WKPWP - Tuesday Flagship: Keller & Powell talk Bloodline developments, should Punk acknowledge behind the scenes controversies on Collision

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bring you the Wade Killer Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for the weekly flagship talking current events in pro wrestling. All right, Jason, The bloodline storyline took some major twists and turns at Night of Champions and then SmackDown Less Friday.

They pop a big two point five plus million viewership number on Fox, and they even are promoting it heavily on Raw, which you know, we didn't see a lot of, especially you know, after the brands but or the redraft, we sort of thought, well, they'll be less less of it. But they're cross promoting on Raw SmackDown. I think they kind of our shark that smells blood in the water, in the sense of, we

got something good going here, let's make sure everybody knows about it. The acting, I think the performances of everybody last Friday especially was so good. They're onto something really special here, and I think they know it. I don't recall a storyline like at this level in a very very long time. Well, if you can recall one, please let me know what it was. Well, i'd think wrestling advance. You know, wrestling changes over time, so there's nothing that has this much acting. Like you know, is

the Bloodline the best faction in wrestling history? Absolutely easily, Yes, unless you personally have a favorite. That's different, you know what I mean. But I think if you step back and go, is are they doing better work than the Four Horsemen? Well, I would say Rick Flair is a better inner, is a better promo interview guy than anybody in that group.

And I might argue Paul Hayman included, but it's it's close. But the dynamic between everybody in the interplay as good as Flair playing off Atli and Arne was, and Arne was really good and totally played his role really well, and the rotation of others this is a This is a much more compelling dynamic, and it's changing, and it's more of a soap opera. The nWo, of course, captured a moment in time and Hall and Nash and Waltman

and Hogan and everybody else who got added and subtracted. That was great, and that'll be in the conversation as the best faction. But to me, I mean, whatever individual part is better in another faction collectively this bloodline is setting a new standard. I don't think wrestling fans will want to admit it, but this is the ultimate thumbs up for writers, It really is. This is not let's go out there and wing a promo. Let's let's work on a promo in the car and go out there and do it. This

is television writing, and it's it's very good television writing. It's not an endorsement for all things, you know, using creative team members for everything or anything like that, but I think people no point of tend to need to stop and acknowledge the fact that that's what this is. It's a very good version of a creative team or creative people doing their part, and it's not

just the talent that's cutting promos. And it's interesting, you know, because it comes at a time when all this started not long after I think many of us were like, thank goodness, aw is going to get rid of it, this creative approach to things and have wrestlers cut their own promos. And I still think the answer to everything lies somewhere in between the two models. But I think this is just extremely well done and I don't think that

it would be happening if it were. This couldn't happen in any other era before. Now it's just good. No, I agree, And in defense of those who are against the writers, and I'm much more open to a pro wrestling infrastructure that includes writers than some people. But sort of like a brand split, Well, you got to do the brand split well for me to endorse it to world titles. Well, you got to do it well for me to not at least hate it. UM. So the writers have

to be good at what they do. But the this is Paul Hayman, Roman Reigns and the USOS and Sammy was helping UM and Solos to code Michael Michael Hayes. And then I know Paul in a I don't know his GQ or where it was for it or something. You did an interview with them and he named one specific writing team member UM who was integral in this too.

And they collectively work hard on this. And you know, I've used the Young Bucks as my example, UM to contrast, which is, you know, I think the elite with Kenny and Hangman in the Bucks, if they put if they had one or two people off camera who were helping, and then they spent as much time and mental energy and studying the business and and and putting just like a density of time elbow grease throughout the week into what they're going to do each week. On Dynamite they could be doing.

I don't They're not gonna be at the Bloodline level probably, I mean, I've just put it lightly, but they could be doing a lot more. But I don't get the sense that that's what's happening with them and so and this isn't to pick on the Bucks and Kenny. They have different strengths. Everybody does, but you should the Bloodline have sort of set the bar high in terms of they're not just showing up and winging it. You know, Steve Asson would make the case, you know, five years ago when I

would do podcasts with them a lot. You know, oh, call it in the ring. You know, everyone should know how to call it in the ring. And I think that's good. But we are kind of past that point from a TV production standpoint where that's enough. Like I noticed last night on Raw, it's like, why are you showing her from behind? Oh? Because she's about to grab someone's leg running the ropes. That's why the camera was right there. Everything is planned out to give you the best

camera angles, and that's what has refined over twenty years. Like this is a longer than that, but they really started knowing the beats and the rhythm of when to take commercial breaks and where camera guys should be and shouldn't be. That stuff is a pretty well oiled machine right now, production wise, And it was only a ew really coming along that made wwwe's polish stand out even more because you realized how slowly over time they got really good at what

they do. Now we can argue there's some things that offset it, like jigglie cameras, announcers saying it's gonna be a title change, giving away that it's not the new thing that I noticed last night. I've noticed before, but they did it last night, and it's newers giving credit to the losing wrestler or team right about right before they're gonna lose. So they'll go like, oh man, they put up a really good fight in this match. No matter what happens, you got to give them credit, and like,

okay, thirty second, coundo until they lose. So there's things they do that by rote that are just like, no, it's too predictable. But there is a better product when it goes well, when you put the kind

of time and creative energy and effort into planning things out. And clearly that's happening with a bloodline, and it's not with a Bucks and Can and again, and I'm picking on them because like they have different strengths and everybody does, and I'm not there's not a lot of people who could be at the

beloved line level. But I am curious how much better would AWB if they did have a really strong team on the creative side working with the wrestlers to polish what they do more fason, I think they would benefit when this whole concept of aw and not having creative team members and all of that started. I just remember talking about it probably on this show and other shows that you're gonna tell me, if you come across somebody who has all the tools except

for one, they're not a good promo. They're not going to come up with good stuff on their own. Oh sorry, you're on your own. No, of course not. You need to bend for certain people. And again, I think the answer is somewhere in between. I think that in WWE, the talent, many of them are overproduced and they get handed. Yeah, I mean we all know sucker and suck it ta and just some of the awful things that we've seen over the years. I do think it's

because aw's come along. Not only has it made things the Polish stand out, but it's also made WWE raise their game. I think they. I mean, it's night and day now with Cody Rhodes compared. You know, you look at what he was doing in AW and the struggles that he was having, and now he's in that system. Right, assume he still has quite a bit of input into what he's doing, but I think he has people that he has to get things cleared with, perhaps or he's bouncing ideas

off of people. People are giving him the feedback that he needs to eliminate certain things that are going to cool him off. And yeah, I think that AW would benefit not even I mean, I'll take it a step for it's not just the elite, because I'm with you on that, I think they should be doing more. But I also look at Blackpool Combat Club and I feel like they could benefit in some way. Moxley is doing his thing. You know, Danielson doesn't ever sound truly believable as a heel, and

I think that's an ongoing issue. He's fun, but I don't really sense like this is some diabolical guy, and it could somebody, a producer or creative forces help bring that out of him somehow, someway, I don't know. Claudio stands there, Muda stands there, and I'm embellishing a little bit. I mean, they say a few words here and there, but it's

not like there's this great dynamic between them either. It almost feels like whatever is there is kind of left over from the Daniel Brian character that we knew and the gosh, I've already forgotten his name, the Dan Ambrose character to some extent, you know, Moxley' is a expanding quite a bit. But I do think some of those characteristics still live on, and that's why they stand out a little bit more than maybe. I mean, Claudio never really

had a persona in WWA. He was too Swiss. But yeah, I just feel like if boy, if you put the right people with them, they're willing to listen. I think both factions are examples of groups that could benefit from just having different people, different types of people involved, And I

think expanding what they do with creative and that's great. I think more than anything I eat have you need somebody to work with even more so than this the storytelling aspect, stretching things out, knowing when to hit high points and just different things rather than what we're getting from them. It's been better, but it's still the storytelling is a week spot for them and just getting repsent,

Like, I mean, you're not going to be great. And I do wonder not to get into the psyche the young Bucks too much, because it's possible they're like, screw at Tony con pulled the rug out from our creative process after just a few weeks, and we're just gonna, you know, give him good matches but nothing else. I remember halland Nash telling me

when Bishop fired Waltman Sean Waltman to get back at them. Scott and Kevin Bolt told me in torch Stock interviews, well that's when we stopped doing anything extra and just did the bare minimum because we you know, Eric did that and we resented him, and so you know, we showed up for working on our paycheck, but we weren't as involved in trying to help steer him in different directions. Some would go, well, that good because they were

sabotaging other people. But my point is they're at a two was screw it? And I do wonder with the Bucks with their relationship with Tony, and you know, they're not going to share until they write a tellout book in fifteen years if they do that. But I do wonder if part of them is like, we're not going to go that much work for Tony, you know, like I mean, we like him, we like him all enough, but he kind of screwed us over and we don't feel part of the

team. We're not going to do that. I don't know. I have no idea, never heard that's the case. I throw that out there more as a sort of caveat to criticism of them for not having it in them. They just might not want to go to the trouble because they're financially set, and if Tony doesn't want it and has rebuffed it, then maybe they

just sort of disconnected a little bit. That doesn't change my opinion, and I think we saw a glimpse of it last Wednesday with Don callis that there's so much potential in aw that is untapped with more granular attention to detail, more time in the creative process, and we're seeing the result of it in

WWE. I also think that Jericho Appreciation Society is a close we've seen to the things we're talking about that are strong with the bloodline, the dynamic with especially like Daniel Garcia when he was not comfortable with Chris Jericho and some of the things that was being asked of him, and we got some subtle acting and little responses where you were rewarded as if you were for paying attention, and unfortunately they just had a hot baby face on their hands and then they

just turned him heat a laboratorily again and kind of ruined it. But the journey that he went on, as I recall, it was on the higher end of a w in terms of interpersonal dynamics within a faction coming across on TV that felt well planned but also well acted. Yeah, yeah, I mean, do you think there's a chance that we start to see a different approach with Collision or are you kind of anticipating and more of the same.

I have no reason to believe it's going to be different with Collision or better, but I don't rule it out either, because when you're adding two hours of primetime programming, and it sounds like they got to deliver good ratings because the next TV deal is going to be in part based on what happens to viewership to Dynamite when there's now two more hours a week and how Collision does on Saturday nights because it's this was not part of some big grand billion dollars

five six year deal as had been talked about, And if you do the math, it makes sense that they would get a billion, five year, billion dollars plus deal when you look at what they're getting paid now, what is getting paid, what the marketplace says, and if you add two more hours to it plus some content on Max, it made sense that they would get that big deal. Well, they didn't announce it. They didn't get it Tony concept in the last medi Q and A that you know the deal.

The Collision deal runs as long as Dynamite, which is the end of this year, plus a one year option. So they've got something to prove. So when you say, well, will they do things differently for Collision, maybe maybe there's a maybe this is a kick in the ass because demo ratings are down, Viewership is down now they're going to water it down even more with the new show, and Tony's not talking about it explicitly. He is admitting that he's trying to be vague purpose about a number of things,

and more power to him. Well, I'd say more power to him on not talking about things lawyers say he shouldn't and allowing wrestling fans who want to know everything ahead of time, allowing them to be surprised by things on TV in that. In that, in that scope, I'm okay with it.

There's other things where I wish we got more. Um So, I would say that pressures on to make this work, and I would argue, if I were within a w one of the things that we need to do is add more creative minds and put more time in on creative on these shows. Mike Mansuri is from WWE has been really pushing for changes, and I've heard good things about him um in what he wants to do. And Chris Jericho's

been been everywhere, he's seen it all and he's got Tony's ear. But they just need more people putting in more time on creative and um maybe maybe that will show up, So I don't rule it out. I don't rule it out. I think we'll see some things with whatever see him Punk is doing, he's gonna I think he's gonna be heavily invested right in his own creative and so that's a right mind you're adding to that mix. How involved he is and what others are doing remains to be seen. I hope we

see something. I just don't need another two hours of mostly matches and in some cases very minimal build up. I think we need some real storytelling. They need hooks. I always talk about it, cliffhangers between the shows, just something when you know if you can struggle with that. Obviously, if there's going to be if there's not going to be a brand splitter or I'm sure if there is a brand split, then it's a little tougher to hear

the cliffhanger type things. But you know, I would assume the champions still float. You can do something like that occasionally, just something to get people in the habit or get excited. Like you leave Wednesday night, man, I can't wait for Saturday instead of Oh, here's this whole other universe of wrestlers, and I'm as he Saturday, I'll just stick with Dynamite, Aloha, Torch Faithful. This is Kelly Wells, host of PWT Talks and XT

every Thursday. You can hear me in My Game of Idiots, Tom Stoup, who shares thoughts from the live tapings, and Torch recapp or Nate Lindbergh as well as a rotating cast of guests cover the matches and events in NXT live on USA Network. Search PW Torch in Apple Podcasts or your podcast app to subscribe or listen on demand and see the entire PW Torch Dailycast schedule at

PW Torch dailycast dot com. Cheers. I'm curious with Sampunk getting more responsibility, what he comes up with and does he have people he leans on for creative input? What do you do? You have a sense of his philosophy on the business booking wise, I think he is more of an old school pro wrestling type and I think a Steel will certainly have input even if he's

not at the buildings. And I think that you go back to what they were doing and Ring of Honor. I know it's been a long time now, but I think that's kind of his sensibilities, is that that approach with some of the Summer of Punk and different things he was doing, and obviously he's evolved along the way with the career in life that he's had. But I don't think it's wacky sports entertainment or anything like that. I think it's

going to be more gritty pro wrestling. Yeah, So I'm excited to see what he comes up with, what he does when given some power or some influence or some input at least, and I'm curiously what what Tony Khan does with it. Jason, Let's actually we have an email on CM Punk and I want to since we're talking about them, I want to get to that, and then I actually want to go back to the Bloodline. I want to talk about the potential matches for Roman and the timing of that. And

we got King of the Ring and other things talk about. Let's pause and just kind of formally introduced the show here at this point. This is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast for Tuesday, June six, twenty twenty three.

I'm Wade Keller, the editor, publisher, and founder of Pro Wrestling Torch, the long running weekly newsletter documenting professional wrestling happening since the late nineteen eighties, including As mentioned earlier, some of the longest insider interviews done with some of prosting's biggest names, including Scott Hall, Kevin Nashol Coogan, Steve Austin,

promoters, bookers, WWE writers, and more. They are available with a VIP membership in our newsletter archives transcribed as torch Talks and in our podcast archives. So go vi ip if you haven't yet. If you're interested in diving into a rich library of fascinating insider information, including those long form torch talks, predating and wrestlers hosted and or interviewed on podcasts pwtorch dot com slash

go vi ip for full details. You can get the full library access to our main website, paying with credit card, debit card, or PayPal. The other voice you hear on the show so far is Jason Powell from Pro Wrestling dot Net and the Pro Wrestling Boom podcast. He has been joining me on the flagship for well since the beginning of us doing podcasting, and he now joins me every three weeks and it is great to have him. We have a lot to talk about. Jason, how's it going. It is

going well. The weather is kind of improved. I don't. Depending on your perspective. When are you a heat guy, I'm a don't complain about the weather person, because no matter about it a lot. So when you actually get it nice and you gotta think it's prass, you know absolutely, Like you know, everybody thinks it's the hottest or coldest it's ever been at the time of year that they're miserable, and like, you know, I looked it up and it's like it's super hot and early two and two years

ago it was even hotter. This is exact same week. So like I'm just everybody around me knows I'm not a fan of being a victim of the weather and complaining about it. I know it's small talk sometimes and sometimes it's it's scorching you know where sometimes it's you know, twenty degrees below. I mean I get it in that in that sense, but um but to me, it's like, just go enjoy the outdoors, even if you're gonna sweat a little bit or be a little cold, distress appropriately take your shirt off.

Damn it, there you go. I just read an article, Um I think was it in I don't know what came up on my phone, So I just clicked on it. Um, it's that when when should you take your shirt off in public? For me, the answer is never, Well, that's what I say. The answer isn't. When is it appropriate? The question is who? And so all you gotta do is walk up to somebody and go, should I take what? Would you? Would you

mind if I took my shirt off? And if they gag a little bit or they laugh the your answer is no. But if they look up and look you up and down and go, yeah, take your shirt off, then you don't take your shirt off anywhere you want know anyway. So when I say addressed appropriately, I mean appropriate for the weather, but also appropriate for the circumstances like if you're if you're working a subway and the air conditioner is broken, don't take your shirt off while making sandwiches. You gotta you

gotta tough out. Yeah, that would not be a good thing. By the way, I do blame you for the writer's strike. Oh why Oh, because I said I want to catch up? Yes, yes, yeah, all the talking about wanting. I think some network executive or whoever's in charge of this heard you and said, let's let the man catch up. Let them strike, you know, what I'm I'm seriously, I'm fine. It's like if they stop making movies for seven years, then I you know, I could catch up on all the movies. I'm behind one too.

It's just too much. Stop me. I'll support the writers, obviously, but I get what you're saying. Good because I have fallen so far behind and stop writing books, wrestling books and otherwise. I've like hundreds of years of books to catch up on that I want to read. I walked through my house. I have bookshelves full of books. But I was excited to read when I bought them, and I can't. Haven't had time to read them. So stop writing books, people too. Just let's pause all create

of endeavor so I can catch up. I think that's fair. In fact, there's a lot of episodes of Impact I haven't watched. So if if wrestling goes on strike, you know, I can just start a couple of years back on Impact and work my way through while everything gets sorted up. Oh, I'm gonna say, oh, we're talking modern impact, because if it's TNA no no, no, no, put yourself through that. No

no more more modern impact? U Yeah? Stuff there? Yeah, I mean I haven't watched much UFC compared to you know, in the earlier years, So I mean if UC shut down, I'd be like, oh, I'll just go on the go on the network and march through all the shows, or have Todd Martin tell me which ones to skip and watch. Anyway, it's a it's a it's an embarrassment of riches when it comes to entertainment options. And now Apple has come out with this this Apple Vision Goggle thing.

Did you see that yesterday? Jason, I've saw it. I really haven't dove in to really get a field for it yet. I mean it's cool. It's like thirty five hundred dollars and I know people were like, what why you can't charge that much for that? It's crazy. Like I watched The Reason Asian last night while doing some work, and it's like it's a computer and you can have like prescription lenses added to it. It's not attached your iPhone like the whole computers built in it. You can just walk

around u if you it follows your eyes. So if you look at something in your augmented reality vision of your of your room, if you just look at it and then you just touch your fingers together. It's like double clicking on a mouse, but it knows where you're looking. So if you look at an app in this augmented reality through the goggles, but you can also

see the room you're in at the same time, which is crazy. You can like, look at oh, I want to launch maps, and you look at it, and the goggles know you're looking at it, and then you tap your fingers together and it launches maps. Marcus Brownly did a review of it, and he was just like, this is crazy. It's like it's like I'm not amazed by magic much, but this is like sorcery. It's magic. So it's pretty cool. So we have a whole new thing

to explore. In other words, if if all creativity shuts down, although you know, I'm just gonna go to the Apple Store play with it. I'm not going to buy it. There you go and people like if you're up in arms about the thirty five hundred, that's for the people that have to be first, just exactly. The price will go down. Yep, yep. I mean then that's that's how tech works. But it is it is going to bring more people into the Apple Store because people are going to

want to put those on and uh and see what it's like. They it seems like they really did it, did it right Now that I learned more about it, I'm not sure if someone gave it to me for free that I would use it, Like it's not like what I needed in my life

but what they have done. But maybe I would. But what it's actually what's cool is they show people on airplanes, which if I flew a lot, I might consider it like or tell my boss to buy it for me, because you can sit in an airplane and then have this essentially large screen movie experience with uh, you know, Bob that your air pods in and it looks like you're in a movie theater watching a big movie and you can turn your head to the left or to the right and the screen just follows

you back and forth. So it's just like this immersive experience for like traveling. Wow, Yeah, that's cool, all right. Apple's not our sponsor. Factor Meals are, so go get yourself in shape with some good high density, delicious, high nutrient density delicious radio microwave meals. They're sponsor Jason nice Shot, so head to Factor Meals dot com. Slash Wade fifty. That's factor meals dot com slash fifty and use code Wade fifty to get fifty

percent off your first box. That's code Wade fifty at factor meals dot com slash wead fifty to get fifty percent off your first box. With some podcast memberships, there's a complicated system of having to enter a username and password in advanced settings, and it works on some apps but not others. That's not the case with pw Torch VIP membership. We now have a slick setup where you're a single click away when you go VIP from having your podcast feed automatically

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v IP membership it's more convenient than you realize. Get all the benefits of vapp membership, all the VP exclusive podcasts and these shows with the ads and plugs removed with a VIP membership pwtorch dot com slash go vi ip. It's quick, it's easy, it's convenient, and we think it's worth it. Pwtorch dot com slash go vi ip back to back to us. Let me read that that CM punk email. Julian from London says, I have for actions to sempunk turn out to be negative. Can you be turned into Aw's

top heel or would it be the wrong type of heel heat? I'd love to hear your thoughts. What have you made of the way Tony has unveiled the seampunk announcement over the course of three weeks more probably not by design but by necessity, which was initially we have a new show next week. It's going to be a United Center following week. Oh see, mpunk is gonna be there, and the crowd reactions have been mixed for Punk, some cheers

and some booze. It seems like fans have taken sides. Imagine that Jason

polarized a polarized fan base. Is that something where Tony's in trouble because people are gonna go I'm I'm a collision guy or I'm a dynamite guy like you, you're sort of choosing the elites, the Elite show or the Punk show, and not a like sort of principle they only watch one or the other because it's baked in that they are rivals and or is are enough people anti Punk were actually just go Pat and have him go heal and he actually might

be more interesting and he might have more event genuinely, and we've seen his kind of wild eyed, crazed meltdown zone. If he can get into that mode more often like he did at the media Q and A after all out last year, he can be He can be a great heel. So where are you on Julian's question? Give him a muffet and see what happens when

it comes to the heel work. But it sounds to me like you would really like there to be maybe teams of five having an elimination match for brand supremacy at AW They might end up in that in that place, but no, please please, no, no color code of T shirts. Yeah, it's an interesting one. I think so much of it hinges on what Punk says, how he handles himself in the initial promos I think right now.

I mean they were in San Diego. I don't I'm not great on California geography, but I consider it young Bucks country to some extent, just being in California, with them having rich there and the crowd was mixed, maybe it's actually encouraging that it was more of a split reaction than unanimous booze for Punk. I'm not sure I like that AW didn't hide from it. I was kind of worried we're gonna get that WWE treatment where you hear the booze,

but they only show the people cheering. It started that way, but then they started showing some almost down people too. I think that the tricky part for AW right now is that if you're going to have the Elite and CM Punk as baby faces and you can't get them to at least coexist on camera for fifteen seconds to pretend that everything's all right, then fans are going to choose sides, and it is limiting your baby face appeal if that happens.

So I don't sit here and say, well, you have to turn Punk heel because of it, because I think you just as easily could have turned the elite heel because of it, and things seem to be going okay with them as baby faces right now. And if you're Tony Kahn, I think part of the reason you wanted Punk on this show was to be the baby face face of your brand. And if you take that away, who

is it? And yeah, I mean there's other candidates, but I think you at least have to the fact they're in Chicago to start tells me that they at least want to try this out with him as a baby face and see where it goes. But punks versatile and if they need him to be a heel, I'm sure he'll have no problem doing it. If Punk gets

booted in Chicago, man, that's I mean, what's gonna do. First of all, I mean I still think part of the meltown where he lashed out against Hangman and undercut Tony and all that was based on the fact that Chicago was chatting of Jaff after Punk won the title. I mean, I don't know where I'm Jaff is with the Chicago fans now versus last year, last fall, But I just don't rule anything out. It's gonna be it's

gonna be fascinating. And you know this notion that, oh, people are going to be more into seeing CM Punk fight Kenny Omega or the Bucks because they know they really don't like each other. I mean, it's true, but I still think just I don't know. I just don't want to go back to that, Like the thing that I get, people aren't always gonna get along, and there's gonna be personalities who don't get along. What I

don't. I'm just not a big fan of when something real turns into we're going to pretend it's still real in order to try to convince you that what we're doing is more real than everything else happening on the card. Yeah, and I don't I just I want a really good, self contained story told with people yelling and screaming on promos or talking softly, not yelling and screaming. What am I talking about? UM? I want to see really compelling

promos getting me interested in matches with titles that matter and our valued. And it's sort of a structure where it seems like, you know, there's there's some semblance of order to trying to figure out who the best wrestler is and settle feuds and if you throw into that. Oh, but this viewed is real, then all the other ones seemed fake, and I just don't think that's worth it. I don't think that's worth it. And that's why,

you know, that's why I know. I mean, I talk to people in b who are like, who thought, you know, Punk's pipe on promo? They got white people were buzzing about it, but they don't think it's a great promo because it's somebody breaking the fourth wall and breaking all the

rules that every other wrestler has to abide by. So you know, like that, well, if I was allowed to go out and say stuff like that, maybe I wouldn't be as believable or as good as Punk was with you know, because that one of the reasons it worked is that sort of his authentic self. But they're sort of like, if you give me that kind of freedom, I can go and make news too. And it made everything else. I mean, I'm that excuse only goes so far with me.

It's like especial circumstances. Punk was the right guy to do it. You weren't get over it, and I think the argument was, let's not call this a good promo on the same way we rank good promos because everyone else is constrained by cannon, by narrative structure, and that was their argument. It's like, I can cut a great progressing promo, and I believe I do every week see them. Punk didn't cut a progressing promo. He cut a shoot tape rant, and so they just wanted to categorize differently.

It's kind of the argument, like, you know, if I go out and speak my mind about things that people don't even know we're on my mind that I could vent about, it would make as much news and people go, oh my god, that was so great and they talk about it for years. That was sort of the thing. But it's like, what you want to see Punk do, and I'll apply this to twenty twenty three. I want to see un go out there and not allude to insider stuff.

I want him to go out there and convince me in the canon of a E. W collision that there's something really important he's fighting for and there's a force opposing him that we should be rooting him for him to overcome, or rooting for them to stop him, and just tell that compelling story within the narrative narrative structure. Don't start thinking, well, we got something we can work with here. It's like, I don't like the MGF contract expiration thing.

I'm going to go to w B. It's like, I don't like that because I just I want to know that the fight I'm watching now is what matters, and we got that with Darby, Sammy and Jungle Boy. I'm not saying it's was the best build of the last five years or of this year. Even for a match. It wasn't, but it was a I give I think there was restraint in how much meta stuff they did.

You know, Sammy can't help himself sometimes. Jungle Boy just doesn't even know if sometimes when he's doing it or not because of the generation he's grown up in and all of that. But for the most part, it was I want to beat MGF because he's a jerk, and I want to be world champ in and I've been on this journey and I think I'm good enough,

and it's like, that's it. That's what wrestling is. It's about creating likable and unlikable characters and telling a story where they fight within some sort of structure that everyone agrees to to find out who the better person is, and you either like or dislike someone, and then they have to be great athletes to tell the good story in the rank. I don't need all this stuff that breaks the fourth wall. I know some people live for that. I

just disagree that's actually what people want. I think they want that when they're not getting good, good, compelling stories otherwise. But look at the Bloodline. Nobody's calling for any sort of insider references to how Solo SKOA doesn't really like Paul Hayman in real life, but they have to. That's not part of the story they're telling. But you can tell they're going to go there someday, like no, no one's and that's not true, but no one's

going there because the story is so well told. No exactly. Yeah, I get the audiences appeal for it, and I've said too that I feel like, Okay, let's say there was some match involving Punk and members of the Elite. It'd be fun once, but that's just it once it happens, Like, Okay, they're working together no matter what happens in that match, as long as they don't just shoot start beating the hell out of each other, Like this is back to being a regular wrestling thing, which isn't

a bad thing. I get the appeal of it, but I just I don't know. I think people overestimate the appeal. People were thinking like this is the only way to sell out Wimbley as a sixth man with FTR and punk against the elite. No, it's not. No, And I mean, we're seeing that they've done tremendously well with those tickets. They've done better than I anticipated them doing. I get them all the credit for that. That's awesome, but I didn't feel like it was that match or bust.

Now. I just never felt like that. I totally agree. And I also think you can get in the wrong state of mind as a promoter, as a booker, and as wrestlers if you think telling made up fictional storylines isn't the epit Doing that well is not the epitome of your occupation of your creative genre, because it is people looking around the corner or looking to capitalize on what is an endless stream of people not getting along behind the scenes that

sometimes fills over into the public eye. If you think that's how you're really gonna pop business, you're going to take your eye off the ball, which is you should do what the ho Kogan, Randy Savage, Elizabeth's story. You should be you know, the Megapowers. You should be telling the story of staying versus the nWo. You should be talking about Rick Flair versus carry

Von Eric. You should be striving for free birds against Von Eric's Nick Bockwinkel against Hokoga, Nick Bockwinkel against burn ganya on and on all the way through the Bloodbine and Sammy tell those more conventional stories in the in the rama pro wrestling. That's what we're all here for. And I don't see it as

this bonus to pop business. I see it as something that gets in the way of focusing on what you're in control of always, which is building up strong hale, strong baby faces, strong overall characters of a bond with the audience and telling great stories where they get settled in the ring and if you

just get hung up on oh but this is going to be real. I like in the two thousands, it was like, especially after the Montreal screw Job, the whole thing with Brett and Vince, everybody wanted to trick the internet fans, the smart fans, the newsletter fans, whatever, into thinking something was more real than it was. And it's like, I just to me, that's just a distraction, and it's it's an insecurity within the locker room with the bookers and the writers going telling a great fake story isn't good

enough. We need to fool people, or a fake rivalry won't be as good as a real rivalry. And to me, it's like just whatever story you tell should be great, whether it's real or not. And that extra that comes with it being real comes with baggage, and it can get in the way of all these other things. I don't it doesn't mean steer clear of anybody fighting who's really opposed to each other. I think CM Punk and

Kenyo Maka could have a great main event for AW. But you should have that match, I would argue, regardless of real life heat, because you think you can tell a really good story with those two, whether it resembles reality or not. And I know, you know, Todd Martin, you

know, makes a compelling case. The other way, which is in the modern era, people know this stuff and it adds a little spice to things, and and it's it's a it's a you know, it's it's a shot, it's a you know, it's a it's a shot of adrenaline to wrestling booking when something feels more real. I just am not for bookers just roaming around looking for things to exploit, to fool the smart fans or capitalize on real life, because I do think sometimes it ends up being clunky, like

we saw with MJF last year. Yeah, And I think part of the reason that Omega and Punk, for example, would be a desirable match for people is right now, it feels like they're forbidden fruit. You don't feel like you're going to get that, and so if it ends up happening, naturally people like, my god, we're getting this. This is great.

It to me, it feels more because of that that they don't expect it, that it would be a big deal, more so than Okay, these two had issues before it factors in, and I think if that match were ever announced, I think the initial reaction wouldn't be for most people that wow, how's this gonna go. I think they would know, Okay, they're on the same page. It's gonna go, you know, probably gonna go smoothly. They'd start to think about that as we got closer and as they

started firing comments at one another and promos and things. I think it does give it a little jolt, but I'm with you in that I don't know that it's really worth it either. If there's let's say, see him punk didn't get along with, I don't know. Pick one of the Iron Savages are We're gonna do that match too, just because no people don't want to

see it. Yeah, you can support us on Patreon and get these shows with ads and plugs removed, the weight Killer prosing podcast, weight Killer Processing post shows, and the PW Torch daily casts throughout the week with ads and plugs removed, plus a few bonus vi IP shows throughout the month for just four dollars and ninety nine cents a month. Check it out patreon dot com slash pwtrch viip. That's patreon dot com slash PW torch vip and you can

also upgrade two other tiers and receive even more benefits through Patreon. Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me Jason Powell host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom podcast. Each week you'll hear the latest news and analysis for me and my team at pro wrestling dot Net, along with other pro wrestling media members, plus the Pro Wrestling Boom podcast features long form interviews with

notable names in the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and I Team at Stitcher, Downcast, and all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at pwboom dot com. Once again, that's pwboom dot com. So going back to team because I don't want to stray out from that too much, and I want to get my thoughts briefly on this, which is I think if fans are booing seampunk and he can't win them over, that's a problem. If you're gonna portray him as a baby face, and I think you want your

fans, your fan reaction aligned with the stories you're telling. That was a problem with John Seen and Roman Arrange for so long. You want, you know, you can say, oh, at least they're reacting, and I know there's a whole you know, that was the whole thing in Debt to B when scene was getting booed. It's like, oh, it ain't any reaction. It's good reaction, but it's a consolation prize. It's better than no reaction. But the best reaction is everybody cheering. Everybody booing, because

that's how you're steering fans. So to me, if Punk's gonna be a baby face, you've got to get fans on his side, and you don't want to play up that the baby face Kenny in the Box are battling the baby face CM Punk in its pick sides because you know, Jason, there are people who are pro aw anti or vice versa, and the last thing you want to do is create a situation where fans are like, I'm only a dynamite guy, I'm only a collision guy, I'm a punk guy,

I'm anti elite, or I'm elite, I'm anti punk. I think you want to steer away from that and just pull people in with great promost, great stories, great wrestling. And Punk is mega talented. There's a reason he got to be as big of a star as he was. If he can stay healthy in his mid forties and he's and he can be motivated and engaged and he hasn't you know that time hasn't passed him by or creatively,

he's too mummed up emotionally to just tell good stories. If he can be what made him special in the first place, then then just do that.

I think he can win people over that way, you know, Like so if there is some booze, I just think, get a good, strong heel opposite of him and have him cut a good baby faced promo, and I think he can turn those boots to cheers and people go, oh, this is why I watch wrestling in Punk's good enough, I think to win fans over who are booing him, as long as aw doesn't play into the real life stuff with the elite, and as long as Punk doesn't take it

personally initially and start to say things that are just going to trigger more of a heeler response to him. What makes you think could possibly do that? No, I'm care. Yes, that's the thing. There's all kinds of caveats, caveats with punkum that that aren't unique to him but are absolutely pronounced with him that aren't necessarily the case with everyone else. But he's not the only one who would take it personally or you know, be rattled or whatever.

We've we've seen that before. So I mean, if Punk goes heal, they absolutely need to fortify the baby face side of collision, And we just don't know, you know, how the roster Division's going to go and Tony's being coy about it, and that's his progative, and I don't have any issue with him doing that, especially if it's a work in progress. He's still trying to figure it out. You think we'll have another major announcement next Wednesday? Um? I mean maybe. I mean if it's if it's

if it's relevant, I'm okay with it. Just make sure it's big. I mean, you know, I'm not a video game guy, but I mean, I think announcing a video game qualifies as a big announcement. I think announcing Collision and united to think there's other people that can make these announcements. Well there is that he's gotten better. Yeah, we'll give him that, but it just it it's a bit money, yeah yeah? Um? All right? So if Punk is on Collision as Day's baby face, but

there is more of a roster divide. Is there is Punk a strong enough centerpiece lead act to make this work fighting Powerhouse, Hobbs as a heel on rod A as a heel um? Who else was on that initial press oh?

Merom, Although sometimes are gonna cheer Miro if they try to make Merro heel in Punk a baby face, they better But that's you know, Mero might be if if they're on a good page with Mero, and I know Andrade, you know, it was reported he didn't want to be lined up outside Tony's office, and Mero had some issues with you know what, was

it a bottle royal or something with the way he's booked. It's like, at some point Tony's gonna, you know, go you work for me, Here's what I want you to do, and like, you know, have have that kind of respect from from the wrestlers and and I that's not my problem to solve, but at some point, you know, he's got to go wait a second here with me or not and communicate more, not just

freeze people out. You know, I don't know what how the marcol stumping was resolved, but Marco's like, Tony won't talk to me and it won't book me, and I don't know why. It's like, you got to talk to people. I think if he asked around the locker room he would have known why. But yeah, it is an issue. And I'm hoping that Tony at fifty's forty now at fifty's going to be very different in the way he handles thing that it's it's going to be a learning process for him.

And you know, it's not going to take until he's fifty for him to start putting his foot down on some things. But just the things I hear, I'm not really seeing any signs of that maturity happening yet. That he still kind of avoids confrontation. Yeah, it's just it's an ongoing issue, and I think it does rug people in the locker room the wrong way

that he handles business that way. Others may enjoy that, that might be their style, but I do think that if you're going to be the owner and leader of this company, then it's time to step up and take charge a little bit. And if you're not said it before, I'll say again, if he's not capable, if it's not in his personality to be that guy, then hire someone to be that guy for you. That's the thing.

I mean. Even people who have issues with Tony and have seen him, you know, have a temper and whatever, just say he's he is in The reputation is he's an immensely nice guy. Yeah, And the issue is can he move away? Because he's sort of in an age group where he's younger than some wrestlers and sort of feels like, who am I to say? But he's also the age of a lot of his wrestlers. You

know, Brian Danielson and Tony Kahn are close to the same age. It's not he's not too far off from Kenny Jericho is a dozen years older than him, and so you know there's a deference towards that. See him, Punk is a few years older, and Tony comes across as a wide eyed fan to a lot of wrestlers, and he will outgrow that. But he

can't wait ten years to he'll grow it. So there come a point where this is I'm I'm so excited, I'm such a fan, And let me look at Sampunk at the press conference to just be like, I can't believe I'm sitting guest to Seampunk. I can't believe I'm sitting guest to sap Punk. He works for me. This is great there. You know, you can feel that way, but you kind of got to put up a little bit of a front to battle that that image so that you get the respect

of the wrestlers. Yeah, it might, you know, with him, it might even take a cycle of the talent coming and going and by the time that he is fifty, you know, a lot of the today's stars will age out and Tony will have been around them, and then the new people coming in are really going to look up to an admire Tony Khan rather than just look at him. And as this, you know, billionaire's son who happens to be starting a wrestling company and is my boss. I think

that's a natural progression too. I think it's going to get better. I just hope it doesn't take too long. Hey, Jason, before we continue, tell people about how they can read more and hear more from you and your team other than when you're appearing here on the flaship every three weeks. Yeah. Pro wrestling dot Net is the website updated constantly basically the live reviews of all the major television shows and pay per views and news throughout the day

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VP series that you're missing out without a VIP membership. So go VIP here in twenty twenty two and enjoy all the benefits, all the bonus content and the ad free listening experience. Pwtorch dot com slash go vi ip. All right, So, staying on the aw situation for a moment where a week and a half out from the debut debut of Collision, do you have predictions or a feeling of whether this will succeed or not. I'm kind of in the category of I don't think AW has the fan base to sup port two

shows at the level that Dynamite has been drawing lately. But I think that, as we talked about earlier, there's a chance that they do more, that they augment things and do so in a way that leads to a differentiation between the shows, or just talent that's been inconsistently featured on Dynamite now featured every week on Collision, and then that makes more room for everyone to be featured every week on Dynamite. And it's weird, but it actually could end

up cleaning up the booking a little bit. And if Tony really does separate rosters and separate creative input teams, there could be some competitiveness too that leads to some improvement. But I am more concerned than optimistic that Collision will be considered a rating success for a primetime slot. So that's kind of my take, but I want to get a feel from you and talk about that. I go into this open minded early on, I think it's going to do

barely well. I just don't know what the network expectations are for this on a Saturday night in primetime, where I mean, you get Punk coming back, it's a new show. They're doing their best to generate some buzz and create interest, and I get that, and I think you're going to see the viewership numbers the same night might be a little rough, but I do

think you'll get some good DVR numbers. Where my concern comes in is more once you get into September and you start running against college football and then eventually the NBA the NHL are back, what happens then? You know, how does this show stop? Yeah, that's the tough part. And I just don't know what the network is looking for here. I don't even know what Tony's expectations are for the ratings wise, viewership wise, all of that.

And if it doesn't go well, then what I mean, you have this massive roster and you've got five hours of TV now, I guess seven if you want to include Ring of Honor. But if it doesn't go well, the network doesn't want this long term, then what I guess that's the scary part. I mean, I think that they have a very loyal audience. The fact that this pay per view reportedly is doing well the one double or

nothing, is that early indications are that it did performed well. They tend I gotta se I mean, it seems like when those preliminary numbers come out, they're always higher than what they settle in at, but they're still high enough that even if there is a dip there, the final numbers should still be pretty solid. So they have a very loyal audience. Another part of this what happens when they're up against Money in the Bank and wwepl's you know,

every like one Saturday of month. Basically, I mean, that's another hit that I think they're naturally going to take. Now they are also probably gonna cut into ww's p ls, but it's still you get is competition. You have all the sports's competition and just Saturday night as competition. It's I think it's one thing to expect wrestling fans to just to sit down on a Saturday night and enjoy a pay per view or a POE once in a while.

It's another day ask people to be there every single Saturday night, and I boy, it's it's tough. But again, you know, if you or the network and you're going, well, yeah, but we're number one on Saturday night until sports season starts again. Is that enough for maybe? I don't know. And if they get bumped a lot, I mean, Dynamite takes such a hit when it's bumped. Rampage stakes huge hit when it's bumped all over the place. Rampage should be bounced off the face of the

planet. The show serves no purpose, I know, I know. I mean, at least I got rid of Dark and Dark Elevation, so there's a little more focus than that to start. But now they just shifted it to needlessly long roh tapings for a two hours just doesn't it just doesn't need to exist. And the matches on the show the other week. Yeah, I mean, why why is he doing that? I don't know. I'd

love to hear him explain that. I wish some of the people he actually took calls from during the media sessions would start asking some of these questions. But you really don't get any answers on it. I think he'd probably just be told great question and he'd move on to something else. Anyway, everyone's questions aren't great everyone. Yep, w W is saying, that's a great question. But here's why I'm not going to answer. Here's all I'll answer

it, but not really yet. Here's here's the words I'll say that aren't really an answer. Um. Yeah, I that the Ron SmackDown I have a good deal because they're just rarely preempted. But when SmackDown gets cramped as one, they lose two thirds of their viewership. Yep. So yeah, that's it's it's going to be a change. Where does this go when they are preempted it? There have been no signs, like when Rampage is preempted. It's not like we'll just move it to Discovery in the same time slot

or you know, one of the offshoot network. It always gets bounced around. It stays on that network and it just gets you know, could be Friday afternoon. Where does this show go? Does it become a Friday afternoon show or we're talking like after midnight on Saturday. What happens? Yeah? And then how how difficult is it to get your viewership back when you don't just own that time slot? Yeah and stay in it. So I mean, it's an exciting chapter in AW. Yes for sure, and it's it's

the next step that they're taking. And without a new TV deal locked in, the pressure's on and we'll see what Tony Khan and see Humpunk and everyone can can do. What what do you think of Don callis stepping up and delivering a big promo last week on Dynamite. I mean, it wasn't super long and it just had sort of that dominic keat. I love that we can say that now, yeah, but just that that organic. We don't

like you and we're gonna boo and drawn out your in words. But what we saw of Don Callis on the microphone I thought was promising and I hope they can build on that because AW as much as that, you know, they pride themselves and they're they're what they're known for is the athleticism and the diversity of wrestling styles bell to bell, and that's great and it's a differentiating

trait from WWE. You still want to make those matches matter, and there's there's a large part portion of the fan base that that is going to care and be more invested in a match, not because there's more dives and innovative moves and dream matches with wrestlers from other countries and other promotions. They're going to be into it because of what they see on Dynamite or Collision, that is mic work by a wrestler or manager that gets people invested in seeing that

match and what plays out and who wins and loses. And Don Callis is at the is in the top tier of a EW talkers. And I you know, we thought when Kenny was a heel with Callous as a manager, that was a chance for a blackwekl heenan type dynamic that could just be a generational high point, and it didn't rise to the occasion. Did what you saw us Wednesday with Callous give you a sense that maybe Kellis is ready to step up and become a really valuable talker in this company on a weekly basis.

Yes, yes, I think it's long overdue for Don Callous, not just in a w I don't know what's held this guy back over the years. I've always feel like he's been a strong, conquered I know you he does play to the boys in the back a little bit, what have you if you want to label it that at times, But boy, I mean even as a color commentator like that was something you look at a w's broadcast team. How was there not room for Don Callos at that broadcast table considering

just how damn good he was calling matches in New Japan. I thought he was great there, So yeah, one way or another, it looks like, obviously he's going to be like the lead manager now. I think non Callous can bring a lot to the table for this company. I'm encouraged by Jip. We haven't seen him in the ring, but just takeshta not looking like a deer in the head like, but also just actually looking like a heel, knowing how to just kind of get that little sideways look to the

camera. I'm like, Okay, yeah, this is not just a guys are really good wrestler. Maybe there's somebody that can play the heel role here too. I like to talk about the family. I'm hoping it's not. Well Blackpool Combat Club is the new family. I really I don't think AW needs another faction, But at the same time, I'm open to Callous forming a Heenan like family. I would like to see them chop three factions that don't need to be there just for all their obvious reasons if you're going to

create a new faction at least three. I'm trying to be nice. I could easily say ten. But yeah, I think Callous is somebody that is going to talk people into the buildings that they're gonna want to see wrestlers get their hands on him and his guys fail and all that stuff. I think that if it's done right, Don Callis brings a lot to the table, and I'm hoping he's involved creatively. You know, it was he and Scott the more An Impact Wrestling that really kind of took the tena stank off that

promotion and turned it into something different and Don left for whatever reason. But you know, I don't know who was doing what creatively, but if he was heavily involved in the the Early Impact run and their Anthem run, then I don't see why he wouldn't be involved creatibly at AW two. Yeah, Yeah, I they I've said this multiple times in recent weeks. My criticism

of AW isn't pushing the wrong people who aren't qualified for their push. It's well, there's a little bit of that, but it's more often not it's pushing the right people and not getting as much out of them as possible, and there's just more to tap into and more to get out of some of the talent that they have. A lot of times historically, Jason, we've covered promotions that are pushing people were like, why are you pushing them?

But with aw it's they have a lot of talent. They need to push more in the talent that they are pushing, they need to push better. Why has Jeff Jared always on that list? Anyway, I'm trying not to see all these different promotions. Yeah, I know, it happens. It happens. So one way that you can help us sustain our schedule of putting out podcasts throughout the week is by giving us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts. Just go to Apple podcast and look for our Weight Killer Processing podcast

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in the comments section. Thank you so much. Let's jump back to the Bloodline and where we kind of started this all the hook this week and they sized it last night on Raw with the Paul Hayman promo, and I like how they lay out, you know, we talk about Tony con announcements and how it's like a little bit each week, and that was more I think by necessity than than design um with the punk controversy and stuff. But they are kind of it's like, okay, Jimmy and Roman seemed like they broke

up at Night of Champions. There was a tease of of of getting back together again or reconciling, and then of course Roman turned that down. And then it's beyond the point of return between Jimmy and Roman. And now the question is who will Jay side with? And they hype that on Raw we may get a resolution or we may just get a development to a teaser on Friday. Where do you see Jay going? Is it a given that he

sides with Jimmy against Roman and Solo? Is it possible they drag it out until he's makes his decision at ringside during the first reigns Jimmy match, what's your what's your projection? I don't think he has to just come out and definitively say anything this week, but I do think ultimately he sides with his brother Jimmy. I mean, it's kind of strange to the Universal Champion is going to end up in a tag team feud, but it kind of seems

that way. Maybe maybe I'm misreading it for that reason. Maybe it is it's Jimmy's time now to go after Roman, and Jay stands by for the time being, and then eventually so many people want to see this go full circle to Jay and that may happen. My big concern regarding that whole because I just hear at so many places it's got to be Jay. Jay is the one to beat Roman. Does Jay have it to be world champion? Long term? Transitional? Maybe? I think Jay's great at his role in

the Bloodline. I think he's a great tag team right. I think he's a great wrestler. But does he have the promo chops? Is he going to be your face of the company for any true length of time? And I think people who love Jay will say yes. I don't know that I see it Wade. I think he's awesome at what he does. There's a lot of people are really good at what they do, but they're not facing the company types to WWE looks for it, right, So what what is

the timeline and is there an end in sight? Or can they keep telling this story for a while, because like, at some point, are we gonna get Roman against somebody who wasn't part of the bloodline or striving to be part of the bloodline other than Cody, and or are we looking at Jimmy and Jay and maybe eventually solo maybe a rematch with Sammy a year from now. If brands get reshuffled Cody in the middle of that, is that enough? I mean, maybe maybe that is enough to get us through a year

that the pace w B tells these stories. It might be, yeah, because I think you could probably get a Jimmy and Roman match soon Jay makes his decision, you get a tag match. Roman doesn't work the full time schedule, and so they could keep doing this. Maybe you do mix in somebody at some point that isn't part of the bloodline story. I wonder if you know, if the usos do leave, do they add someone or multiple people to the bloodline to replace them. That may not necessarily be true family.

There's been a lot of speculation Toma Tonga Tonga Loa, but they're also advertised for the g One, so I don't know that that's happening. People like to so what about Jacob Flatto, Well, he's under contract MLW who isn't involved in Illegal to be it with WWE, So I don't know if that's going to happen anytime soon either. I don't know who would be, but I think they have a really good thing going here, and if you listen to them, they made it seem like wrestle Nanny, who was what

they say the third inning or something like that. I don't remember what lingo they used to describe, like, Yeah, we're just getting started with this, and it's one of the few times when I hear people talking about long term booking in this industry that actually believe them. They may not have everything completely mapped out week to week or anything like that, but I think they have the key stuff laid out and they know where they're going with this.

What stands out to you about this storyline, good or bad? Is there anything? I'll load the question up i'll steer you. Is there anything that you haven't liked about what the way they've told this, this bloodline storyline since Sammy got Red Hot and they did the match in Montreal and then Cody and then the follow up. I know there were, you know, a couple of dry weeks because they're just pacing themselves and you know, trying to get

peak moments. But is there anything where you're kind of like, oh man, that that that didn't ring true to me, or the acting didn't work, or that was a move they should have done sooner or not or later. Yeah. I don't even remember the specifics now, but there was that week where it felt like they did a time jump and it's been a while. I think it was even premnia M. Yeah, it's just kind of like, wait a minute, did we missed an episode? That was one

of the rare times though I really have enjoyed it. I was open to Roman and Cody's winner, and I thought it would be Cody, and when it was Roman, It's okay, cool, you know this is fine too. Let's see where they go with this. And I think there's still people pushing back at it. They probably will be for a long time. Maybe

they'll be proven right. Maybe it should have been Cody's time. I don't know, but I just know that he's doing fine, and the bloodline is doing fine, especially better than fine based on those numbers they put up Friday. So tied into the bloodline storyline, a parallel story going on as Cody. We talk about Cody every time we talk for good reason. Things are going very well for him in WWE. He's turned out to be very valuable.

He's now challenged brock Lessner to a rematch, but as he says, the Beast is hibernating, and in the meantime we now get a Dominic feud with Cody, which I endorse. I think it's a really good move because it helps Cody get cheered and not no fans are gonna waiver and people love booing Dominic tongue in cheek or not. I like that, and I think it's a good step for Dominic in terms of showing what he can do in the ringing on the microphone. What do you think about what they're doing with

Cody. I think it's going very well. I think, you know, considering that he's not going after Seth's championship at the moment that he's feuding with Lesner and Brock's not going to be there for money in the bank apparently. I think they're doing really well in keeping Cody with other things happening, you know, and we're just kind of starting to see this thing with Dom. I think it is the safest thing you can do. I was even and still am for the idea that, believe it or not, Cody loses to

Dominic masteria. I know people are going to cringe at that one. But what if you had Lesner interfere in that match? I don't know what is contractual situation is date wise if he's going to be at money in the bank. But let's say he did. Okay, Dom gets this wind that nobody's going to hold it against Cody. Nobody's gonna go, oh man, they're really saluring on Cody. They're gonna be none of that. It's a flukeass wind that Dom gets, and it puts Dom in position to then feud with

seth Rawlins. And you get that because there's I know, it's not anyone's looking at it going well, they're never gonna ship put the title on Dom and I don't think they will anytime sooner or anything like that. But you look at that raw roster, the heels they have, there's not many feuds for set Rollin. So if you can get one with Dominic Masterio as over as he is temporarily, I think you go for it and then you circle

back. Obviously eventually Cody gets his win back and then some. But I do think that they really need to be doing something with Dominic Mysterio and it is lost that Cody can absorb. I know he lost one to brock Lesner. That would have been more damaging than a cheap loss to dom. I'm not talking clean. I'm talking lots of interference and things. I think there's a way you lean into dom for a little bit and you have some fun with it. Now you can subscribe to our VP podcast lineup within the Apple

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within the Apple podcast app. Tell me about the evolution of your thoughts on Dominic over time. What has he done to surprise you or impress you? Or do you think he's stunted? And there's you know issues that he shouldn't be getting pushed this month, or warning signs are danger signs that maybe are around the corner that he's the crowd reaction is maybe ahead of his talent and readiness for this kind of prominent role. Oh it probably is, but oh

well, lean into it. You know, people learn into it now and that's what counts. And I really enjoyed Dom the Run with everything that led up to him, and Ray was a lot of fun. I still like him with Riha Ripley, I still get a kick out of the whole prison dom aspect of things. And Corey Graves has a lot of fun. He enhances things on a commentary with just the way he talks about Dom. I think it's a really good act. And maybe he is like, maybe this

is gonna die out. What better reason than to take full advantage of it and get everything you can out of it? While you can totally agree. So we've got a conundrum with Cody and the title in Roman reigns Roman to celebrate a thousand days. They wanted to get there, they wanted to have that moment. They had it. But Cody's going to get a rematch against Roman either at Summer Slam or Wrestomania next year. Where when and why do

you think it's going to be then? And do you have to pull the trigger and have Cody and Rains his rain to finish that story or is there an alternate path that they can take, or do we need to see what happens with the bloodline and kind of make it what was not a last second

decision, but the decision to have Roman beat Cody at Wressamania. My reporting on that from what I heard from talking to people do B was they had it inked in about three weeks before Mania, but we're open to change even after that, even with ink, but they were very open to change before

that. So it wasn't They were leading strongly and had their reasons for doing it doing what they did, and I think we just saw some of it play out because they had this all, you know, a lot of this planned out with the Cody Leisner feud and the breakup of the bloodline at the at the thousandth day celebration, and you can make it, you know, certainly make a case that even if you think they should have Gonne the other

way, they're getting a lot out of things. A lot good things out of going this direction instead, So they may not know, you know, if Cody's gonna win or not. Ultimately, what do you what do you think they're planning? What do you think they ought to do and on what timeline? I think they should take the same approach they took last year and go ahead and get a plan. If you are working toward Cody in Roman at Mania, which I suspect that they are, then okay, great,

but don't commit. Where is Cody at that time? You know he's doing fine? Now does he cool off by then? Does the bloodline thing run out of gas where it becomes more obvious that, yeah, you gotta make Cody the guy now? So I wouldn't be married to anything. In fact, I wouldn't even be married to Cody. And Roman headlines Mania next year. You may get there and be like, wow, Soul, it's a CoA and Roman or whoever. It may just makes more sense. Let's go

in that direction. I think you want to have a basic plan for where you're going, But I think there's no reason to fully commit to anything at this early At this early stage, there's still a lot of time before May yet, Yeah, yep, in three years. Is Cody still a top baby face in w w E Or is there uh an expiration date on this version of Cody and we kind of saw it happened in a w or are we in a different different situation? Now? How long is this contract?

Um? I think he's I think he's a lifer, but um, I think he's a life for with w w E. I'm not sure of the length of his deal. Yeah, I mean, would Tony Kahn has money and you know, you can't rule it out. Who knows? Maybe you know Cody total hypothetically, what if he his aspiration was to return to win that championship and they just don't give it to him. Things go to well with Roman where they're likes and and he does cool off a little bit, you know. But I just, again, like you, I don't know

when his deal is up. Um very much debated ternment. I can't sit here and tell you that Cody's going to click for the next three years, because I've learned my lesson from it. I saw An and he was super over at the beginning of things and probably the most popular talent or John Moxley, I would say, and boy, the decline was rapid Now. I do think that he benefits from the added structure in WWE, and I think that as long as they still want him to be the lead baby face,

they're going to do everything they can to protect him. I feel better about it with Paulavec handling the day to day booking than Vince, who you know. I mean, we just saw it was seen in We saw it with Roman. Vince Wol just start to dig his heels in and it's not in a productive manner where I think there's other ways to do it where Okay,

we're getting a rocky patch here, what do we do? Let's you know, And they're obviously doing it now, but somewhere down the road, it would be, well, why don't we put him in there with Dom. He's not going to get you know, there's things you can do to basically get to kind of steer the crowd back in the right direction and through our issues. So I think that there is a very good chance that he is

a mainstay baby face for this company. But I also just look at Cody that personality, and I think, manage your money with him as a heel when the time is right. If they want to go, yes, I mean the bond he has with fans and Corey Gary's put it that way. No one has a bond with fans that Cody has, but that that can be a positive. Look at Tekeshta if the fans were indifferent towards him and he'll turn went to Ben as emotionally jarring as it was. But I think

there's more. I think having a wrestler who fans like decide to associate with Callus makes them resentful and angry with that, with that choice more than if he was arrestler. People don't care about so with Cody if the opportunity presents itself, because to me, one of the biggest money matches that that WB has sometime in the next few years is Roman is a baby face against Cody as a heel. Sure, but we gotta tell the Cody is a baby face against Roman as a heel story. First, I think win or lose

for Cody. Yeah, that makes sense, absolutely, Yeah, yeah. Um So anything else on the Bloodline, I know I ask some specific and some open ended questions, but anything you want to bring up about about that that saga or Cody, you know, kind of the top tier stuff on that side. Of things for Dota be Yeah, I guess my one concern would be, we're kind of going back over some things they've already done.

You know, we're getting back to that point if they're going in the direction I think where you're going to start to see Roman against Jimmy and you're gonna see Roman against Jay. So yeah, it's the second time around. And but you know, the characters are different now to some extent, and I think they're gonna work hard to keep things different. But those guys again, to me anyway, I just don't see them as major threats to win the

World Championship and hold it for any real length of time. And so does that start to work against things? And maybe that the storytelling is really good, But if fans aren't believers that these guys are going to actually beat Rains for the championship, does that start to work against some of their numbers. In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP podcast NXT eight years Back, we'll be

taking a weekly look at this page in NXT's early history. Joe, Kelly Wells and me Tom stout from PWT Talks NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they did or didn't work out exclusively for PW torch VIP members. All right, So moving

on to soath Rawlins and the new World Heavyweight Championship. How put on the record first how you felt about the new title being introduced and now stipulate to that decision being made and grade what they're doing with what they had to work with since then over the past couple of weeks. Yeah, I wasn't in favor of it. I get it. I think there is an audience that

really wants to see a championship on Raw. I mean, it is kind of crazy when they said it's been nearly two years since they've had a title match on Raw, and even crazier I would. I was kind of like, oh, I would have guessed longer. It's it's weird that they didn't do more with Roman working with Raw talent occasionally to try to make it seem like they had a chance at that championship too. But so you know it's here. Seth was the logical choice. I don't know how much they planned

for this when it came to the draft. It's strange looking at that roster. I don't see a lot of really compelling matches for Seth Rawlins as world champion. I mean, they're already going back to Finn fricking Baalor, it looked like, and hopefully that's just a TV match. Yes, they work well, they'll have good matches. Yeah, no one believed Finn Balor's beating Seth Rollins for that championship. There was more belief in Damian Priest fresh off

a loss to Rawlings. Then there are believers that Finn Balor's going to win that championship. I'm sorry that. Yes, that is a problem that instantly is presenting itself, as with roster split. How credible are the opponents for Seth and how believable is it is Damian Priest turning baby face? Is that what we saw last night with a pretty stand up version of himself at the promo at the top of the show, followed by the given Finn a dirty

look when he wanted to just fight Seth alone. It seemed like it, But I don't get it. You know, they have Cody and Seth and Ko and Sammy, they need strong heels. There's Goonther and I assume they're going to hold off on that until a key show, and you know, eventually a Goonther and sat there some baby face with her Cody or set in a showdown match. But that seems more WrestleMania than anytime soon, and I just, yeah, I'm struggling when I look at that roster to see meaningful

heels. You have one im Priest, and so unless they really feel like they need a Puerto Rican sensation because they want to do more business in Puerto Rico when bad money is not available, I don't really get this move if that's where it's going. Yeah, I was surprised too, because when you look at the depth chart, you're like, where are the heel opponents coming

from? And then Priest impresses people against bad Bunny and it's like, okay, let's get behind him, and then he jobs last week, and then this week they do this open Challenge quick match with Seth instead of building up to it over time. But if the idea is turning him, then that works or that explains why they're doing it. At least I wonder if one of the more compelling opponents for Seth as a heel on the horizon is Matt

Riddle. Sure I could see that. Yeah, Like I like that, and I mean something on rawles and I sort of felt like maybe they're planning the Seeds in terms of how they've been framing him and talking about him, and so I wonder because to me, I like that better than Seth and Priest. I thought the Matchwasson was fine, um, and I think Priest is good. Then whenever the hell Priest was wearing, it made him look like he was straight out in Rocky Horror Picture Show. What was that?

Right? Yes? And I mean I think Priest has is at a good spot. And I don't mind him being a number three baby face on raw or number four baby face. I don't want him my number one, number five you got Kaole and Sammy. I mean, I guess if you want to call him one act, that's yeah, that's the thing. I mean,

if they are, if they are one act right now. But yeah, I mean a top six baby face even, Like I'm fine with that rotating, you know, depending on if he's a singles or baby face or singles or tag team and you know, kao and Sammy in that mix. Um that works. But I'm intrigued with with Riddle turning heel and you know we talk about takesh Deen fans going no, we like him. You know Riddle turns There's gonna be a lot of a wide range of demographics who watched

w B going no, we liked Riddle? What's up with this? And I can't wait for Andy to come back and straighten him out. But it's a to me that feels fresh. I know Riddle was sacrificed against Roman, we were there for that. They have to find him down a bit, but there's nothing like a turn that can freshen things up in terms of getting people look at somebody in new light. Yeah, I think Riddle could use

that. It's just not the same with him as a baby face. And I'm all for the character maturing and not being a simpleton stone or idiot, but it just hasn't connected with whatever he's doing now hasn't connected in the same way that that Dufaus lovable Dufaus character did. And so yeah, they want to go heal with him. Great. My concern with Priest, like if he's top five, Let's say he's fifth or even fourth on the depth chart.

Would you rather have a fourth or fifth baby face than a second or third heel when you're well, you know, when you have Cody and set there as your top baby faces. Again, I questioned this decision. If that's where they're going, I assume they're going to slide J. D. McDonough into the Judgment day act, and I even have concern about that because then all of a sudden, you a priest to add something with his size. All of a sudden, Balor and McDonough and dom and Ria and Riah

is suddenly the biggest person in that faction. You know. I know size isn't what it once was, but I do think free size gives them a little bit of the credibility boost. Yeah, yeah, it is Seth clearly the right choice to remain champion for a while. I like that they've differentiated what Seth wants to do with the title compared to Roman, but I am concerned. My caveat is, you don't want to bury Roman's title reign,

which is so important and over and meaningful. At you don't want to You don't want to demean what Roman is doing or make people think, yeah, this isn't as big of a title reign as I thought, because it doesn't

defend it very often. If Seth is over on Rob badmouthing him. So it's walking this fine line between let's elevate Seth's title and make it seem relevant and differentiated from the Roman title, but not bury Roman at the same time, because that makes a bad situation of having two world titles even worse when

the one that was really over you start undercutting. Ooh. It's just a strange situation where you have such a dominant champion and the logic they use to get to this championship, and I don't know that Seth needs to have a long title reign and we know they love those right now, I think it's okay if he has a three month title reign and if there's somebody that makes more sense to go with, great, If he catches on and people are

really into it, then obviously stick with it. But I would not be going into this going well, Roman has his thousand day rain, we got to go at least a year with Seth. I wouldn't be taken. I would not have that mindset. Yeah, yep, march through progressling history with

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indie show lineup of the week and more. Go viip and relive wrestling history or learn about it for the first time as we continue to march through our two thousand and five library near the anniversary dates of when they aired eighteen years ago on that date. To become a PWTRG VIP member, go to Pwtorch dot com slash go viip and sign up today. Anything else on Seth in the New World Pedal. I still can't believe they had Prestick the pinfall loss

in the Tag Team ash the week before. I think they wanted to protect Balor because Balor's is going to be the actual challenger to Seth, who were

supposed to believe as a threat. Then you screwed up. Yeah, I'm sorry, but I think people would have been more into the possibility of priests rather than we've seen Rollin's in battlet We've been there and done it, and they're so infatuated with Finn blowing a shoulder out in that match after taking the Barrett like move on already this is ancient history, and then poor priests had to take the same damn move. And I hope he's selling I did too.

That look that didn't look well done, And I mean, that's not a move you that. That is a move that wrest are explain to me is easy to get injured on because if you look backwards to see your distance, you're you're not hitting, because the goal with bumping is to spread it

out evenly, proportionally across the part that's getting that's absorbing the impact. And with that move, if you look over your shoulder to see your distance, you're by definition, shifting one shoulder closer to the barricade than the other. And when you don't land evenly, it's like, you know, sleeping on a bad pillow, except all at once everything gets or bad mattress. Everything gets thrown out of whack, and it did seem like that that have been

the case. Hopefully not, but it's just it's just a move where you gotta trust the other guy. And I don't know that that looked the way you want it to look. What can you do that? Yeah? What do you think the driving force is in this belief that Finn Balor is a believable challenger for Seth? Are they just getting caught up in the matches, matches and nothing but matches mentality of oh, it's going to be a good

match, so let's go with that. I think they believe that they have enough other big matches on whatever pls they have scheduled for Seth and Balor to be a match that they don't need to give away the top tier SETH match.

So this is filler um maybe filler's outhword, but I think I think they're thinking, let's save the bigger SETH matches when we don't have Let's say that, let's say there's a Pale with Roman against Jimmy and Cody against Brock and the money in the bank matches, Well, you don't need a major SETH match at that point. So you do Seth Balor for now and then when you don't have as strong and I don't know that they'll all be on the same show. They probably won't be, obviously, because Cody Dominic will

probably at money in the bank. I don't even know. I haven't really settled in on and I don't know if it's become super clear, um win these matches all congregate, But I did that for the sake of example. To me, they know Seth balories at B level title defense, and they don't want to load up the show that that's on, so they they want to save a bigger Seth match for later. That that's my take on it. Yeah, I just hope we'll get to the point where they start planning

these things out. I mean we I just had to look it up, but I knew it was fairly recent. We just saw a Seth beat Ballor on May eighth. Yep, yep, yep. I know. And it takes. It takes. I mean, I'm not I'm not gonna sell anyone on the idea that it's gonna be a good match, but no one's gonna buy Balories beating Seth. But but not every title match do you need to buy that the person's gonna win. Jason, you and I talked on the phone during the whole Coogan How show tours back in the day. Try to

convince ourselves at Hercules is gonna be who Cogan in our hometown. Um, but you still can't believe he didn't do it. But we knew, you know it was unlikely, but you want to you know, we wanted to be there for a title change. We talked ourselves into it. Some fans will talk themselves into it, but they're not. Not every title defense needs to be a match where you think the champ might lose. Sometimes you watch

for other reasons because you want to see the heel losing. You're gonna take satisfaction and witnessing it, or you're just into the story that the champion is on and it's going to be a good match. And I think there's enough of that with Seth Balor to be to be okay. Not every Seth match is going to be the WrestleMania match, and not every card is going to have the very best match possible on it because you'd use them up too quick.

I guess I just worry again looking at their depth chart. We better branch for a lot of this unless they get Brandy Orton drew back and fire is that they need some returns. The riddle turn I think would help. I don't think you're messing with ko when Shammy anytime soon. I think that would be a mistake. And so yeah, again, Gunter is a long term thing. I would hope, you know. I mean, you need somebody to take that championship, and you want to heal. He's your guy.

You could do that. You don't have to wait. I mean raunch and reads there, but they can't decide whether to get behind him or not. It seems like from week to week. I mean there's there are some people, but it just doesn't look like they went into this draft thinking about we're gonna have Seth. There's a baby based champion. Who were his challengers? Well, Julian from London had a question on Seth. Also, it's perfect timing. Let's bring this up. Can you explain Seth rawlins to me?

I don't understand why people are excited to have him as a new champion. He feels so stale. There's barely a match involving Seth. I haven't already seen after his eleven years on the main roster. Maybe even thought last month he will never feel like the biggest star in the company and instantly makes a new championship seem lesser than laughing maniacally and having a catchy song is not the same as having a character. I know defense love singing along, but

I don't believe that translates to them caring if he wins and loses. I do like rawlins and he will always deliver in the ring, but I feel like his best role at the moment is getting over new stars, as he did successfully with Cody. What am I missing? So on the Rapos shoal last night, we had callers and I was like co responds talking about like, if Seth just downplay the laugh, they'd be more into him. You

know, it feels little cartoonish and authentic. So what do you say to Julian's case and is there something that you think would improve Seth's act to take away some of the negatives that people feel towards him. Yeah, more of what we saw in those sit down interviews leading into him winning the championship at the Saudi Show. I think there just needs to be a little more realness from him and you can still do the flamboyant stuff and I think the cackle

some people love and some people hate it. Whatever, But I do feel like there needs to be a realness to the character in addition to some of the over the top things that he's been doing. And if you get that, I think he'll be fine. He's over And you know, it's easy to say how the fans just like Shanning his music. They do. But if you, let's say, you know, Otis had this same mused,

well, maybe he's a bad example because people love voice. But you know what I'm saying, if you put you gave that music to somebody else, I don't think the reaction would be as strong as it is. And it's as stained as it isn't mean there's is an audience that's really into Seth. I think there's also an audience that's been watching a while this character just isn't connecting with it. I get it, I do, It's it's not my favorite version of Seth Rollins. Yeah, I am okay with Seth being the

champion, I am. I mean, I don't. I don't to me rushing Cody into winning a belt that wasn't the belt that he wanted to win from Roman has a stain on it that Seth winning this title doesn't um And I just don't know that there's like a better candidate that's jumping out to me at this moment. But I think they should be preparing for the possibility that a lot of people feel like Julian and I think Seth. I think Seth wants to be a great champion and have a historical reign like I like that.

I believe that Seth is motivated to make people care about his matches and his title and make and take away the negative stigma of this being a second world title reintroduced, and I think that's good to have a wrestler like that. I wish there were more people in aw who seemed as hungry and professionally driven as Seth. So there's some real good things, but Julian brings up some of the negatives we here quite often. And he's got a song that's

over and he's you know, bombastic and colorful. But I think it's still a work in progress as a character. But I don't know that there's anybody else who I think at this stage is ready. Maybe Guther at some point. I doubt it he'll Riddle will be a guy that they, you know, go with. There's not a ton of depth, you know, on the raw roster for for other heal options to take the title from Seth, and that's you know, part of the problem and part of white Seth,

I think is the best choice among the options. And maybe, I mean, I guess be happy if you're a Cody fan that he didn't win the championship and NIPA and Raw the matches would be fresher. You know, Seth been around for so long and based so many people, but that they're like it'd be if Cody were the holding this championship, which he should, and I'm with you, it should. You know that that was not his goal, but if he did, I think he'd run into some of the same

issues. And I think Guther could be the guy right now. But I don't need another super super strong heel holding another championship in WWE. Would you have that happen? I got the other brand. Yeah. Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn some wrestling history, don't miss the nineties Pass, cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. Alex and Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by taking you through the Torch

issue from that very week. Follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties pass cast every Friday on the PW Torch

Daily Cast Feed. What do you think of Rona Rails and Chata Base are so far as take champs um a competitive match with Katana Chance and Canan Carter last night, but they're you know, ultimately they're this, you know, being portrayed as a bully dominant tag team who have expressly said on Raw last night they want to elevate the women's take team titles and make them mean more. It's kind of like Seth in the World Title you want you know,

you've got baby faces and Heels saying and Gunther two. I mean, like all the major titles on Raw have champions who who are really talking about wanting to bring a certain level of prestige and gravitas to the belts that they're holding based on how they how they win and who they beat seeing is believing. We've heard this from numerous WWE women's tag team champions, and I just don't

think they haveing augh depth to make this. You know, maybe if you can get a baby Face team over, they can have a you know, ninety A program or something and elevate those titles to some extent. But usually it just consists of there's the champions and then there's two singles wrestlers we're throwing together. So I like that Carter and Chance have history as a team and all of that. They're they're pretty good. I just don't think there's enough

teams like that in WWE. I don't think that they really care about the women's tag team titles. Saw how much that irritated Bailey and Sasha Banks and then Sasha Banks and Naomi and Ronda. Rousey's already kind of chirping about it a little bit too. And I don't know that this ends any better. What should they do with the two women's titles on the wrong brand at this point? I'm hoping that there are new titles coming, like new belts.

Yeah, and they're just right yeah that they're they're giving up on the Rouns and SmackDown. I don't know why they wouldn't have had them ready by now, but yeah, something's got I mean they're not even talking about a belt swamp. No, so like a women's universal title and a women's world title. Do they just go to the world in universal works for me? Yeah, I mean it's better than color coding and brand coating and drafting people and doing belt trades every time that happens. But I mean, I'm per I

know people are growing up at the belt trade. I'll take a belt trade over being perpetually confused in my own head overweight, she's on she's a SmackDown champ on raw or vice versa, or is she making a guest appearance? You know, like just we need we need the roster split to saddle and there to be some semblance of logic in order to where everyone is and what belt they're holding. Will that be in the next great Paulo back appearance on Rons to hand off another title belt? Yes? Yes, perfect, I

do think that will be answer. Okay, let's let's have two money on a bank and worth things stand with the men's and women's site. Since we're talking women here, will stick with that. We got to lean a veg up Becky Lynch, so we Stark, and then it's either going to be Bailey or Meechin and or Eo. And then there's still someone else we don't

know who will be added. Without a complete picture, it's you know, I don't want to get too deep into making predictions, but I see various candidates like I think Bailey could use the win and running around at a briefcase I think suits her gimmick and her character. I think you know, skywinning in that irking Bailey and Bailey having to be supportive sort of in the way Britt has has had to be supportive of Jamie Hayter. That can work,

But I also like Zoe Stark getting a boost from it. But maybe Becky Lynch that's her path to just naming a date and cashing in. I think Cela Vega is having a nice run right now, but I wouldn't give her the briefcase as a baby face who's already had a title shot and come up

short. That doesn't work. But to me, Bailey, Sky Stark, and Lynch all as of this moment, seem like candidates whom I could imagine winning and I could see a defensible to see it being a good move based on various stories I could tell with each of them, who are you? Yeah, I think he summed it up. None of it really excites me

all that much because of the way the MEN'SID played out. I still continue to wonder if we're getting the legendary WWA second chance qualifier when we erased any good that we've done was surprising you in these qualifying matches by oh, hey, that person that you were surprised to see, gone, Yeah, they're in after all, name le Bronson read, I wouldn't be surprised if he

gets in. I don't even I haven't kept close tabs on who's been Like, off top of my head, I can't tell you who's been eliminated on the women's side of things, But I wonder if that's how they'll do it now they did it was weird. I know we're talking about the women, but I thought that was strange that they told us last week that Matt Riddle was going to be an a qualified A on this coming Monday show, and I don't think they brought that up last night. Yeah, it's been a

little confusing in terms of how they framed it. I wish they would just announce them all at once. Yeah, just here's here's it's like a tournament. You don't just piecemeal reveal who's going to be in a tournament while it's taking place. Yeah, both companies do, and I can't stand it. So, so they have Baron corbyan against Riddle listed on Wikipedia as a match that hasn't happened yet that will be a qualifier for Riddle. So do they I assume they'll just go through with that? Oh yeah, I guess.

I didn't even know where they I don't know where the Baron Corbyn thing came from. Yeah, no, I don't either. I'm just but there's a collection of the entire universe of people who update Wikipedia, um and with wrestling, it's pretty reliable when it comes to this type of thing. But I don't remember them announcing it. So, but I assume at some point it did, maybe maybe ONWA dot com even Yeah that could be. Yeah.

So but they still have a TBA in there, you know, to be announced, and it's like why, I you know why, you know what it's gonna be. It's gonna be the second Chance match, isn't it. Yeah? That's what I'm saying. Yeah, it's going to be Yeah, Yeah, you're right, yep. Um. So on the women's side, of the candidates who have already been eliminated for last Chance and the names that I mentioned, do you have a far and away favorite pick, like that's

the direction they should go. Um, let me pull this up here really quick too, because I have a bad habit of forgetting somebody something obvious. But yeah, I don't think it's one of the three people who have qualified. I don't think it's Zelena. I don't think it's Becky. I don't think it's Zoey Stark. I think it's EO Sky or, as you said, Bailey. Yep. I need a personally, I could use a longer break from Bailey being involved in something meaningful. It just was damage control was

so awful. They clearly want to get to EO and OSCA and I'm entertained by that. So yeah, my heart says EO, my head says Bailey. All right, I can go with that. So yeah. On the men's side, speaking of which we've got riddling Corbin. I assume I will win decisive um and then and you know, we talk about Riddle maybe turning heell if he wins money in the bank. But oh, wait a minute, so it's I want to make sure it's Butch or Baron Corbin. So

yeah, I'm looking at Wikipedia now. Butch and Baron Corbin have a qualifier and SmackDown. Riddle is listed as Matt Riddle or TBA, so they don't know he's acrona either. Oh, you're right, that's why. Oh yeah, that was confusing on my spacing hair on my on my browser. Oh interesting, Yeah, so you're you're right, and and I'm wrong in Wikipedia's right, and I just read it wrong. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, this is confusing. So I can always get thrown off by the way

they list at on Wikipedia every every year. It's it is logical. I mean, it's logical. I just screwed up. So yeah, Ricochet versus Shinska versus l A Night versus sent Olseska, bar or Mustafa Ali versus Butch or Baron Corbin versus First Yeah, Matt Riddle or a TV announce So they haven't announced Riddle's opponent, but they have mentioned he's going to have a qualifying match, so that's why it's Riddle or someone else. Okay, that'll make

sense, So it might. Analysis stands though, if Riddle wins money in the bank, that could be the conduit or the path that leads to a heel turn. If they want to swerve me with the idea that Riddle's gonna cash in on a secondary champion like a gd idiot, and they do. They're gonna do this for this second year in a row, and it actually

turns out he's cashing and unset. Yeah, more power to them. Yeah, I just were They lost me last week when just planting the seed that he might cash in on Gunther. No, I didn't like it last year. This now that there's two world championships, get rid of that. That's just so dull. You have money in the bank and you're gonna cash in for the US or Intercontinental title where they end up having like an open challenge

every three weeks. Anyone, Well, there is that. I like the idea of Gunther going my title is worth a money in the bank, cash in because I have brought prestige in respect to it. But it doesn't mean that Riddle should choose that option. What I like about it is it opens up the possibilities of who wins money in the bank in the eyes of the fans when you're debating who's going to win, because you would go, well, there's no way that wrestler or that wrestler is going to get a match

against Seth or Roman. But I could see that wrestler challenging Gunther or theory, and so at least while watching the match or thinking about the match going into it, you can imagine more people winning, which, by the way, what you know, that's the problem with Royal Rumble is you can eliminate twenty six out of thirty people as winning. So I mean, if you're at all kind of clued in on things, you know on average. So this the positive of it, even if they don't do it, is it

makes it seem like, oh, maybe Riddle will win. We won't catch it on Seth, but maybe he'll try to win the you know, shut up Gunther once and to me, that's just not a positive. I want this to matter. I don't want this to be for a secondary trinket that gets again, it has open challenges left and right. So if you're gonna do this, do it right. Yeah, no, no, I get

the point you're making. The idea that the Intercontinental title would be worth cashing in on and putting that out there has a positive, but the downside is it is the workman title. As they say, it's the one that gets defended a lot. Why would you wait? Why did you go through all the money of qualifying and winning money in the bank and then catching when you could just get a title shot because you asked for it on Twitter? Yeah?

Yeah, and then now it's like the second working Man's Championship. You're telling us the World Heavyweight Championship business. I know. I didn't like that either. I don't have two workman titles on the same brand. And yeah, come up with a new term. Hey guys, it's Mike McMahon from the All Elite After Show. Every week Andrew so Check and I break down a w on our free Bwtwarts podcast. We've been doing this show since two

thousand and sixteen. That's right, we're on our fifth year. When we started the show, back then, we were talking Best Impact Wrestling, and we still talk about them from time to time as well, and over the years we've branched out to also discuss MLW and of course, the main event of our program which is always the latest going on in a e W. Again, the show was called the All Elite After Show with Me, Mike McMahon and my partner Andrew so Check. You can check us out as part

of the PW Torch Daily Cast lineup. You can subscribe to our show in all of the Daily Cast shows just by searching PW Torch on any podcast app, and of course you can listen ad free with a PW Torch VIP membership. Okay, so, so among the candidate's, Rick and SHA's not gonna win, Um, no, Sho Commerce's not gonna win. No, Uh, must Ali's not gonna win. Nope. Um, he probably won't qualify either. Pribabe Santos who wins that? But who knows Mustov is a good

person out of the match just for exciting excitement. And then Butch and Corbon neither of them are going to win money in them. Well, I guess that maybe there's a story arcras baron Corbyn losing streak and then he cashes in on and the NXT champion dotive them ideas. I'm sorry, but you could see Corbin cashing in on the NXC champion to become an He could just ask for a title match, but I'm gonna cash in or the NXT champion.

Yes, I'm just trying to exhaust all possibilities here. So if Riddle qualifies, I think the top candidates to win among those listed is Riddle or La Night yep. Um, I just don't see sent. I mean Santel escar Bar wins, He's gonna have to challenge Gunther. He's not gonna beat Roman. Nobody buys that. They're not gonna give him a pay per view match against Roman or pl E Cashion. Um doesn't make sense. So and then you just have the X factor of the TBA, which is Bronson. Read

you're you're saying, um. And and so Bronson is an intriguing person to win because as we talk about the depth for Seth Bronson, now you know it depends. You know, the cash in isn't like winning the Rumbo where it guarantees you a pay per view title match that we hype for a month. Um, it's it's the opportunitist sticks sneaky way to win, and if you don't win, you get made fun of. So there's some some bankage that comes with winning. Money in the bank. But not cashing it successfully.

But Bronson read Riddle in La Night. Are they the top three? Yes? Yeah, yeah, I think Riddle should be the favorite at this point because I am hoping like it is a swerve, right, they're gonna bring up intercontinental title, so you're not going to be thinking about it when he goes after seth Um read, I would, I would show if I'm doing confidence picks Riddle one La Night to Bronson read three and then everybody else. Yeah, yep, all right, M very good. Um shifting back

to to A A W four A momentum. The The framing of aw's talent roster is it's super deep and there's just not enough TV time for them. Who do you? Does anyone come to mind right away? As okay with the additional show this is this is the list of of men and women, but maybe but whatever, any wrestlers who you think, yeah, this is their chance to shine and get TV time, like Ricky Starks comes to mind.

I don't know his contract situation, and maybe they're hedging on him because he's friends with Cody and they expect him to go to Blough is paying the top people really well, but they don't want to renew contracts at a high level, and they don't want to go and spending spreeze and people are expecting cuts. So who knows, right, But yeah, but Starks is like the goal, you know, sort of the go to example that somebody you're like, oh, they should just be putting him on TV every week.

And and I don't mind building up Starks and having him, you know, be a top heal or or a co top baby face, you know, kind of like Cody and Seth are sharing the raw spotlight. If you want Ricky and Punk to be like the top two stars on on Top two baby

faces on Collision, I'm fine with that. And then you can kind of keep the core people on Dynamite who are on there, because it does seem like Collision is built on at least the early indications the spirit of the show is, yeah, a little bit of the outcasts are the people who were wedged out of getting the TV time that maybe they deserve. So who do you look forward to in an ideal situation getting more of a boost with the new Collision show. I sure hope they have something for Big Bill, including

a name change. Oh god, I still love Tasking. You know, they call big Bell. People ask it all the time because his name's Bill and he's big, Like, yes, that is true. Doesn't make the name good. You realize that if Kashi is his own logic, his name would be a little Peter's short, Peter shark, Peter. Wow. I gotta hear from Taz on that who you're gonna hear from him? Sorry? Man, Taz is the best color commentator in wrestling to day, isn't he? No? Who's better? Um people are not gonna like this. I

am very highing what Corey Grays brings to the table. Yeah, I think that's fair. I don't I don't go. I don't gaffa at that. UMAs gets a little too chummy at times where I just like to see him lean in and be the heel and really defend the heels and thinking he just kind of goes back and forth the seams and then it doesn't help that Tony Chavin. Tony's a beloved figure for good reason, but I just I don't like him on commentary anymore. I'd love to see him just be an interviewer,

maybe even replaced Tony Khan making some of those announcements. He just doesn't really say anything that matters. Well, I think Wade Barrett might be better than Tasks too, But I was just trying to get the heat off you for saying short Oh Tah is the best in the business. I do like tas on commentary, but saying he was the best was truly a strategy to just offset offset, offset his feelings being hurt over the other thing. Um. Yeah, so so wrestlers getting a boost from this. Um. I

mean, I don't think the list. I asked the question a sort of a load of question because I don't think the list is really all that long of people. I think Sworth, Strickland, Ricky Stark's powerhouse Hobbes. Um, I don't know, Big Bill. Um. There there was somebody else that I always point too, and I can't think of who it is at the time my head. But I'll get the roster up. I'm just your favorite. Keith Lee might be, I don't know, he might actually work

more. Maybe not Jay White, My god, I mean, yeah, I don't win or this is so pathetic what they've done with him. I want can we give up on the dream of Ring of Honor mattering and get Eddie Kingston back involved in this please. I would like that yep Ethan Page should mean more than he does. They got to end this silliness with the contracts and Matt Hardy once and for all. Daniel Garcia, if there's a draft, please, I don't care if that's his way out of Jericho Appreciation

Society and Sammy, please do it. Jericho Appreciation Society is awful and needs to go away. The only people benefiting are Jake Hagger, Mattman or Nangela Parker, and it's just holding back the people that actually might make this company some money someday. I would like I would have liked Daniel Garcia to stay

baby face yeah yeah, and gotten more of a push. And that's kind of a bummer, you know, just I mean, like, I don't think the Acclaimed should go a week not being on TV, right, So if if having four hours of primetime a level television too to our shows per week allows them to be as much of a weekly fixture as the Bloodline and Seth and Cody and and Riha Ripley and Damage Damage Control like w W,

it's like whoever's getting pushed? You see them every week and there's developments and there's a cadence to it, and I just that's why I'm pro softer hard brand split with ROSTERSP with a W, because it's gonna force Tony Kahn's hand in a good way to go. All right, we need to have a density of pacing to the storyline where there's something going on with he acclaimed every week for instance, he claimed, doesn't it's not just them, um,

where you don't go weeks out of time not seeing them. I mean, it's problem with j White, It's a big problem with Ricky Stark's, problem with Powerhouse Hobbs. There's just this list of people who are there and available, but you go weeks not seeing them, and then they show up again and you're or they were only on rampage and you're expected to care and the crowd isn't caring, right right, Yeah, man, looking at it this roster, there are some I would like to see the gun and sink or

swim. Maybe they're not ready yet. I'm not saying it's like once and for all with that. I like them, yep, Um, I didn't. They didn't blow me away though during the Runners Champion Bandido. I should be doing so much more. Another reason to just abandon what ring of honor is currently, Tony said, he went out of his way to say it's not developed. Men will look at who our champions are. I would counter

that by saying, yeah, look at who your champions are. I want to be excited about Ray, Phoenix and Pent and winning titles that I care about, and when I see them already holding kitles that they don't care about,

it makes that kind of difficult. Absolutely. Thank you for listening to the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast. Don't forget to also subscribe to our Red Logo show, the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Shows, featuring our live post shows, which you can download and listen to on demand at any time, covering Raw, Dynamite and SmackDown throughout the week with rotating guest co hosts, live callers and emails, plus on site correspondents who talk to us right after

they leave the building on Monday, Wednesday and Friday nights. That's the Waight Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show. Just search Wade Keller, look for the Red Logo and click subscribe. It's free range, Cassie, He's getting a lot of TV time, and I think he'll continue to get TV time, He's respected in the locker room. He's like this super level headed guy. He's in his late thirties. He looks like he's in late twenties, but he's been around, he's seen a lot. And Tony really likes him, and

he really likes Chuck Chuck In and Taylor and Trent Bretta too. And in fact, he told me that, you know, like he's just really there's guys he just trusts. You know, a lunch with him, that's great. Right. So here's an email on Orange Cassidy. Joe B in England. I was listening to Mike and Andrew on the All of the ad after show. They discussed Orange Cassidy and both seem tired of his matches in his Gimmick, a view which was also shared by a caller to the show.

My friends who I watch aw with both said during Double or Nothing that they're sick of Orange Cassidy. This led to a debate as I personally have a different view. I think his matches are almost always good and fun. Nobody else sells as well as him during matches. I also think he's given some meaning to a meaningless championship. His gimmick has evolved over time. The announcers push it as mind games now instead of laziness, which I think is intentional

and I think works. So I want to know your thoughts. Do you think it's time for him to change up his gimmick and do you think he should be on TV less? Jason? So, I think it is time for him to make a brief exit. I think that Cassidy has definitely breathed new life into that championship that at one point was right there with the WWE twenty four seven title and Impact Digital Media Championship. Is that the worst in

wrestling? I liked the story they've told with him. They hit a bit of a bump in the road though, that match that he had with Kyle Fletcher. The story is that he's so weary and he's vulnerable. He's a rare, vulnerable, maybe faced champion. I really like what they had done up until that point. Then he starts kicking out of like three tombstone pile drivers and everything, Like, I thought this guy was weary, but it was a bump in the road. I thought last week was the week to

change the title. I think they're waiting a week and it's inconsistent with the story, the peak of this weary champion story. Really, Oh my god, he made it through facing twenty men in this Battle Royal. He held on, so he should have been an extremely vulnerable on dynamite, and instead he just worked a tag match like any other tag match. There was none

of this weary Champion stuff. And now they wait a week to go to the obvious matchup square of Strickland. So I liked the story overall, but yeah, just lately there's been a couple of hiccups there that have taken a step back. But I think he's done a spectacular job of making that championship means something. And the only reason I say it's time for him to go away is we have seen a lot of him on television. They've opened so

many shows with him. I'm not saying it needs to be monks or anything, but let them drop the championship and you know, let us miss him for a few weeks. Yeah. Yeah, I assume there's you know, a story that they're telling that we have to see through before we fully judge, you know, whether this is overexposure or actually a necessary part of the story they're telling, which is him just wearing himself out by being, you know, defending it so often. And I'll I don't have a strong opinion

either way. I mean I might after the fact if they just don't have a good payoff to this, and they just you know, they're doing it out of laziness, because you know, you can put him on um, if you can put him on TV and have a good match, and I know obviously Tony prioritizes that very much. Good matches and someone who can just go feel you know, ten to twenty minutes of TV time at the start of the show. Um, And you know, I believe he does good

numbers. Um. You know, Tony doesn't put people on TV as off in as Orange Cassidy if he doesn't draw good numbers. I did. I wish it would he kept puttinghim in the opening spot. I think that. Yeah, Tony is happy with whatever he's producing. Yeah, yeah, I just I just wish we got more of a definition of the title not being an international title. Look at the big word and it means the whole world, and they just called it the AWTV title. Well, but then he

have the TVs and the T and T titles named after TV networks. That's even more confusing when you have a TV title and also two titles named after TV networks. How about they just like come up with new titles they rebranded international. I can cosidering what it was Wade, the All Atlantic mess. I'm content with the International Championship, but I do like the TBS and TNT thing doesn't irritate me as much as it does most people. But that's just

it. It irritates a lot of people. It's time on the aw front. What do you think they're gonna headline Wembley with like what two or three matches do you think we're heading towards with keeping in mind all out it's going to happen right afterwards. Well boy, we're getting one of them and maybe they'll maybe they'll go back to it. We're getting one at Forbidden Door. They did officially announced Kenny Omega and Will asprey for the IWGPUS Championship at Forbidden

Door. Ye, and that's a match. Given you Osprey's an England English guy, I would think that they're going to have him on the show in a prominent position, and he and Omega work fantastically together. I'm already looking forward to this Forbidden door way more than last year's because they're also they also what was it Danielson and Okada, which I mean two fantastic matches. Yeah. Um so as much as I mocked the matches Matches and nothing but Matches

crowd, I'm all in that mode for this show. I'm really looking forward to it. Ye, but yeah, it's if it's not. I mean, you would think they're gonna have punk on that show. Um M, I don't know what headline. Yeah, that's the tough part is you're you want as many people to watch this wherever the hell it is. I still kind of suspect it'll be on Max, but don't know that, And so you want to produce a great number there. But then you gotta you're asking

people to turn around and pay another fifty bucks the very next weekend. Yeah, I don't know what you do. I don't. I don't either. It's not great timing if that's if that's what they're doing. I still like m jaffins sting, but I just haven't seen hints of that, um right in the last couple of weeks, So I don't you know. Yeah, I'm I'm I'm I mean, they sold all these tickets, So Tony Kanna has no incentive to deliver the greatest show on Earth. From a drawing standpoint,

he just hasn't said up put on a good, solid show. But if he wants, you know, he doesn't want to make it seem like it's a B show either, and have the crowd. That's the thing. Yeah, you gotta go back by the way. That is My concern about Collision is just having decent crowds. They need to They need to go not to fifty two arenas per year now and draw a good crowd that looks good on AVE Live national cable, but one hundred and four. Are there enough

cities that they can have good looking crowds and good looking buildings? Are they going to start looking minor league? I would those Canadian numbers scare me a little bit now, somebody, Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's just Canadian fans are gonna like, well, are we even gonna get this show? I don't know. I want to see what kind of numbers they do host Canada for Collision, because to me, that's one of the pros of

running Saturday night the night out for people. Would you would think it's easier to get people to go to your show on a Saturday night than it is a Wednesday night, but it so far. I mean, maybe it's just you know, Canada for whatever reason, isn't turning out, but it's it's not going to be as much of an issue elsewhere, but maybe it is. I just don't know if they should be alarmed by that. You know,

that's kind of the tricky thing with aw right now. If you want to be a glasses half full person, well you get point to the success of Forbidden Door and All In and then the massive ticket sales in London, and then you can easily start to rationalize, well, if the numbers weren't what we hope for for the last pay per view that damn www ran that weekend and they ran an XT against us, it's easy to kind of justified

thing. If you want to be a glasses half empty obviously point to the ticket sales and other markets that you know are not London and you're not doing a big co promoted show with New Japan and Toronto. It's uh. I hope Tony's approaching this in a very even keeled manner all of it, because I don't think there's reason to panic, but I also don't think that.

I mean, you should certainly celebrate what they're what they've accomplished in London, that's awesome, But I wouldn't sit there and fool yourself into thinking that I've got this red hot product. Because London is coming close to selling out Wembley Stadium for our first show in the market. It's awesome, but it's not that, you know, we're not just we're just not seeing it across the board in the US and now in Canada either that this is translating into Wow,

this company's got momentum. Yeah, yeah, I'm the Well, it just goes back to viewership numbers and ratings and what Tony's going to do. Does he you know, does he get desperate in order to try to get numbers up, um, you know, for the sake of getting a better TV deal, or does he just go what will be will be? But I'm going to pace myself smartly. I'm not sure. Support us on Patreon starting at four dollars and ninety nine cents, get these shows, add free

and bonus vi IP content. That's four dollars and ninety nine cents. On Patreon Patreon dot com slash pwtrg VIP. That's Patreon dot com slash pw torch vi ip. That is the quickest, cheapest and easiest way to support us and enjoy these shows with a streamlined listening experience the wait Keller post shows, podcasts, and the pw torch daily casts, plus some random VIP bonus content. What do you think of christ letter being Jake Cargo Mixed feelings. I

wouldn't have done it that way. I would have built to that, but as I think it was will Or Jake pointed out when we did an audio coming out of that show, that show did need a moment, and it was a moment. I would have followed up the next episode of Dynamite with stat Lander making a reference for a match. If you want Lee to think as a viewer that this is a big moment, then do something you don't normally do. Go to the women opening the show, have her coming out.

Crowd's gonna be red hot at that point. It's gonna come off really well. So I thought that was a bit of a mistake, But yeah, it's just boys sixty wins and then it's over without really getting that match. I don't know if they felt like they've done a good enough job convincing people to tie of Valkyrie might win that match. I didn't feel like she was going to. So if you're gonna end the streak, stat Lander's a fine choice. And I do like that. It looks like KaiA now is

angry and it is going to turn heel. So I think that sets up a nice program between them and I guess I don't know what comes next for Cargo. Yeah, yeah, I don't know either. Anything else you want to bring up, Jason awwe otherwise? Oh man, let's see. I'm trying to think if there's a well, let me let's play this game between now and the next time we do this in three weeks, you know, if everything goes according to schedule. Had a big announcement each and every week.

I thought, you're gonna say a seam Punk still on the roster. Active that's a good one too. I think Seampunk will be on the roster. I am I am being optimistic that he I'm answering a different question than you ask. I want to think as that's not very fair, go for

it. But I think I think Sampunk is going to not make news and he is going to be a productive, low drama member of Collision, and that Tony con will value and cherish that and not want to mess with it and will accommodate Punk in in ways that in the long run may or may not be good. But I think I think Punk really wants to repair his reputation and it wants to the best way to show up the elite and prove that he wasn't the problem they were is to have a drama free locker room

that with him as the veteran leader. So we'll see. I mean, I'm not confident in that, and that's part of it. I'm being more hopeful than you know, putting my money on it. But honestly, I

think there's reason to believe that will happen. But it is CM Punk, and he is wired differently than most wrestlers and how he reacts to things and taking things as a personal affront and not biting his tongue when he feels that there's an injustice or something needs to be said, and that can be valuable, and it can also, as we've seen, create you know, meltdowns

and be counterproductive. So I'm not I don't want to sound naive because of Punk's track record, but maybe, just maybe there's good reason to believe he has the incentive to not lead to drama. As for Tony con announcements, I think he will make a big announcement the next so I think there's enough going on. He'll be on tv X three weeks. I do well. The Punk thing is going to be fascinating that first promo, whatever it is.

I assume the first night, ye, because everyone expects him to talk about the one thing that I think he's probably going to have a legal document saying you can't talk about and it is Punk. So even if he signed something, there's still a fifty fifty chance and he talks about it anyway. Yeah, if he doesn't, what does he talk about? Well, what every progresler talks about. I have a goal and here's how I want to

achieve it, and here's what I stand for. And then somebody interrupts or he says something that leads to another wrestler saying something that then leads to an issue. You know, he needs, he definitely needs to have a journey and a mission, and that's what he needs to talk about. And that mission should not be. I'm gonna show up the elite by being well behaved and having no drama in this locker room. And we are a locker room,

and we all wear the the whatever colored jersey's collision. It's like, I don't want team dynamics of us against them. I don't want him alluding to it. I know people are intrigued by that. Just Punk's talented. I me personally, and I think it's and I do think it's best for business in the long run. Stay away from the controversy. Don't remind people of it. I know it's going to be on everybody's minds. I don't think I just excuse the expression, but I don't think that's a pimple that

needs to be popped. I think if you let it heal itself off to the side, don't draw attention to it. I know everybody wants to don't just tell a great story. And you know, like they say, living while it's a best revenge. To me, telling a great story and having great matches in the cannon of a w is the best revenge and the best rebuttal to everybody who is anti punk, and I think he'll win some people over a year from now. If he does that, I think some people

that don't want to poke around. If he just build up a good track record for the next nine twelve months, I think that can repair are some things and put pressure on the other side to live up to the standard he sets. I was told by people in aw they didn't think Punk would be back. I don't think Punk would be back if they didn't have a second TV show. I think the only reason Punk's back is because there's a second

TV show. And maybe the only reason there's second TV show is because Punk is healed up and ready to come back right exactly because I have not sensed a lessoning of the animosity and acrimony in Punk and everybody else. And I just don't know how Tony. I don't think anyone thought Punk could coexist sadly on Dynamite given the acrimony in that locker room. I think having a second show is the only reason that it's it's economically feasible to bring him back and

not just settle. But he wanted to get paid, and if he's healthy and they aren't gonna and if they decided not to sue him for breach, then they kind of had to find a way to get their money's worth out of him, So it would have been awkward no matter what. But you know, they could have done every other week Punk and Dynamite than the Elite, than Punk than the Elite, and Moxley and whomever else. But I don't know. I think everything you said there is the right approach, but

I just don't know that it's going to be received. Well, they better have a hell of an initial angle with him, if you know it, or one hell of a promo whatever, because I think people are expecting something and if they don't get it. What I would do if I learned Tony Kahn's position, I obviously wouldn't want him going out there be like you get one jab, and I'd warn the elite that it's coming, because I didn't have any issue with the elite in Chicago doing what they did, and I

know Punk and Company did. To me, It's like, well, what were they supposed to do? The crowd is sitting there going booing the hell out of them. They're just supposed to pretend like nothing's happening. Of course they're going to feed into it, and so yeah, they got their's Punk gets one little he could even clear it ahead of time. You know, Tony can play go between between the two camps. Get it out of the

system, then do the angle and move on. I'd like Punk to come out there and go I know you people are I know a lot of you. I want a title, and I got injured and I had to relinquish the championship. It got stripped from me. I want to rebuild my record, and I want to beat MJFF for the title, and I specifically want to beat MJFF for that championship. But I got business to take care of

first, and that is beating some top names and staying healthy. And I want to as a quick aside, I don't want to draw out of attention to this say that a lot of you are aware that there are some issues that I had and I didn't I'm not proud of some of the things that I said after my title win at all Out last fall, and I want to apologize to Tony Kahn, and I want to acknowledge that even if there's some people who I still feel wrong to me and deserved some things to be

said to them, I didn't need to say it publicly in the form that I did, and I apologize to the fans for that, and I want to close the page. I want to turn the page, close a book and move forward. And I want to have great matches and I want to show that I can still be the best in the world. Something along those lines. To acknowledge that, you know, the pink elephant in the room and then let the fans know I I just I'm ready to move on. But but also an apology to Tony con I think would be in order.

I yeah, I mean, it's at least it's acknowledging things. Um, I don't want what you want him to take a dig at Kenny in the box in his promo. I mean, maybe that feels more authentic, but to me it also feels like, seriously, just tech yellow. If there's the if there's the pettiness there that hey, they did this to me, why, I don't know, I get to respond, Okay, go ahead, punk, you get one, but we're going to approve it ahead of

time. What is it? Get it out of the system, and then move on and do the angle and then you know it's it's just you exist in the same company but on different nights. Um. So yeah, It's not like I'm sitting here no, no, man, I can't wait to see Punk Fighter back. It's not that I just think there's this expectation that he needs to but heypken say some of the things that you mentioned. Maybe that will be enough warsome for most of the fan base. We'll see.

Do you remember when Hulkogan shocked the world of form the New World Order? Or when Stonecoat Steve Aouston passed down on the Sharp Shooter to break the Hitman heart. I'm Torch contributor Frank Pettianni, and I've reviewed these shows and many

more for my exclusive VIP podcast, Pro Wrestling Than and Now. Together with a rotating chair of co hosts, we go back ten, twenty, even thirty years, review pay per views from top to bottom, talk about where the wrestlers were at the time, and compare what took place then to what is taking place now. You get exclusive access to these and other podcasts as part of your PW Torch VIP membership, which is compatible with the Apple Podcasts

app. Visit pwtorch dot com slash Go vip for details and sign up for him. I think taking the high road and then just going out and producing just having good, good, fired up promos that seem current for twenty twenty three, not trapped in two thousand and nine or two twelve. It's a different environment. He's in a different company, he's got a whole different set

of wrestlers to work with. He's got a proof he can, he can you know, fit in and thrive in this environment and reinvent himself as Chris Jericho successfully done so many times. And I want that to be his focus. I don't need He's not fourteen. He doesn't need to settle a score on national TV by taking a getting the last word in. I just to me, you know, if living All's best revenge, taking the high road is the best is the best statement that I think he can make at this

point, which is I'm over it. But is it going to be intriguing for the audience? Are you going to be getting calls at night if you're doing a post show from people going yeah, I mean nice to Punk's back, but nothing fun there. But what if this all didn't happen and he showed up and he got along with the Bucks and Anny and Hangman and Moxie and everybody. Are we saying punk is useless and not worth a contract.

No Punk was hired and people were excited about him, not because of the pipe bomb promolo, not because he's going to be this cantankerous locker roomforce. It leads to all kinds of conflict. People are excited because he's a good promo, a good wrestler, arguably a great promo, a great wrestler even

at his age. Did happen, right, But my point is if you strip away the stuff that did happen and you let him go out there and be the guy that they thought they were signing in the first place, don't you think three months from now fans and be like, yeah, I'm glad we moved on from that other junior high school crap. I do again. It's my concern coming out of that first night. I think it's a very

important show for them. You can do what you're saying, but you better have a hell of an angle that gets people hooked, because if they come in looking for that the punk that you don't want to see, with him firing back, delivering receipts, brother whatever you want to say that, and that's what they're looking for, and they don't get it. But they also don't get something that grabs their attention and gets I'm imagining it could be a

bad thing for that show. So yeah, I'm not saying you're saying Punk needs to fire back. It's not that. But if again, if it's if you want to, if it's like, Okay, let him get it out of his system one jab, then you're both even because I do it, you say it all the time. This is CM Punk, different type of person. Yeah, And I think we could say the same about the

Elite. These are different personalities. I think most people would have gotten together and sat down in the damn room by now and tried to talk this out, and instead you have some that just refused to. And I mean, I'm hearing some of the just most ridiculous things about PTSD claims and like from

a fight in a locker room. Grow up. What about a three part pre tape sitdown series which seem Punk and Jim Ross or Chivanni or who whomever with Punk that's outside the canon, the narrative structure of the show that use to satisfy to scratch that itch that fans have about Punk in the Elite, but it's out of the context of the wrestling ring, the wrestling and to be stage and he punk has this a parallel thing going on with Hobbs or Starks or Andrada or or Samoa Joe or or Jericho or whomever, um,

because then you have more control. You go punking and say it. But legally we need it prerecorded and we might add it. But if you want to say and again, I think the best way to do it is to say, I'm not going to get along with everybody in this. You know, I'm I'm I'm not the type of person who as rotation for getting along with everybody, and I know I'm not the easiest guy to get along with. I think some people cross the line and did some things they shouldn't have

done. They disagree, but we're here to entertain the fans and that's our

job. But I do want to apologize for taking away from from distracting from a good, a great show with some of the things that I said in the venting that I did in the agenda that I had going into that Q and A, and I just I want to, you know, like, I think maybe you can spread that into a two or three parts series that draws ratings, But also, you know, don't seem patty, don't seem like you're just out to settle scores and get the last word in and or

escalate things and overshadow whatever story you're telling. With those people that I just mentioned, who are the options for punk on this new show? I mean, I think the idea is you want to dissipate the anticipation for a Punk Kenny or punkin Bucks match. Oh yeah, there needs to be a big

angle that night with somebody. Yeah yeah, And it might not seem bigger than what people quote some people want, but to me, you play long ball, and long ball is telling stories in the cannon, the kfebe cannon of a pro wrestling show like the Bloodline is doing, and just have Punk go. I'm not comparing myself to what's going on anywhere, but but I want to. I want to be in the conversation as being part of the best whatever words you use, the best stories in the best matches that gets

the most fans most emotionally invested. I want to be in the conversation as being the center of that in this industry for the next for the next half full of years. Yeah, hey, long ball sounds nice. This is collision is to me. It reminds me in a weird way of when WWE brought back ECW in that one wrong move, you might just send people away. It's Saturday night is such a bad night, and if they don't get

what they're looking for a Night one, I'm moving on. I'm not saying they're gonna have zombies or anything like that, but yeah, I really think they need to put everything they have into getting people excited right out of the gate about this show. This needs to be a special show. It just can't be a bunch of matches and a punk promo. They really need to start telling some stories and hook people right out of the gate, or they will run the risk of they get the same thing on Wednesday, just with

different wrestlers. And it's not even just Wednesday they're competing with, it's every other night of the damn week with all the wrestling that's available. So yeah, it does have to be punking the elite. But whatever they do, they need to connect on Night one or there is a real risk there that whatever that number is the first week, there's a sharp decline the second week and they don't get those people back. Are you sure you're committed to ruling

out zombies though, Oh well, I'm looking at the roster. Um there's a dark order dynamite. Why can't there be a zombie faction. Matt Hardy could become a zombie. Well, it would have to be a zombie who has contract issues and losing his contract to another zombie, I would think, because that seemed the only thing that Matt Hardy knows how to book these days is contracts. Yep. I'm looking at the roster to see if anyone strikes me as a zombie. Well, there's that that Trench guy. Yep,

he could be it. What happened to him? I don't know. I mean that we're gonna start finding out if these people are still around. I guess yeah, Um, yeah, Trench and Parker Boudreau, you can. Luther and her Pentaco could maybe be good zombies. Sure, here you go. Maybe, but Luther, Yes, Luther's perfect. Oh, Griff Garrison, I think as an Uh could be a good zombie. I think if he's dressed up in torn clothes and weird makeup. I don't know what he's

back on our wish this week or did see that? Yeah, let's turn him into a zombie for I like it, Yeah, Tony nice. Maybe. I mean, like what if QTV just becomes like zombie it's just all they're all zombies all the time. Um whereas uh um, holy crap, Ryan Pillman juniors down the roster. Yeah, um abbadon, she could switch. She could be the zombie leader. Yeah. I think she is a zombie, isn't she. I don't know. I honestly don't know if she's

meant to be a zombie or she's described as a living dead girl. Okay, well that's a zombie. Yeah. Yeah, then maybe maybe Layla Hurst even a rob zombie song. I think Layla Hirsh could be a good a good female zombie. Yeah, I mean on the tiny side for rigial Hubbie. I guess they come in all shapes and shine, that's the thing. Yeah, all right, Jason, we kind of wrap up there if you want. I'm just I want to make sure we don't leave out any well.

I mean, thunder Rosa looks like half zombie, that's true, but I don't I don't want it to be a zombie. We get, but then you have people biting people and turning into like you can't start off just like two people, but then they start biting people. And maybe was it Luca Soaurus who lost a thumb to Arn Anderson like the skin he did? Yeah, so maybe lucas source turns into a zombie and that's how this all

starts. He becomes zombie Sours or Luca Zombie. I don't know which, which you would choose, But are you down on that pairing as I am lord Low and Arn anders like, it's like, I'm just don't know, hanging out with this crazy mega uncle. Yeah exactly, I'm just done with Arn. I don't, I don't whatever our every every time? Aren't says something, And it's like the cringing moment on Jim Ross commentary, but worse. Yeah, man, I love Darn back in the day. I yeah,

I don't know. I always assumed he'd end up with FDR and things will go smooth, and it didn't happen, And yeah, well get up my TV. Arn. Yeah yeah, arns Arn someone who don't Tony you set a little chat with and yeah, get him up TV. But Wardlow is another guy disappointment as a character, you know, I mean, it's just it just there's not that that hook Um, but we'll see all right, Jason, Um, cool, thank you, thank you. Yeah, no sports talk. There's not much to talk about it. You know.

That's our team's exited in the first and the Twins are in that division. Somebody has to win. But then Luis and in the first round of Yeah hopefully yeah, all right, Well maybe by next maybe by next time or the time after we got some some Kirk Cousin students or something. Yeah, one of these days we'll get Delvin cooked theres. I don't know when the hell that's current? Yeah, really okay, thanks Jason. Well, i'll talk to you in three weeks. Sounds great. Invite you to email the

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