Worldwide Always

waltz of Jericho. What are you prepared to do? Hunt them like a carrible see you while you starting about your front and night here you're waiting our reparations coming and we stare fools run wrap circles were about like a pair of shoes. Who hey, what's going on? Everybody? This is dope knife and you are listening to waiting on reparations. I hope everybody's labor day and all that was straight. You know, I hope it was more eventful than mine. No, you know what I texted. I hope.

I hope that your labor day was more eventful but as enjoyable as mine. How about that I did not do a damn thing. I am plugged, and I caught up on some os that I hadn't watched. I checked out that Boys Joint, the Boys I used to read the comic book back in the day, but I checked that out, and then I also checked out that show Invincible, and that was pretty cool too. So a lot of superhero ship for one weekend, which isn't normally my jam in the slightest bit, but um, you know, both of

those shows were pretty cool. I dug him. It was a cool way to spend a holiday weekend just veget out on the couch with the time to actually just relax and do that. So I enjoyed myself once again. We are on another week of Mariah being on maternity leave, so let's all wish Mariah well and hopefully she'll get back. There's so many things that I want to talk about with Mariah, especially since I unplugged this weekend and let

a lot of things get me by. I'm just thinking about some of the episode of of stuff that we're gonna have to talk about with you guys. But we got to talk about all the crazy ship in Texas. We get we have to. I mean, that ship is looking like Gillyad and ship. They were like, screw it, you can't you can't vote, you can't have abortions, you can't teach about Martin Luther King in school. No more Puppies is illegal Texas now and ship it's crazy, So

we got to talk about that. Oh, we also have to talk about Brazil and the Trump official Jason Miller getting detained at the airport after inciting a damn near riot. But in in all of in all realness, though they're having, you know, some right wing pro Bostonaro protests as of today, I don't know what will have been, what we'll be

going down by the time you guys hear this. And honestly, I want to get Mariah's thoughts on the Kanye West the album and the Drake certified lover Boy album in the two albums in juxtaposition or comparison to each other, and just you know, it's a hip hop show and those are the two big event things happening in hip

hop right now that you know. Mariah has been gone, so we have you know, I want to discuss that with her when she gets back, even though I really want to rid talking about Kanye on the show, but I gotta do what we gotta do. So um, you know, hope when Mariah gets back, we're gonna get into those sort of things. But today we have another Dope episode for you, and Mariah is going to be with us

by way of an interview. She's gonna be talking with Dr Mark Katz, who's a professor at the University of North Carolina and the founder of the State Department program and Next Level. I would get all into that, but they're going to cover it all in the interview and more so, you guys stay tuned. We're gonna be right

back with that after the jump. So today I'm joined by Professor Mark Cat's author Build the Power of Hip Hop Diplomacy in an Divided World, based on his experience as as founding director of Next Level US State Department Fund, a program that sends US hip hop artists abroad a full foster cultural exchange, conflict transformation, and entrepreneurship. Professor Cats also teaches courses on music and Technology, popular music, and cultural diplomacy at the University of North Carolina. Dr Kats,

thank you so much for being here today. How are you. I'm good and thanks for inviting me. I'm really happy to be talking with you. Sweet me too. Um. To start out, I'm really curious how one just ends up in the business of hip hop diplomacy. Given your background in teaching music and technology. So how did this sort of unfold for you? Well, it's like a lot of things. It's not a direct path and I didn't set out to do this, but I had been doing research on

hip hop for years. I had written a book about deejaying. UM, I studied dejaying. I've taught classes with hip hop artists and by the way, I consider myself more of a hip hop scholar than practitioner. UM. I do a little deejaying, but I came at this as a scholar and teacher. And I have to give credit to UM to a great musician, rapper and singer and activist and politician named Pierce Freelon who told me about this opportunity from the

State Department. He he found the call for proposals for a project of that came to be known as Next Level. That didn't wasn't called that at the time, but he said, Hey, Mark, there's this U saying opportunity. UM, we should go for it. And I had been working with him. I was a chair of the music department at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and I had hired him to UM to teach a or co teach a beat making class.

And he saw this opportunity said, you know, this looks a lot like the kinds of things that were already doing and UM in terms of working with the hip hop community and connecting students with practitioners and UH. And he said, this just looks like an amazing opportunity. So

I thought, okay, you know, I'll apply for it. It was this massive application that that I had to do in a couple of weeks, but because I didn't learn about it until, you know, a few weeks before the deadline, and amazingly it came through and I had to figure out how to create a hip hop diplomacy program. Yeah, and so it kind of built somewhat off of or you had experience already in working internationally. I think he worked at a youth center in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

Is that correct? Well, yes, but of course specifically UM, Pierce Freelan and a another artist, a producer named Apple Juice Kid went there, and Uh, I had first taught this beat making class with UH with Apple Juice, and then he started working with UM with Pierce, and then I heard about this opportunity from a colleague to do some work in Congo, and we were able to raise

money to send them to Congo. I actually went later, so but that led to UM a big series of two week workshops around the world called beat Making Lab col Yeah, so was did you find there to be a sea learning here? We're trying to build out the program for a lot of different cultural national contexts around the world as a part of next level or what sorts of experiences were transferable from those beat Making workshops

into actually working with the State Department. But I would say there was both a steep learning curve and a lot that we were able to transfer UM because the steep learning curve part was where things that were very specific to working in diplomacy and with State Department. Uh. For one thing in government, there are millions of acronyms that you know, don't you know, you just have to

learn what they are, and no one tells you. They just speak in acronyms, and then you have to figure it out UM, and then they're just it's actually just a culture unto itself, the world of bureaucuracy and diplomacy. So there's a lot of a lot of learning about what the what practices are, what the structures are and all that. Um, so that was that was a bit steep.

But but I also knew my way or around bureaucracies having been a chair and being a chair and a music department at a big university, So I got that part. But the but the transferable, transferable skills, we're really just

the concept of building. And my book is called build and that's the Yeah, So it was it was the it's it's a term that I had heard a lot, but then after hearing it for a while, I realized, actually, this is a this is a central concept of central kind of guiding concept and value in the work that I'm doing, which is not not so much teaching, not so much bestowing knowledge on others or uh, you know, dropping science, but it's working together and it's it's creating

something together that you can do alone. And I would say that was probably the the most important concept or world view that that I, uh, that I learned from hip hop. And I credit hip hop teaching me that because I've been a teacher for many years and the model is, you know, the teacher has all the information and gives it to the students and and I can't say I was one of those types that just stood up at lectured all the time. I always preferred a

collaborative approach. But when when I would hear people talking about building and saying, um, you know, I don't want these Americans coming into Zimbabwe and teaching us hip hop, I want to build with them, that really clarified for me what hip hop diplomacy is about. It's about Americans, U S citizens building collaboratively with hip hop artists around

the world. Yeah, and so I was curious if this concept of building that is very central to hip hop, y'all, let's link, let's build, let's lab Um if there's like a if there's a an analog, it's not there to be an analog in other cultural context where you all are working or they have the similar ethos of like, yo, let's link, let's let's build, you know, and and uh yeah, well, I mean there are concepts like that in a lot

of cultures. But the interesting thing is that people use the specific English word built really yeah, and um, so it is uh you know that's the word that they used in zif Bobwe That's a word I heard in um Man marked word. I mean I've heard it all over the world and um, and it's funny just on that,

on that point about hip hop slang or language. Um, you know, I would say, like, what do you call an argument you know that that people in hip hop have, and they said, well, it's a beef, you know, like they would use the word, the English word beef, even though it was you know, it was not their language. So um. It was always surprising to me how the language and ethos of hip hop has spread around the world. But I will say it's not like it was. It's

not a kind of colonizing or purialistic spread. It's more like concepts that are native hip hop connected with concepts that were native in other countries and just found a connection.

So um. One thing that was that I always felt going to other countries, I could be in a place and most of the time I was in a place I've never been before, was that the connection between the artists coming from the US and the artists in the country we visited was more like not a diplomatic delegation of country of you know, men in suits and meeting each other for the first time, but more like a family reunion where you meet cousins for the first time.

You you've never met them but their family, so there's an automatic kind of connection. That's how it felt to me. Awesome, it sounds amazing. Um, but you did mention, um imperialism, and I wanted to ask some about you know, artists, particularly you know within hip hop. There it's a very anti authoritarian stands. Oftentimes there's you know, critique of the government.

And said, so, um uh, some artists had some qualms or you know, dealt internally with some questions about how he felt it's about going abroad and you know, working with the State Department. So, um, could you talk some about how artists grappled with their distrust of the US government or their embraced of the opportunity of travel, and how those questions of you know, being a part of of the state apparatus in a certain way was dealt

with by various people you worked with. Well, it's a good question, and it's a question I basically asked every single person, every hip hop artist that I worked with, because I was I was curious about it, and I wanted to know what would make them feel comfortable with the idea of working with the government and I got a lot of different answers, but but basically when it comes down to is the idea of uh agency and autonomy?

Could the artists honor or could the project honor the agency of the individual artists and let them act as as the artists they want to be? Did they have the autonomy to say what they want to to build in the way they want? And if the answer is yes,

then okay, I can. I can work with these people because they're allowing me to be the person I am, the artist I am, and they're paying me, and um, you know, there's also a sense of this is the real world, old meaning that I've come across, and it's I have to say, it's usually other academics who will kind of uh, you know, sniff at this and say, oh, yeah, so you're just turning these poor hip hop artists into imperialists.

And you know my thought as well, First of all, I don't have that kind of power to turn hip hop artists like they do what they want. You know. It's like, don't don't give me the credit which I don't want of being able to turn these incredibly strong

willed artists into puppets of the U S. Government. But then there's also the kind of the blinders that those of us and I include myself, who who enjoy a certain privilege in life to be able to criticize those who have to make hard decisions about who to work with, about where to take money, um, about what opportunity needs

to take. And I spent a lot of time talking with hip hop artists and just listening, and I remember one conversation where where a group and these were all men who were talking about and they were all from different cities in the US. And what they said is, and they all agreed with each other, um, that it wasn't a question of whether they were going to join a gang, who is which gang what they joined, They simply did not have the option not to be in

that life. But from a certain vantage point, or a certain privilege vantage point, you could say, well, you always have a choice, and um, and my criticize people for making these choices. And that's what I learned is that's not the real world for a lot of a lot of artists. UM. And of course there are there are people and fearing degrees of privilege within I'm not trying

to uh to paint with a really broad brush. But but the reality is if if the government is coming to you and saying we're going to pay you, and we're going to pay you money that that you might not be able to make otherwise, and you're going to get to travel as an artist, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for people to turn that down just without even thinking about it. So um, so I would say, you know, the there's a lot of sophisticated

thinking that goes into this. And one thing I always appreciated was that that no one went in thinking that there wasn't the possibility of being compromised or being used. It was just like, I'm going in with my eyes wide open and I'm going to I'm going to be careful and I'm going to try to be the artist I want to be. But I do know that there's

a possibility of uh, compromise or exploitation. But the fact is that's that's life really, that's you know, that's not different from from deciding whether to take a job, you know, uh, do a gig for Sprite or for you know, Nike, you know, or for a school or for a you know, an n g O or university. So I mean The thing is to be clear, I'm not trying to say that the government, the US government doesn't have a very

specific history of exploitation. It does. And one of the things that I always um that I have tried to do is to educate myself about that history. So I actually can can talk about any number of times that the US government has overthrown other countries have as you know, I can tell you about the coup's in you know, Guatemala or Iran, or you know, assassinations in in congo Um and all that. So I don't pretend that this

is not part of our history. But one thing that I appreciate about the artists I work with is they say, look, if the government should be hiring me, you know, rather than than doing all the stuff that that I criticize them for. Finally they're doing something good with the money

and hiring me as an artist. So there are a lot of you know, there's a lot more to say about that, but it's it's nuanced, and it's something that I, you know, would really want people who are not in, who are looking in from the outside to understand that these are very sophisticated thinkers who are dealing with with a world that does not allow them to just stand

on the sidelines. Yeah, and then the book you talk a lot about like subversive complicity, like people who just like they come in, they represent where they from, what they about, what their politics are. So I wonder the flip side, what then was the State Department's handling of like the artist just kind of being who they are, while also you know, being tasked with supposedly representing the

US government in these different contexts. Well, it's tricky for them because you know, we've had artists who will just say I am I'm an anti imperialist in the US is an imperialist country. So um, I mean most of the time, the reality is that we don't have people just following us around all the time watching everything. So um.

The reality is that that if you know, we go to a you know, a certain country and one of the artists wants to connect with people and and you know, have tea and talk about you know, their anti imperialist views, that's that happens, um and um. And I actually don't think that the people at the embassy would try to stop that. Um. They you know, there is a certain amount of discomfort, but I think they just have to

deal with it. And there was there is an occasion I think I do mention this in the book where where one of our artists, Pinky Ring, very outspoken, amazing m C from Chicago, UM had a song called Revolution Revolution, and you know, she just just you know, just laid

into police and Trump government. And she actually performed this at the ambassador's residence in Cambodia, you know this, and UM and the people from the embassy afterwards kind of gently came up and said, you know, maybe don't perform that at our public show, you know, tomorrow, And the response of the team was no, We're going to perform it and I and you know, uh, and the world didn't end, you know, it was actually it was fine.

You had American artists criticizing their own government and UM, I know, you know, I'm sure that it made people feel uncomfortable at the embassy. But on the other hand, if you want proof that that these aren't puppets, and you know, these hip hop artists are speaking their mind, well, having them criticize the boss, you know, the president at that time was Trump, UM, should be you know, pretty clear proof that the US allows its citizens to criticize

its governor. Yeah, and so in a way I think it's used to be around in the books someone like actually building more with the people who in these contexts that may be critical of US government as well. But it's like, yo, I actually feel you on that. I'm on the same day. But yeah, we've talked about a couple of different forms of internal conflict or conflict with like, yeah, the messaging of different artists versus like the goals of

the State Department. And in chapter two you say and seeking to transform conflict, we were also according it and it makes me think of, um, I don't know, I remember that Dave Chappelle sketch like keeping a reel goes wrong life? What if they get into these like kind of comical uh conflicts because you know, they're just representing and then it it goes poorly. So I wanted to unpack what that means a little bit according conflict in these contacts as well as if you can speak something

about the idea of conflict transformation. Yeah, thanks, So I'll start with conflict transformation. So that's a less common term than conflict resolution, but the idea is that instead of resolving beef between two groups. It's a more general term for transforming conflict, meaning harnessing conflict which is in our lives and is in escapable. We we actually recognize that conflict is part of life and it's not something that

can be avoided. So really the question is not how do you avoid conflict, but how do you transform that energy into something positive? So um and art is a great way to do that. I mean we anyone who knows the history of hip hop knows that it transforms conflict into rhyme and to dance and de beats, into graffiti into writing so on. So that's the that's the idea behind conflict transformation. That we're not going in there trying to break up fights because you have to know

the history. Uh, you have to know the history much more than than we can and the culture in order to mediate a conflict. And we're not sent in as mediators. And that's that gets the idea of courting conflict because if you think about it, Let's say, you know, you see two people arguing, um, just on the street, and you go in and you say, hey, you know, can't you to get along? Like who are you? Yeah? Get out of you? Um? Yeah, like who, Like, what the hell do you know? And um and you know, and

that's just like someone in your own culture. It could be someone in your own family. Now, imagine going to another country, representing the U. S. Government and trying to step in the middle of some could be generations or centuries long conflict and saying, um, Okay, here's what you're gonna do. I mean, it's he's like, no, man, you don't know what's been going on out here. We're like, yeah,

I could. He's entered exactly. So it's it. Actually to do that is to show the worst kind of ugly American uh you know, caricature, which is that we're arrogant, that we we go into into situations that we without knowing what we're doing. So so we try to avoid that.

We try to go in asking questions, We um, we listen, we show respect, We try to learn as much as we can, and we try to respect people by not trying by trying, by avoiding trying to solve their problems for them, but instead using hip hop as a means to develop tools that they could use to express themselves. And um, and so even then, I should say, we could still be creating problems that we don't know about. I mean, our our mere existence can create problems because

I've seen this happen. We come in and I mean, it's it's pretty easy to understand when you step back and think about it. But let's say somebody from another country comes in and into your community and says, I'm going to teach your students how to do what you teach them, and you know, people might say, well, I'm not sure that I want you doing that, and um, and that is that has happened even before we say anything.

Or mere existence can create conflicts. So we have to go in and I've I've seen this over and over again and kind of show our you know, you know, our our intent are, you know, demonstrate our respect. So you know, I've had conversations where people kind of stand there with their arms crossed, kind of staring at us, and and over the course of a couple of hours will kind of relax like, Okay, we get it, we

understand why you're here. So one Um, that's one reason why we always take an advanced trip before the residency. So a couple of people, the manager of the residency and someone else, sometimes just the manager, but we'll go and meet with a bunch of people before anything else happens and just get to know them. So that paves

the way for a for a smoother residency. And that is really crucial because just showing up and on day one and saying, you know, snapping your fingers and saying, Okay, here's how it's going to be done is not the way to create mutual respect and understanding mutual understandings the language that State Department uses, and it's not the way to build with people. He talked a little bit about some into like barriers you would encounter upon during new contexts,

but then all the ways of transcending them. Were there any limitations to hip hop thephalmacy that he felt like, well this is just the line for this work. Well there, yes, I mean there are always cultural differences that you know, but it comes down to it, uh, there's it's it's better just to be respectful and not go there. So for example, um, you know, we went to Jordan's and you know, um, Israel is just saying the word Israel, the name Israel and Jordan's. It's almost like a fighting word.

Even if you're not saying thing positive about Israel, you know, and and um, I learned that, you know, I learned that the hard way. And I didn't say anything positive about Israel. I just said I made like some parenthetical remark about how, um, you know Israel was a neighbor and and you know, I was talking about conflict. Idn't see you know, you have conflict with neighbors, And just saying that name was enough to get people really riled up and upset with me. And I was like, well,

well I didn't you know. I was like, okay, I just I should not have gone there. And there's there's nothing that that you know, good intentions would have helped in that situation. So what I learned sometimes you just have to shut up and and really, um, I mean this is a kind of truism, but it reminds me you've got to stick to what you know and um, and if you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk.

And sometimes and that actually is hard to do. And I will say it's hard for Americans to do because we're told that we're exceptional, that we're the greatest country in the world, and we have to actually push against that kind of indoctrination that we've experienced and and come in with humility and realize that there's a lot we don't know. I want thank you again so much for

taking the time out the chat with me. The book is called Build the Power of Hip Hop Diplomacy in a Divide the World tongues of fascinating stories of hip hop artists in different countries, different hijinks, and different lessons um about the power of hip optopomacy as well as a limitation. So I recommend y'all check it out and Dr Kat states again to your time. Well, thank you. This has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate

that opportunity to talk with you. All right, and that was the interview, you know, listening to stuff like that, I always love it because it makes me feel like a certain amount of pride in being a hip hopper or hip hop head or hip hop artists and just involved with like hip hop culture. Because it's just like you know, you can literally use for anything, you know, we've mentioned before, using it as a tool of education, using it in politics. It's just it's beautiful. It beautiful ship.

But that's what we got for this week. Next week, I don't want to give any false advertisements. But I think Mariah maybe back next week. If she isn't, it's gonna be like the last week that she's gone. Pretty sure. But I will see you guys next week. And I'm gonna close this off like we closed off every episode with a little bit of rapping and yeah, you know what, we don't even gotta get a new beat, Yo and Joe just turn the ship up. Let me let me

go in. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah, now hip hop hip hip it to the Dope Knife popping it, don't stop the rocking to the rom stop dropping, and I'm called by the copsit and they lock me till I'm back on the street. Now. Thank y'all for tuning into Waiting to Reparate. Love y'all so much, hope that we never separate. Give a like a comment, maybe an extra play. That was time that I'd beat y'all. Y'all have the

best to day. Hey, all right, you are rocking with Dope Knife the Rap Wizard, and you are listening to Waiting on Reparations. See y'all next week. Winning on Reparations is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts on my Heart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.