Liverpool’s CB situation & Darwin heading for the exit?

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All right, Reds, Tony Evans here with Walk On, your Liverpool podcast from The Athletic. I'm here with James Pearce and Andy Jones. Werther's done, Kekers is edging closer, and there's movement with exits too. But before we get into all that, let's start with those three words. Andy, you must have some summary words to uplift us.

It just, well, I'm going to go with keeps getting busier. It does, it does. I mean, shouldn't we all be having time off? Shouldn't we all be on the beach, James? Shouldn't we be, you know, I don't know. Isn't it summer? I had a little bit of time on the beach on the weekend, but it was only a short break, not a holiday. Well, come on, give us three words. Welcome, Milos Kerkhez.

So that's what James and Andy are saying. Here's what you're saying. Dom O'Brien. Genius Richard Hughes. George Wilson Hayes. Allay, allay, allay. Carl and Williams. Henry's wallet open. And Matthew Walker, where's Alexander Isaac? Matthew, you want the world, don't you? You want the world. To join our community of listeners on Facebook, just search Walk On Podcast and join the group.

Well, James, you've been off for another non-holiday, so welcome back. You know, what are you making of all this transfer madness? Yeah, it's an incredible contrast, isn't it, to a year ago when, what was it, the back end of August, last summer window, before pretty much anything happened, wasn't it, with obviously Chiesa coming in and the Mamadashvili. deal getting kind of thrashed out a year in advance so so like not no it was it was pretty quiet wasn't it and um

Yeah, I think I was looking back over some stuff the other day and I think one of the most read articles at the time was last summer. It was just entitled, Why Haven't Liverpool Still Signed Anyone? Went into the season as the only Premier League club who hadn't done any business. But yeah, what a contrast. I think we always knew that this summer was going to be very, very different. That, of course, Michael Edwards and Richard Hughes had had like a year.

to kind of run the rule over everything they inherited. Same with Arna Slott. I think we all knew as well, didn't we, that the team that won the Premier League wasn't a team that was built to go on winning for years to come. It was a team that would need some help and some tweaking. Here and there, and it's been a booming statement of intent and ambition so far for us to be here still, back end of June, Frimpong done, transfer record shattered to bring in someone.

The calibre reverts. And then, you know, Milos Kerkers, as we speak now, just undergoing the final bits of his medical, ready for that to be announced. So, yeah, it's been an unbelievable start to the summer for Liverpool. Yeah, Andy, I mean... The spend and, like, the escape relegation, really. 170 million, you know. It's going to be much more than that as well, isn't it? It looks like it, yeah.

And it has been really impressive just the way Liverpool have handled it all. I mean, June is usually the month where everything's really, really quiet. And obviously the Club World Cup has sort of shifted that a little bit because there's still football on and that transfer sort of... window was open as well so you could get business done a little bit earlier but it it's just been so sort of clinical from Liverpool and in the way they've gone about it every sort of

Every target they've had, they've seemed to have got without very little issues other than just, you know, your usual negotiations of agreeing a fee, which always take a bit of time. I know, obviously... These days, everyone wants things done immediately as soon as you register an interest. Supporters want the player done and done as medical the next day, but it doesn't quite work like that. But yeah, it'd be nice if we just do this every year.

if June is just the month where Liverpool go mental. And as you say, it keeps looking like there's going to be more to add to it because there are still areas of the squad which need strengthening. The number nine is still a... you know, at the talking point and now with, you know, Kwanzaa's imminent exit or expected exit, then, you know, a centre-back has rocketed up the priority list as well. Yeah, and you turned into a transfer ultra. James. James. James.

Social media, has it become more harmonious? Are you still getting the level of abuse? Because clearly, you know, you're always responsible for Liverpool's transfer business. Do you know what? I hadn't really checked my Twitter mentions for a couple of weeks. because most of my time off has been spent actually starting to write a book on Slott's first season. So that was kind of taking up most of my time.

For next year's Pulitzer, you will knock Simon Hughes' chicks in the cellar off the top. It'll be some competition. If I can get half as many plugs from Hughes to Tony as Simon got, I'll be laughing in terms of Christmas sales.

Yeah, I did dip my toe into the water of the Twitter mentions when I was back in work on Monday doing the day job. And there was... I just, I love the fact that there's this kind of perception that because the... people have this idea that I kind of knock down rumours that are wrong that I'd be absolutely devastated that Liverpool are actually doing business so I'll just read you one from I won't give you his full name let's just say

Give us his phone name. Name and shame. Name and shame. It's Simon Hughes. But this, my dear friend Jason messaged to say, by this rate, Pierce will be out of a job. His job is just to... shoot down every link and every transfer rumour as a way of trying to endear himself to the owners. The FSG hierarchy is also not briefing him anymore. He is lost, alone and in the dark. I am sure he is crying himself to sleep every night.

Which is a bit bizarre because literally the last thing I wrote before I went off for a couple of weeks was the, you know, the vert steel had absolutely kind of blown me away. And what an incredible.

statement of ambition that was and and just what a very special player liverpool have got so um yeah i'm not quite sure i probably maybe i had kind of poked the hornet's nest a little bit just by retweet in a tweet from about six years ago about the fsg out crew and the the net spend boys so maybe maybe maybe um maybe that brought a few of them out the woodwork but yeah i think in general

Twitter seems to be a slightly more harmonious place although it is that modern thing of in that you can you can spend 116 million pounds on Germany's greatest talent of his generation and people the immediate thing is well who's next Well, that's all well and good, but what about centre-half? What about the centre-forward? I've got everything I ever wanted, but I want more.

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There are some comings and goings, obviously. And Jarrell Kwanzaa, as you mentioned. and he is going to Leverkusen. There is talk of Mark Gahey coming in. What do you make of that? It's interesting, wasn't it? Because a lot of the talk around... a centre-half coming in has been because of Ibrahim Kanata's contract situation and him having 12 months left. Have we got another Trent Alexander-Arnold situation on our hands where he's going to run out of his contract and leave? Should Liverpool sell?

Are they going to be able to agree in extension? And therefore people have sort of wanted that new centre-back to, I think, I guess succession plan a little bit just in case the worst does happen. But Kwanzaa's sale changes in that now Liverpool definitely need a centre-back. There's no...

There's no if, buts or maybes about that. They have to go out and recruit because we all know what happened the last time they went into a season with three senior centre-backs and it didn't go well at all, did it? So yeah, the problem is how it's tricky to buy a third choice.

fourth choice defender, because I'm sure Joe Gomez will have plenty to say about that pech and order as well. If Liverpool do keep hold of Karate, even if it is just for the next 12 months, what type of centre-half do you recruit? For example, Marguerite, for example, is 25, I think. And, you know, with a World Cup year, he's going to want to play week in, week out. So how do you sort of, can you sell that to him that he might not be? Because you'd suspect that Slott will still keep...

Van Dijk and Canates as a centre-back, you know, first-choice pairing because of how good they were last season. But then, so you think, well, maybe do you look to a wee succession plan in a couple of years in advance of Van Dijk and are you looking at a younger player? if you're younger players to develop, need to play. And that's sort of the problem they've got, you know, or had with Kwanzaa in that.

He struggled last season and you could tell he was just really rusty because he wasn't playing week in, week out and he wasn't getting the game time to improve and put things right there. He was getting wrong. you find yourself in that position as well. So it's a difficult situation Liverpool find themselves in. But what is quite clear is that they definitely need to buy a centre-half because, as I said before, they can't risk going into a season with only three. I mean, James...

The sense I get is that they prefer Canate to stay and Gary Young a player in. But if that doesn't work out, Gehi is an option. Yeah, I think... I think so much would depend on how much Liverpool could get him for because, as Andy touched on then, I think the dynamic, if you sign someone like Gay compared to a younger one who's probably more...

likely and happier to kind of bide his time a bit and and be eased in gradually is that Gay would would come expecting to play wouldn't he Palace you know are pretty tricky negotiators and you know they're they're obviously caught in a position at the minute where they're they're probably thinking well if he's not going to sign a new contract do we sell now because are they really going to want to lose him for nothing next summer i i think if you could get him for

40 million i i think that would be a deal worth doing for liverpool because i think you know what were they i think they were offered 60 million were they turned i think they turned down from newcastle a year ago i really like him um and you do need depth in that department regardless of what happens with canate and you'd like to think that you know gay if if the if if the deal can be done between the clubs would back himself

to force his way in and get enough game time to satisfy him. So, but yeah, there's no doubt that kind of Liverpool's plan had been, and probably still is to a degree, to go down the route of a younger player. I think you only have to look at... the kind of profile of ones that they've kind of pursued in recent years. There was that situation, wasn't it, where Colwell two years ago...

There was some uncertainty whether he was going to stay at Chelsea and Liverpool were kind of waiting in the wings for him. If that had possibly come to fruition, it didn't. Of course, Leni Yoro last year, that again... there were conversations had over him, but...

He was in a hurry. He wanted guaranteed game time. Man United were willing to offer him that. So, you know, and I'm also not sure that Liverpool would have paid what United end up paying for him either. And then, of course, even just a few months ago, you know, Dean Hoyssen that...

Bournemouth who ends up going to Real Madrid you know there's no question that Liverpool would have loved to have signed him so I think that kind of shows you what the preferred profile is but it doesn't mean that Liverpool wouldn't do something different in the right circumstances but i think in this case we're gay the right circumstances will will literally be how much it is the package going to be and and does it you know does it represent a really

you know decent market opportunity and i think a lot of that will depend what kind of competition there is for him because obviously you know palace will want an auction won't they they'll want to drive up the price as much as possible Well, definitely, definitely interesting. Palace have just been sold a percentage to the New York Jets owner, Woody Johnson.

The Athletic did a great piece earlier this year about the influence of Woody's son, Brick. Imagine being in a family where, like, Woody and Brick. What's a... What's the grandchild's name? Concrete? And what were their ancestors' names? Straw? Mud? I don't know. But anyway, Brick, a 19-year-old, was having an influence on the choices they made. for the New York Jets, please. Let's get Woody and Brick in and they'll probably sell us Gahey for like...

20p. But no, Paddles are very astute in this sort of area, aren't they, Andy? They are, yeah. And it's, you know, even with the one you're left on... on his contract there's always that as Liverpool have done in the past they weigh up where they're sporting sort of incests outweigh the transfer fee and obviously now the expectation is they will be in Europe so they're going to profit from sort of the revenues there as well which will help them so you know they're not in a completely

awful situation on it and they are going to still drive a hard bargain and it would be a difficult deal to do so yeah it's a Liverpool point of view I think as James said for that type of player it needs to be a a price that's reasonable for Liverpool to feel like it's worth doing the deal unless they've...

they've sort of got certainty on certain things about their own defenders. If Canarte is leaving, then you do probably need a bit more of a ready-made replacement, whether that's to come in now or come in later. Whereas if...

If you feel like you're going to have success in Canadi's contract negotiations, then it might change things a little bit. But I think coming back to James' point on the younger players, I mean, Jaro's sort of a really good example of how difficult this is for Liverpool because...

One of the main reasons I think we reported when the Athletic reported when he moved was the playing time and sort of the guarantees and they weren't there at Liverpool because of obviously the quality they've got and I think that's the problem with shopping. The elite young talent is that generally those players are already playing games regularly. So it's hard to convince them that Liverpool and potentially...

playing 15 to 20 games compared to 40, which they're playing at the minute, is the way to go. And that can be the little sticking point, I guess. But ultimately, like some of the others who have joined.

They're joining because of Liverpool and the success they can have. So that is the selling point that Liverpool have got at the minute. I do think it's a bit of a shame about Kwanzaa. I'd have liked to have seen Kwanzaa give it another year, to be honest. And I think probably you could look at it from his point of view and he probably thinks...

I don't think the manager really fancies me in terms of the limited opportunities. He had, I think, only 13 starts in all competitions. He had 30-odd games where he didn't even get on. He was just an unused sub.

But I just think he's still young, isn't he? Especially in centre-back terms, only 22. And maybe having that big break through the season before, maybe he just kind of, I don't know whether he expected that to just... that to be it in terms of just lift off but it's quite rare for young players like that who come through to not have any kind of dip

And I'd have liked to have seen him give it another year. I think for Liverpool, once it was clear that Kwanzaa wanted to go, I think, you know, what is it, 30 odd million plus add-ons. They're negotiating a buyback clause into it, which covers them a bit in terms of the future. So yeah, it's a shame. I like Kwanzaa. I think obviously there were times last season when you could see his confidence took a bit of a hit.

you know of course we're getting subbed off on the open day it took him a while to get over that and you think you know there was the league cup tie down at brighton as well wouldn't there there was a few you know, a few tricky moments. But I just think, you know, all young players go through that. But yeah, I just got the sense towards the back end of the season that he just...

Despite being part of this incredible achievement, he just felt that he was on the fringes of it rather than really a part of it. And I think that's led to this decision of him deciding to move on. But yeah, it's going to be intriguing to see how Liverpool...

do fill that gap because what we do know is they're gonna have to get someone you know that as andy touched on previously you you know there's there's absolutely no chance that you could go into the season with you know three center halves it's definitely you know that and The centre-bat situation and the top end of the pitch with the number nine, they're the kind of two intriguing kind of scenarios now in terms of how things develop.

Like James said, I did feel sorry for Quanta at times. I mean, he scores two home goals and both of them are his own player kicking the ball at him from half a yard away and it goes in the net. So there's things that, like, he didn't become a bad player and I think some of the sort of criticism and...

opinions of them I think we're a bit overblown and I think ultimately there'll be a piece later this week on the Athletic me and Mark Carey working on sort of the possible options that Liverpool should be looking at And I think if Kwanzaa wasn't a Liverpool player, given his profile, if he played for Bayer Leverkusen for the last two years, Kwanzaa would be...

the exact player Liverpool will be looking at which is the irony of all things and I think that's what it makes sense of why Liverpool have got a bye back in because they do see the potential it's not like he's as I said he's not become a bad player overnight and there may be a situation in two years after

You know, two seasons of consistent game time where Liverpool are looking at, you know, he might be one of the best centre-backs on the market. I just thought he was unlucky at times last season. Andy mentions there, like, the own goals. I think it just made me remember...

you know, the header against PSG that comes back off the inside of the post. And I think it was flagged offside, wasn't it? And then you watched the replay and you realised, oh, you know, if that bounces in off the post, VAR, look at that and the goal was given.

And then we could well be talking about Kwanzaa, the hero that heads Liverpool, you know, past PSG, you know, through to the next stage of the knockouts in the Champions League. And then you'd probably say who left in that competition would have stopped Liverpool. And we may well have been talking about that header as being one of the pivotal moments of a season that brought even more riches than the Premier League. So yeah, he's a really, really nice fella, Jarrell.

Only ever met people with good words to say about him at the academy. He kind of did the hard yards as well, dropping down the leagues to Bristol Rovers to almost like to toughen up and stand on his own two feet and then use that as the launch pad for his career. But, yeah, you know, it's going to be really interesting to see how he gets on at Leverkusen. They've got a good one there. Yeah, well, I mean, I can't imagine ever limping off with Kramp.

you know, towards the end of a big Champions League game. But, you know, hey, I'm not criticizing anyone here. Ah, which brings us neatly to Darwin Nunes.

Andy, where are we with him? He's been linked with Napoli, hasn't he? I mean, he's going to move. Yeah, I think it's the way it's kept seeking in football, that the Darwinianers won't be a Liverpool player next season, unless something... very strange happens I think in terms of all clubs deciding that they no longer want them

or he decides he wants £1 billion in wage demands or something ridiculous. Obviously, the interest was there back in January and Sadie and Liverpool rejected the 17 million euros, I think, around that bid because he wanted to keep... I mean, that would...

That was frankly ridiculous, wasn't it? Well, I think Liverpool value them highly, and I think when you look at... Yeah, I mean, it's worth more than that. Well, I think when you look at the centre-forward market and some of the prices that are being banded around for players, then...

you are allowed to ask for big prices because ultimately there's not a lot of number nines. I think a lot of people are of this opinion that wherever Nunes goes, he's going to do well. There's this weird feeling that he's just going to... a different league. I just think the Premier League wasn't suited to him and I think ultimately all the things that built up over time at Liverpool...

led to him getting into his own head and fans getting on his back a little bit and all those things and unhappiness and just frustration, I think, generally. So, yeah, I mean, there's multiple clubs interested. I think Napoli seems to be very keen on him.

And I can see him doing really well in Italy if he goes there. But Liverpool are not going to, you know, they're not just going to give him away for nothing. They're going to demand a significant fee. And I think now it seems to be that it's where they're... It's whether the club is prepared to pay that or how it all works in that. But yeah, it's fair to say that he's not going to be playing for Liverpool next season unless something significant happens.

James, where are we with it? Yeah, Napoli have registered interest. It hasn't gone further than that yet in terms of any concrete bids, is my information. But there's an expectation that... they will make an attempt to sign him. The feedback from the players' camp has been that he'd be open to the idea of... of going to Naples, of course, who are Italian champions. So what I don't know the answer to is exactly how much Liverpool want for him. Going back to January, they didn't actually reject...

70 million for him. They were basically approached by an intermediary working on behalf of Saudi pro league clubs that essentially said, is there a deal to be done for Darwin Nunes? we've got someone that would be willing to pay up to 70 million and Liverpool I think I think quite rightly at the time were like well in the same way as they they rejected the interest from Real Madrid and Alexander-Arnold they did likewise with Darwin because they just thought

Why you don't want to weaken a squad when there's still so much to play for? And even though he didn't have a huge impact in the second half of the season, I think... just the significance of those late goals at Brentford. And of course, he also scored in that comeback win against Southampton. I think it was vindicated. But I think if Liverpool can get... Anything over £50 million for Nunes I think would be a decent return when you look at what he has.

contributed over his three seasons at the club you know I think Liverpool would probably hope that there'd be a few other more clubs coming in for him to hopefully drive that price up a bit well we've had a listener voice notes

If you want to get into it, remember you can email us at walkon at theathletic.com. But let's see what a listener has to say about Derwin. Hey guys, my name's Johnny. I'm a fourth generation red here getting in touch from sunny Glasgow. Hearing some of the sniggers and jokes about our big dope Darwin Nunes in the last couple of episodes, I just wanted to get in touch to say something about him, given that his Liverpool career now looks like it's starting to end in the coming weeks.

Naturally, a lot of people will remember the outrageous price tag, the comical one-on-one misses and some of his bizarre behaviour on and off the pitch. I kind of hope he's remembered in a different way. He was flawed, but he was a gifted striker and he's provided some of our most memorable moments in recent times.

The brace at Newcastle, his winner at Forest, his late double at Brentford, his lob, I think that was Brentford as well. There's Worldie in the League Cup, which shut up all those Diering Bournemouth fans. I could go on. You know, his goal return might not have been Highland levels, but 40 goals in three seasons isn't actually...

something to step at for a top division striker. It's about the same numbers that Gakpo and the much-vaunted Diaz have put up. And yeah, I know they play a bit more on the wing, but I think as people have discussed, the modern nine has changed a lot in recent years anyway.

And it's often forgotten that in 2023-24, he had one of the best GA rates in Europe, which maybe that just doesn't fit the narrative about our Uruguayan Andy Carroll. So forgive my spirited defence of him, but I wanted to... share that with the pod seeing as it's the summer it's a good time to stock teak and

I think we as football fans have a tendency to move on quite quickly when the next shiny thing comes our way. So I just wanted to value his contribution to Liverpool, however erratic it might have been. Because if there's one thing we Liverpool fans love, it's passion. And he hasn't liked that. Love the pods, lads. And thank you.

Well, thanks, Johnny. I think one thing we need to clear up here is when you call someone a dope in Liverpool, that's a term of affection. You know, it's not an insult. When I'm saying he's a big dope, it means you want to put your arms around him and hug him. I mean, it doesn't mean he's... If you really want to insult someone, we have plenty of words for that. But dope isn't one of them, is it, Andy? No, it's not. And it's like, because I think...

I think generally the majority of Liverpool fans have wanted him to succeed. And a large, maybe not a large portion, but a good portion of Liverpool supporters have generally stuck with him. as far as he can and I think what Nunes is really quite good at is he you can be really out on him and then he does something which gets you right back in and you think this is it now so the Brentford all the moments he mentioned the Forrest

Because after the Forest goal a couple of seasons ago, he doesn't score. I think he scores one for the rest of the season. And everyone thought that was the moment where he was going to kick on. And then Brentford this season, again, was very similar. Newcastle away. All these moments where he... He's a guy, for all his flaws, and he's got a number of them, he did find a way to have a big moment and sort of provide Liverpool fans with some of the biggest let-offs, some of the biggest...

celebrations of goals that we've had in recent seasons. And any player who does that is generally doing something right. I think the problem is he was just so frustrating because you could see what he could be. and he just never was, usually because of his difficulties in front of goal. There was obviously sometimes a couple of attitude things on the pitch, which obviously was caught out by Slott.

you know, some frustrations with his general play and then the offsides became a thing and there was just sort of grumble. Like the first time he was offside in a game, there was like this massive grumble and it was like... You know, OK, yeah, he's offside, but there were a few games where, yeah, he was offside about eight million times. But I think by the end, I think everyone's sort of been on the rollercoaster and is about ready to get off. But it's been one of them. There's been...

a lot of ups and downs with him. And I hope he is look back on more fondly than certain people look back on him at the minute. But I think it'll go both ways. I think you'll have people who say he was absolutely awful in five years' time. But then there'll be others who say, you know, who will remember the big moments that he did give us. Yeah, and, you know, I think to some extent, James, the anti-Carol comparison is...

Well, in one way, it's not fair, but in another way, it's fair. I mean, you know, I remember how Sandy Carroll was the goal at Wembley against Severn. You know, these were players with a...

With a talent, but maybe found themselves in the wrong club at the wrong time. For me, he's been... a lot better than Andy Carroll I think you're right so obviously Andy Carroll had a couple of like big moments but I think when you look at Nunes he's had more and I don't think I think I think it's also such a modern thing now that people want to like categorize someone as they're either like absolutely phenomenal or you know absolutely cheating a living and i think the reality is that nunez

has been all right at times yeah he i i certainly think he wasn't the right fit stylistically and that's not his fault it's also not his fault that someone decided that he was worth 85 million pound you know that was the fee it could rise to with the with the add-ons you know he didn't put that price tag on his in his own head and when you look back at

He'd had an unbelievable season at Benfica, but it was quite a small kind of sample size. And I remember speaking to Ian Graham, obviously Liverpool's old director of research, when he brought his book out probably, I don't know, a year, 18 months ago. And he kind of said that, because there was all that talk about at that time.

Liverpool seem to be kind of moving away from the way they had done things so successfully. And obviously the noise around Klopp becoming more and more kind of powerful and influential in the decision-making process. And he kind of said, he said, look, the data didn't say don't sign Nunes, but what it did say is he's a very different centre forward to the one that we've been playing with for so long. That was Firmino, wasn't it, for so many seasons.

And effectively, he said, all we said as a data department was, if you're going to sign him, this is how he will have to be utilized because this is his skill set. And that's going to involve a change of style from the team because at the minute we do not play to the strengths of a player with that kind of skill set. And I think that's been borne out in terms of, I think there's been...

little periods where I've thought to myself oh maybe the penny's dropping and he can adapt to what is demanded from him but there's been a lot more moments where I've thought unfortunately this this just isn't going to work out you know wrong wrong player wrong club wrong time in terms of the

in terms of the style and what was expected of a number nine. I think we saw that with slot last season in terms of, you know, even when Jota was out for a significant period, you know, that period where he said, no, I'll just rather play Diaz as a follower.

nine so i just think a parting of the ways makes sense for everyone and and i agree i think there's probably a very good chance he could go on and absolutely flourish somewhere else but i don't think i don't necessarily think that would be because Liverpool haven't managed to kind of get it out of him I think it's just more there might you know somebody go somewhere else where a team probably plays to his strengths better but it'll leave leave behind some decent some decent memories you know

For me, the best one will be that late double at Newcastle when Liverpool were down to 10 men. I think just for the sheer wow factor of... for how on earth have they managed to to win this one and looking up at that away end up in the gods at St James's and and seeing all the flailing limbs and and also the fact that for a player who's got

quite alarming collection of misses in terms of open goals the fact that he that they are two of the the best number nine finishes you you'll ever see yeah i mean wherever he goes i think i wish him well He'll always be our big team. you bring your AI game. Workday is the AI platform that transforms the way you manage your people, money, and agents, so you can transform tomorrow. Workday, moving business forever forward.

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Talking of cult figures on the way out. Two and a half years after his... Cult figures? Is he really a cult figure? But two and a half years after his last appearance, Knapp Phillips is finally going to leave on a permanent transfer. And he never really made cult status, did he? Though a long period of time, I'll be honest, I forgot he even existed.

Yeah, it's how you define a cult hero, isn't it? And sort of their contributions, because he did play a significant part in Liverpool's sort of end of season run to get in Champions League football during COVID. I think for me, the main memory of him is the crew turn in the San Siro in the swing box, which is generally still one of the most ludicrous things I think I've seen on a football pitch because Nat Phillips, I think it's fair to say...

You would describe him as like a meat and potatoes type defender, where he just boots it clear, he kicks it, he heads it, and that's about it. He's not a ball-playing, smooth, silky footballer. Not every defender is that. So to see him whip out a bit of to hitting his own box in the Sancero was one of them, actually. Still to this day, when you see the clip of it, it's like he actually did that. Yeah, you're shrieking fear.

every time yeah so I think that's the thing it's how you define a cult hero isn't it because that moment alone is sort of etched into Liverpool's history of everyone, whenever you talk about Nat Phillips, everyone remembers that. And he did play a significant part alongside Rhys Williams, you know, during that end of the season when Liverpool had no senior centre-backs, they tried all the midfielders.

tried a few people on loan and you know all of that had not really worked and then him and him and Rhys Williams with very very little well no Premier League experience you know did help fortify things and help Liverpool into the Champions League and thank God he didn't get in the way of that Trent Alexander-Arnold corner which Alisson edited because he did his best to get his head on it he didn't. Sue knows where that would have gone. I'm sorry, we don't refer on this pod to the...

Oh, yes, sorry. I've been away, so I'm a bit rusty. Yeah, that's a yellow card. Next time, son, you're off. You're off. No, but James, the one thing I remember about that film... and I'll always remember, and I always think fondly, another one is he put in a shift. Even when he was overmanned, overmatched, he never left anything behind. No, that was why... fans took him to their hearts because, you know, that is what...

fans love more than anything and it's seeing someone who's got the same pride in the jersey that those fans would have if they ever had the opportunity to step out on onto that grass and um that's why for me i think he probably is i think he does sneak into the cult hero

bracket because I think more than anything just because of the contribution he made to Liverpool salvaging Champions League qualification that that season because he went from having never played for Liverpool to playing 20-odd games in the second half of that season. There's that iconic photo of him and Rhys Williams looking battered and they'd just gone 12 rounds with Mike Tyson doing the lap of appreciation at the end of the season.

And if you remember, that was obviously the season when Van Dijk, Matip, Gomez all suffered season-ended injuries. Klopp had stuck Fabinho and Henderson at centre-half and then realised that that then destroys your midfield. So Klopp said himself he wished that he'd turned to Nat Phillips earlier to help solve that problem.

I've been amazed that someone hasn't snapped him up prior to... to now in terms of like you know like a decent level championship club because he's you know he's had so many so many loans and so you know Stuttgart and Bournemouth Celtic Cardiff Derby obviously last season and yeah I think West Brom

have got themselves a real good one there you know it's he will absolutely shine for them I've got I've got no doubt you know it's um I think that's a coup for Ryan Mason who's obviously just recently taken over at the Hawthorne so um and I think the great thing with someone like Nat Phillips is okay you know I think he played 29 games for Liverpool all in But if West Brom come to Anfield in one of the domestic cups next season, he is guaranteed one hell of an ovation. And that...

You can't really ask for much more than that, can you, when you leave a club? So I think, yeah, he will leave with everyone's good wishes. Yeah, I think he'll thrive at that level.

And Harvey Davis, who we mentioned last week in our chat about homegrown options, is off to Crawley on loan. Yeah, I mean, there's been some to-ing and fro-ing in the goalkeeping department.

I think that'll be good for them more now. Yeah, it will be. I think Liverpool have got a habit of loading a fair few of the keepers out and trying to get them experience. And yes, Harvey Davis is another one who's getting to that age now where they need to go out and... a key play in regular football really and sort of challenge themselves at the senior level because I think especially for goalkeepers youth football can only do a certain amount for you in terms of

You know, that hustle and bustle in the box of coming for crosses, of competing in corners and everything else that comes with it. So, yeah, I think it's any low move for a goalkeeper. to sort of league football I think is a good one because it does allow them to lay in on a job and I think particularly for goalkeepers that's the best way to do it and Liverpool have obviously covered themselves in the goalkeeping department with Mamad Ashville

Pesky. Is that how you say? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. We'll call him that. Yeah. That pesky fella coming in. You know. Pesky goalkeeper. So yeah, I think that he can be registered for the Premier League squad because his class isn't under 21, so he doesn't take up a non-homegrown spot. So I think in that... you've sort of got your third choice there because obviously Jaros has gone out on loan as well to Ajax, which again is another really good move for him.

top-level football, which in the little glimpses we got of him last year, he looked ready for it. So again, that'll... That'll help him. Obviously, he signed a new contract as well. So, you know, should increase his value for next summer, for Liverpool to decide, you know, what they want to do with him. Well, most of the team are on the summer holidays. Kwanzaa.

Harvey Elliott and Tyler Morton are playing in the under-21s Euros. And, I mean, Harvey Elliott scores against Spain in the quarterfinals. Now Kwanzaa striding forward. It's opened up for Jarrell Kwanzaa. And the goalkeeper spilled it and Harvey Elliott has made it too. James. Where are we with Elliot? With the vert steel, it's hard to see him staying in there. I think a lot will depend on what offers a forthcoming. You only had to kind of read between the lines.

some of the interviews that Harvey's given whilst he's been at the under 21 Euros, that I think if the right opportunity came up, clearly he wants to play more because he was frustrated at the lack of opportunities last season. I think it's going to be interesting to see what happens because when you look at it, he's only 22. He's played nearly 150 games for Liverpool. I think when you think of the price tag, for me, like 40 million.

absolutely like minimum I think probably 50 million Liverpool would be looking at and when I think you look around at some of the prices that are being paid for players that are nowhere near as gifted or as experienced or as young still as Elia. I think that would be fair. But then, of course...

that immediately massively shrinks the number of potential destinations for him. So yeah, it's funny, isn't it, to think the three Liverpool players that went to that tournament with England, all three could be gone by the... almost by the start of pre-season because Tyler Morton, it looks pretty nailed on that he...

he will depart in search of a new challenge. There was interest in him last summer. Of course, Leverkusen actually wanted him on loan and Liverpool didn't want to sanction a loan. He ended up staying around as cover. but didn't really get much of a look in. And then, as we talked about earlier, Kwanzaa, Leverkusen, and then this big question mark against Elliott. So, yeah, it's certainly going to be one. I think everyone's kind of waiting to see how that develops. I hope he ends up staying.

Because, you know, I think you need depth, don't you? And I know how much it means to Harvey to be at Liverpool. And that's why I think it will be an agonising decision for him if another... attractive opportunity comes up because he won't want to cut his ties with Liverpool but of course he has to also think about the bigger picture in this. Yeah, and you wrote a detailed piece about the situation recently.

It'd be sad to see him go, wouldn't it? Yeah, massive shame. I mean, we talked about Nat Phillips there, sort of living and breathing it and as supporters, that's what you get behind. And Elliot epitomises that as well because, you know, he's not...

made any secret to the fact that he's a massive Liverpool fan and has always been and you can see it in his play and you know his celebrations and how much it means to him and you know he's always latched off the pitch at Anfield making sure he's clapped everyone and just sort of drinking in every moment and just relishing the opportunities that he's got because not many players, not many people get the chance to say that they've played a key role at times for the club that they support.

It has been a shame this season to watch him, not watch him really, essentially him watching on from the bench because the talent's there and he's got a lot of quality. Typically, I wrote the piece after watching him in his worst performance of the tournament when he was subbed off after 45 minutes against Germany. But generally, he's been really good in the tournament or been a key part of Lee Carsey's side.

It will be a shame because I think that's the thing, his age. He's about three, four years away from his peak and he's already got so much experience in the bag. You've already seen the technical quality, the impact he can have on games, whether that's from the start or...

has generally been the case from the bench, but it's, will his winners be even reduced next season? You never know with injuries, but, you know, if it is here to play the number 10 role and surprise Clive's already there, you know... it's difficult to see how well he builds and gets more moments certainly than he did this year and ultimately I do think we talked about the stylistic fit with Nunes I think

Unfortunately, I think Elliott is in a little bit of a similar boat with Slott because I think when you profile him next to Sabozlai, the difference is... clear in terms of the physical attributes and it's sort of in between of Elliot and some of us like you know more technically gifted but you know it's probably a little bit more

in terms of the physical side of things. That's not to question Elliot's desire, because he wants to do everything, but he's just not quite got, I think, what Slott wants in that position. makes it difficult so yeah but he has shown I think you know you go back to the season when Liverpool had all those injuries and won the League Cup and he was incredible in those particularly early months and slots

Klopp says at the end of the season that he should have played them more. And I think that sort of sums it up, how good he can be. I think ultimately what's interesting about him is what type of club wants him. Because I think if you're paying a significant fee, you know, 40 above, which is...

you know, what Liverpool will want. You know, you want him to be that, you know, the central creative figure for you, the creative fulcrum for you in your team. And he's not necessarily... been that Liverpool yet and that's generally mainly because he's not at game time in the way that he could be but it's what type of club that appears to and you know because he'll want to play

at the top level. He'll want to play European football and all that type of stuff. So it's interesting to see what type of clubs will come in for him and what move he might make if he does go. Yeah, I think for me, James, one of the...

You know, it is sad to talk about players of the standards we're talking about leaving, but it says something about where Liverpool are that they're able to let go.

players talented players go yeah yeah it it does it does it shows you know how how high the bar is set now isn't it in terms of the level that Liverpool are competing at and you know if you're you're talking about players like Kwanza and like Harvey Elliott having to basically make those kind of decisions about am I really going to be able to get the game time that I want when looking around at the array of talent.

it bodes well for the future, doesn't it? And, yeah, they're in a good place, you know, coming off the back of winning the title. And, you know, it just shows, doesn't it, with the business that's been done already.

that you know it's they want more it's this is like it they didn't see winning the title is like the end of something it's like just the beginning of a new era under slot and the evolution of it I think is really, really exciting, you know, with Frimpong, with Wurtz, with Kerkers, you know, and more to come. you know, Liverpool are going to be a different beast next season and think in terms of the questions that they ask opponents.

And there's still a fair bit to be done, both in terms of incomings and outgoings, before I think Slott will get it exactly as he wants. And of course, also the dynamic to pre-season will be different this time around, because Liverpool start back that kind of weak commencing. in the 7th of July. And usually we talk about those opening weeks of pre-season.

being all about the young kids having the chance to stake a claim while the more senior players are still on their holidays after major tournaments. But Liverpool don't have that. They certainly don't have the issues with having like... Chelsea and Man City coming off the back of the Club World Cup and a shortened break before the new season. They should be all rested and relaxed. Slott will pretty much have his entire squad together from day one of pre-season.

And again, that kind of whets your appetite about what he'd be able to do in terms of... kicking on in chapter two of the slot era. Yeah, well, after you saying that, James, I'm expecting them to be awarded the trophy against Bournemouth on the first day of the season. So that's it from Walk On, your Liverpool podcast brought to you by The Athletic. Thanks to Andy and James and you too for listening. We'll be back with you next week. We'll catch you then.

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