WKPWP Interview Classics (10 Yrs Ago): Ex-WWE Creative John Piermarini talks WrestleMania 29, raucous crowd at Raw, a look back Legacy, more

Longing for some nostalgia, or maybe you want to learn some wrestling history, don't miss the nineties Pass cast Every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. Alex and Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by taking you through the Torch issue from that very week. Follow news from the WWF and WCW, and all the happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as

The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties passcasts every Friday for the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. Now, PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Killer Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for wades and interview with one of pro wrestling's newsmakers. In today's Interview Classic, we jump back ten years to my interview with x WWWE creative team member John Piermarini. We talked to

WrestleMania twenty nine, the raucous crowd at RAW that week. I'll look back at legacy including Cody Rhodes, Randy Orton, and of course Teddy Biassi Jr.

And we also had to look ahead to WrestleMania thirty and more. As always, we had live calls and emails and insight into the mind and backstage demeanor and practices of Vince McMahon. John was a frequent guest during this era for a reason on my podcasts, and you'll hear it here on our ten years Ago Interview Classic Flashback from April twelve, twenty thirteen, and it is Today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast for Thursday, April twentieth, twenty twenty three.

Tomorrow we'll have the follow up show the Flagship from ten years ago with Jason Powis. Look Welcome to dp Wporch Livecast. I am Way Keller, editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter since nineteen eighty seven and also pewtorch dot com since nineteen ninety nine and now the PW Torch apps for the last three or four years free on iPhone, Android, Amazon, Kindle,

Fire and Windows phones and many international carriers. Just do a search for PW Torch and also for the last three and a half years or going on three and a half the PW Torch Livecast. We are here five days a week and sometimes six on Big after Big pay per views, I host on Tuesdays with Jason Powell of the website pro Wrestling dot Net and on Fridays, it is Interview Friday, and in about five minutes, I will be joined by former WWE Creative Team member John Piermarini, a friend of the show for a

couple of years now. Actually it's probably going on three years since since he first appeared on the show. He spent two years working for WWE on the Creative Team, or the better part of two years in two thousand and nine and two ten, and he was around a couple of WrestleManias, and he

was around for a lot of raws. And what I'm definitely interested in talking to him about, and we've gotten some email questions already about this is how does Vince McMahon and the rest of the team who are involved behind the scenes in WWE react to crowds like we saw on Monday Nights who was a raucous crowd when raw was over, like a lot of people. I was just

going nuts. I Mean, I thought this was just an amazing wrestling experience to watch on television and had to be, as many have testified, an amazing experience in person in the building in East Rutherford, New Jersey at ISSOD Center. So I want to find out from John how Vince McMahon, the creative team and management react to various types of crowds, really quiet crowds and really raucous crowds. But like Monday night, I thought, Wow, this

was great, made for great TV. Now the further out I get a little more sober, a little further away from the adrenaline rush of oh my god, I can't believe what I'm watching or what I just saw. There's some pros and cons to it, and some pros and cons to a crowd quote hijacking a show. The pros clearly are the level of energy on that show we haven't seen. And I mean there's been some crowds in England that have been really good and you know, crazy and loud, and there's been

some other crowds. Obviously during the cm punk in Chicago against John Cena, that was wild, but that was for a wrestler in particular who was a hometown guy and he was really over and they were anti another guy who was the top star. This was different and it was fascinating to watch play out. And you know, we talked last week on the show about the boring chant a team to throw John Cena off a little bit two weeks ago on Raw, and then this last week the crowd at the EISAD Center did,

among many many many things, meant chant boring at John Cena. And so it shows that something can catch on, especially if it seems like a wrestler is affected by it a little bit. So I'm curious how crowd to react going forward, including watching SmackDown to night just to see if there's anything on

TV that that is a residual effect of it. So the pro side is it makes WWE seem like a really overproduct that the crowd is just into and you can't turn the channel when you're watching it, and it helped create a star. Is he going to be a novelty act like Santino or Zach Ryder or is he going to be something bigger than that? That remains to be seen. But Fondongo, he became kind of a cult wrestler overnight and validated time so far that fencic Mann has invested in him. But what about reacting

the way that they did to John cnn Rybeck. Well, the crowd kind of or ww WE kind of put the crowd put themselves in a position to have the fans react in an unpredictable way because Raybeck and Scene are both baby faces. Same thing with Shamus, but in a different way. They put Shamus and Norton in a bad position by not having a true he all in a true faith, and it put the fans in a position to entertain themselves

since they didn't feel all that strongly about who won. So I think WW has to learn a lot of lessons, or can learn a lot of lessons from this, and I think we'll see going forward what those what some of those lessons turn out to be, and that will be dictated by future crowds. So that is absolutely one of the main subjects that I want to talk about on today's show, obviously, and we have opened foam lines for John Primerini. We want to talk more about Wresslemania, John, James Caldwell,

who's John John Primmerini. Of course, James Caldwell and Sean Radkin yesterday talked a lot about Wressomania and raw And also I'm willing to take some calls on impact, although I don't know that John watch the show, so we probably want to stay focused on WWE unless it's a quick thought or question on last night's show. When I say that only because it did air last night, it was live, and it was one of their bigger shows, I do want to note ratings are in for that show, and it's not good news

for TNA. This is a show that they built up and they started off with an awful first quarter hour rating of point seven five. I do not know what happened to cause such a low rating, but the good news is it grew from there. Not it grew, but it didn't end up much higher than what the average has been lately. Went from point seven five to point seven nine to point nine one, down a little bit too point eight four in the fourth quarter, but there were two commercial breaks, I believe

in that quarter. Then in the beginning of the second hour it jumped up to a point nine six, and then a point nine eight and then a one point zero six in the main event at least peaked with a one point one three rating that averaged out to a point nine nine with one point two million viewers. So that's something that James Caldwell will be breaking down and writing more about in in his story on pwtorch dot com, and I'll have more to say about it also on the Kelor hot Line this weekend. So lots

of cool stuff to talk about now. Our phone numbers here are six four, six, seven, two one nine eight two eight six four six seven two one nine eight two eight and the email you can email me right now is PW Torch livecast at gmail dot com. PW Torch Livecast at gmail dot com. And I'll be checking for email questions for John Piermarini as the show progresses. We only have two people on hold right now, so if you want to get in line, we'll get to pretty quickly. I know sometimes

our wait times on this show are incredibly long. That is, at the moment not the case, so chime right in if you want to talk about Monday's Raw or the pay per view. Now. I'm assuming the two people on hold probably have questions for John. But as we await John calling in, he just had one thing come up that's going to cause him to have to call in five or ten minutes into the show, and he should be

with us any moment now. But if you have a question for John, wait till he comes on the show before calling unless you just want to get in line right away. But if I go to you and you just want to wait for John to be on the show, no harm and just say so, and I'll put you back on hold and we'll go back to you. But for the moment, I will go to Eric code two one six first and then eight six two two one six. Welcome to the show.

Please take your name and where you're from to one six brand. Okay, Brian, I'm putting you on hold because you're giving getting a lot of feedback. That's where I'm gonna bust a few ear drums. If there's anything you can do to get better reception on your phone, or if you just want to hang up and call right back, maybe you'll get a better connection. Brian. But it was really there's a lot of background noise and static there. Um. But I'll look for two one six to pop up again.

Please call back if you can. Okay, Um, let's go instead now to eight six two eight six two. Thanks for calling. Please state your name in where you're from. Hey, wait, hey, Kylan, how are you doing? Um? Well, I would like to stay on hold for John and damn thank resolutely, Like I said, no problem, we like that people are calling up for our guests. Oh shoot, um, okay, kylin, I hip, I'm not used to uh putting people in Oh no, I did put you on hold successfully? Okay? Good?

I thought I just hung up on you, but I didn't. All right, so let me let me save your name in the queue, and uh we'll try two and six one more time. Let's get that backround. Noises any better? Two one six? Yeah? Hey, bright, it's brand Way. Hey, it's Brandon from Cleveland. My question is work for John? So I can wait? If I absolutely glad we got people eager, eager to talk to John. Um, I will try try this one more time and uh go to five on six, five on six? You want

ask question to me? Or do you want to wait for John? Oh no, I'll give you a question that way. It's Casey long Oland New Sure. Thanks Casey. What have you got for me? Um? With all the speculation on whether ride back turned heel or if it was just to go up against John Cena, do you see any way that they give him a stone cold character where just nobody is safe around him. He's just as ding you can trust them me. He goes after anybody in every body.

I think they do I and I don't. I don't agree Casey with the idea that they turned him heal on Monday. Um, And like somebody on my Twitter accounts said, how can you turn someone hel when everybody cheers for what he did? And I don't think Monday's crowd is a great example of that. I don't think you can hold um people accountable or you can't hold accountable for for that turn um not working in front of that crowd, because as the announcers even said, it was kind of backwards day or bizarro day.

Um. And not every crowd it is going to be like that. They're not going to have that kind of international hardcore contingency that are you know, have all this pent up energy from a stadium show the night before when they really weren't hurt and they were cold, and then the most hardcore fans stayed an extra day and filled that building and you know they're they're the ones who bought the tickets to the second show, you know, the second show

of the weekend. Um, you know those are the hardcore fans. So I don't Yeah, I don't think. Well, so I'll address the second party question too, So I don't think that that that crowd should be a

big judgment on what the mainstream fans thought. And Bruce Mitchell and I and the Bruce Mitchellidio Show this weekend, close to two hours of the Bruce Mitchellidio Show, half the discussion or more was about that crowd on Monday and putting kind of a historical perspective on it and the pros and cons of it. And you know, one of the discussions was how many fans sitting at home on TV watch that it felt very differently than the crowd reaction and was that

good or bad for the product? With ry Back, the question is, does ww we want to have a character who's cast as a baby face where nobody's safe, and how do you how do you work that character without, like you said, Casey, imitating Steve Austen and having him look like not only a derivative of Goldberg, now a derivative of stone Cold. But that said, some good ideas are worth repeating in a different way in a different era. If you didn't repeat ideas from the past, wrestling shows would be

pretty empty because everything you see has in some way been done before. So Casey we're gonna say, oh, yeah, no, I I agree, it's just a stone call. Was such a unique character, you know that that he was a face, but he would turn on a face with no problem and get a bigger hop. Yeah, you know what like lightening bottle. You know. I would say too though that that was something that he did later. And like I really really really did not like when he gave

like, um was that stacy was it Stacy cable? He gave a stunn or tooth um. I wasn't a fan of that. I thought he started kind of seeming, you know, giving unprovoked, m unprovoked h stunners to people I thought was actually at the tail end of his run of being effective.

I liked him better when he went after people for a reason and not just to get kind of a pop for doing a move against against somebody who was kind of helpless in Volna. But but um, so I think Dribex should take a spot and I think you could book him in a way that would that would work case he appreciate the call. Do you want to do you want to come back on in a few minutes with when John as wizard? You want to me to put to hang up on you or put gen

hole. Yeah, you could put me on hold. I'll come down. Okay, I'll come back to you in a few minutes. This spring, you need nutritious, convenient meals to energize you for warmer, active days and to keep you on track reaching your goals. You don't want to be waiting around for food delivery or cooking when you can be out biking, hiking, playing tennis, like meat, playing pickleball. Factor America's number one ready to

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You worked behind the scenes in WWE on the creative team, um and uh in most of two thousand and nine and most of two thousand and ten. I believe that's right. Yep, yep, And so you're around for two WrestleManias, I believe, and also worked closely at times with a number of wrestlers who are still on the roster, of course, including John Cena,

and certainly you worked around Vince Icmahan. What a fascinating two days I know you were at you had a chance to tend Wrestlemanian person before we get to Monday's raw. Um and as we let phone callers still up the phone lines to ask you questions, UM, what what was your impression of WrestleMania as a show, uh, from a business perspective and also just as a live experience to uh, to see the event at that at that magnitude, So I gotta be honest as far as a WrestleMania goes, I didn't I didn't

see a lot of it. Um, oh, okay, I saw I saw uh. Let's see, I saw them, um Slater del Rio obviously, I saw um uh some of rock Cina. I saw a Punk Undertaker, um. And then I think I saw a Brock like the Hunter Brock. You have a majority of that. And then yeah, okay, so I guess I saw the big ones. Really, no one's talking about the other stuff, so you don't you don't have to worry too much. Um. Yeah, yeah, So what were your thoughts on what you saw?

And also, you know you can speak up to the booking also, yeah, you know, I thought, Um, I don't know, it didn't really feel like a WrestleMania as far as like the booking win. Um, A lot of rematches, um, a lot of a lot of I mean, I know that they did a pretty good job in building it up, but I didn't really think that the stories were strong. And I know that a lot of people were against the plump Undertaker story and the way that they

went about that. I was actually a fan of it. I actually thought that put although I believe Punk deserved to be the guy in there would take her at Mania, I didn't feel like it was a sort of a fresh WrestleMania matchup. But I think that they did what they did with the story, like really sort of turned it into one, at least for me.

But it sounds like I'm in the minority, Rock Sina, and again, you know, sometimes I read what you have to say, and although I agree with you again in um they booked it maybe the way that it should have been booked last year. It did it didn't give me much to to look forward to as far as I've got to see this this match again.

And I think most of it had to do with the fact that I don't think they properly told the John John Cena story from last year to this year, which was, you know, my life has been in a tailspin because I lost you. But in reality, I mean he beat Brock Lessner. It wasn't that bad, uh, And I don't think that actually they reversed history um WW officially moved to Brock match before WrestleMania. Did they really well?

But I mean a storyline wise, they almost have you know, I mean, you're right, how do you lose to Rock and then beat the former USC heavyweight champion and tell the story? So they actually just ignored that that happened conveniently, but I know what you mean as far as that goes.

Yeah, so you know, again, I don't want to go on forever just about that, but I feel like, you know, if that was the story that they were going to go with, which could have been really good, you know, and then towards the Anti kind of gained momentum by beating punks, they could have told that story, but they didn't have the backstory to really back it up. Hunter Brock, I don't know.

I think that. I think, if you're gonna have these guys there, and again, it was an argument I had when I was there, when we had Sean and Hunter and Batista and Jericho and guys that we knew weren't going to be there much so longer, wouldn't you have these guys? And God, I feel like it used to be this way when I was a kid watching you utilize those guys to create new stars. So what they did was they took everyone that they had that was established and they put them against

each other and didn't really help anybody. I don't think Sina, I don't think Sina beating Rock really did anything for him, you know, I mean bragging rights as far as what his character can say or how wwe can then go push him. But I don't think it really helped them. You know, they had Hunter who went against Rock, and they could have utilized both

guys against younger talent. Jericho they did. Jericho, they did. I'll give him that, But I feel like I feel like these guys have a limited lifespan left as characters in the WW universe, and I feel like they're not taking advantage of it to really help somebody out. And it really showed when we lost HBK and we lost a Hunter for a while when I was there and Batista and Jericho, and we had really nothing to show for it with guys walking away from that in Hey, you know, I got rid

of these guys or I beat them. And it's like the I compared to the lot to the heavyweight division in boxing. You know, you could have a guy be a world champion today, but no one will sit there and go okay, And I wonder how he would have measured up against the greats. You know, clich Goo, no one. No one wants to see clich Go, Tyson, clich Goo, al Uh, Clichko, holy Field. You know, so That's kind of where it's at with them, where people I think even go all right, seem as the big star, but

seem is not really the rock. He's not stone cold, he's not whole COVID, you know. And I think that they could actually give those guys that rub if they Randy cour Rock, Lesner, uh John now Brock fizzled out, you know, to his diverticulitis. But um, but you know, people would have wondered how would co tutor against Lesner, And they at the very end of Cotour's career, matched him against Lesner and Lesner one and

that helped put him over. That's I think what you're talking about with wanting to see something and I know MMA better in boxing, and your analogy works too, But that's what you're saying, you know, let's get Hunter in there and have him put over a dull Siegler. Let's have a Rock in there, not against somebody like Sena who's at in the last third of his prime and he's had a good run. He's not he's still in his prime, but really put some try to put somebody new over, and that's what

it seems like. They're not even looking for that and Jericho Fandango, as you pointed out, is the exception that proves the rule you're speaking of. Yeah, exactly, And you know, I think UFC has been so great at doing that. They see that the uh, the Keeto ortis is the Chuck Liddell's at this point, you know, like Van Hens, Dan Henderson, They're seeing these guys have main values, but they're on their way out and they and they don't have a title run left in them. So what

do they do. Let's match them against these up and coming guys and and make stars out of them and gives the dream match job, give the dream match that connects the tour. It's like even and that's twenty years ago back issues of the Torch that VFP members are able to read. Uh and uh. Scott Hall actually talked about this with me a few weeks ago in the live cast when I don't know if you heard it, John, but I did four and a half hours with Scott Hall and Sean Waltman a few weeks

ago. As it was amazing interview. UM and Scott talked about you know, being match against Randy Savage when he first got to WWE, and you know that Randy was a long time marquee, uh legacy established star in Raizer. Ramon was his character that bevins cmahn was in love with and he matched him up to give Scott Hall. You know that that that that evidence to current fans that this guy can hang with Randy, not just competitively but star

power wise. He can share the stage and look like he belongs. And that's that's It's not about winning and losing entirely or even mostly, I would say, it's standing in the ring and looking like you belong. And that's that's what you know, people have to evaluate, whether in karn about it or just in their guts. Did von Domo look like he belonged with Jericho? And you know, johny Kursky looked good against Jericho, like that was

a good match and he looked like he belonged in there. And and that's a that was a test with Rybeck initially when they actually started putting Raybeck against competitive guys. Does he look like he belongs in the ring against Jon far and he did so, and see I'm punk went through that too, So some guys have benefited from that. But WrestleMania, John seems like a platform and I want to ask you about during the two years you were there,

it seems like a platform or WWE isn't thinking about building future stars. They're thinking about maximizing the buy rate. And they've made the decision, I think, And tell me if you think I'm wrong that they think WrestleMania should be on top the biggest stars as the biggest stars, and they'll worry about building future stars the next day on Raw or the next you know, the next

couple of months. But WrestleMania is all about maximizing the buy rate, and they will not risk some guy who's not over at the proven top draw being in one of those top spots. Yeah, you know, I'm okay with that, as long as you know they understand that and correct me if I'm long that. I mean, what are they doing the other eleven months on

page for view one hundred thousand and two hundred thousand buys? I mean, you're not getting such a huge audience as long as you take to guys like the scene of rocks and triple h's and rock lesseners and undertakers and who have rest and realizing those guys properly on Raw to build these guys and sure, if you want to use WrestleManias as you know, the big card where the big names go at each other and the dream matches, that's fine. But

I don't think they're utilizing the other year. But you said a good point with the What's what Scott Halla said was you know he was so into the Razor Remote character that he put him against watch them as well. The key point is that he was really into the Raising Remote character, and I think he's really into this Fandango character. So he's he's putting trust in himself, you know, he goes, that's that's my creation. I put my trust

in myself. We're going to push that. Yep. Um. He might look at the rest of the roster and go, yeah, you know, nothing really there. So let's let's make the almighty dollar and we'll worry about it later. And sometimes it just becomes too late. You know, you lose the Batista as you lose the Triple A, because you lose the Seans

and you go, okay, well how do we make these guys? And then another thing I used to say was okay, well we're not going to do that, which leads to you know, say, Miz winning money in the bank. Well, you only have you only have so many keys to like really get a guy over instantly, you know, and one of those things is Royal Rumble money in the bank, and you need to put the right guys in that position to go. Okay, Miz is a mid card guy, Golf is a mid card guy. Alberto del Rio is a mid

card guy. The second you gave him that briefcase or you give him Royal Rumble, the perception of them become main event guys. And there's if you don't utilize those tools, you're really missing out. And I feel like having, you know, the John Cenas go over in the Royal Rumble, you're you're you're really sort of limiting yourself on what you could do because I don't think you could use a Alberto del Rio to get a Dolf Ziggler over right

now. You need that that Chris Jericho, you need that Shawn Michaels to be able to elevate those guys. Otherwise it's just using the boxing analogy. It's it's using those guys to become the next glitch go and then people just go. You know, remember when they had Brett Hart, Remember when they had Ultimate Warrior Man. Those were some stars. Now it's just yeah, you know, it's Dolf Ziggler or it's whoever it may be at the time. Thanks for downloading today's show. Take it to the next level with a

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just a sponsor. I am a customer of Factor Home Delivery Meals. Go to Factor Meals dot com slash wade fifty to get fifty percent off your first box of chef prepared meals never frozen. But there's no prep work, Just pop them in the microwave, and three minutes later you have a meal. No tip, no waiting for delivery, no greasy food, great ingredients, great flavor, great selection for all kinds of diets. Highly recommended. Go check it out Factor Meals dot com, slash Wade fifty great good John.

I want to talk about raw but I have a feeling some callers will talk about that. So let's take some calls and that so people aren't not all too long, and then if they don't cover some territory I want to with you. We'll talk about the remarkable episode of Ron Monday with that raucous crowd at Ison Center. Let's let's go first to Erico two one six. Brandon from Cleveland is with us. Brandon, please stage, you don't don't teach your name and where you're from. We know who you are and where you're

from. What's your question for John? All right? Hey John? Um? I had two questions. My first question was, Um, since it's been a little over two years now, can you finally left the cut out the bat? No? Well, what the plan was, But you know, John, I was actually had you if you weren't late for the show. John, I was actually gonna preface by going this show, that question is off limits because we've covered it before and you get pelted with it every

time. But since I didn't block, since I didn't say that, it's only fair game. Address that however you want, John, But that's it, then we're gonna move on. Yeah, there's there's certain things. Yeah, we'll go back to Brandon. I'm just saying we'll quickly. Yeah, I don't blame anybody for asking that question. Um, but a couple of

things on that one, just so for future reference. One. Um, I think I've I think in my time in talking with you and having the website and all that, I've given away a plethora of kidbit and Um, there's just certain things that I just whatever the reason they be, out of respect for them or just out of respects for not wanting to get in trouble.

Um, I'm not going to go, you know there with the anonymous GM or nexus and uh uh you know, like I said, maybe one day if I decide that, you know, I wanted to do something, then then I have my uh, I have my key piece to build around.

So and also John, I in your in your defense too, Um, you said from the beginning when they reveal it, you'll say if it was something different, and and you've said that it was something different, and uh, it had been reported that it was Triple H and you commented that on a previous show. Um, but it was one of those situations where they didn't play it out as was expected or you know, as it was

expected originally. Um and uh, but you you, having left the company, didn't want to reveal a trade secret that will get you in trouble. Um that was at that scale. And so that's where people got first. But you did say you'd reveal it when they revealed it, and we talked about it, and there was a report that Triple H was going to be the guy. But you haven't gotten into any of the details that you knew, Um, that you knew in terms of how it was going to play

out, because that might be something they want to go back to. So yeah, fair enough. I mean here, here's where I'll say too, is that you know, if it was done and done then then um. But but but I can just say this that there there is probably with both stories, I mean, all that could still come back. So again, you know, I just there's a lot of things that a lot of people know about a lot of things and not everything comes out and I just you know, yeah, fair enough. No, we got that all the way.

So if that's why you're on hold or you're about to email, let's stay away from that just And I say that only because if you're really curious

about it, you can go back to other shows. John has been on UM the John's been on the show numerous times in the last few years and uh, and we've talked a decent amount about it in the past, So it's a it's a good excuse to go into the archives and search for John Primarini either on the PW Torch Livecast app on iPhone or at at PW torch livecast dot com, which is the home of this show, and you can listen to I think every show that we've ever done on that page by filtering

through or clicking through, so you can find other shows with John, especially if you're new to the show, and enjoy what you hear on today's show. I definitely encourage you to go back and listen. I did a what was it about? Was it three or five? I think it was five hours of a torch talk we did originally right John. Yeah, it was

very long. Yeah, and so if you know now when we do the show, we talk current events, but John went in depth for I think close to five hours in a Torch talk that was that was exclusive four VIP members and Torch newsletter subscribers at the time three years ago. And that is all transcribed and all available to listen to if you sign up for a VIP membership and if you're not a VP membership, if you're not a VPP member, as always I encourage you to become one, and you can do so

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right, let's go back Brandon at a fault question of Brandon. Your phone connection is pretty bad against so UM. Once you have your question, I put the back on hold right away. Yeah, my second question. I created a huge push for social media with the w W E YEP and John Up doing social media that I'm on in Facebook, but I just supposed to

carry it. How much I can put un put into any uh you know closed or they get through Twitter or through Facebook or through any of the social media today if they hear enough book the same day or friend and I gotta put you on hold the clicking is just not it's just awful. Um. So we got we got enough of the subject there. Um, but I couldn't. I couldn't take it any longer. Um. Yeah, the real the social media push, John, I'm trying to match up time wise.

It seemed like they really got into Twitter after you left. Yeah, I know that the Uh, I know talent was on there. I know that. Uh. I don't think they were really looking that much into it at the time. I know that. I think they have somebody running it now. I don't know exactly who, but it'd be tough for me to answer that question. I mean, I think he was wondering how much do they look into it when when talents tweeting and stuff like that, Right, is

that probably what he wanted? Yeah, i'd like how much? Yeah, how much does Vince direct what is said? And how much does he react to what's said if it wasn't approved ahead of time, for instance, and someone's maybe that's something that Vince would would not have approved of. Yeah, I don't think that there is that safety net. I think it's just once

it's out there, they deal with it at that time. If someone even spots it and again, that's just your speculation, because I know that the guys were on it when I was there, and I know that it wasn't like it wasn't being policed, and it wasn't It wasn't like, hey, I'm going to send out this tweet before I do, who do I need to run it by. But there's a code of conduct, and that's called common sense, and if you screw up, you're probably going to be in

trouble. That's bread code of conduct. So they kind of hope that people use common sense on there. I haven't heard of an official guidebook or anything like that, but maybe something's come out since some people made some mistakes. But you know, in a way too, John, I mean social media and Twitter accounts for wrestlers, it's almost away for Vincent man to kind of figure out how much common sense some of these guys have, and if they give a bad common sense, maybe that's a good a good way to find

out if he doesn't really want to put faith in them. You know, if like zac Ryder, I think has done himself a tremendous amount of good and then it kind of flipped into some tremendous amount of bad um he's very active. But then when he didn't get a push and started whining, you know, whining and complaining on on Twitter about it, I think it actually went too far and it seemed a little like insubordination, public in subordination,

and I think that actually has worked against his TV time since then. You're probably right. You know, one thing that I was always sort of against UM was I always wondered why, and I might even brought this up on his show. I always wondered why these guys would go on there under their their gimmick and talk like they were a normal guy. You know, you don't see uh, you don't see uh uh. You know, what's his

name, Michael Hall that plays Dexter. You don't see him make a Dexter account and then you know, show pictures of him and his wife out on the beach, right, and you know, if he makes a Dexter Morgan account and he plays Dexter Morgan, whoever it is is running it, and then he has a Micael Hall Twitter and he does Michael Hall stuff, so you know, and I always thought they should have separated that. If you're going to go on there as fan dango, I think you need to be

fan Dango, and I think that it could. It could benefit you, you know, going on there and playing your character and finding your own way to tell stories and to and to further stories. But when you go on there and you take away the appeal of being this you know, this character, and you become a normal person and it normalizes you, I think that it takes away from you know, going in there and escaping reality and trying

to believe this guy is who he is. I totally agree, you know, and like there's some people who are kind of who they are, like Randy Orton, um, you know, like I think he could go on Twitter and be him. I think he's enough himself on TV that he wouldn't necessarily need to separate accounts. But at the same time, I don't think we need to hear about Randy Orton plugging up his toilet at home or the

Regigerator pairman is late and he's pissed off about it. Like, I think it humanizes them in a way that actually doesn't work towards the character that they play on TV. But but if you know, like people, I think with somebody this weekend, I don't know if it's at the Hall of fame or what the context was, but they said Undertaker, please never go on Twitter. You know, like there's just certain people who shouldn't go on Twitter, and Undertaker is the ultimate example of that, you know. I mean,

there's just there's absolutely no reason for I'm never go on Twitter. So well, listen, everybody likes a pat on the back, so I think that it's it's sort of a it's sort of an ego thing for everybody. I'm not even just saying the talent for for anybody to go on anything social media. I mean, I honestly don't care what you ate for lunch, but apparently people think that you do or you know, look, and I'm guilty of it. I'll go on there. I took a picture with Donald

Trump at Rest Flemania. I put it on my Facebook or Instagram, and I I think it went on Twitter and my Facebook too, And you know what, does anybody care except I thought it was cool to tell people that I took a picture with Donald Trump. Yeah, you know, I put his hair. Did he mess it up? No? Did you mess up his hair? Like if I ever took a picture with him, I would just I would like to pretend I would find some excuse to mess with his

hair and then have the picture taken. I don't know what would happen. I'd probably get like, you know, shot by one of his secrets, you know, security people. I was I was trying too hard to get on the Apprentice to one of them. Would you like to be on that

show? Yeah, of course, I think it'd be cool. I think I mean, coming from the reality TV background and being able to establish characters and stuff like that, I think I could find my way finagling my way into the finals of that one quin Milton will go to Kylan, who I know was on hold um. I mentioned the sale for v a few minute ago. I gave the place to go pw Torch dot com slash go VIP.

If you go to that page and you sign up for the monthly v IP option, the the coupon code to get half off through the end of today is lowercase sale number twenty nine lowercase ABC, so sale twenty nine ABC and that's our coupon code again that expires at the end of today. So if you want to get five dollars off half price for a full month of VIP, and here all five hours of John Permerney Torch Talk and access to

the b at the after show. The previous times he's been on, along with that four and a half hour Scott holland Sean Waltman interview I talked about, and the Jake Roberts interview, and the Dixie Carter interview and Matt Hardy and Dustin Rhodes and that's just naming some of them from this year. And the pre Christmas Paul Bear interview. It was a Friday before Christmas, the

late Paul Bear. William Moody was on for a few hours and we did I think a grant told about seven hours with him in two different interviews on in December in August of last year. Some of the favorite interviews, based on feedback from listeners that I've ever done in twenty five years are Scott Hall and Paul Bear, and together it's like twelve hours of content, so definitely

worth checking those up. All right, um, let's go to Kylan has been patiently on hold and get his question, and then on deck two one seven six oh one in seven seven three if you want to talk to John Fimarini x WWE creative team member in twenty nine and twenty ten. The number is six four six seven two one nine two weight. One way that you can help us sustain our schedule of putting out podcasts throughout the week is by

giving us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts. Just go to Apple podcast and look for our weight Killer Prosing podcast and Weight Killer Prosing post show and give us a five star rating. We hope you think we've earned that score with our fast turnaround times and our quantity and quality of wrestling analysis throughout the week. So take a moment out for us and do us favor and give us a five star rating and Apple podcast that helps us on search returns and

helps us grow. And if you want, you can add a few comments about what you like about the programs in the comments section. Thank you so much. Go ahead, Kyland, please go out at your question for John. I have to we just right. Crowds like that if they have to question number one. And being that you are big posters of pleas Jack Swaggers,

I use disappointed by the lower the lower pushes they have received. Thanks Kylin, yep, appreciate it. Uh, John, we were getting some wind I think on your cell phone mic too, So if you if you sense winners, but put your thumb over the mouth piece when you're not talking, and then we'll build out here our guest a little bit better. If if if that's convenient for you. Um, yeah, the uh. I don't know if you got to two questions. I don't know if the listeners

did, but I listened to real closely. UM Kylan want to know did you ever write? And this is a great question. I want to ask you this too. Did did you guys ever write specifically with the town you were in in mind? Did that ever affect your writing? And? Number two, your thoughts on what's been going on with Jack Swager? Um? Okay, the crowds um. To be perfectly honest, I didn't even remember where I was the week before, so for us to go back to another

city, I wouldn't even have remembered what the crowds were doing. Um, something like last Monday. I think you're going to remember that. But UM, I think to an extense yes, um, but but nothing. UM, I mean you're caught. You want to be sure that you know. UM. I think that it would have been horrible to send out Triple H for a promo last Monday. Actually I would I would have paid. I would have paid money to see that. I would have actually just loved to

have seene how we would have handled that situation. But you're right, if I was in a decision making position, um and had WWE's better interest in mine and hunters, yeah, that was a good choice not to put them out there. Yeah, so I think I think to an extent, yeah, it's done. And um And because honestly, I didn't necessarily know what how the crowds would react, even when we would go back two or three

times somewhere. I don't know if that was something that was discussed without me around, But I was never told, you know, hey, I wouldn't do this in this city. A lot of times, you know, Sina would just sort of feel it out specifically for him because of his reactions. May very he would fill it out when he would see who was who was coming into the building or how they were reacting. But no, again,

I could be wrong. I'm just telling you from my standpoint, I never wrote anything based on the town unless it was something significant where we were going to somebody's hometown or we knew it was enemy territory for somebody else. As far as Mizz and Swagger. I mean, I'm gonna say the same thing. Those were two guys I got behind when I was there. I still think that they could utilize both of them. I do not like miss as a baby face. I don't think it works. I think it can,

but not in the way that they're doing it now. He comes across a little John Sena to me as a baby face in that you know, food jokes and um, it's his jokes aren't connecting with the audience, and I think he needs to be a little bit more of if he's gonna be the baby face, almost like a little bit more mature, where maybe the younger kids kind of still go, I don't know, it's the Miz, you

know, and maybe they don't really get it. But the scene an overcrowd could could kind of really connect with him where he can be kind of that snarky sort of baby face that that has fillish tendencies because he is the Miz and he's gonna be an asshole, but you kind of like him now because he's fighting on your side. I think Jack Swaggers put in a great position

right now with that character. Um, I think that I will be Burt at the stake for this, but I don't think they should have put the title on Dolf Sigler, and I think that they could have really had something with a Swagger and del Rio, especially if they put the title on Swagger. Um. So yeah, I mean to answer the question, No, I don't like what they're doing with with either of them. I like what they're I like what they're attempting to do with Swagger, let's put it that

way. I think it could be better and I'm not going to bring up the stake or for it, but I want you to expand on why you don't like that they put the title on Dolf. Was it a timing issue? Uh in or or what? Um? Hmm uh yeah, the timing number one, because um, I think that they had a good story with the with the world title that they could have told. Um I don't I again, I know I'm in the minority, but I don't think Dolf could sell pay per views, and I don't think Dolf has the ability to grab

a microphone and really sell a match or make you hair. I think he does a great job in the ring with it, but I don't think that he can. I don't think he could get something like that over. You know, you're you're gonna now pay for a pay per view, not solely based on Dolf Ziggler selling it, but a big part of it is going to be that. And I just don't think he's that guy to be able to do that. And now, who who's he gonna who's he gonna face?

Who have you built up for him to really have chased the title? Del Rio? I mean, I think del Rio had had a better dynamic, especially just with the story with Swagger. And you know, listen,

if anyone knows it's the work, it's me. And I was sitting there front row at WrestleMania for Swagger del Rio, and honestly, that match felt legit when they were doing the ring introductions, it felt like I was there for a legit fight, just in the way that, you know, they told a story that really made you believe that these two don't like each other. And I don't know who Dolf has that could really that to make people care. I mean, unless they're turn him babyface, um, but I

don't know. Maybe you can help me out. We care for him to really make some money with right now, I do know that, and I reported this in the first and Tortoons later this week that the Dolve Ziggler title change was not that was not in part of the plans until I think Monday and so, and that may have been to make good for Rocket. May have been based on some of the instant reaction to WrestleMania, with a lot

of people thinking it was too corporate to establishments. They wanted to see at least one thing happened at Mania that that surprised them and went against the grain, and nothing did. Punk didn't win, Ziggler didn't win, Orton didn't turn. None of that stuff that people are kind of thinking might happen happen.

So it may have been reaction to that, But I think they did turn Ziggler with the idea being we'll figure out what we're going to do with that title and him him as champion afterwards, but we just need to do something to add a suppos Stressamania spark. But they've got Rybeck now looking like he's going to be tied up with Sena. To me, Rybak, Ziggler might have made some sense as a way for Ziggler to bump like crazy and

try to help Raybeck become a star. But the problem is that is, then do you damage Rybeck by not having him solve the issue with the shield and then go and fight Ziggler and not win the world title, then he sort of starts becoming what heck what Hulk Hogan was when he first tried to beat Nipac Wiggle for the title. All these technicalities and all these things happened, and had Hogan not jumped to the WWF, that could have started working

against Hogan's character. That's going way back in history, but it's happened a lot where a dominant baby face either need to go all the way with him or else he starts looking damaged. So if that's your best option and that the only way to make that work is to have Ziggler lose right away, then yeah, I'm against the title change too, So I am curious who they come up with that fans care enough about to match again. Ziggler. Well, I mean it's obvious that it's it's gonna be del Rio, and

that's the problem with booking that way to go. Oops, you know, maybe we made him stake with Mania, Well you should have planned Mania better. It like you have to hot shot a title onto somebody just to say, hey, we're gonna make up for you, know, you not being happier, us not really giving you anything eventful last night, or oh Rock didn't show up, so we're gonna change an entire game plan because somebody knows showed. I just think that's such a bad idea. Yeah, yeah,

I agree. All right, Well, let's let's go back to the phone lines, and I do want to get the numbers out if you do want to get in line on the phone banks at six four, six, seven, two one nine eight two eight. I'm Wade Keller hosting today. I'll be back on Tuesday with Jason Pablo progressing dot Net. We're here five days a week and sometimes six on Sunday nights after big pay per views, but we're here Monday through Friday. Mondays, we're on live in the hour before

raw, and then Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. We're on at four five thirty Eastern two thirty Pacific time. You can listen to the show's live. You can join in our chat room as we're on the air, and you can call our phone number in East, drop on the show on your phone, or log into the website pw torch livecast dot com and you can also listen on du lay at pw torch livecast dot com or subscribing to

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we appreciate you joining us today. Our guest is John Piermarini x WWW, writer on the Creative Team in two thousand and nine and two thousand and ten. Let's go back to the phone. Lines two one seven, six h one, seven seventy three and three four seven are the next four in line. Now you can subscribe to our VP podcast lineup within the Apple Podcast app

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The Weightkeller, Progressing post shows and podcasts, and daily cast. All those episodes are presented to VIP members with ads and plugs removed, along with v IP exclusives like our post pay per view roundtables, the Weight Keller Hotline, The Fix with Todd and Wade, Everything with Rich and Wade, and many other VP exclusive shows. Just search PW Torch within the Apple podcast app you want seven Please thus figure been where you're from the Hello this is Ryan from

Chicago. Hey Ryan, thanks for Colin what have you got for us? Absolutely, I just wanted to start off by saying that I've been a long time member. I love the site. Um, definitely find value in it. So uh absolutely agreed with what Chris Testimony elset earlier. So absolutely her question, Um, you know, Steve Austin, I know obviously the dream match would be John Cina. I'm sorry, I see him Punk versus Austin at WrestleMania thirty. Um, what do you think would be the biggest money

match for him? And if he did have when you think it could outdraw Roxina? What's the dream match for for Punk or for Austen for Austin? Oh, okay, yep, John, what do you think? I think it's Punk. I think Punk would have been a great h opponent for him even in the Attitude days. I think Punk and Austin could. I think here's the thing too, is you got to get two guys that that really want to sell the match too. And I think those are two guys that are going to go out there and go, look, I want this,

you want this, and they're it's gonna show. And I think when it shows and it comes across that way, people are going to buy into it, and I think that Punk is the perfect guy for a match with Austin if he were to come back next year. UM, I don't think that there's UM. I don't see what they could do with Sina Austin other than say, hey, we're really gonna try to make Sena into the biggest star of all time, you know, And I don't see where. I don't

see that really clicking. UM. But Austin Punk, I think could get a lot of people to care. And I think it could get a lot more eyeballs too, because I think that, Yeah, I think I think people would probably go back and go man, the Rock was cool and I loved following the Rock, but I think that Austin coming back would get I think a bigger audience in the sense that I think wrestling fans would go, Wow, Okay, this was my guy and he's coming back and at least

give it a shot. And I think when they saw that, if they see the dynamic with him in Punk, I think they really kind of jumped back in and give WW that opportunity to grab some of those fans back. And I think Rock kind of did that, But I don't know. I think there's just a different appeal to Austin where I think Rock kind of could

have brought in non wrestling fans. And I don't think non wrestling fans cared to watch Monday Night Raw on the build to WrestleMania, but maybe they check out WrestleMania, and I think they're not going to stay tuned from Monday Night Raw. I think you have the chance of bringing in wrestling fans with stone Cold that will watch the build to WrestleMania with Stone Cold and if you if

you hook him, will stay. And I think Austin's been smart if he has any intent, even if it's just a ten or twenty or thirty percent idea of maybe coming back, because you know, he's I think he's made a nice niche for himself post wrestling with some of the things that he's doing. But if he does come back, and once I pick Payday and hey it's Rustlemania thirty, it's a one off and now that if Rock doesn't come

back, and that's a big question mark. But if he isn't around for Mania thirty, then that gives Austin the spotlight to himself at Mania thirty. Then I think, you know, Austin. Obviously, he and Punk have a dynamic. I think that's the favorite match if you're to put money down. But you know what if del Ziggler catches Fire as a heel and they keep him heal and he holds a title or not for a long time.

Ziggler is a guy who I think Austin would would look good against. I think, just like Punk, if Austin came back, he needed to be with somebody he trusted, who wouldn't hurt him, who would be able to bump for him and make him look good. And that's something that Ziggler could deliver. And then Johnet would also play in two Even more than seem Punk Wood, Austin could be in the position of making a star at a level several above even the Fon Dongo Jericho situation. At least, then you'd be

taking somebody in his early thirties who's just getting started. Punk's already teased retirement. He's already teased He's not going to be one of those guys who wrestles still. Forty might be a leveraging move, it might work in his favor or against him, but Ziggler has not talked like that Ziggler is just um, you know, beginning. So what do you think of that? Yeah?

Uh, two parts on that one. Um, I think when you bring someone in the caliber of stone cold Steve Austin, I think that you I think what you might run into by putting him against Ziggler is is almost showing the difference in in um what's the word almost in um in levels? I mean, I think that I think it would make Dolph Ziggler, I

don't think he can hang with with Austin. Maybe in the ring, but I don't think that if you had to build to WrestleMania with Ziggler and Austin, I think he's gonna drown in there in the ring with with microphones. And uh, you know, to the point that we just talked about earlier is WrestleMania is not about that anymore. It's about getting the biggest buy rate.

And I think that even there might be a chance that they might not even see Pump being able to do that with Austin unless Austin can then and said, I walk punk at WrestleMania. But I think said, if you want to bring Austin in and get Ziggler over, fine, I'm going to make a prediction and say that I don't think by the time that came around that Ziggler is going to be at that level. I think that, again, there's certain guys for certain spots, and I've failed to see Ziggler take

that next step. And I was a big fan of Ziggler while I was there, I was a big fan of him after I left, and I just did not see him turn that corner again. I know everyone has fine, everyone's entitled to their opinion. I might be wrong, but that's just

the way I see it. If you sensed did you sense anything from being a round wrestle any over the weekend that there's any trepidation about pushing Ziggler or were you kind of the would your what you just said stand out as different than most people, or do you think there's a mix of opinions of him, again based on the limited people that you were around. If I said exact thing in a production meeting, I don't think that people would look at

me like I'm crazy. I think that I honestly think the room would probably part size, and I think that you'd have one side of the room going yes, I agree and blah, blah blah BLAT's let's not go that route, and I think you'd have half of the other room saying the same thing. That's pure speculation. I have no idea what anybody has said in the last since I've been there, so I could say that just the way that I've seen Ziggler book, my assumption is that there is probably budding heads back

there. Yeah, yeah, very good, Ryan, you're still on with us. Do you have any follow up or another question? No, I don't. Thanks a lot for taking my call and keep up a great work weight great thanks right, appreciate it. Support us on Patreon starting at four dollars and ninety nine cents get these shows, add free and bonus VIIP content. That's four dollars and ninety nine cents on Patreon, Patreon dot com, slash pw Tworge vi i P that's Patreon dot com slash PW Torch vi IP.

That is the quickest, cheapest and easiest way to support us and enjoy these shows with a streamlined listening experience. The wait Keller post shows, podcasts, and the PW Torch daily casts plus some random VIP bonus content. Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we also have a website, pwtorch dot com daily news updates, editorials, and my live TV coverage covering Row, Dynamite and SmackDown and my live pay per view coverage for ww E

and a EW. Create a tab or bookmark make it a daily stop. Visit us throughout the day every day to keep up on breaking news and more. That's pwtorch dot com. All right, let's go next two US six to one and then as I said, seven seven, three and three four seven on deck six or one ply stage to name and where you're from? Chet doing to day? I doing good, scab? What have you got for us today? And John? I want to ask you this question I heard I just got on Can't League and I got fits the pizzas. Now

put this as a dream match you and I was asking other questions. How would you feel about seeing them Pump taking on the rock that restum Maya the way the rock? Would you know put over seam Pump to you know, get him shot instead of John Tanner because like you said, Russell may was nothing more just to me just seem I mean John Sinner and Triple AI show. And also would the result of rustle Man, What would you have done different? Do you know, make a better rest Man? That's all I

happen today? And Kevin before you go, you know that Pump took on Rock at the previous two pay per views before Mania, and you're asking should they have a third match at Mania next year? No, I'm somebo but his pains restum maya went now. I mean they should have stretched out a little biting. Yeah, and you know they would argue about, you know, seeing Pump putting the title against h Okay Shriek versus Tyler against the US here at his game? Fair enough? Yep, no, no, no,

I'm glad or yeah? So John, would you have been in favor of rock Punk at Mania this year instead of Punk Undertaker? And then I think you want to know what you have done differently in terms of finishes? Um? Okay, So I guess I think it would have been in an

improvement to do um rock Sena or I'm sorry rock prom at Mania. But I think that even the bigger story would have been to h to have um you know, Sina, what I would have done has probably done this and this is off top of my head, so so it might be a little

chopp here. But if you if you put the Royal Rumble on before Rock Punk and you have someone else go over in it, uh and seen it not so much getting screwed out of it, but maybe you know, he eliminates somebody and then that person kind of pulls him over because he's pissed off. So Sina probably could have had it. But someone else goes over in the Royal Rumble again in building someone give that to Swagger. Um. I don't know if he was back yet though, so no he wasn't, but

regardless whoever it is. And then um, you have you know, you tell this redemption story with Sena and Rock and you have you have Sina cost Rock the ww title, and you don't even need any of that if you have some way where Punk can go over Rock um at Royal Rumble. Um. I don't know how you would do it, you know, maybe shield something. Um, that's something you'd have to think out to not take away

from going Rock Sina Mania again. But I think if you would have done that, and you would have had Punk somehow escape with the WWE title and then you go to Mania with his WWE title streak versus Undertakers WrestleMania streak. I think that could have been huge. I would have been at that point put Punk over at WrestleMania m And then you have this guy where okay,

look, let's say Punk says I'm retiring in five years. But my god, the money that you can make for five years with Punk running around saying I beat the Rock, I beat Sena, I ended the Undertaker's street. I told you I'm the greatest of all time. I'm gonna hold onto this thing for four thousand, five thousand days. Try taking it off. I mean maybe at that point you have to align him with the shield so you can sort of really get that across. And then you got the four instead

of the free birds. There was in the sense that you have the world champion who stands above with the other three. But you have the option to, you know, eventually have those some of those three few with Punk down the line. But then here we go. But then think of it like this too. Wave is now you want to go, Okay, WrestleMania thirty, that's the day you want to make your money. Well, how much

bigger now can you get? If it's Punk stone Cold and I'm not even saying Punk has to hold grit until then, But why couldn't he You know, I mean, who do you have that could really run with the title right now? The other I mean, the other option if Austin's not available to play that scenario out. And I know, John, a lot of people wanted that, a lot of people thought in that, and there's still resentment Sunday when it came to Fruition on Sunday with a lot of fans,

they watched that event. It felt corporate predictable, And yes, I think they probably went with a lineup that would draw the most money on Sunday, But did they go with a lineup that would draw the most money for them with residuals for the next couple of years, And a lot of people made that argument. Seem Punk will pay dividends if you if you sacrifice the matches you plan this year, keep the title on Punk and do exactly what you're

saying. If Austin's not available you maybe you have the option then to turn Brock baby face next year and have Brock breakaway from Hayman and be the guy who can finally stop Punk. And maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.

But that's a WrestleMania thirty made event also, and then maybe you get something more out of Brock than you know that the heel who you know, just that he's been so far right, But how long has it been since you've had someone basically holding the company hostage as far as who is going to step

up? And now now you've got someone, like you said, whether it's WrestleMania thirty, I mean, what if what if you somehow can keep right back away from them too, and you have this guy who finally takes the title back, you know, and you now not only have the biggest heal maybe ever in your company and cmplung, but now you've built somebody to be d next John seen up, the next row, the next Stocal. I mean, there's ways to make money today that still holds you big money tomorrow.

And you know, I don't know why it's it's not being utilized that And again it could come down to somebody is saying I don't want Tom to be that guy. And if that's the case, you can't fight it. But you know, it all comes down to your own business to make money, whether you you know, if you run Coca Cola, but you don't drink it. It doesn't matter. You don't bury Coca cola, you don't put out commercials that make Coca cola a little bad. You still want to

make a billion dollars that year, So why not? Do you? Did you sense that bensct Man was ever open to having a lead heel on raw be the champion. I mean because densc Man's formula he grew up with, you know, he grew up with Bruno Sammartino and then Bob Ackland and then came a hulk Coogan, and then his instincts after Hogan left us go to Brett Hart or Lex Luger, and then after that first chance he got Sean Michaels was sometimes a heels, sometimes a face's champion, but then it was

stone cold and the rock oftentimes is a baby face. And then as soon as he could find someone in John Cena, he went with him. And a lot of the time Triple h and Kurt Engel were baby faces in that mix too. Vince likes to build around baby faces and the heels are there to get knocked over like bowling pins. Would he go all out or does it go too much against his instincts and philosophy to actually have the dominant centerpiece be a long term heel champion. What I think happened is he shut goals

with Hulk Coogan and he really put WWF on the map. And I think that when he left, and I think even while he was there, you know, when you know his time is running out, I think they wanted to find who can we recreate this with that can match what Hulk Hogan did.

And I think that's why you you saw guys like Lex Luger be given the shot or I think even they might have even it looks like experimented with with Sid being that guy or um, you know, and and then I think what they went to was, Okay, well what do we have now? Okay, well Sid didn't work out, Lex Luger didn't work out,

Hogan's gone, Um, We've got Sean and Brett. And I think that they saw Brett as someone that could be that could really draw overseas, which he did, and I think that then eventually it turned into who here can can I strust? Who here? I have a I have a locker room full of guys that I don't know if any of them can really be a star solists, who's the one guy that I think can Okay, if Sean Michael, then let's put it on him and run with him. And you know, I know he's a huge star, um, but you know,

I don't think he really did great business. Um and uh, I think that one should become at that point, he became so used to going Okay, I gotta fight in the next baby's face, I got a next the next face to the company that that's what it became was let's just do what we can to make this guy and use these heels to make you know,

the defically what John Cena ended up becoming. But I think that what they need to do, it's kind of reset and build up these heels, whether it's one, two, three guys, and then build your baby face through these top heels. Because again, you walk into Batman and if he beats up the Joker in the first five minutes, why am I wasting another hour and fifty five to see if he's going to beat up the Joker in the

end. I know he's going to do it. And I think that if you've build CM pump and you build for the sake of argument, you have a pump. You've got right back m heels, and then you have right back and you have let's say Dulf Tabler, and you build these guys as just monster heels, and then you build a baby face out of defeating those guys. I think you could recreate something, you know. I don't know

if you could ever recreate Stone Cold Rocker or whole COGD. I think actually just going to happen on it. Don't but you don't have anybody, if you don't have someone for them to de see. Yeah, yeah, John, your reception got a little bit worse in your last answer than it had been. I don't know if you did anything different, but if you can switch back to it was a little bit clear before, but but we could

still hear it just was an ideal. Let's let's let's jump to a seven seven three next and then three four seven, and then we'll probably shift from there to one email question on the free show, and then we'll shift to the VP after show and take some more email questions. And I got a couple notes written done too. In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and ultimately the brand you see today on the Torch VIP Podcast NXT eight

years Back. We'll be taking a weekly look at this page in NXT's early history. Join Ellie Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to the day to track nxts rising talents and why they did or didn't work out, exclusively for PW tors VIP members. Uh seven seventy three, I please stay your name and where you're from from? Hey, boris what have you got for John Field? Are they? I think they're throwing us a bone with um putting, you know, doing

you know, with no character build. They're using Undertaker, which is surprising to me. I want to see him, you know. But you know, I know they're not gonna they're gonna protect Undertaker if she'll get passed. UM undertaking him? Who do they who put him against next? You know, because they don't know how to long term book. Who they put them up against next? Without ruining the Shield for lack of talent? Sure?

Thanks for us, Yeah, it's it's interesting. On Monday's Rage on that Undertaker, Kane and Daniel Bryan lined up against the Shield indicating Undertaker, whoever you know we're all thinking, well he even wrestle WrestleMania. Um, you know, is he too her too beat up? Is he ready to to to you know, retire? Now he shows up the next day and does an angle that sets up a match that people are gonna want to see now, Um, which is Taker, Kane and Brian against the Shield. How

do you book that? And how does the Shield survive that? And then what's next form I I don't think you can book that. I mean, I think it's just get it's cutting closer and closer and closer to Mania every year for Undertaker to uh to to be able to do it, and I think you'd be wasting. Um what Undertaker is there for at this point? Now, Um, unless you're going all in on the Shield, you know,

unless it's unless you'd put the Shield over. But um, I think Sane and Brian are people that can job in that match and not sacrifice the Undertaker, And then you can also um, you know, set up you could There's a number of things you can do with it. With I think it's the you can do to protect Taker but still have the Shield come out

dominant. Yeah, I think you could do something to get the Shield over in the sense that they take out the Undertaker, whether it's in the match before the matcher, whenever it is, and then you have Brian or Kine do the job, and then you've got shield looking great because they can they took out the Undertaker, but I wouldn't waste the Undertaker there, keep them in the WrestleMania, you know, attraction and and build to again one of

the last remaining huge draws that they have. I mean, if you went next year and you went CM punk Stone Cold, Undertaker Sina again, it goes against my philosophy of using those guys to put someone over. But when you have one last chance, it's something you've got to do it. So I think that's the exception to the rule. And you know, and then maybe it kills me to say this, but maybe you haven't seen it in

the street. I'm not sure that it helps John Cena to end the streak at this point in his career, and I know some people will will think that, but I don't know that now is the right time. If seen as the right guy, I don't know that he would benefit from it at all. It depends on how much time you have left with Sena. If you have seen a turn heel to end the street, I think you've got yourself a massive heel. You have to have him turn heel at WrestleMania in

the match. And you know, and if you have again two three years left in Sena again, that's two or three years, you can make a lot of money. You've invested so much in this streak that it would almost not be worth it to not get your money out of it. You know, you have undertake How many DVDs can you put out a Undertaker in the streak? They've probably let in two or three by now when he's not there anymore. What does it mean? Yeah? Yeah, all right, Well

let's go next to three four seven and see three four seven. I say, please state your name and where you're from? Three four seven? All right? With last three four seven? Instead, we'll go to two eight one two A one, Please stay tr naming where you're from? Hell, guys, A chat out of Houston. How you are doing? I doing good? Jay? Thanks for Colin. What have you got for John today?

Well, John, there's not much I really agree with you on as far as a wrestling psychology, but I do agree with you with the whole thing about Dolph Ziegler. You know, he's very good in the ring, but like you were saying about his puma ability, I'd never get the feeling that he's like in a fight. He doesn't really talk about things like a fight. He's more of the Chris Jericho type to me. But my question from my question was actually about um drawing a blank. It was actually about

I'm sorry, ending the Undertaker street. Um. I know a lot of times you talked about having the miss ended or having to him punk in it. I kind of see it like when the New England Patriots a few years ago had that undefeated season and then they rosted at the Super Bowl. You know, no one talked about it anymore. It wasn't a special anymore. Don't you think if they ended the Undertaker streak that it would do a lot of damage to the brand that they built up? Yeah? I agree,

But when when Undertaker's no longer there to build up? Well, and you know, John, I'm on the side of saying, never end the streak unless somebody would really benefit from it. You know, I like, I agree with what you're saying that if you have it, why not use it? But if using it doesn't actually do any good. Um, I think you end up protecting then then you just I don't know. There's something about Undertaker retiring with the Streak intact that says something that says to the fans something

WWE rarely does, which is we care. We did something that didn't necessarily quote draw money because it felt like the thing to do for the legacy, and it's just something sacred that fans can appreciate that w w E didn't just feel the need to end just for the sake of ending it once we knew Taker was going to be done. That's kind of where I fall on it, unless that right guy comes along where it can make a star. But

I just don't think seen a benefit. So I think if the fall else is equal, just let's take a retire with the Streak, because I don't see Sina benefiting in a Frostomania thirty as Takers last match. I think Sina gets himself more over by from because fans kind of know how wrestling works to some degree. I think Sena gets himself over by not using this political cloud to push for a win. Number one. I wouldn't even say that it would be a political move to say put me over on the Undertaker. But

I mean again, let me kind of use it as an analogy. And this one maybe not not not makes sense to a lot of people. But let's say you using the Coca cola thing. Let's say you run diet coke okay, and you go listen, it's the right thing to do for us to come out and go, guys, you drink enough to coke, it's gonna kill you. That's just the right thing to do. Guys. So you know what, that may cost us five hundred million dollars this year,

but if god damn it, that's the right thing to do. You're talking to a guy who was put in a position to say number one, help me make money today and help me make money tomorrow. Why would I want to tell a story that I go, hey, you know what, man, it'll sure put a smile on people's faces that Undertaker didn't lose the streak. I do agree you should not lose the streak just to lose the streak.

But I feel like if there's money to be made or a star to be made out of it, I think you have to do it right. And that's a question. Is that is will that guy present himself If if Vince McManis thinking seen a Taker next year, if that's where they're headed, does take Er stick around one more year and not look like himself perhaps not be into it, because if he was going to retire anyway and retire with the streak, I don't think that's selfish a him. I would say that

to not. I don't think it would be considered selfish to not come back one year later if he doesn't feel up for it physically, just to pass

a torch to somebody who isn't ready. But if Taker's motivated and it really likes somebody who's coming up the roster and thinks will let's just say Wade Barrett for instance, or Jack Swagger, one of those two guys just has a breakout next fifteen sixteen, seventeen months and Taker beats Cina at Wrestomania and the crowd goes nuts intow Orleans and they hug and it's just feel good Rstomania moment.

Whatever the streak is alive, people think Taker's retiring. But if a Swagger or Barrett, or if one of the Shield members breaks out and you can do so whatever, then Taker goes. You know what I do want to I think I can make a lot of money for this company and myself and my opponent. Let's take this guy and let's appro Trustsomania, with the idea being that if he still has this kind of momentum, I will lose to this guy because I respect him that much and he's the right guy to

do it. You can almost have an Austin Brett moment, you know, where it felt like a passing of the torch. So if that circumstance presented itself and Mark Callaway feels like he can do it and he's very up for it, then I'm for ending the streak. But if at WrestleMania thirty it's a Taker Sena, I just think Taker wins and and and then Taker retires because I don't see that being worse for business than seen a winning. Well, then if you have seen a leaving in the in the next year too,

I agree. You know, if you're if you're going to get six matches out of Sina being able to say he beat the streak, I agree one hundred percent. I don't think Undertaker at any time is protecting his streak. I think that he's smart enough to know that it could help somebody. And I think that you can tell that he is going out there year after year when he probably shouldn't because he respects the business so much, because he

wants to do what's right for the company. And I and I think that if they went to him and they said, gosh, we want you to job to Fan Dangel at WrestleMania. I think that if he's out there and said, is this the guy you're going with, and Vince said, yep, he would do it. Yeah, you know so, and and you

know, let me make it clear too. I don't think they should give it to Sina ending the Street, but I do think that if you have two to three years left with Sena and you want to make a big match and you want to do something with that streak, if Undertaker goes, guys, I'm coming back to thirty, find the guy, and and if and if Vince says I need to find the guy and make the most amount of

money. I think if you can turn Sena out of it, and then you can at that point you can then build somebody off of Scena being heal, you know, you can build a new baby face again. You have to put the pieces of the puzzle together. I'm not saying go out there and job Undertaker for the sake of jobbing Undertaker. Let's put the pieces together. Let's make sure it makes money, Let's make sure that it draws people in and end left. Utilize this bullet that we have very good. Um,

let's end the lifecast portion of the show. Here. Will move to the v at the after show portion and answer a few email questions with John Permarini before we go. So VIP members hold tight. If you are not a VAP member and you want to become a VIP member through the end of today, you can get half price out the first month, so ten dollars become spies and you get a full month of access. Just go to Pwtorch

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off. And you can also check out details on the sale on our Facebook page Facebook dot com, Slash Pro Wrestling Torch or on our Twitter account at PW torch, and on our website of course, pwtorch dot com, and on our app, which is free and available to download on all major smartphones. John, do you have anything you want to plug or social media handles you want to give out or anything like that. Yeah, all right, good, so that'll do it for us today. Do you remember when Hulkogan

shocked the world and formed the New World Order? Or when Stone Cold Steve Auston passed down on the Sharpshooter to breath the Hitman heart. I'm Torch contributor Frank Pettianni and I reviewed these shows and many more for my exclusive VIP podcast, Pro Wrestling Than and Now. Together with a rotating chair of co hosts, we go back ten, twenty, even thirty years, review pay per views from top to bottom, talk about where the wrestlers were at the time,

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slash go vip for details and sign up for all right on. As we now moved into the VA exclusive after show, an email question from Jay R is do you think the build up to see them Punk and Undertaker being more about under was being more about Undertaker getting revenge for the Paul Bear disrespect issue

made fans less convinced Punk would be the person to end the streak. I feel if the match were built around Punk selling his championship run and being the best in the world against Undertaker, who wanted to face the best possible opponent, fans might have bought into the idea that Undertaker was going to pass the torch and let Punk go over in the match. That's Jay from Liverpool, by the way, says he's from the same city as Kids on Bridges,

So that's pretty cool. John. What do you think of that, because you've been you kind of complimented that, you kind of complimented the way the match was built up. Yeah, you know, it depends on how they did it. Yeah. I mean, first of all, the way that he got that match was odd, you know, because I think it was just a natural transition to go all right, you know what, you guys

took away something from me. I'm going to take away the most important industry has ever seen, you know, and I think that would have been great. I think, um, I think that that he's right, But I don't think that there was that feeling that Punk would have been the guy no matter what story you told, unless he had the title. And um, so I feel like they they they made they made the best of what was there with how they got into the match. You know, Okay, I

want to fatal four way and now I get to wrestle the Undertaker. What do you do from there? You know? Um, it wasn't like it was. See I'm Punk had a vendetta, gets Taker and he's gonna and he's gonna go after the streak. So I like what they did because it made it took a not so fresh matchup and and and and made it again kind of kind of real. And I love that. I loved how when they tried to make things real and you know what, it pushed buttons and

people can say whatever they want. The fact that they're irritated by it means it worked. So. Um, if it would have been done in the beginning to have Punk set his sights on the Undertaker and take away something that

maybe is even more important than what they took away from him. Yeah, I think it could have worked, but with the way that it was presented to set it up, I think that they did something that was you know, I don't mean to say this in a disrespectful way to Paul Bearer or his family, but they got to use something that worked, you know that that got at least my interest in the match. I'm a big CM punk

fan, so I would have been interested anyways. But they were able to utilize something with the consent of the family, and I think that it worked, and I don't. I don't think it would have worked the way that it was set up. If it was set up differently from the beginning, yes, it could have worked. But still I don't think anyone was buying he was then in the street unless he had the title, and I think that that was even evident by where they put the match on the card.

Jay also asked has Vince or anybody in a senior management role ever addressed how a crowd reacts or doesn't react to certain events playing out in the ring. Have any attempts ever been made to help create a more energetic and responsive crowd like we've seen in the late night like we saw in the late nineties.

Always, I mean, you're always trying to manipulate the crowd. There's there's times that he does things on the fly to get the crowd going, you know, or or bring the crowd down, or whatever whatever way he wants to manipulate you. He's always thinking about that. It's never something that's just, oh, you know what, let's try this. It's constantly he's doing what he thinks needs to be done to get what he wants out of you and to give you what he thinks you want. Next question, I'm gonna

try to hit a few of these before a wrap up here. Rapid Fire Jason three eighteen, a VP member, says John before has alluded to the fact that he was on the team that handled the Legacy storyline. I want to ask about a rod ring the Legacy era US so to speak, where the final segments of Tedbiac stand up to Randy Orton and the crowd was stopping their feet and support of Ted. They were even chanting his name. It was like he had enough of Orton's treating him like crap and he was gonna

snap. And the crowd was right behind him there and then he showed a lot of fire, almost floaming up the mouth, wanting a piece of Orton. But then the next week he went back to beating being Orton's sidekick and showed no spine. Right then and there, I said, moment lost to

him, never get it back, and he didn't. Can John Sleep explain what the logic was behind giving d Bass a great moment to stand up to Orton, but then never doing anything afterwards, Because like you, Wade, I always thought the BOSC had great potential and being that straight up good guy baby face in the midst of madness. Yeah, guy, I really wanted to to make him kind of us to walk away from that legacy story as

as a top guy. And uh, I don't know. I asked myself the same question he asked now, I don't know why we we went there and then we didn't, we didn't follow up. I never really got got an answer to that, and trust me, I wanted to know. And I just think that you know, there's a philosophy of who are we getting over, and that's who we focus on, and at that point Orton was turning baby Face out of the legacy story, and that's who we had to worry about. Yeah, I don't know. I don't I wish I can

answer that question, because I'd like to answer myself. Was that was that moment for Dbaci to deliberately written at the time, it was written to the best of your knowledge, to lead somewhere, And then Vince kind of saw rose headed and just said, Nope, we're going to steer it another way. Yeah, that legacy story was going to be really good. That's all I'm going to say. That legacy story was going to be really good. And and and my answer to your question is the same one as to I

don't know why we didn't do it. Yeah, but it was it was it would qualify as a change in plans based on the oppression you had the week earlier. I don't know if it was so much a change in plans as as it was just a lack of follow up follow I think it was just follow the philosophy it's orton right now. And I thought we could have done something with both of them. I really think that we could have gotten

both those guys over. Yeah, and you know, just like just like the one caller before it said, look, I don't agree with the way you're wrestling philosophy on things you know, people don't agree with me, and I may again maybe I would have been wrong, but I really felt like people were getting behind ted and we could have used that to even do what we wanted to do and still come out with the same outcome, with Orton walking away from that not only getting over but as a baby face. We

have another email question related to Randy Orton. This is Brandon from Michigan of VFP member. He says, is WW only holding out to Randy Orton in your view, just so no one else gets him other contract? He's just treading water and he can't be trusted with a major push because he has two strikes. How do you think Randy Orton's career I thought over the next few years given those circumstances, I think it's a wasted a wasted talent right now.

I don't think they're holding onto him, so TNA doesn't kid am I why would you not utilize Randy Orton? He's over and people care about him, and you've invested money in him. Why wouldn't you have them and why wouldn't you keep him around and keep them in a semi prominent role. I mean, I guess I can understand, again, from a business standpoint, we're going to invest more on you and you might f up again and that

screws us over. So I can understand the hesitation. But I don't think that they're just keeping them just so we can say Cana can't have them. I think they'd keep them because they feel he could still be utilized and people can still be utilized without being the top guy on the card. Yeah. Yeah, they're not just a sponsor. I am a customer of Factor Home delivery Meals. Go to Factor meals dot com slash Wade fifty to get fifty

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marking thoses do not ask. It's just crazy. Didn't they watch it? It was hornswoggle. I thought, I know that's a thing. Well, they want to know what the original plans were and you know why they changed. All right, this is John. I'm sorry, he goes Wade and John. It's Nathan from Sydney. Here it has been said on this show before then Undertaker wrestling only once a year is a drawing card for Dresslemania.

Well, Undertaker wrestling some matches through the next twelve months affect the WrestleMania by rate. So that's part one. Part two. We know Chris Jericho is over with the smart fans or the internet fans, the type of fan that attends WrestleMania. Is there a chance the Route crowd this week we're trying to get Fandango over to make Chris Jericho look good. That's giving people a lot

more credit. That was my answer. Yeah, yeah, like the fans center going, let's cheer for Fandango, so that j Jericho gets credit for making him a star. But I will say that possibly the fact that Fandango looked good against Jericho at WrestleMania gave fans a little more confidence to get behind

him in the way that they did on Monday. Perhaps, yeah, you know, it doesn't I think enough people know just from the stories, even from Whole Coogan talking about Andre passing the torch and putting him over and making him the next guy. I think people understand that for somebody to put somebody else over, they have to endorse them themselves. You could, you could pay a guy enough money to not care, but I think Jericho cares enough, and I think that for him to go, I'll put Fandango over.

He felt like he should it, and I think that if if, if that many people respect Jericho and like Jericho. I think they've said, hey, if Jericho see something in this guy, so do we um. I don't think that the crowd chanting his music had anything to do with anything, but they're just paying the way that they were. You know. It's it's like saying they saw Randy Orton walk into the arena eating a pretzel, so

they put over the pretzel guy. I just think they were a rowdy crowd and fan Dango came out and they ran out of ideas of what's a chance, so they sang his music. What I think now, it's cool, what is your impression. We haven't gotten to the sense d it's no colors asked. I was going to save it for the after show, so here we are. Um. Was what happened on Monday Night? Good or bad for w W E N? Why? Oh? Um? It depends on

what moment. I think that it was good for WWE for Dolph Zigler because I think people watching at home perception is reality, and maybe if they sat there and said, Oh, I really get Ziggler, He's not really the guy, and then they saw that a reaction, I think they went, oh, wow, this guy's over. They've been waiting years for this. I think that during the I think it would hurt Shamus and Orton. Oh, I guess people don't care about them. I others did that though,

and then, um, I can't remember any other chance. But yeah, I think it hurts and it helps. Again, it depends on what chance they were saying and when. And I think it helps Fandango because now I think people are going to go and say, you know what, I'm gonna do that now when Fandango comes out. So I think it. I think it helped a couple guys, and I think it hurts the stock of a couple of guys, but overall as the company, I don't really I think

they liked that that happened. I think they'd rather have that than you're sitting on your ass and not saying anything, which happens in the majority of the city. How about the crowd just entertaining themselves during Orton Shamus. It was that if you had seen that on the script, and again, nobody, I shouldn't say nobody, but it wasn't just common knowledge of a crowd. It was going to be like this. It wasn't like, oh, you know, it's the day after mania. They're always crazy here. It's like

nobody knew to that degree it would happen. But if you saw the script and you saw the storyline they were doing Orton Shamus, it's going to fill a lot of time in the third hour when people's patients already has tested it. They've been there from the beginning, two baby faces against each other. It was that asking for trouble to begin with. If you saw that on

the script, or are Orton and Shamus two pros? And who could have seen that kind of rejection of what they were doing coming, Well, you're you're Okay, you're talking to someone that wouldn't have done that story in the first place, because I think you're insulting people's intelligence. So let's just start from being there and being part of creating a story. And if you put a story out there, you obviously think that it's going to get over and

I don't. I mean, you have two guys who got knocked out by by Big Show, but yet they're bickering with each other of who gets to kick his ass first, who cares go go kick his ass, you know, or both of you go kick his ass? Why do I care that you get a mass with them tonight? How about this Shamus? Right, man, I was wrong. If you want to punch me in the face, punch me in the face. And then Shamus goes, yeah, I'm gonna punch you in the face, and he punches them in the face.

And then you get you know, the agents to come in between them backstage, and you have Vicky Guerrero go in there and go go out there and settle it the way it should be done, and I think he would have got a different reaction. And then on the flip side of that is you could have just had both these guys, go, I'm going after Big Show,

you know. I mean think think. I think sometimes people try to too hard to tell an unreal unrealistic story, and I don't think that their mind is set on telling an unrealistic story, or I think they're just forcing a story instead of thinking in what would actually really happen, you know. I mean, I think that Shamus got convinced by Orton that we should put Big Show on the team. If you already know Big Shows an asshole, then why do you I mean, I could go off on a twenty minute

rant here. I think that it should have just been done differently. Instead, you're having them, You're forcing a match on the crowd, and I think that that's the way that they took it. You're forcing this on me, and we're going to react accordingly. We don't want to see it, so we're going to entertain ourselves. And I don't know if you knew, John, but at the event they did ring introductions and Shamus and Orton were bickering, and I think this actually played into it because it was a smart

crowd, a perceptive crowd with a lot of energy. They went to a commercial break and they turned the lights down, and Orton and Shamus just stood there and did nothing. And then when the red light came back on, they turned the spotlight back on. Orton Shamus started bickering again, and I think the crowd looked at that and said, that's just tude aad you guys like it. Totally broke the authenticity, insulting your intelligence. Yeah, you do that to anybody, they will turn on you. Yeah. So I

think that's one of the unknown. I mean, maybe they would have done exactly the same thing, but that might have made them go, screw you guys. You're putting on a show force and you can't even bother to care about us. You're only caring about the TV audience. So exactly. Yeah. I saw at a at a TV event once way. I think it was a SmackDown taping. Swagger was came to the ring and did his little thing where he like jumps in the air with his arms out little is there

an official name for that, the airplane hop. I don't know what does he do that he puts his arm well, he doesn't anymore, his new character doesn't put his old character getting the ring and he kind of do a couple a couple of hops with his arms extended. Everybody has the running in a circle with his arms out that. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking of. Yeah, so he did that. Yeah, oh well he did that. The cameraman walks up to him and whisper something to him and basically says,

we didn't catch it. You need to do it again. So he had, he did it. He stopped, he's playing to the crowd, the cameraman to do it again, and he listened, and then he gets

up and he does it again and it was just awful. It's like doing that for the TV audience is not important enough to expose to the live crowd that this guy is just a puppet with strings being pulled by somebody in speaking to the camera guy in the back, it was it was like just one of those kind of come on, you know, think about the live crowd type moments. It took me out of the moment again. Yeah, you know, and the crowd is important too for what is presenting on presented on

TV. Um. Yeah, that has to be very careful, very careful with everything that's the person sees on TV as your product, and the audience is part of that, and he has to be very careful with how you treat them, because if they turned or if they react the way you don't watch, it's gonna it's gonna come across that way on television. YEP. Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me. Jason Powell hosts

him to three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom podcast. Each week, he'll hear the latest news and analysis for me and my team at pro wrestling dot Net along with other pro wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast features long form interviews with notable names in the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe an it tune, Stitcher, downcast, and all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at pwboom dot com. Once again, that's pwboom dot com.

Quick question from Scott Briller. Is the Taker Punk issue over with? Or could you see Taker in Triple H teaming up against punk in Brock in a tag match combining two of the singles matches at Mania Share put it on SmackDown. I don't care about it? And why not? Where do you get out of the tag match? I mean you have a rock, right, I mean put them again someone and tell a story. You're gonna get eyeballs because of them, you devide the eyeballs that come in Brock. Why would

brock Lessner team with anybody except cmpunk Um? You know you did you say CM punk I'm sorry, yeah, yeah, it would so would be a rematch. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay, that's m I uh okay, in the sense of brock Lessener again, I think he's better used to tell a story with. Yeah, I can see Paul Hayman go to him. From a business standpoint, this is a great and I'm talking about character, you know, teams punking, you know,

blah blah blah blah blah. I could see that happening. But I don't think. I think you're wasting again, especially Joe. Okay, so you're staying Triple H and uh so basically combined us by the name right now? Yeah, yeah, What do you get out of it? Yeah,

I don't. I don't. I don't know other than it's a chance to see Undertaker against brock Um, you know, you know, and so you sell that notion if you're not, if you don't have plants for that at Mania, because it's Punkin Brock against Taker and Hunter, and you also have a chance to see Hunter against Punk one more time and a rematch of the two big matches that and if it's a means to an end, where then you also maybe tease dissension between Punk and lessner um I who knows? Who

knows? Maybe it's used as a vehicle to get Triple H into one more match with undertake rot Mania, although I think Hunter knows better than that. Oh my gosh, is there were people that want to see that? I don't think so. But Hunter, Hunter and Hunter in the audience, the imagines exist. Yeah, all right. Final question VFT member East Coast Jam. I would be curious for John Stott's on the style of comedy WWW presents. I consider it, with all due respect, to be embarrassing, embarrassingly

bad. Uh. Some comic moments, such as the d X Reunion era tops the list among the worst television I've ever seen the comic. Speaking of Triple H, the comedy is a big part of the reason I'm embarrassed to have raw on TV with friends over and I think it contributes to the uncool

reputation of wrestling. Why has wwb's tone definiti's been so persistent over the years when it comes to this element, and I'd add to it, John John Cena too seems somewhat completely oblivious to how dorky and I think interproductive that the cheesy, corny sensing humor is. You know, the only way to really figure out why it's still being done is because no whoever connekes the decision to

cut it is doesn't believe that it's not working. I just really feel like they want WWE to be more than a wrestling company and being be able to hold its own, you know, against and I don't know why, but American idol crowd, SNL crowd, wrestling crowd, comedy crowd, drama crowd. I think they want the same people that tune into The Walking Dead to like WWE. But you that you also, you can't do that. You can't you can't be not that good at a hundred things, be really great

at one thing. The Walking Dead doesn't just take little little little stabs at comedy very little, you know, but it works because if they do it, it's done right. And WWE needs to go look for a wrestling company.

There's enough people out there for us to make a ton of money and sprinkle in a little comedy, sprinkle the in a little drama, sprinkle in a little um whatever else you want to do, you know, a little TNA and I mean boobs and asks, you know what I mean, like, sprinkle that stuff into this product and make sure that every time you do it it's done right, and and people will people will accept that more.

And I feel like you're losing more people than your gaining because let's say I like Saturday Night Live and I go, hey, if you tune into WWE, you can see backstage skits. I mean, it's just like SNL And I go, oh, all right, I'll check it out because SNL is not on Monday night. And I tune in and I go, okay, this is bad and and and that audience that you were trying to get is not coming back and they're not going to talk very highly of you. So

losing that you're not gaining new people. Yet you're losing like this person who just wrote in and said, this is an embarrassment. And I think that philosophy is the people that watch are just going to watch. And if you left, that means that you just came around as a fair weather fan. Anyways, and it's somewhat true. I think that I've talked to a lot of people, including friend, that will sit there and complain about the product and then I go, hey, what are you doing April seventh, I'm

ordering WrestleMania. Oh okay, Well then why would anybody change? So the core audience is going to stay, and I think they're trying to bring in new eyeballs, but they're doing it the wrong way because they don't have the right people there to accomplish that. And I think that they to answer that

question to make a long answer longer they feel like it's working. And I also think maybe the short answer is Vincent Man has no life outside of WW and he has a very quirky sense of humor, and people write to that in order to please him. It's an indulgence, an indulgence of sorts for Vince. Yeah, I agree, I agree, Yeah, yeah yeah.

Anyway, John, great to have me on the show. I appreciate your insight and your opinions as always, and uh, we'll have to have you back on sometime down the line, especially when we have another big week like this one. Thank you very much for having them. Excellent Thanks to all the v ibeers for joining us and for yours, and on that note, I will sign up for today. Hey everyone, PW Towards Assistant editor Zach Heydorn here to remind you to pick up a copy of my new book.

It's called Stunning the Wrestling Artistry of Steve Austin. The project takes a long look at Austin as an artist in the wrestling ring. Analysis starts from his early days in the USWA and then wraps up with his match at WrestleMania thirty eight against Kevin Owens, all with analysis on what worked and how his art worked to connect with fans. The book is available for pre order right now from the team that brought you the Shamrock Barography Hybrid Shoot. Pre Order copies

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