Food Waste, Community, Dignity - In Conversation with Adam Smith [Surplus to Purpose]

Right now in this world, there isn't an alternative for people. You either go to one supermarket or the other. So we want to become part of the alternative if possible. We had to create something that was about dignity as well.

So we took surplus food, we placed a price on it, and people were more willing to pay for it than they were to come and get it, potentially for free, which was really, really, really interesting from my perspective, psychologically, in a world where I passionately argue against that, we shouldn't have companies like us around.

But there is a need and a space for us right now to do what we do until there comes a time where we're not needed or we are needed to the point where we have to sit around that table and play a major part in the discussion around food and food accessibility and supply chain management, production and seasonality and sustainability. Everything that's involved in food.

We need to be sitting on that table and saying, look, you know, we may have millions of people accessing us on a daily basis and so therefore, you may need to look at how you support these kind of much more local, sustainable, food systems that are much, much about the communities rather than about the shareholders. We can shift supply and demand away from the retailers. They won't be able to afford to have so much waste in their systems.

I'm delighted to share this conversation that I had earlier this week with Adam Smith. Adam brings a fabulous perspective on the food system, which comes from years of witnessing the enormous problem of food waste and exploring various angles, trying to address it. Issues in the food system are complex, to say the least. But Adam brings a clarity through his determination to find the root cause of all of this waste.

Do check the description for more information about Adam and the social enterprise he's founded and shares about here. Surplus to purpose. I'm Helen Fisher. This is. We are carbon. And throughout season four, you'll find new weekly conversations as we keep digging deeper and explore what it means to step into regenerative actions within our own place. Creating health and vitality for ourselves, our communities, and the natural world around us, and really igniting a new zest for life.

Be sure to subscribe to keep up to date and check the description for more opportunities to become involved. Enjoy the conversation. Hi Adam, thank you so much for joining us. It's a real pleasure to have you here. And I wonder if you could kick us off with a quick introduction to yourself and a little bit of a summary of the story of surplus to purpose. Sure, yeah. Moderno. And, so, yeah, my name is Adam. I'm the founder of Surplus to Purpose.

I stop food from going to waste, and I redistribute that across the world. Surplus to purpose was born out of a previous project I founded, which was the real junk food project, and that was kind of, that ended pretty much because of Covid. It caught up with it, and I so purpose was born kind of post-Covid world, which obviously is very, very different.

And that's the reason why it exists today is to kind of facilitate surplus food in a way that's much more kind of commercially accessible and, supportive to communities. And it was under the kind of previous guise. Brilliant. So this really is a topic about the food system and being kind of really so much waste, so much extreme amount of waste in that food system. And I think it's it's this stark contrast. It's not just the waste, it's the other side of that picture.

That is the insecurity around food and the food poverty that just seems to really scream of a picture of a broken system, you know, to have food that's going to waste and people that are going hungry. Really? Definitely a broken system. Could you maybe share a few insights about how big a problem food waste is in in the UK?

Right. So you mentioned broken system, but having seen what I've seen over the last 12 years, I'd say it worked perfectly. Well, the system over produces and it has the demand for need. And in the middle somebody makes a lot of profit and is able to continue, because I truly believe that if it was broken and it didn't work for the people that needed it to work, then it wouldn't exist.

And therefore, the way that the way that we see it, whether that's morally, environmentally, socially, financially, however we look at it, it looks like a system that should be able to succeed. And it it to me, it's a paradox. We have overproduction. We have surplus to requirements, we have inflated food prices. We have people that go without, over a billion people on the planet to have access to food, and yet we grow

6000 calories per person per day worldwide. So something you would say is fundamentally wrong. But for those that are probably at the heart of it, or maybe the 1% at the top of it, it probably works perfectly well. And as a species, as a society, as local communities, we see the issues with it.

And because it's so paradoxical and so complex, it's very, very hard for us to come up with a single answer or a solution which will work across the whole spectrum of food and food waste, and therefore we will never achieve it will never achieve, the ending of food waste will never achieve, overproduction or wastage, because it's a fundamental part of how that system is meant to behave. And for people like me and potentially you, Helen, you know, that's really hard to say.

And it's really hard to kind of understand and grasp because, you know, neurodivergent. I see the world in a black and white way. And for me, the food system is very gray. And, it's not just the fact that we waste too much food. It's it's the fact that we continuously and infinitely make anything food, food related items, packaging, you know, pallets, plastic wrapping, everything that's associated with it, with finite resources and with no way for the end result to go.

You know, there's only so many landfills and anaerobic digestion sites and redistribution channels and charities and people in need that we can continue passing the responsibility to before it comes to the point where something will implode and the system will need to take a step back in order to carry on, or it will continue as it is and something will go fundamentally wrong. Whether that's force majeure, whether that's, whether whether that is a wall, whether that's logistics, the a pandemic.

There's so many things that are out of our control that we have no fully understanding of, and yet we still try to constantly achieve year on year growth in a, in a in a finite world. So, yeah. I apologize for being a negative, but the system the system isn't broken. The system is working perfectly. Well, the problem is, is that the system's at some point, probably in our lifetime will implode, something will go wrong, and it'll be holes that have been left to pick up the pieces.

Unless from a grassroots perspective, we change things from the bottom up. And that's the only way I can say this working. Thank you. That's been really interesting, actually, because you're right, the system works in an extraordinarily wonderful way in the sense that it's it's a commercial system and it's channeling and it's using money and it's creating growth for, those that are, designing it.

And I think also there has to be a little nod to the success of it in that we all we are kind of creating a convenience. There's a food system where people can go to the shop and they can get products that are in shiny packages that have come from all across the globe, and they don't have to go out and forage from the trees and, and dig things up. So, so there are so many things about it that are successful, both for the consumer but also for that big system of commerce that's been designed.

So absolutely, take your point there. The system works, the way that it's designed to, but it perhaps is going to not continue to do so because there's an issue with resilience, but. There's an issue with the fact that sustainability, you can't sustain infinite growth on finite resources. And I think that's that's just a physical impossibility. Like you, that there's no law out there that says that's ever going to be achieved. So it's not even like an opinion or it's a matter of fact like that.

That will happen at some point in some way, shape or form. And we're so naive to think that that's not going to happen. We've only got a certain amount of space and resources on this planet that will allow us to continue doing that, unless we decide to put something back into it and get back and stop destroying our overproducing, or carrying out global logistic globalization of of all sorts of forms of logistics and supply chain management, then something will give you, I as a consumer as well.

The the responsibility is passed on to us, I think like it's our fault that it's food waste. It's our fault that this plastic in the ocean is out, you know, but there's no responsibility from the industry whatsoever to say, well, I know I never asked as a consumer for strawberries 365 days a year from any single supermarket anywhere in the UK, probably across Europe as well. But yet it's there.

And then when there's wastage or, prices go up or whatever it is that's affected a single product and then becomes the consumer's problem or the consumer's fault, this is what you wanted. This is what we gave you.

And you know, it's your fault is, you know, there's so much waste when I constantly, constantly go on about and say there may be a lot of waste within household environments, but you're just passing the narrative and responsibility onto the consumer rather than taking responsibility for the supply chain where we could do a lot more about the issues, but they'll never will because people will still continue to keep shopping and spending money 24 seven and, buying things that are out of these

and, and unsustainable and, trouble all over the world, including animal protein, which regardless of your, you know, your beliefs, soya, your dietary requirements, you know, it still plays a major part in things that are going wrong in this world from cutting down trees, but also the other side of the problem to, the wastage that's involved in creating such vast amounts of animal protein.

And, you know, so if we continue to allow the industry to not take responsibility and accept it as consumers, then nothing will ever change because we're constantly strive to try and do things like, you know, Philip, you can't, you know, because, you know, you wasted too much energy and yet they just destroyed thousands of pallets of perfectly edible food out of sight. It's like, well, what difference is it going to make if I buy more cattle or not?

You know, in comparison to what you're actually doing to the planet, website. So I constantly try to remind people and keep people back to where, you know, they should be in terms of their focus. It's like, does that shift in a narrative or responsibility away from your role in this?

Because you create these products, you create plastic bottles, you create, products that people don't need or don't want, and then you flood the market with them, and then you expect us to deal with the responsibility of all of that, including, the consumption of it, which sometimes, like I said, it's physically impossible when we're growing and making 6000 calories per person per day globally. So how is that? How is that possible? How is it that a billion people go without?

So yeah, I constantly keep saying to people, we've got to stay true to the actual root cause here and not start going off. I'm trying to place the cracks and, and, trying to come up with solutions ourselves because it's not our fault. Yeah. I think this that's that's really well said and so important. And it it reminds me of something that you said when we got introduced to each other.

And I'm going to quote you, and please forgive me if I take this a little bit out of context, but I think it's really important. You you said to me, I don't like sustainability. It doesn't work for businesses, and I'm going to give you a chance to kind of correct me if I if I phrase that rubbish, but I absolutely loved what you said because I completely agree. And I think it's the wrong message.

And I think that the consumer and the small business focusing on these little steps of being sustainable really isn't, isn't where we should be putting our focus. So I'm just going to hand that to you and say, could you explain, what you mean and what's behind that? Yeah. I mean, if you think about where some of the narratives come from.

So I know we're talking about food waste, but plastic plays a massive role in food waste in terms of packaging, etc.. But plastic recycling and the whole efforts around reducing plastic consumption and, and single use plastics, that all came from the oil industry. So the oil industry actually created that narrative, which then people jumped onto. So they fall. This is great. You know, we're going to reduce plastic. But yeah, in 2024 we produced more single use plastic than ever before.

So the race on this planet. And yet we've got rid of disposable bags and plastic and plastic straws and cutlery etc. and yet we're still producing more single use plastic than ever before. So the industry likes to, control that narrative regardless of what end of the spectrum that you're on. So it's the same.

Exactly the same with, with, food and food waste, the people that are playing a major role in creating the amount of food that's being wasted also around that table, supporting that narrative, and that goes all the way through to the food sector. You know, those people within the food sector that support the third sector that are in the commercial industry, that are also, controlling that narrative?

I won't mention names, but there are retailers that lobby government, those retailers then redistribute their surplus to certain third sector organizations. And those food sector organizations keep repeating this narrative around the rise of use of food banks and how much poverty there is in the country. So there seems to be a need for the demand, but it's all controlled by the people are in the heart of of the issue.

For me, sustainability winds me up massively because I did a speech recently in, a place up north that had a lot of people in the room that was affiliated with the, North Sea oil rigs. And I was kind of unprepared. I didn't really know the audience, but when I got to speak to people, I started realizing that they also had their own vision of sustainability.

And so they were talking about reduction of certain things and, controlling, as, you know, the oil rigs and etc., etc. and I kept thinking, but yet you're still digging up the earth and, you know, extracting oil, which then goes on to fuel cars and everything else and you can still visualize the planet, but you're kind of hanging on to this tiny little shred of hope that you are somehow achieving sustainability and sustainability for them was like

better than the previous year, not necessarily an overarching view of how they were operating and that's what it made me. I realized I just realized it's just nonsense. You know, we have these narratives that come out around, I think in 2012, when I started, there was around 15 million tonnes of food waste generated in the UK every year.

I think that's something down to like 8 million now, and people see it as a reduction of how much we're wasted, but actually we're wasting more than ever before. What's happened is, is that this more redistribution of surplus food, the found ways to commercialize it. So there's a lot of people now selling surplus food before it makes it to waste, through apps like Taco, Taco and, and other, commercial avenues for them.

I know that was one of the biggest bread producers in the UK now claims to be zero waste. And it's not because they're not waste anymore, it's because they now sell it to create animal food out of, all of their surplus rather than donating it. They found a way of making it into an income stream. So they claimed to be zero waste, but they still waste. It's just the other way that they've kind of, structured that narrative around around their waste.

And so the more you look into it, the more you actually look at the root cause of what's really going on. When you look at, I'm obviously involved massively in food waste, and I work with a lot of organizations that creative created products out of surplus. So there's people that are making bearer of surplus, making condiments out of surplus, snack foods, for example, out of surplus products. There's a, there's a drinks company that makes it out of surplus.

And I remember I was on a Google Hangout with about 50 organizations that were like startups and businesses that were using surplus in the woke Bitcoin. There was a kind of a judging panel, and that was the only person that kind of stopped and went. So just a quick question to why you guys, you know, like what happens when food waste stops tomorrow? What are you going to do for your business? And every single one of them said to me, I said, but food waste isn't going to stop tomorrow.

And it made me realize that nobody really wanted food waste to stop, but they wanted to go out and say that they were stopping food waste. And I said, but if all of this comes together and stop it, tomorrow just ends. That's it. It's gone. Surely that's a good thing. And you can close your doors and say, we don't. We're not need anymore. And every single one of them. I took a look of shock on the face, like, but what can happen to our business?

I was like, but you've created a business off the back of a problem, and if that problem is no longer there, then you know you no longer needed. That's a good thing. That's that's the way that I've built our business. If we're not needed more, I'll close the doors tomorrow and I'll say, that's it, we're done. I have no problem with that whatsoever. Yes, obviously there's issues and things that you have to deal with internally. I get all that. But you talking to companies House?

But the single goal was to put ourselves out of business and be no longer needed. And it's really, really hard because we've become so dependent upon from the public who need us and people who want us to be there because we're doing a good thing. But you've got to constantly keep telling people, remember, we're here because there's a problem and not because we want to be here. Because I want I want to create a product or service. I'm trying to focus everybody on the problem.

So when you look at sustainability as a concept, the only true form of sustainability is Mother Nature. You know, she she knows how to how to balance the planet. She knows how to create it. She knows what happens in terms of when things are no longer needed, you know, and how it gets recycled. Back into the back, into that system is a continuous loop of creation and and, destruction.

So even when you see, like wildfires and everything else that comes with it, you know, it's all there for a purpose. It's there for a reason. It might seem drastic, but it's there to create life effectively, and there is no way that we can achieve anything close to that. So when I got to businesses and they say, oh, I've created a new business that's create a product that's going to be more sustainable.

And I say to them, the only way that you can achieve those by not having the business, because then you have no company, you have no vehicles, you have no supply chain, you know, to keep making things and claiming to be sustainable sustainability. That's not how it works. You can't create a product and sell it and claim it sustainable or ethical, because you are doing a certain thing with it, because the fact that you're there means that you're not sustainable.

You know, we need to work more with nature and understand the balance of that in order to work better. Like, if we were going to do that, we'd work seasonally, you know, we wouldn't work 24 hours, you know, 3 to 6, five days a year because that's not sustainable. So it's it's hard for me sometimes to like, say to people, okay, what are you doing? It's great, but it's not sustainable because it's you've created something that wasn't needed.

And even though you're claiming to be ethical, all sustainable, it really isn't in the truest form of, of of, because that's what nature is. Unless you are completely natural and you're growing something like a farm or, you know, you, you know, you're creating something that is already naturally that in your sustaining that by supporting that mechanism as such, then that's the only way that you can be sustainable. But then even then, what happens to that product?

Where does it go? How does it get transported? Was it get stored? Is the wastage involved. And so therefore, you know, unless you were growing something and eating it yourself and supporting yourself and maybe supporting your immediate family or, you know, your immediate community, then I don't see how anything is sustainable, especially in a world of globalization.

But it's not like we've gone out there and recycled and and got rid of plastic and reduce food waste, to the sense where we're no longer producing something alongside it, which is still harming the planet. You know, like I said, where we went and got rid of plastic straws, but we then went and created more single use plastic. Never before every single pallet of any products that's shipped across the world is covered in single use clingfilm, plastic. And there's more of it than ever before.

So it's not like we've stopped doing stuff and then we've created alternatives. We're creating alternatives alongside the things that are destroying the planet. So we've just become part and parcel system.

And you look at plant based products, especially UPS, ultra processed foods, and you look at the claims that they make around sustainability and ethical and, and, and things like allergens, allergen free and some of their, you know, the ingredients that they use and how they saw some great great, fantastic. But yet we're still killing and destroying animals alongside that. And we've not reduced that by any chance. We've just basically built something alongside it.

But then you look at the systems that they're involved in and you look at the way that they store food, and then they transport food, and then they retail our commercialized food and waste as well. I mean, my shops can only accept that with loads of our promo that's gone to waste. That's because supposedly a sustainable be called products. And then next minute it's all been wasted and it's gets passed on to us to do some responsible way. But it's still a consequence of that system.

So unless we created something that isn't part of that system, which the only other solution I can see is like to be in line with nature, then I don't see how anything is sustainable whatsoever. And I yeah, I've, I've met with and traveled the world and seen companies and organizations and startups and enterprises across the world, and I've not met anybody that was come up with anybody that anything that sustainable. Because it's not in line with nature, at least in its purest form.

And therefore we may be close to that. And I understand that completely where people are trying to head towards and people say a million people doing the right thing is better than, you know, one person doing a lot of the bad things. But which is great, but it's not like we're reducing the other side of the coin. That's what that's what really gets to me is like, it's not like reproducing less meat.

We're destroying less of the planet. We're cutting down trees, etc. and then there's people over here trying to do the right thing. You know, that's not what's happening. We're just moving alongside this biome off of destruction and overproduction.

Everything else that we create on this planet alongside it, and therefore, unfortunately, if anything, some of these services and products that we create a somewhat futile because the thing alongside it, which is what we're kind of against, is still moving forward at 100 mile an hour. And it's it's scary to think how much it's still growing in a world where we're all so educated around the problems. Thank you. That's a short answer.

I just want to say I really admire everything that you've just said, everything you're putting into that. It's very much speaking my language. You know, we have to reconnect to the earth and really look at what we're doing, where it's coming from, how we're impacting that natural system.

The balance of that natural system and such wonderful insights that you bring because and the reason I say it's so admirable the way you put that, because most people would pat them on the selves on the back for all of the work that you've achieved and be saying, look how much food waste. And I think that, you know, I will cut you on the back for that, even if you won't, because it is incredible.

That part of the story is, is incredible in itself, because you are taking something that would otherwise be wasted and making sure that it gets into good hands and it's feeding people that wouldn't have that nutrition. So, you know, let's not dismiss that. But I so admire that you're going deeper and you're seeing it all holistically and looking at the system and saying, well, actually, we're producing too much food and we rarely hear this statistic.

So I'm going to kind of ask you to restate that again, that that part that, you know, we're producing more food than we need per person every day because we so rarely hear that. And I think that's because of that perpetual need for the system to keep growing. It needs to keep saying, we need more food. So if you could just re highlight that, that that point about how much is being produced. I mean that my research into it came about.

There was a question on a headline of a media outlet that was, how are we going to feed the growing population? And obviously the fact that I'm involved in waste, I was like, I don't know a minute go to waste a lot of food that could feed a percentage of that growing population. But then when you look into the stats, it's something around 6000 calories per person per day is produced on this planet that's either grown or made in products.

And it's around half of that, or around 60% of that goes towards biofuel and animal feed. And then around about 35% of it is then diverted to human beings. Approximately half of that food is around 20% of that is wasted before it even makes it to our plates. And then the food that we actually do receive, you see, in supermarkets and shops and etcetera, there is also a percentage of that that's waste as well.

So the actual amount that actually we consume as a, as a, as a global population, as direct access to any type of food is a very, very small percentage of the actual food that's produced anywhere on the planet. Because the vast amount of it is obviously biofuel and animal feed. And if you look into that process as well, regardless of beliefs, I keep saying I am vegan, but, you know, if somebody is meat. So, you know, I'm not going to tell you we're not to eat meat.

This this is based on their choice. But if you look into the meat system, if you look into how much food we grow, that then feeds animals, and then you look at the amount of land that was then needed to support that amount of, livestock. All, animal protein. And then obviously all of the animals are then killed and then turned into products or whatever shape or form.

And then if you look at how much of that burn is actually consumed of that animal protein from a global population, it's very, very small amount. So we put so much energy and resources and food and water into creating a product which we don't all then eat. You know, there's a there's a growing movement of plant based movement as, accessibility. You've got wastage, you've got transport, you've got logistics, you've got all sorts of factors involved that determine what where that food ends up.

And that's the problem with it. Then when it becomes a meat products, when it becomes a ultra processed food, meat products, what happens to it. Because you can't put it back into the ground because it was never it never came from the ground. So it needs to be destroyed or landfilled or anaerobic digestion, etcetera. So we're literally we're growing food to feed to animals, to kill them, to put them into plastic, to throw them in the bin. Now that that's that's what's happening.

So regardless of your viewpoints that there's no, kind of getting away from that fact. And that's that's what really gets to me is like, if we diverted a small percentage of the food that is grown on this planet, we could feed everybody, regardless of the size of the population. So I just don't buy into this narrative all that. There's a there's a scaremongering going on around this growing population. How are we going to feed them all when we have overproduction and overabundance of food?

And then we have wastage beyond anything we can control on this planet. It just gets moved to one place, whatever, until there's an end result, which is use landfill, I don't know, but digestion are we are we consume it. And so therefore I just feel like if there was a change further up the supply chain within the system, a small change, even a small percentage, now, if a 10% of it didn't go to the biofuel animal feed, we could feed that planet.

And for the work that I do and the type of food that we get, you know, we just diverted tons and tons of cauliflowers. I think it was 14,000 cauliflowers, about ten tonnes of cauliflowers that were that were going to waste. And we diverted them. In the UK, you know, we we have enough going to waste alone to feed everybody just from the waste that's generated in the, in this country.

So it just puts into perspective the amount of food that's available, you know, and you all you got to look at how it is. When I was younger and folks this year, you had to travel to go to a supermarket or shop. Now there is a supermarket on every single corner of every single street. And some of the supermarkets I've, I've seen in the headlines recently, trying to create a new store per week that's maybe 50 new stores, UK wide.

You know, if you look at Aldi and Lidl, for example, they're everywhere that, you know, you turn on the corner, there's now there are literally, you know, everywhere in the UK right now. And what people associate with is every single one of them is full of food and there's a new one. It gets feel that, we feel it again. So we constantly, constantly have so much food available. A lot of it goes to waste. A lot of it is consumed, a lot of it's boring and wasted.

So there isn't a problem with food and how to get access to food and how to eat out to be able to, feed a population that the problem is, is that there is a control mechanism in place to make sure that what happens to, the food that is grown goes to where it needs to grow to make as much profit as possible. Like I said, first it biofuel, then it's animal feed, and then it goes to human beings. And I just don't believe for one second that we can't feed every single person on this planet.

From what I see, both ends of the spectrum, regardless of what we see in the middle, you know, the supermarkets and shops and caterers and hotels, everything that you see that has food tech all about the equation. And the still enough food to feed everybody just from overproduction and waste, which gives you a kind of perspective of just how much is available out there. It does.

It's it's really interesting that there's such huge numbers and such an interesting perspective that you bring to that. So thank you so much. And I'd like to touch on before we finish up the the work that you do and what you've learned, because there's so much that you've shared of what you've learned about the food waste. But how about the movement forward? You've you've clearly gone through a lot. You've experienced a lot. You've seen what doesn't work.

You've said that the Real Junk Food Project was impacted by Covid, for example, and and how that changed things.

You've had a shake up more recently, I believe. What what has this all taught you about what the what the answer is? Looking forward. With regards to not being sustainable but creating something that works. Exactly. Yeah. That's the hardest thing, is because when we started the real Junior project, it was like, we're going to end food waste and feed the world. And then we started like, wow, there's like millions of people that need us right now. And we had to stop it.

And I was like, but we need to stay true to why we exist. And then and the Real Jumper project worked off a circular economy model through page, you feel. And people just didn't understand that concept.

You know, we live in a world where we had a concept of government, we had austerity, we had a war in Ukraine, we had, a cost of living crisis, etc.. So when you're trying to educate people around circular economy, you know, give back time, money and skills and in return for food, unfortunately, people had needs and didn't maybe understand the true value of food, but understand the price of food. And that was really, really difficult for nearly ten years to get that across.

That didn't quite work in that concept. And even though I did amazing things and fed millions and started lots of grassroots organizations across the UK, in Europe, we had to change the model to one, become financially sustainable because we couldn't do it without that, and always having to beg and borrow to to be able to get through the next month. And then we had to create something that was about dignity as well.

So we took surplus food, we placed a price on it, and people were more willing to pay for it than they were to come and get it, potentially for free, which was really, really, really interesting from my perspective psychologically, because we were trying to give things away that had a high value that people wouldn't take because it was like, leave it for somebody else that needs it. And as soon as I put a nominal fee on it, whether it was like £0.10, people came on board, loads of it.

So it was really, really interesting. It's like, well, this is what people want to pay for. Stuff like they don't want it for free, which is really, really interesting kind of psyche into kind of like human psychology of consumerism and that whole kind of narrative around, food waste should be used to feed poor people. Where I've gone on for years and years and said, we need to separate the two. Food waste has nothing to do with poverty and vice versa.

Poverty is a political thing that could change it tomorrow. Food waste is and you can't just end it tomorrow. It's it's so complex and vast and a lot of stakeholders need to bring up table. So we just created a model that was like how can we create dignity, price up food, which meant we could be sustainable and be there for people that needed it as whilst also providing a service.

So we started to change our thinking towards that of going actually, if we had shops and supermarkets, all of the UK that people used daily for everything and you know, we've got things like fruit and veg, frozen products, bakery, ambient goods, toys, we get household products, cleaning products, you name it. And they could come to us instead of going to the supermarkets.

Could we potentially grow big enough to start challenging the supermarkets from a social enterprise perspective on that invests and empowers volunteers into positions of employment, pays a living wage, everything goes back into the organization of the community rather than going to shareholders or, you know, those pockets and is there is a room for that.

And if there is and it's dependent upon surplus, then we have to make sure that we control that narrative in the sense where, yes, there is a problem. Yes, I've been saying, you know, we should be creating companies off the back of problems, but if we could shift supply and demand away from the big six, the retailers into something that was much more focused into the community is plenty. It's climate change, all of all of that stuff.

Then maybe there's a need for us and maybe there's a way that we can make the system a bit more responsible and sustainable in the sense that if there is an abundance of waste, then we'll deal with it responsibly as we can. We'll make sure that everybody has access to it, in a way that they can afford it with a sense of dignity without having to queue up and kind of justify who they are as a human being.

And, you know, you can stand shoulder to shoulder with somebody who is, you know, in need or vulnerable and then the person next to you as a big flash forward by far outside. And it was completely irrelevant to us because it was like, this is just about stopping waste. And about giving people that dignity and the opportunity to have access to food, because it should be, I believe food should be free to everybody, no matter what. But we can't do that.

And we can't sustainably allow ourselves to keep growing and pay wages and, you know, pay for the van and the fuel. Everything that comes with the cost of running a project whilst giving stuff away. So we have to come up with something that was what people wanted and we trialed all sorts of things, pre-COVID, during Covid and then post Covid, lots of different models.

You know, at one point we weren't allowed to go near each other by two meters or whatever it was, and people were not allowed to go out to homes and stuff. So we had to come up with concepts that work towards, matching those needs. And it just grew and developed. And we kept asking people, what do you want? Do you want a box of food that we delivered to your house for free, or do you want us to, you know, we random stuff that you might not use?

Or do you want us to want to come into a shop where you can fill a box or whatever you want to, to pay £10, but sometimes it might not be anything there, so you might might waste a trip. And then we got to the point was like, well, if we if you pay for it. We'll guarantee that we'll always have everything because we can go out and find it, potentially even cover some of the cost for it.

As I'm speaking to you now, I've just been offered two lorries, one full of ice cream and one full of ambient products, literally just on my emails now. And it's like, we'll go out and find it because we can cover the cost of those two lorries, and those two lorries might cost us like five, £600.

But because you've paid for this and we've got that reserve to be able to do that, we'll go out and find more products and keeping them in and stopping waste and providing you with more, more, products and services that you need. And so that's why I said, as members came into it was like, well, that's seems like a more, dare I say, sustainable way of building a business off the back of a problem. In a world where I, you know, argue against it passionately argue against that.

We shouldn't have companies like us around, but there is a need and a space for us right now to do what we do until there comes a time where we're not needed or we are needed to the point where we have to sit around that table and play a major part in the discussion around food and food, accessibility and supply chain management, production and seasonality, and sustainability.

Everything that's involved in food, we need to be sat on that table and and say, look, you know, we may have millions of people accessing us on a daily basis. And so therefore, you may need to look at how you support these kind of much more local, sustainable, food systems that are much about the communities rather than about the shareholders.

And, you know, maybe even then we'll have a huge reduction in waste, because if we can shift supply and demand away from the retailers, they're going to start to need to look at how they access food and how they supply food. And the wastage, you know, they won't be able to afford to have so much waste in their systems if a lot less people are shopping with them because there was an alternative. And I just think right now in this world, there isn't an alternative for people.

You either go to one supermarket or the other. So we want to become part of that alternative if possible, and create a whole new ecosystem. And I'm not saying it has to just be in step with the purpose. We want to collaborate and share and support other organizations, working co-operatives, local grocers, etc. you know, to create those kind of local food economies and sustainable ecosystems, we want to be part of that world where we're not massively dependent on a massive 24 hour supermarket.

Fantastic. Thank you so much. It your passion and your, dedication come through so clearly. And the work that you're doing is phenomenal. All I think the scale that you've achieved and the, the drive that you have to keep pushing on and in going past the obstacles is, is is wonderful. So congrats for everything you've done. Thank you for sharing.

And if you could leave us with maybe a few bits and pieces because we I know that you've got so many resources out there, so much information about the work that you've done. If there's a few bits you'd like to highlight, please, please go ahead. Yeah. I mean, the, the shop for us is obviously fundamental to what we do. We have a, a little shop now. We used to have a big shop. We have a little shop now in Bradford, which, supports a local community, but you can purchase online from us.

You can volunteer with us, you can volunteer as part of a kind of corporate death or within your work group, as well. And that's all done through, through our website. And, you know, we've we've got an amazing community now of about 50 staff and volunteers that work there seven days a week, also our suppliers as well. So we travel nationally and European wide to get access to surplus stock. And it doesn't just have to be food, it can be absolutely anything.

You know, we we deal with toys and household products and everything you can think of really. And you know, we're just there to work with people to, to support them when there's a time where stock is difficult to manage. And, you know, we'll do something as responsibly as we can with it. We've got a great social media presence and, but we're also sensitive as well. So things need to be done, sometimes out of public view, which we're very good at.

And we have to deal with a lot of that for different reasons, then we can do that as well. So yeah, we, we we're very, very good at what we do. We've been doing it a long time now. Yeah. So people want to get in touch, are involved and they come do simply for our website and they can find out how, they can support us, but also how we can work with them as well. Thank you. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for spending this time with us and sharing. It's been really very insightful.

And, I'll let you get back to the important work, checking on the lorries and, keeping things moving and, but thank you very much. Thanks for having me, Helen Chase. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check the description for the links to learn more and engage with the work from Adam and Surplus to Purpose, Adam has shared much about his inspirational story over the years, so you'll find plenty of resources for getting to know him more. Don't forget to subscribe to keep up to date.

I'm Helen Fisher, this is we are carbon. And let's keep figuring this all out together.