¶ AI's Impact on Gender Equality
The Northern Power Women podcast . For your career and your life , no matter what business you're in . Hello , hello , my name is Simone and you are very welcome at this very , very special edition of the Northern Power Women podcast . Well , we are recording on our sixth anniversary of the podcast . Woo , oh , yeah , we've got a live audience .
Six years ago , we decided to create a podcast and I thought it was a really clever idea that we record it live . What could go wrong ? Anyway , since then , we've had over 100,000 downloads . Goodness knows how many ever episodes that we've had , but we love it .
I have the best opportunity in the world every week when I talk to amazing people , amazing stories , debating some of the great topics of our time , and also some of the nonsense as well , as it goes along . But you are very welcome . I'm at EY HQ tonight where we're hosting our celebration event .
We welcome so many of our great partners , we've got lots of our mentors and mentees in the room , our future list , our alumni , our power list , our shortlist , and everyone is really welcome .
And obviously , as you would expect , I am surrounded by an amazing panel , because this is our path to power season And this is all about sort of looking at people's sort of different ways , different things that they have to navigate , and we're always about in these podcasts , highlighting sort of great conversations and talking to some of these brilliant change makers
and trailblazers . This week is a special one , as I said , and I'm delighted now to welcome Laura , Georgina and Hannah to the podcast And welcome , welcome , welcome to our fantastic panelists , who I'm just going to hand over to for a quick introduction . Laura , welcome .
Thank you so much for having me . So my name is Laura Smethurst . I'm a managing director and CIO for specialist assistance for Barclays in the UK .
Hi , i'm Georgina Knockton . I'm a partner in EY , in our people consulting business , and I'm based in Leeds .
I'm loving all the wooing . I'm loving the wooing . Keep it coming .
Hannah , i'm Hannah Eves . I am a director for operational resiliency at BNY Mellon , based here in Manchester .
This is a special edition , so we're going to be talking about some different topics this evening And I'm going to kick off with something . We know very well that during the pandemic that women were affected more adversely by the men , and it seems that you know there's now an even greater threat .
Not the men , because we actually love men , because Northern Power Women is always all genders . That's always really important And so many of our Northern Power men in the room this evening . There's been lots and lots of discussion about AI and what the impact that AI will have on the workforce in general , but particularly on women and work .
What concerns do you have about the impact of AI on gender equality And how can we mitigate that ? Laura , i've given you a two-parter . You have given me a two-parter .
It is because I often forget one part when I'm answering the first part . So what I think , what worries me about AI is that we yet don't know too much about it , so it's accelerated beyond even the people that are creating its wildest dreams . And I know we've all watched the sci-fi movies and you go , yeah , that can't happen .
And then suddenly , in the space of six months , everyone goes , oh yeah , we think that actually can happen . So obviously that's concerning , but I think as we learn more , we will uncover more positives than we will uncover negatives .
I think , in terms of the steps that we need to do to make sure that women aren't negatively impacted and we were just chatting about this before it's the start We know that there's a risk and a potential problem here , so let's address it head on . Now .
It's early enough to make a difference , to change , and we should think about the ethics and the governance . We've got to start by laying that out from the front and making sure that we don't walk into something blindsided would be my observation .
Ok , You did . Well . That's a double handle . And I didn't forget , you did not . Well , georgina , would you come up with this , because I always think it's great when we have a multiple panel as well , because you have that green room experience before , and I almost have to hold my hand up and go no , no , no , don't talk about it now .
Don't talk about it now , because that's such a great point , georgina what is this ?
Where do you come up from this ? Yeah , so I think it's complex , as you've said , and I think there is a real , there's already inherent bias in what we have on the internet day to day already gender bias . You look at Wikipedia and data sources and they're actually very mal-dominated And I don't even think we all know that .
And so when you look at AI actually , and certainly generative AI like chat , gpt , actually that is just scraping a lot of that already biased data and perpetuating the problem . So I think , actually really understanding , you wouldn't buy food and not necessarily know the ingredients , so why would you take information not know where the sources come from ?
I think for me that's a real concern because I don't think we know enough , as you've said , to understand the problem and what kind of regulation and stuff to put around it . And also tech is moving so fast beyond even society and as quickly as regulation can keep up . But then on the flip side , there's some incredibly positive things coming .
So I look at the AI that's in breast cancer screening and we're improving cancer screening of breast cancer by 13% . So then you kind of look at the opportunities and you think that's incredible . So I think for me and I'll do like a little mini plug here for EY as well because it does start at grassroots in terms of we are aware now .
So having this awareness that there is a problem is great , like we know the problem , but actually from the grassroots level , teaching and accelerating girls in this space is really important . So EY launched a STEM app which is aimed at 13 to 17 year old girls And that is to try and teach them through games about science , technology , engineering and maths .
So I think accelerating the pace that the younger generation and kind of current women can learn about this stuff is really important .
And you can never educate too early , can you ? You can never . The stereotypes are formed at what age ? of five , six and seven . That's where those gender stereotypes are formed . But do you think ? Are there any specific sectors , hannah ? where do you come out from this ? We talked about tech already . So much talk about tech and digital .
Every role somewhere down the line has got a digital aspect to it . But do you think there is a worry out there and we always try to be positive about what we can do but is there a worry out there that jobs traditionally done by women will become obsolete ?
I think for me I kind of flip that , because I think the worry there for me is there's not enough engineers to build the AI , to get rid of the bias , so we're perpetuating a situation that's already negative for females because there's not enough females building the AI , so there's not enough people kind of asking at the source should I be putting that in there
? Is that a bit bias ? Would you say that to a man ? I think that for me is the threat . If you've not got enough female representation at the very outset , you're never going to get it then at the output from the product .
And how do we ? you know , this is our path to power season , right ? So how do we ensure that everyone has equal access to that pathway ?
So I think the beauty of AI , the beauty of technology , is that it's quite a flexible role And for many women , for many different reasons , flexibility is core to us being able and to be kind of empowered to do the role . We might need to go and drop off at school , as I did this morning .
We might need to finish early because we've got to go and care for an elderly parent . That flexibility is in engineering . We just need to unlock the opportunity . It's not about ability , it's not about who is there first . It's not about whether you're a millennial , gen Z female , male .
If you've got the opportunity and the ability , then you should be there and we should be front and centre . But the flexibility , i think , is the key to this and the landscape of it . But we don't advertise it .
And would you come out with this , Laura , Because I know when we've spoken you were , it's Barclays Technology and there's often like don't talk to me about a mortgage , because we've got a plethora of different roles out there , right ?
Yeah , absolutely , I've always worked in technology And , aside from that one moment , I don't even think I gave it really any thought . I just work in technology .
And so I think doing more of these things , having more conversations with people at the start of their career and maybe even further back where they're making the choices , to help them bust some of those myths I know that's one of your sayings , Simone but busting those myths so that they would break those perceptions . you know , yeah , I work in technology .
Hi , you know , I think I look pretty normal and I might not be what you would expect . So if I can do that , why can't anyone do it ?
¶ Promoting Diversity in STEM
And , interestingly , we met a lady , one of the PowerUp mentors , and we were chatting about her . she was in data science . I was like , well , that's a lot more techie than where I work in technology . you know , on the scale of things that are technical , that's more technical in my role .
And she said , yeah , but I'm not sure how I can have a career in tech . And I said but you've already got one . Like , you're learning , you're graduating , you know , with a degree in data science , so you've already got a career . So it's just changing that narrative . There was . she thinks she didn't have one , She's already got one .
So just that kind of perception , change the myth , bust the if you can't see it , you can't be it . all of that kind of wrapped into one is what we've just got to do more of , so that girls see us in technology and go well , she can do it , I can do it .
And you talked about engineering and science And I know I see in front of us here that's really works well on a podcast , I'm sure . But Christina Pearson-Rampi are here , one of our magnificent future lists , plus one on the way , And you create these badges , don't you , Christina ? which is , you know , this is what an engineer looks like , doesn't it ?
Nothing to see here , Yeah .
So part of what I wanted to do is kind of showcase the diversity and stem and showcase that there's not one person that looks specifically like an engineer or scientist or physicist . So created some pin badges that say this is what an engineer looks like and then had lots of demand for kind of all different careers and then in stem and yeah .
Sorry for hovering over you in a very awkward manner there . Sorry , i'm kicking your drink over . Nothing to see here . It's all good .
Definitely works better on the podcast , but we talk about backstories as well and your stories and your path , and when we do our monthly power ups we always talk about you know , we want to enable these conversations to happen and no one has the one straight path . Everyone has a different journey .
But do you think , judging that you can feel limited by that back story , or feel defined by where you come from , or whether this be educational , socioeconomic , biological , biological ? You know where I'm going to go , don't ?
you Absolutely , yep . So as somebody who and there'll be people in the room that have also shared this with me but as somebody who has suffered hugely with things like imposter syndrome in the past , what I take kind of comfort in some ways is that this isn't just about a thought . This is actually quite biological .
So some of you will know that we , by about the age of seven , we have already kind of set our core beliefs in our mind , and those core beliefs could be , you know , i am not worth it , i am . You know people are not trustworthy , whatever that is .
And as we learn in life , you know they set our kind of limiting beliefs as we go and , you know , the dendrites and the neural pathways in our brain get worked through over and over again .
So actually , as human beings , it's really easy to go through the path of least resistance and think about that limiting belief when we think about doing something , because that's what we've learned from a very young age .
But that's also really empowering , right , because that means that if we know that and we know that actually to go through the long grass and tread down a new path is going to take a little bit more , a little bit harder work , a little bit more effort . That's fine because we can kind of manage our expectations .
So I have definitely suffered with limiting beliefs a lot and I have had to work really hard to slowly , slowly , slowly build out the new path with whether it is gratitude , whether it is positive affirmations , whether it is myth busting through proof and evidence of the limiting beliefs .
So you know , very young age we set these and , but there is a route out of them which I think is really powerful .
And how about when you're taking those self-limiting beliefs out the way and high-fiving your achievement that you've just become a partner ?
Yeah , no , Yeah , that's yeah . Well , we had a discussion .
We had a discussion before we were talking about , i think , hannah , you've just you've not long changed job . In fact , it was April , but you still not changed your LinkedIn profile .
I'm not changed internally at work , okay . But , it is , it's , there's a psychological blocker . If you like it's , should I put it on there ? What will they think if I put it on there ? Do they know ?
like you suddenly question everything And I think , if you , if you're internalizing and doing that , then what's that room of people you're trying to impress , thinking , if you can't stand up behind what you've done and what you've achieved through hard work , like you can't project that success into the room of people you're trying to impress , or , you know , mentor or
whatever that is . I think that's really a pertinent point and probably , one way or another , doing very well at And that is about high .
We talk about high five . You became managing director at the turn of the year , didn't you ? Laura ? And I was like , yes , it's amazing . When you see somebody , you know whether it's on LinkedIn or you see something popping in a news feed or a Google alert . It's amazing .
That's the first thing we ever want to do , i think on the when they announced the honors system my husband will tell you I'll drive him mad because at half 10 on that Friday night I am going through that list trying to find the amazing people who were probably limiting their own thoughts and hiding behind . You know that , oh gosh , not me .
And what are people going to think ? and people are going to think I don't deserve it or whatever . I think it's really important to start that . We're in a similar group . I've seen Dr Marnie Millard here in the room and we both got our honors on the same day and we ended up both being at the palace at the same day .
And we're in a WhatsApp group where it went absolutely bonkers , and I think it's having that power of people and tribe around you to high five . I think it's important .
Yeah , and I think maybe the key also is in it's a self-limiting belief . You're limiting yourself . Everyone that looks at you isn't going . God , i can't believe you made partner . No one's saying that Like that doesn't happen . We don't do that , you know .
I know sometimes maybe women aren't always the best advocates of each other , but we're getting much better at it . So just remind yourself is anyone else looking at me in the way that I think that they are or the way that I'm looking at myself ?
I reckon if you asked yourself that question , you'd probably quite quickly go yeah , no , they're not really , are they ? And then pop that self-belief in the box , or the limiting self-belief in the box , and put it away . you own it . I mean , the end of the day , no one else is going to do it for you .
So I think actually Gem is here tonight as well and to be Gem for the podcast and talked about when I think she got nominated and then giving it to her friend to kind of sense tech And her friend's almost kind of going don't be ridiculous , You haven't put that . You haven't put that . What about this ? You've just said the word , just Adjusted that .
So I think sometimes it's a great way . It's ask your buddies , Ask your cheerleaders , This room tonight again on a podcast not working that well , But wash our social media feed . But I think it is . I love this community because of that , if you like , that high-fiving of each other . And I think we see that when it comes to the awards .
We see that when we do all power-ups . We see that when we either tonight there's people in this room who haven't seen for a long time , It's fantastic right .
Yeah , it's really rewarding . That conversation with that lady about the data science has really stuck with me And the impact that you can have to one person or 10 people is really significant .
And a final question . I don't know where the time goes , but the final question is we talk about D&I , diversity and inclusion . We've been those buzzwords of building successful businesses for some time , But we know that many voices are still underrepresented in the boardroom and particularly in specific sectors . What is the one thing ?
We always like , a call to action , don't we ? We always like a right crack on . We want you listening to this podcast going right , I'm on it , I'm doing it . What is the one thing And it is one , I know I gave you two questions at the start , so it's two parts .
So I know what you'll try and do , But what's the one thing that we can all implement today to create that positive change going forward ? Where do I start , Laura ?
OK . So the one thing , then , that I'm going to say is we've got to . You said the pathway to power , right , we've got to maintain that this is a pathway and we've got to hold on to that power .
So it sometimes feels like it's not getting any easier , and as we start to make our voices heard and hold the line about why D&I is massively important , there are some dissenting voices growing . I'm hearing . We see it sometimes in public , we see it at work . So my one takeaway is I'm not going to let those voices drown us out .
Right , we are here to make a difference . We are here to smooth that path to power for everybody else that comes behind us . So I'm going to drown them out . You drown them out , can you ?
I think we need to be our own cheerleaders And encourage our friends , our community to be cheerleaders of us and of themselves .
I think if we can all just be a bit more lavish in our kind of encouragement of each other , then we are stronger with that message as a group than as an individual And we kind of shift the needle on the stereotypes that maybe come with being female . Georgina partner .
Georgina ? Partner . Georgina , yeah , i think so . when we talk about board rooms , we talk about diversity . I think the challenge with that is that if I said to you , give me a diverse team , you'd probably go well , how many do you want of each ? And that gives you a kind of quota which actually can reinforce quite a negative behavior .
If you say give me an inclusive team where everyone belongs , that changes our mindset to something that is questioning what works for people and that is questioning how people thrive . It's changing the culture and it's changing the mindset .
So I think there's loads of little things you can do , but I think actually shifting the way people think about it is the only way you're going to . diversity is still obviously key , but you've got to shift it to this kind of sense of inclusion and belonging .
Thank you so much . What an amazing panel . A massive round of applause to our panel . Let's see them . It's more tote bags for me . There we go , drown out the noise . Be more lavish . I love that . Pin badges for you , christina , over there I can see that And it's that thinking differently Don't just .
You've got to be wider in that And I think , great top tips . That's what we like .
We like you to be able to go away and think , whether you're listening to this podcast , whether you're walking the dog , whether you're on a delayed train , whether you're sort of on a lovely balcony here at these amazing offices in EY being part of a podcast that we want you to take and do something with this .
So a massive , massive thank you to all of you . A massive , massive thank you to my live audience . Give yourself a cheers and a round of applause And thank all of you for listening . We love you for listening to our podcast . Thank you for celebrating our sixth anniversary of the Northern Power Women podcast .
Please do recommend us to a friend , share feedback , leave a review . You can even drop us an old-school email podcast at northernpowerwomencom . Join us on all our socials at North Power Women on Twitter , northern Power Women . On all the rest , please do listen to us next week when we will be talking to even more amazing individuals . My name is Simone .
This is the Northern Power Women podcast and what goes on media production . Thank you .