¶ Empowering Voices in Male-Dominated Sectors
Hello , hello and welcome to the Northern Power Women podcast . For your career and your life , no matter what business you're in . Hello , hello and welcome to the Northern Power Women podcast . My name is Simone and you are so very welcome .
This podcast is all about highlighting the fantastic role models , sharing their inspiring personal and professional stories with you , and we want to bring some of those top tips , advice , guidance , side hacks Don't even know if that's a thing , but anyway , we'll bring the side hacks as well as the hacks along , whatever it may be , to help you through you , whether
it be your life , your career , whatever it may be . So , without further ado , let us meet this week's guest . It is Tammy , tammy Kuboye , and it is a welcome back to you . Welcome back to the Northern Power Women podcast . Tammy is the Creative Digital Project Manager and Deputy Co-Chair of Women in Technology at the fantastic Barclays Technology .
Tammy , welcome back to the pod .
Oh , my goodness , simone , it's like coming back home . I didn't even intend to rhyme , but there we are . Thank you so much for having me back . I'm excited for today's session . Come on , let's jump right into it .
Let's get in . Well , do you know what ? Um , I think we could just do it all in the form of a rhyme so I am creative .
So let's just see , and if it doesn't flow , it doesn't flow . But we tried , it doesn't flow but we've given it a go .
Look at that .
You are on fire , simone , come on .
Well , you were on the podcast just over a year ago with the wonderful Laura and it was that whole conversation . Was it a year ago ? Was it two years ago ? It was a year .
But it's just over a year . I think it's almost 18 months . Oh , my goodness , it's almost two years's . Just over a year . I think it's almost 18 months . Oh , my goodness , it's almost two years ago . Simone , Too long .
I thought it was Well one of the things I took about that you talked on that podcast about . We are all learners , you know , it's never , never too old , and we're just in the process as we head fast forward with our trainers on into the eighth Northern Power Women Awards .
Reflect on an amazing one of our commended last year was a lady called Professor Diana , and we always have a mentor program that wraps around the awards , so all of the shortlists get offered a mentor and I remember Professor Diana Professor Diana is an octogenarian and she was like when we said , do you want a mentor ?
She was like absolutely , because you never stop learning and you're passionate about the learning vibe , isn't it ? We're all learners every day .
Oh , yes , Look , every day is a learning day and I think unconsciously we don't . I mean , we don't think about that consciously , but really every single day it's a learning day .
But then it's up to us to look for the lessons and absorb what that change looks like , because if we're not looking out for the lessons , then we're missing so every day is a learning day , absolutely , and you've worked across sort of spectrum , haven't you ?
whether it be ? You know law finance , tech . You know these are pretty male dominated sectors , aren't they that ? You know law finance tech ? You know these are pretty male dominated sectors , aren't they that ? You know what sort of what things have you ? What ceilings and walls have you crashed through in those industries ?
Let me tell you about it . So I think , basically , I get my strength from the fact that my parents so I have got Nigerian background . My mother , she , is of Nigerian heritage but she , um , she's a Yorkshire lass .
She was a Yorkshire lass god rest her soul and but she and my father gave me that flexibility and the ability to believe that I could do whatever I wanted . And so it wasn't until I started my work life I think I had probably had those rose tinted glasses on and I thought everyone in the world thought like that .
And I got into the workplace and I'm like I'm speaking , but people aren't either hearing me or they are ignoring me , and I grew up quite shy , so I and I did have quite a quiet voice . So I thought , okay , next time I must speak up louder .
And that's when I realized that it's not just about me speaking up louder , it's about me finding a voice that people could not ignore , because they are going to ignore me . I'm a woman , I'm black , I'm in a male-dominated area and we just get taken for granted .
I was in a boardroom one day and I was there as a project management analyst and I was told to go and make the teas and coffees and I was like , no , I'm not , I'll go and get the PA and it's not the PA's job . But I was working in a hierarchical community in Germany and that's what the PA's had to do .
I said I'll help you out , I go and get them , but I'm not going to make the teas and coffins .
Do you know and I think it is about that , isn't it ? We all got to speak up louder and and , like you just said , you know a voice we've all got to be the voice . You can't ignore . Um , was that I mean ? Did you say that you were out in Germany at this time ? Was that hard ?
Was that something you just had to really lean into to do and think if I don't , then this is just going to go on forever , right ?
yes , it was , and I'll tell you why .
So I so , prior to my coming to Barclays , I had been contracting for many , many years , because it was a lifestyle that suited me and also because I thought I would get bored just sitting in a job and I love the fact that there are people that can stay in one job and one role for 50 years more to you but I am not that person , and so I wanted a
life where I could move about and not be bored .
So there was this contract life that I was dealing with , and as part of that I I came into this organization because it was trying to be brought up to um , you know the , the , the british standard um , and I was the only black person in the building that was working on the floors , and it's not because I don't see color , but it's because I choose not to
have a victim mentality . So for me I I recognized that the only other black people were the ones that were cleaning or the ones that were opening the door , and I made sure to make friends with them because I didn't want them to think that I was , you know , snotty and my nose was up in the air and I thought I was better than them . I'm not .
I just came from different , a different background and at different sort of circumstances .
And so what I found was , I thought to myself , well , I have to be and obviously this was probably something I shouldn't have done I have to be a representation for them , because everyone in this building does not expect anyone who's who looks like me to be on the fifth , sixth or seventh floor . I'm supposed to be in the basement with the help .
So there's a way you carry yourself when you know that there's a certain perspective , unspoken bias against you and that helps , that permeates , because sometimes it's also about the unspoken word . It's the way you carry yourself and it's the way you put your message across , and it took me years to learn how to get my message across .
But then that's we fail forward , right ? You try it when you're like hmm , hmm , maybe not , and then you fine tune it Again learning day . Every day is a learning day .
And I love that . Talk about failing forward , but the thing about you , tammy , always strikes me as that intention , you know . And so , whether you're failing forward , whether you've said something oh , maybe that wasn't the way to do it , I think it's just it's keep doing it , it's get up , isn't it ? Get up , do it again .
You know , do you think it's just it's keep ?
do it . It's get up , isn't it get up ? Do it again . You know , um , do you think it's got easier ? I think I've gotten better at being able to read the room quicker . I applied a one size fits all and you can't do that .
But , like like you just said , simone , you learn like you do something and it either floats like a feather or it drops like a lead balloon , but then you then you know okay , this works , I'm gonna try it again and then maybe slightly tweak it . And this doesn't work . I'm not even gonna try it again .
So I've gotten better at reading the room and then that's helped me to be more proactive instead of reactive . But it's never easy .
It's every time you come into a room and you have that you can feel the tension and the bias , but unspoken it's um , it's flight or fear , and I choose the adrenaline to be excitement , like , okay , let's tackle this one , then let's see how this one's going to turn out .
So yeah , yeah and and and . Then that's what you need . It's that is that advocacy as well , because you're the , you're the one who's kind of blazing that trail , in that There'll be other people in that room who feel that tension , who feel that awkwardness , and you're the one , if it comes back to your point , isn't it ?
Be the voice you can't ignore , and I know you have the great role of being deputy co-chair of the Women in Technologies at Barclays , of being deputy co-chair of the women in technologies at Barclays . And what is the ? How are you going about demystifying some of this ?
Because you know some of this , you know we talk about oh gosh , we're all the women in tech . How have you kind of broken and sort of disassembled some of those myths ? Or have you just got a hammer to it and smashed them ?
And that's really that you say that , because
¶ Empowering Women in Tech and Allies
for a while that was my approach .
But when I came into Barclays , having come from that so the organization that I worked in in Germany was 300 strong right , barclays is probably the largest organization that I've worked in so I came in and I felt like I had been dropped into an ocean , purely also because I've been on maternity leave for six months , um six months , nine months even and I came
back in with mom brain , which is a thing I couldn't remember . I was like why did I , why did I ever think I could do this job ? Imposter syndrome set in . It was a new set of people , new , new ways of working , so I was a little bit out . I felt out of my depth . I wasn't , but I felt out of my depth .
Um , and then the reason , the way I came into Women in Tech , was I thrive on community and I had to find a community . So I went on the internet and I checked around . Where can I , you know , where can I find people that are like me ?
And at that time I did not consider myself a Woman in Tech , but because of my background my parents are , you know , I come from a long line of freedom fighters . Anything that's got to do with women , young people under representative minorities , I'm there . Whatever it is men , women , black , brown I'll be there .
And so I found myself in women in tech , and at that point there was a little bit of a transition going on and there came an opportunity to come in as deputy co-chair and I said yes , and this is one thing that I've found that helps me along my journey . I say yes first and then I figure out how to do it . It doesn't matter if I've done it or not .
I'll say yes , I'll give it a go , like our flow that we're not doing yet , but I'll say yes and then we'll figure out the way there's always a way .
That's and you know what that's my mantra say Say yes and work it out later . That has always been when people say you know what's the best advice you'd always give your younger self or you give to someone else . It's absolutely say yes and figure it out . You know later and I think you using that . I think there's so much about this podcast .
We're talking about your voice and you want your voice to help fight any injustice , especially , you know , among marginalized groups , and you obviously got your role as the chair , co-chair of women in tech . Um , how are you taking that voice wider in in in your workplace and community , if you like to , to kind of really help fight that injustice ?
indeed , and , and I think one of the one of the key things that stood out to me and this is something that , um , you know , I , I know that a lot um , when I came on on the show um , it's a show , it's a show , um , with with laura . We're talking about how we are looking at ways where we can support our colleagues that work in ops .
So if you , if you , if you go to the layman on the street and ask them about barclays , they'll tell you it's a bank because that's traditionally , for 300 years plus , we are known as a bank , and you go to the layman on the street and ask them about Barclays , they'll tell you it's a bank Because traditionally , for 300 years plus , we are known as a bank .
And you go down the high street and you see the bank , you don't think about the tech that sits behind it , you don't think about how the ATM machines work , and so we have a lot of colleagues in operations who serve our customers diligently , who are very passionate about what they do , but they don't know or think that they also can partake in the tech side
of things , and so it's creating the awareness that there is a life outside of operations , if you feel like you want to explore and expand your wing . So it's creating that pipeline of attraction .
And also , we've recently moved into pillars from a women in tech perspective for the whole of EMEA , and the pillar that I'm most passionate about is attract , because it's not just attracting women who are in different spheres of life into technology , it's also attracting women who are returning from work like me think well , what do , what can I do ?
I've been out for so long , I don't know anything about technology , I don't know anything about the trends or what can I offer . And then also understanding that there's girls , pre-pubescent and even girls in primary school , who probably don't know that there is a world open to them in technology .
So that attract pipeline starts from the cradle all the way up onto life moments . And for me , that's what I'm passionate about demystifying . If you've got a microwave at home , if you've got a telephone um , a mobile phone they're called these days showing my htv you are , you are technologically active , my girl and you have us voice in technology , and so it's .
It's just showing the other ways . If you love sports , there's sports tech . If you love music , there's music tech .
There's a place for everyone in technology , um , and it's just showing , showing that strength , and you know it's music to my ears , if you like , because I think so often we try and sort of put people in those boxes and people have that .
You know you talk about tech and people think , oh gosh , you know you talk about tech and people think , oh gosh , you know . Lab coat and drone on coding , that's all you know . They think that associates it with and , equally , you mentioned sort of sport as well .
There We've been doing our International Women's Day series all around sport and it's you know , it's not just there for people who participate in sport , there's a whole ecosystem around that and you this whole attract , if you like , the attract , pipeline it around that , and you this whole attract , if you like , they trap pipeline .
It's not just come in and work here , it's actually look at me doing this . You know , look at me doing this . This is this is . You know , it doesn't have to be what you think it is , it's actually what are you interested in ? You know , come , take a look , be curious , and I think this is why you need the visibility .
So we've talked about using your voice . We're now talking about that , one of the other things that I know we are both absolutely mutually passionate about is allyship , and you know , one of the big things that we're really proud to be working with the Barclays and Massive on is about how we really enable and mobilize that community to attract .
Use the attract word again so we can attract , so we can be visible . Talk to me about the male allyship . I know this could be a whole other pod in itself , and now we'd probably , but it's important , right , isn't it ?
it's not just important , but it's it's , it's , it's critical to the solution it is and and I think you've hit the nail on the head , and I want to just say big up to Ilka , who's our male champion here he will disagree for allyship , Because here's the thing men and boys are allies from birth , but they are not shaped .
I'm going to be a little bit controversial here , but it takes a woman to bring a child into the world , boy or girl , and the concept of allyship is actually fostered in the home . It's about being able to understand the community that you're in . If we take the homestead , for example , you're in a community .
You're raised , and I'm going to use Ilka as an example . He's going to hate me for it , but he was raised by the matriarchs in his family and so he's got a strong sense of passion towards them . And for me , allyship is being able to stand for what is right , especially when you see that disassociation happen in society and advocacy goes hand in hand .
Because if we've got , you know , women on one side and men on one side , then we're working in silos . But the whole point of it is coming together to understand that society has created this imbalance of strengths and weaknesses , that society has created this imbalance of strengths and weaknesses .
But we can foster that and strengthen that by having the advocates in our mails coming forward to say you know what ? This has been a stereotype for too long . We are going to break that stereotype . We are going to change the status quo .
We are going to make sure that if we can't have that space to have that equity , then we're going to shout out about it , and that's what makes me most proud about this .
You know the synergy that we have it is and it is and I love the way that we've we've come about it , if you like , organically , if you like , and um , you know , ilka , we can . We can we have a whole podcast on our you know , uh , our love of ilka .
Ilka is managing director of barclays Tech and has literally sort of have to been at the awards last year , been in the room , was like , you know , we want to do more . What can we do ? And he talks so passionately about his passion , if you like , to do and to take action , not just to be passive , because allyship is not passive .
It got to be active and you've really got to lean into it and and it was like , well , actually , why don't we do something about it ? You know , we've always been all genders . That's always been something I've been really , really , really adamant about .
And but why don't we create something that we will kind of , you know , work with and for to really manifest , um , and showcase and spotlight ? We took out the awards have always been about showcasing , spotlighting , celebrating role models .
This is going to be about manifesting , growing , engaging , educating , you know , and really helping support , build and foster that community , as you just said . It's a perfect point that you know , our boys are grown . We're born as allies , you know , but it's how do we foster and grow ?
We need to make it not frightening , need to make it not sort of scary to be an ally for fear of saying the wrong thing . You know , um , it's about doing . It's about that . How do we be the ? How do we bring that activity ? So I'm really excited about what this will lie ahead , um , with our advocacy group .
Advocacy group because , like I say , it's not just about a picture in a brochure or a or a photo op or whatever it's about . It's about the doing .
And I think that's where , yeah , and anyone out there who thinks they can't be an ally , anyone out there who thinks that they can't be an advocate for change , you know , whatever it is that you're passionate about , go , just do one small . It can be one small thing . The one small thing adds to truly true change , and you know .
So , whether it is , what do you say actually , tammy , how can we give that one lovely piece of advice out there ? So we've talked a lot about , you know , being visible and speaking up . So that person out there who thinks , do you know what ?
I want to call this out or I want to speak up about this , but they maybe haven't got that confidence or belief that they can . What's the one piece of advice ?
you'd give to them .
So I'd say this and I love that you asked that question , simone , because even as that question was being formulated , all that I could think in my mind was as a baby crawls , it takes a step and a step and a step until it starts to run Find that one thing that you can say yes , it's difficult , I know you said one line , but I'm sorry , it's difficult to
find your voice . But even if you say , actually I don't agree and leave it at that , that's a start . You don't have to go into war and peace . You don't have to go into , because some people don't like confrontation , start . You don't have to go into war and peace . You don't have to go into , because some people don't like confrontation .
You don't have to be confrontational . All you have to say is actually I don't agree or , if you want to be less confrontational , I have a different opinion , and everyone is entitled to their opinion , because you can't go wrong there . It's how I believe it should be . It's what I think . It's different from what you think .
I'm not saying you're better or you're right or I'm right or whatever , but I believe differently , and that's one thing that can change a situation . You'll be surprised how those little words can actually make someone think oh actually , okay , they have a point and that's where someone else alongside you or someone else has gone .
Thank goodness , me too .
You know it's yes , it's the me too movement . It is it . Honestly . Some people are waiting for someone else to speak up , Like it's bubbling inside of them . They want to say something and they're fearful , and it doesn't have to be long words . I have a different opinion .
I love that . I think that is amazing advice . Tammy , you are amazing . Thank you so much for joining me today . I'm honest I could do this every week with you . What a great way . What a great way to kick start your day by listening to fabulous Tammy on the podcast . Tammy , thank you so much for joining me .
Thank you for being absolutely a force of nature by speaking up louder and being the voice you can't ignore . And don't forget , say yes and figure out later . I thank all of you for listening today . We absolutely love bringing the phenomenal role models that we've got in and across our community to you , passing on those top tips , that advice , that guidance .
Thank you so much and thank you all to listen . We love your feedback , so please keep it coming . Join in the conversation at North power women on twitter and northern power women and all of our other socials . Thank you so much . Find out and keep connected on everything we do on our digital hub . We are power dot net . Thank you for listening .
My name is simone . This is the northern power women podcast and what goes on media production .