Empire State of the South

six years old? Isn't it pitiful? But because just truly the cruel squiler, if you did it right, could at truth to be something beautiful. I don't have nothing this week, yo yo, I just I just want to spit though, make you feel ship walking in my big black boots. That's the steel tip was a wooden puppet. I just want to be a real kid or whatever. As long as I boy being and Neil lived like Neil did, I'll be moving faster than you see. You don't know

if his computers are a master in my cheek. Keep guessing I'll be sweating like the pastor when he preached and got him pay attention like his I'm a teacher. Now you kids, don't pass or I'll whip your at and know my white friends sack because the crypto crash. All right, dad, Hey, what's good? What's good? People? I'm dope knife lingua franca. We are waiting on reparations. Man, Harry, that ship up, so it's good with you, yo? Nothing. I mean I heard there's some wild ship going up

in Athlete. So I think I've spoken in recent episodes about the uptick and gun violence. He had a recent shooting. I may have referenced that suspect it's fifteen years old. I suspected who have killed a thirty eight year old man with an a R fifteen. Um, I'm getting calls like every day from people who like mothers whose houses got shot up in them and their seven kids are now homeless as they're seeking to move somewhere safer. And

then Sunday, UM, I got a uh. It was informed that there was a an attempted robbery at a local pool UM the like a splash pad like aquatic recreational facility UM about a ten minute walk from my house. UM where a guy showed up with a rifle and trying to steal the cash box and then upon leaving h car jack someone at gunpoint. Um. And then when the police arrived, um, they shot him. They shot him to death. And so that is like that all transpired in the park where I walk every day, UM, Sunday

and so. And you know, I've been speaking with people who work in the like with the homeless community also very near my house. They believe this man may have been a part of that community. Um. Um his he went by, his name has been released, but he but but in the like a homeless community, like he went by like a um, like a moniker. Until they're trying to confirm that this was the person they think it was because they haven't they hadn't seen this guy around,

you know, he wasn't around yesterday. They won't really where is he? And so um you know, I I uh kind of issued a statement about the situation. UM. You know, there's two ways to answer the question did this have

to happen? And if you look at the facts of the immediate context that he was armed with the rifle that he you know, assaulted several people, um and had a standoff with the police, the short answer would be yes, if you look at the fact that he may have been homeless, and you know, look at all of the all of the things in his life that led him to that point that he's gonna rob the cash box from a children's like uh like uh, pool and steal a car like you know, you're not living your best

life if you got to that point, and that everything every support he may have had or lacked is a matter of public policy, like you know, And any opportunity he may have had her lacked, any stability he may have had her lacked, are all choices that governments make. And imagine it's going to be pretty hard for them

to put together exactly what what when we're wrong. And that's really a broader policy prescription that I've argued previously for and I feel like I'm or just from this scenario as well, is that we do not have a comprehensive system of reporting on collecting information about the folks that end up in our jails or end up interacting in the criminal justice system, about the life circumstances that

brought them to the point of criminal activity. And imagine what we could do with that information if we had a quantifiable if we had a database of like, uh, you know, interviews with every person that ends up getting picked up by the cops and so is sitting in jail and and say, huh, we have a remarkable pattern of people that dropped out of high school, or of people that had substant abuse issues, or people that were homeless, like and could like use that data to say maybe

we should invest in house thing so that yeah, you're stopping for you even get to that point. And so I've just had that. Really it's been waiting on me a lot, and and then and it comes and it actually comes to them. It brings us to the topic of this episode. UM interview that I did a few weeks ago with my friend and journalist and writer pal Matt Polver, we talked about neoliberalism and the fact that every like every other part of the social safety net

underneoliberalism gets the ax, housing gets the accent. You know, um uh, well, you know the various for benefit programs is up for grabs, up for privatization, except or and even not even except and even um uh security forces. You know that that that's that's the last standing I guess social safety net, if you game call it that safety net for so long though, does it even necessarily

qualify as the safety net anymore? And so fucking tight rope. Yeah, it's like thinking that it's it's tight together like band aid bandages, right right right? Yeah? And so I, um, you know, everyone thinks I'm a compaiter and stuff, and that might you know, be accurate sometimes, but in this regular scenario, going back to the scenario, this dude, I feel I feel terrible for the police officer that had

to shoot this man. Are unraveling of a social safety net put him in the position where he had to kill someone. Like no, but I don't want that for anybody. Then I'd of doubt they want that for themselves. And

so um. In this episode we kind of talk about the the like what neoliberalism is, how we see it manifest particularly in Atlanta and in Atlanta hip hop and so um, I'm just also reflecting, uh, the last couple of days on how we're seeing it here in Athens, how we see that, how we see it everywhere, um, and and how it directly impacts you know, you think very sister systemically about you know, these systems of power

and like capital, etcetera. But like the way it impacted what man's life that ended on Sunday because he was so desperate he stole forty bucks out of a cash box at a children's playground. Yeah, and it's like nobody, nobody really is going to ever get to know, like what his full story was. No, no one will ever know his his whole story. I doubt that you know, GB.

I will do an investigation determined, the Georgia Verreau Investigation will do an investigation determined the shooting was justified to close the book on it and walk away, because context, like the idea of like, oh, the context of which this thing happened is so limited to like the the the immediate contacts and what happened, and and loses all of the full context that actually explains both why it

happened and how it could be prevented. So well, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to be back with that interview with Matt Polver right after the jump. So we are here with uh Matt pulverum a writer that's based here in Athens, Georgia. Um. So not thanks for joining us. Tell us a little bit about who you are, Matt Pulver. I'm a writer and UH researcher here in Athens, Georgia.

I'm happy to have you on here. UM. I've loved a lot of the work that you've done, both on you know, local pieces of history, but then particularly this piece UM you wrote in two Douz sixteen I believe UM Empire State of the South, UM, which talks a little bit about neoliberalism, talks a lot about neoliberalism and the ways that it's impacted in Lennon hip Hop and so usually on the show we look at specific pieces of policy, housing policy, policing, labor, but this week we're

gonna be looking at sort of a bundle of policy choices made under the common framework of neo liberals liberalism. And how have you seen that impact Atlanta and then UM consequently consequently UM Atlanta and hip Hop. But to start out to make sure we and our listeners are beginning from a similar foundation, let's talk about what neoliberalism is before discussing some of its manifestation manifestations in the city Atlanta. So, how would you define neoliberalism? Yeah, I mean,

I'm okay, so neo liberalism, what ner? What neoliberalism isn't uh for me? Is UM new liberalism, like liberal like the way in the States we talked about you know, the Democrats are liberals and and and the neoliberal would be just like a new liberal right the way to the segment the words you would just be like oh sure, like if you are new and you are to the left. Actually more specific than that, confusingly, it's it's a conservative raft of policies. I mean it's it's basically, you know,

it's hyper capitalism. Um. You know, it's liberal liberalism in the in the old school uh sense, the more sort of European sense of the word, where you know, the liberalization of of markets, um, making basically the extension of

of of capitalist logic two virtually anything and everything. So typically how I think about it, you know, in the last thirty years, you can think of it as maybe like you know, Reaganomics or or Faturism, um that didn't gets adopted by uh liberals so called you know the Clinton I sort of democratic party, but it begins, I mean, it's a conservative project. It's you know, it's uh, it's the encroaching or or the sort of the devouring of the nation state and the functions of the nation state

by capital. So you know what does that mean. It means like you know, privatizing uh in fort rupture privately you know, water, privatizing education, public housing. UM, it's the you know, ultimately what it is is sort of the erasure or at least the dinution of national sovereignty, uh at the behest of of you know, globalized capital um, you know, after neo liberalism. Mean you know, so so what you know does two things you know, sort of inside the country. What it does is it it's it's

Welfairer form under Clinton. It's it's attempts to privatize education, privatized infrastructure, privatized prisons, private size, privatize the military, all these big uh huge federal outlays that that investors look at, uh all the you know the world overlook at and and just you know, lick their chops that you know, there's so much money to be made if you if you made every student a a customer basically, So you do that sort of internally and then externally sort of

on the global scale, you now have uh multinational you know or even sort of post national sort of corporate entities and banks and flows a capital that uh that that override national sovereignty, you know, so then you have things like the NAFTA zone, and then you had you know, the Transpacific Partnership that was you know scuttled, but you know, we'll probably come back in some form. Uh. But but yeah, but simply it's it's it's the shrinking of government, um

and the sort of the ultimate devouring of government. And it's and it's uh, you know, and it's actions by capital. It's hyper capitalism to put it, to put it in

a sort of a word. And so if yeah, totally, totally And in the piece you talk a little bit about how, for example, with like free enterprise zones, which um Clinton I Democrats termed empowerment zones to kind of give it more by fire, sup by in and it sometimes has the sheen of like, oh, expanding liberties, giving people more options, lifting people up by like giving more people access to markets, when really it's it seems like it's giving markets more control over human lives than um

than like enduring you know, uh, ensuring rights through how like strong strong forms of government, right, because I mean, you know, you know, capital is not beholden to you know, say what you want about about the state of you know, American democracy and the ability to to alter its course. You know, citizens, Uh, there's still an avenue for that. Capital doesn't doesn't have to give two ships about you

and doesn't you know. So it's it's a it's an entirely different arrangement, um when you when you invite capital and to be uh more and more the sort of the sole arbiter of people's fates. That's you know, where they have no say whatsoever, you know in the end. Yeah, So in your in your PSU, you say that, um, neoliberal globalization doesn't make the many nations into one, but each into many, which I found really interesting because by the definition just gave it sounds like, oh, you know,

it's with like NAFTA or like TPP like globalization. It's like you know, raising borders making us all uh citizens of this one global like community. So can you talk us a little bit about this idea of actually the way that neal liberal neoliberal globalization sort of creates more

borders and because further fragments and segments society in certain ways. Yeah, yeah, I mean I think this is I feel like this is an under studied, under analyzed uh component of of neoliberal globalization because yeah, I mean I think we have this sort of you know John Lennon utopia is sort of in our minds. Uh yeah, yeah right. And it does do that. I mean, it does connect you know that it does connect London to New York, to Rio

to Beijing. There are nodes um of capital that do exist in in in a large sort of global apparatus or or a network. You know that that is real um and and it and it does erase um the the power of borders in a lot of ways, especially for capital, not not not for people, um, ask anybody on the southern border of this country. But um. But it it either you might think of it as a sort of replacing or moving the those sort of earthtwhile

national borders um into into the nation state itself. So um it starts to bisects and segment um nation states that that used to be more whole or unitary um. While simultaneously connecting um nodes of of capital power metropolis is you know uh uh and and the various sort of capital flows and supply chains. You know it does. There is this connecting of the world, but then also this simultaneous um dividing of of you know, cities and

and and cities from rural areas. Um. You know, there's a oh God, I forgive his name, but there's a there's a British thinker who or writer who has this conception of of the anywheres in the sumwhares then anywhere is are sort of the cosmopolitans um who you know might live in or near a big metropolis in the States or or anywhere across the world, and they are in a way more connected to each other than they are to their um sort of countrymen, for lack of

a better way of saying, fellow citizens. UM. And I think that's uh, that's honestly, I think that's that's how we partially diagnosed the political crisis here in the States and in Britain, Brexit, uh, India, you know, all over the world, these you know, these anywhere's, these sort of people who um are um you know, engaged in you know, the knowledge economy and can sort of could could easily plug themselves into London or Beijing or or Lapoor or someplace,

and and the somewheeres who who are who are still rooted in place, um in anyway. And so in Atlanta, we we you know, we see m UM, especially during the nineties, we see a heightened a manifestation of this where you see these UM borders that are that are increasingly determinative, you know, of of of someone's fates or people's fates UM inside the old nation state. If that,

if that, if that makes any sense. Yeah, let's get into specifically how we see this manifest physically and like the geography of Atlanta, perhaps starting off with thinking around UM like housing policy. UM. So in the piece, you speak a little bit about back when they were preparing for the Olympic Games, uh, things they needed to make the city look nice for all those influx of people that were coming, and what some of the impacts were on what that then meant for the way in the

city got redeveloped UM in that time. Yeah, I mean it's Atlanta provides a really interesting way to look at, you know, the twentieth century where you have in FDR comes to Atlanta to commemorate Techwood Homes right there in the in the middle of Atlanta at the first public housing for for Atlanta and white white Americans at the time UM and then in UM Techwood Homes becomes the first public housing uh project demolished by the City of Atlanta on their way to demolishing all all public housing

stock in the city of Atlanta. Atlanta becomes the first major American city two demolish all housing UM to pursue uh what you know, to replace it with what they called a diversified real estate company. The head of the U Atlanta Housing at Thorne talked about uh connecting the projects with quote the world of modern real estate, capital and finance, UM, privatizing thing basically or semi privatizing, right exactly, the idea of like with like empowerment. So I was like, oh,

we're modernizing, you know they of Atlanta. It sounds so like like grand and like uplifting in a certain sense. But it's like, who was it lifting ultimately living capital? It's not it's not really like looking at the people are living in these homes, etcetera. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's a it's a it's a pretty story that they

can they can tell UM. But I mean if you look, if you look at where you know tech what Holmes used to be, Uh, it was right smack dab there next to Georgia Tech, right where Centennial Park is right against the edge of it. Uh that was just fantastically valuable real estate that was right in the middle of of their little Olympic stuff they wanted to do. Uh. It was also uh you know, it's where uh poor

folks lived. And then they didn't They wanted to, you know, get the city all gussied up for for their little twirl on the international stage. So it served these you know, these multiple purposes. We get get rid of those uh that blight of of of the poor people who have been left behind by the city. Um, and also clear the way for for capital. Um also turns it turns each of those public housing residents into you know, they either get a voucher or just have to make it

on their own. And it turns into uh profit bearing customers now and and and listen, no one saying that that the the twentieth century public housing model was perfect. Um. There were certainly things that probably you know, they needed to be done, but uh, you know it was. I think it's honestly its best to think of it. It's like urban renewal. It's the there's no less there's no less trauma in demolishing every single home of people in

public housing in Atlanta. That's no less traumatic than than what happened in the you know, forties fifty sixties during urban renewal. Um. It's it was actually perhaps even on

a larger scale. Yeah. I mean, you say what you want about public housing and like its quality and what um having these condensed pockets of poverty than me and for the quality of life people living there with regards to crime, etcetera, qualities of schools, But like displacing those folks and mass it's certainly gonna be traumatic, no matter no matter how well they're living where they are. For sure. Well, yeah, I mean because it's not it's not done. The residents

are not the ones with agency. I mean, you know, it's it's it's one thing. If you know, it's it's a it's done from above, just like urban renewal was. You know, there have been renewal that that bill uh a lot of those projects. Um returned again and said, you know, like you know, we need this land over here. UM, so here, we're gonna put you all over We're gonna take your houses, uh, knock them down, burn them down, put you in this public housing over here. Fifty years later,

Oh no, we need that land over there. We need that public housing land. Sorry about that. We're gonna push you out, you know, and now give you Section A vouchers or whatever, and uh, good fucking luck. Like they did. They didn't, they didn't track anybody they you know, for years. I used to I talked to some researcher at Georgia State back when I was writing this and you know, and asked, does anybody know where those people ended up? No,

because that wasn't that wasn't even an afterthought. They don't care. They needed the length and then and they needed those folks out of the way until they did it, you know, period. That that's what happened. So how do we see the impacts of particularly neo liberal housing policy manifest like in hip hop music from Atlanta as particularly in the PC speak about a number of music videos that, like in the visuals that are presented kind of tell the tell the story of of um of a lot of the

impacts of policies such as these. Yeah, I mean, you know you'll see it in in in visuals um where you have, you know, because when you what you end up with are these little, you know, smaller and smaller sort of pockets of you know, especially as the sort of the wealthy infill has happened in cities like Atlanta, where everybody's come back in the upperly mobile, you know, folks have come back in and throwing their weight around.

You have these you know, smaller and smaller pockets of intense wealth and intense poverty, and they're sort of, you know, very close to each other. It's it's very um uh a sort of a chaotic patch work of you know of of and you see it also in places like Detroit. Um. I think Danny Brown, Detroit rapper uh has wrapped about this. Um. Is this a song called like field House, I think.

And it's like field field House house House, field House field that Nika muff Thick like where you know where there's fields where they used to be houses and and it's just this um, it's this sort of Mike grow rearrangement of the geography. UM. When it's when it's when it's not macro, but like you know, it's it's it's

very it's strange there. You know, there their walls in between like um, you know really really uh upscale condos and like Edgewood and then like affection eight housing separated by this like big you know, border wall sort of thing with cameras and and you know, spikes or whatever. Um. And and then and then you have rappers who who grew up uh you know, in the in the projects and those those were their homes. And you know, so

there's a there was a rapper pill. There is a rapper pill Um not as big as he was a few years ago. He was with Killer Mike for a little while and I think may back music and um, you know, he he talks a lot about that, you know, I mean he he speaks on that that utter powerless, the people struggle to the streets, sent them calling them hall that got out the people preaching column of phone of calling a place home but you know, and not the not the best home in the world, but it

was it was your home. You you know, you live your life. You you you know, I mean you just have that to have that taken from you, um and on mass you know, with with no with no with no argument or agency on your on your part. Um. So yeah, pill is a is a rapper talked a lot about that. Um. There's been some others um, you know, and and you know it could be argued, and I can't. Um. It could be argued that, you know, the stuff you see by the end of the nineties plase thousands in

Atlanta hip hop um sort of reflects this darker mood. Um. You know, like by the time you get to like outcast Stankonia, UM, it's got a darker, more political vibe. UM Killer Mike Uh drops his first album somewhere in the early those first years of of of the two thousand's UM Goody mob was you know, speaking on some

of this stuff during the nineties. Um. But if things get there's this weird paradox right where you have you know, and and thinking more broadly to step to to zoom out from from Atlanta during the nineties, Uh, when Atlanta is experimenting with this hyper capitalism. More broadly, you have this uh sort of capitalist triumphalism. Right, that's the end of the Cold War. Communism has been vanquished, and so in the political elite you have this this I mean,

they're they're fucking giddy. It's this this triumphalism, this imperial and capitalistic triumphalist spirit. It's the end of history, right, says Fukiyama. UM. But on the on the on society's um edges. Let's say, Um, you and certainly in youth culture you've across the board, Um you find uh that is not shared at all. There's a there's a there's there's a sort of a darkness that that is, I would argue recognized by uh youth culture broadly her hip

hop for sure. UM, that's saying, you know, things aren't so sweet, right, I mean like Clinton is is printing about you know, with the with you know, the the doal is going through the roof, and you know the

stock market is is incredible. Uh. Um, but you know folks like Killer Mike and dead Press and all these people that are coming coming around in the into the nineties early two thousands or saying Na, she ain't sweet like that, like um and and and and I think in Atlanta you see that you see a real pronounced um case of of this sort of disconnect between the elite spirit of of triumphalism and and and capitalism will solve everything, markets will solve everything, every social ill um

and and folks on the bottom or or on the edges, however you want to say, are uh providing a counter

narrative to that. I was thinking about a little bit about what the relationship is between because we talked a little bit about like the way impacts geographies and then the peace you talk about the way that then geography is in Atlanta, it kind of gets split up in then in Atlanta, hip hop gets split up into these police zones, which is actually something I've I'm familiar with through like the uprising last summer and like organizing around

like where different protests we're gonna be like people talk about, Yo're gonna be in Zone wanting only in Zone three, like these these like the police states sort of like delineating these neighborhoods in a way that actual community a sense of community cohesion or like or um or continuity of like landscape with regards to like actual physical neighborhoods

and people living to get there together do um. And so I wonder if you could speak some to the with the relationship between neoliberalism and like the rise in policing in it and yeah, yeah, that's that's a good question. Yeah, I mean, the only the only part of the state that really survives intact um when when the liberalism makes its way in is you know, is is police powers

is the monopoly on violence. And yeah, I mean it's such a it's I mean, we all know if you if if you've grown up listening to Atlanta hip hop, I mean you know, you know which rappers are from which police zone, and so we're it's kind of a natural things like Gucci is from Zone six, you know, Like, but but what a dystopian fucking geography like you know, not like you know, you're not from you know in

New York. You know you're from uh you know, um, Spanish Harlem, you're from bed Sty, You're from you know, they at least they they it's got a name. It's a. It's a. It's a in Atlanta, it's a. Yeah. The it's it's drawn by the power of the police, in the jurisdiction of of the police. Um, which is which is just so fitting in in in the first you know, American neoliberal city. That that would be how geography comes to be marked um by police zone. Um, you know,

free enterprise zones. No, no, I mean, no rapper ever you know shouting out free interprise zone. But that's another you know, these these strange zones where you know, it's it's all about the presence or absence of governmental power in in in the various ways that it can manifest, whether through you know, regulation and taxation or or or or the means of violence or you know, and coercion. You know, it's it's it's just, um, it's it's it's

extremely neoliberal to me. Yeah, and so I guess why I hear you're saying what I hear from Like when as now thinking about the music through this lens, it's like you might hear people talk about the under investment in their communities around areas like housing or education, or the struggles to get a job because you know, capital slowing into the hands of the of of you know, elite corporations and not necessarily being channeled from the government

into communities that need uplift. But the only thing that gets left that like the government is funding is the police. And so if you you know, fun the police. You've got people out here, you have like Rich Holdmy Kwan and his music video you reference to the in the East, Um, you know, tussling with the cops, because that's the that's the last direction that's the left between government and the

people that people even have under the policy paradigm. Yeah right, I mean and yeah, I mean you you know, you you end welfare, you you start tearing down people's homes, and so people are in more and more precarious states. So you know, so the feeling by you know, government leaders and the elite is that we well, we need more, more cops, more uh, you know, more cells, more, more prisons, more you know, um, and and there's and there's never uh,

there's never a hesitation to to drop money on that. Um. But you know, housing, you know, and and and and the rest of it, um, you know, is neglected. Um. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's sort of the that's the last sort of you know, residue of of the state, you know, under under increasing neoliberalism. I think and and and Supercommandante marcos Um, the Tapatista spokesman. Yeah, I didn't know about this until I read to a piece and I was like, Yo, that's crazy, that's super cool. Yeah.

I talked to something about like their reaction to some newliberal policies. I guess it was in the early nineties. Yeah, so so they yeah, so they they kick off their rebellion against the Mexican state and on January one the day that NAFTA went into effect. Um and Supercommandante Marcos was sort of the spokesman for the group and end up ended up sort of becoming the for a while. They're the sort of the premier voice on on on neoliberalism.

And as he hypothesizes, Uh, you know what it does is that it doesn't It doesn't you know, unite the world into into one big, shiny happy place. But you know, place starts placing borders, um inside you know, the erstwhile nation states and uh and and leaves only the sort of the residual power of of the police, and and I guess the military, um, but certainly the police, the sort of the the internal you know, armed apparatus of

the state. Um. Yeah, you know Marcos is is helpful, uh, you know, to think about, to think through you know, what happened in the nineties and and ship was happening now. But um, he has some really uh some really good insights on on sort of what what happened in that really crucial moment of the nineties when basically the entire world becomes for the first time in human history, Uh, the entire world becomes a a fully capitalist space. Um.

So yeah, I can't say enyhing about Marcos. Yeah, and I feel like I hear echoes in that, like they were rising up in their own way. And then you've got like Killer Mike um who in Reagan and other songs kind of talked about like rebelling against the state, like being surveilled, being under this constant valence um and having to like kind of fight back like you know,

who's that people in my window strapped, etcetera. Uh, perhaps not through as like crystallized of you or like as you know, with that like sort of the clarity of framework of like Howell and things have come together to create the situation, but still the same sort of like e those of like no man they say, right and

like I'm gonna fight back. The only have to take me a lat yeah right right, yeah, yeah yeah that in that surveillance piece to right like um yeah you know goody mob has you know, self therapy from sometime in the in the mid to late um. You know.

Then Mike uh sort of interpolates that um and and you know, and then you also have in Atlanta you have these sort of public private partnerships or or just the entrance of capital into policing where you know, they're they're just this this proliferation of cameras everywhere, um, private you know, but but then they're sort of commandeered by the cops UM through various you know, arrangements where you know, the cops can and I'm not sure exactly how it happens,

but they get they can get on the back end of private, private sector cameras that the police have access to. And so it's this way of like privatization. But but as long as the police still have controls and like uh are well funded too, like uh take advantage of you know, the ways that capital marginalizes effectively. Yeah right, yeah, I mean yeah, I mean, and like I was saying earlier, you know where you have that sort of weird paradox of of that triumphalism among the elite and then and

anger and desperation at the edges you see. Yeah, I mean, whether it's Killer Mike or or UM Immortal Technique, Dead Preys, most Deaf, you know, all these all these folks Um the Roots their album UM and that comes out in what maybe two thousand something like that things fall apart, you know, everything is I think there's just a either a darker tone that that starts to emerge or a revolution and you know and and and with folks like dead pres and and more technique and people like that,

I mean a revolutionary Um, a revolutionary stance. I mean, you know, the pres um and well and our you know socialist black nationalists, um, and who provided just you know, such such a counter narrative to you know, that Clintonite Reaganite again triumphalism, that that that that glorious victory that the American empire had had achieved. Yeah. Um. In wrapping up, UM, I had one last question. We kind of talked about, but when neoliberalism manifest and housing policy with the displacement

of UH communities in public housing. We talked a little bit about the way it feeds into economic development with empowerment zones. Talked about the way it's sort of how the police stayed ends up being the only thing left

of the state. UM. As all these things get privatized, I wanted to talk a little bit about the privatization they attempted privatization of water in Atlanta, because this is actually something that most step touches upon someone in New World water Off of both sides, UM, so talk to us a little bit about that and then UM, uh yeah, I might like bring up the song the most step

song and like kind of related to them. Yeah yeah, I mean yeah, it's it's it's it's it's not as UM, it's not as sexy maybe UM as you know, the privatization of police or the military or whatever. But you know, at at the time when when Mayor Campbell privatizes Atlanta's water, it was the largest UH public infrastructure privatization and you us history it still might be I'm not I'm not sure, but I mean it was. You know, that was one

of those last frontiers for UM global capital. So you know this, this this multinational UH meta national conglomerate Suez UH buys this this hefty chunk of Atlanta infrastructure, the provision of water UM at the same time that another UH big multi national conglomerate had done the same in Bolivia.

Now in Bolivia it ends up sparking and uprising UH in coach Obamba, which then eventually gives us UH abl Morales, who as a leader in that in that rebellion, UH he was a cocoa farmer union leader, and then becomes of course the president, very popular president of of Olivia for years after that. But in Atlanta, UM, it's it's a it's quieter um it. It goes off without a

hitch for a while until it hits the fan. Uh because because corporations so't hefty business vessing with our water UM, and it showed and uh that thing that I mean it was only a few years and that plan went belly up and in Atlanta had to figure out a new way to do it. But uh, yeah, I mean it's um Like I said, it's it's it's not the it's not the sort of sexist it's not of of

neoliberalisms um conquests. But you gotta think like these are these huge apparatus is where you know, at the city, state, federal level that that corporations look at and they're thinking, you know what, why is this, why is this? Why is this being publicly why is this publicly owned? You know? Uh, when when we could be making money for investors and shareholders. Well, I actually think like the privatization of something is basic.

It's water is like sexier perhaps even then when we talk about privatization of housing or or um channeling government funds into um um projects in the private sector around economic development. Because water is so basically we can argue, like I don't want to have to argue, but I will argue someone over whether housing is a human right, whether the government has a duty to economically empower people. Oh,

you literally can't argue that. Like everyone like you need water, like you can be without everything else in your life. If you don't have water, you cannot live. And so like the fact that it's so basic actually makes it more insidious and more interesting potentially than like squabbling over like well should the public housing, you know, we should public housing even exists conversation I don't want to have to have, but do have to have other times of

bossing making Yeah, that that's a good point. Like in Bolivia, um, there was a they would say that, I forget the big corporation that that bought Olivia's water, but somehow, per the agreement or the contract they owned the Oblivians would say that that that this company owned the rain, which is a really fucking dystopian way of thinking about these because apparently like any rain that would fall into cisterns or something that would be collected was was was property,

was a commodity owned by some multinational, faceless corporation. Um, yeah, I mean to own the rain is fucking dark. So yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean it's it's it's at the basis of human life and for it to be commodified. And again in the in the case of Bolivia, they they they buy the rain and then uh dramatically hike the prices. I want to say, like they tripled the price of water something for you know, for for some desperately poor people.

I mean, that's that's why you get that's how that's how you get a revolution real quick, revolution real quick. And that's why it's perhaps more like scintilating than like, oh, if the government is not providing housing like we're used to that suddenly we don't got the water. Yeah no, people about to be at the streets. Yeah right, yeah, no, yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. Word, well, thank you for talking.

We're talking with us, are talking with me. Um, where can people keep up with your writing and other projects we're going on? Um, you know, I'm not doing a ton of writing right now, but you can certainly check out my page on medium. That's where you can find, uh, this article that we were talking about um um and a handful of others. Uh yeah, Matt Pulver on on medium would be the place to go. So that was dope. Yeah, that was Matt Pulver. Where do you say that we

could find him again? He said, check out out his page on medium. Yeah, he's got a medium. Yeah, because like Matt Pulver Medium, he's on that ship. I think he's like Matt Pulver on Twitter. He's got funny tweets. I mean, like, but they're pretty it's pretty low key. I know that whole conversation was bad. You know, he's a funny motherfucker. Yeah, yeah, and very smart, very smart.

Educated me a lot about people to throw around the term new cano liberalism a lot um what like what do we what do we really mean when we say that? It's one of those like you can make fun of it by saying something something neoliberal because people use it so much, right, but like really understanding like the transferences of capital and power that it entails and how it like all those things come together. It's like a uniform system. And I'm all about you know, definitions, you know, definitions

of words and meanings of words. So that's that was useful for me, so now I won't misuse that ship. Next week, we're going to be speaking about District Attorney Larry Krasner's reelection UM as disert attorney in Philadelphia. He was going up against the um you know, police unions and has been very progressive and kind of one of the leaders of the progressive prosecutor movement across the country. UM. And so we're gonna talk about what it means that

he got re elected last week. We'll also we'll also talk about hip hop's connection or relationship with various district attorneys as in real life and threw her in rhyme too. Hey Joe, Joe, Joe, can you please drop a beat for us? Oh yeah, float like a butterfly, thing like a B. I don't wrap like these other guys to sing R and B if you wack us some other lines. Bring out a street when you smoke to the crime. See all the seeds on the streets. They know me,

calling me the dope one. We lingual Frank and we both roam like show guns the feet, hordes and sheets swords and go dump hi, y'all save in the world to smoke lunch, No dunch, put a knife and the ship room for my elbows. You know who cipher it is comes made to fire like a vendomou spiper. Spit marry to this hip hop. Get doing life for a bit. So I'm never waiting and I'm looking for some reparations. Republicans are trying to put his back in segregation. This

is just a taste of just a little demonstration. While you hate it. I'm like Franca, I'm dope night and we are waiting on reparations. Yes, damn, that was off as fune. Listen to Waiting on Reparations on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.