Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore"

Okay, welcome to the Warrior Saint. I'm Hari Nam Singh Khalsa and I have Puri Piyari Singh with me What we're basically doing is we're inviting you into our private conversations So you can do a little eavesdropping on our private conversation and see what's in there for you. So uh Anyhow, welcome aboard my good friend and Maybe you'd like to let us know a little bit about yourself

So people can get a flavor of, who you are and. where you are and what got you to where you are. Yeah, of course.

So as I said, I'm Gurpiare. I am 30 years old, to be exact. And uh I was born in this very uh like uh kind of industrial city in the south of Argentina, which is Comodoro Rivadavia. uh If any of our listeners ever read Stephen King, it's kind of like being born in one of Stephen King's towns and like one of his main places in his books. uh kind of a very remote place, very harsh, very tough place. But it's also beautiful in its own way. I have learned to love it throughout the years.

I studied English here in my city for a number of years. I studied at uh a language institute, which is the Winlands Institute of Cultures and Languages. And I have been teaching English since I was about 18 years old. started teaching at a very early age and uh I've also done other things related to translation and writing and uh other jobs related to that.

my main uh thing professionally for about 12 years has been mostly language and teaching English to people, both teenagers and adults for the most part. So that makes you about 30. Yeah, yeah, sorry. Exactly. Okay, right. And you're still in Commodore? I am here for now, but next year I am going back to the city of Cordoba in the center, the very center of the country. And why are you doing that?

It's because... artistically speaking, I'm a big lover of the arts in general, not just writing, but I'm also a musician. do acting as well. And, I already lived in Cordoba for a couple of years and the place is just loaded with that kind of stuff. has a thriving artistic scene. Probably the only bigger one in the, in the entire country would be Buenos Aires and, uh It's not only that, Cordoba also has a lot of people I love, you know, I have family there. I have a lot of friends there.

get acquaintances, colleagues. And, although I love my own city, I, I think that, you know, sort of going back there and reconnecting with all of that would be a good move personally and career wise as well.

And when you say career-wise, you mean as a translator? writer. Ah, yeah, because that's the other thing. you know, you're, you're, that's, that's kind of like your real ambition is to eventually be spending most of your time writing. Yes, that would be the ideal, yeah. Are you gonna give up being a translator when you do that? I don't know if I would give it up because I like translating.

uh Right now I am working with a colleague on a translation for a novel actually that we got commissions to do this and I actually enjoy the job. I like working with language and it also gives me a chance you know to connect with other writers as well with the work of other people so I wouldn't be against continuing to do that sort of thing as well as being a writer. And what type of books are you writing?

Right now I am working on a horror story compilation in fact Yeah, well, um I'm scared just thinking about it. uh So what got you interested in that? you know, I know, actually, I know this, you've shared with this before, you know, so you're a fairly highly educated person. But by the way, you know, we, in the past, we've spent time together and you have translated for me in both Cordoba and in... uh In Commodore, yeah.

Commodore, Commodore, I think the first time in Commodore, and they are, I can attest, they're very different places. Commodore is kind of one of these like at the edge of the world civilizations. And I found the people there uh very strong people, but understandably so, just the elements. And I think it's kind of oil country too. So, know, people go in there.

know, mining for gold, so to speak, and trying to find their fortune in the edge of the world and probably sacrificing some things to do that. Because as you say, they don't have a lot of the comforts either in the weather or the culture there that they would get maybe from where they were from. So I found the people there to be very hardened people. Yes. but kind, but survive more like a survivor type of mentality. And then of course, Cordoba was a revelation to me.

I really enjoyed that place a lot, like unlimited cultural opportunities, a beautiful place actually, beautiful part of the country and a livable place. and a lot of youthful energy there. I thought it was a very positive place to be. I mean, it's the kind of place I could see myself living in a place like Cordoba. I could not see myself living in a place like, what's the name of the other? always, Commodore, I always forget its name. I I love to go back to visit, but living there.

Oh boy, that would be challenging. but you know, you were my translator, of course, Spanish is sufficient. I can speak Spanish, my Spanish, but I act stupid so that I get, I act like I'm stupid. So I have the pleasure to work with a translator like you and... have kind of like a comedy act team working. But it works. That chemistry works for me, but actually I'm perfectly fine teaching in Spanish when asked to do that. So, that was a gratuitous fortune that I got to spend time around you.

And then, you know, at times you've shared with me about what you like writing about, what got you... Because that's not everybody's cup of tea. What got you interested in writing about horror? People would look at a guy like me and be going, am I even doing hanging around guys writing horror novels? They have this preconception of how it's all going to be. But why don't you let people know? And I'm forgetting we're in a conversation, so we don't know there's other people listening to this.

remind me, remind me. uh

how you got your interest in horror writing. Well, it's kind of funny. There is a long history to that. You know, I was actually very easily scared as a child. um I was like, I couldn't contend with things like blood or gore or anything like that. Like it would terrify like the lights out of me. um But also at the same time, always Even as a young child, had an interest in monsters for whatever reason, know, like freaky creatures and that sort of thing.

uh I have one particular memory that is strictly related to that, which is that I was very young. think I was like in primary school, six, seven years old or something like that. And we still had DVD clubs here in my city. So one of my uncles rented the original Ridley Scott Alien movie, the one with Sigourney Weaver, you probably know it. And I came walking into the room just as they were watching the scene where the alien comes out of John Hurt's chest.

yeah, isn't that uh the name of the movie was Aliens, no? Alien. Yeah, exactly. And Yeah, I remember that scene. I remember that scene. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, like the thing is that, you I was seven years old, I come into the room and I see this monster popping out of a guy's chest. And I had no idea that I was watching was fiction. Like it was perfectly real to me, you know? So I just ran crying into the room and my mom had to come and explain to me that, like it's a fictional thing.

It's not a real monster. It's actually a puppet that someone is controlling. And when she explained that to me, I was like, what do you mean it's fake? How do they, how do they do that? You know, like how do they manage to make that? And that sort of sparked an interest in, in the, like the mechanics of scaring people in a way.

mostly because On the one hand I find it psychologically interesting, know, like how How you can get someone just sort of sucked into an atmosphere and get them tense like that and also it's kind of the the fictional equivalent of going on a roller coaster ride, you know, it's exciting and People like excitement But horror is not actually the only thing I write. Like right now I'm focusing on a horror book, but it's not the only thing that I like writing.

Yeah, but I'm, you know, and we'll get to the other stuff you're writing because I know it's not the only thing, but I have a particular fascination with your fascination with horror. And because, um you know, it's interesting because it's like, like, like what you were saying, I'm kind of like you were talking about, and I'll talk about it in a second when I was young. Yay! Okay, because I relate to that. really relate to what you're saying.

So when you're saying you're seven or eight years old, and I think there's people who have to be listening in on this conversation on his podcast, right? That ah these kinds, these kinds of books and movies actually are wildly popular and they always have been.

And it's always like kind of curious, like, like what is the attraction there because you would think that like the last thing in the world that people would want to voluntarily experience is terror. Like they're signing on volunteer. Yeah. Yeah. Please terrorize me. Scare me.

Okay. So, so, you know, of course when you're younger or even as an adult, I think very few people like, um, like, uh, have enough care or self-awareness to actually think much about why am I attracted to something that I'm hoping will evoke some form of uh terror or fright? Because that's generally associated with emotional experiences that people seemingly would do anything to avoid.

Yeah. And now they're like actually paying money in the hope that somebody is actually, and if it's a good book or a good movie, you know, in parentheses, it's good. It will have the ability to actually evoke that terror. And the most famous, like you're talking about aliens with Sigourney Weaver, right? So I remember that scene. That's a very famous scene, but that's the scene that you know, people like literally jumping out of their seats, right? And for good reason.

mean, they would, okay, and if it was like happening at a restaurant in Midtown Manhattan, they would have a heart attack, you know? So, uh and most people wouldn't want to have a heart attack, right? So, ah what do you think the attraction is for that? And we were not getting like totally, you know, into philosophical or psychological, like, Just on a very simple level, what do you think the attraction is?

Why would people be seeking out an emotional experience that you would think that they would do anything to avoid?

I think that um there is a component of thrill-seeking there. There is that. Because um people, if they want to get scared, they want to do it in a way that feels safe.

Because you go watch a horror movie, or you read a Stephen King novel or whatever, and it unsettles you, or it... it causes discomfort in you, but it does show in a way where you know you are not actually threatened by the experience, which is different from, for example, going out and climbing the Everest, which is also a thrill seeking behavior, but it's certainly much more threatening to your physical integrity to do that.

Right. So I think there's a component of thrill seeking and also On a more profound level, although I don't really know if this applies to most people, but on a more profound level, I would also argue that horror as a genre of fiction is often transgressive in a way that other forms of art struggle to be. And I think that there is an appeal to that. It's certainly an appeal for me. mean by transgressive? Well, I'm going to give you an example.

uh recently, this very year, this great movie by Ryan Coogler came out. It's called Sinners. is name of the movie. And the movie starts as a kind of historical drama about, you know, racial discrimination in the South in the early 20th century, you know, It has a lot to do with uh black American history and the development of the blues and how blues was a coping mechanism for black people and a way to create community. And then a bunch of vampires show up in the middle of the movie.

ah And somehow Ryan Coogler actually manages to tie in the appearance of the vampires with concepts like uh cultural assimilation like the main vampire in the movie is essentially a stand-in and a symbol for cultural assimilation for the sake of survival for the idea of leaving behind your roots in order to survive in a culture that is not your own and the vampire kind of represents that.

And the movie gets into all of these really fascinating historical and cultural points without moralizing about it because it doesn't moralize about it, it just kind of exposes you to these ideas and then goes, hey, this is a nice thing to think about, right? And I found it very rich on multiple levels because yeah, there is vampires and there's blood and there's people eating other people and whatever, but that's not the core of the movie.

That is just basically a little spice on top of the meal, which is actually all of the social cultural stuff that's going on in the film. That is the actual uh big meal there. You Okay, so that's an example of being transgressive.

I would say so. I would say so. You know, it's interesting you kind of got me hooked on this. And I'm hoping our future conversations will be like this is like, we can just find ourselves in a place as tourists and accommodate ourselves to that place, you know, and visit it, take a visit there. I actually hope that our conversations go to some kind of uh sensitive areas, controversial areas.

And I'd like to actually, like any good conversation, because I love, mean, there's nothing in life to me. You know, I've done everything, I really have. But at 73, which I am, I've actually run out of things that I wanted to do because I honestly could say I've done everything I've ever wanted to do plus, and

There's really very little out there that either I haven't done and it's still interesting to do, you know? And so I'm hoping that, you know, we're kind of situated in different uh places in life, as far as time and space.

And so, you know, to me, as I said, I, of all the, it's really odd, because it would sound like it's boring, but to me, of all the things I've done in my life, the thing that probably gives me more pleasure than anything, it doesn't matter including sex or whatever you wanna call it, the thing I get the most, actually the thing I get the most pure pleasure from in anything in life is a good conversation. I can say that without any hesitation. It's like, and you know what?

It's like, give you an example, I mean, you know me, I mean, I love food, I'm a real foodie. oh And nothing actually tops having a great conversation in a great restaurant and having great food. There's nothing even close. mean, that's like pure nonstop pleasure, getting the opportunity to speak with a really interesting person and engage very deeply with that person, learn something from it, share something. and also share great food at the same time. That's like the best thing in the world.

actually, you know what got me into, I'm diverging from the horror, which I wanna go back to, but it reminds me kind of uh circling back to how we are where we are today. Now, I saw a movie. because you're talking about movies here. I saw a and I think it was, I don't know the exact year, but it was in the early 80s, which, you know, now that's like 40 years ago. I can't believe it. You know, I can't believe that, you know, things I was doing, it's like 40 years later. How did that happen?

So it's 40 years ago and there was a popular movie. It was an already kind of movie. Mm-hmm. I believe the name of the movie was My Conversation with Andre. And it was, the entire movie was a conversation between uh two men, uh middle-aged men, in a Manhattan, nice Manhattan restaurant. You know, the kind of, when I say a nice restaurant, to me, you know what a nice restaurant is to me? It's not even the food. uh A nice restaurant.

is a restaurant that lets you spend the evening there speaking and is not looking to kick you out of your table. that's a nice restaurant. There is no pressure like we gotta get out of here. They need that table for the next customer. A nice restaurant is, you're comfortable just, that's actually your evening entertainment. It's not like what you do before you go to the movies. That is your night's entertainment, is. hanging with interesting people for the evening at that place.

And you're spending, it's more expensive because you're paying for the privilege of sitting in a very nice place with usually very beautiful furniture and beautiful, it's very, everybody, it's a certain ambiance, okay, and the food is in accoutrement. And, but actually it's, the whole thing is really about the conversation.

And so there was this movie called, I think it was My Conversation with Andre is that uh it was like a, between like a very sophisticated, um a self, not like arrogant, arrogant, but a person a little full with themselves, very successful. highly educated and comes off as being like, you know, above people, but not in like a super arrogant way, but a little condescending.

And Andre, who happened to have dinner with this guy is actually not very sophisticated, not really highly educated, but... educated enough where he was probably like an accountant who made a decent living.

So he had an education, he had a job, he was a nine to five person, and he on the surface would seem to be not nearly as interesting as the guy who he was sitting opposite to who had traveled the world and had very interesting stories and seemed to be living like the but as it turned out in the movie, ah This guy Andre, who seemed to be very simple and unsophisticated, actually had a certain type of wisdom that the other person didn't have.

And the other person, who seemed like they had everything, by the end of the movie, was really caught off guard in how uh unfulfilling their life was. And it was an interesting conversation between two men, and it took... It was interesting because the conversation was organic. It started off like one guy just sharing all the great experiences and the great life he has and the other guy not even knowing what to say because he felt he had very little to share.

But by the end of dinner and you're going through like the appetizer, the main dish, the dessert, right? And by the time dessert is the whole thing kind of shifted is that the guy who seemingly had everything was feeling inadequate. And the guy who seemed like he had nothing seemed to have a very kind of uh realistic understanding about life. And the other guy could recognize this. And I don't know what it was, but I really connected with the movie and I was really into their conversation.

And it got me into, later in life, unabashedly, me listening into conversations of other people in restaurants. And without any shame, without any shame, because I just, had this kind of interest in kind of like what was going on in these conversations, uh how people lie to each other, you know, the games they play, the interesting stories. And I got to the point that I was fine uh inviting people into my conversations so that they can either participate or just listen.

I didn't have anything to hide. So, uh So anyhow, as I diverge... Uh, yeah, a good conversation is something that's going to give me pleasure and I'm going to learn something. And, ah and I like having conversations with people who don't have a lot in common with me because, uh, they may know something. I don't know if I, if I'm around people like myself, or I feel like I like myself, it's, it's nice, but I'm not going to learn anything new.

So, I normally don't talk to, I'm coming full circle here. I, I normally don't have the pleasure of. uh

uh speaking and listening about uh horror movies, because there's nobody in my day-to-day life who would talk about things like this other than you. ah But it's an interesting thing, because on some level, we all can relate to these things. I'm very, I think, you know me, I'm really interested in what make people tick. Yeah. on a psychological, theoretical thing, but what's behind people's, why do they do what they do?

uh so we know that horror books and horror movies and all these things are very popular. Now, the two things that came to mind when you started talking about this was, One is that you kind of related it to thrill seeking. That you brought up thrill seeking, which I, it was interesting. Now you bring up two parts of my life when I was younger. The second part, like when I was in my 30s and 40s.

I was, and even into my late 20s, I'd say from my middle 20s to my middle 40s, I'd say I was a thrill seeker. I climbed many mountains. I was an alpinist. I climbed all the tall mountains in the United States. uh I uh like motorcycles. And I liked bungee jumping. And I jumped out of planes. I jumped out of, you know, I. parachutes, parachutists, and the people around me thought I was crazy.

But I just find interesting this parallel between horror movies and thrill seeking, and I never thought about it before, but they must share some common ground in your mind for you to have brought it into the conversation. Because people generally don't speak about them in the same breath, but you did. And so where do you think the parallel is between, and again, what exactly is thrill seeking? So to me. And you could call gambling thrill seeking. That's true.

Yes. And because people are looking for some kind of experience, but I think that, and it'll come into other conversations of ours, is that, think that, and it was interesting, the other thing you said about people doing something that's safe. So it's almost like, And even the thrill seeking is like they're not jumping out of a plane without a parachute, they're jumping out of a plane with a parachute. Right. Okay, okay.

So if they jumped out of a plane without a parachute, that would be real thrill seeking. The last real sickening you would ever do. Right. but that would be the ultimate thrill seeking, right? I mean, if you actually jumped out of a plane with, okay. so, um and then you can see that people who get into like gambling, they start getting, they start gambling more and more to get the same uh thrill because it's almost like they wanna be scared.

And so it's almost like, without overanalyzing it too much. It's almost like people want to get close to death, but they're too scared to die. But they're not too scared to kind of try to get close to the fire without getting into the fire itself. But that there is something about them that's... uh

intrigued with the idea of uh annihilation and the only thing that they think is available to them in life is some high risk uh activity that will put them in contact with this, but with some guardrails hoping that they're not actually going to annihilate. And the horror stuff, think is like, like you said, I don't think it's exactly the same, it's like, you really get down to like, what actually is the terror?

What is the, I mean, I'm talking like, not the movie, like, or the book, but what is the feeling, like what is the terror of, even if they're knowing they're somehow protected? But in the end, ah which always brings in like religious and spiritual uh concepts is that ah ultimately people are afraid of dying. And so the most successful horror movies are not only, it's not only that people are gonna die, but they're gonna die in some horrific way. But they almost have to be shocked.

to like some disturbing point to actually feel that kind of fear, but they wanna feel the fear that they're paying to get into the theater to feel that. it's, this is super interesting. yeah, so the two interesting things from my past is that, yes, I don't do that really anymore. I don't do that anymore. But there was a couple of decades that I... sort out experiences that would basically put me into like a death threatening, mean, I, you know, I'm volunteering to jump out of a plane.

No, I'm volunteering, nobody's forcing me to climb a mountain on a rope in 20 below zero weather. I'm choosing to do that, okay? But for what purpose, you know? So, So I did, but I think that the other thing you said is that when I was seven and eight, I really liked the horror movies myself. And those were the only movies I had any interest in. And I remember having babysitters come over. And of course I was like, said my parents would be out.

you know, I was the spoiled seven or eight year old son. You know, they're paying for a babysitter to basically watch over me. but it's still my house and I get to choose what's on the TV. So I get to choose horror movies, right? And I still remember the very first horror movie I ever saw. And it really fascinated me. And back then, the difference between the horror movies now and the horror movies back then is that it was much more difficult for them. to create like a believable scene.

you, you, know what, the best, best analogy is like pro wrestling, you know, to me, is that, okay, okay, so everybody knows that it's not real. It's real, it is what it is, but everybody knows that the outcome is already decided. It's fixed. yes. Yeah, but the people observing it, the people who are putting on the show, they're the actors, and the people who are in the theater or the stadium or the arena are willingly allowing themselves to believe something they know doesn't exist.

because they, okay, and they're getting better and better at making that possible because it looks more more real. Okay, and it's that way in wrestling and it's that way in movies. Okay, so I remember seeing the attack of the 50 foot woman. Oh, that's an old school one! Right, right! That's right, well yeah, because I'm old. And I remember being seven or eight and willingly letting myself believe that this was actually true.

You know, I was giving them permission to convince me that this was actually something that could actually happen. And I remember that, and actually I remember it was every Saturday night, and there was a TV series in black and white back then, right? It was called Chiller Theater. Right? And every Saturday night they'd have Dad or the Blob or these old classics. uh movies, that sort of thing. And as a young kid, these things gave me, ah you know, nightmares.

Right. Yeah, but I was willing, I was like signing on for that. So it's really interesting. It's like, at seven and eight years old, why am I signing on to something that's gonna have me uh have a nightmare? I'm not trying to like overly analyze myself, but it's like super interesting. It's like, like, uh you know, it's like kind of like you said, like the human nature is like.

You know, why would, I mean, you know, it's funny because you read in like the real news about, you know, terror attacks. And that's the thing that people are justifiably very spooked out about. It's like, I'm in an airport, there's gonna be a bomb, and they're really, I could be anywhere, and you know, yeah, but they'll pay money to go to a theater to watch somebody else get blown. Yeah, yeah, no, that's proof.

Or they'll be on a plane and they're needing a drink because they're kind of scared that somehow the plane, I'm flying in this little object, 50,000 feet above the air and there's no protection and this plane could go, one engine and the whole thing could go down, right? But they'll pay money to watch a movie where somebody else's plane goes down. So it's kind of very odd.

And watching that will trigger their own fears. And it's just so interesting about, to me, it's kind of going back to you saying like, where you got your interests, but I got my interest in that about the same age you did. Well, you know, it's like uh I have worked with children as a teacher. I have worked a lot with kids throughout the years, both younger children and teenagers, early teenagers. And my experience has always been that for the most part, children love to get scared.

And it's funny and it's also kind of weird because like uh You get all of these little munchkin kids, you know, who are like seven, eight years old. And, uh you know, like, for example, I do narrations of stories, you know, I like narrate horror stories that are events and things like that. And working at the Institute multiple times, I have kids coming up to me, like a little eight year old boy, like pulling on my shirt going like, hey, mister, when are you going to read us a post story?

Or when are you going to tell us? uh like the Mask of the Red Death by Edgar Allan Poe, whatever, and this is like an eight year old making this request, right?

um And it's funny because, you know, you could argue, you could argue that children haven't yet developed, you know, the sense of gravity that is often associated with things like death and horror and gore and whatever like like they like it doesn't have that much weight in their mind because they haven't been faced with those things in a more tangible manner.

ah But then as you say, you got adults who are arguably more conscious of the world and how it works and all of the like the already scary things that happen in it. And as you say, they still want to go to a theater and pay to see Hereditary and get, you know, the crap scare out of them. So, I like, I don't know, I think it goes beyond any kind of uh rationality.

Like, I don't think there is an explicitly rational or psychological explanation for probably even mental health professional came up here and and discuss this they could give us some sort of more empirical reason for this but to me it comes down to the fact that as you say as you say people want to have intense experiences they crave that they crave that because it's sort of a way of fighting against the dullness of mundane life

But they want to do that in a way that doesn't actually threaten them. Like it's all a theater, very much. Yeah, but you know what? By the way, by the way, I mean, you could probably predict this and I already know what I'm going to do tonight, okay? But you know who my favorite author was as a kid. your favorite author as a kid- i don't remember sir you guys- school, my favorite author. By far. Who was it? No, I don't recollect. Edgar Allen Poe. you're a poll fan, right?

Right, right, right. Absolutely Edgar Allan Poe and I remember The Raven, know, Nevermore, Nevermore, all that. And I'd be reading it and I felt like I was in a world by myself because I'd be telling friends or family about how great this was and people thought I was a very strange kid. And then of course when I was an adult I learned and... was not surprised that Edgar Allan Poe was absolutely insane and that he suffered from mental illness and uh alcoholism and all that.

But that's not a surprise either, you know, but he's very talented. And it's kind of interesting that I was reading Edgar Allan Poe when I was in second and third grade. And I actually haven't picked it up since, but tonight I'm gonna go back and read it, because this conversation's kind of really kind of picked my interest in kind like the connection between, you know, people's kind of desire for that kind of feeling, like what's behind that.

And... uh Without you know me I don't like to overanalyze things psychologically theoretically but but I I just want to like to get to some bottom line understanding of things and I think that's a really interesting why why. I remember one time you know I've got a sister you know. And I this is back when I was in like college or law school. And she came home one night and she, we were still living at home during the college breaks. And she looked seriously freaked out.

Like seriously freaked out. And ah I mean like shaking. And I, you know, I wouldn't consider myself a very wise person at that stage of my life, but I could see that she was emotionally disturbed by something. And she was crying. So I'm going, what happened? She said, well, I just went with my friend to see the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Which was a... And it really... But it's not like she left the movie, she sat through the whole thing.

So at some point she just... I mean, that's kind like the odd thing. And I even remember saying to her, well, if it was as bad as that, why did you stay till the end? Okay, and it was kind of like the answer was something at that stage in my life I couldn't wrap my head around was that she basically was saying that she couldn't, that she didn't have the ability. And so that kind of like, yeah, yeah, but I didn't have the self control to going, this is really not good.

This is not affecting me badly. I gotta leave the theater for my own mental health. but she couldn't leave and by the end of the movie she's a mess. And chose to be a mess, just, or didn't have the self-discipline to get up and leave. so uh it's kind of just interesting the hole that this has over people and why they would subject themselves voluntarily to something. I mean, if it was in real life, I mean, it was kind of like.

happening on a nearby neighborhood corner that somebody was tearing somebody's head off with chainsaw. People wouldn't be putting a chair down and eating popcorn to watch it, or maybe they would. Yeah, but people are very strange.

You know, um like this is what you're saying here, um because I hate to be self-referential, but you know, in my case nowadays, I mostly don't watch horror movies for the thrill of it, because I've been kind of desensitized to them. Like it's very hard. uh to disturb me nowadays. can probably count the examples in one hand of the movies that have come out in the last 10 years that can actually disturb me for real.

uh Nowadays, I mostly watch horror movies because I like engaging with all of the artistic trickery that goes into them. Uh-huh. I like looking at all the little resources, all of the little things they pull to actually create an atmosphere of fear. uh I love movies that use practical effects in particular instead of digital. love big monster puppets. I love that sort of thing.

uh And I also do that because for my own work as a writer, I watch them not only as entertainment, also as a source of knowledge. I like to learn from them. So for me, it's not really any more like a thrill-seeking thing. It used to be when I was a kid, a teenager, but now for me, it's more about the artistic appreciation. I guess I kind of tend to watch horror movies in the same way that another person watches like a documentary, I guess.

Well, do you think that's common among the people who are well known in that field that at a certain point they're just interested in what they can create rather than necessarily intending they're wanting to scare people? Or more is it that they get kind of desensitized to it and now they're into the art making of I think there is a good chunk of horror fans who are in the more of the art making aspect of it.

I've been to many forums, subreddits, I've been to events and a lot of people are kind of intrigued with the mechanics of horror and there is a lot of artistry that goes into making an actually good horror movie. Like there is this film by this guy called Ari Aster that came out a few years ago. It's called Hereditary. It's a very intense horror movie. There's barely any gore or anything like that, actually.

It doesn't have a lot of violence, but it's a very like a constant oppressive atmosphere throughout the whole entire thing. And he does a lot of things that are interesting as far as cinematography goes.

He plays a lot with angles he plays a lot with the ways that lighting is set and it's all done with the express purpose of disturbing the viewer but there is a lot of work behind that like it's it almost reminds me you know stanley cubrick the guy who made the shining right so it's it's that same kind of meticulous was just in, like two weeks ago, I was actually in the hotel that he filmed at. You kidding me? You went to the Overlook Hotel? No, it's there's no such thing as the Overlook Hotel.

It's the Timberline Lodge. Yeah, it was just in that two weeks ago. There you go, and how was it? Oh, I've been there many times. It's in Oregon. you know, spent a lot of my life in Oregon. So uh it's a beautiful place. It's up on Mount Hood. And you get this fantastic view. I'll send you pictures. uh I'll send you pictures of the real Overlook Hotel and the views from it. Yeah, it's really beautiful place. And you know, I can understand why that was with Jack Nicholson, right?

So that's, uh yeah. So yeah, I've been up there many, many times. So it's a real beautiful place. Yeah, I think so. So about horror, it doesn't necessarily have to be in the next conversation, but it's some conversation. and you're the expert in this more than me, is that it's a really fascinating subject about horror and people seeking out terror voluntarily.

And so I'm kind of interested in maybe a future conversation, really kind of understanding whether And you're saying it's human nature for people to seek this out. Okay, so let's assume that not everybody, but large numbers of people seek this out. And the question is, like anything, I mean, you can talk about anything in life, okay? ah The things that doctors recommend and things doctors don't recommend, do whatever, but any human activity, it's kind of like, Is it therapeutic?

Is it on some level naturally therapeutic? Is it actually helpful? Or is it inherently dangerous? Or is it some combination of the both? But if it's a combination of both, what type of self uh restraint and self discipline would be involved? ah Because I think those are really interesting issues because Ultimately, issue is what's the effect of this on human beings?

I would argue that for a good number of people who seek out this kind of thing, there is an element of catharsis to watching a horror movie or experiencing a horror narrative because most of the time, or yeah, I would argue that most of the time, even if people die unhorribly throughout the narrative, there is generally someone who makes it at the end.

is usually like uh in slasher films like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre which you mentioned or the Friday the 13th movies or the Nightmare on Elm Street ones there is this cliche which is the idea of the final girl is what it's called like that's how they know the final girl which is like usually a lady who gets to the end of the movie and actually manages to defeat the monster by using her smarts and her, you know, relentless will to survive.

And that's what usually the cathartic component of this kind of story comes into play, which is having someone who actually survives the horrific situation and manages to triumph over the monster. regardless of the circumstances and that has a very big cathartic component for audiences.

No, one reason I'm asking, you know, from some of our time together is that you've not only been a translated for me and me giving public addresses and classes, but probably even more importantly, you've been a translated for me and giving personal consultations with people about stuff going on in their life. And so the interesting thing is, you know that I'll use anything.

at my disposal at any given moment, even if it doesn't seem at times appropriate or doesn't seem logical, but somehow I go, hey, how about throwing this in here? And I guess the interesting thing for me to learn from you, and it doesn't have to be today, but in the future, maybe you give us some thought, is that

If there is something that consciously or unconsciously has led you to this and is somehow been helpful to you or others, there may be an instance that I, if I was as tied into it and knowledgeable about it as somebody like you, that maybe even I would. actually have somebody dip into that because it would be in their interest to do that. And I'd be like the last person in the world they think would recommend that.

But, you know, it doesn't matter because there's always something for every situation. And the thing is, is that, I mean, I guess this is where all these conversations will go in time, is that ultimately, To me, this is my personal opinion, the only thing of value that we do in the world is things that will be of help to other people. And I'm not saying that I don't deserve to have a pleasure in my life because I do. But that doesn't give my life meaning.

The fact that I'm going out, I'm gonna enjoy the beach today, that's great. I'm not gonna deny myself the pleasure, you know, of running into the ocean and seeing the seagulls. fine. Okay, ah and I do that for myself and my pleasure, and that's fine, but it doesn't add any tremendous meaning to my life. The meaning to my life comes from anything I do that basically adds value to other people's lives. That's what I've learned. And that can happen in one of a million ways, okay?

So the thing is, that uh I'm fine with anything. I'm fine with horror movies, okay? And I'm fine with putting people in contact with the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, if necessary. If in some way for some particular person, that would be helpful, okay?

And I'm not excluding that possibility because I'm pleading ignorance here is that one the things I got out of this conversation, which is always the bottom line for me is like, ah I'm really interested in human nature and I'm interested in playing in the game of human nature, okay? And so I think we've, we're not talking so much about horror as we are human nature and that's that's an element of human nature that people don't usually talk about this openly.

And I think it's an interesting subject to talk about. And you can see even in my own life, mean, as a kid I was reading Edgar Allan Poe and watching the attack of the 50 foot woman. And so it's not like it's not in the fabric of my life. Of course it's in the fabric of my life. But it's interesting to understand, okay. how can I take that experience and knowledge to basically help other people in their life?

that's, and so basically if it has any therapeutic value to it, okay, I'm not like crazy for the word therapeutic, that's kind of another thing, but let's just say, if somehow putting some particular person in contact with that experience, will help them move forward in their life, I'm more than open to doing that. But if putting people in contact with that is 100 % of the time unhealthy mentally and emotionally, then I won't do that. Oh, I won't do that.

But I'm more interested in what the possibilities are than just closing the door on something. I have an open mind about It's not anything I've done recently, but you kind of really picked my interest in this, picked my interest in why I was attracted to it as a child, why I was a thrill seeker as a young adult. How that ties into my life today, that's a value.

and what I can do with that information to be of help to other people in some way, but I'd have to have... deeper understanding of it and you're a person who does, you know, so you're a very good resource for this. So, anyhow, we'll continue. You know, we're going to try to keep these things to an hour because we could talk for five hours, obviously, on these things. It's too interesting.

You see why tech gets so much pleasure out of these conversations, but this was like one of the best conversations I've had in a long time. So I really am grateful. I mean, normally I don't talk about this shit, you know? And so it's great. And I'm hoping this is what it'll be. You know, we can talk once a week and we can forget that we even have an audience and we can talk about whatever we want to talk about because it's all good. I mean, there's nothing that's not good. It's all good.

And it's all good if we can like... uh come out of it with a better understanding of ourselves and the people around us. And so we can be of help. So it doesn't matter why it gets us there. I remember when you originally told me about your love for writing horror books and things like this kind of thing. And my only reaction to that was, that's interesting. I want to find out more about that. That's all. was like 100 % my reaction is that, wow, that's, I don't know anybody.

I know people doing a lot of stuff. You're the first person I personally have met who is dedicated to it like that. So you're my doorway to understanding something that uh I wouldn't know about otherwise. And um maybe even out of it, you'll even get to love it more and have even a deeper understanding of it. So um it's all good. It's all good. know, um

We'll talk about whatever we're gonna talk about. I know this next week I got a lot of stuff on my table that's gonna be worth talking about, that's usually what we'll be talking about, what's just going on in our lives. And today was about horror. yeah, excellent. But I will say just wrapping up that thanks, thanks to everyone who took the time to sit in on our conversation. And we hope it was entertaining and informative and we're hoping to.

talk about all kinds of things that you wouldn't expect us to talk about. And we really appreciate you spending this time with us, and we'll see you soon. We'll see everyone soon and thank you everyone for being here with us.