INTERVIEW CLASSIC: "Hardcore" Bob Holly: How stiff is RVD, how he'd react to change in PPV bonus payoff structure, top rope headbutt dangers

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bring you the Wide Killer Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for this week's Interview Classic, where Wade Keller interviews one of pro wrestling's newsmakers ten years ago. This week I interviewed Bob Holly, Hardcore Bob Holly for about two and a half hours. We had live callers, we had email questions. Fascinating show covering a wider ray of topics, including how stiff is Rob Van Dam, How would Bob react to a change in the pay per view bonus payoff structure

during WWE's transition to w Network, How would he improve tough enough? Did he face Southern stereotypes in WWE? His thoughts on the current TNA, the top rope headbut dangers, the move that Harley Ray warrened wrestlers not to use. Chris VNOI used it. I might have contributed to some of his health issues, and Brian Danielson has used it despite you know Bobby's warning signs. That's not a good idea. What did Bob Holly think about it over is

it overplayed? Or is it a serious concern? And much more. This originally live streamed on May ninth, twenty fourteen, and it is today's Wad Keller Progressing Podcast Interview Classic for Sunday, May twelfth, twenty twenty four Welcome

to the p W Torch Live Cast. I am Wade Keller, editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter since nineteen eighty seven and also pwtorch dot com since nineteen ninety nine, the PW Torch apps on iPhone, Android and Samsung's martvs since two thousand and eight, and also host of this to PW Torch Livecast, which is on every day at PW torch livecast dot com.

We've been on the air since the end of two thousand and nine and we have been doing Interview Fry for feels like, Hey, it's about three and a half years now, and it is Friday, May eighth, or excuse me, Friday, May nine, twenty fourteen, and because it's Friday, that means it is Interview Friday. And I am very pleased to introduce a returning guest, one of our favorite repeat guests on the program Hardcore Bob Holly, Bob, welcome back to the show. Hey, thank you, Wade,

thank you for having me. I love being on your show. You know, you guys put on a great show, and I just I'm I'm really glad you guys always asked me to come back on because I really enjoyed, you know, being on your show. You're very kind and we would have you on anyway, but we get requests to have you back on, and it helps give us a nudge to go. How long has it been. It's been a couple of months. Let's give Bob a call because you're

popular guest, so that is fantastic. I do want to note that the PW Torch Live cast is brought to you every day by Audible, a language all kinds of good stuff that's Audibletrial dot Com, Flash Pro Wrestling Torch. Bob, what is we're talking about the vikings off air before I went on the air giving our opinions on the quarterback situation with the Viking straft of the second round. I don't follow college football super closely, so I don't know

a lot about who he drafted, and I've been so busy today. I haven't had a chance to read up on him, but I am interested in you and I were saying, what would be nice not to be like the Packers in any other way except one way, have a franchise quarterback who's around

for ten or fifteen years. Yes, Yes, And hopefully this guy that they picked up, you know, he comes from Louisville, and I'm hoping he's the guy because that, you know, like we said earlier, that's to me, that's what the Vikings have been lacking, is a good quarterback. You know, They've they've had great running backs, they've had great receivers. You know, they got a good line, and the Vikings have always

been hit and missed that. You know, they'll make the playoffs one year, than the next few years they'll they'll flounder and then they might make it again or whatever. But I really believe that, you know, the quarterback is the key position that they need. And I'm hoping this guy is the guy. I can't remember his name right off the top of my head, but I hope he's the one because he didn't you say he went in the

second round, wasn't it. Yeah? Yeah, second round? Yeah, So that's that's pretty good, I would say, you know that bad. Absolutely, I'm hoping, you know, they get they get a decent quarterback where they can stay in contention year after year for a few years. Because see, for the people up in Minnesota that don't know that, I've been a Vikings fan, you know, for ever since I guess I could understand football, ever since fourth grade when I knew what football was. You know,

I've followed the Vikings all of my life. I'm a huge, huge and if you go on my Twitter page of course at the Bob Holly, You'll see I have an authentic Vikings jersey that I bought and that thing wasn't cheap. But that just shows you I am. You know, I'm a huge Vikings fan. Very cool, very cool, I am too. I was a season ticket older during that fifteen and one season, and for a

few years before that, I wasn't just a fair weather fan. And for a few years afterwards, I don't know, Jason Paul and I had season tickets for I guess seven years. I could be off by year either way, but those are a lot of fun times. And that Metrodome is gone. I know you'll be in town here next month, Bob, because you'll be working in an indie show up I think in Duluth, and you'll be

a yeah, go ahead, is it June seventh? June seventh, yep, yeah, talk about that for a minute, then I'll talk about the dome. What's the indie date coming up? Ju June seventh and Duluth, Minnesota. It's heavy on wrestling. David Tabit runs it, and this is the first time me being you know, wrestling for them, so and I'm looking forward to it. I'm wrestling a guy named Luke Hawks, I guess, and I guess he's been going on Twitter running his mouth about me,

saying he's gonna whip my ass. And you know a bunch of people have said that and they've they've tried and failed. So this is just another one of those cases where I guess he's probably gonna fail. So but anyway, you know, I'm really looking forward to it. David saying he's a really good guy from whatever. From what I understand, I've never worked for him before, but I'm really looking forward to it. And I hope everybody you

know comes out and supports the show excellent. So that's into luthon June seventh, Heavy on Wrestling is the Just search that in Google and you'll find Uh, I'm sure you'll find the match listing in more details on that. As that date approaches, when you come to town, Bob, you're gonna notice there is no Metrodome anymore. It's a big pilot rubble. Yes, it's

gone. And you know. And that's another thing too. I meant to tell you everybody is I've never been to a Vikings game and we're gonna We're trying to work it out this summer where we're gonna go to a Vikings game and hopefully I can because I've never been. I've never been. Well, it'd be fun to go to the University of Minnesota campus to see a game this year. Then that'll be an A chance to go see an outdoor football game will be cool. Yeah, yeah, and uh, hopefully it's very

cool. I hate weather. I do want to note we have a new sponsor on the show. This show is now sponsored by Nature Box ordered. We're about to go to a commercial break. Whyless into commercial breaks when you can go vi ip and experience our shows with the ads and plugs removed. PW torch dot com slash go VP. That's PW Torch dot com slash go VIP for full details, or go to Patreon Patreon dot com slash PW Torch. VIP ratestart as low as four dollars in ninety nine cents to remove the

ads and plugs through Patreon. Full VIP membership starts at nine dollars in ninety nine cents to treat yourself to a streamlined, AD and plug free listening experience with a VIP or Patreon membership dot com slash Pro Wrestling Torch. We're gonna be taking phone calls for hardcore. Bob Holly, a long time veteran of

the WWF and WWE. You were there for the transition and name. I had a s PW Torch article go up earlier on the website that asked, you know, who's the longest tenured wrestler in WWF, and you know, besides the Undertaker, because obviously Undertakers the longest in terms of not having gone somewhere else and left or retire and made a comeback just incredible. Who's on the all star panel mentioned? Steve Lombardi might qualify just because he's always you

know, he's been working for him and makes these cameos. Kine obviously is right there with Undertaker. I don't know if you count Steve Lombardi. I think it's kind of stretching it, but Glenn Jacobs Kane is there. But Bob, I mean you you're one of the longer tenured guys too. How many straight years did you work there? I believe it was like fifteen, almost sixteen. Yeah, Shan Michaels has been there a long time too now, but he left and came back, So I don't know if that.

You know, I think you got to beat according to our criteria because we're talking about uninterrupted years. Oh okay, okay, yeah, yeah, well yeah then uh yeah, I was close to almost sixteen years. I do believe, if I'm not mistaken. So yeah, I think if you're if you're out for more than a couple of years, then that breaks the streak. If you're out for you know, nine months with a knee injury or

something, I think you're still with the company. Michael. I mean he had a clean break and really did retire and you know, with all the back issues and came back. But yeah, you definitely have tons of experience. You put out a fantastic book last year, and that's the reason we had you on the show the first time we have recommended. It's so highly on the show. But we have new listeners all the time. We're growing all the time, and I really do want to plug Bob Holly's book.

Bob talk about it a little bit, tell people where they can order it, and I'll talk about it afterwards too, But give it a good plug because it is. It is absolutely highly recommended if you're fascinated with hearing a

story from a rent. Here I go into a plug and I was going to throw to you if you're interested in hearing, if you're interested in hearing a wrestler, tell it like it is, who is behind the scenes for as long as Bob Holly was, and to do so without the cloud of worry that, oh, this is going to be filtered through Vince McMahon's desk before WWE publishes it. Then it's not that Bob went out and just was,

you know, like it was. It's not like some old tom Zinc blog online where it's just paring them apart, or some old Ultimate Orior blog or just pearing Vince apart. But it isn't. It isn't. You can tell it's not filtered with the thought of ooh, I better check myself. You know what, Evince think it's a really fair balanced, hard hitting, honest book and it covers so much territory and you'll learn so much about the brawl for all and what it's like to just what it's like to be in

the locker room. So many cool insights from Bob Holly. I'm appreciative that he wrote the book, and I'm so proud to plug it with no endorsement deal or anything like that, just recommending it highly. Bob, tell people about where they can find it online and or you know it's probably in bookstores too. Well. I number one, I appreciate your endorsement way because that

that means a lot to me. You know that means a lot. And I know you wouldn't just say that just to just to make me happy, but no. I you know Ross Williams, who co authored the book with

me, He's the one. He's he's the magic behind the book. You know, I just told my story, but he put it down in my words to make it where when you were reading it, it sounded like I was telling you the stories and and you know, like like Wade said that, you know, when I wrote this book, you know, we did talk about, you know, hey, maybe getting WWE to endorse the book or you know, help us out here. But then I got to think,

and well, they're going to cut a lot of stuff out. And I didn't want that because it's it's just a raw book to where it's my feelings how I felt at the time of everything that went on through my tenure at WWE. And you know, and and I think I was pretty fair in my book because you know, take Triple H for example, He's not a favorite person of mine, yet I talk about my dislikes about him,

but I also put him over at the same time. So I'm you know, I'm not just burying somebody to you know, I don't bury somebody to bury him. You know. I talk about the good points and the bad points about the people in there, and you know, and I just don't get on somebody and just and rip them apart. I don't do that,

right. And you know, I give my personal feelings on you know, certain guys, you know, how I felt they were and how they were perceived in the locker room and and things like that, and you know, and I just I didn't cut any corners, and you know, I just I wanted to be you know, I wanted it to be where when you read my book, you weren't wondering, Okay, there's no gray area. You know, it's black and white. And then that's just the way it is, you know, and that's and that's how I am in real life.

And you addressed you dressed. I think all are certainly most of the top controversies that you were involved in behind the scenes, because during your years there, I mean, I had written stories about controversies that you're involved in, and you know, we tried to cover all sides of the argument, but you know, it wasn't a time where you were speaking on record and giving your side of things. This book put a lot of perspective on a

lot of things that that you had a reputation for. And Bruce Mitchell, senior columnists for The Torch, who was not easily swayed or isn't going to buy into a line of bs. He's going to see through it. And he came away from your book going, you know, I looked at some things differently than I did at the time that we were covering it in the newsletter. And I love when that happens in a book, when we can see another side of a story and add light to it and shed light on

it. And your book did that. And see that's another reason too why I wanted to write it, because there was so many stories out there about me, how I am and this and that, and you know, and how I treat people and things like that. You know, the question that I'd like to ask people, you know, when people say, oh, you know, Bob Holly was a bully. He beat people up for no

reason, and he hurt people. Name one guy other than Matt Capitelli that I gave a bloody nose or a bloody lip, or knocked their teeth out or put them out of work. The whole time I was with WWE, all fifteen almost sixteen years, not one person missed one day of work because of me. You know, that whole Matt Capitelly situation, that was a different situation because you know, and I talk about that in my book too, because he was like a fish out of water. He wouldn't sit still.

And I happened to catch him. But other than that, you know, people got to stop and think, you know, when they hear stories about me, Oh, Bob Holly did this to this guy and did this. If that was the case, do you think Vince McMahon would have kept me for as long as he did? No, he wouldn't. If I was that bad in the locker room and treated people poorly in the locker room and bully people around, do you think McMahon would have kept me, No,

he wouldn't have, you know. So it opens up a lot of eyes to you know, the rumors out there that swirled about me for all these years, and it makes you stop and think, you know, hey,

you know, he does have a point, you know. So we are going to talk a lot about current events that today's show too, but we welcome callers calling about anything Bob has kept keeps up on wrestling today, and we'd love to talk to him about Undertaker Street coming to an end, Daniel Brian becoming world champion, lots of you know, the seam punk situation is walking away from wrestling see them punk. By the way, it's probably one who's texting him go wild and that it would be me. So if

he's wondering who that is. He's in town. He's been in town since Tuesday, at least as far as I know. He was in town Tuesday. I think he stuck around for tonight's game at the Xcel Energy Center in Saint Paul. And I haven't only sent a couple of texts, but I did text him a couple of times saying go wild. And he is a huge, huge Blackhawks fan. We actually had a caller on the live cast yesterday Bob say they saw CM Punk and AJ at the xcel Energy Center Tuesday

night leaving the game. He said, because Hempunk has a reputation for not being all that approachable, he did not go up to him. But nevertheless, Punk is a very much a Blackhawks fan. Was interviewed on their TV broadcast, I think the National TV broadcast in one of the opening games of the series, and so he might still be in town. And I am very pleased that he got to see the Wild crush the Stanley Cup champion Blackhawks on Tuesday night. But I think it was four to zero score shut him

out. So that was fun. Yes, yes, but we welcome your phone calls. That's what I was kind of in a long winding way getting to when. Our phone number is six four six seven two one nine A two eight. If you've got a question for hardcore Bob Holly, please call us right now six four, six seven nine A two eight. We do a phone calls. We'll take seven oh two, two one three, three, two oh and six oh nine will be the first four callers that we

take on today's show. Plus we've got some email questions. If you can call the show but you're listening to us live, you can email us at PW Torchlive Cast at gmail dot com. That email address again is p W Torch live Cast at gmail dot com. If you missed last week's show. Jim Ross was a first time guest on the live cast. I've interviewed him

many times over the years for many hours. And if you wondered as a long time Torch reader or you're a VIP member and you've gone through the archives going how did Wade get three and four hour interviews with Jim Ross back in the nineties and in the early two thousands, and how did how did you get Jim to talk so long? Well, you found out if you're a VIP member, you got to hear four hours of Jim Ross's last Friday, and he is He was just a fantastic guest. The feedback on his appearance

has been fantastic. On my twitter feed, which is at v Wade Keller th WA d E K E l l e R at the Wade Keller, people have been raving about it. I've also gotten email emails from people just saying how much they learned about today's WWE and his situation. It's absolutely worth listening to. An hour and a half was on the Free Show, the live cast, and then we did another two and a half hours after that. I figured after ninety minutes we'd get fifteen minutes more with Jim, you

know, maybe a half hour, but we stuck around. He stuck around and we did four hours. So if you're not a VIP member, we'll tell you a little bit later in the show how to go VIP into the show. You know, many others check it out pw torch dot com flash go vip. We have a new sponsor. I mentioned at the beginning. When I am done with this plug, we're going to write to phone calls. But Nature Box. I am excited about this sponsor. Torch. That's

naturebox dot com slash roll Wrestling Torch Bob. I was talking to Steve Austin last week on the phone. We're talking about podcasting and prepping for guests and stuff, and I said I was eating a just called it a trail mix. When he called, He's like, oh, people still eat that stuff. And I'm like, well, no, no, this is this isn't like crap like you get at the at the gas station, and I like describe the ingredients to him. He goes, oh, oh yeah, yeah,

that's good stuff. That's good stuff. I'm not Steve's not endorsing anything. I'm just telling you he endorsed whole food ingredients. And it was just funny because he happened to catch me. My mouth was full when he called him. Were like, Steve, I'm snacking on He's like, what's going on. I'm like, I'm snatch snacking on a trail mix, so excuse me, I can't talk and he's like, why in that crap? And then I finally swallowed the snack and told him and he's like, all right,

that's cool anyway. But I'm excited about nature Box. We are going to announce later on the show too. The winners and Bob, you're gonna have a role in this. You don't know this yet, but you're gonna have a role in who the five people are. Who at fifty dollars gift certificates to Sherry's Berries, they will there were our sponsors the last two weeks head into the Mother's Day. They sell giant, awesome chocolate covered strawberries.

Sherry's sherrys Berries are great. It's berries dot Com. Click on the microphone in the upright corner and enter wrestling if you want to still try to get in on that sale. But we've got five winners and you're going to decide who they are. Oh pressure, yeah, pressure. So we'll get to that. We'll get to that in a minute here. But let's let's do this. Let's we've had a lot of time plugged your book and VIP and

nature box. Let's go to phone calls because we do have callers on hold, and we'll definitely get to the things we talked about also later on. Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts, will come join me. Alan fourrel Over in the Progress Paradise at Pede retorch VIP as we mask on the bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the great matches and shows from around the world, be it US, Japan, Europe or Mexico.

There's always a place for restlings past in the Paradise too, and we've done fun historical shows such as the We Love Liger series celebrating the glorious career of Jusian Thunderlinger and our eye was there when shows where our guests will join me to talk about a classic bout that they were in attendance for. We love variety and you can expect lots of it at the Progress Paradise. Detailed PW Torch VIP subscription information and a list of all the VIP benefits is available

at pww torch vip info dot com. And yes, all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast apps on iPhone and Android devices, or you can stream them directly from our ad free VIP mobile site. See you in the Paradise. I'll start off with a VIP member. This is the VIP Express line Eric code seven O two. This is Tony from Las Vegas. Tony,

thanks for holding what have you got for us today? Hey? Pleasure to talk to you guys, and I mister Bob Polly, it's pleasure to talk to you, and I appreciate all your stackerfices and chasing your dream mom. You know, I've watched basically your whole career in the w w E and uh yeah, I got a lot of respect for you. Man. Well, thank you very much. Man. That means a lot to me. I really it really does. Thank you. I appreciate that. You know,

I'm just sitting on my couch. Thank you for going out and doing it. You know, well, I couldn't do it without you. So just always remember that you guys are the ones that keep us there. So you're the ones that allow us to do it by you know, doing what you do. So it's it's because of you, not it's not because of what I do. So and I appreciate it. Thank you, Oh thank you. Do you follow up with P and A often. I watched some

of it, you know here and there. You know it's it's I tried to watch some of it the other night and I I had to turn the channel. You know, I'm sorry. I just you know, I'm being honest, and uh, you know, they just I just don't think that they're utilizing their talent like they would. You know, I agree, Tony, Tony, Tony, I want to just jump in, go ahead and ask your question. I'm not going to put you on hold because we've gott

a lot of wind feedback I think from the mic on your phone. So I ask you a question, I'll put you on hold and we'll bounce back to you after Bob answers, Yeah, I apologize. I'm in the middle of my poor out right now out here in Vaga. So my questions do you think James Storm, it's looked correctly, uh, could be a viable face of the company for TNA if they booked do strong hearing hair going out

to bounce for glory, possibly crowning in this champion. Then uh, do you think you can move the marker a little bit, maybe start running some money for the company. And then my second question was when Cody Rhodes was first pat up with you in the WWE, Uh, you know, did you form any advice or odd teach him anything that you may see him exemplifying nowadays. Answer to the first question, I think James Storm, you know, he could I think he could possibly carry the company because he's he's to

me, he's a great character. He's he can talk on the microphone, and that's the thing, that's the main thing. If you can talk on the microphone really good. Which that that was something that I was not very good at, and I regret. That's the only one of my only regrets is you know, I didn't get the opportunity to really talk as much as I wanted to because that because I knew that's where it was at. And I think, I really think James Storms, you know, could carry the

torch for that company if if it was done properly. I really do, because he's a great talent and he's a great guy. When I met him, I thought he was one of the nicest guys I ever talked to, you know. So, and to answer your second question, Cody came from a wrestling family, you know, and I and I always you know, Dusty came up to me and said, you know, help the kid out, you know, give him advice or whatever. And I'm sitting there thinking, you know, how can I give him advice when Dusty Rose is your

father, he knows, you know, Dusty is the man here. And you know, out of respect for Dusty, I I just I really didn't want to, you know, step on his toes, even though he did tell me, hey, you know, give him advice, you know, and I helped him along here and there and stuff like that, But I

really I didn't. I didn't over abuse you know, my power as far as is helping him, if you understand what I'm saying, you know, because Dusty, you know, Dusty watched him, you know, watched over him pretty closely, and you know, and Dusty could correct everything that he did. But I mean I helped him on the fly during certain situations and things like that. So but hopefully that answered your question very good, Bob.

I want to note since Tony brought up TNA, which just got ratings in while you were talking, and they did a point eight three rating last night for the lowest rating of the year, which was back on April seventeenth, just not not good. They just keep dropping. It was barely over a million viewers, and Spike is just gonna want better than that. And the deal's coming up this fall, and there's a lot of concern, you know, letting Christopher Daniels go. He's you know, he sounded surprised.

Jason poul and Chris Shore on dot net Weekly, which I was listening to earlier. Today, we're talking about, you know, wrestler getting little worried in TNA and starting to ask around and looking for that that the soft place to land if there's somewhere else to go. And you look at Dixie Carter being a central figure, and you know, no offense to Dixie because I would say this regardless of how good a performer she was in her role.

And I want to leave that out of this because I want to say I am so over heel authority figures in wrestling and at my interest level in TNA since Dixie Carter became a central figure. First of all, I just think it's a little unbecoming for the actual leader of a company to put themselves on TV that much. Unless you're Vince McMahon and you're feuding with Steve Austin.

I think that makes so much money. That's the exception. But Bob, Dixie Carter as an authority figure put out there the way she is, it reeks of let's put the person running the company on TV out there to keep them interested and excited because they're a movie star. So maybe the family will keep finding money into the promotion. We've seen that so many times over the

years. But even that aside, I just and I wrote about this in this week's Progressing Torch newsletter, which is available for VIP members online in PDF format and all text format. If you're a paper magazine newsletter type person you like to go to the mailbox and have something they're waiting for, you can be a print subscriber also, and will send the paper copy to you for

just seventy five cents a week. By the way, if you're a VIP member, you can tack on a print subscription for just seventy five cents a week three bucks a month. And I wrote about it in end notes, I'm just ready for hill authorities figures go away, not just because I'm tired of them, Bob, but because I think it's bad for storytelling when you don't have this sense that somebody's looking out for a fair, even playing fields. Because if you don't have that sense of an even playing field, then

it doesn't matter if field are breaking rules. And if it doesn't matter if fields are breaking rules, then fans look at them and go, well, of course they should break rules, because nobody's gonna punish them for it, and thus they're looked at. It's the smarter of the two, baby face or heel, who's smarter. The ones cheating are the ones who aren't when you don't have a baby face authority figure to what actually enforce the rules.

So the dumbasses, excuse my language, are the baby faces for not breaking rules because there's no ramification. So anyway, I got my little rant out of the way. What do you think of that, Bob? I just you know, I don't know if they're trying to use MVP as somebody to kind of be like the equalizer to Dixie as far as the baby face rule. Yep, you no, But I just I you know it see the way Vince did it, Vinc because Vince knows the business. That's the thing.

Vince knows the business. I don't think Dixie knows the business enough to know how to get it over. You know, get that, get that, you know that he'll figure over properly. Yeah, And you know, like I said, it's just my opinion from what I see. And you know, and don't forget Jeff Jarrett's got his deal coming up to Global Wrestling Federation. So he's Yes, he's going to be taking a lot of guys too, and that's gonna leave Dixie with nobody. And they're what they're trying.

I think what they're trying to do is to keep payroll down. Pay these guys that are green that don't nobody knows, because they'll just take whatever they can get just to be on the or they'll they'll they'll work for free, g just to be on TV. You know, these new guys and stuff. And I just I really think tn A is you know, they always say they're not in trouble, but I think they are. That's just from me. That's from somebody on the outside trying to look in and and

and see the writing on the wall. But and a lot of things they do too is a carbon copy of WWE. Yes, it's amazing. I wonder if that's meant to be a joke that we're supposed to be in on Like I watch that, and I mean especially with Eric Young, but so many things, Bob, you wonder if that's like if I don't even understand like why they do they think it's a good idea or is it a practical practical joke on Dixie thinking she'll never she doesn't watch WWB, she'll never know

that our booking is just a derivative of what ww's doing. Or do they think they can actually pop ratings by emulating the number one company? Yeah, I you know, it's it's just, you know, if they were gonna make Eric Young world champion, that's fine and all. And you know, I'm for whoever deserves to be in that position. Okay, somebody who's who has busted their ass for all the years, put in the work, put in the road worked and everything to be a world champion. I'm all for

that, you know. I'm you know, like shame as he came in in six months and he was world champion. I don't like that. I don't like that at all, and a lot of people don't like that. But that's that's not what we're talking about right here. I just had to throw that in there. But you know, at least till Daniel Bryan's not world champion anymore, and then make make Eric Young champion, because it just looks like, hey, you know, wow, I got this great idea,

Daniel Bryan's champion WWE. Let's make Eric Young r Champion, you know, and it's like, at least wait six months down the road if you can, you know what I'm saying. That's that's my opinion, you know, because it just it looks too as it is. Everything they do it not everything, but a lot of stuff looks like it is a carbon copy. And you gotta also understand a lot of their writers too, came from WWE also, So you know John de Burrick from long time, you know,

guy in the production side at WWWE. Are you surprised John ended up as head of creative and TNA? Was that something that in your experience, he was known to have a knack for or an interest in in WWE during his many, many many years there. Oh my god. I was just shocked that he wasn't with ww anymore. Yeah, yeah, I was, you know, I really because him and Kevin Done. Kevin Dunn is the producer of Raw of actually the whole you know, he pretty much runs the

whole show. Yeah, anybody knows what Kevin Done is. He's Minched, his right hand man behind the scenes, and John and Kevin were like best buddies, you know, And I just it was it came as a total shock to me when I heard that he was with TNA, and I'm like, what happened, you know, and so I you know, and I never known him to be a writer or anything like that because his position with WWE for a long time was to sit you know, he would sit out

in the crowd and talk to the fans and say, what do you think about these guys out there in the ring? You know whoever, let's just say, you know, you had two guys out there in the ring.

John's jobs, everybody understands, was to ask the fans their opinion of each guy that was out there, and then he'd give a detailed report of what everybody said at the end of the night too, and Kevin you know that and that that was his job for a long time, and they tried to make sure that he was never seen on TV, like when we did Tough Enough. When we were doing the Tough Enough shows, they really didn't want him to do those because he didn't want fans to know who he was.

Oh wow, interesting, Yeah, because he was a plant out in the crowd just just to get everybody's opinion, you know, on on the talent, you know. And then that's how a lot of times, that's how they would decide what they're gonna do, if they're gonna do some something with somebody or whatever. But yeah, that was that was that was his job.

And they were really reluctant to let him do, you know, or actually be on on camera with tough enough because that that they didn't want people to know who it was, because then if you knew who he was, and it'd be you know, it'd be a celebrity instead of honestly answering exactly. Yeah, So you know, that was his job, and that's why

I just hit total and it totally shocked me. And but I you know, I don't know what other role he took n WWE, you know, because I knew he worked in the production side on some things, but mostly he was just out, you know, out in the crowd, just asking people at TVs, hey, what do you think of this guy? And

you know this guy bit you know. And then, like I said, I was just in total shock when he went to TNA, And I, you know, I had no idea he had writing capabilities, you know, because that that to me, that takes respectial mindset to be able to write write stories, you know, yeah, you know, and that well and that's the thing. It's like, you know, a lot of people, a lot of people criticized the writing and stuff like that. But people have

to understand that's not an easy job to do. It's really not. Because you've got you've got The way it's supposed to work is you're supposed to write six months ahead and work backwards worked. You know, let's just say it's you're looking at take a target date of October, you start, you work from October back to today. That's how you you're supposed to write a storyline, you know, And it's not easy. And you know, I know I've been critical of storylines stuff like that, and I quickly forget, Hey,

that's not an easy task, especially working prevents, you know. So but you know, because I know people are critical, you know, as far as the storyline's going on in TNA and stuff like that. But it's just it's it's not an easy job. It's not. And that's that's what

I look at a lot of times too. It's like, you know, cut these guys from Slack because you know, these are guys maybe that don't have writing experience and they're trying to get in the groove and stuff like that, and you know, TNA has survived for ten years, you know, so hope, you know, I don't want to see them fold because we

need that competition. The boys need that competition, you know, as bad as some of their shows can be, you know, I just I wish and I do hope that you know, something turns it around for them, you know, because now we're gonna have you know, Global Force with Jeff.

We're gonna have you know, three companies and stuff, and that'd be so great if all three companies can prosper, you know, wwri is that's you know, but the other two companies, that would that would make me happy to see that for the boys, because the boys are the ones who go out there kill themselves night after night, and they're not the ones, you know, it's it's almost a thankless job to them when their paychecks come

in the mail a lot of times, you know. So you can support us on Patreon and get these shows with ads and plugs removed, The Weight Killer Prossing podcast, Weight Keller Prossing post shows and the PW Torch daily cast throughout the week with ads and plugs removed, plus a few bonus VIP shows

throughout the month for just four dollars and ninety nine on some month. Check it out patreon dot com slash PW torch v i P. That's Patreon dot com slash PW torch vi IP and you can also upgrade to other tiers and receive even more benefits through Patreon. And I I really want to see both companies, especially T and A, do well, because in that way, you know everybody, everybody's happy that. I think the key is we want

to see good wrestling do well. And I think what's frustrating is when you see some bad ideas that are repeated over and over again, and people like Vince Russo and you don't have to comment on this spob if you don't want, but people who have a proven track record of not necessarily having good ideas they once had translate in modern day environments and modern current circumstances be given chances over and over again, and there's just some ideas that it's the time has

passed and it's time for something new. The thing I give in Throuci credit for all the time is more often than I than I criticize them, because criticizing them is so we and everybody does it. And the thing I give him credit for is he was an impetus for change at the at the cusp of the Attitude air on the Monday Night War in the Monday Night Wars. He's the guy who Bill Watts, when he was working for WWE as an

executive, brought into U and Bill was there a very short time. But he brought the magazine writer into the booking meetings and said, I want our magazines to be currents who. We need our writer to be here so he knows what to publish and what notts publish, who to put on the cover, what not to say, what to say? And Vince Russo couldn't shut up. I mean, believe it or not, Vinceruzeo couldn't shut up at

those meetings. And he's like and he completely start he started speaking out when all the yes men around Vince protecting their jobs, where Yespin' Yespin's this is great, this was great. That's a great idea. And they were stale. They were ideas that weren't working. And Russell was an impetus for change. He said, I have other ideas. This is ridiculous because Vince had

nothing to loose. Well, he had something to lose his job, but he could help himself, and Vince McMahon respected that and he brought him in and granted Steve Austin a few weeks back, was on the show right after Wrestling. I fact, it's his only interview. I think he's done after WrestleMania other than his own podcast that I know of, And he was reviewing Mania and somebody called an asked about Russo, and Austin said he liked me.

I had some good ideas, but he needed editing, you know, he needed to have somebody to throw out the bad ideas and keep the good ones. And I look at that, I'm like, why Vince Russo now, twenty years later, is the is the problem not the solution. We need somebody else to come in and shake things up. As Jim Ross talked about at length last week, by I think Bob going back to some of the fundamentals, and I want to get into it, but on the VIP

after show because I want to get to phone calls. But I'm marking this down for us to talk in the after show. Which is the babyface heel conundrum right now where WWE is swinging and missing when it comes to getting the reaction that they're looking for. Their heels are getting cheered and their baby faces are either not getting reactions or getting booed. And I got a few key

points. I want to bring up some of them I wrote about in the newsletter this week with you, and I'm really curious your thoughts on it, so we'll we'll tackle that in a little bit. But next I actually want

to Bob. Have you determine who are five winners are. I've narrowed it down to twenty of and what we did is ran a contest last week for Jim Ross favorite Jim Ross announcing moments or quotes, and people on Twitter did a hashtag included hashtag Sherry's Berries and put one of their favorite Jim Ross catchphrases or moments and I read some of them to Jim Ross last week and he

reacted to them on the live cast. I have listed twenty of them in random order, and I want you to pick five numbers between one and twenty and they are going to be the ones who I then will name winners, and you can you can do fifteen to twenty or you can do one eight six. I'm poisoning the well here. But you can do it randomly or whatever. So go ahead, okay, shoot yep, so go ahead, and you literally just give me five numbers between one and twenty. Oh okay,

I'm sorry, my man. Seven, okay, fifteen, all right? Five, okay, that's three, let's go with. Let's go with three, all right, and nineteen all right. So these are our winners. I will be tweeting this also so the winners can get back to me. If you do not get back to me, then these this fifty dollars gifts crick for Sherry's Berry's which is good through for several months, will go to somebody else on this list. But number three, the winner is Joey

splashwater on Twitter. So yeah, so his his one of the winners. And number five is Andy Tranberg, who goes by the handle at NDT tran twenty one. He's the second winner, and number seven is Sean Ryder who goes by at R Y d E S. And number fifteen sliding down here is Big Dame DCM at Big Name d CM, you are the fourth winner. And number nineteen is John Bolan at JW b O l I N. I will be tweeting those out also, but you are the five winners.

Congratulations of the fifty dollars gift certificates. You participated in our oh I guess our contest last week to name a popular Jim Ross catchphrase. We read him to Jim Ross on last week's show. He commented on him it was really fun to hear him talk about the origin of some of these phrases or remember the moments. And now hardcore Bob Holly has chosen which of you get a

fifty dollars gift dificate to Sherry's Berry's. Don't forget. You can still sneak in and get that discount, say forty percent on a box of Scherries Berries. Go to berries dot com B E R R I E S dot com and click on the microphone in the upright corner and enter the code word wrestling and that gives you the discount our discount forty percent off box cherries. Berry's all right, let's go back to the full lines. Thanks for help up,

that was really helpful. Well that's good. You know you've just ruined the day of fifteen other people. I know it, and I'm sitting here thinking these guys are gonna rip me as far they are I'm gonna get I'm gonna get tweets from these guys, and they're just gonna rip me to shreds. They won't know if they even made the top twenty, so I picked the top twenty. Right numbers is randomly next one. All right, well,

let let's go back to the full line. We've got a VIP caller has been on whole patiently, Eric code four one two VIP member Leon from Pittsburgh. How's it going? Lean? Hey, how are you guys doing good? I'm proud to be a VIP member for over more excellent Caller of the Day, Color of the Day Land, Thank you, Hi. Thanks

Uh. I'm first all. I've pyed three questions, but first I do want to mention it to Harcoholly, you're my best friends, say wrestler, and my responsor, Oh, it's just Fay wrestler and needs to and he says halcohol and then I'm like, well why He's like wow, why else he's hardcore? Well tell him? I said, thank you very much. I appreciate that. Oh yeah, my first question. My first question is one of my favorite matches. I would say that I really did enjoy from

your career place your match with Brock Lesner from the Poor Roy Rumble. I thought like, like the lead up to that match was like really good, Like you made like us banish really like into like the hype of the broken Egg, Like how much like you wanted your revenge and everything else. So I just wanted to like, I don't know, like maybe a little back on then how that match went and what do you feel about it? Well, I was just I was you know, I was glad after being off

for thirteen months. I was just glad to be back into a stone, come back into a storyline. And thank you for your question too, by the way, Leon, But I was just glad to come back and be in a storyline because so many times where I've been hurt and I've came back and then they had nothing for me. But and I was really glad it was with Broth, you know, because Brock is one of the top guys.

So that was just it. I'd got a good rub off of him for that, you know, So you know, I just took it and ran with it, and it was fun because they wanted it to be you know, I got to be myself in a lot of the promos and the vignettes to where you know, it was almost believable that you know that we really were going to fight and stuff like that, and that's what made it

fun. And I was just grateful to get to work with him, even though you know, the match was only like eight minutes long, because and it was actually supposed to be like fifteen twenty minutes long, and they but when we got to Gorilla, they cut it, you know, back down to like eight minutes. And I don't know what reason. They never gave me a reason, and they don't you know, really they didn't have to

give me a reason. But you know, I was just glad to be on the show because a lot of times, I don't know if you've read my book, Leon, but I talk about in my book that you know, I was just I was just happy to I was happy to be there, and I was you know, and if you're ever on the pay per views, you know that's always a good thing. And I was just always you know, you always want more. And I again, because I wasn't

really involved in much throughout my career. I mean, during an attitude there I was, but it got to that point in my career where you know, it kind of I was just kind of floating around. So I was very very happy to be in something with Brock like that, and then when it ended, I was just just kind of sucked it. You know, we didn't continue it or whatever, but you know it was it was good for me and I really enjoyed it. So and Bob you wrote a lot

about it in your book too. And so if Leon's friend who is we should ask Leon this before he asked the next question, Leon, has your best friend read Bob Holly's book? I don't believe he bough I'm not even sure he knows about about that. Well, he'll be excited to know the hardcore truth is out there. Yeah, you can tell him about it, because hey, Leon, I talk about I talk about everything, and I don't sugarcoat anything. It's all about my personal feelings, how I feel about

a lot of things, you know. And it's not one of these books where I just people are shreds. It's not one of those. It's a really good read. And you know, I recommend it to you. If I'm his favorite, recommend it to him. He should get it and he can get it at Amazon dot Com. In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch Vip podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly look at this page

in NXT's early history. Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch Vip members. Oh, Leah, what's your what's your second question? Out of pree? All right, that's my second question is I guess it'll be uh

to both of you guys. Me living in Pittsburgh, I got a chance to like run into h kard Angle at where I work at a hospital last year and I asked him a few questions and from what he told me was he is gonna head back to the d dB and hopefully be out one of these to WrestleManias. So my question is when do you think Kardanngle will actually be back in the dB. Do you think it'll be by invest Man thirty

one? And the second part is uh, I think kard Angle is one of the stay of the few wrestlers from like the past that like I never really had like a really in depth like DVD documentary, like he had the Tardanngle to True via Chest which was selyk f. But it'd be nice to actually have like a tree disc or two disc blu Ray actually gets this real life, long depth story of his career and like in depth matches. So what do you guys think about best? Well, thanks, I appreciate the

call. Yeah, I'll stay first. Because he threw the angle thing at me a little bit, I will say, I'm surprised, Bob, And you don't have to take this angle if you don't want or endorse what I'm about to say. But what I heard from a lot of people in Kurt Angle jumped to TNA. And this was people in WWE who they were kind of protective of Kurt when when he was in the company, but as soon

as he left. It was funny everybody said when Kurt was talking about, oh, we're going to get the ratings up to two point zero within three months, and my mouth guards are going to be the biggest thing, and they're like, oh God, when Kurt doesn't have pr people keeping him keeping a lid on what he says. He is going to say everything and anything, and your people are just going to learn after a while. Kurt likes to talk, and a lot of things that Kurt says don't always turn out

to be true. And I think time has has proven that to be correct. And I say that only has a cautionary tale because when we get an anecdote about Kurt talking, you know, to somebody at a hospital about you know, wanting to go back to ww are planning to you know, sure, I'm sure, Bob, that that's something he thinks is something that will happen someday. I think it will too. But let's keep in mind Kurt said a lot of things over the years, and a lot of them get

discredited pretty quickly because Kurt just kind of likes to talk. He's kind of likes to hype things up and be a promoter. But he's just not a source that I trust when I hear him say something where I go, WHOA, there's news. Kurt said that, because I learned pretty quickly once he's out at WWE that he says a lot and it doesn't always so anyway,

that's that's my two cents. You your thought. I have to you know what, I agree with you, I really do, yeah, you know, and I do Wade because you know, look back when he said he that he he went to Dana White and was gonna fight in the UFC and he did the physical exam and passed the physical and all that, and and Dana came back and said that that never happened. He says, never happened,

you know. And I know why Kurt does that. I don't know if he's just trying to you know, I love Kurt to death, don't get me wrong, But I don't know why people talk just to hear themselves. I really don't get that. You know, they they do it. They give you a lot of false hope, basically, a lot of information that's you know, it's just it's really hard to question why he says the things that he says. But you know, he has said some a lot,

he has spoke out and he has you know. So it's the thing is, it's hard to say if WW would even have him back, you

know. That's the thing. You know, has bag Ashn's record, Bob, you know, the the oh I know, you know, the getting pulled over in his car and being arrested and and all the neck injuries and all the pain pill issues, and he's just he's it's it's difficult from a public relations standpoint for WWE to balance Kurt Angle, who and I'll just say it has a lot of the history that a lot of guys who have died have and a lot of people who have who are openly speaking about how they're

lucky to be alive have in terms of having and you spoke about it, it's really tough when you've got neck injuries and your body's beat up, and Kourag's body is beat up to keep doing what you're doing to this forty ish age that he's done it to. It's difficult, and he's you know, it's you know, it's it's pretty well known and on record that he's had issues with that. And WWB doesn't want an Olympic gold medalist going to rehab

or worse on their clock. So that's going to be something that could stop Angle from going back there. Is WWE just weighing the risks versus a reward. I think he'll end up back there, but I think it's going to be a couple of years after he leaves TNA, and you think he's gonna have to stay kind of quiet and stay out of trouble, and then they're going to feel him out first and make sure things are good, and then

they'll kind of do it tentatively. I do agree Bob though, that I'd like to see a good a good documentary on him, and I would hope that we could get at uh some more just introspective truth out of angle instead of just tons of talking from Kurt on something like that, to really look back at the ups and downs he's had. Yeah, because he has a great story. There's a great story to be told his life, you know. I mean, how how many people win Olympic gold medal in wrestling?

You know? Only a select few, you know, And that's he's got a great story, he really does. And you know, like I said, I love Kurt to death, but I agree on every point you made, Wade. And another thing too, is he's gonna have to pass a physical getting into WWE. Also again he's gonna have to go through that. And and I sit there and when I watch him, I sometimes wonder,

how does he do it? Because number one, I haven't been wrestling full time since nine and I know how my body feels every single day now when I get up out of bed, and and I don't wrestle anymore. I wrestle maybe what five five times a year maybe at the most. And it's tough for me to get out of bed in the morning. I mean, I still get up early, and I still work out. I work out, you know, it takes me a while to get going, but I

still work out like as hard as I ever have. And but I just when I look at him wrestling every you know, every night like that, or like he the schedule that he keeps now, I don't know how he does it. I really don't, because I know he's beat up just as bad as I am, yeah, if not more, because he's still wrestling. So I just wonder what, you know, there's got to come a point where he needs to, you know, take he needs to back off a little bit here, you know, because he's going to be one of

those guys. And I hope he doesn't because, like I said, I love Kurt to death, and you know, and I'm just saying this because this is how I feel. I hope He's not going to be one of those guys where when he's, you know, sixty years old and he's in a walker or in a wheelchair, and I hope that doesn't happen to him, because so many guys you see him later on in life and they can't walk and it's like wow, you know, and I don't want to see

him like that. Yeah, there's people who have been on record, prominent names who have said he shouldn't be wrestling anymore. And it's it's wrong to pay Kurt to wrestle at this stage because you're enabling somebody who physically should not be doing what he's doing out there. I do not enjoy seeing Kurt Angle do top rope suplexus. I don't enjoy see Kurd Angle put himself out there physically. For all the reasons you talk about, Bob, he's doing damage

to himself and you know with his history that there's a good chance. I don't mean to catch you off the way. Another thing too, another I should have mentioned this too, But another point is the reason a lot of these guys keep going is because they cannot step away from the limelight they feed off of. That's that's what keeps them going. You know, they don't know, they don't know how to turn it off. It is. Steve

Austin talked about that with me about how it took him. I think he said three or four years to get over the end of his wrestling career because it's what he wanted to do for as long as he could remember, and what he had been doing since he was out of college. And and really, you know, I mean, it's to have to shift gears into something else. You know, Kevin Garnett's facing that, you know, not having a I don't know how he did last night, but I know the game

before that, he didn't even I don't think he scored. And he was in Minnesota Timberwolf, and I saw him in his prime and he had a great run. I think it was in the Old three playoffs with with Spreewell and Cassel, and had Cassell that got injured, the Wolves would have made it to the finals and beat the Lakers. I think most people agree on that and want a championship with the Celtics. But he's put in a law a lot of years since age eighteen when he entered the league full NBA schedule.

Ever since then very few injuries until he you know, until the last few years he's facing that. It doesn't stop for anybody, and that transition is difficult. Everybody talks about that who have been an athlete, and I mean even for you, you know, it's it's it had for as long as you were with WWS. It had to be an adjustment to and some people welcome it. They're just ready for a change of pace, but other people have a tough time adjusting out For you, you know what. To

be perfectly honest, it was not that bad for me. And I'll tell you why, because I knew once I stepped beyond that curtain. When I went after I stepped off stage, I went back to being Bob Howard. I wasn't hardcore Holly anymore, you know. And I know people are gonna have a hard time believing this, but I've never thought my entire career that I was a big deal. I've never thought that. I've always remained pretty humble to where, you know, this is just this is my job,

and this is what I got to do to survive. And I've always separated who hardcore Holly and Bob Howard was, you know, and that's a lot of people have a hard time separating themselves from their character, like kurt Is Kurt Angle, you know, there's but your character is turned up, the volumes turned way up on that character, and a lot of times a lot of people have a hard time turning that volume back down, you know, and they need that reassert insurance from the fans and stuff like that, and

they can't live without it. You know. For me, I was able to step away from it because I've never in my mind thought I was a big deal. Not saying these guys think that they're a big deal. I'm not saying that whatsoever. But in order for me, it was for me that I never thought I was a big deal. And I think that's helped me because when I walked away. Yeah, it did work on me a little bit because I was so used to being gone all the time and traveling

this and that. Then all of a sudden, life just came to a screeching halt. I had to find something to do. Yeah it, you know, to me, it was easy because my hobby is working. My hobbies are working on cars, dirt bikes, you know, being outdoors, being in the woods, living in the woods, and stuff like that, you know, And so that that was my outlet. And a lot of times these other guys, they don't have anything to fall back on, they don't have another trade. I could go if I wanted to go back to

work. I could get a job tomorrow morning if I wanted to, because I'm a welder, a certified welder by trade, So it's easy for me to get another job. A lot of people in wrestling, that's all they know, so they feel like that's all they have. And if they were to quit, you know, they I don't think they would know what to

do. I don't, you know. And that's just my opinion. I mean a lot of guys have retired and been fine, of course, you know, but then there's those few that keep hanging on and hanging on and it's like, like you said, they shouldn't be in there, and it's like, you know, find something else. He can find something else to do behind the camera. Bet Like I said, a lot of guys can't. They have to be in the spotlight for whatever reason. And I don't

know what that reason is, you know. So and it was easy for me to step away because, like I said, I always separated who Bob Howard was and who Hardcore Holly was. I always separated that, you know, and I think that made it easy for me joining us. Hardcore Bob Holly is the guest on today's pwtorchlbcast. You can find this show at pwtorch dot com. Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or AW Dynamite in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts on the show, or a

topic you want us to address or a question for us. Wadekeller Podcast at pwtorch dot com. Wadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If there's anything else going on in pro wrestling that you want us to address on our main podcast during our mailbank segments, that same email applies Wadekeller Podcast at pwtorch dot com. We invite that interaction. Let us know what you think of what we're saying, and let us know what you want us to talk about and ask

us specific questions. Wadkeller Podcast at pw toorch dot com. Let's get a couple more full calls in before we move to the VIP after show. We'll see how many we can get in here and we'll begin in Minnesota. Go wild. This is Ericode three two or three two zero. Please state your name in the city or calling from. I am Carl from lack of Minnesota and I have VIP too. I just forgot the email today. Yeah,

I just noticed that. I felt bad because we missed you on Tuesday, and I know you're on OLD for a while, and so I saw that. I thought, you know what, I think that's Carl. So I'm glad we went to you and I'm glad you hung on. Hey Carl, how are you today? Good? How about you? I'm doing well? Thank you, Thank you for calling in. Yeah, I had to call. I had a couple question a couple of good questions for you. I think we'll beside that. For some reason, I was watching an obscure pay

per view on WW network. I was watching the Dismember too, Dismember something like that, the ECW Elimination Chamber match, and I was if you could uh kind of talk about that. I know it's kind of maybe a little touchy with what happened to Sabu. I don't know what happened, but I was wonder if you could speak on that at all. Yeah, you know, I don't know the exact details of what happened with him. I know when I got to the building, I wasn't supposed to be in, you

know. On my way to the building, you know, I thought, well, I'm just going there just to be there as all, you know, like a lot of times I am. But I had no idea that Saboo got pulled from the show and they were going to put me in, which I'm very glad they did, you know, because I'll I'll take in a second. But I hated it for him. But on the other hand, I was happy for me, and uh, you know, I didn't know what I was getting into with one of those things until I got in

there and realized that. You know, that's probably one of the roughest matches that I've been involved in, just simply because the it's all, I mean, it's completely steel. There's nothing soft about it except for the ring, and most of the lot of the bumps took place, you know, on the on the grating of the steel, you know, of the of the whole dome thing or whatever it's called. But yeah, that that was pretty

rough. But I was glad to be in it, you know, I was thankful to be in it. As far as Sabu, I don't know the details of what happened or anything else like that because a lot of times they keep that, you know, under wraps, and that's just between Saboo and the company. And I mean a lot of you know, rumors come out where they speculate something has came up, and but I can't you know, I don't know for a fact, so I can't comment on that.

I can point to Carl as a VIP member to the Torture news letter that corresponds to the date of that show, and you can read what we wrote at the time about that Sabo controversy. We certainly had a lot of information on that, so as a VIP member, you can see what we had

to say if you haven't already by going to the archives. I had one more question, Yeah, Carl, Yeah, you worked with bubbaat Dudley, if I remember writing a lot, and I was wondering if I know Wade reports that WW doesn't want much to do with T and A guys, but do you think he would have a maybe a home back in WWE, because he's really come a long way since he's been with ww oh my gosh,

Yes, I think you know what. I think he would make Uh he would fit right in with the top guys, I really do, you know. And I love Bubba to death. Me and him have got a really good relationship. And I broke his nose on purpose, well kind of you know, when we we were rolling around in the back in the trainer's room and he was one of the new guys there, and I jumped on his back and kind of give him across face because you know, we were just

playing around and stuff like that. But uh, accidentally broke his nose and h he since to pay me. He's he has yet to pay me back and I'm still waiting on it. But anyway, no answer to answer to your question. I think he would do great because let me tell you something. He has some of the most entertaining promos. I love listening to the guy. I mean, he he's promos I've heard the last five years,

Bob. I mean, I hate to go back further than that because it's whole new terrac you know, it's too big to judge, But really the last few years he has been one of the great heel promos. He knows how to study, heal promo he could do without his getting in the face of fans, you know, rings like that. I don't think he don't wanted to do that. Yeah, oh yeah, I'm glad you say that too. Yeah. I don't like that. He doesn't need to do that

because his promos are so good. He tells a great story. And see, let me tell you something about the promos, you know, And that's something like I've talked about, you know, you and I have talked about it way that that's something I've never really been good at. And the thing with promos is some people have it and some people don't. Some people have to work on it to get better. Bubba was one of those guys that

got the opportunity to work on it. He got better and better. Now to me, he's one of the best out there as far as cutting a promo by far anybody. I mean, I think he can hang with some of the best. I really really do. And he's a good actor. Not everybody's a good actor in wrestling, And that's another thing. There's good promos and then there's good actors who are also good promos. And Bully is

both. Bubba's both. Yes, the Brook Hogan storyline. I was can evinced that that he was a good guy when I was watching that, Like, yes, me, I'm watching and I see it, you know, I see it for what it is. I know it's a storyline, but you know, the way he talked about Brooke Hogan, I was like, man, I you know, if I had a daughter and she wanted to marry that guy, I'd be just absolutely And then he totally convinced me he was just the biggest jerk in the world when he turned heel. He is

so believable and convincing in whatever role you put him in. He's not You can't say that about everybody's real versatile in that way. Oh, I bought into that whole thing with Brooke Hogan. I bought into it. You know. Here you know and here you know, I'm one of the guys. I know what goes on. You know, I know that the deal it's a storyline, but it had me so hooked. I was almost to the point of believing it. That's how good it was. I'm curiously you know,

And that's what you want. You want people to you know, because the thing is, if you can make the boys believe something, then you've made the fans believe something. Yeah, And and and that's a lot of times when the boys cut a promo, you know, it's either you know, you want to do the best job you can, obviously, and and but the thing with the promos is, you know, like me, when I was doing them, when I got to do them, start getting to

do them. A lot is with when I was with Crash, and they gave me little kid bits at a time, which that's that's all I wanted, because I wanted to get comfortable on the on the microphone, you know. And and again that's something you either have it or you don't, or you have to work on it to get better. And I've and I felt like my promos were getting better as time went on, as time went on, and and I really enjoyed doing them. And that's another thing. Bubba

enjoys doing them. When you enjoy doing them, boy, you can you can just go on forever, you know. And that's another thing is you have fun with them too. And that's what Bubba does. He has fun with him, and you know, and then I started having fun with him, and then I stopped doing them, you know, they stopped having do him for whatever reason, because I wasn't in storylines anymore. But my point

being is the more you do them, the better you get. Bubba got that opportunity to do him week after week after week, and now he is one of the best. And and and I can say that you know that he is truly one of the best. And I really believe that. And I don't think he burned any bridges in WWWE did he, Bob, Do you know about any he didn't? He didn't. Yeah, And I think he would be a great addition to Monday Night Raw. I really really do.

I really do. I think he'd be interesting. I don't know how he is producing matches about match psychology, and I don't know how he is about booking. But what I'd like to see him do is bring and like you say, some people have it and some don't. But if somebody has it in them, I wonder if Bully Ray Bubba's not somebody who after his wrestling days are over and he's he's forty two, he's he's he and I

are close to the same age. I think he would have a future being a guy who could work with somebody who has it in him but needs to get that next level of confidence. And I think what I'm not sure of, and this would just be something you'd have to find out, is is he somebody who can look at somebody, listen to a kind of promo and figure out what it is that's missing that they have in them and bring it out. Because some people are just good at what they do, but they

can't help others get there themselves. But he's somebody who's been He was Paul Hayman's right hand man, and he's c W He's active behind the scenes as a producer in TNA. I don't know if that's good or bad as far as his resume goes with some of the overbooking, overbooked finishes that they do. But I wonder if that wouldn't be something for him to try in WWE long term. You know what, I think he can pick a part of promo to help somebody. I really do, because he's he's I've seen him

help people before, and he's really good at helping people. He's not selfish either. When it comes to putting a match together, he is. He is one of the most selfless people you'd ever get in the ring with. I know what's that Oh going no go ahead, jumped in Oh's and you know, and I've worked with him several times and he he is the kind of guy that he works for the match. He doesn't work for him, He works for the match. He knows how to get himself over, and

he knows how to get the guy he's working with over. And that's what makes him so good. You know. He to me right now, he's got the total package of what it takes to be a number one guys. I really do. And I think I think he needs. I think it would be it would be beneficial to him to be in WWE again, I really do. I would like to see him get one good run in WWE. I love that line he works for the match. That is that is

That is such a good line. And there's so many, so many wrestlers, young guys and veterans who would benefit from probably putting a lot of thought into the value in working for the match instead of working for yourself. And how a lot of guys, a lot of guys don't do that. They think it's all about them. How what is a percentage breakdown of guys that you work with or know about? I mean, do you think it's like one third work for the match, one third work for themselves, and one

third don't work for the match with himself. Honestly, I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you I've been you know, Chris Jericho, bless his heart, he will like he is. He is one of the masters of putting together a match. And I love going over a match with him because you can sit he sits there and he articulates and you watch, just watch

him. He walks and talks and he's using his hands, thinking and he just comes up with some good stuff and you know he's he works for the match, But then he works for himself too in a sense, and you have to stop the guy and say, Chris, wait a second, hold on what am I doing? You know? Because everything he's going over it's it's for for Chris. But and that's funny because I don't think he does it on purpose. He just caught up in the moment of creating a great

story. But you know, I've I've had to stop him couple of times, like Chris, well, wait a second, now, when do I come into this equation? And He'll be like, oh, wait a minute, Yeah, you're right, you know, and we'll just kind of start laughing about it. But you know, Chris is really good about, you know, getting caught up in the moment. And but you know, Chris is one he's another guy that's for the match, who works for the match

and not just himself. You know, sometimes you're saying, yeah, he does, he does, you know, and you have to just catch him and say, well, wait, you know, put on the brakes. Let's rethink this because I'm not doing anything, you know, and you know, and then then he'll you know, and I don't think he does it on purpose. I just think because he loves his craft that and he wants

it to be the best it can be. And you know, Chris is really good, but I think sometimes he forgets there's another equation in this match. And uh, but you know, he's you know, I'm not I'm not knocking on. Don't think I'm knocking on him. I don't want people think I'm knocking on. It's just funny how he does it, because you

know, Chris is one of the guys that's for the match. It's just funny how when I'd go over matches with him and stuff and just watching him because I would get caught up in the moment watching how how creative and how how you know art? You know, it's an art to him, and it's art to every It should be an art to everybody that that does it. But it's just it's it's something to watch Chris Jericho go, you know, in his mind, watch how he articulates everything. It's fascinating to me.

And that's why I brought it up to as another reae because it's really fascinating because he's he's really good at what he does. But you know, talking about you know, working for the match and everything, and I just thought that was a kind of a funny story I wanted to bring up about

him. How you know you have to stop him and say, well wait, you know, but anyway, yeah, a lot of guys some you know, a lot of guys believe it or not, they don't get it, you know, and you have to insert yourself because a lot of guys too. That's another thing. When you're going over a match, a lot of guys will just start calling everything and if you don't speak up, you're

gonna get left out. Yeah, you know, because a lot of guys just think for themselves, and yeah, not always somebody standing there like, you know, babysitting the match saying, oh, fifty to fifty or you

know, this has at least be sixty forty. You know, it's up to the rest or sometimes to fight for their fight for their spots, and fight for their time in the match to shine, right, because when the agent comes to us and said, this is what we want, this is what Vince wants, you guys, go put it together and let me know later on what you're gonna do. So, you know, you guys get together, you throw something together. Like if I'm going over, I've always

gave the guy more of the match. I've always done that because if I don't make him, then who did I beat? And a lot of people forget about that because they want to go out there and just beat the crap out of somebody and beat him. It's all at the same time, and it's like that doesn't do anything for you. You know, you've got to make the guy before you beat him, because then you beat somebody. And a lot of guys coming up they don't understand that psychology, you know.

They just think if you go out there and win that you're going to get over, and it doesn't work like that at all. Just because you win doesn't mean you're gonna get over at all. I believe that was about matches on television too, and I think WWE's gotten into the business of presenting matches, but I don't think they always do a good job promoting matches, hyping

matches ahead of time. I think when somebody wins a match or is competitive and loses to somebody who's a big name, if that match got hyped ahead of time as a big deal and the announcers treated it like it was there

was something at stake, and they announced it ahead of time. Like a couple two mondays ago, they announced the usos are going to be defending the tag titles, and they mentioned it at the start of the show, and I applauded because when you say the tag team titles are going to be defended and it's one of the top things you talk about, it makes the championship seem important, the Tag Championship, and it makes the ustos seem like stars,

and it made the match feel more important than when it was just thrown out there. So what you say within a match is absolutely true. But I think it's if you step back too. It's up to the promoters to make sure that TV shows are structured in a way that every match that happens, when guys are going out there and putting their bodies on the line and somebody's getting a win and somebody's doing a job for them, get the most you can out of it by making that match team like a big deal.

Part of what undercuts that, Bob, is a lot of just jabbering about things other than the match and snickering and the direction of announcing and the way it is gone has been so disappointing over the last several years, but we're getting more complaints about it now than ever. Bob. When you watch Rono, do you kind of shake your head at the direction that they've chosen to go in. And I'm not blaming the announcers. They're doing what they're what

they're produced to do. Right. Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me Jason Powell, host of the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom podcast. Each week, he'll hear the latest news and analysis for Me and my team and Pro Wrestling don Ned, along with other pro wrestling media members, plus the Pro Wrestling Boom podcast features long form interviews with notable names in the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast, and all your

favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at PW boom dot com. Once again, that's pw boom dot com. Well, you know, and the thing is, too announcers have the liberty to say what, you know, a lot of things that they want to say too. But when they start going off in another direction, the announcers the guys in the ring, they're forgotten about. If the announcers don't care about the guys in the ring,

then the fans don't care about them. You know. Jim Ross is one of the masters at making somebody look like the toughest bastards you know, in the world. And he was the best at getting a guy over verbally in the ring. You know, he was really good about that. But I just don't like when you got two guys in the ring and you start talking

about somebody else. I don't like that. You should be focused on the guys in the ring, saying you know, because I've always been taught if you don't, if you're not talking about what's going on in the ring. The fans don't care. Yeah, you know, they're you're teaching them. It's not important exactly, you know. And and that's and that's bad for that character, especially if they're trying if if they're trying to get these guys over that that's the bad part, you know, And because it doesn't do

any good for anybody I had. Okay, there's been moments when when it, fortunately the trend has died down a little bit. Uh, But when the announcers would play into the crowd in the middle of a match, chanting the names of the announcers, and the announcers would stand up and acknowledge the crowd cheering them, Well, Randy Orton was bumping his ass off in the

ring or gold Dust? Was? I think it was Randy Orton against Goldust when it happened, was I just thought, I honestly, I wish that you were in the ring when that happened, because you're the guy who I would have been thinking had the best chance to stop in the middle of the match and walk the ring side and slap across the side of the head the announcer who in the middle of your match was playing into the crowd chanting announce

their names instead of paying attention to what you're doing in the ring. And I'm not saying you would have been unprofessional and done that, but I you there would have been a chance in my heart that I thought you might have done that, and I would have been telepathically rooting for you to do it, to send a message. I think it's so disrespectful to guys in the ring when the announcers did that, and I think somebody put a stop to

it. Yeah, you know, I'm surprised Randy didn't do something about it, I really am. Yeah, that surprised me he didn't, because you know, Randy will tell it like it is a lot of times. Oh yeah, and you know that, you know, maybe he'd said something back, you know, behind the curtain or whatever. But yeah, that's something that I would have probably stopped right there and walked right over there and popped him upside the head and say, you know, yeah, you know what.

I think we would have been cheering your cheering for you on that one, and we would have all hoped it was during Michael Cole standing up, not one of the other guys, because you know, well, it wouldn't matter whoever it was. If it was JB, I'd still smacking. Good for you, good for you, Yeah, believe me. All right, let's I know your time for me to Bob, and I do want to do a VPP after a show for paying customers. But I do have a VIP member. Chris from Oklahoma just called up and I want to get him

in real quick with a question. So, Chris from Oklahoma, thank you for calling from Ericote five at oh please confirm it you and what have you got for Bob today? Yes, this is christ from Mklahoma, and thank you for picking my call absolutely, thanks for calling it. Thanks for a VIP membership. Yeah, how are you today, Chris? I'm doing really really good. I have a question about Tess and what are your thoughts on t enoughs and what they could do and what they differently than in past years

and stuff. Now. I think it's changed a lot. I liked, you know, I liked the first concept of everybody living in a house together, you know, being together twenty four to seven. I thought that whole dynamic was really good for the show created a lot of you know, interest, a lot of drama and stuff like that. Well, I guess they did that on this last one too, didn't they wait, didn't they all live together? Yeah? I didn't see the last one. Yeah, yeah,

that's right. Yeah, wait a minute, I did see some of them. Yeah, you know, I like the way that they do it, you know, it's it's I think what I would do differently is I would, you know, have them all live in the house and maybe travel together up and down the road doing shows here and there and seeing what it's like traveling, you know, being new in the business, traveling in a

car. You know, you had you cram five or six people in a car and drive for four hours, you know, and then you get back home at two or three o'clock in the morning and then get your assup out

of bed and start training the next day. You know. I think that would be a good concept, And that's I think that would add to the show, so people could really see what what it's like, you know, because today, you know, they just see everybody living in a nice house and they get to train and stuff like that and see a little bit of drama here and there, and it's kind of a glorified deal, you know, and it's I just think that would add to the element of the interest

of the show is to see these guys just crammed in a small car together going to a show wrestling in front of you know, ten, twenty thirty people. I think that's part of the heat that the guys from Tough Enough take is they just kind of get this red carpet treatment because WWE wants this kind of glossy show. But I like the idea of and you'd probably have to be a van with a cameraman as opposed to a car because you probably want to film what's going on. But it doesn't have to be a glamorous

fan. It can be a beat up. It can be that van where if you see it backstage, you know the windshield's going to be broken, because there's always the oldest, cheapest car that gets beat up in those backstage scenes, like the like the eighty six tourists on ROS this week. It

was probably a four tours or something. But still and and then like, yeah, make them put the ring up before every indie show, make them ticket down and put them all in the worst motel and you know, three to a bed with night vision and you know they got it, and give them a stipend of like three dollars, you know, like Steve Boston talks about Tuna Fish out of the can on the road, like that's a more interesting show. And yeah, that would take the feet off the guys.

Yeah, because that's what it's about. Yeah, you know. And then you know, and like they've already somebody's already done the grocery shop and form in this house and they've got everything they need have them you know, have to go to the grocery store, you know, just the be more realistic, like what would we have to do if we were on our own? You know, I think that's how it should be. I think that would I think that's that's a you know, recipes are a great show in my

eye. You know, maybe they can throw something out there. I would love to do another tough Enough, I really would, you know. I'd like to say, I don't know, oh Hunter will allow me to do it, but you know I would love to you. You were great on it, a Bob. I know we scheduled ninety minutes. Do you have a few extra minutes for a VIP after show? Absolutely, I've got all

the time in the world for you, Wade. Okay, cool, Well, then let's do this We've got two people have been on hold for a long time, so let's squeeze in two more calls, but we'll make them quick. We'll go to the VIP after show. I've got some hot topics

to talk to you about, including the Undertaker finished. I want to talk to you a little bit more about heels and faces, what I wrote about in this week's newsletter, and I want to talk to you about that that back and forth I had with Jim Ross on Twitter about payoffs, absolutely, because that's a big thing and if you talked about it last week in our for our interview, I want to I want to push again if you're not VIP, when you go VIP, I take it to the next level and

go VIP the place to go p w Torch dot com slash go v I P Let's take two more calls, six O nine and eighty five six you've been on a long time. Then gonna go to what I just talked about, the VIP after show, and there's gonna be some good stuff on the other side of the music for VIP members. Oh and by the way, the VIP shows when we put them up are ad free, So I take out this plug that you just heard in the sponsorship plugs earlier in the show.

VIP members here in ad free show. That is a new feature we started this year and it's very popular. Your time is money, so for ten bucks a month we pay you back with by editing out the ads. All kinds of add free access to our website too, tons and tons of benefits going VIP. Check out details at PW Torch dot com slash go VIP. All right, eight five six, you're up next. You've been out all the while. Thank you so much for holding tell us where you're calling

from and your name. Hey, this is VIP member Wilson Jersey will even here from you. Hey, Bob, I was just calling on a small question. I was just calling because I know you had JR. On last Friday. I believe I was wondering. I guess you didn't get a chance to ask if I know you always say why don't they like band Daniel Bryant from doing the cock group head? But oh yeah, you know what I mean. You know it's caused it so many injuries, and I just wanted

Bob's opinion. Smith. Oh really good question. Yeah, Bob, I remember, I'll put context on this because I've been talking about this a lot, and Will is aware of it. When Chris benwa was doing the top rope head butt, Harley Race came out, what an authority on the diving head butt. He did it for years, not off the top rope, had next surgery and said he wishes he never did the whole the move,

and no one else should do it. It's hard. It's just jarring on the neck the way it's hard to protect yourself with your arms by your side doing that. And he said, ben washingon' do it. Ben Wah had next surgery, took time off and came back and started doing it again. And I have been outspoken against that, and now daniel'brian is doing it. And for so many reasons, including the memory of Chris Benwall in the tragic, tragic and sad way that his life and his wife and his kids life

came to an end. I just don't like it symbolically, but I think it's bad for it shows a lack of acknowledging symbolically and real in real life that of the thousands of moves Daniel Bryan is capable of, he doesn't need to do that move, so I'm against the How did how do wrestlers deal with that in terms of kind of choosing between the danger involved in a move and all the others that you have to choose from. Well, for I

had no idea that it was a hot topic. I really didn't. And I know when Ben Why used to do it when he did it to me, like he actually hits you like you know, and not so much on the head, but like I know, he his forehead caught me on the jaw one night and I saw stars. I mean I was out of it for a few minutes, and so I know he's it's it's there's a really you know, it's really tight, and I can see how people would,

you know, have problems from it. And but I don't understand, you know, because WWE was they were against the pile driver and they stopped letting people do that, and you know, I it's hard for me to say because I don't know why they're allowing him to do it. I don't understand because most of the time they want you to do stuff that not only is safe for your opponent but also safe for you, you know. And but

I don't understand why they're allowing him to do it now. I just it's that's kind of hard for me to comment on because typically, you know, if it's a move that's you know, bad for somebody, they're not going to allow people to really do it anymore, knowing would you know about about being in the ring and being on the receiving ende of the move but also

having neck problems? Is that a diving headbutt? Is that a move that can be done safely or is there a certain amount of impact that's almost inevitable with that move? It? You know, there's got to be a certain amount of impact because especially like if a guy's got really long hair, you know, like Daniel's hair is long, he could get it, probably get away with not touching you. Yeah, but a guy that has short hair, if he was to ever cut his hair, then he would probably have

to physically connect to make it look good, you know. So I just, you know, that's that's a tough one. I just, you know, because a lot of times, a lot of times when you do a move, you try to get as close as possible without actually touching that person, you know, And that's one of those moves where you've got you're coming down from fifteen feet in the air, and that's kind of hard to,

you know, to not hit somebody. You don't have to wait for the way Keller Progrestling post show to find out what I thought of Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show, and it'll also analyze key segments and give my random thoughts quips on what I am watching as

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When a big part of a big part, it absolutely correct me if I'm wrong, because I've never stepped in the ring and taken a bump and I don't pretend that I have, and so I say this with all humility and willingness to be corrected. But part of the goal when you take bumps, any kind of execute a move or take a bump, is to hit a large surface area. And that's why the hands slap the mat. And I learned that in judo when I because I did take judo and jiu jitsu

classes and parate classes. And when you get thrown and I've taken bumps on a judo matt, you you want to slap that mat and spread the impact a diving head butt with your arms by your side, there's nothing else stopping that. You any impact that happens, your body hits something because of gravity and stops and it's not his flat back, it's not his arms, it's his chest and neck in the head. And I just think that's got to be really bad. Just that's got to be one of the worst moves where

you can't protect yourself. Yeah, that's that's something that's and see, that's what puzzles me is why they're allowing him to do it, because that is a move you really can't protect yourself either. Either person's not protected because you have to connect on something like that, you know, because otherwise people aren't gonna buy it, you know, And so that's just that's just it.

It puzzles me that they they're allowing him to continue to do that. So, like I said, guy that you know, some guys, I think I've seen some guys do the diving head but where they land on their arms, you know, they use their elbows in their forearms to take the impact, you know. And but still that's that's that's really really hard to protect anybody doing. You know, I didn't like it a lot of times when Chris would it to me. You know, it was just one of those

things. Back then, it was just you know, there wasn't much concern for safety except for the pile driver. I mean there was, but it was very physical, you know when you got up to the head yeah right, yeah, you know. So yeah, because you didn't block a chair shot, because that's one of the things you didn't do. And I and that's something I've always regretted. It's like I should have blocked it. But then again, you know, when you're in the heat of the moment,

you wanted to look good for TV too, you know. So but it's it's a diving head butt of something that's just really hard to protect. And like I said, when you know, back when I was working with Chris and them, you know, you just took the blow, You just went with it, and just whatever happened ended up happening. Luckily, you know, not too many people got hurt from it. And like I said, I ended up getting a mild concussion from it because you know, he did

catch me in the jaw. He head butted me in the jaw because I think he was going for my shoulder and he got me in my jaw. So I can see how if Daniel Bryant is to do it, you know, on a regular basis, he's gonna miss and hurt somebody, or he's gonna hurt himself or eventually take a toll on his neck, and he's gonna have problems, you know. And the thing is when you're young like he is now, and you're fresh in the business, because he's what, he's

been there, what two three years now? Dan, you know, yeah, yeah, you don't feel anything when you're out there, you don't feel anything. You know, he's gonna start feeling it later on. As he continues to do it. But and he he's rustled a long time before WWE. And that's the thing too, is that's what I worry about, is he's you know, he's not Ray Mysterio. He's not Kevin Garnett well in

terms of the years he's put in and the mile that he has. He's in his early thirties and and headed quickly to mid thirties, and I do worry that there he needs to It's you know, Ray was really smart about it when he got to WWF and or ww and they told him, you only need to have three four signature moves here and pick the ones that has the least impact on your body. And Ray was pretty good about that, and he's made it, you know, to forty years old because of it.

I just want Daniel Bryant because he's so good at so many things. He doesn't need to take that shortcut. One thing that's you know, you mentioned Bob wanting to make it look real. The NHL a long time ago banned helmets, and it's one of the biggest setbacks in the marketing of the NHL was having players have to wear helmets because it made them anonymous, you know, and you know in football it's a little bit different because the game

isn't just constant. You can show the face of the players. Everybody's got different position, different sizes. It's tough in hockey without the helmets. And when you look back at seventies and early eighties hockey, you know there's players that you just know who they are because they didn't wear helmets. But the NHL made a tough economic decision for the safety of players and said everyone's wearing

helmets. And it took wrestling a long time to get there. We put up twenty years ago radio shows John every week, just about every week could put up a show from John Arezzi's Progressing Spotlight in New York. Just last week I picked up a couple boxes of them. I've got over one hundred and fifty cassette tapes from the early nineties of his show, and it's going to take us three years to put these all up, and it's fascinating every

week. I listened to them when I transmoved them from cassette to MP three, and I was just listening to one yesterday, and I put one up for VIP members and we had some indie reports. People call up from indie shows in the Northeast from nineteen ninety four, and they're talking about it and the way they talk about wrestling and the moves. It was so different then, because twenty years ago we hadn't been numb. We weren't numbed to all

these big spots. Nobody had done these big spots before, and they were being glamorized. And I listen now and I'm fascinated intellectually, but I cringe emotionally a little bit at how all of us were somewhat naive to the long term effects of the emerging hardcore era and wrestlers doing so much more, the emergence of Mick Foley as Cactus Jack and what Eddie Gilbert was doing, and

then what Taboo speaking of him did. And I cringe now in retrospect at that what we were embarking on in ninety three ninety four, and what wrestlers put their bodies through, and how differently now we look at it than when I listened to those twenty years ago radio shows. Yeah, yeah, it's

it's it's insanely different. It is. It's it's it's just different, you know, It's just it's how it's you know, everything evolves, Everything evolves, you know, and and if I could do something different, you know, because it's like when you're wait, when you're in the moment, you're adrenaline is just like going nuts, you know, and so you don't really I mean, you feel it, but you really don't feel it. You

know, you feel it a little bit. But now I understand why I shouldn't have done a lot of things I did because I'm feeling it today. Yeah, and I and I think, you know, with the way wrestling is, the guys are doing so much more now, high risk stuff that if they don't slow down because it's they think that these moves is what is what's going to get them over, and that's not what's going to get them over. It's entertaining for the people. That's great, you know, but

they think that. You know, once you do it, you got to keep doing it because that's what the people expect to see out of you. And like the diving headbut with Daniel Bryant, people are gonna expect to see that out of him, you know, because he does it. And you know, I just I don't know, I'm for I'm I'm for the helmets in the NHL. I really I don't watch hockey that much, but I do remember I got on skates one time when when I was a young kid, and I flipped back and hit my head and I wound up with a

concussion. And that ice is like concrete, you know, in those guys even taking punches and shots and you know, elbows and sticks to the head and stuff. To me, that is a wise choice to wear a helmet in hockey, you know. And that's just that that's hard for me to

believe that people wouldn't want hockey players to wear helmets. It's just it's just tough because you lose that that that personality that you can see in the NBA so clearly where yeah, because you don't you you you identify with that player without without his helmet on. But then it's almost like when he puts the

helmet on, you can't see who he is. Yeah, And it's you know, it's tough, and it's tough in a game where there's line changes all the time in a defense and there's I don't know, what is it, four lines of forwards and three lines of defense. So that's twelve plus six. So you got about eighteen players I think on the bench in an a game, and they all, you know, all of them are playing

a lot of minutes. And when you don't get to see the hair and the face and the facial hair and the personality that comes with that, it does diminish the game. But my point with that is the NHL decades ago made the tough call to say, we're gonna bite the bullet, We're gonna take the hit. We need the players to be healthy. And you know, whether it's a players organization or the owners or collect or the media, all of them together just kind of put pressure and made it happen. Wrestling's

been a little bit slower to do that. WWE likes to pat themselves now for their concussion policy and their wellness policy, and it's great, and I applaud them for doing the right thing, but I think some of these things took a little longer than they should have to become standard policy for the sake of the safety of the restorers. I want to talk about a couple things on this in the BP after show. Let's sneak in six oh nine here before we wrap up the free part of the show. Six o nine.

Thanks for your patients and holding. Please state your name and where you're from. Hey, what's going on? Wade is Lewis again from New Jersey. He remember me, but I called it like a while ago. Yeah, go ahead, yeah, all right, and I check it out. I got three things, So Wade, did you just want to you know, take a note? Yeah, yeah, hit us rapid fire and they'll put you on hold the while that Bob answer rapid fire. All right quick.

They're kind of quick questions anyway, Yeah, all right. Now. The first question invols the loss of the titles after I forgot what year it was, but I think it was like ninety eighty seven or whatever when Bob and ex Sean walt Man when pretty much they won the titles and they lost it the next night to the you know, the smoking guns. So I just want to know what was going on behind the scenes and why like that occurred.

But then the next two questions are I've always noticed over the years that dins like Man has always booked Southerners like in just like goofy comedy angles or sometimes just not book them appropriately and like just the reminders, you know, the job squad gimmick, the midnight expressed the revision of that, you know, you facing China, not the China's any bad because she was you know, I mean I really enjoyed her, but you know, it almost seemed

like people like he was trying to embarrass the person putting them against her. So I just want to know, with all those angles that you were put in, did you ever like sense, like, you know, any prejudice from nickmahon, like against Southerners. And the last question is just a simple one. Was Rob van dam to you like really that stiff in the ring with all his kicks and whatnot? And that's pretty much it, Bob cool, appreciate it us. Glad we speak because those are some good topics.

Yeah they are. Rob. Yeah, Rob, he's pretty snug. He's he's heavy too. Let me tell you something that's something. The guns heavy. Yeah, and he when he kicks you, you know, I mean, I always you know, I don't know if you know, this kind of goes back to what we were talking to just a few minutes ago about safety and you know, getting hit in the head and stuff like that. And but I was I always wanted Rob to just you know, lay it

in there. Rob is always laid it in there regardless, I think, you know, and anytime I worked with him, you know, he always kicked me. When he kicked me, he kicked me, you know, so in which I don't. I didn't mind that, you know, because I I was the kind of guy that I wanted everything to be as realistic as possible without being real if that makes sense, you know, in ring time, Yeah and yeah, and so you know, I didn't mind getting

you know, nailed by at all and or anybody for that matter. But as far as the you know, like the the loss of the titles ME and xpoc to the Smoking Guns, I was I was new to the company back then, and so I was just kind of going with the flow with whatever, because I didn't know how the game was played back then as far as politics and stuff like that, and you know, and I still didn't know when I left, But you know, so I just kind of went

with the flow. And I don't I didn't know the reasoning why, you know, they took the titles and gave them to us. I think it was just for maybe thinking back, it was just a transition to get the titles off of off of Tatanka and oh shit, whoever as partner with I can't remember, but anyway to get them off, get them on us, and then get them back on the Smoking Guns on Monday Night Raw, you

know, because I think that they were having a storyline. They were going forward with the Smoking Gun with the titles, I think for a title run, and I think that was the way to transition to get the titles.

Now, I'm not for sure, because I don't know what was going on, like I said, because I was I was new to the company and I was just you know, I was just trying to figure everything out, and you know, so i'd really that's I don't know what their reasoning was for that, but like the job squad, so I don't think, you know, I don't think Vince was prejudiced against Southern nurse. You know.

I think what a lot of times writers would come up with ideas for certain guys and say, hey, let's try this with this guy and see if

it works. Because I was in that transition to where I was just kind of floating around and they didn't really have anything for me, you know, so they were you know, al Snow came up with the idea of a job squad and having me partake in that, and so that idea was thrown out there and throw me in there, and I you know, and with the whole Midnight Express thing with with Bart Gunn, I think that was something that Jim Cornett wanted to give a try with and recreate the Midnight Express with

Midnight Express with Midnight Express, which could never be recreated with anybody else because there's nobody as good as those two. You know, you cannot you cannot copy the Midnight Express. And I just I felt like that was kind of silly to do that, but I was just glad to be in in some kind of storyline, you know, So I just kind of went with that,

you know. I was I was still trying to find something that fit me because before I got into that hardcore Holly character, you know, like I said, I was just searching for something that I could, you know, that would work for me. And when Jim Cornett wanted me to be part of the Midnight Express, I said yeah, because I knew number one, it would get me on TV because they're they're doing something with Jim Cornett, you know. And but I felt foolish trying to be the Midnight Express

because we clearly weren't by no means, you know. And it's funny because I talked to Dennis and Bobby about that a few years back, and I just, you know, and I apologize to them because I felt like it. I didn't want them to feel like I was trying to disrespect them, trying to be like them, because I wasn't by no means, Because I was, I'd never be as good as those guys were, you know. So, But as far as men's being prejudiced, I don't. I don't

think he's prejudiced at all. I think the man is clearly about making money and whoever he can make money with, that's what he's going to do, you know. So hopefully that answered your questions. Very good, awesome. Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn some wrestling history, don't

miss the nineties Past Cast. Every Friday on the PW Torch Daly Cast feed, Alex and Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by taking you through the Torch issue from that very weak follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as the Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties pass cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast feed. We do want to note we've got an interview

with Christopher Daniels up on PW torch dot com with our collectible specialist. We have specialists at PW torch dot com. We specialize in certain areas. Michael Moore covers the ups and downs of wrestling collectibles, their values, how things change when wrestlers are in the news, and it's a popular column that is once a week on PW Torch. And he just put up an interview since the show went on the air with Christopher Daniels talking about comic books and Daniel

Brian's interest in that. It is something I haven't had chance to rediot. I just got a tweet saying that he had put it up and I'm looking at it now, so check that out. He also talks about the TNA locker room, what's next for him in more an exclusive and view for the Collectibles column by Michael Moore, exclusively at pewtorch dot com. Bob, thank you so much. We are appreciate you staying over time with us. We're going to go to the VP after show now and hit on some most topics,

including Jim Ross and paydays. It's a big conversy now. Battista has been in the news a lot of rumblings that he is unhappy. Jason Powell reported at Pro Wrestling dot Net on his flagship show dot net Members for dot Net Members, the dot Net Weekly Audio Show earlier this week that Big Show is among the names he's heard is upset with the paydays. Randy Orton, you mentioned Bob Holly, somebody who speaks up. I know Randy at times

has has been outspoken with management about being upset with things. I would think

he would be one of the people in line. As Jim Ross talked about last week on this very show, it's going to be a delicate situation for WWE and and Vincic Maann and Triple H when it comes to pay per views being kind of they're winding down on those being a primary revenue source and revenue up the network and it's a completely different pay model than They haven't cleared that up, so we'll talk to you about that on the other side of the

music For VIP members again to sign up for VIP it's PW Torch dot com slash Go VIP VPP members, we'll get to hear this complete interview. And when you go VIP, we have just a link on the page. You click on it on our drop menu and you get a listing of all the

interviews we've done that are available online. All the three and a half years of Interview Friday with all the VIP after shows, and twenty six years in our Torch Talk library, we've added a lot of interviews from over the years in text format and audio format from doing the historic Torch Talk series over the decades, the first and longest running insider interview series in the wrestling industry history, and we've talked to some of the biggest names and they're all there for

VIP members, The Rock Hokog and Steve Austin, Scott Hall, Kevin ash On and on and on. Check it out. Also thanks to our sponsor naturebox dot Com. Now that the show is over, remember to go to naturebox dot com in order rate tape. Naturebox dot com slash Pro Wrestling Torch Bob thank you. Any last plugs you want to give to the free audience, your Twitter and certainly your book and anything else. Yeah, you can

follow me at the Bob Holly on Twitter. That is me And on June seventh, let everybody know I'm in Duluth, Minnesota, Heavy on Wrestling. I will be there wrestling that night, so hopefully everybody can come out and support Heavy On Wrestling and my book The Bob Holly Here. I'm sorry, The Hardcore Truth, The Bob Holly Story. You can get it on Amazon dot com. Booked a million, so and you know that's I thank everybody for listening. Thank you, and show some love for our sponsor and our

show. It's Naturebox dot com Slash Pro Wrestling Torch. That's you get fifty percent off your first box. On the other side of the music more of Hardcore Bob Holly. Thank you everybody for joining us today, for listening, and for making us the most successful show on block talk radio covering professional wrestling more listeners. We are the show that has the most listeners every week of any independent pro wrestling show out there not hosted by a former Mega superstar like

Steve Austin Jim Ross. Thank you for doing that for us. Keep spreading the word and until next time. This is Wade Keller. Signing off, thanks as always to Kids on Bridges for the official live cast theme song. Do a search for Kids on Bridges online to learn about their new album coming out. Current band out of the United Kingdom got some great songs. You can look up their music videos, follow them on Facebook and Twitter and tell

them the Torch Fentha. Thanks to Kids on Bridges as always with their new single out and a new album coming out. Will keep you up to date on that. Thanks everybody for joining us. We're not to the vach you after show portion of the program. I want to get into the Jim Ross

discussion. Tell me about that and I'll bounce back and forth with you on this whole issue with pay per view payoffs and how they're going to work that with the network because wrestlers are used to getting these bonuses and that helps get them way past their downside guarantee. And from everything I understand, they still haven't talked to wrestlers about how as pay per view numbers decline, how is that going to be made up for with all this revenue coming in from ww

BE network. Yeah, I have a strong opinion about that. Yeah, somebody asked Jim Ross on Twitter. I guess it was probably it's been about two months or six weeks ago or something like that. Asked him about somebody said, hey, Bob Holly said in his book that Steve Williams was paid off to win the brawl for All, And Jim Ross said, that's not true. He said he didn't get paid off. And so I sent Jim Ross, you know, a message just saying, hey, this is what

I was told from Steve. And I don't know why he told me that, and I just wanted to declare, you know, for people if they had seen that conversation between Jim Ross and I. I just want to clarify, you know, what I wrote in my book is what was told to me from Steve, you know. And I'm just Williams, you mean, not Stone called Steve Boson's real name, but doctor des Steve Williams right to

get that. But I want to be super clear. Yeah, yeah, and so you know, and I just I just want everybody to understand, you know, this is something that I did not make up that you know obviously, Jim Ross. You know, I'm not sure if he was handling payoffs at the time or not, but if anybody would know he would know. But I was just informed from Steve Williams himself that he, you know, was he was paid off before the brawl for all. And like I told JR, I said, you know, I'm just going by what he

had told me. I did, you know, I had no idea, you know, basically saying, you know, I don't know what the truth is, basically, you know, because Jim is saying no, he wasn't, and then Steve was saying yes he was. So you know, I just wanted to clarify that I'm just going by what doctor desk told me, you know. And I don't know if because he got knocked out he was just kind of in lawa land or what at the time, you know. So but I just wanted to, you know, clear that up that I

was just going by what I was told. I want to talk in a general sense about the uh the situation was passed, and how how you would handle it if you were there now as a as a veteran of ten plus years, if this has happened while you were there, and all of a sudden, the pay per view by rates are dropping like WrestleMania did about founder thousand domestic buys down about a third from where they were. Obviously, where did those two unre thousand buyes. They went to the network because two thirds

of million people bought the network for sixty dollars for six months. Most of them got it because they got WrestleMania as part of that. Yet, that sixty dollars is going to be spread out over six months, and it's going to contribute to a lot of other it's going to take away from a lot of other pay per view by rates, there's a lot more people watching WrestleMania

and these other pay per views. I'm sure Extreme Rules on Sunday did more buys or more had more paid views than any secondary pay per view title has had in years, because two thirds of a million people had access to it as part of their ongoing subscription. But how are guys going to get paid

on that in the fact that they haven't been told yet? And as Jim rossis, has there ever been a more meek and timid locker room than the current one that as yet to my knowledge to demand answers for management or at least be told, Hey, we're going to address it, but we need to find this information out first. It strikes me as an example of how there aren't a lot of choices and the wrestlers are just, you know, growingly frustrated, and it just seems like there's not that leadership to get a

bunch of wrestlers together and go, hey, we want some answers. Yeah. The thing is is they don't care. That's the bottom line. I mean, they care to a sense, But where where else are you going to go? You know, That's what that's their their mindset because when you look back at the Monday Night Wars, the people had somewhere to go, and that's when they were throwing big money out to keep you. There's there's nowhere to go now, so you take what they're going to give you.

Basically if take it or leave it if you don't. You know, that's to me, that's the added to that's the sense. I'm kidding. It's like, you know what, because number one, Vince is gonna look after Vince first, okay, look after Wall Street first. Actually sadly, yeah, now yeah, you're right, you're yeah, yeah, thank you for Yeah, you're right because of the public company. But you know, Vince is gonna do what's best for He's going to look out for number one.

Yeah, and you know it's it's that's just if all checks were dropping, if your pay Pervy bonuses were dropping, and wwe didn't address it for months on end. I have to imagine at some point you would go, wait a second, I put my body on the line for you every night. There's a system in place. We signed our contracts and our downside under that system being in place, that system has now changed. I think you owe it to us to have a meeting and keep us up to date on what's

going on. And they have their quarterly conference calls with the Wall Street but they see the wrestlers every day every week, and they don't even address this major change in how the pay system's going to work. As Jim Ross said, you want to have incentive still existing within the system, but you also

want wrestlers not disgruntled and feeling disrespected. And I kind of feel like until we hear and maybe there was a meeting the last couple of weeks and no one's leaked word of it, but I would think that that would have gotten out pretty quickly they had they done it. I just think what Bobby the locker Room said, you were part of, do you think by now somebody or a group of guys would have spoken up and said, hey, you know, not not in a confrontational way, but can we get an explanation

here? Yeah, season, The thing is with the boys. The boys might you know, they might talk about being unhappy and hey, what what's going on with the paychecks and the pay per views and stuff like that. Yeah, you know, but they're not gonna most of them aren't going to confront vins about it and say, hey, you know, what's going on? We need to know something. You know, how is this gonna you know that is how is this going to affect us long term as far as

our payoffs? You know? Because the thing is one they give you a downside guarantee. All they're obligated to do is give you that guarantee and that's it. They don't have to give you any more money. You know, Like let's say, for instance, of my my downside one hundred thousand dollars. Once I reach that one hundred thousand dollars, if I work another show after that, they can pay me whatever they want. They can pay me five or ten dollars. Yep, that's how it works. But they don't

you know, they don't. They wouldn't pay you five or ten dollars. I'm just using that as a no example. But you know, once you reach your downside, that's it. They're not obligated to pay you any more than that you can work, you know, unless it's stated in your contract that you work X amount of days, you get X amount of dollars. Period. That's the way it is. Or you get bonuses or this,

that or the other. You know so, and a lot of times too, on the contract you have a downside guarantee and you don't even think about your royalty check as being part of that downside guarantee. See so, a good example is when I wrestled Brock at Royal Rumble for the title. Like I said, I only got five thousand dollars to that match. I don't know what brought got. I'm sure it was way up there. But see I that was going towards my downside guarantee. They were going to make sure

that I didn't exceed my down I guarantee for the year. You know, that's why a lot of times your checks are what they are because they don't want talent to exceed their downside, which I don't understand that because they're the ones, like I said, they're the unsung heroes of the business that that you know, they make. They're a big reason why the company makes a lot of money, you know. And it's like the boys are the ones putting their asses on the line, you know, They're the ones doing the

doing the legwork, doing the hard work, you know. And it's like reward these guys. You know, they should be getting an extra zero on their paycheck. They really should, you know, because that's a billion dollar company and Vince is making money hand over fist, you know, and he you know, I think the boys should get more because especially if the pay per views, because you did rely on the pay per views for a big chunk of your yearly uh your yearly check, you know, or you your

bonuses. You know, that was a huge bonus to get. And now because of the network, the guys don't know what's going on. And it's hard for me to comment on that because I don't know either, you know. But if I was in that situation, yeah, I'd be wanting to know too. It's like, hey, what's going on? But see again, a lot of the guys don't want to rock the boat because they're afraid

that if they go complain or want to know something. You know, a lot of times it works against you, and it really does, you know, because they don't want to when it comes to money. They don't want you bringing up money. They really don't, you know. And again the whole thing with your downside guarantee. Once you reach that downside, they're not

obligated to pay you anymore. Yeah, And a lot of times they've got it figured out to a t each individual talent, like they know what every they know what each individual time talent, they know what their guarantee is for the year, and they've got it figured out every week how much they're going to give that person to where they don't exceed their guarantee a lot of times, because a lot of times, the only time I ever exceeded my guarantee

was I think there was like two or three years, three years in the attitude era where I exceeded my guarantee because money was so good. But you know, and and but I don't know how it is now, what they do, I'm sure it's still the same. They make sure guys just do get that, you know, what their downside is, you know, and I you know. And the thing is too with the WW network that benefits Vince and the whole you know, Wall Street, that it doesn't. I

don't think it really does anything for the boys. But the only good thing that it does to me, it does do is it gives you the history of everybody that's that's worked for the company. You know, like a lot of people growing up today they don't know who hard Where Holly is, you know, so they can go back on the WW networks they could see who, you know, who Hardcore Holly is now and they would know who that person is, you know. So I mean that's good because it offers so

much. I think it's I think it's good for the for the fans, but I think it's bad for the boys. Thanks for downloading today's show.

Take it to the next level with a VIP membership, get shows like this, the Way Keller Prosing Podcast, Weight Keller Prosing Post Show, and the PW Torch daily casts on our PW Torch VIP podcast feed with ads and plugs removed from the shows for a streamlined listening experience, and also hear the VIP exclusive shows that I host with Rich Fan and Todd Martin everything with Rich Fan and the Fix with Todd Martin signature VIP series that you're missing out without a

VIP membership. So go vip here in twenty twenty two and enjoy all the benefits, all the bonus content and the ad free listening experience. PW Torch dot com slash Go VIP. I'm really curious when those Reclamania payoffs come in and we're about halfway there, you know, it's about ninety days after the event. I'm real curious what kind of reaction there is and if WWB.

You know, they've got this this tuggle war because they want to show profitability to keep Wall Street happy and keep the stock price up, and then they also have this battle to keep the locker room from rebelling or being disgretled and not working hard. You know, Kevin, Ash and Scott all told me flat out, and this is just one of the most underreported aspects of the turning point in the Monday Night War. But the folkrum the turning point in

the Monday Night War was when Eric Bischoff fired XPOC. And it wasn't just that when XPOC jumped that Oh wow, you know XBOC jumped. I mean, even Sean, I'll tell you, hey, come on, let's be realistic. He was valuable, but he wasn't enough just single handedly to change the course of things. But he did give d X an injection of nWo credibility. DX with Shawn Michaels went from being kind of zany and kind of goofy to having more of an edge with the New Age out Laws and x

PAK in China and and Triple H. Course still as a leader. But what happened was is when that happened, all the ratings and everything changed.

It was But what I found out in interviewing Holland Nash, and there's a point to all this, is they both told me they stopped doing anything to the letter of the law extra that they had to do because they felt that their friend Sean Waltman was treated needlessly and excessively disrespectfully by Eric Bischoff in the way that he was fired and discarded as frustration with Barry Bloom's negotiation tactics.

That's Eric's story. Hallan, Nash, and Waltman have all said they think it had to do with Halla Nash creating trouble and it was Eric's way to get back at him. It might have been a combination of those things.

They all might remember differently, But the point is is Hall and Nash had power in that locker room, and they decided, and they've admitted to this, that they were going to do only exactly what they contractually had to once Eric treated their friend Sean Waltman that way, and it was a complete turning point in when they stopped cooperating. That was a turning point in the locker room doing anything to help the company succeed, and it reverberated throute and WW

fell apart afterwards. Then Holla Nash had the power in the smarts to really affect things morale in the direction things. So my point is is when these WrestleMania paydays come, WWE, if it looks like even with more people watching than ever and so much of that network money coming in is because people sign up for WrestleMania, not just for ten dollars. They committed to sixty dollars when they signed up explicitly to get WrestleMania. The rest is just bonus.

So I wonder if those paychecks come in bob way below expectations or somewhat below expectations, could WW end up paying a big price in terms of the wrestlers kind of not feeling like they're part of the family and the company and working hard for a mission or a purpose anymore, but kind of working against the

system as much as they can get away with. You know, it's fun because like Hall and Nash, they were in the position where they could get away with that, you know, because they were you know, they were a draw, they were in the money. Yeah, exactly so, And

a lot of guys aren't in the position that they were in. So what I'm trying to say is, if guys are gonna cut you know, cut back and slow down and not put out like they're doing now, Vince is the kind of person if you don't like it, I'll find somebody else to take your spot. But he's going to take care of He's gonna take care of John, he's gonna take care of Undertaker, he's gonna take care of Brock, he's gonna take care of Hunter. Of course, he's going to

take care of that core group that you know runs the show. He's going to take care of those guys. But as far as anybody else, I really can see man saying if you don't like it, and if you're not going to put out one hundred percent for me, I will find somebody else to take your place. I really can see that. I do too. I think it would almost have to be like not obvious to anybody, you

know. It would have to be something where you know, Vince couldn't pinpoint that it was happening, but there would be this, you know, with any one or two or three guys where clearly they just started dogging it or showing up late. I don't mean that, but I sort of mean just morale wise. I think even if he couldn't pinpoint exactly what was happening, that there would just be this deflation of that sense that we're all in it

together and that we're just getting screwed over. And I don't know, it'd be intangible things, Bob, that you know, on the big shows, maybe some of the guys aren't having those three and a half to four and a half star efforts, you know, and by that you can say a star rating doesn't matter or not. But what I mean is those matches that people remember that are epic, that get the crowd into it and you just go these wrestlers gave it, they're all. We've seen wrestlers who haven't given

it. They're all. But you just thought, well, you know, it just was an off night. I could see guys having more quote off nights. In other words, they have too much pride. That's not gonna happen. I'll tell you that right now. They have too much pride because you know, despite how I felt a lot of times, I still went out there and gave one hundred percent. You know, Not every night was,

you know, a five star matched. Not every night was, because it depends on how you feel as far as your body wise, you know, and how much resc you've had and stuff like that. But those guys have too much pride. They will wrestle for free on TV, you know, because guys are wanting to get to where John Cena is and it doesn't matter if you pay them or not. They will. They will stick around

and bust their ass. I promise you they will. Vince can tell them, guess what, You're not going to get any money from the WW network because that's just the way it works. And they'll be like, oh, okay, let's get back to work. Yeah, that's the way it's gonna be. All right, Let's let me talk about another thing I jotted down here, and that's baby faces and heels. We've seen Wade Barrett as a

heel getting huge pops. He's got cool music, he watched out, he's got his shoulders back, his head up, cocky attitude, and he just looks like he's there to have a good time and kick some masks. And it's everything that I've liked about Wade Barrett that I've seen in him as a potential top guy. And this bad news Barren thing is kind of catching on. But the fans like it. But he's supposed to be a heel and

their cheer and form. Now this happens historically. George Shire, wrestling historian, talked about this and asked people, you torch a article that we put up last week where you know that happened with all Cogan. You know they brought a w a Vernunny, brought him as a heel. The fans cheer to me turned baby face. That happens. But what we're also seeing Bob lately is a rebellion. I don't know if rebellion is a word, but apathy towards a lot of babyfaces who deserve better, or rejection of them.

Alex Riley on the ww ME network, the lead it was on one of the pregame shows, was fitting there with a straight face, no sense of what he was saying wrong said to I think it was to Ryebeck, who was on the panel or being interviewed on the panel. He says, well, the number one goal if at WWE, Sports entertainer or superstar is to

get a crowd reaction. And I thought to myself, you know, that's a good thing if you're Arn Anderson backstage with a guy to go, you know, to you know, some young wrestler, you know, Damian Sando, Hey, your number one jobs get a reaction. But you say that on TV, on TV, the number one job of a wrestler is to win matches, And I just I think that like that, there's something lost in the way that wrestling is being presented. And Jim Ross and I talked

about this last week about the fundamentals. If heels are cheating to win, but what matters is getting a reaction, the fans are going to cheer them. If that's the culture that's passed on to the fans, and I just

want you to kind of comment on that. Did you see the kind of a change in the industry from in Smoky Mount Wrestling all the way through to your last months and years in WWE where you saw a younger wrestlers stop thinking about their job as a heel was to get booed and their job as a baby faces to get cheered, and to start to think, well, my job is to get a this is awesome chant or a holy shit chant or you know, as a heel, get a pop because that means I'm popular,

like the nWo. Did you see that change during your decades in wrestling? You know? You know? Well, I mean yeah I did. I did. I saw a lot of it change. And I think the reason is is because it's not so much you're you're going out there you're thinking I'm gonna get a pop. I think it's just your character being your character. I really do. I don't think they purposely go out there and say I'm gonna get a pop and get cheered. I really don't think they do

that, you know, because their job is to get heat. So but I think on the other on the other the flip side of the coin, is a lot of the heels coming up or and I have to admit, I think that it's pretty damn cool gimmick, like the Wyats, you know, I just I dig it. I like it, you know, And I think that's what it is is it's just such a a you know, a unique and cool gimmick, you know. And like Wade Barrett, I don't think Wade Barrett's thinking I'm going to go out there and get a pop.

That's not what he His agenda is. His agenda is to go out there and get over as a heel, you know, get people to hate him. I know, he's not going out there thinking, Okay, how can I get the people to cheer me? You know. And I think it's a lot of it's accidental because you know, they're they're they're creating a character that becomes so interesting and they do they do say some funny things,

you know, and the people start relating to what they do say. And so I think that's how it's evolving to where people are starting to cheer for the bad guy. It's not so much because they are cheating or anything like that, or they're you know, being too edgy or anything. I think it's because a lot of times it's their character and the things they say and the things that they do, you know, are actually pretty damn cool, you know, And like I said, like the Wyatt family, I mean,

how unique is that? I think? I like that gimmick. I mean, and the promos are so good. How can you not cheer for the guy? And it's almost like you have to cheer for him because his promos are so good, you know, almost in a sense, you know, you know, it's it's I must I'm out of I guess I'm out of touch with it because I almost don't see you know, it's them.

They're doing their job basically, but it's it's almost it's it's almost backfiring on them because they're they're actually getting over as a baby face when they're supposed to be getting over as a heel. And that's that's the challenge, you know, is I don't think wrestling works particularly well as a genre when fans aren't paying money to see somebody who they have a reason to like and respect beat somebody who they are given a reason to not like and not respect. And

it isn't. Oh, it's hard in this era because everybody it's about shades of gray and rebellion and all that. Whatever it is that fans today, your target audience likes. You need to tout those You need to tout those traits in your wrestlers who are cast as babyfaces and the one, and there's things we don't like. Nobody wants to be have their house broken into and have someone and take your new television that you just bought and steal it from

you. And that's what announcers need to get over that heels are doing when heels cheat to win, is they need to get back to that. And Cornett was Jim Cornette was great about this and it was like, you know, it's like, oh, it's old school. No, it's common sense and timeless. You want your announced team to say, wait a second. When a heel cheats, it's like stealing your wallet. It's like stealing your

cards, like breaking into your house and stealing something. When a heel cheats, he's breaking the rules and he's getting a winning pay day by cheating. That is stealing money from a babyface. And we nobody wants to encourage cheating

because you could be the next victim. That mentality is completely lost and I it's frustrating for me as a view were because Bray Wyatt, if it's a cool gimmick, should be a babyface, or he should augment the gimmick so that there's even as cool as it is, there's things that that anger people about the way he goes about winning. But and it's what I wrote about

the news art this week. It's kind of multi step, but part of it is you need to have the announcers selling it, and you need to have a babyface authority figure enforcing it, and that whole symbiotic relationship is missing right now. Every Sunday night, catch Wrestling Night in America on PW Torchdailycast dot Com, hosted by me PW Torch calumnist Greg Parks. Each week, I'll welcome a co host from the Torch family to discuss the big shows pro

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the live stream link to find the next scheduled live show link. Search PW torch and Apple Podcasts or your podcast app to subscribe Wrestling Night in America every Sunday, PW Torchdailycast dot com. Yeah, and see, that's the point that I was going to bring up is the announcers have to get that point across. Hey, this isn't right, you know. They Like I said, it takes everybody, you know, and the announcers are a vital part of making sure that they get the fact that the heel is in the wrong,

that he's doing wrong. And I've seen too many times over where Bradshaw laugh about something that Wade Barrett did or Bray Wyatt did or you know, and they laugh about it and carry on about it like it's it's a funny thing and it shouldn't be like that, you know. And another and another reason too, is like it all depends on who you put that heel in there with. You know, if you put that heel in there with somebody that is supposed to be a babyface, and that's like a mid card or

lower of course, the people aren't gonna care about that baby face. They're gonna care, you know. They they're gonna cheer the heel, you know, especially when they've seen that baby face when he comes out and gets beat week in and week out. You know. And but I and I you know, it's it's a whole combination of things too. Is is the reason why people are starting to you know, like the like the heels more now. It's just a combination of things that are adding up to where and and

they're they're not stopping it. They need to. They need to stop it. I think if they don't want those heels to be cheered, right, you know. And the announcers, that's the announcers are a huge contributor to that problem. I really believe that they are. I agree. I mean, I don't have a problem with like Jesse Ventura was an effective heal announcer because he was consistent. He had a constitution which was get away with whatever you can. And to me, like gorillaan Soon was a good and Vincent

Mann were good at countering that. They were strong personalities and they would get across that idea of hey wait a second, you know, they didn't take exactly this, but hey, wait a second, Jessie, would you like it if somebody distracted you and then that allows somebody to steal something from you while you were distracted? You know, It's like, that's nobody. Nobody

wants that. People want. People want to earn what they have through an honest living and then keep what they buy and what they have, not have

someone cheat to steal it from you. And that's just that is a core value that every human being has, and wrestling's lost touch with tapping into that because I think the as Steve Boston talks about on his podcast, the working man out there should be cheering for the person who represents their values, and wrestling has complete with WWE and DNA have lost that so much, and I think it's one of the reasons it's harder to draw money in this industry.

They're making it needlessly harder because they aren't establishing that with the announced grew. I'm fine with JBL being a heel as long as Michael Cold and Jerry Lawler stand up to him and say, well, obvious, I'm fine with Taz cheering for the heels consistently, as long as he's consistent as long as Mike

Tiney stands up. But we don't get that, And I think that's it's not fair for the babyfaces who are trying to get sell merchandise and get babyface cheers to have the announcing be so out of whack, right, I agree, because you've got to have that. You've got to have that heel announcer up there, because you it just creates a dynamic, you know, within the announcers. But you also, like you said, you have to have

that baby face announcer. You know, you can't have that baby face announcer agreeing with the heel and you know, and Michael Cole, I think he's he's he agrees with you know, Lawler and and Bradshaw too much. Yes, I agree, you know, he kind of plays along within and it just it makes the baby makes the heel too cool almost yea. You know, So you know, it's just the way everything's evolving. I guess. I guess because you know it. It's almost like, Okay, this is

entertainment, so it doesn't matter anymore. It's getting to that point. As long as the fans are entertained, that's all they care about. But to me, What's what is more entertaining than watching a football game where there's a home team and an away team. I mean, I'll watch Dallas against New York, I guess, but I don't really care who wins. I don't like either of the teams. You know. I'll watch Jacksonville against Denver, and I guess I kind of like Denver better because I think their fans are

more detic, you know what. I can rationalize, but it's kind of apathy. But if it's a really good game, I'll watch and I'm entertained. But you know what's better than an entertaining football game between two teams where I don't care who wins. A football game where the home team wins no matter how boring it is, you know what I mean. Like, if the Vikings win and it's a grinded out seven to three game against the Green Bay Packers, I'm happy and I will pay money to see the rematch to

see my Vikings win again. And I think wrestling has fooled themselves into thinking they're in the entertainment business. What they're in the business of is giving people a victory that they are thirsting for and craving by having them invest in wanting to see one guy win and another guy lose. And to me, there's way more money in that than juggling. I don't go pay to see juggling, as entertaining as it might be, because I don't care about who wins

in a juggling contest. I have no stake in it. And so that's my thing. And I think they are so hung up on this quote sports entertainment thing, they've lost sight of the fact that they should be in the

business of home team and away team babyfaces and heels right now. And see another thing too, is is I think the baby face should be the one that interacts with the crowd more so than the heel, like the heel, because the heel is starting to become you know, the crowd is starting to interact with the heel, and that shouldn't happen because that gives the fan at tendency to like that guy, you know, And it's you got to draw a fine line of interacting with the crowd and not if you know what I'm

saying, You're a fine line there, because you've got to maintain that. Hey, just remember I'm the bad guy here. I'm the one that you know, you shouldn't be cheering for me, you know, And I think they lose sight of that simply because you know, we're told to interact with the crowd. You know, That's that's what helps gets you over because people want to connect with you. And the heel is connecting so well with that,

saying that fan is starting to like them. So you have to draw a fine line of what how far is too far to go to interact with that fan? You see what I'm saying. I do, And I think that's really well put too. That is like the guy that's you know, we talked about Bully Ray interacting with the crowd. And as much as it's like, oh I'm just getting heat, I'm you know, no, the crowd loves you because you're paying attention to them, right, You're validating them.

Yeah, yeah, because you And that's and I learned. It took me a while to learn, Hey, you have to interact with the crowd to get them to like you. It took me a long time to learn that. And and that and that's what's going on is is you know, and it's almost addicting too, because once you interact with that crowd and they start and you start feeling the energy from them. It's very addicting, you know, and you want more and it almost fuels the fire in that heel

to get over more as a heel slash babyface, you know. And then you got to aw that fine line to where Okay, I've got I can only go so far because because if you go too far, obviously they're gonna like you, you know, and you don't want that, and they're losing sight of that about you have time just for some rapid fire emails from two

or three people and then we can wrap up. Okay, okay, cool uh BFP member Chris when you and Crash takes against Fabulous Move and May Young in nineteen ninety nine on SmackDown, how did you decide who would take the Bronco buster in the corner? From May Young? Just it's just whoever wanted to take it. It didn't matter, you know, we just it wasn't one of those things where no you take it, no I'm or I'm gonna take it or whatever, you know, just if one person takes it one

night, next the person the next person takes it the next night. It was never, you know, we never it was never one of those deals but I'm not taking that, you know. It was never like that at all. And it was never like I told, you know, hey, Chris, you're gonna do this, You're gonna take this because I'm not doing it. Was never like that. It was just one of those things that were Okay, well you can do it to me, you know, and it just it was there was never a deciding moment to where who was gonna

take it? You know, so all right, very good. He also wants to know you hardcore holy were off camera when the Bronco Buster took place. Were you able to keep a straight face, especially when May Young botched the landing? I could never keep a straight face with those two women. I never did. I never did, Yeah, because it was, you know, it was just they were they were so fun to be around.

They made your job fun. You looked forward when you when you knew when you found out you were working with him that night, you looked forward to it because it was just it was it was almost like you could just go out there and just relax and not worry about anything because no matter what happens is going to be good and it's gonna be fun. You know, and it was I was always it was always hard for me to keep a straight

face. It really was. Chris out of Oklao the City says, Papa been a big fan of yours for a long while and wanted to ask about this question regarding tough Enough. It seems that wwe had some great talents come in, like maybe Jackie Gata and a few others for small successes, but none of them ever lasted. Why do you think that is? And can a new tough Enough do something differently to assure that the stars last? You know, I just I really think it's it. It boils down to character

development, you know it? And how well? Because to me, a lot of them they just didn't seem to get it, or they just I thought they were okay, but a lot of them I just didn't think had what it took. And I just think a lot of it was their character development that was detrimental to them, because I don't think they felt comfortable with

what they were doing, a lot of them, I don't know. I really can't say for sure why, you know, but I just think it had something to do with character development maybe though, why they didn't you know, pan out? Yeah, yeah, and is there anything that could be done to have a better success rate in terms of those those guys mind something works for you, you know, you got to come up with ideas, like the whole Sparky Plug thing, you know, like I wasn't comfortable with

that, you know. And in their defense, as far as the tough enough guys, you know, they're going to take what they're given because they don't know to give ideas or anything like that because they're new, so they don't know really anything. They aren't taught much at first, you know, because when you're there, you're just havey. You're just glad to be there, and you just keep your mouth shut and you do what you're told to do, you know, because you don't want to create any ways. And

they I don't think that they had any idea. So hey, let's try this with me and maybe in work or I would do better as this type of character or you know, I don't think they felt like they had any input. You know. It's like my Sparky Plug character. The first six months I was there, I you know, I was happy to be there, but I hated that character and I was scared to say anything about it

because I didn't want to lose my job. You know, I'm grateful for getting a job there, and it just got to the point where I had to say something and and blow and behold. Vince, you know, had more respect for me coming to him and saying, hey, you know, I'm uncomfortable being this guy. Can we do something about it? And I think that the tough enough people that didn't make it, I think they just they don't feel like they had a voice, you know, because they don't

know. And I think if they would have felt like they could have said something to hey, let's tweak this and do this or whatever, I think maybe they'd have had more success some of them. Bob, thank you so much. We ran We're in two and a half hours, so we didn't end there. But anything for you, man, that's fine. You know, you're you're You're you're the best. You You're good at what you do.

I mean, you you don't stumble, you just go and like I'm sitting here thinking I talk over my get tongue tied and things like that, and it's like, you're very good at what you do. And I appreciate you having me on your show. I really really do. I appreciate it very much, Bob. You didn't have to say that, and I appreciate it. I stumble plenty, but you make it easy for me not to stumble. As a great guy good, I'm amazed. I'm amazed at how good you are. I mean you are. I'm telling you, Wade,

I've been around a lot. I'm not kissing your ass or licking your ass or just you know, I'm not because you are. You're good, and it's you know, and it's an honor for me to be on your show because you want me on your show, and you know, I just feel very privileged to be on your show. And I get tongue tied and sometimes I lose my train of thought and stuff like that, and I feel like I just ramble on and I sit there and I listen to you, and I'm like, how does this guy do it? He's so good. But

anyway, I'm just very honored to be on your show. Well, Bob, thank you very much. We'll have you on again as long as you're willing. You're a great guest and absolutely absolute pleasure. And the time just flew by. You make it. You make it easy. Also, thank you. Yep all right, thanks, thank you very much, Waye, I appreciate him. Go Vikings go wild. Yes, yeah, all right,

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