¶ Empowering Women in Business
Hello and welcome to the we Are Power podcast Northern Power Women podcast for your career and your life , no matter what business you're in .
Hello , welcome to the we Are Power podcast , the podcast where we are talking to different role models every single week , getting some of that top tips , advice , guidance , life hacks , whatever it may be , but things that will help you in your career , your life , whatever adventure you are on .
And this series we are speaking to some of our fantastic trophy holders , winners , commended , and finding out what has happened since that wonderful night back in Manchester in March this year .
And I'm delighted this week to be speaking to the wonderful Jane Little , who's founder and CEO multiple award-winning , by the way , diversity and inclusion training company Skills4 , and was our 2024 Agent of Change winner at this year's awards , Jane welcome to the podcast .
Brilliant Thanks , Simone . It's great to be part of the celebration and when you .
We did like a little winner's podcast in the days following and I asked everybody what the three words were , and you were giddy , grateful to be recognised , buzzing and energised . I'm also noting that these are more than three words , but that's okay . We were building this . I'm feeling really optimistic about the future . How are you feeling ?
now . Oh , I'm feeling fantastic , Simone , and it's great to see that . You know , Northern Power is keeping the momentum going , keeping the conversation going , and it's just great to see all the positive change that's going on around me and you as I said , were our 2024 Agent of Change .
What did the award mean to you ?
Simone . It meant so much to me because I have had such a lot of change in my life and I left school with four GCSEs and not very good ones . I went traveling for a bit because the thought of a job terrified me . I then worked for an airline for 10 years as cabin crew and then I got married , I got pregnant and I took a career break .
Then I lost the pregnancy , my marriage broke down and I didn't have a job . So people say , oh , you're really brave starting your own business . And actually I'm not . I had no other options . But then I got involved in learning and development . I went back and got a better education . I went to Leeds University . So the change in my life has been phenomenal .
The change that we create in other women's lives is just beautiful to see . So to win Agent of Change to me was really an emotional night . It was great .
And I know the judges were really impressed at the fact that you have helped over 10,000 women through your work . How have you done that ? What do you think are your sort of your , what are your hacks , if you like , or your keys to sort of making that impact ?
Yeah , I , think for me , the impact is because I make sure I've got a great product and I've got a great team , so you can't scale . As you all know , when I look at your micro team , what you guys achieve is phenomenal . So it's having the right team around you having a great product's having the right team around you havinga great product .
So I'm a real stickler for continuous improvement and my hack really and I know a lot of people do not do this but I delegate everything I can , so I focus on vision , relationships and content . Everything else I delegate out to my team and that's how I've managed to have the reach that I have .
Wow , that's amazing . That's so simple , Because I think you're right . I think why do you think we procrastinate ?
about delegation . I don't know . I think sometimes the most common answer I hear is it's quicker if I do it myself . It's quicker if I do it myself , and I always think , yeah , but you know that that's a short term fix .
So when I work with women on delegating I say right , the best tip I can give you about delegating is don't put a lot of work and effort into it . Decide who the best person is to delegate to Tell them what you want them to achieve and then make their first task that they feed back to you , preferably on an email .
So it's there and it's black and white what's meant to be achieved , what the timeframes are and what the outputs are . And then that doesn't take you any time but you're empowering that person to put in the time , check their understanding and come back to you .
So you know that would be the one change I would say people should make delegate the task but then make it the other person's job to feed back to you their understanding I know we've talked about the , the , why you set your business up .
Almost you didn't have a choice . You were going through some awful , had gone through some awful life-changing things in your world . But why ? Why skills ? For what was that vision ? Uh , because you've , I say , you had this masses of experience and different experience . But why , why did you go down this sort of diversity , inclusion , skills , people training route ?
yeah , well , I've always been really passionate about people and equality and justice . But it's really interesting that when everything went wrong , when everything fell to pieces around me , it was a colleague of mine , a friend of mine , who gave me a choice and said look , we've got a project called Women and Work . It's not doing very well .
Will you come in and quality assure it ? So I went in to look at it and I said immediately I said right , there's no tools . Women are being inspired and motivated but there's nothing they can pick up and do after they've been spoken to . So I'll write some tools and off we went and it went off and the program's gone from strength to strength .
But for me , the real thing there is when I had nowhere to turn , it was somebody in my network that put out a hand for me and that's a message that I really want to pay forward . So that's what inspires me . I work with so many brilliant women who just need to work on their network and visibility to achieve great things .
Because there's a phrase in the Northeast and it always makes me laugh . It says shy burns , get out . You know so , if you don't ask , you don't get . But the other part of that is , if you haven't got a network , you've got nobody to ask .
So you know , it's those simple tools that I see women achieve great things , and I suppose the vision has been to help women progress their careers to the same extent as men . And it's still that today .
And I know there's the phrase , isn't it ? Your net worth is your network . But I love this . I'm going to shout out to one of our brilliant , uh , northeast ambassadors , adele , who that was one of . Remember she approached me many years ago and said I want to support , I want to help .
You know , you talk about that , give back that reaching out hand , and , and that was hers . That was the first time I'd ever heard or come across the shy burns . Get now . I love that phrase , but it literally does what it says on the tin , doesn't it ?
Yeah , and , and we've talked um sort of separately around wider advocacy , um , and you know , and we've even just before our chat today , you know talking about that .
You know it's not a , it's not a , it's not like pie , is it where you cut it up and you think , right , if we get the guys involved , it means there's less , less kind of involvement for for women , you know , but I know you are massively passionate about gender balance , particularly across the STEM or STEAM sectors .
Why has that mission become so important to you ? Because you were clearly someone who was driven by that mission of making impact .
I was , and I was just thinking as well when I was looking at thinking back to the night and there were so many great , great , fantastic memories of that awards night . But for me , one of the key things was looking up at the advocacy list . At a stage full of men all wanting to be part of this journey and to join in was just wonderful .
And I think , simone , I've been on the receiving end and I still feel it so in in 2010 and I went into a meeting and I was the only woman in the room . I took my jacket off and hung it on the back of the chair and one guy said to me keep going , love . And I was like , are you kidding me ?
But what was really painful was nobody else stood in and checked them . You know , I still hear occasional stories like that because I work in a hard sector , but men want to come along and they want to support and I think it's right that we say , yeah , we all win here . Like you say , simone , it's not a piece of the pie .
You say , simone , it's not a piece of the pie . Um , you know , particularly in STEM , we've got a huge skill shortage and yet women only make up 30% of the workforce . So it's not , you know , work having for your jobs . It's if we improve gender balance , we increase innovation , we improve financial performance , we compete , compete on a global level .
So we all win , win . And I just do think you know , I know that was in 2010 and things have come along a great , you know a huge amount which is really positive , and the way we're going to do that is all working together and that's why I care about advocacy and that's why I love to see in the advocacy list launched last year .
Oh , and it was a powerful piece , wasn't it ? But there's also an element of one of . We have great WhatsApp groups , as many of us do listening to this , and the advocacy group is always really interesting .
It's a different conversation , but I gathered a gang the other week and I was like here's the irony of almost creating a man's club , if you like , but we've always talked . This is really important . It's the good guys , isn't it
¶ Navigating Bias and Advocacy in Business
? And I think that you know I know you said that that comment keep going was like it's ludicrous , to be honest , and you have to . Yeah , I think sometimes the only way you can think of it .
That's just ridiculous in this age , but I'm hearing so many things that are still happening out there and you literally do want that moment where you just get a card out that just goes it's 2024 .
You know it's ridiculous , but what would you say to anyone out there listening who is kind of navigating their career in you know , whether it be a STEM or STEAM field , or whether it be you know another highly male dominated sector that you know maybe comes across a challenging remark , like you received , or something else ?
Any top tips there , jane , to kind of navigate ?
that I do . I do think because we we've done a lot of research . So we always ask the women who've been through our program . You know we're giving you tools personally , but in terms of your organization , what do you think that the organizational barriers are ?
And sadly , it is still that the top two answers are there's bias and microaggressions and they need addressing . And then there's another piece around transparency of progression process .
So you know , if I already feel like a minority , I haven't really got the confidence to go there and have a career conversation when everybody's busy and it's not really my place , and have a career conversation when everybody's busy and it's not really my place .
But if we come back to the bias or the microaggression points , when you hear something's not quite right , whether you're the woman on the receiving end or whether you're a potential ally in the room I always think the best way is to just ask a question , because that's normally enough for people to step back .
So you know , if you can say what do you mean by that ? That is absolutely enough for people to go . Oh right , yeah , and have a little mumble under their breath about an appropriate apology . But also , don't beat yourself up , because in that moment . I didn't say that . I just , you know , sat down quietly and got on with the meeting .
But I could have gone back afterwards and said what did you mean by that ?
the doors never shut and I think that I talk about that . We talk about the good guys and we collect the good guys . When that comment was made to you or you know , other people are probably listening now going yeah , that happened to me last week , the fact that no one said anything .
One of the conversations we had with our advocates the last week was you know , actually what we want to be doing is to be saying and , um , you know , sort of calling out behaviors or comments when women aren't in the room , um , and I think that's kind of one of the the big things is , don't just do it as a , you know , actually do do , of course , but
don't make sure you're doing it when , when there isn't a woman in the room , I think how do we ? How do we kind of um , top tips again , it's all about the top tips today , but top tips for being that , you know , to creating those better allies and advocates .
Well , I think , um , obviously , since somebody who runs a training company , I'm going to say training is the best way forward because people have recognized for a long time for women to really excel in their careers they need the tools and the confidence to do that .
And you know , whilst men can wake up full of , you know , moral support , they need the tools to know how to do it , but they also need the confidence , because sometimes I find men are a bit hesitant , thinking hang on , is it right for me to step in here ? So I would say , you know , look at that .
But the other thing is , apart from training and tools , there's that beautiful piece , simone , you know , the 20-60-20 piece . So 20% of people are never going to get on board with the change . They just know this is all ridiculous feminists gone mad . 20% of people are going to be really proactive and they want to drive that change and make the change .
But the large pool in the middle , 60% , are looking at what's happening and deciding how to move . So for me , I think things like the Northern Power Advocacy List being launched last year , where 50 men stand up proudly and say I'm on board with this journey , means others will follow .
Absolutely , and I think that's the that's the aim really is is creating that multiplier effect , because what you want the 60 in the middle as I'm looking at it , I'm a piece of paper now but that 60 , you want , you want to make sure they're going that way , not that way . Right , you know that's that's the key .
You , um , you know is to to do that and go actually come this side , don't , don't worry , like you know , it is that toolkit , isn't it to ?
to help , help , help our advocates , not be afraid yeah , it's almost like you know , transferring all of the great learning we've done with supporting women and making that available to men too , because do you remember a few years ago there was that huge campaign . If I can see , see it , I can be it . It's the same for men .
When we've got great male allies , that's 60% follow .
Absolutely 100% . In fact , if anyone's seen my LinkedIn recently , they'll see .
I met the King a few weeks ago and I gave him a Northern Power Women badge and he said to me I don't think I qualify and I said , your Majesty , of course you do , because actually look me , I don't think I qualify and I said your majesty of course you do , because actually look at the female businesses in this , in this room , as a celebration for the
King's Awards for enterprise and and and it's important , it's you know we can , we can , we need the good guys , we need the good guys to help that . That , that that sort of you can't see it . You have to see it to be it kind of thing . So I totally agree with that . And how do we make this sector more inclusive in the future ?
What are the steps or the leaps that we need to get there ?
Yeah , I think so many organizations well , so many organizations in this sector are doing great things , but they tend to be the larger organizations because they have more resource . So it will take time to filter to SMEs . But it's understanding that it's not one magic bullet . So we need training for women , we need women's employee network groups .
We need great things , like you know , award ceremonies , recognizing talent . So it's all of the things that we can do , and certainly with Skills4 , we help individuals progress their careers and we're very successful at that . But the organizations can do little tiny tweaks to looking internally and two easy changes .
I know some will be doing it , but when we look at performance reviews within organizations , there are two easy tweaks you can make there . If you put in a performance indicator for leaders around inclusion , suddenly they're going to start doing it , and we already know that women sometimes aren't as forthcoming as men in starting a career conversation .
Where's my next progression ? What do I have to do to get forward ? How can I get charted more quickly ? Then that should be in their PDR . Okay , we are now going to have a career conversation . So you know it doesn't have to take a lot of time or take a lot of money it's really thinking about .
Where can we embed this throughout the sector that is going to make that change quicker ?
Love that , love those top tips and in this our winners are commended season . We are asking every one of our guests to pose a question for the next guest . Okay , so Jill from Square One Law , who were the winners of the SME business this year .
She has asked a question and it's interesting because it's like she knew , because I feel like we've already sort of covered it but what point in your life have you had to be fearless and how did that feel ? And she came up with that question because she runs a podcast around being fearless .
So I do feel we've already tracked on this , haven't we , jade Well , it really is interesting , because one thing I find fascinating about women is , as I've said to you , I just had a storm in a teacup , an awful set of events that left me with . Actually , I had nothing to lose , lose , so I wasn't really fearless , I just got on with it .
Um , but for me , what I find with me and other women is we're brilliant at being fearless when it's for somebody else . If you've got to step in for your kids or your friend or a colleague , suddenly we have all of this courage and we can step in and be a lion , but we don't really do it for ourselves . So , um , yeah , I'm just trying to think .
Normally , when I'm fearless , it's because I'm advocating for somebody else and I know that my knees are going to knock , I know that I'm probably going to get flushed in the neck , so those are all the physical symptoms I get . But , um , it's , it's when you know you're in the right , you push forward anyway . You just find your moral courage . So .
But you know , my're in the right , you push forward anyway . You just find your moral courage . So . But you know , my message is everybody listening to this podcast is going to think , yeah , I'm probably a bit more fearless when I'm standing up for others and can we start doing it for ourselves ?
I love that , I really love that , and I look forward to . We'll be passing your question , jane , on which I'll get after the episode , on to our next guest as well but , um , what would you say ? We've talked about advocacy . We've talked about if you can't see it , you can't be it .
But for those , you've talked about your um moment of the awards and you know what it's meant to you and all everything around that , and but it's , you know , it's the largest event celebrating gender equality . People might think there's no point . I'm not going to win um . You know what we're going to gain out of it .
I can't afford to go or haven't got the time , all of those things , because we're not advocating for ourselves , right ? But what would you think about ? What would you ? For those thinking about nominating um , but Archer , what would you say ? Why should they do it ?
oh my goodness , they should absolutely do it , because we're all aware of the great work you do and the noise you make and the celebration you have . And this is about chucking your hat in the ring and being part of it . And sometimes , you know , I find women will say , well , I'm not going to win or I can't afford to go .
And I say , well , you're a bit ahead of yourself there , let's get the , get the application in and see what comes your way . So just put your application in .
And if we go back to you know that thing about visibility in relationships , and that's the bit that's missing for women , entering the awards is such an important part of building your relationship and your network Because you know you become visible to other people in your sector , to the judges .
You can reach out to last year's winners and ask how they put their nomination together , any top tips . So , in terms of visibility , you know it's fantastic and if you're passionate about gender balance and gender diversity , you really want to get on board and be part of that noise . And I know , simone , you've opened the nominations early this year .
They're open now . So I would say , just it doesn't take long , fill it , ininate and and see if you're lucky enough to get short shortlisted and it's interesting what you talk about advocating for others .
The response that we get from people when they go is sure , this is meant for me , you know . Are you sure that you know ?
And then we have to we do have to do a little bit of corralling , uh , often to say come on , you know , this is someone has really taken the time to think about you , whether whether it be fingers to their keyboard or doing an audio nomination , because we try to make it as inclusive as we can . So thank you for that . And finally , where is your trophy ?
My trophy's in the office . Yeah , I've put it in the office . I thought about keeping it at home because you know you said you've won lots of awards . Skills 4 and the programs I write win loads of awards and this was the first one . That was like for Jane Little . So I thought about bringing it home .
But I got a bit of peer pressure from the team going oh it's such a beautiful trophy , jane , we'll keep it in the office . So it's sitting in the office where everybody can enjoy it .
Maybe one weekend , just sneak it home and have it there , have it there on the side and go . That's me . That's me . I'm agent of change . Jane , thank you so much for joining . I love these chats , post awards . I love to know what people are doing .
I love to know and I think it's great for our listeners as well to hear what people's story is , what people's adventure is , and things aren't as you've highlighted . Things aren't always sort of linear and straightforward , are they ? So thank you so much for joining me . Thank you , simone . An absolute pleasure . Take care .
Thank all of you for listening and please do stay connected on all of our socials TikTok , insta and Twitter . We are Power underscore net , facebook and LinkedIn . We are Power . We love to hear from you . We love your comments . Please leave us a review and do not forget to nominate . It makes a massive difference . Um , thank you for listening .
This is the we are power podcast and what goes on media production .