Debbie Cook
[00:00:00] Simone Roche MBE: Hello. Welcome to the Northern Power Women Podcast. My name is, Simone and I am the host founder, chief exec of Northern Power Women. And this is our Path To Power season and a season where I have the amazing job of talking to fantastic change makers and trail blazers who are making a difference in their organizations, in their communities. They're challenging the norm and creating more inclusive cultures and are all total badass role models. And there's so much to learn from all of our guests this season. And I'm delighted this week to be welcomed by Debbie Cook, who is the Chief executive at Grimsby Town Football Club.
[00:00:37] Debbie, welcome to the podcast.
[00:00:38] Debbie Cook: Thank you. Absolute pleasure to be here.
[00:00:40] Simone Roche MBE: It's great and it is brilliant, I love talking to people and individuals from different sectors and different backgrounds. And we were talking just before we started about what football is, cause it's not just two lots of 11 people on the pitches, kicking a ball round with jumpers for goalposts. It's every sector, isn't it that comes into play and how would you describe the world of football or the business of football?
[00:01:00] Debbie Cook: Like you say, it is multifaceted. And that's what makes it a wonderful industry to work in.
[00:01:06] I think the thing for me is just that power of football is for the community. When you think about the brilliant relationships that you have, a lot of those will be formed around football chat. Doesn't matter who you support, it's such a a commonality. But then, if you are running a football club, you get to harness the power of what you can do to make memories for that community.
[00:01:32] But you also then have to run a business that looks after a first team, elite sports team, an academy, a magazine, a shop, corporate hospitality, a stadium, the list goes on and on and on. So it is incredibly varied, but what a privilege to work in the industry, that impacts so many.
[00:01:53] And is the topic of conversation up and down the country bringing joy to millions?
[00:01:59] Simone Roche MBE: And actually we talked about in the the pre, I'm an Evertonian so thank goodness for that Sunday afternoon a few weeks ago. Because it is the center that you say it's the center, it's the community, it's the enabler in many places. But you were appointed Chief Executive at Grimsby and oh, the comments, well, it's 2023, it's bananas, isn't it? But some of the comments, will she be washing the kit? As long as she has time to make tea for the kids? What's it like, how did you deal with that and what is it like being a woman in the multifaceted businesses of football in 2023?
[00:02:31] Debbie Cook: Do you know what? I don't really think about the fact that I'm a woman in football. What I think about is that I'm someone who works in the industry and I happen to be a woman. I appreciate that I have a huge responsibility as a role model for other women out there and for girls that want to think about a career and maybe aren't considering football because they see that it's not accessible.
[00:02:58] But generally my view is that all organizations need diversity and I'm really confident that I bring a set of skills to this organization based on my past experience of a chief executive. And many of those have been transferable, but I'd also say that what I bring as a woman is diversity in the boardroom, diversity across the organization.
[00:03:25] And just a different approach. I prefer to think that I'm a person working in football without a doubt I have probably had to work harder to be taken seriously, but my view generally is that I'll be judged on my successes. So the comments on social media I think are really quite sad. Those kind of comments. I don't let those get to me because generally I think Yep, they're sad but what I'll do is I'll just crack on with being good at my job, with running a brilliant football club and be judged on my successes, be judged on the results of the organization, I think there are lots of things said on social media that are really saddened.
[00:04:17] We could make a whole podcast about that. But I think it's my job just to change that stereotypical behavior by doing what I do and do it well. And I just happened to be a woman doing it.
[00:04:33] Simone Roche MBE: Exactly. Let's take the labels away. We've talked about that on other podcasts and it went beyond across the line though, didn't it?
[00:04:38] Recently you had a number of malicious social media comments directed at you personally. I know a statement from the club said that perverse and degrading messages came from an anonymous. It's always the social media warriors in their pants from a basement but misogynistic nature, undermining humiliation just awful. I can't even imagine how incredibly hard to deal with that was for you, debbie.
[00:05:00] Debbie Cook: It was really hard to deal with. Anyone that knows me, knows I'm really sensitive anyway. What you see is what you get with me. There's not a work Debbie and a personal Debbie.
[00:05:09] There's just Debbie. And I really care. I care about people. And so if I see this stuff happening to other people or if I see negativity in the world, It hits me and I feel it. And this harassment was horrendous, but I also felt it for people around me.
[00:05:30] I've got two grownup daughters. And they both said mum you need to, you know, cause I'm a mum, I'm somebody's daughter, I'm somebody's wife. And this horrible stuff was out there anonymously. And they were saying, you need to say, you are a mum. This is ridiculous.
[00:05:47] But of course all you would do then is add fuel to a fire because why would you respond to that kind of toxicity, to that venomous behavior. I just try to think, what must be going on in a person's life for them to be writing this kind of stuff? But yeah, it re it really affected me.
[00:06:09] The support I had from our board was just incredible. The support I had from my staff team, I had one member of staff come and throw her arms around me with tears in her eyes once she realized, I can't believe this is happening. I hadn't seen it. I had staff members say, We'd love to go on social media and say fabulous stuff, but they don't wanna be involved in that, that kind of discussion because it's awful.
[00:06:36] I had fans send me flowers. I had fans send me notes and cards and letters, so all that stuff was a huge comfort to me. But we shouldn't be there in the first place, should we? We have this whole rhetoric about being kind and don't say anything on social media that you wouldn't say to someone's face.
[00:06:57] And there are people out there that really need to think about what they're doing and what an impact that has on on people. Cause it didn't just impact me, it impacted my family, impacted my team. And this is a wonderful industry to be involved in. But people seeing some of the stuff that you have to put up with in that regard will probably give it a wide birth and that would be such a shame.
[00:07:22] Simone Roche MBE: And you know what, it's interesting that one of your comments that you just said was, I'm worried about what was going on in their mind. And it's interesting because when you joined Grimsby, one of your main aim was to create that really positive culture in the club. So you've just been on the receiving end of this just quite diabolical language and behavior, but actually you still had to, you're still stopping there and going, but what are they okay with that? And my team. So you've already started, haven't you, with that positive culture. You've already started sort of shift in that, you are receiving all the northern hugs, which is amazing, but what sort of drives you and you came to create that aim of this positive culture?
[00:08:04] But where do you start with that? Especially when you come into this and where are you on the journey? Because you never, ever get there, do you? It's always, it's an ongoing in iterative process.
[00:08:14] Debbie Cook: I think for me, before you can inspire any change in any organization, you have to inspire trust. So when I thought about building a culture. I wanted staff to make sure that they got the real me. I was joining an organization that has seen very little change in a very long time, and I knew that some team members would absolutely welcome that with open arms, but some would really struggle with that and be fearful of it.
[00:08:49] So I spent time with every single contracted member of staff, and I asked them about them so that they could see that I genuinely listened, genuinely cared, wanted to hear about them, and then I asked them what they'd want me to change in the organization if I'd got a magic wand. And I asked them what was amazing about the organization and people just open up.
[00:09:14] I tried to show that I'd listened and respond to some of that, and I think that started to build trust. I tried to always do what I said I would do. When I said I'd do it or communicate why if we couldn't do something so that you just build that real values led feeling around the club. That authenticity and relationships are key in every walk of life, aren't they? So you just start to build relationships. And then what we did was we set the club's values. That was one of the first pieces of work that we did where we said, this is what we're about. And we engage the team in that process, because some of the team here are in their fifties, they've never worked anywhere else. This club is their life. And I understand that. It is addictive. It is a wonderful thing to be a part of but this was massive for them. And we needed to harness their knowledge and harness their understanding, get them involved. So we shaped the values and then we started to make sure that they were being lived across the organization. And I think we saw that right across the organization. We talked about being greater together and I can honestly say it's not a slogan. Some people might say, well, that's a bit cheesy. It is what we talked about. Our first team players were talking about being greater together. But you have to live that, don't you? It's no point me being at the training ground and not speaking to someone as I pass by them or not genuinely inquiring how they are.
[00:10:55] Because then we're not greater together. We all are. I think we live that. And I think people felt that, and I think it translated right across the football club at every level. And I hope that whilst our first team players and management staff did all the heavy lifting in terms of the successes that we've had, I think that there were loads of things that we did behind the scenes that that also had an impact, and that is just one of them because it was genuine.
[00:11:23] Simone Roche MBE: It comes across that absolutely genuine nature, that greater together absolutely comes. I don't think anyone listening to this will have any doubt that you do not walk in that step and walk in that phrase and walk in that ethos every day. We talk about that, deeds not words, you know?
[00:11:39] And it's never about the slogans, it's actually about bringing that to life. I feel it. I feel it. And we've never properly met. And I feel it right now. And the words, that passion, that energy will transfer, isn't it? And this is, this is amazing because you come from a different path.
[00:11:52] You are not from these football parts, and you've been in local government, you've been in charity, different sectors. What do you think were the main skills you brought this passion in. What did you think you transferred over into football?
[00:12:06] Well, I think everything's about relationships that authentic leadership. I think people see through it when it's not real. And, and I believe in strong relationships that will then, absolutely thrive in the good times, but really see you through the tough times and when you need to have those difficult conversations because people see the real you.
[00:12:28] And you've built those relationships. I think you always need good, empathetic leadership. And hopefully I've brought some of that being a strategic thinker, in terms of where we want to take this football club, we've had such a good first couple of years, since our new owners bought the football club and they appointed me, it's literally two years this week since I joined the football club.
[00:12:51] And it has been an amazingly successful couple of years on and off the pitch. But that's just the start. And our ambitions are huge in terms of what we want for the club, what we want for the town. And so you've got to have a strategic mind and you've got to have an ambitious mind. Something to inspire to not be daunted by the scale of that challenge.
[00:13:16] And of course, you've got to be a great communicator, haven't you in football at every single level. Our supporters need to know what's going on and when.
[00:13:25] Absolutely. And I think that's great advice, isn't it, for anyone worried out there that they think, oh gosh, I can't take that leap.
[00:13:30] We've had people on the podcast before who work professional services, Went to local government and the other way round, it's good advice, isn't it? That networking, that relationship building. Any other top tips out there you give for anyone thinking, oh, okay. I could, I could give that a go.
[00:13:46] Debbie Cook: I've always loved football. But the reality is I didn't think I'd ever be able to work in football because we know those barriers exist, don't we? And I hadn't come in a kind of a grassroots level if you like. I'd done some volunteering in football when I was younger.
[00:14:04] And so I feel really fortunate that , my opportunity in football was by a chance meeting. One of the co-owners of the football club literally got in touch with me during lockdown, after a LinkedIn connection, and said your name keeps coming up, I'd really like a chat with you.
[00:14:21] And I suppose that gave me the confidence because I knew that I was jumping from one sector into a sector that was completely new and fairly daunting. But I was going to work with good people. I knew that I would have the support of the co-owners, and so I think my advice would be just assure yourself of that.
[00:14:46] I think if you can go and work for good people, you can see that their values led if they know that you have all these transferable skills, but actually you're going to have some learning to do in terms of the sector. And everybody's got that when they transfer across. As long as they understand that and are, and are prepared for that, then I think Go for it.
[00:15:07] And then your successes will give you the confidence, won't they? And as I said earlier on the pod, Simone, without a doubt, I've had to work extra hard to be taken seriously in this, in this business, but it only takes two or three comments from people that have been in the industry and are well respected in the industry to say, wow, I love what you're doing at Grimsby.
[00:15:33] You know that, that you're doing isn't really being done elsewhere, and your use of data in that department is leading in the field. And you think, start to have some confidence and start to believe. So I would say you're at work a lot of the time. You've got to be doing something that you enjoy and go for it if it's working for decent people.
[00:15:56] Simone Roche MBE: I told you I had trailblazers on this podcast, didn't I? So, and the final, because you've got superpowers and it's all about being greater together, isn't it? You along with your fellow board appointment, Christine, the first woman on the board in 143 years in the Premier League across the England at the moment, there's only 10 women on all of those boards.
[00:16:13] So how are we going to change this? We've got 90 seconds to do it. What are we going to do?
[00:16:17] Debbie Cook: I think we've got to understand that every area of the world, be it a board, an organization needs diversity and a woman joining a board does not take anything away from those that are already on board.
[00:16:34] So a woman joining a football board isn't taking anything away from the males. And their experience that are already on there, it's just bringing a whole other level of experience. So let's just embrace that, not be afraid of that. We are just going to create a super richness across organizations because we're tapping into different experiences, a different take on things, a different approach. And that mix of diversity, that's the superpower for boards.
[00:17:07] Simone Roche MBE: Absolutely. There's an amazing woman out there called Stacy Copeland, who is a boxer, but she started off playing for football, one of the first female or footballers who happened to be female, play for England.
[00:17:17] And she talks about it, proper mancunian way about it being, it's not like pie. It's not like carving it up and you just lose a bit, you know? And rightly so. Your energy, your enthusiasm, your passion, really comes across.
[00:17:29] And I've loved, loved, loved Debbie talking to you today. Thank you so much for joining me.
[00:17:34] Debbie Cook: Thank you. I've loved, loved,loved being on here.
[00:17:37] Simone Roche MBE: This is what you get when you get two enthusiastic women to come together on a podcast. It's amazing and it's a fantastic industry. It's fantastic and amazing. You've only been in this industry a couple of years and it's the passion with which you speak, this vision that you have created. And I love that everything that you talk about, it's about convening football, it's about inspiring trust, it's about doing what you say and it's about the power of being greater together. So Debbie, thank you so much and I look forward to our next conversation because there's going to be a part two somewhere down the line.
[00:18:05] Debbie Cook: Thank you.
[00:18:06] Simone Roche MBE: And thank all of you for listening today. Remember, these are weekly episodes. I wish I could do them every day. I am not going to lie. Please do subscribe and so you don't miss an episode of these amazing conversations what we have as we are on our pathway to power. Please do leave us any kind of good, positive feedback because that's what we thrive on here, because we wanna do more.
And please do share with us your top tips because this is all about that mission of professional and personal development and actually empowering each other and paying it forward. Check out all of our activities on our Power Hub, at wearepower.net. You can find out all about our events, our insights, our podcasts, and do stay connected across all of our social media channels at North Power Women on Twitter, and Northern Power Women on all the others. My name is Simone. This is the Northern Power Women Podcast. A what goes on Media Production.