaby. Also in Nashville. They're in Nashville as well. But we were going for a conference that Alan Jackson puts on every year. It's called Culture and Christianity.
And the unique thing about it this year that made it really, I guess, special, you'd say, or just different, is that Charlie and Erica Kirk were scheduled to be the keynote speakers. Yeah, that definitely didn't happen, I guess. That didn't happen, but it put a different tone and spin on the whole thing. The atmosphere was absolutely electric. The place was packed to the rafters. It was a sellout. and they house about 15 ,000 people. It's crazy. Really? That's
how big the church is? Oh, it's huge. The church is 15 ,000. That's crazy. And growing. Wait, does Alan Jackson have his own jet? Because that's always what people think of. They think of mega church jet. I actually don't think he does. By the way, I was offered a jet. I didn't get to tell you this. What? I know. Hold on a second. I know, right? You're not going to tell me you turned it down. No, I just haven't. I talked to the guy last week and said, let's talk about
it. I know it's crazy. Can I fly it, please? So here's the deal. He heard, he heard me talking from him. Hey, we had to make a dash over here. I was on the airplane. When I got the news that Charlie Kirk had been shot, we were coming back. You're on Southwest. Cattle car. Herb's cattle car. Absolutely. And so, you know, we're watching other people, we're all grabbing our iPads and phones. But anyway, he heard me tell that story.
And he was like, man, he said, you shouldn't have to take a three hour flight from, you know, San Antonio. Well, right. From Dallas Love, basically. Of course, you got to stop in love and to get here from Nashville. And he really felt bad about that. But he's an entrepreneur and he's got international businesses. And he just wrote me and said, hey, Man, I'm not trying to make any money here. I mean, if you just cover fuel and the pilot. That's
what it costs. He said, man, I'd be glad to make sure you have dibs on that plane when you need to go. Wow. And so, yeah, I was going to tell you about that. That's actually how the big boys do it. It's like you want my plane, just got to pay for the pilot and the fuel. Yeah. So I guess technically you could say Pastor Jimmy has a plane. So let's, come on haters. Let's use it. Let's grab all the haters. Just pile on. because as long as I go, I'll pay for it,
then it's good. So anyway, that opportunity awaits. So that was a really cool thing. I've never had anyone offer me a plane before. Except for me. Well, you, and that's different because we're besties, but I mean, you know, just somebody in the congregation who's got that kind of access and says he wants to help us out and yeah. Anyway, so I interrupted you about that. I don't own one, but so yeah. Believe me, owning aircraft is way overrated, I can tell you. It's like owning
a boat. Worse. So we were there for that conference. The tone was different, as I mentioned. So what they did, they brought in Eric Metaxas in place, you know, to fill that slot. Eric is just such a, he's just really has a finger on the pulse of things. And so I loved what he brought. Every speaker knew Charlie personally. So there was a lot of weight in the room. I mean, you could feel the gravity of mourning, the gravity of grief in the room. And yet at the same time,
there was this incredible electricity. Like there was... When we went into worship, Matthew West and his daughter came out and that was really cool and led worship. She was phenomenal, by the way, and she's young, but wow, I think she's 18. But they came out and led worship. The first time he came out with the band, second session, it was her and him with a spotlight on each of them and just him with his guitar. I love the band, obviously, but that was actually more worshipful.
They did some of his songs. Of course. You know the he did the song. Unashamed? Yeah, unashamed. But he did the version where Matt, by the way, Matt Munt, our buddy, he's the one who grabbed all the pieces out of that. Did he have those pieces in that? It's on Hello Fred right now. Yeah, I love it. When it comes on, I get chill bumps. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, so when I was with Matt Munt in Tennessee doing his podcast,
that's another story I'm going off. But anyway, so I asked Matt, because he works with Matthew West, I said, Did you do the, you know, bites or the music or the editing? He said, I didn't do the editing, but I did pull off the clips for that. Like, that's so awesome. It's so good. And Matt's such a great guy. But it is, the song is fantastic. I mean, he does, it seems like every year he comes out with an anthem. Yeah. Yeah. Just kind of a big anthem. Yeah. Let's
pray, you know, don't stop praying. I'm unashamed with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Just solid. It's perfect. Solid. Perfect. So yeah, so they interjected Charlie's... some quotes and stuff, and somebody else, a couple other people. I wasn't sure who it was. There's a couple other voices in there. But anyway, it was very powerful. So yeah, so I could spend time. So we did that conference. It was, like I said, electric. We go out there because it fills our tanks, fills our buckets.
And it's really a lot of what we've been talking about just as friends for many years is Bringing culture and Christianity together and speaking outside the walls of the church, which is is just I'm so proud of our church I'm so proud of the the staff and everybody here because it really it resonates so well and that you see it's filling up We got people are parking in my spot passage. You mean We had people showing up early this week because that very reason I
was unreal. I've never seen this before There is a phenomenon going on. I was listening to Josh Howerton and Jason McPherson, several mega church pastors, but they're all young. These guys are in their 30s and 40s, and they're mega church pastors. There's five of them. They're all talking back and forth about the Charter Kirk effect, what happened, the impact, what it's doing to their churches. Of course, they have mega churches. Most of their churches are
non -denominational, large churches. you know, we're talking tens of thousands of people in these churches. Josh Howerton, I mean, he's in his 40s, early 40s. His church runs 27 ,000 people in person. Wow. Not just online, not just, I mean, 27 ,000. Where is his church? He's in Rockwall, Texas, just east Dallas, east of the lake. That's insane. I know. What an amount of people. Amazing. Phenomenal young pastors. These are kind of the up -and -coming voices. Do you think at some
point it's too big? Can a megachurch be... I mean, what is... Because for Fredericksburg's population, we have a megachurch. Yeah, we would be considered that. You know, like a thousand people. Is there a point where it's too big? Have you ever thought about these things? Oh yeah, I've thought about it a lot. I mean, it kind of depends on your personality as a leader. I've never aspired for that. That's not something that makes me get excited. wanting to have 15
campuses and 30 ,000 people. Sounds like a job. Sounds like a big J -O -B, right? But I'm very relational and very personal, so I like to know who's in the church and I like to have friends in the church. I was sitting with a group of pastors. I'm going to just go chase this little rabbit because I'm going to talk about this tonight. A couple of weeks ago, I was sitting with some young pastors. And they're all having a hard time. They're kind of struggling in their churches.
They're small churches and they can't get a lot of traction. I've talked to them about engaging culture and they're like, oh, we can't do that. They would fire me next week. I mean, these guys, but they have 80 people, 50 people, 40. I mean, it's hard. I remember being young and doing all that, paying my dues. This is how you get your reps in. And so I was talking to them and one of the guys, Somehow the topic came up about having friends in the church and he goes, oh
no, I have no friends. I will never have friends in the congregation. I mean, first of all, the look on my face probably gave me away because I'm just like, oh, Pastor Jimmy doesn't agree with that. You're all 40 years old and you're telling me, he said, because you got to maintain your authority. They got to know you're the pastor. And I'm sitting there going, there's a reason why you only have 30 people in your church. Yeah. You didn't say that out loud. No, but I certainly
thought it. Because I didn't want to come back and say something cutting. I didn't want to disparage him. But the way he said it was with such conviction. And I just thought, even if I said something, it wouldn't have been gone. It's not really the pastors, but their elders or their board won't let them do that. That's what it sounds like. Are you talking about culture or having friends in the church? Well, both, maybe. Let's talk
about, yeah, those are separate issues. A lot of churches that are elder -led or we'll call them deacon -possessed. I know, right? They are hard on their pastors. They put a lot of restrictions around them. And so if you're a congregational -led church, that means the church votes on everything. Right. You can get in some hot water. Yeah, I can see. So it really depends on your government structure. We built a structure where, you know, the staff and then we have lay elders, but we
have staff elders. So we do the day to day. We're boots on the ground. Right. And we get to make those decisions. But then we defer to our board of directors, which is like the apostolic council of Acts 15. So we built on that model. What it allows us to do is get things done. We're not sitting in red tape and waiting for everybody to vote and then seeing people do mutinies and voter registration to get that guy out. I've seen that ugly stuff in churches before. That's
how you get a church split. We didn't build that way. Neither do these churches that are growing. The churches that are growing and moving the needle in the world right now are churches that are getting it done and they've got a structure that allows them to do that. As far as the culture thing, a lot of these young pastors feel restricted. You know, when I made the decision to go full speed ahead, I had to count the cost because
I did not know what would happen. It was an act of faith, but it was also an act of conviction before the Lord that I felt like as a pastor, I have a responsibility to speak the truth because of love. Speak the truth in love, speak the truth because of love. And to hold back, God had moved me into a place where it would be sin for me. The scripture says that for a man to know what to do and not do it to him, it is sin. That's the scripture. Do you know which one it is by
any chance? I can tell you. It's not that important. It's in the Bible. It's in the New Testament. It's at the end. It is in the New Testament. I do know it's in the back half of the Bible. See, that's me. So anyway. I felt like to not begin to address these things and really go there would be sin for me because once you have truth and you have a revelation or understanding of something, you're now responsible for it before
God. As a pastor, that weighs heavy because I'm not only responsible to God, I'm responsible to hundreds of people or maybe even thousands, depending on your scope and reach. And so anyway, these guys are scared. And maybe they don't have the same level of conviction I do about culture because they love their Bible studies and they talk about their preaching and their sermons all the time. I never talk about my preaching and my sermons. I talk about the message. The
sermons come and go. It's the message that we carry that matters because the message is the one thing. It's the bullet. It's the shot, hopefully heard around the world. And so anyway, Walking with these guys is interesting, but to hear a young pastor say, I don't have friends in the church. I will never have friends in the church because they need to know who the authority is. And I'm like, whoa, I didn't say this, but you know me. I like to play on the worship team.
Yes, you do. And it's not just because I like to play music. That's there. Of course, I love playing guitar and I've done it for my whole adult life as a Christian. But the other piece of it, it allows me to be a church member. It allows me to contribute something that's not preaching, that's not leading. I'm submitted to Pastor Russ, our worship pastor. And if he tells me he doesn't like that lick or tone that down... How could he, Pastor Jimmy? Your licks
are the best. I say, yes, sir. Yes, sir. I remember I didn't tell Russ this ever, but it'll be a joke if he hears this about five years ago. I mean, I'd only been here a few years ago. He was a little more temperamental back then. And he turned and snapped at me one time in rehearsal and he did not like what I played. And he made a snarky comment, I quit for six months. I was like, okay, I don't need another headache in
the church. So I stepped off the team for six months and that's not why I took a break this last year. That's a whole different thing. I just really just focused. So yeah, I quit because he made me mad. We got into a tuss. You rage quit the worst team. I took my toys and went home. Obviously, Charlie Kirk dominates our world, dominates the world of faith of the church. I have a couple of things that I brought with me today because you know me. I'm doing my prep.
First of all, you blew my mind this past week. You blew my mind. Read the Bible. I've read it twice. Every day I'm in it for an hour. I'm reading things over and over again. And you sent me a scripture that I'm like, how did I never see this before? And it is Isaiah 812. And I love this so much because there's so much, right now particularly, where the whole world, and it doesn't matter how many times I... I go through it. The whole world is in Charlie Kirk, death conspiracy,
the magic bullet is the catapact. And so, this scripture fits it so well. I think that's why, again, we text several times a day, so I think that's why I sent it to you. Actually, I'm going to read 11 through 17, because even in my Bible, it's indented, which I think means something. And it has a heading in my Bible, a call to trust the Lord. So it starts with 11. The Lord has given me a strong warning not to think like everyone
else does. He said, and this is Isaiah who received this word, don't call everything a conspiracy. Hello. Wow. Boom, got my attention. Drop the mic. Like they do. And don't live in dread of what frightens them. Make the Lord of heaven's armies holy in your life. He is the one you should fear. He is the one who should make you tremble. He will keep you safe, but to Israel and Judah, So, I went, I read like five different translations, went back to King James conspiracy using King
James. Wow. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. But I also pulled up the message version. And so there it says, a boulder blocking your way. It's a little more. Now, interestingly, the message Bible doesn't use the term conspiracy, which I found unfortunate. But God spoke strong to me, grabbed me with both hands, warned me not to go along with this people. And so I take it not as, you know, there aren't conspiracies. It's like, don't bother with that. Don't what
these people say. He makes a clear distinction. These people are doing conspiracy stuff. That's fine. Doesn't mean there's not conspiracies and things going on, but trust in the Lord. which comes right back to put down your screens, pick up your Bible. That's really where my thinking is going. But I do have a bit of a conspiracy to discuss. Right after it says don't call everything
a conspiracy. Five words. Not everything. But what's happening is, so on one side, and unfortunately there's sides here, we're all obsessed with who killed Charlie, all of these wild things, body armor, ricochets, on and on and on and on. Holograms. Holograms. CGI, AI, on and on and on and on.
And I understand it, I understand why people, we've been raised on TV shows where it all gets resolved in 22 minutes minus the commercials, you know But I have been studying a lot about the true enemy of America and and obviously the devil is the enemy but when I look historically as we come up on a 250th, there's still a lot of Old world that does not like what we did which is you know, we left England we said hey King, you're the church, you're the boss of the Church
of England, you're not letting us pray how we want to, not worship the way we want to. We're going to start our own thing, we're going to do it over here in this new land, and all of the United States, all of America was founded on the Bible. Just look at the Founder's Bible to understand that and see all the original documents from the Mayflower Compact. Actually, when they put the cross before the Mayflower Compact, that was... Where was that? They made that declaration.
I've got that actually. Bedford, but it wasn't Bedford. No, it was... They put the cross up. It's called the Dedication Prayer of 1607 in Jamestown. Jamestown, that's it. Right. And so they said, hey man, this is it. We're here to spread the gospel. We're going to build this new land. But it's not like the East India Company from the Netherlands or... the bloodlines of all these countries that have monarchies really
went away. And we don't want to go too deep into it, but I've always thought, is this really just ceremonial? Well, no, of course it's not. So I think there's a lot coming out of the monarchies, and they have their own deep state and everything that is really... What nation doesn't? True. that is very, that is messing with us. And I think that we are blessed by God with President Trump, who is literally fighting against that. And I think it's being overlooked, it's being
missed. And I just want to play one background clip of that. This is from two ladies, they're called Prometheus Action. And they actually come out of the Lyndon LaRouche camp. I don't know if you remember Lyndon LaRouche. classic guy. I mean, you know, for years, he's dead now, but for decades, he was always trying to uncover, you know, the truth of what's really going on in government, etc. And so they're older, our age, to be honest about it. And here's just a
little clip. They do they do shows like podcasts, I think every every other day or every two days. And I like a lot what they're saying. So I just wanted to set up our conversation with this on Sunday at the Charlie Cook Memorial. Our chronic infection with British foreign policy diseases began to be cured. Our founder's vision of the
United States was revived. Contrary to the British agent Henry Kissinger, we were again a sovereign nation living and building and creating according to God's laws, freeing ourselves from the empire's foreign wars. But you wouldn't know that from the media. The New York Times and others imply that the Kirk event weirdly joined religion with Donald Trump's America first, worker first economic policies. They said this had never happened before
at this scale. Here's the key quote. Perhaps never before at such a grand scale has such a fusion taken place in a public display. More than just a tribute to the style of Mr. Kirk's evangelical tradition, this service represented a pinnacle event reflecting the degree to which conservative Christianity has melded with Republican politics in the Trump era. But prior to the most recent run of total control of our foreign policy by the British Foreign Office, we were always
like this. All our founding documents and all our founders' foreign policies insisted We were guided by God in a continuous mission to find truth. We fled here to escape the forever wars of Europe's oligarchs. I'm Barbara Boyd, and I've been investigating and documenting the modern British financial empire's subversion of our country since 1973. So I play that just so they don't just hear it from me, that, you know, this is true. And you hear what the New York Times
writes like, this is crazy. What's going on in order for us as believers as people who want to speak into culture, if we want to address it, because we can't just go out hating everybody or like, you're over there, I'm over here. If we have to understand the other side to be understood, you have to first understand. And so, wow, the media, which most people won't listen to this. I'm the guy that listens to NPR. I'm the guy that watches MSNBC. It's really getting pretty
insane. And so this next clip is from what I call middle management of the North Sea Nexus of, you know, I think the Clintons, they are. the kind of the middle management kind of totally. Are you going to play her? Yes. Oh, I know what clip this is. Here it is. We haven't gotten to the more perfect union and we fought a civil war over part of it. And people have been protesting, you know, for hundreds of years that, you know, things were not as they should be given our ideals
and how we should be moving toward them. So I think that's what makes us so special as a country. And the idea that you could turn the clock back and try to recreate a world that never was dominated by, you know, let's say it, white men of a certain persuasion, a certain religion, a certain point of view. I take that, by the way, as straight white Christian men. You got it. That's exactly conservative. Just imagine anyone saying, Oh, black men. I mean, you'd be run out of town,
but no, that's okay. It's okay to say this. A certain persuasion, a certain religion, a certain point of view, a certain ideology is just doing such damage to what we should be aiming for. And we were on the path toward that. I mean, imperfectly, lots of, you know, bumps along the way. But I agree with you. We were on the right trajectory. And we know what the Clintons brought in. We do. I was thinking, let's define what
that trajectory is. Well, the trajectory she's talking about is gay marriage, abortion, trans, et cetera, et cetera. That's what she and Bill Clinton always stood for. And a larger covering of that would be Marxism 101. Amen. Exactly. Exactly. There's your rule book for radicals. Exactly. It's right there. So we don't have to worry too much about Hillary Clinton, but I know that the left, I'll just call it the left, they listen to NPR religiously, and NPR spins them
up to just an incredible degree. And one of my favorite podcasts, it's on the radio as well, to listen to is On the Media, where they discuss the media, but they really don't discuss the media, they just hate Trump. But in this case, they brought on a guy who is from, it's actually in the intro, he's a scholar, mind you, the Institute for Christian Jewish Islamic Studies, I believe, which is like, well, that's quite a lot of study
you got to do. That's a span. And they discussed the Charlie Kirk Memorial and what they believe Christians are doing and believe. And I think they're saying it's dangerous. So I wanted to run through a couple of these clips. And if you're bored of it, let me know. Oh, no. Let's talk. Because even I have questions about what they're
confidently saying is the truth. So they start off with an introduction of this guy, a little bit of background of Charlie Kirk, and then quickly they get into the seven mountains, which is something that, you know, We'll discuss it after you play the clip. Matthew D. Taylor is the senior Christian scholar at the Institute for Islamic Christian and Jewish Studies in Baltimore. He's been exploring the phenomenon that was and is Charlie Kirk and
his movement. He says Christianity wasn't always a central part of Turning Point USA or of Charlie Kirk's public persona. If you had asked me circa 2018, what are the most influential religious right or even Christian organizations in the country, Turning Point would not have been anywhere on that list. Today, it's probably number one. Do you believe that to be true? I thought Charlie really always came from a Christian believer background, and they're going to claim something
else here. He did, but if you think about 2018, how old was Charlie Kirk? He was a child. He was a kid. So he was coming out with a different tone. I mean, he was like straight out of the Patriot Academy kind of thing, young, wet behind the ears, figuring it out. And so yeah, he's definitely morphed over the years more into, I'm an evangelist who happens to comment on political issues. We'll continue. So Christianity was not a prominent feature of Charlie Kirk's conservative
advocacy organization Turning Point USA. But that did change in 2019, right? He met a California pastor named Robert McCoy. Yeah, Rob McCoy, who featured fairly prominently in the memorial service, is a pastor with an evangelical denomination called Calvary Chapel. And McCoy is a pastor of a church called Godspeak outside of Los Angeles, has been very involved in local politics, and he actually was the first church to invite Charlie
Kirk to speak there. Godspeak exploded in popularity during the pandemic because he flouted the church closure rules. He also introduced Kirk to the Seven Mountains mandate, which we've spoken about before, but give us a refresher. So, before we get to the refresher, do you know Pastor Rob? I do. Yes. Wonderful. So, I mean, I wasn't even saved when all this went down. But so he was really one of the the forerunners of, hey, you can't shut us down. Yes. There was a handful.
Jack Hibbs was another one. John MacArthur was another. There were several several Calvary Chapels. Now, John MacArthur was not Calvary Chapel, but he was he was a large, large, influential church, probably the most influential. So, yeah, they all they all said, we're not closing. Now, the Seven Mountains, a refresher. Before you say that, I've just got to call out the nuances here. Oh, you heard it. Oh, the seven mountains. Oh, the emphasis on the right, syllables. Wow. That's
Brooke Gladstone. Makes $400 ,000 a year doing this show. Which she can make all she wants, but yeah, it's so... Not national public radio. It's so one -sided public rate But that's why I listen to it because I want to know what people are thinking. Yeah, here we go So the the seven mountain mandate is a concept that comes out of charismatic evangelical circles It's it's sometimes framed as a strategy for cultural conquest.
It's also a prophecy that people believe was revealed by God to a prophet named Lance Wallnau. And the idea... I think Lance would love being called a prophet, don't you? I think he'd say, wow, thank you very much. I didn't know I was a prophet. It was revealed by God to a prophet named Lance Wallnau. And the idea is that every society can be divided up into seven arenas of cultural influence. education, family, religion, government, arts and entertainment, media, business,
and commerce. Each of those sectors of society is imagined as a mountain. And in this prophecy, the top of those mountains is either controlled by Satan and the demons or by God and the Christians, and there's no in -between. And so the mandate part is for Christians to take over the seven mountains, to rise to positions of cultural influence, to try to target those specific areas of influence in society, and then to let Christian influence
flow down from the tops of the mountain. They'll use democracy if it works for them, but the mandate, which they claim is from God, is for Christians to take over society. Hence this vision of merging religion and politics that resonated with Kirk. So while I don't think he's incorrect in his description, Right. Yeah, there's a lot I agree with. It drips with, they're going to take over no matter what, despite democracy, we're going to go for it. The nuances. Yeah, it's all in
the nuances. Inflections. Because what he's saying in terms of content, I'm going, yeah, yeah, I'm in line with that. But the way he's saying, it's not what you say, it's how you say. So, give me the Pastor Jimmy version of the seven mountain mandate. Yeah, I mean the seven mounds education religion slash faith family business government Arts and entertainment media. So those are just all these are this is just a simple way to categorize
culture. That's it Yeah, if if we have a cultural mandate what we call the apostolic mandate or the Great Commission is a cultural mandate and that is to go out and Disciple Jesus said make disciples of all nations not just one nation or not a handful of people all every nation. So as a Christian, I have a mandate, I have orders from my commanding officer to go and do this.
But you have to categorize things. I mean, in order for us to even metric something, you have to say, this is that, you have to define it. So Lance Wallnau, there were others, Bill Johnson was another one out of California, Bethel Redding, and there were many others who landed on these seven categories and all they are categories and there's nothing actually real about them. They're just names to say this is a segment of
society. That's a good point because they make it sound so cut and dry like here's these defined places. There's this conspiracy to go after these. That's exactly what they're trying to present. There's no secrets here. There are books on this saying, we've chosen these labels so that we know what we're shooting at. It's like as a hunter. When I was growing up, I hunted rabbits, squirrels, dove, quail, you name it, birds and stuff. You can't shoot a target that you can't see. You
can't hit a target you can't see. So all this is is giving labels to categories so you understand these are the seven mountains of culture. Another way to say it is these are the seven categories of culture. It's not that complicated. Do you Agree with the or what's your that's not a fair
question. What what's your feeling on? It's either run by God or by the devil well Because that's pretty black and white the way they the way they put that Okay, so you've got levels here, I mean in the most simplistic terms you've got God, and you do have the devil. The thing about it is they're not equal foes. You've got gods over everything. You've got the devil who's just trying to hang on until he gets cast into the lake of fire. So he's sort of struggling. So if you take
C .S. Lewis's approach, he wrote this amazing book called The Screwtape Letters, where it was just getting into the mind of the dark enemy, Satan. and say, basically, the old thing that Paul Harvey did, if I were the devil, remember that? It's classic. That'd be a great clip to play. But yeah, I mean, if I were the devil, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So this is similar. So yes, at one level, you do have God and you do have the devil. But at the end of the day,
Jesus gave us authority as believers. We have an apostolic or a dominion mandate in Genesis chapter 1 that we're to govern the earth. We're told that. This is what we're supposed to do. I created this earth. I created it for you. now go govern it. Now, if you use that language, it may mean something different to somebody in 2025 than it did in the Garden of Eden. Can you see how it scares people when they hear this? Oh, well, they think about, oh, they're trying
to create a theocracy. And that's not the case. I can see how someone who doesn't have any context would see that. But actually, it's not about creating a theocracy. That's what Augustine did. That's what Constantine did. Not Augustine, Constantine did. And we saw where that led. That did not
end well, nor is it continued to go well. So that's not what we're talking about because we're talking about in America, freedom of faith, freedom of religion, whatever your religion is, as long as you don't kill each other and you're not a danger to yourself and others. We want and welcome people of other faiths. But we also understand there was a dominant religion, a dominant faith,
and that is Christianity. And so while Hillary thinks we can't return to these silly ideals that never were, that was a real nice caveat she added on that. The next part, which is about Charlie Kirk as a martyr and martyrdom in general, and things do take a turn here, of course. The rhetorical frames around martyrdom, they're not just limited to inspiring a lot of conversions. They can also spur some real violence. Yeah, and this is the dual nature of a martyr narrative,
right? On the one hand, people like Stephen are seen as models in that they do not provoke, they do not fight back, but instead they accept the persecution, right? And Jesus had taught his followers to bless the persecutors, to love their enemies. So that's the one track. And I think we saw that in Erica Kirk's declaration of forgiveness. My husband, Charlie, he wanted to save young men, just like the one who took his life. That
man. I forgive him. I mean, I don't know a Christian who was steeped in the teachings of Jesus who would say that was the wrong choice, right? Jesus taught us to forgive. Now, I think Stephen Miller and Donald Trump and the memorial service really embodied the other side of the martyr narrative. I hate my opponent. And I don't want the best for them. I'm sorry. I am sorry, Erica. But now Erica can talk to me and the whole group, and maybe they can convince me that that's not right,
but I can't stand my opponent. See, I wanted to believe that in there because President Trump leaves something open. We have to believe that he is a new believer. He has certainly said that he believes God saves him so he can save America. And that could very well be true. And he says, I'm not like Erica. I hate my opponent. He doesn't say opponents. But then after that, he says, Erica and the group can certainly come and try to convince me otherwise. I really, that made
me hopeful. Because even I forgot what he had said. I thought he had said the enemy, but it was the opponent. And that last bit, I think that's really quite extraordinary. Let me just play that again. And I don't want the best for them. I'm sorry. I am sorry, Erica. There's room there. There's room there. What's your feeling on that in general? Well, when I saw it roll out, you know, my first thought was... Please go back to the teleprompter. Get back on script.
Come on. Cause I mean, we've watched Donald Trump since, you know, since the early days. His first go around, every time he'd go off script, it'd be like, kind of like Biden going off script. Yeah, that was awesome fun. So, but also if you watch the video, it's so different hearing it with no context. when you've watched the whole service roll out. And he said it in a very tongue in cheek way. He was grinning. He was kind of laughing. He was just making, he was being Donald
Trump, being an old New York curmudgeon. I mean, so when I hear it, it doesn't sound offense. I wish he hadn't said it, of course, because my first thought was there's ammo for people who hate him. Because I like him. I want to protect him, right? I don't just see him as the president of the United States. I see him as a new brother in Christ and I want to help him. I'm for him.
Forget policy. Forget all this stuff. One of the things that we're commanded in scripture to do is pray for those who are in leadership. That's coming up. I've prayed for Joe Biden. I've prayed for Hillary. After that clip, I'm really going to pray for Hillary. She needs lots of prayer. I've prayed for all of them by name. It's truly. So I'm for Trump, but boy, to hear him do that. But I saw that I was watching, were we four or five hours in at this point? Because
this was at the end. So it was probably five hours in. And in the context, in the tongue and cheek way he said it, because he was grinning, he was laughing, he said it like, but he said it like old Trump just popping off, he would say. But of course, everybody camps out on it. And they just go there. They go for the jugular, so to speak. Well, and again, I just felt that last bit is like, hey, I'm open. I'm open. Convince me. Because who's the group? Eric, it's not Turning
Point USA. It's the office of faith. It's all the people surrounding him. So I pray that that takes place. Me too, brother. And now we get into... historical stuff, which is just like, what are you doing, NPR? When Pope Urban II proclaims the First Crusade in 1095 CE... So now they're still on martyrdom and violence. This is the
big one. When Pope Urban II proclaims the First Crusade in 1095 CE, his rationale for why Christians need to go and slaughter Muslims and also Jews was that they have devastated the Kingdom of God. They are killing... our brothers and sisters, our fellow Christians in the East, and we need to go and rescue those Christians. But then again, we also need to take back the Holy Land. We need to take back Jerusalem, because it's the city of Jesus, right? And then there's the story of
Simon of Trent. And yeah, Simon of Trent was a young man who disappeared in the medieval period, and the Christians blamed the Jews. I know this is crazy stuff, but they put it in there, and I presume they had a reason for it, because I think the only reason is, hey, Be careful, Christians can be violent. That's what I'm hearing. They're
building it. The young man who disappeared in the medieval period, and the Christians blamed the Jews, and this was part of the blood libel idea of Jewish communities secretively drinking the blood of Christian children as part of their ritual ceremonies. And so the disappearance of Simon of Trent leads to pogroms and attacks and becomes part of the conspiracy theory narratives and the vilification of Jews by Christians, right?
Because a martyr is both a member of the community who is treasured and valued, but a martyr is also a symbol that can be wielded for great violence. It is one of the most potent forces in the Christian tradition. This is not merely another celebration of life. that we witnessed in the memorial or in the collective grieving over Charlie Kirk's death. This is a step change in the role of the religious right in American society and not just
in the United States, but around the globe. I believe this is the devil conjuring up stuff. Absolutely. And specifically, anti -Semitism, the Jews, the Jews, Israel killed Charlie, etc., etc. They're conjuring this. This to me was pure enemy that got into this so -called scholar. I don't know what you want to comment on. Well, as I'm listening to that, I'm thinking, why did they make this jump to violence? Where is the violence coming from right now? From the left.
And you look at where, I mean, you look at all the Charlie Kirk memorials that have been desecrated, who were they desecrated by? The left. over and over and over. Who rode through on a bike yelling F -U? I mean, who is creating chaos and havoc? It's not the religious right. This is Jacuz. You are what you say I am. This is very typical. But it's dangerous speak. It is. I mean, there was no reason to do this, and yet they're doing
it. And it just concerns me that, you know, this is out there because now, and it affects everybody. Anybody who hears this, you know, oh yeah, it's the religious right. And already now, it's the religious right, the religious far right. Which sounds very extremist. Well, the extremist part comes next. Oh, okay. Benny Johnson goes on to say that God establishes the rulers of nations. In the audience right now, there are rulers of our land. This is the part where I know non -believers
lose it. And it's understandable that if you don't believe that God is in control of everything, then I mean, if you haven't just submitted to that, then you won't get it. And it sounds kooky. I can say this as a relatively new believer. I know how people think about this. Flip the script. We've been subjected to the last four years of pure kookiness from the other side, and yet we're supposed to sit there and drink
their poison and be okay with it. But now when the pendulum swings and the momentum's the other way, and we're making declarations just like they did, and they continue to, but just like they did, suddenly... We're extremists. We're violent. We're prone to violence now. That's what they're saying. And what's interesting, did you ever see the juxtaposition of the BLM riots and the Antifa riots juxtaposed to the memorial of Charlie Kirk saying, this is how
we respond. This is how they respond. I mean, you could go down the line on a lot of those. Now, are there going to be occasional guys who are Now, mind you, I believe if there was ever a conspiracy in Adam's mind, what we saw recently with these shootings, the church in the Latter -day Saints Church. I mean, I'm just going to say that it's very easy to make people crazy these days. There's enough pharmaceuticals in people's systems. There's all kinds of platforms
that people get on. This is not an unthinkable thing to get people to do the weirdest possible stuff. veterans are always perceptible to PTSD. I mean, it's all very... Heartbreaking is the term. We'll continue with what they think is crazy. The State Department, the Department of War, the Department of Justice, the Chief Executive, God has instituted them. And what does the Apostle Paul in Romans say about a godly leadership? Rulers wield the sword. for the protection of
good men and for the terror of evil men. May we pray that our rulers here, rightfully instituted and given power by our God, wield the sword for the terror of evil men in our nation. Well, I mean, I don't think anybody summarized the dual martyr narratives better than Benny Johnson in that service, right? That on the one hand, Charlie Kirk could be an innocent Stephen, but then, right, the turn is now the godly government needs
to go after our enemies. And this takes me to something that the Christian nationalism scholar Bradley Onishi mentioned in his recap of Kirk's memorial. He said that some MAGA factions subscribe to a two kingdoms theology. So, wow. So of course, We knew Benny Johnson and I think Jack Brasovic and even Stephen Miller that this was going to cause misunderstandings. I love doing this podcast with you because I pray that people who are not believers listen to it, who may have a different
view of things that they can just hear. how we view this and not how it's presented because yeah, that can sound crazy and kooky and dangerous if you don't know where it's coming from. And also the presentation, you know, it's like, yeah, you got to have that crowd of what, how many thousand eight, 70, 80 ,000. You're a little fired up. You got a little adrenaline flowing into that. Yeah, you get into that. So how about that? So now the two kingdom, have you heard
of two kingdom theology? I want to hear what they're saying because I'm curious about that. Buckle up. They believe there's a kingdom of God. And in that kingdom of God, you are going to see God who operates according to peace and justice and love. But there's also the civil kingdom. When it comes to the political realm, the civic realm, it's really about a friend, enemy distinction. It's either you or them. It's
either dominate or be dominated. And when it comes to the two kingdoms theology, we want a woman who forgives the man that murder her husband. And we want a president who's going to hate him enough to execute him. Let's just stop it right there. Wow, man. He just, this is, this is a scholar. He just ran down the hill on that. You know, it's one thing to take a few steps, but if you ever start running downhill, Have you ever done that as a kid? Yeah, and then it ended
badly, didn't it? It does. You end at the bottom, bruised and broken. Exactly. Covered in dirt. So I feel like that's what he did, you know. And this is what happens about commentary that's going to be negative or you've got an agenda with your commentary. Clearly. You're going to take a few steps. You get some momentum and then you can't stop. And that's what I'm hearing here.
Openly that hate is a way to love God. When we see a political coalition, built around antipathy, aggressive politics, castigating people who disagree with them, fighting with their enemies. When that names itself as Christian and also embraces some of the rhetorical styles and vocabulary of Christianity, it becomes very hard to disentangle those things. And I think Trump has played this dual role for American Christians over the last 10 years. Isn't he just playing on the second
string? No, Donald Trump will sometimes mouth the pieties, especially since the assassination attempt in Butler, Pennsylvania. God saved me so that I could save America. Right. That's a message that a lot of American Christians want to hear. But that's also not about Jesus. Right. And so Trump can present himself as a Christian. but he does not always conform to Christian morality. And the Christians give him a pass because they want to say, well, he's the one God has put in
office. He is there to punish our enemies. So we can say that we love our enemies and celebrate their demise at Donald Trump's hands. Now, I thought this was important because I know many believers, many Christians who are very wary of President Trump say, well, he hasn't declared, he doesn't... declared Jesus. And so he's not real. He's an op. He's not the real deal. And I'm like, wow, this is hurting us, hurting all sides, this particular view of President Trump.
Yeah, agreed. Again, this running downhill thing. I'm hearing this, like, this gathering of men, but then making these leaps. And this is sequential in the broadcast. I mean, I took out some non -seculars, but this is exactly how it went. It's fascinating because they start off with almost something that we could go, yeah, I can kind of see that. But then they make this leap, you know, 80 feet down the hill instead of another
foot. And it's like, so I'm hearing that. But again, if you have an agenda, of course you're going to fabricate a narrative to support what you want to believe or what you already believe. I was listening to Josh McPherson talk to Mark Driscoll on Charlie Kirk's podcast yesterday. I just heard this clip. I didn't listen to the whole thing yet, but I just heard this clip. I like Josh McPherson. Pastor's a big church. He's young, and they're going back and forth.
Josh was reading a book that talked about some... This will come back into what we're talking about, so I want you to hear me out for a sec. So from basically the 50s, 60s into the 90s, the early 90s, there was a season in American history and politics and popular culture where it was okay to talk about your faith. In fact, you couldn't get elected if you didn't declare your faith. Right. And celebrities would often get up at the Grammy, thank God for this. God gave me the
song. Yeah, exactly. I mean, this was popular. And so it was very trendy and popular and okay to declare your faith. And then you had a period through the late 90s, roughly 94 on, and there were some things that precipitated that, where faith became neutral. Became the Netherlands, you know, is this we're not gonna know Switzerland Switzerland. Thank you. My bad Thank you for the correction somebody who lived there and grew
up. So Switzerland, you know, we're not gonna you know We're not gonna go either way and it was still okay to talk about it But it was okay not to talk about it and those in politics didn't have to declare I mean it just there was a shift of ambivalence so then you move into up to 2014 And we see another shift. This shift now goes to, don't you, no, not 2014, up till recently. You don't talk about your faith. In fact, now we are the enemy. It's scary. It's scary for
people. It's become a scary thing to talk about your faith. If you're an actor, celebrity, you're in the Hollywood, you know, the circle, you know, don't you dare talk about your faith. But not even that. Pastor Jimmy, when I came out on Joe Rogan and as I continued to profess my faith in my regular conversation, more and more people who I've known, not personally, but personally through email and feedback on my podcast, now they're coming out and they're saying, hey, I
feel more comfortable. So it's not just celebrities, it's normal everyday people and people who I've known for seven years. Hey, by the way, brother, just if you have any questions about Latter -day Saints, I've been a card carrying member all my life. Didn't even know the guy was a believer at all. Right. You know, this is, this is amazing things that are happening. So it's not just Hollywood. Of course, Hollywood drives it and, you know, media. That's just one mountain I was talking
about. But you can go down in politics, you can go anything. So now we have this, this, you know, Trump gets reelected. in his inaugural speech and you captured that clip beautifully and you played on the Godcaster. We will not forget our country, we will not forget our constitution, and we will not forget our God. And you added a nice echo to that little reverb. That's actually, that's how it was recorded. No way! That was on there? That was literally the way it was.
That's the way I have it recorded, yeah. That's a bit cooler. I mean, that's awesome. So he green -lighted faith. Yes, yes. But now, you know, but it's been a war. I mean, it's People are coming out. But what's happening is we're getting this division. We're getting a chasm between the two worlds. This is really interesting because you say 1994. When was Bill Clinton president? I don't remember. 92 to 2000. Wow, that's making sense. And Bill Clinton, the president... I mean,
we know what he stood for. Right. He made certain sexual acts not sex anymore. Exactly. Also, 1994 is just when the internet started to blast through to homes everywhere, dial -up, we could get on the internet. These two things happen concurrently. Interesting. You got 9 -1 -1, 2001. That's right. You've got George W., who was just elected, and then he's coming out claiming to be a card -carrying Christian. Looking back on things, I'm beginning to think otherwise. So you have these shifts
that happened. There are these seasons and these movements. Well, then you've got JD Vance just a day or two ago on a podcast straight up saying, I will never be quiet about my faith again. I will never shut up about my faith. I will honor my God. I'll honor Jesus and I'll honor my friend Charlie by not being. another level. And you're seeing this, people that are not just motivated, they are inspired. And now we're moving into a new season. Now we know what happens when that
happens. Well, the enemy starts to strike, try to do undermine, do anything he can. NPR, NPR, NPR. Hillary coming out. Hey, let me remind you about these people. The middle management comes out, which who are just middle management. They're nothing, nothing. You know, it's like they're not even the manager of the restaurant, you know. I heard Josh Howerton, he pastors a very large church, Lake Point, 27 ,000 people in Rockwall, Texas, right outside of Dallas. And he was on
with Josh McPherson and several other guys. Oh, I saw this. You sent me this clip. Yeah, it was fantastic. Super good. These guys are amazing young men. They're all pretty young, aren't they? They're sharp. Yeah. 40s. It's next -gen leaders coming up. They all kind of look like you, Pastor Jimmy. They're all buff. You know, they got their muscles out. They do not have gray hair. These guys, they're young. With time, with time. It's
coming, it's coming. I think guys like you and I don't have many, Pastor Darren, Tyler, I mean, you've been a great example for all of these new pastors. I mean, I really love seeing it. I'm seeing pastors now, you know, we got, who's the one in, there's another bridge, the bridge. There's another church in like a little east of Fredericksburg, young pastor, I'm forgetting the name of the town. They also, they have a Godcaster as well. And he's got a beard, you
know, he's like drives his truck. And this is like, I love the, this is, this was when I, the first time in Austin, I went to Austin stone church and Tina and I had just been dating and she was kind of interested. And I remember going there, I was, You know, I was being kind, like, this is a date. OK, so I'd just done my show, so I was tired. And I'm like, OK, everything sounds like you two. And the guys are wearing dockers. I'm like, you know. The worship team,
a .k .a. The band. Yeah. But they were, you know, wearing docker pants and, you know, the button down shirt. And it's it's different now. And I think, you know, pastors like you really brought up a whole new generation, which I'm just super excited to see. Appreciate that. There seems to be a generation now that are much more real down to earth. Relatable. They're relatable. They're not polished and typical briefcase short hair and dockers, just like you said. I had my
fair share of dockers back in the day. I'm sure you did. I'm sure you did. I'm not real proud of that, but that was the early days. Nothing against dockers. When you're young, you're trying to fit in, right? No, I never wore dockers. I was never a dockers kind of guy, but still not. But I love what's happening with this next generation. These guys are talking about what's happening in the culture. And they're doing some great deconstruction of some of these clips you just
played, especially the one with Hillary. But they're bringing something fresh to the table. And they're saying, just like JD Van, we will not apologize for who we are. And this is catching a lot of traction right now. But it's not because we're trying to beat somebody. Right. There's only one enemy that's truly an enemy. And I just got totally roasted on social media. I mean, my my thing went, you know, you now have forty
four thousand views. Well, that's all evil, mean people sending it to each other and bots and then. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Some ugly stuff. But. But there's a sense where there's no longer a fear of this, because the enemy isn't a person. And the reason I got castigated is because I used the word enemy, the enemy. So people who don't know anything about Christianity, they thought I was talking about the left. They thought I was talking about people. Which is probably what
most people would think. Here's my thank you to 44 ,000 people who slice and dice me on social media. is, oh, I need to clarify my terms a little bit. Yes. If we're going to send this stuff out to the worldwide web, I need to clarify terms a little bit. Wow, you just dated yourself by saying worldwide web, brother. That's like, hello, 1995, want this term back. It's like saying the YouTube. The YouTube. Well, this is a good point, because it does, I mean, even as a newbie, you're
like, the enemy, the enemy. It took me not long, obviously, but it took me a little bit. It's like, OK, who is the enemy? What is the enemy? Yeah. It is a clarification in terms. It really is. Lucifer. So I'm going to be more clear about that. Not because I don't want to be slice and dice in media. It's going to happen anyway because of where I stand. But if I'm going to be slice and dice, I want it to be with clarity. I wasn't talking about people. I wasn't talking about
a political movement. I was talking about the very real enemy of our souls, the devil. Do you ever feel like when you post on Instagram, Facebook, that's the main thing. Do you think it really makes a difference? Is it just reaffirming people who already believe? Do you think you win any souls? Does the discipleship online really work? I think it builds up those who are already in your persuasion. The algos are going to make
sure that happens, right? It's going to land unless you boost, which that's kind of bypasses some things because you pay for it. You pay for it. You pay to get out into other arenas outside the algo. And my daughter who runs our media, she'll boost our reels. they'll end up in places they normally wouldn't. That's where we get the, you're a pig. You're going to hell. I hope you burn in hell. I'll never go to church. You're the reason I won't go to church. There's one
thing we know. We know you're not going to hell. I'm pretty cool on that. Yeah, I'm all good there. Here's what's fun about getting that kind of stuff. You've talked about this too, is it gives me a name to pray for. Oh yeah, a lot of them. This guy, because it's all their names, especially on Facebook, you just see who they are. All right, Mr. Rodriguez, I'm going to pray for you. All right, Mr. Schnell, I'm going to pray for you. Thank you. Now, have a target. Just pray for
me. early on to reply saying, I'm going to pray for you. Big mistake. You might as well just throw gasoline on the fire. Like, I'm going to pray for you, man. That will come back a million times like, oh, I prayed for you. You know, you can even, I'm doing the voice just because I can hear it in text. So we don't have any people enemies. And this is the thing about, we're not trying to create a theocracy where it's us and
them. That's the mistake. But I can see if you heard Benny Johnson's speech or pro -Civic, either of those guys, they were like - Or Stephen Miller. Or Stephen Miller, like, we're ready to go. I was like, whoa, whoa, damn boy. But you're always going to have that on all sides. You're going to have your guys who are ready to go fight. But it's just rhetoric. I'm sad. That's not the stuff I wanted to hear in the memorial. I want to hear, hey, let's get back to Charlie. Well,
there was six hours of other stuff. Yeah, of wonderful, amazing, God -honoring, Charlie -honoring, young life, well -lived. But of course, people or critics are going to jump on the stuff, and it's okay. To me, it just is part and parcel of what we do here. But it's sad that it's become such a us versus them. My heart, I don't have enemies. I just don't. I have one. But the people that sit on another side of the aisle, they are not my enemies. And when they try to make it
personal, I just don't let it be personal. So what can we give believers who want what advice, what tips and tricks? who want to speak boldly about their faith, who don't want to be unashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And they're going to be doing this within the realm of people who are here. This is their media diet. This is what they're hearing. Should we just shut up? Or can we say things? How do we approach it? Any thoughts? It's like I'm interviewing you. What's going
on here? This is actually me with real questions. This is actual questions that I have. Let me start with just a scripture here, and it comes out of Proverbs 15 .1, and it's really simple. It says, a soft word turns away wrath. And I've learned because, you know, when I start getting all that stuff, my first response is, Oh, well, where's my keyboard? Even you, even you. Oh man, it's a human thing, right? Because it hurts. If it doesn't hurt, I don't ever want to get
to where things don't hurt anymore. I don't want to get that hard. I don't want my skin to get that thick. It's kind of like the guy saying, I don't have any friends in the church. I'm like, dude, you don't have a church. I don't know what you have. You get some people meeting, but it's not the Church of Jesus Christ. It's not the faith community, a spiritual family, but I apply that thing to anything. I don't ever want to get that hard where it just rolls off my back.
That's when you cease to feel. When you cease to feel, you cease to miss the human condition. There are reasons why people are angry. Let's get a little deeper. Let's go a little behind the veil and go, okay, what's creating that response? Why is that person so, why does he suddenly declare, I'm going to hell. I'm the reason they'll never go back to church. And, you know, you're a pig, you know, just crazy stuff. What's behind that? Frustration, fear, pain, you know, trauma. I
mean, you go down a list. And no way to deal with it. No way to deal with it the way I certainly, you know, I... talk to God, I talk to Jesus, I give it to God, like, got to give you this God, I just got to get this off my chest. So if you're hurting, crushed, mad, and then you see some guy standing in a pulpit with a microphone and he's joyful, confident, standing and believing,
you know, it made it just sounds arrogant. It sounds like, I remember when I was at a really down place and I had friends that were doing great and there was a part of me Even as a Christian, I was like, man, I just wish they wouldn't tell me how great they're doing so much. I'd kill it. You know what I mean? The human side of you just goes, man, well then what's wrong with me? So there's so many human dynamics that play into this. Besides spiritual, there's that. Born into
a world of war, John Eldridge. Besides all that, there's the human condition of people are hurting and they're looking for things to hang it on. Where's a hook? Oh, you're a hook, Adam Curry, because you call yourself a Jesus freak. Well, let me tell you about those Zionist masochists. They're taking over the world. Here's a hook. It's so true. People just jump to these things, and they're looking for people to be mad at. They're looking for a face. And we're putting
ours out there, right? We're putting our voice out there. Putting our face out there. I'm okay with it. Hang in on me. I'm okay. You're right. As long as I got your name. I can do something for you. So there we go. So you asked a really good question. What can people do, you know, to come out of the closet, so to speak, to come out of the darkness into the light. First of
all, don't go out looking for fights. I think what's happened is so many people I know, and I'm not going to name any organizations that I'm clearly good friends with and what, but, but there is a sense where I see some friends of mine going on social media, posting their victories. Here we were at the school board meeting down here and so on this place place boy We showed them and we won and and I'm like guys Is that
the point to win? What does winning mean? Yeah, if we don't win a human heart, have we really won anything? You know, maybe we move the needle on Getting some books out of school and that's not a bad. I'm not disparaging that but that's not the win the win is shifting culture, shifting hearts, to embrace not only Jesus, but the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self -control. Patience and self -control are the big ones for
me. All of those. All of those. All of the above. Those nine fruit of the Spirit. So I think what's tempting to do when you're ready to come out, you want to come out big. We tend to like to grandstand things. And then we post it. We slash it. Yeah, we throw it on IG. Whatever. Here's my victory. And I've been watching this, and you're helping me do this, whether you intend to or not. Just the more we talk about it, I'm
backing away from it. I'm stepping back. And Eddie even made a comment like, wow, you didn't even post anything about our retreat online. I go, why should I? Whose business is it? We had a great retreat. It was amazing. But you know, why would I feel the need to throw that out there? To float it? I personally believe that's all prideful. It's all pridefulness. It can be. Because what are you doing it for? What are you actually doing? I mean, is it to confirm
to the staff who see that? You confirm that. They'll know. You have another staff meeting this week. Everyone will agree. I wrote a DG about them. how much I love them and appreciate and value, but having to like take a bunch of pictures, make sure I get photo ops with all my friends. It's all idolatry, brother. That's the way I see it. You're messing me up in a good way because I'm beginning to look beyond just
the initial photo of why. So when it comes to coming out, I don't think social media is the platform. I got to tell you a story which just came to mind. In the very, very early days of weblogs, this is the precursor to social media and news feeds, blogs. It was even before they were called blogs. And I was one of the early adopters. We're talking 2002, 2003. And I was living, I think I was living in Belgium at the time. And I might have even had a reality show.
So it was kind of a part of, you know, I'm going to post stuff about what I'm doing. And there were two bosses at the television radio company that I'd really got my first start at, at Veronica Television and Radio. And my good friend Lex, who just turned 80, went to his birthday. And the other guy was a guy named Rob, Rob Out, funny enough. And he passed away. And he sent me, I think we had text at the time, he sent me a text message, hey, Rob Out just passed away. And I
went ahead and put it on my blog. But that wasn't the family's wish. And I remember him calling me up and said, I don't understand this necessity to put your life and everything. He was mad. Put your life and everything out there on the internet. What's the point? Wow. And that just came to mind because I remember thinking, yeah, what was the point? That was me being breaking news. It was all. All ego at that point. And that has stuck with me for so long. And of course,
now the medium is the message. The whole point is look at me. Look at how awesome my life is. It seems like it's not a God thing. Brother, my heart's there with you. And man, that had to be painful when you got the reality that... Particularly from him. Because you care about these people. And also, he was like my dad. He was in a way a surrogate father for me. He was scolding me correctly. And I was like, I'm a grown man. What am I doing? What was that about?
So there you go. When we talk about... having your voice heard or being vocal, starting to come get back in the public square. The question is, why are you doing it? Are you doing it because everybody else is doing it? Because you think about it, we get caught up in waves. We get caught up in movements. We get caught up in trends.
And am I doing, is this just another TikTok dance video of, you know, you know, middle America wife, you know, doing her little dance, you know, to a Chico, you know, Chico outfit, you know? I mean, it just, it's like, Or am I coming out, not on social media, but showing up to a school board meeting? It's one thing to just come on and give your opinion about everything. It's way different to actually show up at a school
board meeting, not looking for a fight. But how about lacing the atmosphere with the Word of God and prayer? I'm not saying out loud, make yourself look weird. You can pray with your eyes open. You don't have to look weird when you're praying. where you're actually inviting and invoking the presence of God into that space. And it works. It really works. And doing really something crazy like going up and introducing yourself to school board members as an ally instead of an adversary.
And I think some of the things that I'm seeing of people I love and care about is that they're adversarial from the get -go. Now mind you they're getting training all day long online the training is there every single day the training to be adversarial to be prideful to be Make sure you post your pictures of your victory Yeah, and and I get it because when we win we want other people to cheer and we want we're excited about it By the way, I stumble over this all the time
myself. I'm not like mr. Perfect over here far from it. I get it. I get it I've had opportunities to get pictures with famous people, and I don't. I just don't. I've just stopped it. This is the worst, and I'm susceptible to it as well. Celebrity dies. Look, here's me with that dead celebrity in 1987. Why am I doing this? It's crazy. I think there's points where you're like, I really want to eulogize this guy. And there's a good side
to that. So I don't want to just sound like I'm just throwing buckets of cold water on everybody. But I think we need to think about these things. So your question was, how do we come out? And I just think that's not the way. I've seen that work go badly for friends of mine who came out too quickly with a victory and it turned on them. because they posted it on public online. I can name names, but I want to protect my friends. And the guilty. And both, yes. So anyway, come
out by showing up. There you go. Come out by attending. a meeting, a school board meeting. Go to a city council meeting. Go to the chamber of commerce meetings, all kinds of stuff. County commissioner meetings are fascinating, actually. Those are interesting. Those are very interesting. There's a lot of stuff happening there. Yeah. I mean, but people don't even think about it. You know, there's library committees. There's
all kinds of things that you can do. I think the thing I would try to resist is getting in a gaggle of people, like on a text chain and just constantly revving each other up. About the conspiracies that we just read, that awesome scripture. This is a big deal. It is. A lot of that, a lot of that. I just go silent. I'm on a few, even with just a few people and I just go silent and I just let it pass. I don't jump
in. It takes people down and what it does, it gives, like we were listening to those, was it NPR? NPR, yeah. Listening to them and what we do is we give them ammo with this rhetoric. With this dark combative river rhetoric. Yeah You know the most classy athletes ever played sports with were the quiet ones. Mm -hmm. He would just show up No flash no victory dance, but they'd kick your butt on the ball field Yeah, and then they'd come over and help you up and it's all
any gun. I remember the name It's always the people who speak quietly. Yes infrequently who get the most attention to what they're saying. Yes Yes. And I think we should leave it there. We ended up back at social media. You notice this seems to be a common theme. Because we see the danger. We see the temptation, the danger, and the nonsensical nature of it. It just doesn't necessarily help. It reveals our flesh. It reveals
where we're weak, not where we're strong. And where we're strong is we're supposed to bless our enemies. We're not supposed to curse them. We're supposed to bless them. That isn't popular right now. That would not go over well in some of my circles. It's right there in the book. It's right there in the book. Let's bring out the book. This is a conversation you and I would have had in a restaurant at your house, at my house. I want everyone to know that we enjoy
this. I hope you enjoyed listening to it. We enjoy it even more because we're uninterrupted. There's an on -air light outside your door, which people seem to respect. We didn't get set at opposite ends of the table. Exactly. In a big group. Brother, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Love you too, brother. We will be back hopefully next week. We get to do this, everybody.