Music.
Welcome back to the War Against weeds podcast. My name is Alyssa Essman, Weed Science extension specialist at Ohio State, and today I'm joined by my co host Sarah Lancaster, Weed Science extension specialist at Kansas State. Good morning, Sarah. Good morning, Alyssa, today we have two guests to talk all about a topic that is creeping up on us.
We're expecting kind of an early harvest here in Ohio, and so we're starting to think about those fall planted cover crops, and we're curious to know some situations when cover crops might actually become weeds. So we've taught two guests with us today, Dr Travis legleiter at University of Kentucky. Travis, you want to tell us a little bit about what you do there?
Yeah, thanks for having me on again. My name is Travis Legleiter. I'm the extension weed scientist at the University of Kentucky, and based in Western Kentucky and Princeton, Kentucky. And I specialize in weed control in corn, soybean and wheat here in Kentucky.
Awesome, thank you so much for joining us. We also have Logan Simon in the Kansas area. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what you get up to in Kansas?
Sure, yes. So I'm Logan Simon. I am a southwest area agronomist with Kansas State University based in southwest Kansas, Garden City, southwest Kansas, in my role, I am a all crops agronomist for the Southwest area, with my hands in wheat, grain, sorghum, corn, cotton, soybeans, canola and the list goes on.
Certainly more, uh, diverse than what we typically see in Ohio, maybe in Kentucky. Is that right? Travis, that's right. So for this topic, lets uhh Yeah, you were talking about some things that we don't see a lot, in Ohio that. Well, I think we'll get into here in this conversation. So kind of starting at the top here, you know, at least in our area, cover crops are becoming increasingly interesting to growers for some incentive programs and for some of the benefits that they're suggested
to have. So I guess from your guys's perspective, you know, what are some of the reasons that folks are using cover crops in your regions? Logan, you want to start off with this question,
sure. So when with cover cropping in western Kansas, it seemed like early on, there was a lot of interest in cover crops for weed suppression, and it that certainly was driving the conversation. For me, for quite a while, we've got herbicide resistant Kochia, which is very much a Great Plains we for us, and then Palmer Amaranth that we all face, or many, day by day, more and more of us face, but really it's been interesting to see that conversation then
shifts to soil conservation and residue management. We're a dry land semi area, dry land region. Most of my guys are going to be averaging in that 18 to 22 inches of annual rainfall. And so residue management's really important as we think about managing our soil water resources. And so that has really been driving things. But today, reasons for cover cropping. This is southwest Kansas, and our economy is
driven by beef, and so utilizing cover crops for for grazing. At this point in the game, I usually say if, if somebody in southwest Kansas, is cover cropping. They're probably grazing. Yeah,
that's, I think that's so interesting. It's a little a little different than maybe what we get up to on the eastern portion of the country here, Travis, you want to tell us a little bit about some of the reasons, like growers these cover crops over here.
Yeah, yeah. So in Kentucky, you know, cover crops are usually used a lot for their soil retention abilities, right? So we are a in this region a lot of no till acreage. And even at that, even with no till, if you leave a field barren over the winter, you can lose some soil. So we're certainly, we're not flat, and we're getting much more rain. So having those cover crops go a long way in retaining that soil
system. So a lot of times that's really the driver for that. But also, you know, the benefits of, you know, if it's the right cover crop of weed suppression go a long ways as well. So those are usually the primary factors for us.
So curious, Travis in your part of the world, how many guys would be grazing covers in addition to just using them for the conservation benefits?
We've got plenty of forages and beef in Kentucky. Most of the times, those are almost completely separate. You know, guys are, this is my forage area, or my forage fields, and these are my road ground. So we don't see, yeah, that that is something we don't really deal with. So it is very interesting to see the extreme or the differences between, you know, the kind of eastern part of the current region and out the Logan's area?
Yeah, I would agree with that for us here. And I think maybe, you know, I've get questions about it, and it is an option. I think we just don't have the infrastructure set up to necessarily support that in some ways. But it's interesting to, yeah, hear some of these differences. So speaking of what, what does adoption look like in your region? How many folks are using cover crops? Logan you want to start us off?
Sure, sure. So like I say, Our region is semi arid. Again, that's one that 18 to 22 inch rainfall zone. And so our climate really drives a lot of a lot of this conversation. And so in that way, I was just ahead of this, this podcast. I was looking back at the 2022, Census of Agriculture, and what I saw there was that we're kind of averaging, like about like 5% of
cropland acres. Seeing a cover crop in most of our counties, it's, it's not huge by any means out in our part of the world, largely driven by this, this water, this water question, however, it was interesting to look at that, and it really confirmed my my feeling on it was that in some of our counties in the southwest, where we have some of those sandier, highly erodible soils, we see a little bit higher adoption there were heavily affected by wind erosion. So cover on those sands
are is really important. And then a lot of my irrigators on an irrigated acre, if we're growing cotton or soybeans, it's very popular to cover crop in those systems, just especially cotton soybeans, both low residue crops, and as I say, residue management is the name of the game in our part of the world. So Cover crops are pretty compatible in those systems, and so we see a little bit higher adoption in those areas.
One of the other things I think is interesting about Kansas, and this is outside of kind of Logan's sphere of direct influence down there in the southwest corner, but we have the city of Wichita right behind Kansas City. It's the largest city in the state of Kansas, and their primary water source sits in a very agricultural watershed, and so they are watching runoff, contaminants
and ag runoff, really closely. And actually, the last time I looked at that data, Logan that was the pocket of the highest adoption of cover crops in the state of Kansas, and just driven around the incentives and the need to reduce erosion and keep all those agrochemicals out of Cheney Lake.
Absolutely, there's a huge focus in that part of the world around Cheney Lake. Like as as Sarah said, it's, it's, it's a major, major water source, water source drinking water for the city of Wichita, nutrient loading phosphorus, Cheney is. Cheney has a reputation for for that. It's just because it's such a highly agricultural watershed, the Atrazine, the Atrazine question, that's maybe more of a little art watershed, but yeah, and it's been interesting in that
part of the world too, to see folks coming in. I know that there were some General Mills has some different incentives that they're doing with folks in that Cheney Lake Watershed. And so certainly having more of those incentives, really focusing in on that area has definitely driven adoption, I would agree.
So so of those who are using cover crops in your area, what is that, you know, among the more popular species that you have Logan.
So it depends on the rotation in many ways, but for most of our folks in central and western Kansas, where we still have wheat playing a really important role in in the rotation, there's a strong preference for triticale over, say, kind of the quintessential cover crop cereal rye. And so I would say, if you looked out across all of our all of our cover crop acres, triticale, easily rises to the top. But there is some rye out there. Spring oats are popular as well
in many places. And then for warm season that sorghum Sudangrass is very popular, especially as an option to go in after wheat harvest. Also when you think about our area and a lot of the driving, a lot of the drivers behind cover crop adoption, these species are going to be the ones. That are going to produce an abundance of biomass. Biomass is going to be what we need to meet most of our cover cropping objectives,
especially on the grazing side. We're looking to get some grazing days off of these covers, and so going with these productive grasses really helps us meet that objective, along with some potential for weed suppression, then, of course, providing greater ground cover.
So what about you? Travis, what a What does adoption and species selection look like in Kentucky?
Yeah, so and unlike Logan, I didn't do my homework. (laughs)
we can tell who's the sorry Logan, we, can tell who's the new assistant professor here.
Yeah, yeah, exactly so, but so more of a guess, anyways. But I do think we, you know, we've got some pretty decent adoption in Kentucky, and again, a lot of it is because, you know, we've got guys who are heavy no till and really conscious of runoff, whether it's soil erosion or just run off of product, you know, like you guys were talking about Kansas and runoff into your public water systems. I mean, Kentucky, you know, everything dumps into either the
Ohio River or Mississippi from Kentucky, right? So we were really conscious of that. So some adoption is pretty high for that. And depending on you, you are talked to, they might argue that we have a lot of cover crop, if you included wheat as well. We have a lot of wheat acres. A lot of our acres get winter wheat every single year. So we do so I do think we have
pretty decent adoption. I don't know what is really But, and I would say it's increasing for a lot of the reasons you guys talked about, there's a lot more incentives coming right to do cover crops. So as far as species go, I think cereal rye is still the one that most guys go towards for us. You know, you have some legumes mixed in there once in a while. And I said even wheat, sometimes, some fields of wheat that were intended as a cash crop every once in a while, but also we do have wheat that
just planted as a cover crop. So those are probably the big ones. And then, and I'm sure we'll get to this one, every once in a while, get rye grass planted as cover crop as well. Let that be for right now, and I'm sure we'll come back to it.
Yeah, well, we'll come back to that in just a second. So I think you guys really nicely set the stage for why Cover crops are used a lot of times. It's for some sort of soil erosion protection and soil health benefit. And then kind of, in the second tier, there is that weed suppressive benefit. So I'm wondering, if you could describe a little bit how Cover crops are effective at suppressing weeds.
Cover crops, you know, usually, what we're trying to do is build a lot of above ground biomass, right? I mean, if you if you're able to build above ground biomass. You know, over the winter, it's going to be competitive with
your winter annuals and suppress their growth. But also, you know, if you get a lot of that biomass and create a mulch, what you're going to do suppress some of your summer annual emergence as well with that heavy mulch, because you're not getting that light down there to the soil surface that's required to get some of the germination that we need. So, yeah, so that's really how we're suppressing them. And it's just another, you know, we
don't expect cover crops to suppress all weeds, right? But it is a another tool in the toolbox, if you will, to to manage weeds.
Yeah, can I take a bit of a shiny object over here? Alyssa, can I choose it for just a sec? Travis, how do you respond when someone tells you that they have replaced a herbicide application with cover crops?
I think it's usually shaking my head, yeah, so yeah, because I don't, you know, there might be some cases where they could, but we, we certainly don't want to be replacing herbicides with cover crops. We want cover crops to be part of the system and supplementing our herbicides. And that's, you know. And again, I think some of that, you know, people might look at me and say, well, you're still just depending on herbicides, right? But we're helping it out with
that cover crop. And we can't expand cover crops to replace, certainly, help supplement them, so we can preserve those herbicides a little bit longer. These. Way,
yeah. I think the idea is to kind of reduce, maybe the size and density of weeds so that cover or so that herbicides can be, you know, effective for longer. Just kind of the concept, Logan, did you have any additional comments about how kind of these weed suppressive benefits from cover crops?
Yeah, I would second everything that Travis
Yeah, so you brought up some really good said, I would say too that a lot of the lessons that we've learned in Kansas, that I try to stress to my growers is that we need to be mindful from the time that we're when we decide that we're going to go in with cover crops, with weed suppression being one of our biggest goals, we need to be thinking about what weeds were trying to suppress. So for example, at one time, the conversation was, we need cover crops to help us
suppress Kochia. Well, Kochia is kind of an interesting species and a major weed in the Great Plains, but maybe not nationwide in the US. And the thing about controlling Kochia is that if we can get out there with a fall planted cover crop, and get good biomass out there and covering the soil, competing when Kochia germinates and emerges in February, March, we've seen very
good suppression at that time. But if that's not really a good planting window for us, and we try to go out with something like spring oats, which is pretty popular in in the western part of Kansas, the kochia is emerging with the oats. And so what we find is that, yeah, they're smaller than if it was just a monoculture of Kochia, but they're still there. The same number is is out there. And so we really need to be mindful about timing of things. In this case, we're keeping them
smaller. And I think that there's a benefit there for control later on down the road, keeping them smaller, but in terms of the absolute number, they're they're very much still there are another our other driver weed in this in this part of the world, is Palmer Amaranth. And Kochia is different from Palmer amaranth, and that the emergence window is pretty short. So again, cover crops can be pretty effective.
Hit that window, you get good suppression. You're going to get solid control of Kochia that that season, Palmer doesn't work that way. Palmer will continue to emerge all through the year. And so we did have some studies that went out where we had cover crops going into grain sorghum. Another one of our were we think of ourselves as wheat country, but Kansas is the number one grain sorghum producer in the country, at just over 50% of all
grain sorghum. But in that case, we were getting 30 to 45 days of decent in season suppression. But as the conversation had said, Yeah, that does not replace the value of a good pre in that system. I've had a number of people tell me that their cover crop was their pre. No, no, not a not a good idea, especially, like I say, with grain sorghum, our in season options are slim to non existent. And Sarah could talk
more more on that, I'm sure. But especially going after these and working with the crops that are dominant in our region, yeah, cover crops do not replace your PRE. points there. I think one of the hesitancies of using cover crops is just the whole, you know, additional management on top of some costs and other, there's a whole host of things. But I think one of the concerns is just getting able, especially in our region where we do tend to get a lot of springtime rain, is
just getting it killed, you know, around planting. So that kind of brings us to the topic. So what are some ways that cover crops can actually become weeds in our cash cropping systems? Logan, you want to take this one first.
So ways that cover crops become weeds in our cropping systems. With with me, being located here in Kansas, I see it happen more often in wheat that follows cover crops. So that's where we have some challenges with, like cereal rye, because we do have a lot of a lot of growers who face a lot of challenges controlling feral rye in wheat out in this part of the world. And so when we're introducing the cereal rye in there, and potentially adding to that issue, it can be quite a
problem. And we have a very low tolerance for cereal rye. Contamination in wheat that that shifts a lot more growers towards towards triticale. We have a little bit more tolerance there. Though I have seen triticale contamination in wheat result in rejection at the elevator. So in these cases, it's less that the that we didn't get a solid kill on the cover crop, that I think sometimes can be a problem in other systems. In this case, it's, it's seed production.
We're terminating too late, and we're getting viable seed out there that's going on to become volunteer in that subsequent wheat crop. And we really, we really can't have that. Some other ones that we that we try to stay away from, hairy vetch can be a problem in in wheat systems that hard seed, if it gets, if we allow it to go to seed, it can be a problem in wheat for years to come, because it'll sit there and just keep,
germinating and emerging hairy vetch. Adoption out west in Kansas isn't so high, but in central Kansas, that's a conversation. And then the last one that that is kind of another one that's unique to our our system is there was a big, a big deal made. This would have been back in like the '16,'17, time frame with buckwheat.
So buckwheat contamination in wheat was a big concern. And the thing about this was so I and again, doing my homework, there was a big there's a big issue, because Japanese buyers were seeing buckwheat show up in imported wheat from the United States, and they have very strict regulation On on that. I didn't realize this, but buckwheat allergies are actually higher in Japan than globally, with allergies analogous to like
a peanut allergy. And anyway, in Kansas, a lot of our hard red is not necessarily destinated, destined for an export market, but our hard White is and so we have a couple different classes of wheat we grow here. And so for our hard wheat acres or a hard white acres, that buckwheat contamination is something we
Logan, how often do you run across guys get leery about. that essentially tell you that because of their moisture limitations or their precipitation limitations, any cover crop is essentially a weed. Do you get that pushback very often? Oh, does that question make sense? My periphery is a farmer speak,
yeah, it certainly does. It certainly does. And so, yeah, I mean, you can kind of think about it that way. So in our environment, we are water limited. And so our fallow periods, talking with Travis, you know, in Kentucky, they are cropping. As soon as they are harvesting, they go in and burn down and go back in with with their next crop for a dry land acre. In my part of the world, our fallow periods are typically 11 months long, from the harvest of one crop to the planting of
the next. And that's entirely related to soil water capture and storage. Stored soil water to supplement in season. Precipitation is what makes our dry land agriculture work in in this in this water limited environment, and so when we grow cover crops in those fallow periods to achieve whatever our goals are, it's like anything in agriculture, there's trade offs, and our big trade off is water. Our big trade off is the water
use of the cover crop. I've got some growers that will tell you, Oh, well, I'm growing cover crops to conserve water because they are increasing residue cover which does suppress evaporation after the fact, but it doesn't make up for the water use of the of the cover crops. So you're you're exactly right. And I tell you, Sarah, our environment is so variable in precipitation as well year to year that I mean, if I could reliably get a tight 19 every single year here at Garden City,
oh my god, the things I could do that'd be amazing. But that rarely, rarely happens. More often we get those extremely high years where we're getting up to like, you know, 28 inches of rainfall in one year, or, like, back in 22 where we only had eight inches for the entire year. So there's certainly some years where Cover crops are, are are more problematic in that way, than others. You're exactly right.
Sarah, that makes me think of another question we get a lot is, you know, I have all these winter annuals, aren't those essentially a cover crop? So what is your guys's response to that?
Henbit not a cover crop!
yeah, and that's usually I got a little excited, seriously, my example, right? Especially Henbit and deadnettle, those alternate to soybean cyst nematode hosts, right? There's other issues that come up with weeds when we think about comparing them to a cover crop. So how does the sum of this compare to where you're at in Kentucky, Travis?
Yeah, yeah. So, I guess the same question also, so, but yeah, so, yeah. I mean, yeah, for us, you know, a lot of times, you know, it's a couple of different ways. I think when you initially asked this question, you said it really well. Of a lot of times with cover crops, we're trying to do it cheap and easy, right? So sometimes it's, it's forgotten about, you know that it is another crop that we're
going to have to manage. And so, you know, one way that they become a weed and Logan covered on this is we just don't get them terminated in time plan getting them terminated. And in Kentucky, we've been getting, I mean, our winters are getting pretty warm the last couple of years, right? So that lets our cover crops advance a little bit quicker, but in some cases, also lets us get out there a little bit earlier to terminate too. So, you know, it's manageable, especially cereal rye, we can
manage it. We should have to get out there timely to to terminate it. I think for us, a lot of times, you know, cover crops can become weeds, or cover crops can help us bring in weeds in some cases. So, like I said a lot of times we're trying to do it, or I shouldn't say we. There's cases where guys want to do it cheap, right? And it's like, okay, well maybe, maybe I'll just run some wheat. I got some extra wheat in the bin, right? Or my brother knows a guy down a couple counties away that has
some wheat left over. I'll go grab that real cheap rather than paying for it. And then wall law, they end up with some rye grace. So we that they've never had before because they wouldn't grab that wheat from a county. That issue in their wheat, right? So that's just one example. But, you know, we see cases where, you know, if we're not, if we're just buying seed, or, you know, non certified seed, which is pretty hard to
find certified seed, and cover crops, right? But buying weedy seed, you know, we can bring in some of our weeds, and so that's another way it can be. And then, you know, we have cover crops again. We like cover crops that we can just throw out there, and they'll grow in any kind of environment. They're flexible, right? They're easy to grow. Those are same characteristics that make a good weed, weed, right? So sometimes that's why
it also just have a different normal season. That's that's the classic with that hard seed coat, if you let it get by, that seed will last for quite a while. So those are kind of some of the reasons why we end up with some of these becoming weeds, or helping bring in weeds and systems
Travis. You guys have talked about termination. I don't think I'm going to step too much on alyssa's Next question that she's planning here, but how much? I guess, the backstory of my thinking is a lot of times when we get in these cover crop conversations, especially with like the soil conservation and soil health folks, they're
promoting very complex mixtures. Right? Like you guys have both named about four grass species that pretty much check all the boxes that we're thinking of. But there's a lot of folks that like these really complex mixes. So how do you think that changes in the need for how to terminate complex mixes contributes to weeds becoming cover crops. Does that question even make sense?
Yeah, yeah, it does. Because when, when you get those complex mixes, we have to think a little bit more about, you know, you know, what is the timing for that termination, right? So a lot of times, when it's one, one cover crop or one species, we just think about, where does this be set, especially if it's a mix of grasses and legumes or other broad leaves. You know, they might be at varying stages. That makes it difficult to pull the trigger on, what should I be
terminating this right? And then, you know, do I need just glyphosate, or do I need more than just glyphosate? Do I need a growth regulator? You're in there with that, you know, is, do I have some antagonism happening now, right? So it does hit real, complex really quickly with those mixtures, but it's doable, but you have to, again, you have to have kind of laser focus on that cover crop, right? You have to be willing to and also be willing to have some flexibility on that termination
too. So, you know, I've talked to some guys have been really successful with cover crops, and a lot of times they're smaller growers, and they have that ability. And I think sometimes what happens is, if you're a guy that's a much bigger grower, person, it's much bigger. Grow with a lot of acres, sometimes it gets away from you. So you know, you just have to look at your system and what can you handle?
Sarah, I think that's a really great question that kind of leads into my next one. So species mixes, complicates termination. There's another trend that we're seeing, and that's this idea of planting green or terminating after we plant the cash crop, that has a lot of folks interested. To you know pick up those additional benefits from the increased biomass, but you know, we're curious about how that might
play into this topic of cover crops becoming weeds. So Logan, what are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, so again, in my part of the world being water limited on a on a dry land acre, RMA mandates are 15 days for the majority of my counties, except for five far southwest counties, where it's 35 days. Even still, with that being RMA guidelines, sometimes we are following that, but more often than not, we're terminating well ahead of that, because we need soil water recharge from termination to planting, and so a lot of my dry land acres are going to be terminated 60 days plus before
going to The next crop. We have a much wider window, just for again, for soil water recharge and a successful establishment of that next crop. This dynamic does change that. However, on an irrigated acre and so on an irrigated acre, I do see some folks Planting green that has been a popular one, again, in those counties that have those irrigated acres, especially folks growing things like cotton and soybeans, where we're trying
to get that residue right. And so that drives that desire to plant green, get a little bit more time on that, to get biomass produced, to really, really see that benefit in those cases I have, in my experience, I've seen most people, I haven't gotten a lot of a lot of calls on struggle controlling those. Usually, in this case, it's going to be a triticale or cereal rye cover crop. I haven't gotten a whole lot of calls on
on that. But Sarah, as you get east, in the state where that might be more common, I don't know, in Kansas, how much, how much, how many calls we get with struggle controlling in that Planting green weather,
I don't know that we get a ton. And I kind of think the general thinking would be that, if you don't get it, you know, completely dead with that at planting pass, you're going to make a post pass anyway and kind of clean it out. Plus the Rye is already senescing the piece of this story that I think
is interesting to chase down. And kind of wanted to hear you talk about Logan is that, like you said, in that kind of central western Kansas region, we're terminating at a much younger growth stage than we do here in the eastern part, and kind of where our list is going with this question? I think it's just a crazy catch 22 that we're planting these crops for residue, but when we terminate them, how long does that residue
actually last? When you terminate, you know, a cereal rye plant that's 18 inches tall and hasn't started to boot yet, right? Like it's a totally different type of residue than than what we usually think about going for for weed suppression,
yes, and that certainly is more where our conversation lies out here in this part of the world, we are terminating much earlier. We are typically terminating much earlier, and in this case, as as Sarah's mentioning when we're terminating at that stage, you got to think about the C to N ratio of that biomass and how long it's actually going to
persist in our environment. Being a drier environment, microbial decomposition is much slower than where you have higher rainfall, and so I think that really plays to our advantage. We in our area, Travis has mentioned Dick quad. That for Kentucky, we also have a very high rate of no till or very reduced till adoption here and so on a no till acre, we're carrying residue. You can still find it out there in the field
that was was produced two, three years ago. So it can linger. But that would be mature crop residue with a high seed in
ratio. So I think you're exactly right. It really is that trade off between our desire to produce residue while also conserving moisture, because it's it's, it's, it's, it's, it's one or it's one or the other, it takes water to produce, to produce biomass, and so that is a, that is a that's a really important thing to consider is, is that earlier, earlier termination in that way, one thing that I that crossed my mind is, let's see, it was a couple of years ago. There was a
big craze. One of our local guys had got bought himself a crimper and a roller crimper, with the idea that he was going to be the guy that was going to roller crimp everybody's cover crops, and everybody was going to have him come because roller crimping was going to be fantastic. Well, how good a kill do you get with a roller crimper on a triticale or rye crop that hasn't even booted yet. You don't.
come to a couple of extension talks, right?
Yeah, yes. So I did have an on farm study though, that I did these last couple years in and the farmer was in, really interested in, in, in roller crimping. And so we went ahead, and we were like, Okay, we'll take a we'll take a treatment on there. I think, you know, that's fine. It's on his he was generous enough to be our cooperator on it. And in the years that we did cover crops at that site, we never had enough
biomass for all of us. Kind of came together and looked at and we're like, it's not worth bringing the crimper up to we're not gonna kill it. So we, we tried, we tried, I try not to be the negative person all the time. So I was like, Yeah, let's, let's, let's try your crimper. But no, that is something, yeah, that's another thing we really have to, you know, think about is, is how, how big are cover crops really getting out in this part of the world? Do you think you're going
to get a kill with a crimper? No.
Logan, I think you brought up kind of the key word of the day there. And anytime we talk about cover cropping, which is trade offs, it's all about finding the balance of you know, how much biomass we can achieve to meet our goals without, you know, reducing yields or setting seed along these lines. So Travis, what does Planting green look like in your neck of the woods?
Yeah, so it certainly happens, and there's more of it happening, I think, especially with you know, I think similar to all of you guys, guys trying to put soybeans in the ground earlier every year, right? And so again, if they want the bio, they're letting it go a little bit
longer, but getting the beans in earlier. And so Planting green into that, if it's, you know, as you guys been talking about, you know, if you just cereal to rye, you know, usually we can, you know, we can kill that stuff after the beans around the
ground, but you have to have a plan for it, right? And but if it's a complicated mix, it's just an interesting to do, because once your crop is on the ground, you know, even with soybeans and corn, where we have a lot of post options, once it's on the ground, those options really do dwindle, and can become very difficult to kill a cover crops. So that's the risk you're taking by planting green. It's also in shaming, why guys are doing it the other there's a lot of other risks too. I
experienced it firsthand. This year. We had a Planting green trial, and it was all based on time. And I think the listener you probably have the same trial, but there's maybe 20 soybeans out there right now, and that's because we had slugs eight every single soybean. Yeah. So I know this is the wet podcast, but man, the slugs ate me alive on that trial. It was crazy, and that happened a lot, just been earned to Lakers in general. Here in Kentucky this year, slugs and snails are
becoming a big issue. And yeah, they green. They love cover crops. So I learned a lot. Had a lot of conversations with their entomologist.
This year, the pests that literally ate my lunch, literally ate my cover crops a couple years ago was voles. I haven't had slugs yet, but voles have caused mega issues for some of my research along those that same like line of studies,
yep, yep, we've had that too in the past. Keep your eyes peeled for the slugs and snails next. That. But, yeah, but, I mean, it's, it's doable again, going back, you know, you've got a plan, and you've got the acreage that you can do it in, but there's a big risk, and there's a lot of trade offs there too, Planting green. So, you know, the the better bet is, you know, to terminate it, make sure so, and I'll come back
to it. You know, if they're using rye grass at the cover crop, which I highly discourage, you know, that's one that if you don't get it killed before you plant your corn, it can really be a battle, because once the corns out the ground, there's not a lot of options left for us at that point. Again, that's one that we just don't want to deal with.
It's interesting. You mentioned that about slugs Travis, most of our growers who battle slugs are towards the southern portion of the state where our research farm is. It's, I have a personal vendetta against voles. I hate them. They have ruined some of our sites as well. But I think we touched on this a couple of times. But I'm curious if we could talk a little bit about some of the specific seed characteristics of some of the cover crop species that you've mentioned, and how
those can help some of these species become weeds. And part of this conversation, we can also talk about, you know, some of these species that tend to be the most problematic Logan. You maybe want to tackle this first,
yeah, so I think as far as when I think of seed characteristics, kind of the one that rises to the top is the hairy vetch that has the, the hard seed that if we, if we do have it, go to see it's going to stay dormant there and emerge over time, year over year, and just yeah, a problem for for years to come. So things like that, anything that could have some risk of dormancy that we're not going to get one big flush, get a good kill on it, and then move on with our lives. Is
something that's going to linger. That's something that's something to think about. Yeah.
So what species then are you most concerned about folks using, overall in Kansas,
overall in Kansas, for this, for the species? So yeah, like I say, the hairy veg, the and then the issues around the issues around buckwheat, and if we have that contamination, the problems that that can that that can cause another thing, I would say that kind of, again, something unique for us in Kansas, where the vast majority of our cover crop acres are grazed, vetch toxicity is yet another reason why I do not
recommend hairy vetch. Yet, yet another reason, just because we do, we do typically intend to graze, or maybe you didn't start out thinking about grazing, but if fetch is in there, it just kind of erases the whole, the whole chance that you could graze. But then, in terms of getting back to the weedy, the weedy side of things, it's a catch 22 as with everything out here, where it's like, we need biomass. What do we get biomass from triticale and rye? What becomes a big weedy problem?
What can become a big weedy problem in wheat, triticale and rye? So it's, it's one of those things that they, they present a risk, but it's, it's, it's one that we just have to manage and and and be mindful of, because they, they are, they're the ones most likely to carry over and be a problem in in that next, in that next wheat crop. But, but again, they make up the vast majority of our cover crop acres. I don't have as much issue with like spring oats going on to become a problem in
anything. Usually, we can keep them under control, get a good kill on those. And then, similarly, with the sorghum Sudan grass haven't. Haven't had much issue with that. Typically, in the case of sorghum Sudan grass, we're going to be planting that after we harvest and then those are typically frost terminated for us, and because of water limitations, the vast majority of the time that that that sorghum Sudan is
not even going. To flower before frost. In some years it does, but most of the time it does not, and because of that, we avoid some of that risk by with that that timing appeal,
yeah, what I tell folks is Mother Nature's really tells us what to do, but as best we can, timely management in the spring is really what helps us avoid a lot of these issues. So Travis, any species in particular that we should be concerned about when it comes to cover crops,
yeah, so I think I've hinted around. So for us, it's annual ryegrass. So that's the one that you know. It's popular as a cover crop because, again, it establishes well, it grows rapidly. Low ground makes it so before I go any further, you know, I think I used to think that, okay, everybody knows this, but, you know, I always had to step back and say, maybe not everybody does. But you know, zero rye and annual ryegrass are two very distinctly different species,
right? Zero. Rye is, you know, it looks it's the grain type of grass, right? Grows really tall, gets six, seven foot tall, right? Whereas annual rye grass, completely different species, different genius. It's the forage type. It grows really low. It's a great forage. Fire forage specialist always gets on to me. He's like, hey, it's a great forage, terrible weed, but anyways, but it's a low growing forage, bunch type grass, right? So they are two different things, so, but any rye grass
for us in our weed acres, it's it. We've got a lot of herbicide resistance issues with it, and it's getting really bad in our corn acres too, not being able to kill a priority. So it is one that has turned from, you know, again, it has a lot of great benefits as a cover crop, but it becomes a weed very quickly. And sometimes, the way that's happening is sometimes the rye grass that we're buying and bringing in may not all be annual ryegrass. You might have some perennial ryegrass in there
as well, right? And so that's something that's coming up at different times. But also we can bring in some resistance with that seed as well. So a lot of times where this ryegrass is growing for seed, there are native ryegrass species there that have resistance issues. And so there's a couple of different examples here in Kentucky, where guys were heavy ryegrass cover crop growers, and now they're struggling with it as a weed.
And they went from, you know, ryegrass believers, to just, you know, just really not like the whole because it is very hard to deal with and because, and part of it is because, the way it's so hard to terminate, at least for us here in Kentucky, you have to have warm weather to kill it, but you have to kill it when it's small. And you also have to get across the field sprayer in springtime when it's not raining. So, you know, I
would say that's a perfect window. I haven't been to a Graham that shows the middle three need to be a lot of Kentucky springs. That never happens, right? By time we get the nice warm nights we need the ryegrass is too big, right? Or you have the nice warm nights, still the right size, but it's too late, so it can just be a real bear. And even when we hit it just right and have the right herbicides, the right weather conditions, we still have some of it escape, especially on
corn. Rye Grass is very competitive, and it can really hurt some cooling stands. We've had cases where guys had to read. So yeah, it just one of those things that that, yeah, that's the number one on my list. Is rye grass. Great cover crop, even worse weed for us in both our wheat and corn acres. So that, that'll be the one I
I'm curious Travis here. I don't, I mean, I don't see a ton of cover crops ahead of corn in Kansas. How often do you guys have covers ahead of corn?
Not very much. Okay, right? Because, and the ones that we have had have been rye grass. Because, with that one, it doesn't build like, what was talking about the high seed in ratio, right? With ryegrass, we do get some biomass there, but it breaks down really quickly. And with ryegrass, I don't really consider it to have a lot of meat suppression abilities, because it doesn't build that big mulch, right? But that's why guys like it in front of corns, because they could get
rid of it. It's kind of gone. It's not kind of their nitrogen, right? So. But you know, if you you know, when we learn to listen, not to use that as a cover crop. You know, guys don't want to use steroid because it ties up your nitrogen, right? And, you know, there's been some work done here in Kentucky, and it's doable, but you usually have to supplement, get put on a little bit more nitrogen than what you would without it.
That's hard to convince farmer. So, yeah, so we don't see a lot of it here in Kentucky, just because those are
I got a lot of calls this spring and summer about annual ryegrass and corn. I'm wondering Travis, is it worth briefly clarifying Italian ryegrass?
Yes, it's yes. That's a great question. Italian ryegrass and annual ryegrass are the same exact species. I know, yeah. A lot of times people like, Oh, this is annual ryegrass is no, no, there's this. It's the same species, Italian ryegrass. You know, ryegrass is all
it's my favorite trick question at meetings. Yeah. All right, so final question of the day today, what is the silver bullet for weed management? Travis? Will you go
what is the silver bullet? first on this one,
is there one?
I don't think there is, right, yeah, I just don't think there is, I think really find something. Because what we've talked about this entire podcast, there's trade off. Everything we do, you know, there's, there's a trade off there. And every weed management system we bring, or think of, there's a trade off, or there's going to be a hole in that defense, if you will. We're getting into football season, right? Right? So there's going to be a hole in that defense,
and weeds are going to find right? And so that's where we see the weed shift. We see that new weed come in is because it's going to find kind of that nature, where that system is not particularly good at controlling that different weed. So I don't think there's going to be silver bullet. Maybe we find a really good technology, a really good herbicide, a really good Sheridan ship here one weed, but then you got to know what comes in. So that's, that's the biggest reason for me why there
is not a silver bullet. Helps us all stay employed too, right?
Job security.
yeah, weeds are always going to evolve. They're always going to be changing. And so I don't, unfortunately, yeah,
what are your thoughts on that? Logan,
I would agree with Travis's comments 100% and I think it's, it's kind of, some of the mentality that you get when you, when you are in this line of work, is there are no there are no silver bullets. What I what I typically tell folks in in terms of the most effective we weed management programs are those that are as dynamic as possible, where you've got the most tools in your tool bag and you're constantly rotating and changing to avoid adaptation to that
niche that you are creating. And so, like in our part of the world, here in in western Kansas, we've got folks that have been no till for many, many, many, many years. And so with that, with that absence of of mechanical disturbance, we are selecting for those species that really thrive in no till, where, at the same time in these systems that you still got quite a bit of tillage, and you've got, you've got those species that are really adapted to an environment that's constantly
having that that disturbance. So, you know, I think when we talk about rotating our modes of action, I think there's also something to be said we talk about rotating our modes of action. We talk about rotating our crops. I think there's also something to be said to rotating our mechanical weed control practices, and so that's something that we've also looked at here. Would I say that that is the thing that's going to
save the planes? No, I would not. But what I would say is that our most successful and sustainable to use that sustainable term management systems are those that are using as many tools in the toolbox as possible and rotating them regularly.
One of the things we hear a lot as well, weeds aren't going to be resistant to steel, and it's like no, not necessarily, but you know, maybe they do. Use their germination patterns. And there's, there's a million things they could do, and that's, that's what makes weed so cool. So a huge thank you to both of you for joining us today. Travis and Logan, thank you to the listeners. Before we let you go. Do you want to maybe plug a website, or do you have somewhere we can
find you on social media? Travis?
yeah, so I'm on x, so it's @travislegleiter kind of depending on time of year. Sometimes I have a lot on there. Sometimes it's not a lot. For a long time, we try to put things on there, and then, yeah, we have the university conducting designs website too. We try to keep all our most current information up there on our crop site. Are we age? So those are the two places you can find me the most awesome.
What about you Logan?
yeah. So I too, I am on x, and you can find me @SWKSagronomy, southwest Kansas agronomy, on x and and I'm usually try to stay pretty active on on there. And then we just updated our website, and that is going to be www.wkrec.org, western Kansas Research Extension Centers, or all, all all things, all things western Kansas. Agronomy,
perfect. Well, thank you guys again. Thank you to the listeners, and we hope to catch you next week on the War Against Weeds podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Just a reminder, you can find this and other podcasts and resources on the crop protection network. This network has a host of information from extension programs across the US about all things pest management. We hope to catch you next week on the war against weeds Podcast.