Is This Really the Chrome Killer?

Hey, everyone. It's Nealai Patel, editor-in-chief of The Verge and host of Decoder, my show about big ideas and other problems. We have a special exclusive episode for you that we're really excited about. It's an interview with Google CEO Sundar Pichai.

I sat down with Sundart during the Google I.O. developer conference this year to talk about all of the company's major AI news, as well as the state of the industry, the future of the web, and Google's ongoing antitrust trials. There's a lot going on in this one. I think you're really going to like it.

Check out Decoder wherever you get your podcasts. This is Peter Kafka, the host of Channels, the show about what happens when media and tech collide. And this week I'm talking to Katie Drummond, who runs Wired. She's found a way to breathe new life into that publication by covering news. We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around.

and was like where is everyone else that's this week on channels wherever you listen to your favorite podcast i mean you don't you don't bet in blackjack but yeah you do You don't pick an amount and say, I'm betting this much. Yes, you do. That is exactly how you play Blackjack. I like to just play until you're like, no, I want to stop. And then when you decide you stop. Every single hand, you put more money down. And you say, I am putting this much money.

Oh, then never mind. Yo, what is up, people of the internet? Welcome back to another episode of the Waveform Podcast. We're your hosts. I'm Marquez. I'm Andrew. And I'm David. And okay, this week we've got a hilarious Pixel 10 leak. It's happening again. We're back. We're back. The cycle repeats itself every year. But we also have a really impressive and funny Dyson product. And also we've got the CEO of the browser company joining us later in this episode to help us figure out what's going on.

with Arc and the wide world of browsers, because there's a lot happening. But first, I just want to thank you guys for subscribing. This is a subscriber-only episode. We fixed the bug from last week where non-subscribers could watch, so we appreciate you. Thanks for tuning in. If you're watching, you are subscribed.

Hopefully that bug doesn't happen again. Also, there's a quick survey we want to ask you to fill out. If you have some time, the podcast network we're a part of, Vox, is looking to figure out some extra information about...

what's working well in the podcast space, what's not, what you like about Waveform, what you don't. So we'll have a link in the description if you have some time and you want to check that out and be super helpful to the rest of the podcasts on our network. So thank you for that. Anyway. We should jump right in. Andrew has a tech support question. Okay, I do. I kind of want to chime in too, but I'll let you break it down. Okay, cool. Ever since I've updated to One UI 7.

I think I mentioned briefly that I have really been enjoying. Which phone do you have, by the way? S24. Regular S24. Regular S24. Okay. So I've been enjoying One UI 7. I did do the notifications change, so they're all together.

I don't love the vertical scrolling app drawer. I was really used to my pages. I know you can do it, but then it takes them out of alphabetical order. Anyways, I've been enjoying it, but I've been having this issue for like the last two weeks. My wireless charger at home overnight. I keep waking up at like 20% battery and I cannot tell exactly what's going on. You didn't get fully refreshed when you slept?

No, yeah. My eight sleep is just like, maybe you should try falling asleep. Only a 20% charge. My phone, I put it on. Right. The same charger I've been using since before I've had this phone. It has always worked every single night because I have a MagSafe case and it's a MagSafe charger. So I don't have to worry about it getting knocked off the charger at all. I put it on.

And I fall asleep and I wake up and it's not charged. And it doesn't happen every night, but I would say in the last week, five of the nights. That's bad. It's really bad. That's five sevens. Yeah. In fact, the last two nights I've gotten it because I've put it on the charger.

sometimes it says it's charging and then like within the next 30 seconds it'll stop charging which I think is what's happened a couple times the last few nights I've put it on and like watched it like a hawk and then like we'll watch a youtube video and then i'll tap it and make sure it's still charging and then i'll go to sleep knowing it'll Then I wake up at 100%. That's anxiety inducing. It's horrible. So if you had just told me this story in isolation.

I would have gone, I don't know, I think something just might be wrong with your phone. Something probably just went loose in the back and maybe you need to have it repaired or something like that. But I've also been daily driving a Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra. I also updated to One UI with the latest software update.

And I also lately have started having more times that I wake up and my phone hasn't charged. And I also have a bedside wireless charger. It's kind of annoying that there's no wires. So I some phones that I test don't have wireless charging and I'm just. whatever but i have a wireless charger next to my bed so i put the phone on the wireless charger and i usually do a pretty good job of placing it right where i know the wireless charging coil is and then i wake up and it's charged

And probably two out of the last five nights, it hasn't, especially the last two in a row. And that, to me... is more than a coincidence that we both have a Samsung phone. We just both updated the software and yours can't be an alignment issue because you have the magnets. Yeah. And so I would have thought mine is just a coincidental alignment issue, but now I'm starting to try to think deeper. It's weird. I haven't tried with too many other chargers. I tried with our Ridge Power Bank, and...

It like wasn't working and then I kind of got it to work a little bit. That may have been a pre-production unit, so I'm not 100% sure. Maybe the power bank was just like being a little weird. I have one of those like Nomad full desk ones. And when I put it on that where it's like completely covered, it seems to work every time. So it's enough of an issue where I think like it could be user error somewhere. It just feels so weird that a charger with two magnets, that's literal only purpose.

is to make sure it's not knocked off that has worked for me for over a year i update and then it stops working i think what we should do because two is still not a huge sample size i think we should pass this on to the audience anyone who has been washing dishes listening to this if you've also had this happen if you have a samsung phone with the latest software update and have started having wireless charging issues

Let us know in the comments section. I will say David's searching it right now. I'm using AI mode. I'm sure that'll nail it. It's not helpful. The only thing I've found when I've searched online is there were a few people in One UI 7. having issues with fast charging through a wire it's like they're not getting the full speeds that it should have been and that was only a couple little foreign posts so i don't know specifics i'm not totally sure if it's just a weird bug

I've been trying to figure out if it's like I put my phone on and I like tap the screen and is for some reason it waking up and then going back to sleep doing something weird. Yeah, it's it doesn't make me feel confident waking up. That'll have battery charge. Well, there are two people on the Samsung website that say after the One UI 7 update, it says it's charging, but it does not actually increase the battery percentage.

Yeah, I had consecutive nights. One where I started with 19% and woke up with 19%. Another where I knew this had happened the previous night, so I specifically lined it up. perfectly and made sure it was charging, went to sleep, woke up the next morning, 40%.

so either it charged super slowly or it charged up to 40 and then stopped charging the one time i did look at it i looked at the battery like charging graph and i saw it go on the night and for like two bars it was charging then stopped and then like at

five-ish or six there was bars. So I was wondering if it was the, like, because I don't have alarms set on my phone, was it, is it trying to optimize for the, like, don't charge it until X amount of time till later? But since I don't have an alarm, it didn't want to do it. um but i never used alarms on the last update maybe i i don't know yeah let us leave comments if you are anywhere near where we are with our samsung you haven't used alarms

I use it on my watch. So we fully converted you to not using your alarms as your to do list. Oh, yeah, I don't use alarms at all for anything anymore. We did it. We did it. The podcast is over. The Waveform podcast saves lives. We fixed him. Well, lucky for you, Samsung is already testing the One UI 8 beta.

in select countries. This is for Android 16, right? Yeah, Android 16. They're emphasizing multimodal capabilities. It's only available in the US, UK, Germany, and South Korea. I believe we're in the United States. So you may be able to do this, but you would have to have an S25. You sure about that? I don't know. We might be part of Canada pretty soon. Anyway, so maybe look into that.

But you can't because it's only for S25s. Got him. Why don't you try this? Just kidding. You thought. Speaking of things that sometimes charge. You put some Dyson event on here. I did. I did not see the Dyson event. I did have a friend randomly text me and say, hey, you see that new Dyson, though? And I was like, what the hell? Okay, no, it's cool. Okay. Did either of you watch it? I posted it in our Instagram chat.

No, that's okay. It's just a clip. It's fine. I'm still on the minimal phone. I don't have Instagram. Good excuse. Your phone also freaked out when you picked it up. It does that, you know? So people are really that hyped about vacuum cleaners. Okay. First of all, this one, this is pretty cool. Okay. Okay. This one doesn't suck.

But doesn't it? I think this is simultaneously really cool and makes zero sense at all at the same time, which seems pretty par for the Corsair Dyson, even though I love my Dyson stick vacuum. I'm going to play this and kind of explain what's going on. then you can see what I'm talking about. So he's showing on stage this 38 millimeter motor that's inside their products. Cause like we all know Dyson.

they're not really bladeless it's inside the handle instead right so like these are their small handheld hair dryers with a little motor inside of the handle sure

And it's only 38 millimeters. And then they launched this new product with that same motor, which winds up being the wildest stick vacuum you could ever imagine that he pulls out of this like... pipe behind him and that is the entire vacuum he like sticks a vacuum head on it and it is i mean a pole at best oh wait oh this is why people are excited this was part of the set

It was like part of the set he just pulls out. It was there the whole time. No one noticed because of how thin it is. It's like in Willy Wonka where he's like, you thought this was factory? Nah, it's candy. It's like, you thought this was set? Nope. More vacuum. So where does the stuff go? That's exact. After you think this is really cool, then the first thing you go is, can it hold any dirt that it vacuums? Yeah, it's kind of like how most Dysons are amazing, but they last 20 minutes.

I love my Dyson vacuum. My Dyson lasts a solid 40 minutes. Wow. Just, you know. Exciting. I never vacuum for more than 40 minutes. That's fair enough. That's fair enough. That's probably what it is that way. This is like so you show some other cool things about how like the new head can like show dirt with this whatever light and that if it does hair it actually rolls all the hair up shoots it to the side and then you re

roll over so it doesn't get caught in all of the blades. So it detects hair. It's just like the way the blades are set up in this cone shape. It filters them out to the outside. But anyways, I just thought it was wild that they have a motor that's powerful enough that's that small that can power an entire vacuum. Where do they put the AI?

I'm pretty sure it's got hair detector. You know what's funny? Dyson, you remember that Vision Pro app where you could like vacuum and it would show you where you vacuumed already and you'd put like coins or whatever? i scrolled down on dyson's site and they have literally a mount that you put your phone attached to your vacuum cleaner so you can see where you vacuumed before with ar okay this company is wild in the best way i want to talk to them

I agree. That's so genius. I mean, James Dyson is like the son of the guy that invented the company, right? They're on one. This is the pencil vac. This event seemed pretty short and it was like really chill. He was just like... This is it. This is what it is. Okay. Cool. Like, look at it, and that's it. Available later this year. Why do they have a keynote event for a vacuum cleaner? It's more than just a vacuum cleaner. Is that where we're at? James Dyson founded.

Dyson. He's the guy. Oh, he's still there. This is him. Craziest Wikipedia, one of the craziest Wikipedia page introductions. James Dyson is a British inventor, industrial designer, farmer, and businessman. Yeah, there's a really good... There's a really good How I Built This Episode about Dyson. Oh, really? It's super good. To give them credit, we don't really talk about any other vacuum company because they're not that interesting. Yeah. Dyson is...

Making a weird category we don't usually talk about, kind of interesting. I mean, they have tiny motors and they just put them in stuff. Vacuums makes a lot of sense. They also did hair... dryers they also did that's that fan the bladeless fan the headphones with the mask that gives you cove they also did the worst so yeah they're they're out here innovating they do keynotes they had that that is kind of the

pinnacle tech keynote like thing you can do is go that product that's a top secret it's been in front of you this whole time boom part of the set that's like every tech company wants to do something like that that's true so shout out to Dyson yeah Dyson's got this weird thing on our podcast where they left like a sour taste in our mouth when we tried they wanted to do that sponsored thing a long time ago but also

Do every single one of us have a Dyson vacuum? Yeah. And like it? Yes. I think so. And I bought it. I have a Bissell with money. How dare you? Bissell, I've heard of that. A Bissell? I will say, I've owned a few Dyson clones. And they're just as good. Not only are they just as good, but a lot of them have articulating ball joints that my Dyson does not have that actually kind of made them a little better. Good. I have those too, but they're breaking down. Kind of sounds like

Like the iPhone in 2007 where like other phones came out and immediately built better features and other things. Yeah. Then there's just the iPhone and the other phones. Yeah. There's this dynamic. It feels like Dyson is Apple in this case. Yeah. And then everyone else has built.

potentially better products in certain ways, but the Dyson's still the Dyson. Yeah. Like they took an existing product and they did it in a... new interesting way that is like worse in some ways but the industrial design is so interesting that's kind of worth it also they're making robots soon are they really they announced like a robot initiative they're putting a ton of money into it because they make motors

Exactly. They make motors. It's kind of like how Tesla's not a car company. Dyson's not a vacuum company. And I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm really joking. There's a section of Twitter that was like, yes, David, yes, keep going. I'm really joking. Yeah. Okay. Well, speaking of... Do it. Do it. Things that are all being put in one place. Kind of like when you vacuum things up and it goes into one little container. Natural. Apple.

is going to put all the games in one place on your phone. Got games on your phone? Apple does. So currently, Apple has Game Center, which is sort of a little thing where you can have little high scores, and it plugs into Apple Arcade, which is their paid... service that allows you to have a bunch of games effectively for free but it's part of the subscription obviously and that is both great and horrible for some other reasons

But regardless, it's kind of separated, right? Like you can download the games on the App Store because there's an Apple Arcade section of the App Store. But then the whole Apple... system the game center system is like a really old system game center launched like on the ipod touch yeah yeah so it's old it like looks old it's you know it's not newer For the last few years, Apple has been really pushing this whole like you can run.

high-fidelity Resident Evil games on your iPhone, right? And so they want to basically highlight Apple Arcade more because they're trying to push services because their devices are getting less and less popular.

They're selling less iPhones, etc. So there is a rumor that at WWDC in a couple of weeks, they're going to launch a new dedicated gaming app, which not only... sort of has everything that Game Center had, but it's sort of like a Xbox-style launcher on your phone where all of your games will be inside.

It'll have all the like, oh, your friends are online. Here's your high scores. Here's all this information. And then also, currently, when you're on the App Store, you just have to go find games on the App Store and then download them. You can download, theoretically, this is based on this leak. all of the games on the App Store through this game app. So it's just sort of a consolidated place for you to do gaming on your iPhone.

this is this sort of makes sense because apple's been really like pushing a lot of gaming features on not only iphones but also max for the last couple of years i could see this also being pushed to mac and then they have an opportunity to compete with like steam in some sort of way right especially if they finally get developers to actually developed for mac which they've been trying to do they've been really trying to do that for a long time but with their new like porter like porting toolkit

that allows you to port games to Mac really easily. I think that they're hoping that developers are actually going to start doing that. They only announced that like a year or so ago. So I think at this WWDC, we're going to see how many people have actually started using this toolkit. all six of them all six of them yeah I think it makes sense to put it all in one I also think there's an

Being able to see what your friends are playing opens up a new opportunity to potentially find new games by being like, oh, David's playing this. I've never heard of that. I'm hoping there's a way to be like, let me see that game in now the... Not the app store, but the new game store, whatever you want to call it. Do you guys play?

Games. Got games on your phone? Take a second, because you usually don't think, okay, I don't play COD or Fortnite on my phone. But you can now, by the way, because Fortnite's back on the App Store. Fortnite is back on the App Store. As of a few days ago. But do you even play random, mindless Candy Crush? type any other type of game at all i literally my entire life have never had games on my phone at all in the last few months there are two games that i now play on my phone which are

Pokemon trading card game pocket, which Andrew abandoned me on. Yeah, because I'm tired of vacuum cleaner Pokemon. Yeah, same. But, you know, it's a slot machine. If only it was a Dyson Pokemon. Dysonmon. Dysonmon. And then I also play Bellatro, which is not gambling. Just letting you know. It's not gambling. No, Bellatro.

It's a rope. I kind of want to try it. It's really, really good. It won Game of the Year last year. Yeah, it did. It's gambling. It's not gambling. You don't use real money at all.

That doesn't mean it's not gambling. There's something bad about saying you don't use real money. Well, you don't even bet money. Yeah, yeah. You don't use money at all. I would just say it like that. You don't use money at all. You don't even bet. You don't even bet. I mean, you don't bet in blackjack, but it's still gambling.

You don't pick an amount and say, I'm betting this much. Yes, you do. That is exactly how you play blackjack. I like to just play until you're like, no, I want to stop. And then when you decide you stop. Every single hand, you put more money down. And you say, I am putting this much money. Oh, then never mind. But I do have another thing to say. Casino game. I do want to say, I read last month in MacHash a stat that really surprised me. About Blatro? No, about gaming and iPhones.

Because, according to MacHash, and they did not cite where they got this data from. Huge disclaimer in this article. They do not say the study that this came from. But... According to Mac hash, 86% of iPhone users do use their iPhones to play games. I would not be surprised. I believe that's how Apple makes almost all of their revenue. But what's interesting is that's 10% higher. than Android users. Yeah. Yeah. Because Android has a lot of, like...

There is some fraction of Android phones that is not even designed to ever play games. Like they're just a budget phone that gets you from point A to point B and that's fine. And there is also a specific section of Android phones that's just designed to play games, which is why it kind of seems...

a little weird but there are gaming phones out there and you're like oh if i'm a gamer it's android but game android is this whole wide world yeah where iphones and like regular people you might be shocked how many people play farmville today yeah like it's it's just Well, Google just removed like millions of apps from the Play Store. And I think the difference is that Apple always had this sheen of like, we have this process where we test.

a lot of apps like it's a big deal when an app gets pushed to the app store and it ends up having malware in it because apple is supposed to have this like really like really hardcore process where they approve or don't approve apps Google has more been like sort of this Wild West kind of thing where you can just like publish apps pretty easily. Yeah. From experience, when we had panels go to both the Play Store and the App Store, the experience with the Play Store was like submit.

All right, you're in. It's an approval. And the app store was like, here are these extremely specific things we'd like you to tweak. I was like, wow. So I think that when you... buy a game on the app store like the idea is that the games are supposed to be higher quality they're supposed to be less like spammy you get all those instagram ads where it's just like some mindless game where you and yeah it's a whole thing yeah um

So I think that people assume the games on the iPhone are going to be higher quality, and that's probably why they're more willing to spend money on them. Yeah. Also, I think the demographic in general of people who use iPhones primarily is like... they spend more money.

in general here's a fringe definition of gaming on your phone because when i open this app the gaming mode fires up you're gonna say the same thing i've been wanting to bring up and i think it's so funny does wordle count as gaming on your wordle i think so yeah okay wordle with the little

game optimization booster tab coming up. You're gaming right now, bro. I'm like, kind of, yeah. Firing up the additional GPU cores. That's exactly what's happening. Green, yellow, green, yellow, green. It's like, yeah, it's optimal.

I was looking at my phone to be like, what is that service thing called? But it's so funny when it's like, I want to play Wordle for five minutes. You want to optimize this? I think that counts towards the 80-something percent. The New York Times app alone probably accounts for like a... There's a lot of games right there. Yeah. Crosswords, does your mom do Crosswords? She's a gamer. She's a gamer. Hardcore gamer. All right.

Last thing that we got. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm going to need a better. Hold on. A segue. Speaking of things that are more or less popular than you thought they were. pixel 10 or less things that exist things that are speaking of things things that are outside of your originally perceived level of popularity what pixel phone All right. Okay.

That, okay. Well, come on. Proceed. I'll give it to you. Let's proceed. Pixel 10. Look, Pixels, in our world, Pixel is very well known and everyone knows about the Pixel. But outside of our world. Oh, now I get your transition. Outside of our world, the Pixel is like a five. percenter type phone like not a lot of people use a pixel however

There is one thing you can count on with the Pixel every year, which is that months before it comes out, it will leak in its entirety. Every single thing about it, from the specs to the design to the new features to what it looks, everything will be. I have the 10 right here.

would not be shocked at all reason you're talking about the pixel calling your plumber it leaked nice so pixel 10 uh there was this tweet that kind of went viral i think the original might have been deleted but it's been blasted everywhere now um which is somebody was going out for a walk and was walking by what looked like a little commercial shoot and they looked closely and it was just a pixel 10 commercial being shot

And the reason they knew that is because they zoomed all the way in and looked at it, and it was clearly a new pixel. No, no. I would argue it's not very clearly a new pixel because it looks very similar. The way they knew it was that is he got pictures of... The whole storyboard that said Google Pixel 10 in the storyboard.

I guess, yeah, if you didn't know it was a new Pixel, you would... It looks just like the 9. It looks like the 9. That could have just been a commercial shoot for Pixel 9. He sees this cool probe lens, a big slider, like an offset camera shoot. Let's take some pictures. He said he was just interested in the camera. Then he zooms in and gets a picture of the storyboard, which is straight up storyboarding that ends with ask more of your phone, Google Pixel 10 and like a floating. That is so funny.

These Samsung-Google marketing partnerships are getting really weird. Yeah, because didn't he... They have to have done this with those Galaxy Supers. No, I actually think he's a photographer, so I think he straight up has... He was on a beach and in his Twitter... He has other photos at the beach. I think he just has a really good now. That's I do want to say though. I do feel like I was heard because

Very last episode, I was like, we need more interesting phone leaks. None of this. None of that. We need phones being left in the wild. Walk on the beach, stumble on a production. Like that's.

Thank you, Google, for listening. I will say from the images, I do see a probe lens in there. I'm very curious what they're shooting with the probe lens. Yeah, they always do that Apple-like shot of it being swept away from the screen. Yeah, like you go real close to the screen. It's probably going to be one of those classics. You can look at the whole story.

and literally see the commercials if you want to. The interesting things from the storyboard are one of them shows the like add me feature going on where it's like a... mother and daughter and it says like take a picture and then we see them walk away and their outline stays and the dad like runs in so we know they're going to talk about that the other thing I was wondering is there's a part that says

Having a lilac 15, I was wondering if lilac might be a color. Probably like a light purple type thing. 15 inch though, what does that mean? Yeah, that was confusing. Maybe that means 15 seconds. Oh, maybe. A lot of commercials are 15 or 30. Oh, that's the name of the commercial. Having a lilac. 15 second spot.

Okay, that would make more sense. I would, you know, it would be amazing. When you use Gemini, when you got me. If somebody, some really talented YouTuber who is good at cinematography and has the right equipment. could create this commercial before Google. Oh, s***. Holy s***.

and put it out. We have the storyboard. Because we have a storyboard. We have the shots. We know what gear they're using. We know they're shooting it outside. And we just use the Pixel 9. Get branded on the phone. I'd like to put that challenge out there. Because I was going to say it would be very funny. I kind of want to put all these photos into Google Flow and see if it'll just make the commercial. Yeah.

Did you just have that idea right now? That's such a good idea, Marcus. We're watching Genius in Motion, bro. This is a genius studio video. Because imagine having that and then publishing it right before Google and then Google publishes theirs and you're like, well. That's a studio video. We've got plenty of time to do this.

I think there are some quality creators out there who could pull this off. I'm just throwing it out there. I'm not going to do it, so I'm leaving the idea out there. We're not going to do it? You're not going to do it. We might do it. I'm already throwing this to Eric by the time we get out of here. All right, we might try it. We might try. We made the...

A pixel commercial before Google did it. I kind of like to say, okay, maybe we will do this. I thought you were being facetious. No, I think someone actually should do it, and maybe it should be us. I think that's the case. Okay. Now we're talking. I think that's a true fact. Okay, noted. Yeah, we... Because this would go... yeah i like this this would go very viral okay i'm keeping this side

You can do it too, but maybe we'll do it also. Can I play the Pixel 10? You can be the add me dad. The add me daddy? Yeah, yeah. So what colors does it come in? Well, lilac made me think of colors and there was also a leak of what colors are going to be coming out, which is obsidian, iris, blue, limoncello. Limoncello. So black. Which I do remember. What was, was it like the pixel? Yellow.

Seven had that, like, yellow color? Wait, what is limoncello? Yellow? Limoncello is yellow. Okay. Wow, yellow. Cool. So goldish? It's the same color. I think it's, like, quite yellow. It's, like, pretty yellow. Yeah. Which is weird. Okay, cool. Well, I was going to say the only reason this leak was interesting because of the storyboard, and I think you proved that.

That was the interesting part. Waveform is our brainstorming session. I was making YouTube videos for probably a decade before I knew what a storyboard was. I never went to film school. I never learned what a storyboard was. But once you understand how direct... This commercial storyboard is probably one to one with what the commercial is. You can literally just make the commercial. The storyboard for this podcast episodes is crazy. The script is in. Yeah.

Scene one, we're sitting here. Scene five, we're still sitting here. Interior, podcast studio. The boys are talking. The temperature just rises one degree in every story. The tweet did get deleted. If you want to see it, there's a Reddit thread and a 9to5 Google article. If you just type in Pixel 10 leak, you'll find it. Real quick, just speaking of leaks.

that did get deleted, unfortunately. Someone unboxed the Nintendo Switch 2 just to get that SEO in there. I saw that. And it was only like a seven second clip. but it got taken down like immediately that person probably got yeah because i saw the i saw an article that tried to embed the youtube video like okay obviously instantly broken and i played and it was like this was a copyright strike and i was like yeah did nintendo like oh yeah

Yeah. Snap. Oh, yeah. Mario just showed up with a pipe. With a hammer. With a pipe. It's a me. Yeah. That's going to be tough. tough for whoever's uh trying to re-upload that maybe they probably already did re-upload it i was looking for a real upload like all night last night and i couldn't find it there's probably a team of like a hundred people working on striking those yeah shout out to them that's true um speaking of switch two really quickly

We're not going to be able to really cover it immediately, which kind of sucks because it comes out on Thursday. Never say never. We're going to try. We'll see. Stay subscribed to the general network of channels. If something really important happens during the launch. We'll come in and we'll record a little quickie banger on Thursday or something like that. Yeah. If only for the intro. It better be really good.

Yeah, Lemoncello. Well, we do have a lot more to talk about after the break, including an interview. And we want to figure out what is happening in the world of browsers right now. So we will do that. But before that, trivia. All right, welcome back to Waveform Trivia. Guys, I think I cracked the code. I feel like the guy in the Da Vinci code right now because it's been cracked. Isn't it Tom Hanks? Yes, Tom Hanks. I figured out a way to talk about basketball.

on this podcast without an angry mob showing up. Yo, the Knicks game. I love this. No, no, we're not talking about that. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't ruin this for me. Don't bring it up. David, you're Knicks, Laura. You got to keep that out of here somewhere else. In. Korea, some Korean basketball teams have such strong sponsorship affiliations with tech companies that the tech company's name is actually in the team name in between the city and the mascot.

Okay. And the mascot. So, which of the following KBL teams is not real. Andrew, what are you Googling? Oh, no, sorry. This is a baseball thing that I wanted to bring up. Okay, but be very careful. I'm not. I promise you. Make sure he's not looking up. All right. He looked up the Samsung. A, the soul.

samsung we're not answering right now are we yeah but we hear you know what if i wanted a little fanfare god forbid ellis has a little fun on this podcast it's not in the storyboard you're not allowed to go off script anyway A, the Seoul Samsung Thunders. B, the Changwon LG Sakers. Saker is a kind of falcon.

C, the Olsan Hyundai Mobis Phoebus. I hate this. Hold on, gotta explain that one a little bit. Olsan, city in Korea, Hyundai Mobis is a division of Hyundai, and Phoebus is an epithet for the Greek. god apollo wow or d they're all real you know how we have theoretically we have separation between church and state in america I feel like in Korea, they really need separation between sport and brand.

Those brands are massive. They're big brands. Well, I mean, the brands are just so huge. I just want to say there is an irony to the fact that we are recording this podcast less than 10 miles away from the stadium that homes the New York Red Bulls. Well, but that's not... Right? No, that is. That is the name of the team. And it is that Red Bull. Indiana, according to Gemini, is very close in size to South Korea. So imagine if you had a brand...

But I don't know if that's true. Like, if Indiana had a basketball team, let's say the Pacers. We're done here. Okay. I just want to say, since we're talking about scoreboards. Aren't they winning? Yes. R.I.P. R.I.P. The Poop MLB scoreboard. R.I.P. The Poop. Wow. Wow. Real Pennsylvania.

Whenever the Phillies and the Pirates would play, the scoreboard would be the P for Phillies, zero for the score, then zero for the score, and P for Pirates. And for like 10 years, the scoreboard would always just say poop at the start of every game. And it's... They changed it this year and they did a eulogy in the broadcast for it. That's so funny. Philly sports and Pittsburgh sports have some rivalries going on.

And so celebrating this rivalry with the poop scoreboard is like a beloved Pennsylvania tradition. That's so funny. I didn't know their logo was just a P. Why don't you just use two letters? Like, P-H? Well, no, those are their logos. That's their team logo. It's not even just the, like, letter of their name. That'd be funny. All right. We will think about these potential... brand team collabs. Answers will be at the end, like usual. We'll be right back.

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Professor of Finance at NYU's Stern School of Business. He shares his take on the recent tariff turmoil and what he's watching as we head into second quarter earnings. This is going to be a contest between market resilience and economic resilience as to whether in fact the markets are overestimating. the resilience of the economy. And that's what the actual numbers are going to deliver is maybe the economy and markets are a lot more resilient than we gave them credit for.

In which case, we'll come out of this year just like we came out of 2020 and 2022 with much less damage than we thought would be created. You can find that conversation exclusively on the Prof G Markets feed. All right, welcome back. So this next segment is a bit of a different one. It's an extra person, but we're all still chatting.

I don't know if you guys have picked up on this, but I feel like on social media and the past couple of weeks online, I've seen a lot more chatter about browsers. New browser here, up-and-coming browser there, AI alongside your browser here. And it's just got me thinking a lot about what the future of browsers actually is. It's not a question we think about very often, but now it's something we're thinking about. And so who better to have that conversation with than Josh, CEO of...

the browser company. They've made a browser called Arc that a lot of us at the studio have fallen in love with and started using. And then they also rapidly pivoted very recently and started working on a new browser that's powered by AI called Dia. We have thoughts on it. He, of course, is going to have things to say about it. So we figured we'd have that whole conversation here on Waveform.

It's also just a segment of the conversation that you're about to hear. We're going to have the longer entire full published thing on Monday. So if you want to stay tuned for that, get subscribed. But here are some of the best parts of that conversation with Josh from The Browser Company. about browsers. What's going on with them? Hey, Josh, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. Not super long trip, but easy to get here. Yeah. And we love having you.

First of all, let's introduce you because you're the CEO of The Browser Company. And The Browser Company is a pretty self-explanatory name. But break down what you do, what the company does, and then we can chat about all the stuff. Thank you so much for having me. When we started The Browser Company, people...

warned me that nobody cares about web browsers. So didn't think this is why I would be here, but it's awesome to have made it on Waveform making web browsers. So thank you for having me. We make two browsers. We make a browser called Arc, which is awesome to see on both of your screens. I appreciate it. And then a new AI browser called Dia, which I'm excited to talk about today. Is that a reference to Dia Beacon, by the way?

Naming's hard. So for one of the people, Dia Beacon had a connection to it. Dia Beacon is an art museum in Beacon, New York. yeah i think i remember saying a while ago ark is a good name too i do remember that i definitely remember that it's a good name yeah and also dia is kind of like a new day a new dawn if there's one thing that is hard at startups naming anything and creating a logo for anything

is a religious debate. Totally fair. We got here. So, I mean, as we've talked about on this podcast, there's been like a lot of chatter in the browser world. You know, obviously we're a more niche group of people really into tech, but it just feels like there's movement with browsers and with people trying.

new things and new concepts and new ideas of what the internet is and what search is. And it's all very interesting. And so I figured it would be cool to have you talk a little bit about number one, how we got to ARK. And then number two, how you moved from Arc to Dia being the second big focus and big project. Sure. Yeah. So our original observation that led to the browser company was that...

It was 2019, 2020. And I was actually working at a VC firm for two years. And I was noticing that all of the kind of hot new startups that were coming in, they were all web apps for the first time. You know, for the 10 years before that, everything I'd been working on were mobile apps.

And now these companies are coming in and showing these wild new reinventions of documents. Exactly. And then what struck me was every time they came in, they were in this rectangle that was Chrome. And that thing hadn't changed at all in decades. But the thing that really got me excited about browsers was that observation. And then my wife got a job with a 76-year-old artist in Flagstaff, Arizona.

The least tech-centric workplace you can imagine. And I saw her in her new job. She never left Chrome. Even in the art world, you know, she got sent PDFs from galleries and they were... urls that she opened in chrome she spent hours and hours every day in chrome and myself and my co-founder and the early employees were all consumer backgrounds people that worked at snapchat and instagram were really interested in how software can touch people at scale you know all the people

our life. And we thought, wait a minute, browsers are one of the most consumer pieces of software imaginable. You don't think about it like that. Like the way you feel about Instagram or your iPhone. No one cares about Chrome or Safari in that way. And so that to us felt like, oh, my God, this is this dry utility that hasn't changed in.

two decades that you use for hours every single day. And everyone's like, yeah, I don't really have an opinion about it. Like, where else in tech do you have that? So that was really the simple idea was, OK, if our browsers are now really these effectively operating systems with our apps and files.

And you don't care about it, but you're spending hours every day. What might it look like to build a piece of software that people cared so much about and made them feel good? Which kind of gets back to where I started is people warned they don't care. And I think part of the reason we're here today is now people care so much about ARK that I'm coming on the Wake One podcast. So be careful what you wish for, I guess. Yeah, so we end up in a place where we all are super heavy.

tech users and a lot of us here, I think all of us actually still use Arc, like really love the browser and the product and the features and a lot of the UI. People can scroll back to previous episodes where we've talked about it. And so it's developed a community where yes, people do care about this web browser.

And now there's this new project you're working on, which is Dia, which is super early. We've all started playing with it, and it's very different. You've already said it's an AI-based web browser. Explain what Dia is, and then we can figure out how it exists in the world of browsers. Yeah, actually, and before getting into Dia, I'm curious. I went back and rewatched the first time David brought up Arc on this podcast. Nice.

By the way, it's embarrassing because I had no idea how to explain it. I was like, it removes my tabs when I don't use them. ARC got introduced to this whole company because... David has a tab hoarding problem. And it had a feature to do that. And that was the feature that sold David off the bat. And that was only one of the features.

But then it slowly grew to multiple people in the office and it's become like a favorite. But I remember being so excited to hear that David brought it up on this podcast. And I remember watching the video and like, David, I knew he knew about it. And you really did stumble.

Well, it does this and the tabs are on the side It's weird and it's interesting like hearing you talk about the way that people want to have like an emotional connection with their browser because again even something as simple as having the tabs on the side of the browser that's something that is very native to arc that i think a lot of people are and we'll get into this later i think but like are frustrated about with like dx it's back to the chrome experience but uh yeah it's just

There have been many things about ARC that have just got their hooks into us here at the studio. And so the reason I bring it up, though, is because on that podcast, you were, I would say... Open-minded, but very skeptical. And I'm curious for you what shifted, because it relates to the Dia story that we'll get to in a second, I'm sure. I think it's one of those things where I didn't care too much about the browser either. I was using Chrome, and then I was switching to Safari on the laptop.

because of the battery life was better and I was just kind of agnostic and was willing to try something so I tried something and I think it was a couple features that I did like especially for whatever reason the side tabs it's a widescreen machine like it just made too much sense and I just got hooked

So Arc like quickly became my home and then the syncing across devices, I just like started using Arc a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. So to answer your question about D and then I'm sure we can come back to that. So there.

My personal life and professional life I keep very separate. You know, my personal life, it's people I went to college with, high school with. They're not in tech. They work in manufacturing or art. And I feel like in the past six months, nine months, all of them have started. talking to these AI chat tools for everything in their life. You know, my friend who works in manufacturing that I was talking about, I was hanging out with him a couple weekends ago, and he was saying there's not a...

professional project or personal chore that he does not turn to AI in some way to get help with. And the last time... There have been two times in my life that has happened where I woke up one day and all of my personal friends changed the way they interface with their computers. When I was in middle school and everyone got an AIM and MySpace and LiveJournal and Facebook. And then in college, starting with a Blackberry and then the iPhone when we started.

doing things like Instagram and then stories on Snapchat. This is that third time in my life. And I feel like because we're so in the tech world talking about AI, and I actually think I did a poor job of leading us about a year ago because I felt uncomfortable about this.

In our industry, AI is like a political topic. It's like politics where you have these two extreme parties and voices that dominate the conversation because they have the time to care about it. You have these AGI maximalists that are like, get ready for UBI. And then you have people that.

that actually has a reaction to this, and I was part of that at the beginning, are like, it's slop, it's garbage, it's dystopian, it's going to write our emails to our loved ones, like how dumb it is. And I think when you get out of the building, which we've tried to do for the past year and a half, and talk to people that are not

in tech, it's somewhere in the middle, but I would actually say slightly closer to the AGI side of it is rewiring how people interface with their computers. There was this University of Nebraska student I interviewed, and she was talking about, I turned to it for a meal. planning and for help with outfits and friend advice in school. And so the foundational kind of observation of Dia was that what is a browser? It is technically a user agent.

Your browser is designed to represent you to web pages and web servers and bring stuff back on your behalf. And so it seems so clear outside of the tech world and arc and all that stuff aside that... People wanted to interface with the internet, not just with webpages anymore, but with AI models and probably in the future agents like Deep Research. And shouldn't your interface to the internet be able to both handle webpages and chat? and models and agents. And so that was the observation.

that made us so excited to work on Dia. We can obviously talk about Arc as well and the challenges we had there, but that really was the inciting observation that led us to say, wait a minute, if we're really building a browser, a user agent for the next five, 10 years, which we have to think about. The world is so clearly going there, whether or not the AGI versus AI slop debate gets talked about the most. I think the big question that opens up, though, is that the browser company...

A lot of people felt very passionate about the browser company because you guys put so much effort into making the Thursday updates like an event and the onboarding, how it was so colorful. And there's just like a feeling that everyone really got close to and associated with it.

with and so i think the feeling that a lot of the community is like well if you're going to do this fine but why not just integrate that into arc like what's the point of like starting a whole new browser instead of just putting those AI features into ARK itself. Yeah, and I want to touch on the Thursday updates and the feelings because it's really important. You all were actually influential here. What people miss was the first year of ARK.

The first year of ARK did not have a lot of the stuff that people love. And the way that we got to that place was by testing it early with people who are like, nah, I don't like it. Here's what I don't like about it. Man, this is missing the soul. Like, where is that feeling? Where are the craft details? Where is the browser coming? Now, the question of why not integrate into Arc?

Boy, did we try. Like, a year of my life trying to figure out how we could take where we thought the world was going and put it in ARC. There are two problems. I wish there were three, because it's a rule of three, but there are two. The first is... There's this novelty.

tax that you get when you try a new product not you guys but the average person has a job and they have stuff going on in their life and someone's like hey you should try this new thing ARK they have like 30 seconds that they're willing to give to it and as David talked about stumbling over

his original pitch they're like okay so they're the tabs are over here and there are these things called spaces and then there are pin tabs but the pin tabs are different the bookmarks in these ways you got to try split screen and it's just like the people just couldn't handle how much there was to learn that was new. And so we just felt if the world is going to as profoundly shift as we think it is because of these AI models,

How are we going to teach you how to interface with AI models and agents and whatever the heck comes while also teaching you about all of those novel concepts? It's a lot. It just seemed... I mean, before AI, that was our biggest problem. That's why we came to the office to try to get you on board. You know, two years ago is like you had someone you worked with saying it was amazing. And you work in tech trying new products. You're like, no, I'm good. Yeah. So that was.

problem number one problem number two is it touches me and our team that people love arc so much it also had performance issues I think it had way too many features. We built it in a very prototype experimental way. And what we learned over time is the importance of speed and the importance of reliability and just your browser feeling snappy. And there were architectural decisions we made in Arc.

and then layered and layered and layered over time that even if we thought we could solve the novelty problems, it would have been really challenging to hit our bar for speed and performance and other things that were important to us. I don't quite know how to verbalize this, and if you all think about this with your video creations, but it also felt like ARC was...

Not finished, not perfect, but it had the right components. It was what it was meant to be. It didn't feel like it was missing things. And if you go back to our YouTube comments, maybe a year ago or so. Every time we would push a new feature, people would say, I don't want a new feature. I want Android support.

And I don't want a new feature. I want this to be faster. And so I feel like we also don't talk enough in the software world about like when a product is not done, but in the state it is meant to be. And it is what it is. and you can do with it what you want and to me

Again, people that used ARK, I'm sure you didn't have that many complaints with the tab model or the craft details. It sort of felt like the product was what it was meant to be. And there was something to just like come to terms with, you know? Does that make sense? Yeah, no, I think that was one of my questions was essentially. is arc a finished product because it is so different and it is so built and it has these new fundamentals and now it kind of does this new thing

And obviously there's optimizations and speed improvements and little things here and there, but essentially as an idea, is it done? Yes. I feel like it kind of is. At least that was my take, which is why, you know. I think people who use ARK are kind of just asking for the little things now instead of just like massive new ideas. But yeah, go ahead. And the analogy that we use internally is or one of them is, you know, Frank Ocean's Channel Orange.

There was a mixtape that put him on the scene before that. And that only appealed to a certain type of audience. It was a great mixtape, but it was done. It was a finished work of art. It was a complete thought. And Channel Orange was a how do we make something? I'm not sure that we thought about it, but like, you know what I mean? It's finished. Yeah, it's very it's funny because in the in the video world where we make a video, we we kind of we can edit the video forever. Like I can edit one.

video for a year and it could never be done but at a certain point I have to get to 97% and go on to the next one and so the video gets published and it's done and I can never finish it in the software world people have this expectation of updates forever like you buy a new phone and you're like i want to get software updates for as long as possible if i download and install a browser i want new features and new updates for forever

So the expectation is different, but yeah, I feel like it's maybe a little bit more of a statement of the idea being so different that it can finish and be sort of published and that's... different in a software world. And honestly, I think it's, I'm surprised we don't talk about software more as a cultural product, like a video or a piece of art in that way. And that I looked at my iPhone screen, for example, and many of the apps that I still love and I've used for decades.

instapaper i writer even apple notes they're pretty much the same product and i'm happy with it like one of the things that i will reflect on in a decade is You know, we started putting out these videos very early on when other tech companies didn't do that. Really not with a plan, just to sort of be ourselves and be open and invite the community in and just, I don't know, as an experiment.

And a consequence, I think, of our kind of experimental prototype driven culture where every week there is new stuff. And our experiment of being like, let's just be open about what we're doing meant that we set this expectation that like every week there's going to be some new hotness and new features. We thrived on that for so long. Think about Safari. Is Safari a finished product? It updates once a year.

Yeah. No one complains about that. How, you know, if you, whoever you over there use Chrome, how often are you like, man, this new Chrome feature is dope. So I'm that's, I don't know what to do with that. Again, it's a by-product of the way we, I have run this company, but I think there's also this.

interesting bar where no one's complaining that Safari hasn't gotten like wild new features in a long time. So I have done a horrible job in many ways, I think, communicating about what the heck is going on at the browser company. So I will own that. But Arc's not going anywhere. Arc is not going.

anywhere arc is not going anywhere we're just focused on dia in terms of where most of our energy is and then yeah let's do chromium upgrades let's do security patches let's do bug fixes let's do the same things that these other browsers do okay how much of your company would you say that you have devoted to making sure that arc is stable? There are probably three engineers at any given time working on one of those topics.

But just to be really clear, I don't want to over... We are not building new features as of now for ARK. But that is very different than this product is being sunsetted or going anywhere or anything like that. When you see your two companies... two browsers together. Do you expect people to move from Arc to Dia or do you kind of expect the Arc world to stay in Arc and Dia is a new subset of?

people coming to it. Yeah, I think we're in a little bit uncharted territory for a software company of our stage. And that, you know, we called it the browser company for a reason. We could have changed the name to Arc many times. And so we've always been excited about having a portfolio of products and of browsers. Having said that, I do think a lot of the things people love about Ark will come to Dia in some form. And so the honest answer is like...

I don't know. Because one of the things that's been perplexing about ARC is we tried to get to the root of what was powerful about ARC for people. And it turned out there were like seven different archetypes that used like, there was the archetype that...

use the browser in zero Chrome like David is here and kind of flew around with keyboard shortcuts. And you had like the space organizer with pin tabs and folders renamed everything. And so in terms of are people going to go from Arc to Dia, we're not going to force anyone to do anything. I really like I'm.

I'm an Apple fanboy. I'm inspired by that. You got the MacBook Pro and then the MacBook Air and the iPad and it's different things for different people. But I suspect when we bring things over like a vertical sidebar, when we take a novel take on.

tab management i think a lot of people not to mention the browser company kind of design flair and craft i suspect a lot of arc people will prefer dia but i get excited about having having both uh for the foreseeable future so what's your plan to move those chrome users over then right because if the whole if the whole idea is it's too complicated for most people it's

equally complicated to just get someone to move on to something else at all. Like there's a lot of friction there. You're a small company. There's not a lot of brand recognition for my mom. you know what's like how how are you planning on like finding those people who were never going to see the browser company at all because the whole point right is that you is that arc is sort of a limited user base because it's the power users yep if dia is supposed to be

Let's take all of Chrome's market share. How do you access those people at all? Yeah. Well, that is the big question. That has always been the question for this company from day one. So I don't want to purport to have like the definite answer. But the theory of Dia is so if you go back to the idea of. a browser as a user agent and it's a user agent for web pages and now it's going to be user agent for models and chat i think one of the things we concluded with

arc is that Chrome actually and Safari do great jobs with web pages. Obviously, there are things around tab management and along sides, but I think for most people, they're fine with the way their user agent, their browser opens tabs. When you talk to those people I referenced, the college friend and my wife, about what is frustrating about these AI chat tools, we really hear two things. The first is...

It's a pain in the butt to get that context out of whatever app or file you're working in into the chat tool so it has the awareness of what you're working on to do the damn thing. The second thing that frustrates them is it doesn't know anything about them.

Even with memory, it knows the chats that you've had, but it doesn't really know what is your taste, what is your writing style, what are the things that you love, what are the things that you don't like. The browser, the traditional browser and traditional webpages...

solve both of those issues. Because as we started with, what are your tabs in 2025? Their apps and their files. So you don't have to copy and paste and futz around to get stuff out into chat. Let's just bring these AI models right to where you are in the apps and files that you use every day.

And then the second bet is that, you know, you know how when you use Instagram reels or TikTok for better or worse, it feels like every swipe, every action like teaches the algorithm to better understand you. Yeah. The way that it should feel in the future is that in an AI browser like Dia, every tab that you open

It feels like this model, it's not Sam Altman's GPT-4-0, it's like GPT-David. And it's getting better and better and trained for you, every action that you take, so that when you ask a question about something else, it not only has the context of...

that tab that you don't have to copy and paste into a tool. It also remembers the last seven shopping sessions that you did or the last 17 things that you wrote. Like the way that I can't quite. This is the first external marketing thing I've done, so I don't actually have my language down yet. But there's something I've been thinking about.

that with Arc, the sort of hero image was the cluttered tab bar. Whenever we showed like seven windows with 50 tabs open, people were like, I hate that. I want whatever this is that fixes that. And that's so interesting because in the old world, that was a problem. That was clutter. That was chaos. In the world of AI models, that is like oil. It is the context that is missing to make these models actually understand you.

The bet that you have to believe, which I know maybe not all of you do, is that truly AI is going to change how we interface with our computers and the things that you turn to it for. If you don't believe that, we're screwed.

If you believe that future is going to be a reality, then I think the convenience of having it right there in your tools and files combined with the compounding personalization that you get from that awareness is something that at least from talking to people outside the building. That's what is on their mind right now. They're not complaining about, you know.

man, when I go to Google and I click this link, this sucks. Give me a browser. That's not what's going on in the world anymore. Yeah. Do you have like a timeline of when Dia will feel like this product that you are sort of pitching? Because I think right now, I think a lot of the backlash from Ark being, I don't know about Sunset, but maintained and Dia coming out is that...

Part of the reason that people love Ark is because you built in the open, right? And now you're building Dia in the open. I think a lot of those... ARC users love the browser company, so they were frustrated that ARC was being Sunset and... Not being Sunset. Not being Sunset. Not being Sunset. Being maintained. Journalism. Yep. Sorry. Being maintained.

is that the version of Dia that people have access to right now is very bare bones and doesn't necessarily meet the more grandeur ideas that you have for how you're going to interact with this AI browser. So...

Do you have like a timeline of when people are going to be able to play with something that has those capabilities? Yeah, it obviously depends on what bits you're talking about, but I'll try to answer. Yeah. By the way, yeah, some other point over beer is I'd love to talk about the pros and cons of building in public and being transparent.

it in public on youtube um but yeah actually when my second son was born i like left the hospital in paris actually uh to go get food for my wife and someone's like hey I love it. I was like, whoa, this is like a new, this is not what I thought was gonna. But in any event, to answer your question super directly, I'd say if you're someone that tried ARK or has never tried ARK and you tried Dia to get to the bar where you're like,

oh, this feels better than Chrome, six weeks. You are on an old version of it, but I feel good about that. In terms of the both, I'd say, grandeur of what I'm talking about, which, again, was always there with Arc. So we're going to be an internet computer operating system for their web. The grander and the, I'd say, ARC members feeling like it has enough of the basic, you know, the things that they, the vertical sidebar, I'd say somewhere between Labor Day and Thanksgiving.

um but again on the hey you just browse like you normally do and this like model self-personalizes to that's going to be a many many year thing but what we did with arc was just like let's be honest about where we're going and build it in public and around people like you know The other day, one of the things we're going to release soon and kind of when we give it to ARC members very soon is there were these college students that were hacking.

our personalization features to make these mini apps, like almost like AI apps. So they created the syntax where they would be like, when I do backslash gadgets, I want you to do these 17 things. And so then they'd hit a new tab and do backslash gadgets and then whatever they wanted to do. And they kind of like made their own little apps. And we're like, well, and multiple did for different use cases. And this goes back to the native to the technology, native to the phone.

Well, that's pretty wild. And so what we've been sprinting to do, you know, that we weren't going to do five weeks ago is like, man, we got to formalize this and see if we make it even easier what other people do. And so that's all to say part of the reason that, you know, the grander, it won't be there.

you know, right away is the stuff's hard and it takes time. But part of the reason is the reason ARC is so beloved is because we were like, we have no idea what we're doing. Let's put some stuff out there, see what people do react to it. And so we also want to have time to say, Maybe the big idea here is actually AI native apps aren't going to be these agents. They're going to be these like user created and shared little mini apps that. It's an idea. It's an idea. It's a definitely idea.

So that's it for now with Josh from The Browser Company. Really interesting to chat with him. Thanks again, Josh, for the time. And again, if you want to listen to the full, what do we chat for like an hour, an hour-long conversation with Josh, stay tuned because we're going to publish that whole thing on Monday.

in depth on some other things and talk more about Dia and the future of what Google could do to them or not do to them and why. It's fascinating. It's got us thinking about a lot of new things. Either way, back to your pod. Well, we got a little bit more after the break, but of course, before we get into that. One more trivia question. Trivia, dude. This question comes to us from listener Rayhan. He says...

What was the first iPhone to have a gyroscope? And what was the demo that Apple used to introduce the tech? Two points. Two points on the board. I remember the demo. The beer. Do you remember the beer app? I just got a reel about that the other day. That's like, what a tough day. And then his roommate comes in and also cracks one. Sick. Okay. Answers at the end like usual. We'll be right back.

All right, welcome back. We're going to wrap this up with our favorite end of the month monthly segment, Crown and Clown. where we will find something to agree on as the crown of the month, the best thing to happen this month, and find something to agree on that is the clown of the month, the worst thing to happen this month in the tech world. I...

have not brought anything to the table, so I'm open to being swayed. Let's hear what you guys have. I can go first. I don't think either of mine will be voted for. Okay. Well, one, because you guys were all hyped up about a crown that's going to happen in a minute, but whatever. So my clown is...

There was an International Energy Agency report that found data centers made up 1.5% of global energy use in 2024 around the same amount of energy that the entire country of Saudi Arabia uses that we're using just for data. centers which feels poopy So Google's greenhouse gas emissions increased 48% since 2019. And considering they have a goal of net emissions at zero by 2030, that feels like a much tougher goal to hit now. In fact, last year...

They mentioned, as we further integrate AI into our products, reducing emissions may be challenging due to the increased energy demands from the greater intensity of AI compute.

don't like that yeah i kind of want to look back at all the companies who promised less emissions or less carbon footprint versus the ones that are doing more ai processing so all of them and if they well a lot of them are offsetting it like open ai is doing a lot of the stuff that like apple would be doing if they made their own model so i'm curious about that but anyway this is your clown this is my clown it's just like

These data centers are going to make the crypto mining inefficiencies look like child's play. And all of that so Gemini can tell us a gorilla is smaller than a human. Sounds useful. If you're interested in learning more, we had a whole episode with Climate Town talking about all of these zero emission stuff. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. You should link that. All right. It's not just electricity, too. It's like gargantuan amounts of fresh water because you can't use salt water cooling.

So, yeah. That's a good one, Andrew. Yeah. I mean, this is going to make it sound like I hate all of AI, but like I really hate this part of AI specifically. My crown is Apple having the judge. lay down that sick injunction and basically like that fat beat yeah tim cook chose poorly it was fire So third party developers being able to now point people outside of the App Store to sign up for things and download things and Apple not being able to have such a tight hold on the App Store monopoly.

um their uh ruling not mine uh is i think very good for the ecosystem at large and i think it's a really big move that we will see the repercussions of down the line So I think that is a crown for me this month. I agree. I think that's a great crown. Yeah. What is... You guys have... Yeah, my crown, this is big, guys. In fact, this might be the... Biggest piece of tech news of the decade. Crown of the decade. Crown of the century. iPhone, forget about it. Android, who cares? Guys, final cut.

Pro has adjustment layers now. That's true. I'm in for that one. This is unreal. I mean, it says a lot about...

how excited we are that this program has a 15-year-old's feature, you know, and we're like, thank you, God. You know what's funny? Final Cut's so weird. I... i love and hate final cut yeah final cut has some things that are it's have just been missing or poor about it for so long and if you ask anyone in industry they have lots of things that they hate about it adjustment layer is missing this whole time we had to find like plugins and hacks around

if we wanted to do the same sort of thing. That's annoying. But at the same time, there are reasons. I mean, I still use it. There are reasons why it's kind of amazing. I was just doing a clip in a video that's not up yet, but I have...

like my hands waving around in front of a graphic i have on screen i did a magnetic mask and i i just selected my hand and it was like okay i got your fingers and it tracked my hands perfectly for the entire clip and literally as i was sitting watching it track i was like

Oh my God, this is the greatest masking tool I've ever made, like humanity has ever seen. And it's like accelerated by, you know, Apple Silicon. It's so good. So I actively live with massive upsides and massive downsides of Final Cut Pro all the time. great program, probably 50% of it is completely broken. And also, I just want to say, what was so hilarious is that

They added like four new features in this update and the other three are like so unbelievably stupid and useless. Like they added like the new Quantec Logic reverbs into Final Cut because you know video editors are like... I just really want really nice algorithmic reverb. They added image playground integration. You know what pro users have been begging for? The best generative AI service on the planet. Over my face.

video users are gonna see the heinous image I made of myself with image playground I don't even remember what the third one was but it is the fourth one So adjustment layers, image playground, magnetic mask enhancements. What's better about... It's faster. God, that's so sick. It's so good. Like, that's the thing. It's like adjustment clips, finally. Magnetic masks, oh my God. Greatest thing ever.

image playground like what are you doing like there's a team of people working on this is insane also i will just throw it out there while we're talking about final cut pro Every time I've color graded for the past month, Final Cut, and I save this for the end of my edits now, Final Cut just crashes every 30 to 60 seconds. So I'll just be editing, crash, reopen. Edit for 30 more seconds, crash, reopen.

30 seconds? 30 seconds. I'll get three, four, five clips in, crashes, reopens. How do you finish your edit? Patience. I save my color grading for the end of the process now because I know it's going to drive me insane. When I'm sitting at my desk, I'll just be like... doing whatever work, and I'll just hear, and he's usually standing, and he always puts two hands on.

head down and I'll look over and I'll be like, you're color grading, aren't you? My monitors are empty. You're like, what happened? Oh, you know what happened. Premiere Pro who? I just thought you were stretching. I didn't realize. Every time I'm sighing and my monitors are empty, it's because Final Cut just bailed.

Oh my God. Okay. Does anyone else have a crown? I have a crown that's not going to beat any of it, but did you guys see some of the thing Netflix to dumb? Is that how you pronounce it? You got to do it correctly. Come on. There it is. Terrible name. It's not even out yet, but they showed what they're announcing. And I think this is a really hype lineup of One Piece live action season two, Stranger Things season five, Squid Game season three, Happy Gilmore two.

And a new Knives Out movie. Happy Gilmore. That's a wild starting five. Wait, what is it called? They already have knives out too. It's called glass onion. Yeah, no, I just saw in the like thing. That's funny Sorry. I can figure it out. Wow. No love for too happy to Gilmore. I really thought I hooked on that one. Okay. Squid Game season three. So there's a season two that I missed, huh?

Wait, there was already a season two? I guess so. Was it good? I didn't watch the first one. The first one's very good. Do I have to watch the first one to understand the second one? Probably. I don't know. Hold on. What's the Knives Out movie called? It is called... Come on, baby. Wake Up Dead Man, A Knives Out Mystery. I'm so excited. They can literally just repeat this format forever and I will keep watching them.

I agree. It's so funny and good. Have you not watched any of them? No, I've seen them both. And I'm the only one that thinks they're very mid. Everyone is obsessed with these movies. That one was amazing. I really liked it. Was it amazing or was it just the only murder mystery of the past like five years?

That doesn't mean it can't be amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Glass Onion was still good, but less good than Knives Out. I think the first one was just like this whole new thing and like world that we're introduced into. And it was more of a twist. You haven't seen it, I'm guessing, right? No, no, no. Glass Onion was more predictable. Okay, so that's your crown. Yeah, but I can't imagine how we're beating players in Final Cut Pro because I feel like you guys are so hyped about it. Wow. Yeah.

Interesting. Okay. Any other crowns or clowns you want to nominate before choosing? I mean, I got, well, yeah. I mean, we got an Omega clown. What's that? All right. 23 and me. You may remember in March, we talked about how 23andMe... was gone bankrupt and they were going to have to sell all of their genetic data. And we made jokes about how it was definitely going to be sold to a pharmaceutical company. I'll play the clip right now. Adam, play the clip.

The April clown could be catastrophic. But here we are in March. Nothing's happened yet. It's like, you know what? Mark is like, you know what? It hasn't happened yet. Exactly. April clown. United Health now owns 23andMe. Marquez basically pushed this clown further down the line just so he could... nominate the charger ev with the sound that's true and here we are anyway and so um that has now happened

It has been sold to... What was their name again? Regeneron. Regeneron. 256 million. Which is similar to Pegatron in name only. Wow. But... Yeah, so now my genetic data is owned by a pharmaceutical company. I feel like that has to be the time. No, you did 23andMe? I did it when I was... optimistic about technology. I did Ancestry.com, so I'm not screwed yet. It'll happen, don't worry. Capitalism is not if, it's when. It's inevitable. Capitalism comes for us all.

I feel like Marquez has to vote for that just because he pushed his vote down the line already. I just think it's really funny because we predicted it. We were one month off, but we're counting. That's okay.

I think your exact words were... Oh, we played the clip already. Yeah. April will be catastrophic. Yeah, okay. It could be catastrophic. I think we can... Are we aligning on that as the clown? At least for the clown. Ellis has one funny one. I have one more clown, but I don't think it really shapes up to a company just... Oh, yeah, no, so it's also famous, you know, so of all the companies that are sort of being like we're not a

This company, we're actually an AI company. We're a cool company. We just happened to do this. Klarna has been jumping on that bandwagon. Klarna is like, we're not a bank. We're not a finance company. I don't even know what fintech is. We're an AI company. What? And what's happened? to give people money. In what way are they AI?

Well, they've recently cut their workforce by a couple thousand employees. And then the big clown story for them is on their most recent earnings call, instead of this... CEO appearing. It was an AI avatar. Oh, yeah. The CEO. I saw that. They thought that was a good idea. Yeah. They're an AI company. To do the same thing. This is a company that you can finance your Taco Bell order. I don't think good ideas are flowing. But they're still profitable somehow, which is...

Anyway, Klarna, you're a joke. Sorry, but like... It's just helping younger people go into debt earlier in their life. It's just like, you know, look, I'm sure you guys are really great. No. But it's hard to take a company that helps people finance burritos and then does corny stuff like this. It's hard to take you seriously. Good luck with the IPO. I can't imagine. Anyway, yeah, I've got a feeling I think we have to give it to 23.

Just committing an atrocity. Frankly, an atrocity. So if your genetic data is now owned by Regeneron... We're going to regenerate me. I'm going to make a suggestion to crowning clown. Okay. We should do clowns first because ending on the clown.

sucks way more like to end the episode I'm like so yeah so that's an atrocity so we're saying the best thing is the adjustment layer thing I think we can say the crown is Final Cut Pro adding a 15 year old there's been an adjustment layer plug for like years there's also been like really good roto masking plugins for years but apple's is simply better and it also is an adjustment layer

better well being built in it potentially leaves room for to be improved with metal and like have more optimization etc the same way i was using masking plugins i used one called m roto ai i remember from motion vfx and it was fine it did a pretty decent job but it being built in leaves a way higher ceiling. So it's technically the same feature, but it just works better on the built-in side. So I just think it's going to get better over time. Better than that.

Fire injunction by the judge. Cook chose poorly. I think that's a bar and it's going to live forever. But adjustment layers? Oh, man. The ceiling is so high for adjustment layers. As long as it can stop crashing on you, then we'll agree with you. That would be huge. Final cut is not the crown, but this one feature is. What if the adjustment layer update is what's making it crash on you? Oh, no, it's been crashing for years. It's been crashing for a while. Oh, yeah.

I would be willing to change my crown if, and only Adam Sandler, if you're listening. You want to call the movie Too Happy, Too Gilmore. Yeah. I'd be game. That would be... That'd be worth it. But other than that, yeah, I think it's got to be Final Cut and 23andMe. The great genetic mishap of 2025.

That sounds so bad. There you have it. What better way to kick us into trivia questions? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, and also, by the time you watch this next week, the Switch 2 will have just come out. Nintendo Switch 2. Sorry, by the time you watch the next episode. No, no, if you watch this episode next week, the Nintendo Switch 2 will have been out. Also true. Ignore me.

I just keep thinking about Nintendo Switch. Welcome back to the Ellis Knows Ball tech podcast. Let's see. Today's question is about Korean basketball teams with tech companies in their name. I've got three in front of me. they real or are they fake more specifically which one is fake yep with d being all of the above this is the most backwards which one is real that one yeah which one is real

Which one? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Which one is fake? No, it's which one is fake. I have it in front of me. I'm right. I wrote the question. Oh, okay. I said which one is not real. Got it. Oh. Oh. One of these is fake. Okay. Yeah. Which one is not real? Which one is not real? Which one is fake? And D is all of them are real. Yes, D is this is a truth bomb. It's fake that all of them are real. Is that what it would be? Hit it, Adam. The soul Samsung thunders. B.

The Changwon LG Sakers. C. The Olsan Hyundai Mobus Phoebus. That's it. Olsan Hyundai Mobus Phoebus. Or D. They are all real KBL teams. Took a stab. I knew you guys were going to say D. And so I'll either lose a point or gain a point here. Marquez, would you like to go first? I think the Seoul Samsung Thunders is made up. No, that is a real Korean basketball team. Is it C? We all put D. And you are all... Wrong.

Correct. Those are all real Korean basketball teams. That is bad. Those are bad names. Thank you. KAESportsTalk at YouTube.com. for teaching me how to pronounce all of these Korean basketball team and city names. Quick update on the score. Marquez with 25. Andrew with 14. David in the lead with 29. All right. This question comes to us again from listener Rehan. So what was the first iPhone to have a gyroscope? And what was the demo that introduced the tech? One point each.

Ooh, Marquez does not know. He's stalling. Andrew's staring up at the sky, praying for an answer. Demo. Demo. David's trying to understand how to say the word demo. Demolition. Look at the stupid demo they did back then. God, I don't remember the demo. And flip them and read. What do we got? If it's really the beer, I'm going to be so sad. I said iPhone 3GS. No. And what was the demo? I did the beer app. The beer app? Yeah.

No. Oh, sorry. I said the iPhone 3GS. iPhone 3GS as well? Was it 3G? And I thought it was also like pouring a liquid, maybe like water or something. I don't remember. Was it the gun one? There's no way. Tim Cook on stage. I'm sure iPhone 4. 4. Correct. Oh, wow. Watch out, everyone. I'm coming. He didn't write an answer. I don't know what that is. I was like...

All I can think of is some sort of maps or something like that. I'm surprised the 3DS don't have it. The demo was Jenga. Didn't the iPod... I want to see what this looks like. Didn't the iPod Touch have a gyroscope, the first one? I thought the iPhone touch came out.

Alongside the 3GS. It was either right after or right before. It must have been before the 4 or around the 4. Maybe, but the question was, what was the first iPhone to have? Actually, it was probably around the 4. Yeah, you guys said the 3GS, which does have an... accelerometer but not a multi-axis gyroscope. You can see where we might have gotten that wrong because accelerometers and gyroscopes are very easy to have. But you got it wrong. Similar. Sorry. Yeah. All right. Well.

Congrats, Andrew, on the point. That was huge. He's the comeback train all aboard. But yeah, thank you guys for watching and for listening and of course for subscribing as we know you are. And of course, we'll catch you guys with our next regularly scheduled programming very soon. Yeah. Watch those dishes. Peace. I think they've finished them by now, right? Oh, I got to put them all back in the sink.

Waveform is produced by Adam Molina and Ellis Ruffin. We're partnering with Vox Media Podcast Network and our share of our music was created by Vane Still. Bingo! Let's go! Wait, the added adjustment layers in Final Cut? Officially? Uh-huh.