Exploring Life's Design with Aarron Walter

What did you wake up this morning excited about?

I am excited about, turning the dials on my life.

Yes. I'm going to give you a couple of minutes to think about it, and then we'll get started.

and we have complimentary skills, the work that we're doing on design better, that's exciting. I'm excited every day to watch my kids grow up. I think that's pretty cool to just see human beings change and evolve.

Okay. So the first thing. Okay.

I find really interesting.

That's, that's fascinating. That last part is interesting because it's like,

I,

you're interested in tweaking your own knobs, but it sounds like there's also this, this understanding that everyone has these knobs to tweak people throughout history and living presently are they either know or don't know that those knobs exist or they're, they're whatever and who's, kind of figured it out and how do you sort of apply that to your own life? And how do you tweak the knobs to to your own satisfaction which which I love that difference by the way of satisfaction versus happiness.

Yeah, that that's feels right to me. I, I really like to read and that's kind of a big part of what I'm excited about. Um, trying to fill a bunch of gaps of books that I never read that I probably should have read and also dig into some stuff that's, you know, maybe New and interesting, but,

yeah. What, what have you been reading?

I, lately I'm reading, uh, right now I'm reading Donkey Hoti, which was written in, uh, published in 1605. And so, you know, like the human experience, 1605, it's very different and yet it's the same, you know, like

Futility.

The

Right.

suffering,

Yeah. Yeah.

read Le Miserable. And, uh, that is all about trying to find a moral code, and it gets so confusing to one character in particular, I won't say because some folks may not have read it or seen the musical or whatever, there's one character that Has such certainty in his life that when that gets shaken and he's no longer certain about his moral code, he can't go on living and he has to end his life. and I I think that is fascinating that, you know, I too have been asking these same questions.

Yep.

of people have who came before me.

love that and I also think it's, it's important to note that you're a designer I'm hearing in what you're saying this kind of methodical working through this stuff, which I think is beautiful because again, whether explicitly or not, we all sort of are navigating that terrain. And I think what's interesting is that people are seeking for these truths that are absolute.

Yeah.

about sort of separating less like here's a truth versus here's these things that tend to be more durable concepts or things that that feel sturdy versus like the I crack the code, right? Like, I don't know. Do you feel do you feel like this is a code to crack like or that you can or

feel like it's a code to

yeah,

I feel like it's a quest that you never reach the end. And I find myself I. really interested in, uh, reshaping my, my mentality. So I'd say, you know, in my younger years, uh, teens, twenties, thirties, the way that I thought about it was sort of, uh, of, of life. not, not really life is like a, a big picture 'cause I don't know if I was that introspective at that time. But, you know, work and, and anything I was doing is sort of like, it's a checklist.

yeah. And it sounds like a real. acceptance of that.

Yeah.

Is that, is that, fair to say? It's like there's almost like a tension of like the pursuit of, of mastery of, of these hobbies, of these, these experiences, of this like thing that you're curious and excited about, but also a recognition that it's like, it isn't about perfection or it isn't about like conquering a thing, but it's more just the, the experience of it, right?

I think that, uh, The younger me thought that the pursuit of mastery was like you could reach the destination And now the older me thinks it's a lot like Don Quixote where he's like pursuing, this noble truth of, you know, the, this, this honorable code and he just, he never quite gets there and he looks silly the more certain he becomes,

Yeah, yeah,

that's the way I feel about jiujitsu and their kind of metaphors for, The human experience.

such heart agree. Like if we were to have this exact conversation, like fast forward 30 years, right? I'm sure we'll we will have learned some stuff. We've had some additional experiences that are shaped our outlooks, but I, I have a strong suspicion that both still be seeking, right?

I won't, I won't be doing any jiujitsu in 30 years. That's for sure. I will break.

just, you can feel the, you can hear the bones snapping from here.

Maybe, maybe yoga.

But hopefully guitar, I mean, like, you know, that's, that's, that's one of those things. I recently watched this video of, it was a drummer who was, I think like 102 and he's kind of at the assisted living place and he's doing it and

That's

you could just see the neurons firing. And when you just see that, um, I I'm so fascinated by that stuff. When you, when people talk about longevity and whenever people talk about all of this stuff, it's, it's, you see it embodied in, uh, well, Les Paul was like another, another person, like, just like these older players, these older people that have been pursuing this thing, have been going on this journey for decades.

Yeah.

But there's this, there's this real light, there's this real connection, there's this real, there's a deeper thing there than like, Oh, that's cute, this person's had this hobby for

Yeah.

know what I mean? Like, there's, there's really something to that.

yeah, I saw, uh, Herbie Hancock, uh, perform a couple years ago and, uh, got to meet him after the show.

Oh my god.

that was amazing. But so for those of you who are, are not Herbie Hancock listeners, um, he's been at this for. Uh, what, 75 years, three quarters of a century. he's in his eighties. He was an anchor of Miles Davis's band for a long time. He's done major stuff. Uh, and thought, Okay, I'm gonna go see Herbie Hancock, sort of as like a, I, I just want to, I just wanna be near that creativity.

Yeah.

But I'm sure I'm not catching him at his peak. And I think he was 82 at the time and he was still incredible. He was so incredible. Uh, and, and still learning too, like, he's playing with young people. Uh, and that's something I've always admired about. Certain creative people who are constantly staying close to youth, uh, new ideas, constantly pursuing and learning. Those are the folks that I really admire. That is one thing about Miles Davis.

Yeah,

staying close to new ideas. He was very good at that,

yeah,

that, you know, people like Kirby Hancock, he learned from that because at, in his day, he was, he was 20 and he was the new idea, uh, bringing new ideas into, uh, to Miles Davis as well. So I, I like that. like being close to creativity and new ideas. I think it's contagious.

I 100 percent agree, and I think that that's like one of the real drivers of putting this show on is, is that again, it's, I've experienced like a lot of people who exhibit creativity in a lot of different realms and There's, I feel like, only until recently that there's, above the surface level or like outside of like the realm of scientific literature or psychology or whatever, have there been sort of a few things, that have kind of surfaced about just kind of the, the nature of creativity and

Hmm.

of these things like a Rick Rubin's book. did you read that? Like it's, it's

yeah,

that's a, that's a great example of it's just like, here's this kind of, let's like pick at sure he could punctuate some of the points. using his musical experience, but there's, there's a lot of stuff behind it that is more shared. And whenever you, um, Sir Ken Robinson is another sort of huge inspiration of mine, like the element, or it's just like, just driving home this idea of like, everyone has creative capacity.

Yeah.

or they're just like in a routine or something.

A Couple things come to mind uh, from that. is curiosity and the other is uh, personal identity. I, I think that know, the notion of I I am or I am not a creative person. that's a message that we create for ourselves. I think that humans are tremendously Capable of reinvention and creating new skills and exploring new territory. Uh, if we, if we allow ourselves, we, we do that to take that path. You have to be curious about.

Yeah.

humble as well. I think that maybe that gets a little overused, but clearly, you're, you know, if you've got no experience, you you go into it with an inherent uh, level of humility, but.

Yeah.

Um, Allowing yourself the opportunity that you can learn a new thing. You can, you can try new things, whatever your job is, your educational background. That those are great. That's great experience that you can build upon and. you can start from scratch. You could learn something that is totally unrelated, seemingly unrelated. I'm, I'm a big believer that one way or another, you'll find some connection back to disciplines. But, um, I really like that.

Nice.

Uh, I don't know anything about it, but I'm curious. And I I try to do like some kind of a class every year. I, I do, I do classes weekly. You know, I mentioned guitar and, and but, um, I also try to do some other class. Like I did a stop the bleed, which is like a first a type of class.

Wow. Okay.

I'm sort of curious, like, how could I be useful in a, in a challenging situation? I think it's great to reinvent yourself and build yourself into something more than what you could have imagined.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's, that's amazing. And you're embodying, I think what a lot of people, uh, would aspire to had they not already talked themselves out of it in their brain, right? And that that's, it's, it's a phenomenon that I see all the time with people. So for instance, it's like, you know, I do front end code. And I'm in a room full of designers, a lot of which have not done that type of thing.

Mm-hmm.

to, to imagine. And it just is like, how do you Get people to to take those steps to actually move forward

sometimes it's just seeing it like seeing that someone else is doing it, seeing that it's possible. I think another thing that holds people back is they think, order for me to develop that skill or, um, learn something new, uh, it's, gonna be too hard because I'll be doing it on my own, but there's so many great resources out there.

Yeah,

can probably find someone who's teaching a class who does sort of like a camp, online, uh, youtube videos,

that like YouTube

the

a

above.

yeah YouTube is a miracle like YouTube is an absolute miracle like setting aside Whatever, radicalization in its algorithms and all of that stuff. It's like the ability, and we've been doing, we do it all the time with, with our daughter, where she'll ask that question, and that kind of has become our, like, default. It's just like, oh, let's, Let's just go watch a video of somebody doing that, right? Uh, we're drinking almond milk in the morning in our, in our, uh, cereal.

both. That's,

yeah

an unlock for me is I read a lot of books and I'm reading books on my own. Like Les Mis, it's huge. And people, people call it the brick. I I kind of want to understand it, like understand what's the, what's the backstory. So I use things like YouTube to give me a background on the French revolution. Or to find someone who's doing like a a book group on this and they go through it and and kind of give you some analysis.

no, that's right.

And it's just a matter of like about the resources that are at your fingertips to, learn what you wanna learn. And, you know, to go back to your original question, what gets you up in the morning? It's learning. It's just, man, I love learning new things. And I just like the more that I learn, the more I see the cross connection between All all the different topics, the skills,

Yeah.

the, you know, human experience.

Yeah,

and that gives me a fuller understanding of my life

that's as beautiful and I think what's also worth pointing out about it is that that Your unique experience, right, like you are the only Aaron Walter who,

that we know of.

but, but who, who hosts these specific podcasts about these specific things and have had these specific conversations and have also read these specific books. And I think that that's the thing that's another thing that I encounter and I'm sure you've encountered this as well, where people go, Oh, well, I couldn't possibly.

I'm gonna share with you some wisdom that I learned from, uh, this guy, Dan Pink, who's written a bunch of great books. He used to write, uh, speeches for Al Gore. Uh, he wrote a great book about regret, the power of regret. And I asked him, why did you write this book? And he said, be honest, all research is me search.

yeah.

uh, I find that. You know, the design, better podcast and reconsidering podcasts, they're different topics, but there is some commonality. I am curious about these topics and I am selfishly trying to teach myself learn from other people. And by turning that into a podcast and kind of a. Media platform. It gives me the structure and the accountability to continue to learn. So, uh, yeah, like it's, it is good for everyone and I do want to share, but.

Yeah.

to all the people and learn as much as I can from them.

That's beautiful. But like, but that's the, that's the thing though. It's like, it's, this isn't a zero sum game. These things are not mutually exclusive.

I have a, I, I have a a way that I think about this. These are, um, called super activities. So there are activities that you can do that might you, uh, mentally, spiritually I. and, you know, nourish your relationships and there are activities that can do more than one thing simultaneously. Um, I'll give you a couple examples. So I started Juujitsu Because my youngest son dropped out and we had a contract.

right?

He's got a

Mm-hmm

testosterone. And so I want to, I wanna make sure that he's building skills and also learning. and, there's some danger to that. And that's part of growing up is being able to operate within a more nuanced set of, uh, constraints And so we, we fight each other on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Amazing.

uh, so he's beating me up and I'm beating him up and we're learning all kinds of choke holds and, uh, boxing and stuff like that. And it's super fun. It's super fun together 'cause it is done safely, but we learn a skill. So we're nourishing our, our intellect.

Yeah.

uh, I I, when you have a teenager, you rarely get to hug them. I get to hug him pretty regularly in a very tight way when we're fighting. Um. and, and we get to spend this time together and have this kind of shared experience. That's a super activity. I, I

beautiful.

boxes. I,

Beautiful.

I feel like there's also a spiritual component to that as well. Uh, for a while I gave my wife such a hard time because she goes to this gym that is like a, it's kinda like an old person's gym. That's part of like a hospital rehabilitation thing

Yeah.

and it's out of the way. So she's gotta drive all the way there, take her classes, you know, work out and then drive home. So it kind of occupies the entire morning.

Silence. Silence.

that she brings to these classes. They give each other gifts that, you

Silence. Silence.

it's good

Um, Silence. Silence. Silence.

together. Um,

Silence.

do a lot of cooking for my mother-in-law who's wrestled with some illness and that makes her feel better and be healthier. and when I can be of service, that is good for me. I, That's like, it's a gift for me that I get to do that for somebody else. I tell my, I tell my kids all the time, you know, a good man puts more value into the world than he extracts. And that doesn't have to be gendered. It's a good person puts

Sure, yeah,

than they extract. and thinking about that, think can, can be a good framework for life. What can I do? That's providing value for others. I'm gonna get value out of that as well. When

Yeah.

service mindset.

And that's just it. It's like, that's that last part is the thing that like, it seems obvious and, and experientially it is obvious as like, oh yeah, I see you smile and I'm smiling right back. And there's a lot of, you know, science to back that up, but yet at the same time, this, this kind of prevalent.

Mm-hmm.

whatever reason, the phenomenon I see. In my little world, at least, is, here's this chunked out, segmented things that are being like, this is, this is this, and this is for this person only, and this is only doing these things, or attacking these dimensions of life, whether it's physilect, you know, whatever. And it's like, it's, we're selling ourselves short!

I, I think we're, you know, we're, we're super social animals and, I, just think, I think it's so amazing how humans will just fall in line. even, you know, self-aware people just kind of fall in line to the social constructs of, is what other people are doing. You know, if I'm an 8-year-old in school and I see that my friends are all doing travel soccer and you know, I want to go be part of that. I, I can't blame an 8-year-old kid for that. They want to go do it.

That's.

those who are kind of curious about it could say, okay, what's the cost benefit analysis here on if my kid. My eighth grader does travel volleyball

Yeah.

and they're gonna be, we're gonna be on the road. We're gonna have to pay for flights in some circumstances,

Yep.

we're gonna be gone all weekend. The younger siblings, other siblings, what's the cost that is paid for

hmm.

and relationship there. The cost, you know, for a, a kid who's doing the same movement over and over again. My, My nieces have had multiple surgeries from that stuff. because they just, you know, do it over and over again. They

Sure.

quickly, know, somebody like Jerry Rice, who's a hall of fame, wide receiver for San Francisco 49 ERs didn't play football until he was a sophomore in high school. so like the specialization so early, it, it has a lot of costs. think the lesson I take from it is, you make decisions that. Bends your, your, your time and your energy investment towards the payoff that you want

Yeah,

of the, the, the thing that you think you're supposed to do,

I'd really like to use it. Since you just said pay off an investment, uh, this, this brings, uh, like, I, I, I definitely wanted to like, get here in our conversation, but I think that, like, one of the things with all of this, as well as, yeah, just whatever kids activities in general, but also like what we do with our time. And life energy is like there's money, right? And so, like, I think, and even back to what we were sort of talking about, it's like, oh, yeah.

the, the, the opportunity, the decision making, if you are stuck on a treadmill where you've, you've got to just continue to make a certain amount of money, none of that curiosity talk decision making. Really, like,

yeah,

or makes sense.

yeah, and, and, and that's, and, and that seems to be it, and, and it's a phenomenon that I've, I've experienced wherever people are like, oh, you're like doing these, like, Kind of weird things and I'm not entirely sure how you actually earn money or whatever But like but I guess what I'd love to to get at here and and this is so we've had conversations in the past So we're both.

I think of money as a tool. ideally, I would, I want money to buy freedom and joy, opportunities for growth.

Mm hmm. Yeah.

you need to be transferring that. Out into some total stock market index. So you don't have a large chunk of your personal wealth in a single place. Cause if that company starts to lose value, you're in trouble. You're in, you're in big trouble. Getting good at money is an essential skill at life. Uh, you don't have to be a hedge fund manager, but you do have to know how to invest and how to systematically transition from trading your time for money.

Yeah,

I wanna take six months. Even it's like, takes six months to find a new job. That's fu money. That's not like an insane amount of money, but it is fu money that gives you the time and space to reconsider. that is what everybody should and can build. if they're smart about this.

no, that's, that's great. There's, I feel like there's so much great advice locked up into that. coming back to, I think that I really like how you led it. Money is a tool, and that tool can be pointed at things and utilized to accomplish things. I think that that, that for me really sort of shifted.

oh, I think that's, that's a great question, a great question, right, right there. What's money for? What is

Yeah,

work is for generating money, but work is also for other things. It's for learning. It's for connection. It's for feeling useful.

yeah,

a super activity. It

yeah

be. And what is money for? Uh, it's for protection. it is for opportunity it's for growth. it is for a few things, but, another thing that people get very confused by is. having outward signs of wealth uh, you know, consumption, consumption is wealth, consumption is not wealth. you know, you hear people say this, this phrase, like how can they afford it? Chances are they can't afford it. You

Very true.

credit. They're paying a mortgage. They're paying a note. They're paying, you know, some, some bill on a regular basis. And they are consuming. You don't want consumption to drive your life. You want to have a solid foundation. Um, and when you do have that solid foundation and you've got enough FU money and you've got runway and you're clear on your values and you've got a healthy relationship to money and how you use it

Yeah

achieving that satisfaction and that safety in your life. Hey, and you want to consume and buy a thing. okay. But also be aware of, like, what things bring you joy. So you and me, I think we'd probably agree, like, buying a good instrument, it brings me joy, 'cause it's a thing that brings me growth, and I'll have it throughout my entire life, and I'll give it to my kids.

Yeah

a good spend. For me, like, a car I think of it more as like taking it from point A to point B. If you buy something brand new, it loses value right away. A car to me, just, I feel, I feel bad. Like I'm losing money on that thing. And I've tried buying something that felt really cool. and it just stressed me out. I'd rather have a cheap pickup that I can do stuff.

Yeah.

dings it, I'm like, yeah, it's all right.

Yep. And I to, to reflect on that. And you, you said it earlier. It's like the, the, you know, what are your values? And it's like, that needs to come first. Because a lot of times it's, again, it's just that kind of blind, just kind of myopic or shallow mode of, well, I got to earn money. And without a value system to, to really sort of undergird that endeavor, you can find yourself in weird territory real quick, right?

And

Yeah.

a simple way to do this is, um, if you can articulate your values, um, maybe your values are around, and learning and growth, for example, create a budget those are your budget buckets. So you align your money to your values, uh, in that way. So when you say like, I've got 150 this month for learning, got a hundred dollars for adventure. Or we're gonna start saving monthly for one big adventure every year. And that's gonna give us growth learning and family time or a couple time, whatever.

Yeah.

kind of a different type of bucket than This growth stuff.

I. Right. Right.

bring me joy or get me closer to my life's goals? Probably not.

I love that. It's like you're making the value system explicit and it's that becomes like any good sort of design endeavor. It's like, here's this like kind of measurable. It's tangible. You could see it. You could work towards it. You could you could sort of evaluate how you're doing, getting, are we close or are we far away? It gives you kind of a lens into it. That's, that's great.

it can

yeah, go

you freedom too there, uh, in ways that we might not expect. I, at one point was scrutinizing my spending on audio books. I really, like, I just love audio books. I was like, man, I'm spending this subscription over here. I have two subscriptions for audiobooks I was going through so many and I couldn't get 'em all at the library so and I thought well this is actually a good way to spend my money because it aligns with my values so I'm okay with that

ahead. Beautiful.

money over here on clothing or I'll spend less money

Yeah,

I don't know. Restaurants.

yeah,

you know, one of those things that can get some value outta that. That's great. And that can align to your value system to a certain degree. But it is one of those things that it's an expense that, it doesn't pay back a ton.

so yesterday I, um, met with these people, never met before, but, uh, connected and played music with them, which was really fun.

doesn't destroy the record collection or

right.

the raccoons eat the records, then you not

This is true. This is true. Yeah.

and. fix the roof.

maybe like pulling all of this together. Right. It's like, we've covered like, There, there's curiosity, there's pursuit, there's, there's creativity, there's, there's being sort of intentional and tweaking knobs and, and pursuing these, these super activities that allow you to get fulfillment out of multiple dimensions out of life. And like that all needs to be paid for, right?

yeah, I think there's a theme in each of the topics we've covered here, which is the examined life, the idea of looking at one's life carefully, every aspect it. Not taking it for granted, asking questions like what does it cost to live the way that I, I live or I want to live and are there compromises or ways I can turn the dials here? Um, how shall I live? What are my values? What are, what are things are most important? And then how can I integrate that into?

yeah, I love it. I love it. You brought up something right there as you're recapping it, that I think is a really important thing. That is, that is one of the other things that I wanted to talk to you about because I think that it was. It was through you that I first heard the terms seasons of life,

Yeah,

and I don't know where that came from, but I internalized that in my own life, and as I've kind of like experienced some pretty dramatic chapters or seasons of my life, everything you just said, kind of recapping that, it's so important to say, Hey, This, all of those things, all of those questions need to be re evaluated, all the time.

the

And it's,

us.

a hundred percent. So, so it's like, it's like all of those things that we've talked about are, are important. And then there's this other axis that is time, which, which says like compartmentalize all of that and, and plot it along the, the, the time axis.

Yeah, humans are not very good at time continuity. You sort of see life right now and think, this is the way it's always been. actually it was different because, you know, I was different and the circumstances were different 10 years, ago, 20 years ago, a hundred years ago, how. People lived. It's very different. There's, there's a different continuity, but seasons of life to be able to think forward and backwards in your life, um, is really great.

Yeah,

can, we can live a better life.

but but to bring it to bring that perspective into the present and to cultivate presence like that, I think that that's everything you just said is true and but to do that to point to the present moment where you're in your car With your 14 year old headed to jiu jitsu and you're able to acknowledge That like this is a gift because one day he won't be in the car with me because he'll be it

a half years.

Yeah,

and a half years. So the

right.

about what trips we want to go on, what skills I want for him to build because

Yeah

the day when he leaves the house.

Mm hmm.

own. And what does he need? What has to be in his bag of skills

Yeah.

uh, an autonomous human being who's safe and, you know, can,

Yeah.

successful. I've gotta consciously invest and support my children right now because I gotta plan for that day.

but all all the while I think it's like the so yes to all of that, but then there's like also like a I don't know if you experienced that phenomenon where like, And this is, you know, where people get anxiety from is like worry for like the future or whatever It's like if you do that too much you lose You lose the presence, right?

That's right.

of life, these, the, the time with the people in our life is all finite. If you're able to translate that into presence and gratitude, then there it is, like to really realize that that it's like, this is a special moment. It's not going to happen again. You know, hopefully we have lots and lots of moments with, you know, our, you know, kids and the people in our lives, but like, know that that finite moment. is, is like, just be present for it.

When you can think forward and see how life's probably gonna change pretty Just a few years, I. uh, you know, down the road. It definitely brings you into the present

Yeah,

and helps you like clarify what's important.

yeah. Yeah.

will do that. But I think that, you know, there's other things in life, whether

Yeah.

or not, that you, you can get that as well.

Yeah, but it but it just it requires that that introspection and I think that that that might be like a You know, maybe a good like parting note for everybody is, is just like, it's like, what, what are those things? Like, what are, what are your kind of bedrock kind of core values? And like, how are you thinking about, you know, your life as you live it and are intending to live it?

it's hard to be a human. We're, we're all

It is

something

it is but but it but I feel like uh feel like we cracked the code here in this conversation. This is good We did it. We're all done

at the we cracked it, but we at

But, but it's like, I think it's like, yeah, the code isn't meant to be cracked. Right. I think that, I think that, that, that that's the cracking of the code is, is understanding that it's, it's not, not crackable. Thank you so much for, for taking the time to, to talk about this, this is like. This is like a dream come true for me. So thank you very much for having this. This is like, these are exactly the kinds of conversations I think need to be happening and often aren't.

well, my podcasts are the things that are kind of the center of my universe these days, so design better podcast.com And reconsidering.org reconsidering explores, how to build a life while making a living and kind of what, what the good life looks like. Um, so that seems very adjacent to our conversation today. Design better is about the creative process and, um, finding inspiration, finding out how to be a, a better designer, uh, and a creative thinker. So places to learn more about me.

Beautiful. And then the last thing is, uh, what is, uh, some music that you want more people to know about?

I am a big fan of Kamasi Washington, and we had him as a guest on Design Better recently. uh, I love his album, The Epic, which came out in 2017. But, uh, he has a new one. Kamasi Washington's new album is called Fearless Movement and it is great. So if you're not familiar with him, he, uh, He plays saxophone. He plays lots of different types of music, jazz and hip hop, and goes in lots of different directions. But he's, he's fantastic.

Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. Check it out. That's, that's one of the things I also want to, to cultivate with this thing. It's like, there's a lot of great music out there. So I think directing people to, to some good stuff is, uh,

Yeah.

Aaron, thank you so much. Thank you. Seriously. Thank you for for being on this thing. And, uh, yeah, thanks to you all for for listening.