People have now got a relationship with their computers, with their phones. Instead of relating to the person in front of us, we relate with the fantasy we have of that person in our heads. And I worry about that. You talked about sort of social contagion. People seem to want a diagnosis for things or a or a label to give things. I don't think we are any better since we've had this whole plethora of labels. Talking about ADHD and what we call neurodiversity.
Social anxiety. We used to call it shy. Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World. I'm Krishna Guru Murphy, and this is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have helped shape them. My guest today is a psychotherapist, broadcaster, agony aunt and best selling author who helps people untangle their inner lives with wit and wisdom.
You may know Philippa Perry from her bestseller The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read, her TV appearances alongside her artist husband Grayson Perry, or from her widely read advice columns where she explores everything from family dynamics and emotional resilience to the ways we connect, or fail to connect rather, with the people closest to us. Philippa, welcome. Thank you for having me. If you could change the world, how would you change it?
That's a very big question. You know, when people write to me on my column, they come with very specific questions like how can I get on with my mother-in-law better? And sometimes I think that how we change the world is in this these microscopic ways because if we are, say, kind and give our mother-in-law the benefit of the doubt, that will change the world in a very tiny way, which might then have repercussions. It might be a Pebble in the pond, but how to change the
world? That's a big one. I mean, it's a bit like saying how do you change human nature or how to change the planetary systems or? Did you think we are getting better or worse at relationships, as you know, as a species, or is it that we talk about the problems more or that we are actually getting? Worse, we talk about problems more, and I think there's an element of social contagion in that, in that people think, oh,
I've got that too. So I'm not sure whether talking about it more is making it better. Are we getting better or worse relationships? I'd say some of us are getting better and a lot of us are getting worse. And where we're getting worse is that people have now got a relationship with their computers, with their phones, with their video games. And I think sometimes it feels easier to have an evening in with your screens playing Fortnite or whatever it is you
play. Then it is sort of going to an event where you'll you'll go into a room and you may only know two people and they're busy. And I think people will do what's easiest. And that can happen to anyone, can't it happen to? Anyone. Yeah. Of. Course, yeah, people will do what's easiest. So it's easier maybe to do quasi socialising online than it is to do real socialising.
And I worry about that because I think we need to keep flexing our social muscle in real life because as we found out in the lockdowns, if we don't flex it, it atrophies and we become shyer and we become less tolerant of that awkwardness. When you go into the room, you don't think you know anyone. It took me a while to build up resilience again after lockdown. I was so looking forward to the first event, which I think was a book launch I was going to after lockdown.
I was so looking forward to it. I thought I'm not going to drink because I want to remember every little bit of it. And I lasted 45 minutes. It was completely overwhelming. I, I, I couldn't cope. I was so overstimulated after 45 minutes I just had to go for a walk. And it took me months until I was comfortable flexing my
social muscle again. And I, I know what that experience was like for me. So imagine a young person who it was locked down, say, during their university years when they should have been really learning. Yeah, and therefore doesn't really know what flexing socialism. Is I knew at least I had a
groove I could get back into. But if you haven't formed that groove and this makes me worry about some young people and relationships, but all people actually, not just young people because I think when we're face to face with someone, it's harder to have a fantasy about them because what we tend to do is instead of relating to the person in front of us, we relate with the fantasy we have of that person in our heads and that
makes us go further apart. And if you talk about how do you change the world, well, perhaps we have a fantasy about our enemies as well, rather than getting to know them. And then we are fighting the demons in our heads and we're thinking that there are enemy out there. What sort of things should we do then?
I mean, you know, if you, if you are that young person who hasn't got a history of remembering what it was like to socialize normally, if you like and and you're suddenly sort of your post pandemic, you're locked in your phone and your devices and you're in an office, you know, what do you do? You feel the fear and do it anyway. You, you can't get over the awkwardness. You can't get over how unpleasant it feels to feel awkward, to feel that everybody else has got this except for
you. Because what we tend to do is we judge our inner world, how we feel inside ourselves by by comparing it with people's external world. So I go into a room and I see you looking very competent and chatting like to a lot of people. And I think, oh, Chris has really got this. And I can't do that. But you know, for all I know you're going, oh God, I don't know what to say. You know as well. So do. You think we should be forced to speak to people rather than text
them? I don't think we should be forced. I have a daughter who, you know, who hates being on the phone and she'd much rather text. And I kind of go, no, no, no, you've got to speak. I think if you speak, there's the if you, if you see somebody face to face, there's less room for making assumptions that are wrong. If you speak to someone on the phone, there's more. You can't read somebody's face, but you can hear their tone. So, you know, there's more, more
chance of getting it wrong. And if you text, well, it's just practically a fantasy that you're having with the other person because you can't read what they're saying. I mean, how many misunderstandings have you had with a text message? And e-mail same. Thing. Yeah, yeah. But that that's a very modern problem, isn't it? Because people are communicating much more by text than face to face. I expect it is, yeah.
You talked about sort of social contagion and people, you know, wanting or or saying I've got that too. Yeah. I mean, you've, you've written about this as well, haven't you, That, that people kind of seem to want a diagnosis for things or, or a label to give. I don't think that many of the, oh, I've got to be so careful what I say because people get very upset because their labels
are part of their identity. And I don't want to rub out anybody's identity, but I don't think we are any better since we've had this whole plethora of labels. I don't think it's making us any better. I think what people are doing are putting themselves in boxes and thinking I've got that and then that's a full stop. Whereas if you go, I feel like this and I have this experience, you can then work on all. How can I make that experience
work for me or be better for me? What sort of things are you talking about? You talking about ADHD? What we call social anxiety, we used to call it shy social anxiety. Anything with disorder or syndrome I'm a little bit sceptical about because as Doctor Simi IMI said in his book Searching for Normal, if you put disorder behind word, it makes it sound like it's a proper thing, but it's nothing you can see under the microscope.
It's, it's just a set of behaviours that people have have clubbed together and decided it's a thing. I mean, a lot of the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, the DSM, the, the, the big fat textbooks that psychiatrists use was sort of made-up by a group of about 12 men that would do 4 disorders before lunch and maybe 3 or 4 after lunch as well. I think it was like 12 men and one woman coming up with all these terms for things that go in and out of fashion.
Like homosexuality was in the book to start with. And you know, things go in and out of fashion because there isn't any. Proper evidence So. So why do you think people are often so pleased to be diagnosed with something? Because it makes sense of how they feel and it's a a sort of story in a judgement. And sometimes I think it might be an excuse as well. For what? For putting my keys in the
fridge, right? Which I have done on occasions and so if that explains that behaviour then I feel like I'm not the only one who puts their keys in the fridge when they should have put them on the peg by the door. So does this stop us taking responsibility for our own? Behaviour. I'm worried about that, yeah, I'm, I'm worried that it does. And it it's, I mean, I don't know, I mean. It's funny you you said. You've got to be very careful what you're saying.
And I can feel your tension almost. Because. Because I got. Why are you so worried about that? I got cancelled last time. Why? What happened? Well, I I talked a bit about one particular diagnosis and I thought it was being overused. And then people with that diagnosis, I had a pile on on social media and said I'm not going to buy her books anymore. But did it make you think you were wrong? It made me think I was wrong in the way I did it.
I don't think I was wrong to go. Shall we not question these diagnosis a bit? And This is why it's so great that people are now, people that know about these things better than me, are talking a lot more about overdiagnosis, and I'm very pleased that that is happening. Because there are. What are the consequences of overdiagnosis? Because I mean, this is an argument that sort of spreads way beyond the sort of the, you know, the, the pages of a, of an agony aunt, you know, in a
newspaper. I mean, it's about the NHS and resources and benefits and government and all those sorts of things. I mean, is this a much bigger issue? Actually, if you give a child, say, a label, they think and they think there's something wrong with them. It sort of comes down on them like a judgement sometimes. And then if we have a judgement,
that's like a full stop. And if we don't have a judgement, then we can explore and we can go on to, you know, finding good coping mechanisms or, or growing out of things. But if you've got a label, you might believe you're incapable of growing out of something or or growing through it. Is is there such a thing as normal or or is normal in fact a range of behaviours? It's very interesting. I wrote a book called How to Stay Sane.
When I was researching for that book, I found thousands of definitions of insanity, ways of being abnormal. I didn't find one definition of normal and what you can do with all those definitions. You could roughly divide them into two, and one is leaning towards chaos and the other is leaning towards rigidity. And I thought, well, maybe the definition of normal or sane is somewhere between the two, you know, and I'd like to call it flexible.
So that means that you're not chaotic and all over the place, but on the other hand your notes not so rigid that you can't change a plan if you know something external happens. So I think of normal and sanity as the ability to organise your life but not over organise it. Be able to respond in the moment, but not be in a perpetual state of drama and chaos. So, so, but are we creating problems as well in, in the workplace, in in, in healthcare with the use of these? I'm worried about it.
I've got a friend who is an employer. She's runs a large publishing house and she takes graduates, very clever graduates in as you know, trainee editors and things. And they do very well in interview. And then once they've done their three months of whatever it is before you've got your employment contract, then they have, then they get a diagnosis of ADHD and then they go, it's not my fault if I'm late because I've got, I've got this diagnosis.
So you're discriminating against me if I, if you sack me for being late, I mean. This is a very common tale amongst employers and managers now, but it's it's seen as sort of dreadful, unsympathetic. Yeah, and I behaviour and I think as well there are, you know, there's people that's that are really mentally unwell. They're climbing up the walls. They're bashing their head against the wall.
They're screaming. And there are people who find it difficult, more difficult than than others to, say, organize their life. You know, they're a bit on the chaotic spectrum. The trouble is they're taking up the resources from people who, you know, can't leave their room without collapsing or screaming or hurting themselves. So I feel like it's putting an off. All these labels are putting a huge strain on the NHS. Do you? Think we need to toughen up?
Don't like toughen up as a word? I think we need a different way of thinking about it rather than diagnosis. I I want to be sympathetic to people that are, are are having difficulties, but I'm not sure that putting them in a box and saying this means that is the way to do it. Do you think we as a as, as a society respond to, you know, what's going on outside in terms of our personal happiness?
A lot. You know, we're going through a very, very chaotic phase in the world at the moment, wars in the Middle East, Ukraine, Africa, and and that's encroaching on British politics and the conversation and social media a lot. Does that 'cause people to be
unhappy and anxious and. We've always found things to be unhappy and anxious about and whatever period we are in history, it seems to me that we're not very good at remembering that quote of you've never had it so good because, you know, if it, if it was, you know, it used to be the Cuban missile crisis. It used to be the Cold War. I mean, that was terrifying, the Cold War when we thought any minute now we would have to hide under the table. Why when a, a nuclear bomb went off.
And now we are worried about, you know, these wars escalating and, and travelling all over the world and, and affecting everyone. And we are devastated about people starving because some cruel people won't let them get the food. It is devastating. But I think if we've got the capacity to be miserable, we will find an outside justification for that misery.
So I think our misery and our happiness is sort of internal to quite an extent, and then we find an object external to ourselves to put it on. So we are the miserable ones, but we're looking for something to be miserable about. Yes. What? Why? Why do we do that Well, And is it all of us, or is it just some of us? Oh, I think it is more or less all of us. I think you are to blame actually.
With your yeah, catastrophizing. It's if you can find the most catastrophizing headline that is the one we're going to click on because we'll get more emotional movement from something that's horrific. I mean, the the reason that the dog on the skateboard stories happen at the very end is that they're never going to grab someone to start watching the news with that. Why? Why do we have that negativity bias?
Because it's, it's, it's sort of, I think it's because we are wired to look for ginger because there we are, you know, in the, in the, in the desert, in the Seren, whatever it was called. The Serengeti. That's. The one there we are in the Serengeti, this is where we've evolved from and it's no good looking out for the pretty flowers. We've got to look out for when the pack of lions is coming down on us. We've got to look out for people that and animals that see us as
easy meat. So we are wired to look for danger. But in a walking here along Grazing Rd., nobody was going to jump me, you know, Not in broad daylight anyway. So we so we need to adapt to. So, so I'm looking out for the headlines or I'm, you know, scrolling, looking for, we're still looking for danger because that's what we're sort of evolved to do. That's how we have survived. That's how we have evolved. So we are wired to look for danger.
We don't look for the happy stories because the happy stories aren't a threat. And if we don't look out for threats, then maybe it will be dangerous. And do you find yourself looking out for danger evolved to a higher plane? I'm not saying it's a higher plane, but I've got very low tolerance for bad news, so I tend to get my news from looking at Have I got news for you or? So you've you've become a news avoider. I am a news and do you think? News avoidance is a good state
to be in then as a result. For your, I can't speak for other people, but I know I get over stimulated by it and frustrated that it's talking about terrible things that I feel powerless to do anything about. And there's two sorts of worry. There's productive worry when we think about something problem solve, and there's neurotic worry that goes round and round in circles and just makes us
miserable. And I think if I listened or watched too much news, I'd get stuck in a neurotic worry cycle. I could worry about it, but what could I do about it? So what? Why? Why don't? Why am I able to exist in the world in which it doesn't bring me down but. Because some of us are orchids and some of us are dandelions, and an orchid needs special soil, special climate in order to thrive. And it doesn't hasn't got that
it it won't thrive. A dandelion can come up in the crack in the pavement and thrive. And we need both types. You're calling me a Hardy weed? We need Hardy weeds. We need both types. And the other thing is, I think you probably feel like you have a purpose when you're doing the news. You know, you've, there's a reason why you're telling us the news. You're informing us you're, you're doing a sort of a useful job. I don't know if I can be that useful if I listen to it, but
I'm sure other people can. Other people can decide to go on a March about it or or feel like they're doing something too. You do that, don't you? I mean you. You demonstrate about things. I do demonstrate sometimes. I demonstrated against the Iran Iraq war Fat lot of good that did, but it made me feel useful for a day maybe. Well, what? Yes, So what? So what is demonstration about making you feel better? Or do you think it makes a difference?
I don't know, but it does make one feel like you're doing something so it doesn't feel so hopeless. So it's a good thing to do regardless. It's a nice day out, nice day out with your friends. When was your last nice day out to demonstrate? Oh, when I was I'm demonstrating against the Observer being taken over by Tortoise Media, right? I waved a placard. And why were you so against that? Because I didn't understand the deal.
I didn't understand why. It's looked to me like the Guardian were giving away a part of the paper that was actually not losing any money, but they weren't investing in it and they had the funds to invest in it, so it could have done better. And I also did not understand how Tortoise Media were going to do it properly. And I didn't understand who half the backers were. And and do you, do you still feel the same way about it now that? I do, yeah. Because you.
Because you, you've, you know, that was the sort of end of view on the newspaper. I was going to move with them. Oh, right. But I, I was, I got, I said those things I've just told you in public and I was summoned to the headmaster's office, or so it felt like. And I was told we're going to hold your column this week until you and I have had a little chat come into my office. And I thought, I don't get, I'm I'm 67.
You can't. You can't summon me into the headmaster's office and give me a telling off. So I said you can telephone me if you want. And if you hold my column this week, which was all ready to go on the page, if you hold my column this week, I will walk. And I walked across the street to Substack, where I've been very happily esconced ever since. And do you think Substack, which is which is really interesting.
I mean, you know, people are building big communities and getting people to pay to read their stuff. I don't know what you know, how how it's going for you yet. But I mean, do you think that is a replacement for newspapers? Well, the consumer can decide precisely who they read. So if something. That's good and bad, isn't it?
Yes, it's good and bad. So if somebody used to get the Observer, because I was in the back of the magazine and that was their favorite bit and they bought that, they also got some very good recipes and some World News and some opinions, but they might not have wanted that. Now they just get what they pay for. Yeah, what they want. They can hone in on individual contributors, as it were.
But. It isn't that also in the same way as social media kind of going to build hyper engaged communities around particular ideas, movements which some of which may be completely bonkers, yeah. Better society may have a substance, I don't know, but if people are interested in psychology and how people solve their problems then they can subscribe to. Me, yes. And, and do you know, do you think social media is as bad for our mental health as a lot of
people do? Somebody suggested that all social media platforms should shut down at 7:00 every night until the following. Morning so people can watch Channel 4 News. Yeah. But I thought that was such a genius idea. Do you remember when the television used to go off at, you know what, it was midnight or something? And I just thought that is such a good idea. We should have no X or Facebook or anything after. Let's be more flexible, 8:00 at night.
I just thought that was such a great idea, obviously impractical. Do I think I think it's good in some ways. I mean, I think I've made friends through social media that I wouldn't otherwise have met. The other thing is, if you meet someone enough to vent and you swap Instagram pages or something, you can keep in touch with them or get in touch with them in a very sort of informal way.
But you've you've, you've, you know, in this conversation you should have admitted how you feel a bit policed by us as well, by the by the threat of being cancelled. Yeah, that's not very good for you, saying what you think, is it? Some people are braver than me and they say what they think anyway and I've got huge admiration for them. But what I did was I just didn't go on it for a month, Just peep in. Oh, they've forgotten about me. I can come back in do.
You think that's the answer generally? I don't know. Sort of. I think some people aren't going to change their mind, whatever you say, and so it might be best just not to bother say it. That that can also be true of very close personal relationships, can't it? And you've written about parents and children. Yeah, I have. Quite a lot. Now, one of the things, you know, one of the themes, I suppose, of your advice is to communicate, Yeah, between parents and, you know, between
generations. Yeah. You know, a lot of parents struggle with children who you know don't want to communicate. They when you when you ask them how they feel, when you say children talk to them and they don't want. To children are born wanting to communicate. And you, you, you have a baby of about 3 months on your knee like that and you naturally begin turn taking, yeah, you know, they'll stick out their tongue and then you will find yourself mirroring that.
And you play this game of swapping facial expressions, rhythm of looking away, looking back. And that develops into people and children are born wanting this contact, wanting to communicate. And if we have the time to put in and talk to them all the time, they won't suddenly want to stop. But if we haven't done that and then we suddenly want them to talk to us, we've we've got to learn to listen first. So it's so it's not that kids get to about 16 and just decide.
They Oh yeah, they do at 16. At six, they don't. Yeah, I don't want to talk a little. Bit older, I mean, oh, 16 is that is delightful because what happens when a child hits puberty and adolescence is that they are biologically programmed to sort of want to separate from the family of origin and find their new tribe. And in order to do that, sometimes they they haven't got the skills to sort of distance politely. So it's not I hate you, you know, the typical Kevin and
Perry speech. I hate you and what that's about is they don't hate you but they need to hate you in the moment so that they can find their own tribe otherwise they'd be comfy forever. And they are going to live longer than us so it's not safe for them to be just stuck in the family of origin forever. They have to find a tribe, another tribe to join that's their age, that they can form a community with and find a mate from.
And then when they have got that tribe, you know, when they do come back from university and they have got a girlfriend or a boyfriend or a partner or whatever, then they're really nice again and they've forgotten all about, oh, hey, you. They've forgotten about how to do. That so it's just hang in there. It's just hang in there and and what happened when my daughter aged about 14, she told me to F off and you know, me all knowing PR JS stages of development and
things like that. I was so pleased I went, Oh darling, you're separating. Which wasn't the wasn't the most tactful thing I could have said, because it infuriated her even further. I had AI had a similar moment. I remember when my son was 18 months old and he he he bent down to pick something up and then got up and banged his head on the door knob and rubbed his head and said oh shit. And I thought he's very advanced. Yeah, brilliant. Oh shit, he's also he's got self
soothing down to AT there. Beautiful. I just wanted to ask you finally about about being Lady Perry. Oh yes, which? Is what you are now I'm doctor Lady Perry or Lady? Or am I? Lady Doctor, A lady doctor? Sounds like I want to look at your bits, doesn't it? So, no. So. Doctor. Lady So. How, how do you feel about, I mean, people normally ask you about, you know, what's it like
being married to a transvestite? I sort of wanted to ask you about sort of what's it like getting a title because your husband got got the knighthood? Makes admin really difficult, like you've got miss misses any other title and so admins are difficult. What what else? It hasn't really made much difference. Do you use it? Do you use it on? Do you use airline tickets and restaurant reservations and. No, I don't use it on restaurants, reservations,
airline tickets. Well, I think it's on my credit card my my bank card. So I probably is on an airline ticket, yes, and that that's quite useful because I said, would you like a glass of champagne, Lady Perry? So that is quite. I quite like that do. Do you feel you're sort of more establishment than you perhaps would have been comfortable with 20 years ago? Oh, it's a very nice place to be establishment, as you well know.
Well, yeah, of course I like total hands up, but you know, you're you're one step ahead, aren't you? I mean you I. Don't feel like I'm one step ahead. I mean if. I'm more than one step ahead because, I mean, you're already sort of, you're already the darlings of the establishment and you're invited to every wonderful party everywhere. Now you've got the titles as well. I don't think it makes any difference really. I think it is is. I don't think going from miss to
misses made any difference. I don't think going from misses to ladies. Do do you mean that about the establishment though? That it's nice to be part of. Oh, it's lovely because I do enjoy going to parties and if you want to be a little bit naughty and push against, it's much easier to do that from the inside than it is from the outside. Yes, we do get invited to things
and it it's very nice. But I think I also get invited to things because I've got a best selling book, so it's very nice to be invited to Booker events and things like that. But I think as you get older and you get known in your profession, I think this happens to a lot of people. And so and So what? What's next? Because like your career, you've been a bit of not a late starter, but a late. No, I'm a late starter.
I'm a really late starter because I was terrible at school, not academic at all, couldn't spell, still can't spell. And when I was at school, things like spelling mattered because I'm 67, so I was at school in the 60s. And so they wanted you to spell more than express yourself. So I did really badly at school and then I never took myself seriously at work. I sort of like, I didn't have a career. I had jobs and then I was lucky enough to inherit some money so
I could go to art school. And at art school I was much older than the other students. So I spent my time being a bit of a cougar, which was quite fun. And then then what happened? Oh yeah. Then my first marriage, see above, my first marriage failed and and then I met Grayson and that's gone very well. And I think when we had a child, time becomes so precious that you want to spend it so it counts. You have so little free time because you're going most of the
time with the baby. And so that's when I trained to be a psychotherapist and start to take work seriously. So I was a really late starter. I, I, I don't think am I, I don't think I started taking clients till I was 38. And I suppose you've become famous in your 60s. I came, I wrote my first book in my 50s, which was called Couch Fiction. And that was like a calling card. It was about psychotherapy. It, it was a graphic novel about psychotherapy.
And that became a calling card. So then I became a, what is known as, I think, as a lifestyle journalist, which meant that I then got a job on Red Magazine as an agony aunt. And, you know, this was my calling. I absolutely loved it. And then I moved on to the Observer. So I didn't start doing anything in public until I was in my 50s, you know, writing books and things. So I'm a really late start.
And do you think being a psychotherapist is the thing that makes you qualify to be an agony aunt? Or would you have been an agony aunt anyway? The. Thing that makes you qualify to be an agony aunt is being a good writer because you are. You want to get the reader's attention and you want to keep it. And so I think there are some very good agony aunts that are just excellent writers. Graham Norton, for instance, or, you know, people like that.
And I think they just offer something different. It's another person's point of view, the fact that I am a qualified psychotherapist. I don't know if that that gives me a little bit more weight. I have a little bit more background to draw on for my answers and. And do you feel sure about your answers or do you or do you think I might be getting this wrong? Yeah, I do. I think I might be getting this wrong. I think if I felt sure about my
answers, I'd be in big trouble. Because I let you know when you've got it wrong. Do they write to you and say, well, I did what you said and. No what my? Husband left me. Can't help that, I'm afraid. What I usually do is I have some correspondence with the person whose letter I'm going to use, and I go, this strikes me like that, Does that fit for you? And they go, no, it's not like that at all. And they put me right. I go, oh, so we have a little bit. Of. Yeah, usually.
Sometimes I just get straight in there but. So what we read is sort of the end of a process. Yeah, quite often, yeah. And do people stay in touch? Yes, some of them do, yeah. And is that is it always positive or do you get, I mean like do people? Yeah, it's usually positive. Yes, it's usually positive. I mean, I had a wonderful one of a woman who wrote to me who had
just four months to live. You know, she'd got advanced stage cancer and she wanted to know whether she should leave a manual for her husband's next wife. You know, would it be bad for me to write this manual? And I just thought, this is what you want to do, Do it. And it made a wonderful column because it was mostly her sort of working stuff out. And I only wrote a very little bit going. You go, girl, you're teaching us
everything. So quite often my columns are actually written by the people that write in. It's the easiest job in the world. It's half done by the public. And what was wonderful about that is that I kept in touch not only with her, but with the Hospice and her husband as well for a while. Her widower, Yeah. So there's things like that that I'll I'll remember because they, they touched me. Well, and people can get a hold of you on Substack now.
They can get a hold of me on substackaskphilippa@yahoo.com as well. Great. Well, thank you very much indeed for coming in and telling us all about it. Thank you. Philippa Perry, Lady Doctor. Philippa Perry. That's right. Thank you very much for sharing your way to. Thank you. Thank you for having me. That's it for this episode of Where to Change the World. You can watch all of these interviews on the Channel 4 News YouTube channel. Until next time, bye bye.