How to be White

celebrating is um posting. So the full archives of the Black Panther newspaper are available online, and so I've been posting just pages of it, you know, with the ones with like cool visuals as well as like descriptions of what they contain. So today, you know, I've posted the

Black Panther ten point Program. A couple of days ago, i posted about UM Huey Newton UM, one of the founders of the Black Panthers, And so I'm just trying to my best to like elevate the parts of black history that people don't want to talk about because it does not serve their political agenda, um and things like that. So, so, yeah, what about you. What I have been celebrated. I mean, this is kind of like some down the line sort of celebration. But one of the things I'm trying to organize.

I'm trying to put together a little festival in Savannah, like a music festival, but have it be like a fundraiser for Stacy Abrams. What's up? Yeah, either either Stacy Abrams or something to do with Georgia voting. One of the two things. I'm just gonna focus around. I know, I know. That's like I'm planning it to be around like four you know, planning it now. So it's technically

my Black History mont celebration. You know, who's not celebrating Black history a lot of it's not only been disinvited from the cook out, like he's not even allowed to

eat barbecue. Wait, it was Joe Rogan ever really invited to the cookout this whole that Yeah, when everything was going down, it was one of those rare occasions where I was on Twitter like to start my day and just was kind of vegging out on Twitter for most of the most of the night before in the day, so like I kind of saw all this ship happening in real time and like for real, like first it was the Okay, So for anybody who doesn't know, so Joe Rogan, one of the biggest podcasters in the world.

He hosts a show called The Joe Rogan Experience. Back in it was it was an independent podcast for years, crazy millions of listeners and and subscribers, all that whole thing you got At this point, I'm just assuming that everybody knows who Joe Rogan and what his podcast is. Right. So a couple of years ago he gets a deal with Spotify for a hundred million dollars, which now makes

him a mainstream corporate entity. I don't give a funk what anybody says, but um, you know, Joe Rogan's had He's had problematic instances in things on his show for a while, but it's all kind of taken ahead and come into public eye with his COVID disinformation that he spreads on his show, and that led to this whole standoff with Spotify or Spotify standing by their hundred million

dollar investment. But you've got artists like Neil Young and Jody Mitchell and others who were taking their music off the platform and effort to not be associated with the

COVID misinformation. But uh SCAD graduate Savannah College of Art and Design graduate and Grammy Award winning artists India Iri Sook to her Instagram to kind of point out something that I in particular had been pointing out about Joe Rogan just amongst my friends and stuff like that in personal conversation for years now, which is a lot of the racist quasi Nazi ship that goes on on the

Joe Rogan podcast. It's dispersed enough that you know, you could watch ten episodes in a row and not encounter it. But when it's there, it's there, and it's they're pretty strong and indie. A re started off by running a montage Joe Rogan using the N word that was followed up by a joke that he told about going to a black neighborhood in Philly to see the movie Planet of the Apes and a commentary about how the all black crowd was like the Planet of the Apes, and

so on and so forth. Joe Rogan issued an apology um for all of the cries of cancel culture, there's not really any cancelation going on Spotify standing by him saying that silencing is not the way to handle it. Um. But for the most part, it's it's just illuminated this particular aspect of the Joe Rogan Show for the general public for normans who weren't really paying attention, whether they are supporters of his or detractors. So, um, that is

the situation as it stands. Like I said, there's not really any consequence to be taken out of it except for his apology and that, you know, the opinions are now you know, it seems like the opinions are now solidly formed. You know, you've either got the people who are like, oh, I don't think that's a big deal, or you've got the people who are like, hey, this is what I've been saying. Joe Rogan has been on

this ship for a long time. And then you've got a bunch of regular people who are now either oh, I didn't know Joe Rogan was like that funk that guy, or you know, the opposite swing of that pendulum. I didn't know Joe Rogan was like that. Awesome, I'm with it. So, so, what have you been thinking of this whole thing, whatever,

however much of it you've been consuming. Yeah, I mean I've long been skeptical of Joe Rogan and like the Joe Rogan too like crypto fascist pipeline um sort of veiled in the fact that he does have many different kinds of people on his show, his platforming of folks like Stephen Wilno, like um, even Elon Muskle's just like Notisanapolis and only know of him because of It's interesting to me that this hadn't come come out earlier, Like, you know, if people are watching his podcast religiously and

he has this, you know, a million strong fan base, how did no one bring up before now that there were a hundred and eleven podcast where he used a racial slurn, which I then think, yeah, okay, um, yeah, no, that's all I said right now. Well, I mean, um, okay. So one of the biggest reason why I think it's not even necessary that people didn't notice, but he wasn't like mainstream then as big and popular as his podcast was.

I think having that Spotify corporate stamp, Fortune five hundred stamp on it, it now makes all of that stuff, you know, um issue for him because beforehand, I mean, for example, the the video of him telling the Planet of the Apes joke. I saw that shipped back in surprisingly, do you know who put that out? Alex Jones was the one who first put that out. Him and Joe Rogan. We're beefing. Alex Jones was like, all right, well, if me and Joe Rogan is not gonna have the other show.

Everybody thinks he's so cool, he's got a black daughter, and listen to what he says about black people. And then that happened in the summer of nineteen, you know, and that's something like you see it and you you know, a it was getting posted around, but it doesn't really matter because ultimately it's just this dude's podcast in his basement or in a spare room in his house that

he's doing on his own. So there is no when you don't have like when there's no corporate entity to pressure you know about it, then I don't know, I think it can easily slip through the right you got. You gotta go after the money. You can't just criticize Joe Rogan for what he does. Anybody in the basement can do what he does. You like he has. He has the prominence that he does because he has the backing of Spotify. It's the backing of huge corporations, right,

and so you gotta go after the money. That makes you think of like with the stop Pop City Um struggle down here in Atlanta. Uh, like when they weren't getting anywhere at Atlanta City Council, they started going for the people that were funding the Atlanta Police Foundation, so um, Coca cola, um, other organizations. Or even if you want to think about the voter suppression bill that passed in

the state legislature. Here, I guess sometime last year, folks are going after Delta and all of these other corporations that were like, oh, black Lives Matter or whatever, and then you know, bankrolling Republican campaigns to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. And so another thing that rises it raises for me is like how unfortunate it is but necessary to like bring their receipts. Like everyone

knew he was shitty for a long time. It took like a comprehensive compilation of all the reasons why and like here are the links for people to be like, you have a pretty strong case. I see that over and over again with like anecdotal evidence versus pulling like the actual receipts in a lot of organizing spaces where it's like people are telling you something's wrong, but until you find like the archival data where like the segregationist

senator was conspiring to destroy their neighborhood. Like that's when you finally like, all right, I guess I'll do something about it. So that also strikes me as really funny about the circumstances that, right, well, um, you know, we'll have to expand on this because it's it's uh, it's opened up, you know, further conversation about um censorship and what is censorship versus what isn't? Should Joe Rogan be silence? Should he be removed from the platform, And I definitely

do want to dive into this stuff. We were also we're supposed to talk about the NFL coaching situation, but I think we'll save that for another day too. But I mean, you know, before we go into what we're talking about for the day, I do just want to touch on that one subject. It's just if the only thing that existed in this situation was the compilation of the N word, I don't think it would be that

big of a deal. And just me personally well to the problem, I mean, because here's the thing, right, is like he gave an explanation for the N word compilation in terms of like, oh, well, this was me using it as a quote, and I was using I was recalling it in the story. Now for me personally, it's

really not that complicated. There's twenty three n words in there, and he gave like three examples of him, you know, quoting it that it's like, all right, I'm gonna need to see like a detailed breakdown of like how each of these was a quote. But besides the point, if just for the benefit of doubt, all of those where he's quoting a story, he's telling a story or something like that. I mean, it makes me still not like Joe Rogan, but it makes me ultimately not really like

you know what I'm saying. It's like, oh yeah, I

wasn't listening to that show anyway, you know what I'm saying. Well, but I think the aspects of like the jokes, and then when you further do even deeper digging and you look into the type of people that he's platformed, that is that's the aspect and the element of it to me, that is like all right, now this is still you know, sensor removed, that's still like a subject for discussion, But that is the aspect of Joe Rogan that is like, oh, no, this is serious now because like you know, you can,

you can say whatever should you want. I don't care. It doesn't have to affect me. I don't have to listen to it. But if you're like luring people unsuspecting people in by like, hey, we're interviewing m M a guy, a comedian, a nuclear physicist, a white supremacist, you know what I mean, And you're doing that cycle over and over again. And I mean I've I've have people personally in my life who otherwise are like normal, well adjusted left leaning people that have fallen down the Joe Rogan

crypto fashionst pipeline. It's very easy, it's not difficult at all. Well, I think it speaks to the fact that the left has to get better at its media game. Um, like you know, we need to we have to win the conversation. We can't just say oh, um, like you, I guess to a degree, like you shouldn't have these people on, like I like, I don't think he should, but I

think i'd rather than like sensor him. I think we just need to do a better job of convincing people and creating our own pipeline to like liberatory ideas because otherwise if this is all we have, and it's like all you have is Joe Rogan as like a huge name in podcasting, like that's partially our failure. That's true, that's true, but it's not even you know, just personally,

I don't know what anybody else thinks. For me, it's not even the platforming like people that I check out, like Vosh who's a YouTuber, YouTube, twitch, political streamer, or um even what is Homie's name? Who got fired from CNN's Quomo Andrew Quomo, one of the quotma no no, no no um black dude, he was a commentation Mark Lamont Hill. Mark Lamont Hill on his channel, he's always talking to right wingers in like these fringe like you know, quasi alt right figures who are spewing their ship. The

difference is how you go about it. If Mark Lamont Hill sits across from somebody and the person says, he, you know, black people have an intrinsic violent gene that makes them more violent than the other races. That's interesting. Oh dude, really, dude, bros, that word dude like that, you know that's not gonna be Vosh is going to like push back like there's ways that you can do it where it becomes a straw man to be like, oh, you want a silence, you don't want people to be platformed.

You're afraid of discussion, you're afraid of debate, and it's like how you engage with them? Yeah, if you're engaging critically, actually have to engage like like like for people to want for the Joe Rogan stands out there, a lot of whom are straight up Nazis and a lot of whom are just like people who don't give a funk

about issues like this and stuff like that. But if they if they don't want people to jump to the conclusion of yo, I heard Joe Rogan said this, so I think this about him and everything that he is, then you know it probably would have behooved Joe Rogan over these years if like he could counter with clips of him passionately going back at like some of these guests that he has has on his show, because he shouldn't be interacting with my Unapolis the same way as

he does with Cornel West if I'm supposed to think that he's cool, yeah, or even just yeah, this like engaging critically with both of them like instead of just being huh, that's interesting, Oh black people skulls are like con cave and commend whatever. Commended. But that's not racist. I have supported Bernie, supported by you know, yeah you said you might vote for him once whatever the other thing you want to bring up about Joe Rogan, And

like I like to be hyperbolic sometimes because it's more entertaining. Um, Like there's a level of like almost stochastic terrorism that

comes with uh, COVID misinformation. Um. And so like just a couple of days ago January, a big fan of his and friend who was you know, talking about his show all the time on his Instagram, UM, comedian Christian Cabrera UM died of COVID, you know, and often talked in conjunction with you know, loving Joe Rogan about like vaccine hesitancy and um it's also you know, spread a

lot of Joe Rogan's vaccine and misinformation. And now this person is dead and so like he's a famous person, you know, he's a comedian, but how many other people who watched his show also We're like maybe that is sketchy and like are dead now we don't know, we don't have those numbers, whether you want to call that murder or whatever, whatever. I don't think that it's even debatable that that has happened. No, it's not even debatable. It's just like there's there's no way to know the

impact negatively in a very literal, concrete way. But um, we have a great on about Joe Rogan for a while, So why don't we talk about like white people that don't suck? So Yeah, this week we had the honor to interview Joan and Loki Moholland Um. Joan Um was a freedom writer, UM whose mug shot was called one

of the most iconic and American history. UM. She Um, at the age of twenty three, had participated in over fifty sent ins and demonstrations like the Freedom Rights the Jackson Woolwrith set in the marchin Washington, and Um, you know, knew some of the biggest names in the civil rights movement, from Mega Evans, Mega Evans, Fanny lew Haymer, John Lewis, Julian Bond. And so we'll be speaking with her as well as her son, who has recently made a documentary

about her called an Ordinary Hero. Yeah, and he's the executive director of the Joan Moholland Foundation. Um has actually directed um Sello documentaries and Um wrote a book She Stood for Freedom, Um, which was nominated for a war. So they're both very involved into this day in civil

rights struggle in their own different ways. And the somewhat details what we're talking about with regards to art and the role of you know, shaping the political discourse in the sense that, like Joe Rogans over here, it's kind as podcast, which itself is a form of media that is shaping the political discourse, and Um Loki, especially as a filmmaker, is doing the same with his work. And we have a lot of discussion in the interview about

the role of arts in movement making. So without further ado, let's get on into it. We'll be right back with that after the jump. So today I am super honored to be joined by Joan and Loki Muholland. I will let them introduce themselves in their own words, because the breadth of experience they bring with them is kind of impressive. It's sort of like, yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot going on there, but yeah, whoever, like to start tell us a little bit about yourselves and what y'all do.

Go on, boy, I was gonna say ladies first, but well, my name is Loki maholl Um, I'm Jones's son. Um, I'm a filmmaker, activins author, and uh yeah, we see you represent over there. Yeah, Joan Mahaland I'm Loki's mama. And Loki was after the Norse god of mischief or sidekick, and he's lived up to it. Um, I'm a Delta. I got into a lot of good trouble back in the day, and you know, freedom writer and all that

sort of stuff. Good, Yeah you are. You knew a lot of folks that people may recognize when you know we're studying the history of the civil rights movement. Um, Mr Evers, Danniel Hammer play people like that. It's Fannie Hammer Hamer. Oh my god. If I've been saying that around my whole life. See, this is what we need better civics and lack history education in schools. Because I'm growing up, I've taught myself most well. I feel like most of what I know as an adult, like you know,

reading online, reading books, etcetera. Because they don't really teach you what you need to know in school. Unfortunately, word was, you know, the slaves were happy and the slave masters

were kind. Yeah. I actually have a friend who is a professor at um University in Hartford who studies how even back to like slavery texts from like ancient Greece, the way that like the happy slave narrative was even a thing then, and like how that then, you know, factors into the way people sometimes use classics, like in white supremacist movements to say like, oh, the purity of the Western tradition. But yeah, like unless you unless you really teach yourself, um, you can, yeah, get stuck with

some of these. Oh that's interesting back to the ancient Greeks because when we had standardized testing, I think it's pretty much out now in Virginia. But one of the questions for the kids his foot, what did we get from the Greeks? And you were supposed to say, you know, democracy, voting rights, stuff like that. I said, no, no no, no, that's that's all. We got voting rights for free property

owning white men. Precisely, we got some highways. Yeah, maybe some like column shapes, you know, like some art, but yeah, we're still trying to get voting rise today. And what I'm saying, so, um, well, I'm really really excited to have you all here today. Particularly I'm super interested in the way that movement work manifests in the various different kinds of things you do. And also we've got two

generations of people here. Um, we're doing the good work. UM. And I think that like the idea of intergenerational like liberation movement struggle is not when we talk about enough like they got the young kids out here, like the Sunrise Movement or etcetera. And then we study you know, civil rights history um as if it you know, would happened long ago, and like we don't need to be

marching um anymore things like that. So, um, how do you see your work from two different generations overlapping or diverging at certain points? Well, I say my generation got rid of the segregation laws underlying racism. It's still there and that's what folks need to work on. Now. Um. We marched, we sat in, we went to jail, um, you know things like that. We could sing real good, except for me, I couldn't carry a tune in a bucket.

That the Jackson, Mississippi. The joke we had a little joke in the movement that if the police were marching on us, they just pushed Joan to the front and she would sing loudly right in their face and they would back off because I say, Okay, what is that? Yeah, yeah, backup, But you're a singer two on top of everything logy yeah, yeah, yeah, play guitar on Hey. Well, maybe we'll come back to the question about like generational differences, because we're kind of

starting to talk about art. And that's something that I don't understand. I don't know a lot about from my studying of like civil rights and like other liberation movements, is like what the role of art was during that era? Looky, you know, brilliant filmmaker and as I as a hip hop artist, see the potential for use of that um too spread stories that bring people into the movement and educate people, etcetera. UM. But Joan, like, what what role did like music and film and art and stuff like

that play in in your time? Well, film want a big deal, except you know, watching the evening news on TV and UM singing. That was the backbone of the movement.

That is what gave us strength and courage to keep on keeping on mhm um it was you know, songs that were sort of adapted from the church songs and it's it's it sounded if you weren't listening to the words like you were in church when we had these Yankees coming down and you know, they were good people, but they sang like they were on a picket line, a Union picket line, yeah, which they didn't have a sing. Art. Well, you needed art for posters and picket signs and things

like that. So that was sort of where it was at. And so, um, Loki today working in film and you know, a variety of media. Honestly, Um, what do you see as the role of art in movement making today? Well, I mean, and I want to kind of um like what my mom says, but roll back a little bit further, because obviously art was used even um during the time of slavery. Yeah, absolutely used to give direction and how to get north. Artistry that went into quilts. Um, the

literature was a key component. And oh gosh, and the abolitionist movement. Yeah, yeah, you know, so those those sort of things, and it continued. I mean obviously during my mom's time, I mean, film was used as well. Um, the a lot of times that was you the documentary. It's not like it is today when we have so

much more access to that. It was more underground. Um. But that was that burgeoning movement of art to really kind of push forward these ideals, um, and these and these alternative narratives to the prescribed history that was taught in our textbooks and as what we're seeing today as well, UM, and continuously obviously, UM, you know during the eighties and nineties in particular, you know, with public Enemy in w

A and so forth. I mean all of that. Um, those scenes were just these narratives that people hadn't heard before. You know, when I say people, I mean America. So they control the media pretty much. Um, the photographers, with the press, they were powerful. I say, you take it to the lunch counter, the lawyers take it to the court, but the press takes it to the world. And when things will start flying, the press was in every bit as much danger as the demonstrators, and sometimes they were

the first ones attacked. So the picture of the Jacks and Woolworths sit in which I'm sure you've seen what I'm having sugar dumped on my head, as I like to say, like I wasn't sweet enough already, but that went worldwide. It was colorized. Color was added to the black and white. They didn't have color photography and the presdent. But in the Paris Match front page above the centerfold, the most powerful place in the newspaper. And this was the most powerful newspaper in Europe. It was like the

New York Times. So that you know. Went and when I was in South Africa, um a few years ago, thinking of the music um down in Cape Town, a bunch of US ladies went to um A school for a morning of volunteer work and I ended up since I used to work in the schools up here. Um well, I was up from Georgia. You know, it's still down south and Arlington Commany Lee's hometown. But um we told the students what we had, what we did back in

the States. We had Q and A, and then we had our closing statement, and I said, back in the days of our civil rights movement, we had a song we shall overcome. Now. My intention was to say, whatever difficulty you're facing in life, tell yourself those three words and things will get better. No, I got cut right off by the school teacher. This is a room packed with fourth graders and he said, oh, we sang that song in our partid demonstrations class. Let's all sing it together.

So there I was, over fifty years since our civil rights you know, the student civil rights movement, singing we Shall Overcome in Cape Town, South Africa, in the room packed with fourth or fifth graders, and it just about brought me to tears. So it traveled. Yeah. I think about that. I think about as I said previously, about the public enemy and w A I mean Spike Lee Yea works and these messages that were putting forth that uh, why America hadn't heard and didn't really to understand or

want to understand. And if you go back and and I mean it was almost it's like a canary in the mind sort of thing. I was like, wow, I mean all of that has come to pass. And then some yeah, aldy today you know what's uh, you know the the my mom was talking about the press and the cameras and stuff. Obviously the quickest way to censor

that was his bash a camera. I'm about the film which they did, which they did, and today we have you know, those those other techniques now of of of blocking channels and or streams on social media and so forth saying you know this this content is offensive or whatever else and being these filters now. Um, so they did that with the Evening News and get h Yeah, that's right. Difficulties Uh yeah, like ever speech. Um, I just think about like, you know, these these new opportunities

that exist like TikTok and so forth. That's that is a very quick way to get the message across and how people are learning. Yeah, no, I mean there's still space for longer formats and so forth, and obviously the tools that are there to share those messages. Probably part of the pitfall of that is so much disinformation that gets out there, um, the lack of research, the lack of study, the lack of understanding and context and so forth.

So there's and then obviously the immediate feedback that you get from people who and the bombing, you know, the trolling and so forth that takes place media to just kind of discredit and take people down rabbit holes away from the core message. Someone I did a post this the other day about a mere luck I took nine seconds, and someone said, well, it's actually a six second because there was a wait for three of them, like Okay, okay, right exactly, yeah, yeah, the way people parts details to

de legitimize, like very real thing. Oh, we used humor also in the movement. If your mama ever told you not to drink coffee because it would turn you black, you know, back and back in the days before black was beautiful, I am living proof that it ain't. So mama probably just wanted all that coffee for her so self. Yeah, she could have probably used some of that sugar they dumped on you though, So you know, sweeten up a little bit. But I think you started to get into

my next question. Looky, it's about um. I mean, we've spoken really to two parts of it. I'm really interested in the way you sort of describe the long history of the arts in various movements, highlighting the way that even the abolitionist movement for the abolition of slavery, you know,

literature and songs were so critical. Um. And so I'm curious, you know, sticking to this theme of intergenerational struggle, UM, what parts do you see yourself carrying forward from previous movements having been very um, I guess in meshed in its history growing up with Joan and what sorts of new things. I mean, you mentioned TikTok already, but what are some of the differences that you try to lean into in your modern day work. Um, there's so much differences.

For me, it's, um, you know, I've I've been asked repeatedly what I have set the lunch counter, And I'm like, yeah, I don't know if I would have, but I don't have to because my mother already did this kind of Yeah, those different there's like things like that, yeah, yeah, yeah, And and it really it's we all have a role to play. Not everyone could set the lunch counters. Not

everyone this position. Uh, there was threats for on families, you know, they could lose their tuition all these different jobs, or houses be bombed and whatever else. Um. And and some people you know this, they just weren't at that place at that time, you know. And and so they found other ways to contribute. Um. So I use the gifts that I've been given to you move that work forward, move that message forward, and to highlight the history. At

the end of the day. Um, whether we're gonna go back to abolitionists or civil rights movement or any sort of movement, it really comes down to that one on one opportunity of seeing those individuals, seeing those people sitting at the lunch counter, that you have to actually confront it. It's right there in front of you that you just can't replicate in a film or or you know, the

photograph or anything yeah yeah, or rap song. It just becomes those The art becomes a way to motivate people, um, you know, to inspire, to inform, But really it's to do all that to get you down to those lunch counters, on the buses or in the streets. Carrying the signs and putting forth that message to move things forward and designing a petition online is not you know, really bringing about a big change. It's just making you feel good.

Mm hmm. Yeah. I had post a TikTok earlier about getting off Twitter and like getting in the streets, whether that's knocking on your neighbor's doors or marching or go into city hall, whatever you gotta do. Um, but yeah, I like the idea of everyone having their role to play. That kind of makes me rethink my question and a lot of the things we need to do are the same, and that like certain people put their bodies online, certain

people's are documenting it. It's really about folks finding the intersection of their passion and what the gifts they're given with the tools that are available at the time. So now we do have TikTok and Instagram to like make sure those images of protests are circulated. Um, so it's the same kind of project, just new tools. Yeah, and and and and you know, I mean we're in a capital society. Money makes the world turn. I mean you had people, um, beyond the Harry Belafontes of the world.

You had actually white women whose husbands were probably either in the clan or in the White Citizens Council and Jackson who were giving money to the Mays, to the help Right to give back to Medgarrever's office. They knew they couldn't give it directly, so they would sneak it in. And this is this is known. There was a gentleman's great story. He um, his gift was robbing jewelry stores. Hey, whatever,

that's what you got. He would time out the train and how long it would take the police to get to the jewelry store, rob the store, hopped the train, go the next town, sell the goods to rent some repeat, and that money went back to the act. Now they had no idea where it was coming from. They did, they might be like, yeah, that's amazing, but yeah, I mean, hey, you use the gifts you've been given the stores and selling the goods for money. But obviously, yeah, I could

use being white to the advantage of the movement. Could um blend into the crowd and be an observer of what was happening. I could At Glen Echo Amusement Park just over in Maryland, I could go in and buy tickets. And I heard it buy me to have a ticket for each ride you got on, ticket in hand, and I could go back out and hand him out from the Howard students who popped on the Merry Go Round ticket in hand and got arrested. What were the passes that you gave me when I was a two blue student.

I went up to the state legislature and got a handful of passes to you know, sit in the galleries and watch the legislature debate things. Went back, gave those to Mega and he handed him out to the most prominent black ministers he could find, and they got arrested. Gallery pass in hand, m hm. And by the next day the law had changed you had to personally get your pass from your representatives, but there would a number of times just being white could be used to the

advantage of the movement. So you got to use what you got. Yeah. Yeah, And I think people are still waking up to that today of thinking about how I mean broadly people say use your privilege, etcetera. But the specific ways for us, like, yeah, use use your whiteness to like get in those spaces where others can um and things like that I'm doing. I had one question for you, So we talked a little bit about what

Loki takes from movements before. But I was wondering if there's anything that young movement makers are doing today that you find interesting or inspiring. Well, I find the complete diversity of the crowds and the marches, to say nothing of the size of the crowds and the marches. But I think you've got a much you know, like a no majority massive demonstration. Um, we didn't have that. We had just a handful of Wie or Hispanic or Asian folks in our activities and marches. Um, well, we didn't

have so many marches because you all get arrested. Um before we got down the block before and the police are even joining the marchers and protesters with them, mailing to pray with them, if just for those my mind. Um, that makes me think as well about talking about like then and now that and now so at the time, from my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, Jones, it seemed like a lot of folks that took part

in the civil rights movement were somewhat demonized. I saw recently a comic from I think the Birmingham News where they were painting MLK as UM starting riots even though non violence was the core of the movement. And then yet today the same people that are disrupting modern movements sending the National Garden when folks are marching and tear gassing folks are heralding um civil rights movement leaders at

the same time. And so I was wondering what you both make of trends like that where you see a sort of contradiction in the way folks um treat both

historic and modern civil rights movements. Yeah, well, I mean immediately comes to mind as someone like Ted Cruise, who in one breath will praise quote doctor King and his convenie and then say that appointing a you know, even the idea of appointing a black woman is an affront to an insult to black women, and uh, you know, and inequality, which it was just absurd to begin with,

like he cares um. But yeah, you know Dr King when he when he was killed, study percent of white America you know, didn't like him, if you holes and stuff. But now you know, it's it's weaponizing Dr King to push forward. Uh you know these agendas of like you know, anti CRT, which of course not taught taught in school is not even a Yeah, it's a whole thing to roll back, you know, the narrative that they feel uncomfortable with. Um because then and and quite frankly don't even understand. Yeah,

it's it's it's a fascinating thing. Um do you do you even contemplate? But uh, that's that's where it's so vital for the rest of us to be informed. And and I when I have people who quote Dr King like that, like, hey, yes, that's wonderful. What about the rest of his speech? Yeah, do you know any words after the first seven Well do you know the words that you said before that? Oh? Yeah, yeah, everything before that was about reparations I mean, let's talk about that

for a moment. It's talking about that. Let's talk about you know, a federal job guarantee. Let's talk about the evils of capitalism and militarism. Nobody wants to get into that. But John, from your perspective, having lived through that and seeing the way that people treat it today, what is that like for you? Um? Aside from comical, Um, they want to idealize of what we did and we were not perfectly made mistakes. Um, there are things we could

have done better. Um, all that, But um, they want to use us as you know that we did it all and they don't need to do anything, and they need to look deeper. I mean, like I said, we took care of the laws for segregation, but there is so much more the racism behind, and then the forms that the racism takes. Um. Housing, Yeah, whose neighborhood does the interstate care up? Where does the school money go? It's not you know that some schools get hand me

downs anymore like it used to be. But certainly, um, they say, you know, I'm in Arlington, and they say South Arlington gets the least and North Arlington gets the most because the rich folks lived there in the power base. But um, it doesn't need to be that way. Discrimination against people because of their first language, um, their ethnic origins,

their religion, all that stuff. I was impressed a few years ago when the anti Muslim thing got going that college kids, girls and some places, we're walking around with their classmates wearing his jobs, just like the classmates were. But there are lots of ways to show solidarity. There's lots more forms of discrimination that we now recognize. And part of that comes to mind as well, is how we you know, so part of it is like Dr King was a comedy, right, all that sort of stuff.

It's like the Washington football team will now be hailed to their and I didn't think about that. I love that it's funny, but um, you know, so so those sames, those same terms are thrown around. They don't even know what they mean. But um, I think what's really fascinating is there's part of this element of the civil rights movements kind of safe to talk about. Well you don't talk about why it happened, of course, but there's this,

you know, the sort of glorification if you will. You know, there's the freedom writers and the sit ins and all this, you know, John Lewis and the other impettish Ridge and Dr King. I had a dream all that sort of stuff because it means hey problem solved. And I actually did a TikTok video on this recently, just talking about you know what scares um white America about teaching history is that it's there. It's it's their own history. Because my age, when I was in elementary school, Dr King

had only been killed, you know, sixteen years earlier. So World War Two had only ended about forty years earlier. So um, if you if you take today and roll back that same time period forty years ago, forty years ago, Uh, the Philadelphia Police Department was bombing their own city and people know about that stuff. Off in your math. World War Two ended, and you were in elementary school and the late mentally seventies, right, I wasn't how much schooling

to eighties? Mom? I was ten years old, nineteen eight. Okay, Well that's store up forty years okay, mother. Nonetheless, world War two was raging forty years earlier. Yeah, that's let's safe. The message your worst subject and you're trying to school me on a mother, But if you go back one years ago, Rodney King was beaten. Four years ago, you know, James Bird was was lynched Jasper, Texas, right dragged behind a pickup truck, chained by his feet till his body

fell apart. Ten years ago, is Trayvon. Yeah, these were the things that that's the type same type of stuff they would have been teaching us back then. If they were even going to teach that. They weren't going to teach it. But so if you take a look at that time frame, that's what really scares him because they

were alive during that. They understand that, and they it's like, wow, that happened on our watch and did yeah, And and the history of racism is so it's taught as black history when it's really white history, and that it's a lot of white people as well, folks like Joan that were out there marching with people. It was like a shared struggle for some folks, but is just straight out in our US history, it's a sewers history. Yeah, I was very I was very interested in something you said, Joan,

about how you all made mistakes. There's things that you would have done differently, and that's certainly not a piece of history that they teach people in the in the way that they idealize the struggle at the time we levon Brown. Mom talks about that my jog memory a

little bit. But um, when there was that schism in Snick, the Snake leadership between John, Yeah, I think I think the thing that I I kind of focus on at times about the civil rights movement is we kind of forget you know, we we we focus on these key singular moments, the Greensboro sit in and the freedom rise into setness. Um, but you know, and assume that one thing took care of everything, and that you know, we can condense these things down to just a couple of

days here and there and hoof everything. Saw. I mean, Greensboro did not fix Jackson. Greensboro fixed Greensboro Jackson Jackson right right. We all need to work within the space where we live, as my mom would say. And that's the hippies say, you know, bloom where you're planted right right. Um, we tell kids, don't try to change the world, change your world, whatever that might be. And what for my mom it was the South right want I didn't care about them. Let them fix their own stuff. They got

their own different problems that they'll tackle. Well, you know, Malcolm X was working on that, right, so right, yeah, yeah, but yeah, I really appreciate you raising that because I think I speak to like middle schools, high schools all the time, and I've been thinking a lot about how this, like civil rights history is kind of painted for a lot of kids like something that happened somewhere else as part of the way where they're trying to discourage people

from like carrying those struggles forward. It's like, oh, they were marching, Yeah, they're marching on Washington, They're marching down in Mississippi. Was like, no, they were marching in Athens, Georgia, Like we had our own movement here. Yeah, they don't want you to know about because at the university, Wait, you when integrating. Yeah, yes, I do recall that they

don't teach you about that. That inspired me to, um go to two Galoup that watching that so close to where my family was from Nicholson, that if integration was real, I was thinking, it's got to be a two way street. Maybe I should applied to a colored school, not being put like term then and um I talked it over with my friends. You know, the leadership of Snick and they thought it was a good idea. And somebody said, well, if you're gonna do what you may as well go

to Mississippi. Those students haven't done anything yet, meaning demonstrations, maybe you can help them. And so I applied, and two of the lutives. It was the only nationally accredited school that colored students could go to. Sorry about that phone, I don't know how to remut it. It's all that I got a baby yodel in the background, we got phones, It's all. It's an orchestract. And I was accepted in two Glue, even though my high school up here refused,

very pointedly, without spelling it out, to send my transcripts. Um. But they still accepted me and said, oh well we'll take you on your Duke University transcripts and go on there for one year, reported company when I wanted to go back to school, and it was right after the riots. And that is such an interesting idea that I don't think people and brave enough that like integration does have to be a two way stream. Um, it's not just about like advancing, you know, getting people of color and

positions of power and into these white spaces. It's also like I got this one friend that's like, why dude who like shows up at like all of these like all black events, cetera. Does it just happened to be in black communities. But he's out there doing the work of meeting people, of helping people, of talking to folks. Um. But so many people are scared to do that because

there is helping green racism. Like even if you try to be an anti racism, it's like, well if I show up, like people will laugh at me or I won't, you know, I don't want to understand, etcetera. But that's a really important thing for us to remember as well. And there are lots of different ways to make a difference. I mean I was sitting in and all that. Then I had a family and that really I had to take care of the kids. But at their elementary school

I made a difference. Um, I particularly one of and a number of different ways. But the music teacher who lived a couple of blocks so I may wanted to a good song to teach for I think it was, you know, Black History Month, and I said, we'll lift every voice and sing. He had not a blue but she looked it up. She wanted to teach it to something, to teach to the chorus to sing it and um

our big international dinner. She ended up teaching that song to every kid in the school and they sang it at the international dinner with the chorus standing on the stage. But every kid, you know, singing on probably the first I'm you know, not a nine point nine for St. Suard's the first formerly all white school in the county, if not the state, for all the kids to learn

lift every voice and sing. But there were a number of other things too, But the biggest deal in my book, it's not just like study again, like the big event studying, you know what happened in Greensburg's also just knowing about cultural artifacts from our communities, like taking the time to learn a very important song test and things like that. Yeah, I took care. They had all these white doll baby and olders sounds kindergarten class, and it was the girl's

corner and the boys corner. Well, I took care of the doll babies by making a bunch of cloth dolls out of different skin tone. Perhaps I had an interchangeable clothes and those white plastic doll babies disappeared, and then I said, well, now, my son, he's going to be upset by you pauling that the girl's corner because he likes he wanted an ironing board, small ironing board for Christmas, and he's not gonna be happy about you saying that's

a girl thing. Well it quickly changed to the housekeeping corner and the workshop corner. When the school I was working, and I would go in with the second grade classes every year and read books about segregation, Dr King and the American South. I mean, that's why they will play picture books to the second graders and alternate those with um South Africa part time that Nelson Mandela mm hmm. I've had now decades later, adults walk up to me and remind me they remember when I taught them all

that in class. So I think I made a difference in my small ways. Oh absolutely, absolutely, Yeah. I really appreciate you sharing so much history I didn't know about and reframing the history that I knew. But I also love to ask you all about what you're working on these days. So um, let's start with you. Look, what's what are you getting into these days? Oh? Gosh, who am I working? On right now. What are you doing these days? You know, I've discovered TikTok after a while.

I've been working on that, sharing a lot of content there, um, you know, and yeah, more of my mom's stories, kind of stuff you don't hear about from the sol I love it. Yeah, and then trying to interject a few little things that I have as well. Um, you know, I'm just we finished shooting a film, a little short documentary, um, about a gentleman who every day he goes He's ninety two years old and every day he goes the Evan Pettish Bridge to pray for the state trooper that beat

him on bloody Sunday. Um. I'm working on a whole diverse the equity inclusion training modules you know, that will be a whole online platform, but that that incorporates my mom's story and in the various films now that I've done and using those as kind of a training tools as well. Um, you know, working on an Emmett til film. That's been a long process that continues. You know, they just got kind of gag with with the COVID and

so forth. I'm starting to yeah, okay, let's start, let's go back and reevaluate that a little more and than another. Now working on another season of our Uncomfortable Truth podcast, so we're gonna cramped up for that. So yeah, you know the usual, the usual, you know the usual. Well that's a really exciting and what about you and John? What you what I got in the fire these days? Well, I can't march anymore because my knees have given out, but um, I can run my mouth pretty good. I

do a lot of public speaking. The Deltas had me out to Memphis the alumni chapter, and I was talking out there and I just um. I was talking at a Hampton Sydney University and um with Loki along with me on this and showing video clips in Farmville, Virginia, which was crucial to getting the schools integrated in Virginia and even went into Brown versus board. I'm moving to high school and um, I speak in local elementary schools,

you know, colleges and anybody that invites me. And if I got transportation issues, they got to pay for my transportation. Put me up and feed me somewhere, private home, five star hotel either way. Yeah, run in my mouth is my main thing. Now. I love that I'm going to remember that for the rest of my life as long as the brain cell still work. Cut me off and they don't. Yeah, oh man, Well, um, any closing words

of hope for our listeners. Y'all have been at it for a minute, creating beautiful art and sharing beautiful stories to you know, keep this movement alive. But what's one last thing you'd like people to know as they as we part ways? Um, to give them the do something? Get out there? Yeah? I feel that things things do get better. People didn't believe slavery went in, but it did, and I believe Jim Crow was gonna end, but it did. Um. But it ended because you know, like the echo the

words of FAINTI low hammer. Uh, they were stick and tired of being sick and tired. We we we gotta keep pressing forward because the other side's not tired. Um. But yeah, how do people keep in touch with your work? Find your work? Um? You know, continue to learn from you on Obviously you know what I said before. We're all we're on TikTok so Loki Malholland is it is it a page a channel where they I'm really new to TikTok. Also so yeah, I think a page but

I don't know. But it's fire fire content. Please go check it out. Yes, yeah, we know. We're on Instagram and Facebook and stuff foundation with Mama's name on it. Yep, I was good. So if you go to our website www dot the j t M Foundation dot org. Um. I don't know why I put the www at the beginning of that. That shows how one way I am now. Um yeah, I mean so the jt M Foundation dot org um, and that's where we have h we have

scholarship programs there that we're doing. We've got obviously our films. People can contribute. Please go check out the jt M Foundation dot org to learn more. Follow Loki on TikTok and Instagram at Loki Mohammed at Loki Moholland and keep up the fight. You know, they've been out here doing it for a minute, creating beautiful, our cham peutiful stories. But we're gonna make our own new stories, carrying forward the fight. But yeah, thank you, thank you for being here.

Thank you a yo, we are back. That was Joan Maholland and her son Loki. That was quite a robust conversation. You'll have there. Yeah. I tried not to get into like specific like what was it light to meet megger ever, but still kind of like understand more of just like what lessons can be drawn from the work that they have done. And so I hope that's been helpful to everybody listening and thinking about your own role in movements, the work that is still left to be done, etcetera.

I definitely feel like I got a lot of that. No, you definitely did. Definitely did. And you'll make sure that you'll check out that documentary so you can get a more robust picture of her full biography and the things that she did well I do. Oh, you know what, we gotta throw out a congratulate sations Mariah, our homie, the person who you've never heard who spends us the beats. Joel brought a new bundle of joy. Dad's dad is

now Dad's dad times too. Congratulations Joel. He's not going to hear this because he's probably like knee deep and dirty diverse right now. But who's taken over? I think it's Taylor taken over? A Taylor. You know, we know you're new to this, Taylor, but we we gotta wrap to close this out, So can you can you pick through one of those instrumentals of mine and play something? Yeah, wait, no reparation to get in and sitting in their bodies on the line, get in jail the kit and fund

dement that. But right at the time they deep but not the John no surprised. They's saying the times to the best on the right and like they would have set up but really they would have set up a wouldn't cross and burning like some terrorizing the neighbors of what they hoods up. They really shook watching all the people out they mobilized, looking back and them Okay, like I know that guy, they don't even know to have motherfucker's I know you're whack when the revolutions over exploded

like a nova. I just took a ride to Croker and nobody pulled me over. I got the love Song site and ain't nobody sober. You know my name dope night. My mamma called me toga go and smoke up. It's all legal. We all regal all ball. No such things as small people, gun sticks, pots and pans were fought evil. Now we got plots of land for a zero told you not to dreams that it's all in your hand. They told you not to lead to the followers. Stand now, you can get a good job keeping all of your dreads,

and we can party without caring. Go and call the fans. Everybody dapping on one having a fuss. Came a long damn way from the back of the bus, and we let in the white folks that we happen to trust, and everybody else can come, but as black as a fuck. Yeah, waiting a reparation, Oh knife, Frank, we are waiting on reparations. Peace. Listen to Waiting on Reparations on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.