Spitting Images: Immortal Technique

a scholarship war university. But you don't need no hollo tips. The prop spit fell on the ground. That's when the peace was born, trying to tell the whole thing down. Suck your police reform, you got hot takes. I'll start to get your ratio to bait me bro dope and I heart my reparations. Yo. Uh it's like that. Yeah, it's like this, and like that, waiting on reparations doesn't matter of fact. This is linga franca, dope knife. They call me mac why, Hey, yo's good. We're back. Lots

is good. This dope knife lingua franca and we are waiting on reparations. Delayed no further. It is. I'm super excited for some of the stuff we got coming up. Got some some some dope interviews with some dope people who got some interesting new topics and angles that we're

gonna be approaching this go around. And you know, the whole show was first launched during the beginning week of the George Floyd Uprising last summer, and so it's oddly poetic that here we are beginning our second season of the show as things have come full circle with the Derek Chauvin verdict having been verticized. I was just about to ask if anything happened while we were gone, anything anything, nothing ever happens, Please don't kill anyone ever. What was

your what was your whole feelings in that verdict? Well, I think that there was in general, like a clenching in the jaw and like a like a like a balling of the fists, like for the full hour where that I learned that it was coming, um, knowing even then like regardless that it didn't really I mean like in the grand scheme of things, the work would go on and in fact having a sense of fear that like if that like a guilty verdict would then allow

like reformists and liberals to like say, look, the system works, we don't need to do anything, like we're good to go pack it up and and since then, you know, it was reported Axios that members some members of Congress have felt that um Derek Chauvin's guilty verdict um has lessen the pressure on them to enact criminal justice reform, which so my fears are coming true. So yeah, I was gonna say, they can think that if they wanted.

I think the reason that that is not going to happen is because the Republicans are just the right wing in general feel it's it's almost like they have all fully gone in on Chauvin is innocent in the aftermath of things, which was I don't want to say shocking,

it's not the right word, just go with surprising. I was surprised that they took that heart of a turn because if you remember back during the summer, it was like, you know, the Ben Shapiros of the world and the Tucker Carlson's of the world, where they were using the George Floyd uh incident to almost as a tool so they could downplay other things, so they would be like, look, we all agree that Derek Chauvin is a terrible person, that George Floyd was murdered, so you know, there's more

to Brianna Taylor. It's not you know, they would they would use it in that way, and so I was expecting them to keep going on that end, kind of using this as like they're, hey, this is the one the one incident that we all agreed was bad, so that proves that we're not racist, or that systemic racism doesn't exist because the system worked, yuta, YadA. But no, it's like literally the second that the verdict was was read,

they were like, this is horseship desert sen. I can't believe that this is the PC capital culture of them. It's it's kind of nuts. It's kind of nuts. But I don't know if that's the right just from a political standpoint. I don't know if going to the Choban was innocent is the slogan that they want to be using. Yeah, I don't know. I mean I kind of hope they're right, and that like the whole oh, the Wolke mob scared the jury into like you know, you know, denying the

evidence before them. Like I mean, I like eight, I very very like obsessed with and like planned a lot of seeds of hoping like the power of the people, and like I know it's just one case out of the thousand people that are murdered by the police every year. Um, but like if millions of people rising up can like bring a modicum of justice even if it's not transformational, Uh good? But how do we how do you deal

with the volume of it? Because even now, you know, we're sitting here talking about the Chauvin verdict was what a week two weeks ago, and we're in the aftermath two other high profile police shootings right now. We're waiting new body cam footage coming out from Elizabeth Town was Elizabeth Elizabe City, North Carolina. Yeah, so that one's supposed to be bad. They're on a state of emergency. It's

like it almost never ends, you know. It's it's kind of depressing to think about in that way, especially so soon after the verdict was one for for people who did take some solace in it and found it as like a a small victory and an ocean of bad ship.

It's like the bad ship just ding. Yeah, like literally maybe six or seven minutes after like I watched the live stream of the Verdict reading like I learned about McCay brian and uh, just a see thing with rage that like the like the the casualties we will sustain in this like war for like transformation, like where there's so many people that are gonna die like in the year to come, that's in the years that it may

take to like transforming system. So I think maybe we should tackle the abolish the police or police reform or something again in the future. Yeah, I definitely come back around to it. We're not going to waste or any more time because we have a pretty long one for you guys today. We are about to have a long, in depth conversation with the one and only rapper activist Immortal Technique. I I'm trying real hard not to fanboy the funk out right now doing a terrible job blowing

on you got it a bit. When it was like, yeah, we're gonna talk to a border just a little bit, he was like, what I'm really enjoyed about this conversation is really two things. His humility, like his his willingness to this like chat for He was just like, yo, yeah, it was good, Like let's talk for as long as you all want to talk. I'm just kicking it. And also is continual, uh we framing of our conversation around the contexts and conditions for the things that he does.

So like when we asked him about like, oh, yeah, you built a fucking school in Afghanistan, instead up being like, yeah, I went over there and then I met kids, we played soccer, and I like, you know, ate the traditional food. He was like, yeah, let me talk to you about like foreign intervention in the Middle East and like it's impacts and like imperialism in the military industrial complex, like all is bringing it back to like these larger systems that like that that like spur him to do what

he does. And I found that really really like inspiring that Like yeah, I mean obviously from his music you can tell like he thinks very systemically, but like he don't know if he knows how to turn it off, which is kind of fucking sick thing. I really dug is. I mean, it's not that I had any reason to not think that this would be the case, but it's just he seems like a really really nice guy, you know,

like like a genuine nice, good dude. So you know, without further ado, we're gonna get into that and we will holler at y'all we're gonna have that interview coming up for you after the junk. Y know, today we are going to be talking with legendary m C Immortal Technique, Immortal, how you doing so? On this show, what we try to do is bridge the gap between politics and hip hop and discuss things that you know, always revolve around how those two things intersect and how they affect each

other vice versa. And you, you know, for better or worse, you're known as like the at this point, you're like the political rapper, you know what I'm saying. We even had a little poll on Instagram that we did when we first launched the show when we were like, what do y'all think of when you think of political rap or political hip hop? And most people said, oh, Mortal,

oh Mortal, yeah, Mortal Technique. You know. So, my question is what influenced you when you were coming up in terms of like that specifically not necessarily your rap style or your rhyme scheme style, but what MCS or music did you look towards when you were writing and you were like, oh, that's the angle that I can take or that that I should take. UM well, I think I had a lot of different influences coming up. One of the main ones obviously was care and rest one

and rock Him. So I grew up listening to people that were well versed in the art of lyricism, so that was a major influence from day one. Um. I was always a big uh. I was always a person who was big on lyrics. I had a lot of respect for the people that I've seen do it because

I knew it wasn't easy. Um. I think for me as an adult looking back and at this stage in my career when I'm out here, you know, still making music or trying to put some new stuff out now, UM, I just tend to look back and make those same kind of assessments about my life before you guys asked a question like that. It's just funny. I tend to think about these things and wonder, you know, who were

the individuals who set me on this path. And it wasn't just famous rappers, but it was also the example of people in my community, um, revolutionary figures, and they definitively influenced the style of of music that I have

and I wouldn't have this style. I wouldn't be doing what I do without them, you know what I mean, even the not just the ones that we remember from the past that are all heralded and have movies about them, but the ordinary folks that I met in my life that I learned, um, not just revolutionary politics from, but an understanding of what it was like to exist as a person UM who was black or brown in the United States of America about twenty or thirty years ago,

as opposed to going through that childhood experience at like the nineties, UM in my twenties in the early two thousand's when I was paroled. So I just enjoyed that that different wealth of knowledge that was bestowed upon me. But I would say in terms of hip hop, it was those two that I learned and was influenced by, and then later on in life also you know, obviously the Panthers and Malcolm, but also Ma Mia bou jamal Um. I feel like patrous Lamumba is a person who's overlooked

a lot. And I think, UM sometimes when we look at indigenous figures of revolution um or whitewashed and written out of history. So it's important to go back and talk to those indigenous people about what their struggles actually were before it gets redefined to us by you know, mainstream society, which will paint something very you know what I mean. They don't really give you the opportunity to represent yourself in the best way, which is why I

guess I always wanted to do independent music. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about your verse on are the Ruggomans Who Do We Trust? Which came out in January on the track Your Reference thinkers like Leo Strauss and Robert Michaels, and one of our listeners wanted to know if there was any early revolutionary writing that inspired your own writing. And I'm personally also curious

what you've been reading these days. Um uh. I think that, um, what I enjoy reading, or have always enjoyed reading, is a very very detailed historical account of how things were. And I think that it's one thing to talk about revolutionary politics and ideology, but unless you can define the time period upon which it happens, I think that is

essential to revolutionary change. For example, um, we'll all love boxing in the UFC, but one of the first times in which we know that this was done to people. A gladiatorial arts was born. The birth of it was during the Servile Wars in the Roman Republic, not the Empire yet the Republic where everything was supposed to be fixed, and there was a certain area that refused conscription, and so the survivors of this revolt were made to fight

to the death against UM. Everyone now sees this in a different, you know, format on tele vision in one way or another. But just remember that the Third Servile War was where we heard the name Spartacus, which is the only gladiator gladiator from ancient Rome that people remember, really, I mean, we struggled to find another one. But it was after that that the Roman Republic collapsed within fifties and became an empire that was more efficient but less

free in many ways than people thought. But at the same time, the degree of freedom that the Republic bestowed upon people um wasn't seen by individuals on the bottom tiers of that society. And we see that reflection in the United States of America, and music is just a reflection of that, and people who want to give that a voice in our society or or or remind individuals of what we've gone through and everything has its place.

So you know, I always tell people, yeah, I'm not the person that you're most likely going to hear banging in the background of the stre club. But at the same time, the music that I make is not club music, so to speak. Sure there's some stuff that's catchy that moves you, but it was made to to generate thought,

you know what I mean. In the same way a book has flashy metaphors and great concepts, but unless there's a point to it all, you know what I mean, Unless there's a plot, then what the hell did I just read for four hundred pages? You know what I mean? Where where is this going? So I think that's always been something that I've emphasized, and now I'm doing a whole bunch of other stuff scriptwriting. Um I'm reading for a couple of parts that people have asked me to

come aboard. I'm not an actor by trade, but I guess they think I look scary and I know how to I can. I can memorize like ten pages and a day and it's super easy. And I had just literally got aboard with this type of stuff. So basically just that, um, I was in a extend the stuff that I've been doing musically, two books and film, not just for adults but for kids, which is weird because you've got to relearn how to rhyme like a kid, which is funny. You've got to make it the most

basic format possible, which I'm not used to doing. I'm used to taking the most complicated words and phrases and putting them together, so you know what I mean. It's like asking someone who's a chess player to play checkers. You know, if you're a chess player, man, you're great at chess. But a checkers player, right, white people off the board and the checkers because it's a different game.

That's how you see, you know, boxing, m m m a. Some people are really good at one sport, Please don't get in the other because it's a different game, right, I remind people. Um. So, something that we're interested in is the concept of using like hip hop as a tool for education, UM or even activism or organizing. What are your thoughts on that? Um? I think you could definitely say hip hop could be used, but any musical

form I think could be used. And I think what I've discovered on this journey of writing the middle Passage is that that's exactly what the world before we call it the New World or or European colonialism from the fourteen to the eighteen centuries, nineteenth century in many places. But I think when we look at that, all forms

of learning were done through a musical system. Even now, Um, none of us learned the alphabet through a numerical system, although in some languages letters have a significant number attached to him, but all of us learned the alphabet A, B, C, D, very as a as a musical skain Um. Everything that was taught to us as a society was done through music.

One of the most riveting things that was brought to my attention, that is just the truth people have known for a long time but escaped me, was that there were tens of thousands of individual African instruments that were destroyed during the course of the Middle Passage, and these were the rhythms, these were the songs, These were the lessons that were taught to young people about what it means to be a warrior, what it means to be

a man, what it means to be a person. Where your places in life, where your places with your people, where your places in the universe. Yes, abstract concepts like that existed very much, so do people. It wasn't like individuals were just ignorant living in huts like a stereotype would have people think. No, these were very very well developed societies for the people that had the means to get to them, which is the flaw that they inherently had,

which is how they became colonized so easily. You know, they when you have a pyramid system, you just have to knock over the head of the snake, so to speak. That's how they thought of and that's what you do to any society. You say, Okay, I have a pyramid that I wanted to defeat. If you knock off the head of the snake, and everything else comes down. Which is why people have misunderstood American politics for so many is you want to knock go off the head of

the snake. But now you're facing the hydra. You're not just facing colonialism through one means, you're facing uh culmination of that religion which paid plays a heavy role in the colonization, not just for Africans and Indigenous people. That's a laughing mythology that I think needs to be confronted no, it's done wonders to enslave white people as well and have them work against their own interests and work against workers rights, which again you're dealing with the clergy. The

clergy are uh beyond the bourgeoire institution. The clergy manipulate in every society a bourgeoisre institution and also uh, the workers of all institutions, because all of them have some faith so to speak. There are very few people in our society when we talk about a global a community that are atheists. I mean, I love y'all when I get to meet y'all out there, whatever y'all are watching, the no disrespect. I even took my camera off for y'all.

I don't do that for nobody. I love to talk to you all because I think it's an interesting philosophical conversation. But again, the vast majority of the planet believes in God, and someone else has understood that for thousands of years, and it was just really smart to be able to manipulate it to create the bastions of the society we have now. And that's just what, oh my god, they imagine we could talk about all the rest of them, you know what I mean? Gender politics, men, women, you

know what I mean, Uh, foreign policy. Sorry, So I'm glad you touched on like the diversity but also in some certain aspects the uniformity of like global cultures with regards to religion. You know, millions and billions people across

the world believe in religion, but do so differently. And in recent episodes, we tried to shift our spotlight from North American issues towards a more global perspective, highlighting the work and a recent incarceration of Marxist Lenningist rapper blow A Cell. We talked about the political life of Ugandan rapper turned presidential candidate Bobby Wine. Um and in your own music and activists, and we've often highlighted the struggles

against colonialism, particularly global South. Um and I recently, I guess, like last year I was talking with Antela Davis about the importance of international solidarity. And I often have this on my mind, you know, working in local politics myself, when people get frustrated, when they're trying to get like they street paved, like not necessarily seeing the relevance of like what's going on in Haiti or what's going on

in Bolivia. So UM, I just wanted to ask you, what do you think we can achieve through displays of international solidarity, both as musicians and as activists. Well, first, I would say that you don't need to have a degree in politics to to understand these things. For anyone out there who thinks that we're asking the impossible of people, um, when we asked them to be aware, there are plenty aware. You know. You see people who live in a jungle who don't live in a big city, they're very aware

different things. You live people who live in a big city and they jump through traffic the way I do, like it's nothing. And someone else who doesn't live in a city where there's just gigantic things coming back and forth at eighty miles an hour wouldn't get that. They think you're risking your life, but to me, it's as

simple as running through whatever. Um. I think that there's been this sort of um primitive verse uh futuristic um ideology that's been pushed on us that the past or that the things that we've encountered as part of our struggle in our society are primitive and this is the new world where everything is futuristic, but it's just organized barbarism.

I remind people that's what your face when you face imperialism and when you talk about the South or when you talk about Africa, where you talk about South America Asia. At the end of the day, whether it's a person of color or a white person or any other person in charge of a society, it's just about the resources. You know. The ideas that all of Latin America was some communist haven for years, No, it wasn't that. It was just that those were the only two things that

people were serving, pepsi and coke. You know, whenever a leftist society came into power, they immediately consolidated um um, the different political parties of the left that existed and said no, we're gonna be one party now. And when the right wing came in, it was the same thing. They would consolidate everything that the ideology is secondary, the control of the resources is first, and that again gives

way to the listen. I don't want to give you guys quotes that are gonna go viral, but just here's the problem with America. People are are fighting imaginary socialism and they don't know what socialism is. It's just workers controlling the means of their production and everything else is fancy dressing. And if people don't understand that, then they're the ones that are being shorted. If they want to

talk about how taxes are legal. Yes, absolutely, all these other things that we have in common with other political fields I can draw truth from. You know, if I run into a religious Christian person and tells me, you know, America is the Satanist society, I say yes, but not because women have access to healthcare. It's because you've killed so many children in the rock and you have no

idea about that. You know. Anything left of hunting the homeless for sport is communism and that's but that's the truth of what we see in our society. And the truth is that it's not that we have to worship one political ideology or the other. You can see the truth in either one because everything comes out in the wash. And when there's cold heart facts, what what did the policy produce? You know? What did it make? You know? Has trickled down economics ever worked? No? You know, has

has violent overthrow of a society worked to some degree? Yes? You know? Is that the only way that a society can change? No? So I mean I think that that's the real question. You know, their early civil rights organizers had to ask fundamental questions to themselves. They said, you know, do as black people, is the point to have a country of our own inside America? Get along with white folks and make them respect the laws that make them get along with us, or go back to Africa. This

is this was the Garvey movement. That was the idiot, that was the focus that he was confronted with. And you know, being a Harlem might I learned this history very early that these were the existential questions that people struggle with. And you can still find a society that never got a definitive answer for a lot of people because they say, well, what the hell am I doing here? I see people relocating back to to to to Africa

because there's economic opportunity over there. I see people leaving the East Coast going to the South saying, hey, you know what, there's just uh easier way to set up a business here. People are in general leaving the United States because they don't see it as the hedgemonic power

that it was. Does that mean it's the end of it? No, um empires don't die quickly that way, But I think that the writing is on the world for the rest of the world, that the day that of America just being able to do business however she wants to around the world is gone. And you know, human beings again back to square one, have to deal with those resources. You know, where can we get them cheaply? Who can we get them to make us for Let's set up a global society so we can buy them with pieces

of nothing on a computer. It used to be pieces of paper which meant nothing. Before that it was actually metal which was worth something. And now we have numbers on the screen, glitches in the computer. So um, it's a it's a lot to impact. But going along with that line, how do you feel about like America's current political on it? Because like I, for one, I grew up I mean I'm I'm from Liberia and I grew up in Africa most of my childhood, so I mean,

I know tribalism when I see it. And we all know that Democrat Republican there are a lot of similarities in a lot of ways. We all know Biden is a center right Republican with a D next to his name at the end of the day. But with that said, there is like a clear fascist bent with America's right wing right now, and it just from from from my gut and from the way things are looking, it's not looking like that's gonna let up anytime soon. How do

you feel about that? Well, with respect to the right wing, I think what we're we all need to keep in perspective is that, regardless of how we think they're fascist, these people see themselves as fighting evil. And I'm not gonna say the ones that are part of a religious society that secretly go home and and shake their hands together and say, ohaha, look what I've accomplished, like I have to believe in this ship publicly, but it's all bullshit to me. They're gonna be people like that in

every ideology around the world. But a vast majority of right wing Christians believe in something called the Seven Mountains, and the Seven Mountains the theory based on the reclaiming of institutions in the United States, education, um, you know, entertainment, all these things. The Seven Mountains are the retaking of the soul so to speak, of the United States that they believe has been destroyed. Now they found a convenient

target with liberalism. The idea that all of a sudden, this this idea that somehow connected to the left or it's far left or no, I mean Donald Trump beat Hillary Clinton running with far left talking points, so to speak, far left right? What's far left confronting the United States about having these horrible predatory relationships with other countries that produce clothes. God, I are Republicans talking about that now? And this is what it fostered, having no gatekeepers to

to knowledge. So you have elites complaining about other elites. You know, look at Brexit. The people that were pushing Brexit, we're talking about elites, and they went to to Exeter, they went to they went to Oxford, and these are the people talking about these elites want to take everything from you. No, it's just that you garner the benefit of a global society. And now people want people to pay their due. And I think that's what individuals have

a problem with. You know, why does Hades still have to keep money in a French bank? Why do West African nations still have to do that? That that's absurd. Um In the moment they do a deal with the Chinese or with Russia, they're called communists and they're alienated. But again it just goes back to those resources. That's it. And and again I hate and bring it back full circle to that all the time, but that essentially what

it is. So I mean, do you have like a sense that we're coming towards um, if not just in the US, just globally, do you think we're coming towards uh reckoning of their being limited resources on this earth? Um? I think for certain things, yeah, I think people are going to have to deal with a lot of renewable stuff for a while if we can get the society to reboot in that way. Um. A lot of people thought that was what the pandemic was about, but no,

it was just about creating. Uh. You know, listen, I'm not one of these people that think it's fake. Please no, listen. I didn't go that far out there in my time away from making music. But I definitely think the government overplayed its hand in controlling things, and you know, took advantage of this time, which is exactly what governments do. I mean, when people talk about Russia or China interfering in our elections, I say, if they could, they would.

If we could intervene in China, Russia's elections. We absolutely wouldn't. We have intervened in elections around the world. So, I mean, that's where the pearl clutching gets crazy for me, because I, as a student of history, just look at it and say, you know, are we gonna have a giant civil war? You know, I don't know, but I know that if we do, it will be just to the benefit of global powers like China, Russia, any emerging African union or

Latin American union that comes out. You know, we're talking again about a global society, and and and that will give birth to other superpowers, the ones that we've kept down. You know, it's no secret that the war in between I Rock and Iran destabilized both of those countries to the benefit of the other superpowers around them, because then they've flowed in and said, well, now you have to become dependent on me and and and that's an interesting

way of looking at it. But before it was the Baptists in in in in Iraq who were supported by Russia. Now you know you have the Iranians that are being supported by RESIS. So again, you know, these these are the politics that people have in the beginning of our fight against ISIS it was the Kurds who were on the front line, and then you know, two years later

they were abandoned and thrown to the wayside. And that's politics and that's business, and you know, I think people get emotionally attached to one side because it represents something that you know, it is intertwined with all of their personal relationships. So it's difficult to ask a person to change their politics. You're asking them to change all of their friends, You're asking them to change all of their associations.

You're not just asking them to change their opinion, You're asking them to change who they are, which is why it's very difficult for people to confront some of the things that they've been told because their reality and their

their identity rely on those beliefs to be true. You know. Now, when you get something as ridiculous is like trailer park scientology Q and non bullshit that people buy into, then you become one of the people that has to recreate these fantasies about, oh my god, when is this overthrow actually coming? Just like a person who gets sucked into another fantasy and gets asked about, Okay, when is this

great change coming from our progressive society. Where are these these these platforms they keep running on that they keep promising us this is the last election before America goes into fascism, And the rest of us are like, okay, but you're offering a diet coke version of that. You're not actually offering the change because that requires you to not be funded by major corporations and they need that money.

There you go, I feel like some of what you had to say about like are reckoning with the finite

resources we have? And then prettily when you touched upon, uh, you know, US intervention in various forms of foreign interntion in places like Iraq and kind of started making me think a little bit about I don't know if you've read Naomi Nami clients the shock Doctrine, um, but so yeah, yeah, but sort of what she has to say about disaster capitalism, and that brought me to my next question about the way that a lot of Americans have seen, you know,

outside of like what happened in two thousand five and down in with Katrina, the privatization of various relief efforts as a way for people to make money off of death and no economic forcarity. I think on a massive scale across the country. We've been seeing people come to reckon with the reality of disaster capitalism through the pandemic. As you know, billionaires gained seventies six billion dollars in wealth over the course of the pandemic as more people

are shopping with Uber and Amazon. Meanwhile, the rest of us can't pay our rent. And this I think has also accelerated some radicalization among the public. Um. You know, just seeing are the government's failure to the well not really failure, the government's prior ization of the economy over human life, and things like that. In addition to you know, the uprising last summer increasing people's awareness of racial injustice

and the reality of the police state. Um And we've also seen a lot of artists who were previously a political suddenly having an opinion about what's going on with mixed results. So I wanted to ask your opinion on these trends about you know, people's radicalization during the pandemic, as well as the artistic response we've seen, as well as how COVID has impacted your activism and artistry personally.

I think for me, one of the reasons why I formed the charity Rebel Larbie runs is because during the pandemic, my sales actually went up. Obviously I couldn't tour because there was no touring and you couldn't even be indoors many places, but online the following that I had UH continued to come out and droves and support, and I had new people are buying UM from all over the world that wanted to hear that kind of music UM. And I think, you know, there's an old saying to

to who much has given, much is expected. And I thought to myself, if I'm doing good, let me just spread the well. Make sure people know that I want to take care of the community. I want to make sure harlem Is is doing well. And also because during this time, I went to the grocery store my parents and I actually witnessed one of those little mini riots over like toilet paper and other essentials. And I said, this is a very very low intensity version of what

really a lack of resources will have. And it did show me. It showed I saw rich people that you know, normally wouldn't shove someone else for lettuce and kale and milk and and other resources do terrible things to one another, which is why I think it reinforces to me the absolute disgusted I have in a society that blames poor people for their own conditions. Let's see you not eat for a few days, We'll see how you act in line. How about this, Let your child not have dinner the

night before. We'll see how he does on the test the next day. These things that people take for granted when they have their bellies full, and I'm no exception, so when I see things like that, obviously I've seen a lot of terrible things in my life. But I think what that tuned me into is once you get over the initial trauma of what you've seen, you digest Wow, this is just how the world works. And you know it's not a question of you wanting to change the

nature of human beings. Sure you can, you just have to painstakingly go through each human being. I tell people, if you want to make people do something quickly fast, sure you can brainwash them into some political movement, and that has had positive and negative results for people. But

making real hard change is a community change. It's a small scale change that first it takes years to build, and what makes it so vulnerable is that the people who have the greatest vision for it are always the ones that are ripped down and destroyed, and there is no place holder. And if you rely on those people to bring you through your your your struggle and your fight, you realize how fallible a human being can actually be.

And you see that many of the heroes that we've had throughout our history have done things that would make them definitively canceltable in our society today. That is just like wow, okay. But at the same time, when you look at them for what they've done and and what they partook in, just being able to have that that armament of knowledge I think is necessary whenever you meet someone who's so entrenched in their own politics that you just take them out of it. I had friends of

mine I go down in Miami. Good God, you know, I have arguments to people down there, but I always tell them and we laugh because I tell if you don't the difference between George Washington and Czech of Bara,

they're both the fathers of their country. They both killed prisoners of war, but George Washington actually owned slaves and Chegivara just said a bunch of racist ship when he was in Africa because he was frustrated with how things were going, and he grew up as a white Latino in a really privileged fucking society that he wouldn't have even been able to acknowledge as much politics as he had with everything else. So where do you want me

to go with all this? I mean that when you bring stuff like that into the conversation, it just forces people to say, all right, let me just take a hard look at my society. What what? How did everything get to be this way? You know, why why is the world this way? And you know, there's no one simple reason, there's no one simple uh riddle that when it's answered, is gonna give you all the answers to life.

But there are small victories that you can gain. And I think that's why people look for the quick and easy. You know, mac that that's why people want the fast solution Mariah to politics, which is always okay, let's build a movement really quickly get something we want. But the American left big failure is, you know, we want a bigger slice of the pie, never asking whose hands are in that pie? How many children were working for you know, twenty hours on a conveyor belt to make that pie.

You know what's actually the ingredients of the pie? You want a slice of this? What if America goes to ship now you want equity in the company? What are you doing? Again? Back to Marcus Garvey's existential question for black and brown people, do you want to country in your own? Do you want to go back to where you to where people stole you from? Or do you want to just get along with the people here? That's it and again to me, I would rather live with

human beings. I definitely see the right wing in Europe is different than the right wing in America because there's much more of an anti multiculturalist society vibe there, but that's definitely growing here in the United States. I think the difference is that, you know, the religious right makes it uh or encourages there to be black and brown people that are conservative, to give not just the movement I would say, dressing, no, but to actually give it

foot soldiers and to give it believers and donors. You know, Latino conservatives. I laughed, and people talk about, oh, I can't believe Mexicans voted for Trump, and I say, well, what are you talking about? A lot of Latinos have grown up in a very conservative society. That's what Reagan's vision was that a lot of presidents before Trump were very I wouldn't say better than Democrats, but relative to the way Democrats were deporting people, gave more opportunities for

individuals to be there, and not just Cubans. But that's just an unfortunate reality that we see. And the top deport the top deporters have lately been Democrats. So, I mean, when you look at the way the left has poised itself as this huge defender of immigrants, and that's really hasn't been what it's been, you know what I mean. It's like the show I Love My Brother Iced Tea is on a great show, s vu Man, wonderful show. But go report a sex crime in New York. You're

not gonna get smilet detectives. Sometimes people who care you find real human beings who are swamped with eighty cases, a hundred cases. They don't know what to say in many situations, I don't know. I think that for what I can control, for what I can put out there. UM, my message to people has always been, um, keep asking those questions that make people uneasy, you know, make sure that if we do believe in a multicultural society like I mentioned, and that we don't allow a right or

a left wing um shove because of a nine eleven effect. Um, we don't allow that to interrupt the idea that listen, we're just human beings with different female types. You know, if if you read I think you asked me at the very beginning, what book I was reading? Um? Or

is it? I think it's DA. I was rereading D Civilization Barbarism, and I thought it was great because it talked about the early uh kind of society that human beings lived in when they were not the dominant speecies on the planet, when they were just trying to hold

it together. And the whole idea that people say, oh, well, capitalism is this futuristic thing and socialism is a primitive principle, And I say, well, that primitive principle is about as primitive as it is making fire, and that's what everybody needs. People still need fire today, you moron, like the primitive principle of sharing and having some communal society where people have a game for what they put in. Yeah, we have a diet coke version of the at with you know, uh,

social security that it's probably gonna be canceled. UM and the other government programs that don't really address the need for a lot of people that are left out. I hate the backtrack, but you mentioned the Rebel Army runs earlier. Could you explain to people exactly what that is and what y'all do? Oh, but thank you. It's something that I modeled off the UM the Black Panther Parties, free breakfast program UM. But something that I always remember it is one of my o G s was um. Uh.

He was from the Black Panthers. But one of the things that I learned, God rest his soul. He passed away. His name is Elder Brother smith so all the o G Black Panthers know him. Um. But he explained something to me when I was a kid, and he said, never forget that the Black Panthers were not these adults that you see play them on TV. These were It's the reason that I was there as not because I was going to be a Panther, is because I joined the b l A, the Black Liberation Army at that time.

And Elder Brother Smithy was a Vietnam veteran who had spent years at war and understood all these tactics, and I think that, UM. One of the things that I clearly remember learning UM and adapting from his example, was that the movement is built by young people, right, and in order for them to have any success, they're gonna see the elders fail in some way, shape or form, and UM, we have to learn from these failures and

these successes. And he said, never forget. The thing that we remember the most is when people cut the supply line, then there's nothing an army awadge marches on its stomach. And I said to him, okay, wow. So seeing a pandemic struck New York City, I said to myself, we need to reach out to Brooklyn, Queen's Harlem. And we even did one UM in philling with the move organization

people because I've always been a big supporter of MoMA. UM. But I think that it was just seeing that need and when people say there was a toilet paper shortage, there wasn't just a toilet paper shortage, brother, there was, um a shortage of feminine products, which is crazy, a shortage of baby food and diapers, all kinds of other stuff.

So we basically jumped in to fulfill the need. Only that instead of servicing young people because you can't have soup kitchens during the pandemic, you can't be indoors with anybody. You can't even give people food with the same spoon. You gotta go watch the school after it's in their bowl. So at that point we got these nonperishable goods, about two weeks worth of food UM, and we started giving them to the senior centers at UM the Nightsha housing

projects in New York City. So we serviced at first UM three projects, UH the Grant Houses which are by where my old block was. UM. Then we had the Albany Houses which was in Brooklyn UM my Troy Avenue, and then we had the Dikemand Houses. So these were the first three places that we were really supporting UM, and then we've extended ourselves to a few other locations

as well. And it's just been heartwarming and heartbreaking because there have been government programs that I paid attention to that would have been around for the better part of fourteen fifteen years that were recently canceled, like during the pandemic or right before, and you know that wasn't taken into a out. A lot of people don't get their check or sometimes a check is laid or whatever it

may be. So postal system acting up made that even worse. Um, so people became reliant on some of these food drops. And the heartbreaking part is when you go there once a month and you see that somebody has obviously made a two week pack stretch for a whole month and they're they're really right there back on it. And these people aren't on drugs, they're they're hard working, they're working

whatever job they can get. And it's offensive to me again when I see people blame poor people for their conditioned like, oh, I look at this homeless person, Go get a job. Yeah, I wonder what that motherfucker's resume looks like. Man, you know, you gotta clean himself up first. Here all those ten years of missing can't go positive in a job interview. What kind of social skills as a person have and what do they have to be

retaught and helped with. If a society really is taxing people to the point of, you know, they're not being able to pay their other bills, you know, then what about the services that it provides? And at the end of the day, that's not what it's here for. That is the window dress them. We're here because we have a militaristic society that has gain control of resources, and I'm doing whatever I can on the ground to give those resources. I'm bringing it all the way back. I'm

giving out those free resources to the community. So from the beans, pound of rice, um and milk UM, the two weeks supply of oatmeal. Uh, we have mac and cheese soups UM. I think ravioli is just a ton of good stuff. We try to keep a low sodium for a bunch of the products that we have because again we're dealing with elders. But because we deal with elders, we always get inshore, which I've realized is a god send to two elderly poe. UM. We gave away hats

and gloves um during the coldest part of the winter. UM. And then we have penia light and like pepto bismol. Just because I know a lot of the elders, they take care of kids and a lot of black and Latino families. So while the parents is working, the grandparents is at home with the kids. So leave them, you know, whatever other stuff they get pampers, kids medicine every year, every every week we're making a drop somewhere, so there's a there's a page for it on Instagram at Rebel

Lorbie Runs. I think one of the most beautiful things that's emerged from the pandemic is this awareness of an engagement in mutual aid and just communities coming together to support each other, support those that are without, so that there may be a time in the future that person can get back to someone who previously had their back. And you know, like as an elected official like I

also embraced that kind of work. I understand that so much community building used to be done outside of the state because like we don't we don't necessarily have a highly functional government at various levels of the United States. But ultimately when you when you scale up projects like that, there's so much of the federal government locally even state governments can do that, like ordinary people can't do like y'all out here buying like pedialite, Like imagine how mupedia

light the federal government could be buying in bulk. They get just they get the nationalized pedia life, the nationalized corporation and everybody get free. PI lie right and so um to you, what would you say it's like the biggest like piece of public like public policy issue at the federal level that you think needs to be addressed.

Right now. We've talked a lot about how these systems interconnect with militarism, imperialism, oligarchy, all these things, but like if there could be like a single piece of public policy that you can put the current news cycle, Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. So, yeah, Well, here's what the thing that's interesting that I see is happening little by little. It just happened in New York, the legalization of marijuana. And I remind people before we start partying and rolling up joints.

Um at John Jay uh College of Criminal Justice, I was there to see Jim Bretto's and I was there to see Dr Cornel West and had a wonderful conversation about something called restorative justice. And what that means is that if the government is paying its bills with weed money, then it shouldn't be putting you in jail or being able to take away your voting rights. Are doing the same thing or having done the same thing at some

point in time. So even though as a public policy issue, I know that people think this is already dealt with where we legalize that it's done. Now, that's the catch. You have to follow through the whole way, and I think that's where people find whatever movement lacking. You know, there has to be more followed through in that sense. So before people say, okay, let's just open up dispensaries and all this stuff, what about those people who haven't been able to get a job because of that the

criminal history. But those those felonies on their record for possession, or people that have done no harm to anybody but themselves. You know, you look at a lot of people who use drugs, the person who, unfortunately they've heard most is themselves. Now when you couple this with other horrific crimes, all right, uh, you're gonna find me to be less sympid than it obviously.

But um, I think for the vast majority of people who are have been caught with drugs or have drugs on their record, it's been something that it has been racialized, politicized every size in the world. And I think that it's it's a giant issue because it's not just something that you know, our government uses for slush money, for slush funds. No, it upholds a huge part of the American economy, but people to to not know what the

pharmaceutical industry is. It's a cartel in the United States of America, like Narcos, except better dressed than everybody speaks shitty English. Yeah, so this is what I mean, this is what we're doing. Yeah. So something that I don't think a lot of people know about you or doesn't really get talked about with you as often as I

think it should. This might be some two insider, some fanship, but um, I think like around two thousand nine, two ten, you helped build an orphanage in a school in Afghanistan, And like I remember that was like around the time that that was happening. I had I'd known about you and I had heard your music, but that was when I think I was like kind of really becoming a

fan just of your music just in general. And then that I heard about that happening, you know, like that's something that you were doing outside of music, I just remember thinking, why isn't this like a bigger deal, you know what I'm saying. So I'm just just did you ever end up how how how did that whole thing come about? And did you end up ever doing anything

like that again. Throughout the years since UM, I was invited to Afghanistan, as I met these people from an organization call me and this is a hard grouping, super hard group of young people that were making changes in their community. And they approached me after a show about UM potentially doing some collaborative UM. I didn't know anything about orphanage building or anything else at the time school

building UM. But UM through a painstaking process of learning slowly and really exercising the most amount of star power that I could at the time to fundraise a good hundreds and some five thousand dollars. I had the exact figures, but UM, so everything had to be done by the book had to be on paper. UM. And then to actually go out there and oversee the final stage is of construction. UM myself was just life change. UM. I

think I learned a lot about humanity in general and Afghanistan. UM. I think that I learned from the moment I got there that the only reason we hold that country is because we paid off all of these war lords. UM. I think that it's strategically close to China, and people forget that too as much. People have forgot that more than they forgot that I went there and build an orphanage. People forget that we have hundreds of thousands of troops

at the border of China. Does China have hundreds of thousands of troops anywhere near the border of the United States? When we talk about Russia being worried about us, you know, did we overthrow Canada the way that they overthrow Canada?

The way we overthrew the Ukraine? You know, just seeing the lives, the everyday lives of the people in Afghanistan really gave me some hope for the human race because I said, for every you know, soft hearted individual that I don't think it's gonna make it that I run through, uh run into here in the United States. These people here that it survived nuclear winter, like these are just tough people. But again the reality of what their toughness

is was brought to mind. You know, I had a conversation with a young guy who was a professor, right and he was a very soft spoken, very well mannered. Legs crossed I email and I asked him. I was like, you know, not to be rude. I just wanted to know.

I said, you know, what did you do during the Jahat and he in a very soft spoken man and said to me that there are the RPG teams were divided into two people, and that one person was the shooter and the other carried fourteen or fifteen RPGs in a back pack and he had to be really careful so he didn't blow And I said, Jesus Christ, I said, so what did you do? And he said, I carried

RPGs for most of the war. And he goes, you know, usually people blow up, but I had a really good gunner, and you know, and he looked like an average ordinary guy, not a heartful person. Is the type of dude you would see in Soho waiting online for a latte. And here he was a battle hardened warrior. And not that he wore it on his shoulder like some badge of honor like people like to put in movies. No, but

his lesson of the day was even more horrific. It said, we lost an entire generation of poets, teachers, lawyers, doctors. So anyway, he had the brother just told me about all the people in his society that he had lost in that generation. He said, that's the price of freedom, that's the price of being a quote unquote unconquerable people, you know, of everyone saying, well, the USSR failed here, and England failed here, and uh, the United States is on its way out as well. This is the price

we've pay. You know, during the Russian invasion, we lost almost a million people and they lost eighteen thousand people, and we were willing to trade six seven lives for one. But imagine how many people were lost, how many brilliant minds, how many uh, you know, creative intellect intellects were snuffed out. And that's the price of freedom, That's the price of

of being unconquered. That's the real price of revolution. If you're in a room full of revolutionaries, just take a look around you and imagine the revolution is over and more than half of them are gone. Because that's how it is. That's the price that you have to pay to change lives, is to put your life up on the line. And it doesn't always have to be in

some like messianic sacrificial way. No, Sometimes it's a slow burn of putting your entire life into something so you can move the needle a little bit, because you know that moves everything else. You know that that that was my experience in Afghanistan. Um, it was a success in every sense of the word. Um Did I ever do

anything like that? Afterwards? Yeah, I was involved in the program UM called Arms Around Haiti and Hip Hop for Haiti, which came out of s O. B S which is a club in downtown New York where a lot of the staff were Haitian Caribbean um and basically in general we wised raised a ton of money doing a show with um Uh styles p and Uh Cormega and White Cleft.

And this is the thing I always tell people, like when when people talk about White Cleft and all that thing, the stuff that happened with Yelle and Haiti, I say, they can't say a bad word to me about that man, because I physically was there and I saw that there were a series of apartment structures that had elapsed and they were like forty children that were homeless and they

were finding their parents. And White Cleft had these forty children living in in like the background of the house had like a nursing staff, people doing for other people. I saw people digging people out of the rubble. I saw a human spirit that is just unbroken. As for whatever happened afterwards, I can't answer for that. But when I was down there, I saw people that were really committed to making a change. And what we did is that we purchased two homes for an older woman who

had brought some of these orphans into the house. So it wasn't the exact same thing as over there, because obviously we were in the shadow of a lot larger and more well structured organizations. But for whatever we did, you know, we raised you know, but things like dollars at the show, and then we went out there. We got these homes and a bunch of kids had places to sleep, and we had food to feed them. And you know, the other people, I think they're fund uh.

One thing that I saw them do is actually they restructured water purifier that was broken, So I saw a real change happening there. There is a incredible amount of corruption, but I think that that is not something that the United States should be ever pointing the finger at Haiti about it. So it's important to recognize these things and put them into perspective. So when people say, oh, Haiti is so corrupt, I say, yeah, sure, up front at

the airport, Yeah you're gonna see corruption in general. But here in the United States, how do you think bills get past? Like here, there's plenty of corruption. It's just the stakes are higher and you have to be in the right room. And they don't take money from strangers. That's it. Understand corruption in the United States versus corruption in the third world. They'll take the money from strangers in the United States and in other developed worlds, they'll

take your money. They just want to know that you're not a fed or a cop and you're gonna get them in trouble. So they won't take money from strangers. That's it. But if they know you when you in France and you got to connect, don't take your money. If you need something, everything's for sale. There you go. Okay,

before I let you go. When I first heard that The Middle Passage was going to be the name of your next album, I'm pretty sure George W. Bush was still president, I dude, so like, what's up for real? The long awaited Middle Passage album? I'm asking that kind of selfishly, as you know, on some immortal technique fanboy ship. But you know, I'm sure that our listeners who enjoy you too, who right now follow you on Instagram and whatnot what's up with that? When's it coming out? Or

I don't even want to ask it like that. I'm in the studio tomorrow. I was in the studio UM in California about a week ago with Chino exceled so we finished a song with him and one of the artist UM Global Artist UM. And I think it's just been a process of trying to get it coupled with everything else going on in my life. UM. I wish I could blame it on one thing, like just procrastination or just you know, the issues that I dealt with.

But there were there were some technical stuff that we had to do and that involved some people that were on the record that UM no longer be on it see UM. Then I think that for me, having learned the business, I didn't want to sample as much so UM I wanted to use interpolations, so we had to replay a lot of the music. Also, one thing that was important to me about the recording of this record

is that I wrote a lot of old songs. UM. Some of the songs I probably five or six of them months actually really old songs that are from the era in which I really started working on this, And I just reworked the concept and of course and a better lyricist than I was back then. Um, But I let people know that when you make a record that's honoring uh an African genocide. So so the album is

gonna be like about the middle Pass. Well, there's definitely aspects of that, but things that are related to it as well and how that built the society that we live in now. But when you make a a record about something like that, there has to be a certain amount of respect paid for to the ancestors. So there won't be any y, any N word or the middle words. Um. And as a matter of fact, going forward in my music, UM,

we're not gonna have none of that neither. I think that it's not it's not that I'm going to criticize other people who still use it. I think that in terms of me making this record and studying that that that's suffering and that pain and the way it was actually broken down and systematically done and build up the blueprint of something that was done to other people as well. I just feel like it's just an evolution and who I am, and that's why we're not doing that word.

So where can um people find all things and Wortal Technique. Oh, you can go to Viper Records dot com. You can find me on the internet at uh tech, Immortal and i G and base Book and then Mortal Tech on Twitter. Yeah. Hey, thank you, thank you for coming on and talking to us. Yeah. Well, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much to you Mac m ran for having me on the show. Um, and I hope that somebody got something from it out there. Oh,

I'm sure they will. A Mortal Technique ladies and gentlemen. Hey, please, man, I can't do another two presidential terms for that album. We come on, let's get it once again. Thank you for coming on, man, thank you so much for having me in there. You have it, ladies and gentlemen. That was the one and only Immortal Technique. We're gonna give a big shout out to him for stopping buying having a little chat with us. What we got coming up

next week? Man, So UH I recently had the opportunity to speak with Eugene per Year, who is a founily member of the Party of Socialism in Liberation and ran as their vice presidential candidate UH in two thousand eight and two thousand sixteen and it's also a journalist with Breakthrough News UM and he traveled down to Haiti with the Breakthrough News team uh I think maybe a month and a month or so ago to cover the uprising

that's happened down there UM recently. It's kind of a simmering unrest that kind of broke into a boil and overflowed in the streets regarding um the president uh Moy's and his refusal to leave office, and you know, corruption and authoritarianism on the rise down in Haiti. So we're gonna talk to Eugene a little bit about his experiences down there and as well to some more of the socio political context in which the uprising has taken place

and listen to some dope patient hip hop of course. Yeah, And as for this one, we're done until next week. But you know we can't go out just in silence. Joe my man, can you drop a beat for the people? Oh uh huh uh huh yeah so so so get it. Yeah yeo yo, I got an old history. There's no flinching me. So simply smoked rappers like Rotiss Andy More infamys, your souldiers gonna live with me, folk Liss Andy, explode

your whole limousine. If I ruled the world and everything in it, I turn every hospital to a free clinic. We eat spinach, free fellas with a steep sentence, but it didn't really you'll sweeten what you think this is. Look, wait before the nafter disasters are get involved. They're gonna come with ratchets and flatten the city hall, crooking politicians with cashing their pity. Pause. You know what, give a

funk up our fashions. We kill the ball. I tell them give me the d like I'm fashioned by Biggie Smalls. Passengers that are shoot in the back of your pretty car. Take him up from the bursts and slumps of the city's all. Put them out in the curve and tell them to get a jaw. These niggas Hollywood trying to get a star. I put my hands in the ash. Light me up in the car. Now, my MoMA and my girls. Trying to get a charge with the cops is all dirty. Nobody respects sage. Hope that you listen.

No one forgiving my showing in prison. I hope the decision leads to more of them throwing in the system. Feel like a WindMan in your stofmach You know that it isn't real bad boy like a nigger. Just roll with the pistons. Should that be gentle with myself because the show been. Shouldn't find a megaphone is shouting to the snow class. Should have simply vote every four year. Should have become a lawyer like the system from inside the roo is it's so totally broken that we've gotta

stud up. But what the whole thing? Should I present myself to Twitter? Hell, hopeuls it's gonna lend. All I really know is we might have napped that apple still if we have wrapped with Holy Points in North Jades. Hey, this is dope knife, I'm little Franca. We are waiting on reparations. See you next week. Listen to Waiting on Reparations on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts