INTERVIEW CLASSIC: Grantland's David Shoemaker talks Bryan-Hunter angle on Raw, Punk effect in Chicago, Hogan/Cena alliance, Brock-Taker

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where Wade Keller interviews one of pro wrestling's newsmakers. Ten years ago today, I interviewed Grant Lands David Shoemaker, who talked with me about current events in professional wrestling. And it is today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast Interview Classic four Wednesday, March fourteenth, twenty twenty four, ten years ago today.

Topics in the news that I discussed with David included Seeampunk's effect in Chicago, the Holkogan John Cena alliance, the Daniel Bryant triple A changle on Raw, the situation with brock Lesnar Undertaker, live color questions on wrestlming you thirty some email questions and more. So let's get to it again. This is our ten years ago Interview Classic Here on the Wayetller Pro Wrestling Podcast. Welcome to

thep W Torch Live Past. Dim Wade Keller, Editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter dating back to our launch in nineteen eighty seven and also with pwtorch dot com websites in nineteen ninety nine. You're a home of daily breaking pro wrestling news stories and features, and live PB coverage and live paperber reports and much more, including access and links to this very show. And our homepage is pwtorch livetab dot com. You can also download our free app

on iPhone, Android and other mobile devices. Just search PW Torch in the app store on your device. And we also have a sister site and sister app called Mma Toorch dot com. A big payperview tomorrow night, We've got you covered with full free. It is Friday, March fourteenth, twenty fourteen, and I am joined on Interview Friday by David Chumaker of grant Land dot com. David, Welcome back to the program man, Thanks for having me. It is great to have you back on the show. We've had a

lot go on since the last time you were on the show. Had you been on the show last Friday, a lot would have gone on since the last time you were on the show. What a WrestleMania season. And I want to focus a lot, although we're going to throw the phone lines open to callers too, of course, but we are going to talk a lot about Monday's Raw and WrestleMania thirty developments. I thought a lot came into focus

for WrestleMania thirty on Monday's program, mostly for better in my opinion. I thought it was a fascinating program with WWE kind of finally, as Chris Jericho said, giving the fans what they want that had been staring them in the

face all along. David, I'm curious about your thoughts on the big angle with Daniel Bryan triple h the fans and kind of it, you know, Dania Bryan saying he organized his fans uh and gathered them and invited them into the ring to basically hijack Raw or as a takeoff on the Occupy Wall Street movement to occupy Raw. What you think of that angle on Monday night? It was It was an incredible scene. I mean, I I mean, I don't think anybody saw it coming, and even if you did, I

think that would have still been a kind of breasttaking moment for that. You know, it was the sort of the sort of the culmination of that storyline so far, it was really you know, I mean we I know, you and I have had different points of view on on on the on the arc of Brian's career, at least as as determined by w WE over over the preceding months, but you know, I would have never guessed that that's

where they were gonna go. And and there's and certainly they've been, you know, playing with Daniel Bryan fans within the context of the storylines pretty relentlessly over the past couple of months. But the way I mean, and all that said, the way that they pulled the main event that you know, the title match step out of just thin air at the end of that Homo was pretty incredible and and pretty ballsy. But uh, I mean it was,

like I said, I didn't see it coming. I was I was excited, you know, I had that little that little tingle of like this is what it was like to watch wrestling when I was ten years old again. But yeah, I mean, over I mean, overall, you know, I don't want to give them credit for this, and you know, as anybody think, I'm saying, this has been the storyline for the past six months, that they've been building to, but the way they put it on on Monday, you know, was pretty was pretty incredible at that.

Our phone number is six four six seven two one nine A two eight and we are talking uh WWE today and wrestlmating of thirty developments and we definitely welcome your phone calls. And uh we are with David Chumaker, not only of Grantland dot com, Pro Wrestling's columnist at Grantland dot Comedy ESPN website affiliate, but also author of the Squared Circle Life, Death and Professional Wrestling, which is available by the way at audible. And we'll tell you how to get

that book free, Yes free. I hope you still get residuals from it if Audible gives it away. David, Yeah, I believe I do. Oh that's good. All right, So we'll tell you how to get David's book for absolutely free during the show if you have not yet taken advantage of our free book offer at audible. And we'll do that in just a few minutes. Yeah, David, I'm with you. I thought that the scene with Daniel Bryant and the fans reminded me of my first visit to ECW Arena.

Back in nineteen ninety five, the Public Enemy beat the Gangsters in the main event at ECW Arena in Philadelphia. This was in July, I think July ninety five, and now the ECW scene was more spontaneous, but the

Public Enemy started celebrating. They would wagh their hands in the air to their theme music, and it was kind of a tradition for fans to do it in the audience, but fans decided to storm the ring and celebration, and Public Enemy, the late Johnny Grunge and the late Ted Petty rock o'rock encouraged fans to go in the ring and they crowded the ring to the point that

it was absolutely packed with fans, and I've got photos of it. I actually ran a pick sure of the scene in the cover of the Progressing Torture newsletter this week and compared it to that moment in that even though that was

more organic, this was more orchestrated. On Monday, it was orchestrated in a way, David that simulated I think what fans have been kind of feeling and wanting to do, like it would have been orchestrated if they did it for Batista you know, like when he came back, like you'd be groaning and a bunch of people in skinny jeans and Batista teaherts w jump into the ring, you know, I mean, we would have been like, come

on, this is ridiculous. And I know there's been some criticism of WWE, and you've even written about it. Kind of, I should say youve been critical of, but you've written about and acknowledged that WWE is kind of co opting organic fan movements and marketing the Yes Tea shirts, coming up with a yes movement phrase and now Occupy raws to take off on Occupy Wall Street.

I'm fine with that. And because WWE's corporation that's trying to make money and they should take what the fans want and do it, but they need to do it in a way that doesn't come across as to corporate, too corporate and too heavy handed, like when Michael Cole, for instance, kept calling CM Pump Pump sm punk, the pipe bomb, the pipe bomb throwing CM punk like they started. You know, when Michael Cole says something, he's just such a dork. It kind of ceases to be cool, especially

if it sounds like he's pushing it. But I thought they I thought they hit enough of a sweet spot on Monday that I was really okay with it because it felt like, even if it was planned, it represents accurately. I think how fans feel. How did you feel about the execution of it? The details? Yeah, I think that's a really smart way of doing

it. I mean, you're right that you know it was. I mean, there was there was a lot of staging involved, obviously, and I think that that had to do with one, you know, creating a moment that would be memorable, that would be you know. I Mean the big thing that I always say, I'm sure you do too, is that it's less important how it happens in real time than how it looks on the on the promo package they pieced together later on, and that visual is going to

live on in WWE history. But you know, and the other thing is that the you know, I I think they probably had an intuition from having been there a million times that that Memphis crowd wasn't gonna exactly still the void that they the previous crowds had as far as joint you know, being being full fledged members of the Yes movement if you will. Uh so they you know, they had to kind of set something up that they weren't going to do anything bigger at least than like, you know, Brian on top of

the steel cage. So you know, it was it. You know, there there were there were if you if you weren't engaged, like I said, I was as like, you know, a ten year old, you could definitely take a step back and say, yeah, there's a little bit of gimmickery going on here. It does seem a little bit silly on its

face, but you know, I mean that's professional wrestling for you. And and the fact that they are, that they are acknowledging the ground swell in the first place, is something I think Daniel Bryant fans should be pretty happy about. Yeah, and that's what's interesting about fans speaking out. And I know you talked with Pete Rosenberg on your podcast about the idea with taking the

Daniel Bryan movement and and not, and he was sort of critical. I think I think it was him who was critical of like the fans chanting. And again, it's kind of like there's a there's a spectrum, it's not a binary choice. But he was he seemed a little more critical of fans voicing their opinions, and I think he was the one and correct me if I'm wrong who said that fans should just buy ticket to a house show as opposed to chance for Daniel Bryant at a show that doesn't have him headlining.

And I really, I really disagreed with that because I think it's because the fans, well, first of all, it's unrealistic just wait around forever and then buy a ticket and expect that to, you know, once Daniel Brian headlines, and expect that to make a bold statement when you can actually go to the show and respond as wwe by the way, has empowered the fans

to do in so many ways in recent years and voice their opinion. And I think it is that voicing of their opinion for both c and Punk and Daniel Bryan that has changed the course of the default mode that Triple A sho physic Man have, which is more towards fatista types. Your your thoughts on that, and I mean it fulds like you're kind of giving credit to the fans for making this angle kind of happen. The way it's it's being steered right now. No, Yeah, okay, I am absolutely, And but

that was me that you were quoting for my podcast. Yeah, well,

clarify your point, because maybe I misunderstood it. I mean I was really I mean, I was really going all in on this sort of on that hijacked raw Twitter account that I thought was just sort of I mean, I thought that, you know, their heart was in the right place, but the actual like I mean, I thought it was the actual rules or rules the guidelines that they laid out were stilly in kind of self contradictory, and the very idea of going in to a wrestling event with an agenda like that

kind of kind of hit me the wrong way. I completely agree that the fans are integrals the product. I mean, I talk about that in my book and I say it all the time. There's nothing else like pro wrestling when like the fans are an equal party in the you know, in the show. I mean going back to you know, make mean fifty or even before you know, a heel's only a heel if he's getting booed, and

that's like part of the process. Uh. And it's totally within the fans rights, uh and responsibility to you know, to to to to cheer the guys they like, you know, I I have a distaste for, you know, needlessly booing all the way through you know, Shamus and Christian when they're putting on a good message with that uh and that, you know, and that's and I think I was, you know, I was certainly like, you know, overreacting a little bit as some of us are want to

do when we're being you know, media personalities. But but but yeah, I mean it was, uh, you know, I think that was sort of an isolated incident. And and I mean to some extent and uh and but I wholeheartedly endorse, you know, fans putting Brian over. I mean, you know, the yes chance for the past I mean, how long has it been now, two years? I mean have been one of the

best parts about about wrestling. And just to see you know, just to see the fans put him, you know, just basically drag him into the main event in a lot of ways has been not just cool to watch, but really kind of reaffirming as a fan, you know. And I know there's a lot of people out there that feel like they're kind of being ignored

disenfranchised by WWE. And and I think this is a great well. If it's not an olive branch, a deliberate one, it's it's at least a sort of like, you know, corrective measure that I think everybody can be pretty happy with. Yeah, I think they've righted the ship. And it's interesting because two things had to happen for this to happen. Sampunk needed to

quit after the rumble and Batista needed to completely flop as a babyface. I don't think I'm curious what you think, but I don't think we would have seen Monday's raw happen the way it played out if Batista got over as a baby face, because generally speaking, WWE doesn't like triple threat matches. There's a lot of parallels and I've been talking about it. I talked about it in this week's First and Torture just letter talked about it all week on vipaudio.

The fascinating comparisons for Resumania thirty versus Resumania twenty and w Restumenia ten just it's just one of those happy coincidences that it's just on these ten year marks that these similar parallel things in history have happened. But WWE, I think is landing in the right place, but they're doings their landing somewhere that goes against their initial instincts. And that happened with Brett Hard and Lex Luger twenty

years ago. Because I just and I want to have remembered this detail, exceptime I was putting up the back issue for VIP members of the Torchoo Hutter

from twenty years ago, and we had an item on page two. It was in a little sidebar box that was a spoiler and it said at the recent TV taping, they taped Lex Luger parading around the ring with the WWF Championship and it's meant to air after WrestleMania, and they needed an excuse to film him with the belt after his title win, and so they filmed him a couple of weeks before Mania at a taping, and they had a whole thing where it was like, you know, they had a whole backstory,

which is kind of funny, but to explain it to the fans locally, so they didn't break you know, it didn't seem like they were giving it away, but it was what it was. And so it was just in the last two three weeks that vincick Man was still hedging, and they finally just decided to go with Brett Hart because both Luger and Brett had title shots

against Yo Kazouna on that show. And you know, Vince's doesn't like three way matches and headlines at WrestleMania. He went with it at WrestleMania twenty with Hunter Michaels and Benwa, but he didn't do it twenty years ago because three ways were practically not invented yet. That was more of an ECW thing that started with Terry Funk, Sabu and Shane Douglass. So they just went with

two title defenses in one night. So we're seeing Vincent Mann and Triple H, the two most powerful creative forces, do something that if you told them two months ago, you're gonna have Daniel Brian wrestling twice, Daniel Brin's gonna beat you, Triple H, and then he's gonna go and beat the Peace and Randy Orton in a three way, which I think is the most likely scenario. Don't know for sure. I think they would have thought we were crazy. They go what happened to see? I'm punk? And why the

hell were putting Daniel Bryan and the made him in WrestleMania. So I think the fans, circumstances and the fans have really made something kind of unexpected happened. But I think Vince and Hunter are doing it without plugging their nose. I think they kind of have come around to real eyes, this is what the fans want, and I think the rejection of Batista in the way that that that rejection happened, combined with us continued just passion for Brian. I

think they get credit for adjusting their thinking to what the fans want. And I think it's just a fascinating story we're going to talk about for years. Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at PTW torch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at PW torch dot com. Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. You can follow us on Twitter at PW Torch and follow me at the Wade Keller that's at

PW Torch and at the Wade Keller. Yeah. I mean when I I interviewed Tribalais Shaver long ago, that was you know, he made the points that that that they have, you know, a live test market audience every single night that they perform, and uh, and to think that they were that they would ever ignore the fans, you know, in the face of that is just sort of ridiculous. And obviously that's not true under percent the time. There's there's many examples of them doing just that or seeming examples.

But but yeah, I mean, the Luger example is a great one, and the lure you know, Batista parallel is probably is pretty telling. Yeah, you know, I mean, there's it's hard to imagine things going as wrong as they have, I mean, between the between the Batista and Punk things for WW you know, as they have over the past couple of months. But you know, they did. I think there's probably a lot of you know, it's not just that that's that that kind of led to this

WrestleMania shaping up in the way that it was intended to. I think you're right about the Triple Threat matches. There's a lot of little things like that, you know, I mean, and and they're you know, and I don't think over the you know, the past, I mean over the breadth of WrestleMania, but particularly the past few years. You know that that Vince would even be inclined to have a storyline running through the show like Daniel Bryan's

is going to. I think he, you know, would rather just have five matches that he can build as the biggest matches ever and just sort of have them as in little in their in their you know, separate universes leading up to the big event. And so you know, the storytelling going up to this, going up to WrestleMania this year is is uh, you know, I mean, it's it's gonna be kind of interesting because because of the Brian thing, but in some ways they still sort of have him cordoned off.

It's going to be uh, you know, like him and Triple H and and then the title match are all sort of one thing and then they you know, I'm sure we'll talk about it later. But the but the the the Battle Royal is you know, it's it's a you know, kind of separate thing, keeping everything apart. But yeah, I mean, the the fact that Brian managed managed to come as far as he did, and the fact that w W E uh, like you said, Vincent Hunter were

were you know there to realize it and uh and capitalize on it. I think is. I mean, he got to, like I keep saying it, you got to be excited about it as a wrestling fan. I mean, it's gonna be regardless of what happens, it's going to be a really cool show for for people who've been fans of Brian and just fans of wrestling for a long time. I do, I do, for some reason, think it's more than a little likely that Brian doesn't end up walking out with

the title. But but the you know, talking about Vince's tendencies, we all know he likes to send the crowd home happy, especially at WrestleMania, So I think that definitely is working in Brian's favor. Yeah, And I mean John Fermarini was on was last week or two weeks ago XWW Creates Team member in tw thousand nine, twenty ten, and he had I think it was Let's ride in fact, and he predicted or thought that, yeah WrestleMania,

that Daniel Bryan Will would not be in the title match. This was before Ron Monday, and that they would stretch it out to maybe have him win at SummerSlam and not give the fans, you know, that victory.

Now, that was before he was added to the title match, and John may have changed his viewpoint based on that structure, but I think under normal circumstances, I would say, yeah, you know, they'll find a way to go with Batista, you know, and then drag it out and have Daniel Brian at extreme rules, maybe a rematch one on one because maybe Randy Orton and Batista together work against Brian, and then that'll stretch out to SummerSlam,

and that's when Brian on the year anniversary of beet and Seen and winning the title, he'll win. And I could still see that happening. But my fear, and I think Vincent manager Blade should have a healthy fear of this too, is fans went through that once before already this fall, and

I just don't know that fans want to go on that ride again. I think historically, when baby faces chase the title and get screwed over and never get that win, there's a moment, there's a point in time where fans lose face, blame the promotion, or just get frustrated and two n out and that happened with the Road Warriors in Chicago with Tully and Arn where there was a dusty finish, they won the titles and had it taken away.

In fact, just last night I was watching some vintage Holk Cogan a WA footage for my collection, and you know, Hogan time after time looked like he had won the title from Nick Bockwinkle. This was, you know, when Hoko Mania was fully formed before he went to the WWF, and just one one excuse after another and all the title matches he ended up not with

the championship. And it got to the point where Wally Carbo came out on a WATV and said, Holk Coogan's felt like he's let the fans down and he doesn't know if he's ever gonna come back, and we need to have a writing campaign to encourage Halkogan to come back and let him know he hasn't let us down. Of course, he was just making a lot of money in Japan that month and that's what the campaign was for. But nevertheless, like they had to kind of string the fans along because Verne didn't want to

give Hulk the belt. It's it's so ironic because it's a complete slip of Vince in terms of attitude, because Dern wanted somebody who looked more like Brngania Nickbockwinkle, Rick Martell, you know, more traditional king guy, not a big muscle head, and here Vince wants a big muscle head on top. That's why I wanted Luger, That's why I wanted Batista, or wanted Batista to work out. But you do end up with diminishing returns at some point,

and you can drag it out too long. And that's that's my concern with not just giving Brian that that triumphant moment at the very end of WrestleMania Beata the odds and then you just have an angle where Batista goes crazy and you get heat on Batista, he gets the title match, Triple H is freaking out and and it's three four months, but he's to try to chase

down Daniel Brian and that's your summer. I think that's better because I just, David, don't think fans want to watch another series of screw jobs that Daniel Brian comes out on the short end of. I agree with you, and you know I defended WW a lot over the past six months, but but I agree that at this point, you know the hardest thing. I'm sure you you have the same feeling when you're writing about WW and I,

you know, and the fans I know feel the same way. But the hardest thing is in this kind of twenty four hour wrestling world where there's you know, just live programming, so you know, like you know how six hours a week and then and then on Sunday, I mean, then you know, one Sunday a month, is that it's really hard to wrap your

mind around the arc of the story. You know, you don't have to know how it's fins how it you know how it's going to end, but you kind of like to feel like you know what page you're on in the book a little bit, and and it's you know, back in the old days it was it was different. You know, It's like you knew that you knew that the feud was going to end at Starkad or whatever, whether

or not you're you're I came out on top. So it's you know, and I think that this does feel like the like the appropriate ending or an appropriate you know, big moment in the in the storyline. And the only way that I could see them pulling it off would be to you know, have Triple H screw Brian somehow and then say you know, you don't get any more title matches till SummerSlam, and you know, kind of like put a moment out there and say that, you know, just to kind of

give us the idea that that it'll come back around. But I don't think, I don't know how that could really happen. I mean that just it just seems it just seems really unlikely. I yeah, I mean I'm just trying to I mean, you know, I'm sure there's a way that they could do it. I mean someone suggested, I think probably just someone tweeted me or whatever. I mean, I've heard a lot of different possible finishes do Mania just you just you know, fantasy booking, not not scoops,

and I can a lot of them makes some sense. Like I could imagine if you know, if you know, Brian was so beaten down from the first match, and then somehow, you know, Batista pins Orton for the title, leaving in Brian's not even you know, involved in the finish, and that gives him mistake for the you know, forgetting the first match against Fatista. Like there are ways that you can book this that would make sense

and not be burying Brian by any stretch. But you know, as I said, as you said, this feels like the ending, you know, and it feels like at least a moment that they need to be they need to they need to acknowledge it to some degree. That said, you know, they've been making a lot of hay of like really really stringing this out, and uh, you know, all of your historical example was a really

good ones. You know, I wrote I wrote a couple month or two ago comparing Brian to Dusty just because you know, we all look back so fondly on that Dusty Horseman feud. But but you know, Dusty was getting the Daniel Brian treatment pretty much the whole time. Uh, you know, we all look back so fondly on Dusty getting his leg broken in the ring and his arm broken in the parking lot, and like, if that happened at Daniel Bryan today, people would be, you know, showing up in

Stanford to beat up Triple h or something. But it would be you know, it's but there's a reason why, you know, the Dusty Finish has such a bad rap, and it's because you're holding something out there to your fans, and you know, willingly, you're deliberately misleading them and not having the balls to just go through with what you you know, what you know they want to do. And I mean and and you know you're trying to

have your cake and eat it too. And that's not uh, you know, forgive me for the for for that overused phrase, but that's exactly what it is. And you know it's it's not uh, you know, they should they shouldn't be running their operation that way, especially not on the biggest, biggest show of the year. But yeah, and and and by the way that I love what you said about Ghania and Vients having completely different ideas about what they wanted for champions. The best part is how blind, how

blind they both were the whole thing too. How Verne was just like willfully blind to the fact that everybody, and you know, everybody was cheering for Hogan and this might have been actually a good way to make some money, and Vents for a decade was blind to the fact that nobody bought Hogan as an underdog. I mean, I guess we did because we were kids, but you know, they're just like so it was it was just so yes, very much so. It's history repeats itself, but in different ways in

surprisingly different ways sometimes, so it's pretty cool. All right, Well, let's, uh, let's talk about how people can get your book for free, David. And first, why don't you talk about your book and uh and let people know what it's all about. They don't just have to get it free from audit from Audible and the deal well we're about to offer. They can also pick it up in bookstores or order it online. But talk about the book and and what type of fan you think would enjoy it and

why hopefully all kinds of wrestling fans would enjoy it. You know, it started off and it's very formative stages. It was this that the series I was writing way back for Deadsman called Dead Wrestler of the Week. That was just a series of kind of essays about my favorite wrestlers, my childhood idols, and most I mean all the ones I wrote about had had died way too young. I mean, we're all familiar with that. With that series

of events. When it started turning into a book, it sort of evolved into a you know, a bigger, you know, more full fledged history of pro wrestling in America. And it's not exactly one or the other it's somewhere in the middle. There's a lot of history going back all the way to you know, the carnival side shows and at the early early parts of the twentieth century on through till you know, pretty much the modern day.

But you know, all the esdays are are most of the essays, I should say, are focus on one wrestler, and most of those guys are dead. But that's just sort of the way of the world. But you know, I think it's for all kinds of people. It's for for everybody, you know, for for people whose brothers stopped watching wrestling when they were twelve, and it's for hardcore fans too hopefully, So appreciate anybody that checks

it out. Very cool. The way to get access to an audio version of The Squared Circle for free is to sign up at audibletrial dot com slash Pro Wrestling Torch. Besides David Schuemaker's book, there are also all Right, let's go to the phone lines, David and see what our callers have to say. Our phone number, if you want to get in line on the phone banks is six four, six, seven to one, nine to eight to weight and I am weight Keller progressing torch but owinning US mid show.

David Chumaker of brant Land dot com, the progesst and columnist for that ESPN website affiliate, is my guest today on Interview Friday. Let's begin in Eric code nine five two. Would be ipmember. Please state your name and where you're from. I'm Brian and I'm from Minneapolis, Minnesota. Great, Brian, Thanks for Colin. What have you got for David to meet a day?

Two quick questions for you and possibly a third little quick one. But you guys are talking about it at the jump of the show, which was the WWE always trying to co opt and own these things, and I think that's detrimental overall because they're basically the cool they're trying to be the cool parents, and in the end that always results in rejection. So when the nWo came out and was like the outsider element of it, it was super hot, but as it got co opted and owned over time, and eventually the

Flat Nuts version with Jeff Jarrett was a round no one cared. So my WWE trying to own these things and not let them live somewhat organically. And I'm not saying they can't make money on merchandise, but making these hashtags and having all this stuff I feel really diminishes the authenticity. Bray, let me ask you this before I throw it David for his sus would they how do you think WWE could have handled things better at this point to still kind of

steer things in the way that fans wanted. Yeah, I mean these guys, I mean, you know Vincent company love to pitch off all the time that they are big in social media. They could have done it in an unorthodox spiral way. That's a huge thing on the internet that sent them discovery ownership for the audience. Hey, guys, I found this video for the

cover board that got huge thing even though it was fake. It's something like that where fans get to feel like they own it and they're not being sold it or given it, and that gives ownership and that makes the moment when Daniel does win all the better for the fans who feel like they're invested in it more than if they just buy a product. I don't know how to put it. I felt it as a kid with the nWo That's how I see it. Where I mean, I knew it was owned by WCW book

that there was that great ground. They never try to control. It is always a toss fight between the two of them. Basically, yeah, David, what do you think about that guy? Yeah, you know. Funnily, I actually we talked about this a little bit on on my podcast Cheap Heat this week, and and I and and Rosenberg used the cool dad metaphor two. Uh it really it really does feel that the way a lot of

the time. And I was saying that they should just put w you know, I I was like, they should have, they should have if Brian wins, they should have, you know, t shirts printed up that just say finally on it and put it and just have and have and have guys like WWE employees selling them out of a van in the parking lots as if

they're bootlegged. But that's, you know, sort of an example of what he's talking about, that like, there are viral ways to do this, and w W has this weird tension between uh trying new cool things and and and being sort of willfully blind to them. And I think a lot of that has to do with how much of the stuff trickles all the way up

to the top, you know. Vince Vince's is never has never been one for subtlety, and I think specifically right now, you know, with WrestleMania just a few weeks away, they they you know, there's an increased effort to sort of hammer everything down, own everything and make everything really really clear to like the six year old kids that are watching it, you know. I mean, there's there's this isn't the time of year for subtlety in particular,

but that is that I totally agree, Like I totally agree. I wish that they would find ways to do things a little bit more intelligently. I mean, it's it's my it's mind bodeling to me that you can go on you know, shop ww shop and find shirts that only exist for the sake of irony and then then watch a product that it's like almost entirely devoid of irony, you know. I mean, it's it's there's a weird need

an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts. Will come join me Alan fourrel Over in the Progress, Paradise, a Pedi retorch VIP as we mask on the bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the great matches and shows from around the world. Be it the US, Japan, Europe or

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available at pterww torch vip info dot com. And yes, all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast apps on iPhone and Android devices, or you can stream them directly from our ad free VIP mobile site. See you in the Paradise. And then I find an interview to David that that WWE has kind

of created this monster and I'm not saying it did not exist before. Bruce Mitchell, towards Senior Columnists, before he started writing about wrestling professionally, was a man who attended a lot of shows front row and he was He and his group of fans were very hard on baby faces that they felt were getting over pushed or didn't deserve their spots, and and you know, Ricky Morton hated them and Sting hated them, you know, for the things that they

were channing, and they were very ironic. They were pretty much regarded as the first well known group among wrestlers in any territory. I'm sorry, they were the first group of fans who were well known among wrestlers in any territory anywhere, who kind of had a reputation among wrestlers for that kind of ironic channing. And so it's been around. It just so happens. Bruce Mitchell was part of a group that are kind of the pioneers of it as far

as we have been able to track down. And you had when when Rick Flair was fired, Ben Jim Hurt, you know, actually John Hitchcock was part of front resection d held up the sign famously on television while sitting next

to Bruce Mitchell. We've heard enough and and that became a big thing, and fans just organically were very upset when Rick Flair was gone because he was the home you know, the home team starting quarterbacks so to speak, who jump to the rival team WWF and they blame management for it, and that goes back to the early nineties. So this kind of thing's been around, but with that as a premise, and I wanted to set that up because it kind of works against my point, but I want to acknowledge it.

WWE, I think has made it worse by and they've gotten better about it lately. But they kept telling the fans it's all about you. John Cena would say it. Vincmc mann would say it's deep McMahon. We are here to entertain you. They would say that, and it was just I just my jaw dropped when they said it, because no, you're there to fight and win titles. It's just inherently entertaining. You shouldn't have to tell us. It's like when you stand out there and you say, are we entertaining

or I hope we entertained you tonight. You're telling the fans start looking at the product critically with a critical eye and start thinking in a way that it shouldn't even cross your mind to think, which is have they done what I want them to do for me to be the most entertained, Because then when you do that, you set up a whole fan base with a mindset that isn't I want to watch things unfold and cheer for the good guys and boof for the guys I don't like for whatever reasons, I don't like them,

And instead you have them sit around going what would I have rather seen? What would I have rather had them say? To make me happier, as if it's all about each individual person deciding what is best for their entertainment and www by doing that, having fans vote for stipulations in matches, which I think is kind of stupid because a stipulation should happen for a reason, and it should be decided by smart people who are trying to create an even playing

field or give a chance for us or to get deservative revenge. And when you just let the fans vote for the match that will quote most entertain them, you kind of take away the whole reason give it matches even started, which is we're going to build a cage to keep interference out so the baby face has an even chance against the heel, etcetera, etcetera. Same with Lumberjack matches, a heel kept getting counted out intentionally we're gonna stop that vibing

lumberjacks. You don't have a lumberjack match because fans think it'll entertain them. You have a lumberjack match because it's to keep the heel for running out and getting intentionally counted out. So, in other words, what I'm saying is WWE created this beast. They gave the fans this idea that it's up to you to decide who you like the best, and we should have to listen to you because we're all here to entertain you, not decide who the best

wrestler is, and you just all are along for the ride. So that's speaking of irony. That's what I find ironic, because I think WWE kind of created this monster we've seen the last couple of years, last several years.

Yeah, I think that they definitely played a hand in it. I mean, I think that part of it was just the sort of you know, natural evolution of a fan base that that you know, reads a lot of stuff on the Internet that they you know, they have a lot of knowledge that they wouldn't have necessarily had you know that many ten, twenty thirty years ago. But you know, but it's true. I mean, you

know, you can look at it from both sides. With a guy like Fandango, who I think, uh, you know, was disserved by both the WWE and the fans to a certain extent, because you know, the fans latched on to his to his theme song and we're singing along with it like crazy, and WWE said, oh, look these you know, the the sorts of fans are super into this guy, and let's let's give him

a really big push out of the gate. And you know, you know, no one stopped to think that, no one could really take him seriously at that point because he was doing such kind of a silly gimmick. But at the same time, I think, you know, the fans who were who were over engaging in that way or doing a disservice to guys like Daniel

Bryan. I honestly think WWE, you know, could look at Fandango and say, well, they were into him too, you know, when when when Brian's getting all these yes chants, so you know, it's it cuts both ways. But but uh, but I definitely think you're right. I mean, I think that that ww UH has invited this this this sort of chance. I mean, I forgot who said it, but like, uh, last week, you know, Monday before last when they were in Chicago, when when when Brian was lying on the ground at the end of the

show and the fans were just booing like crazy. You know, Triple H and Stephanie didn't walk back into the in the in the dressing room and say like, oh God, I wonder why they were so mad. I mean,

they must have been ecstatic because the fans were really engaged. You just have to figure out how to take that engagement and make it actually worthwhile and make it you know, you know, if the fans are going to freelance like that, then you have to find you have to turn the storyline so that they're channing appropriately sort of, and and you know, with putting Brian in the main event is certainly one way to do that. Yeah, you

would written. I guess that is it. So thanks everybody, Thanks Jason, Thank you. Well, I mean I think there's always going to be a lingering problem with the announcers. I mean, just to take that in isolation, you know, I mean, you probably know about this stuff better than me, but but you know, I've gotten the weird impression over the over the years that that the really irritated the most irritating hashtagging and whatever,

you know, touting and sweeting and whatever. Stuff that Cole says is not some like, you know, widespread. I mean, the corporation at large does not love this either. It's just it's a very particular set of voices that are that are pushing that sort of stuff. And it does just sort it does come off his phony. And I think that Michael Cole, who you know, think of him whatever you want, but he's a lot better. I mean, he's actually very good at his job when he's when he's

doing is well, he can be very good at his job. And when he's doing all that touting and tweeting stuff, that's that is his job. I mean he's doing an okay job of that. But it's uh, I mean whatever, I mean, as good as he is, it's it feels inauthentic. And that's not on him. It's just like a such a weird almost non sequitur when it when he comes out with it, and and and I think that will continue to be a problem. You know, I mean

basically everything that Lawler says, uh, that's not a non sequitur. Is just sort of grading at this point to me, and that's coming and that's I'm speaking of someone who you know, he was my first idol. I grew up watching Memphis Wrestling every Saturday. But but yeah, I mean, I guess that to the to the larger point, you know, it's always going to be co opted. That's just sort of the nature of the beast. But I think that I think that it's just it it does for for

a lot of fans. And I wrote that, you know that that comment that you're that you referenced sort of from the point of view of of you know, the most diehard Daniel Bryan fans. I think for for uh, for for a lot of those fans who have been waiting for so long, it's just sort of all happening so quickly now, especially after what's happened in the past couple of weeks. And and it's awesome to see Brian in the

position that he's in. But there's always but there's always going to be that little that that feeling of of distaste or even discussed that you know, your favorite indie rock band just got number one hit single. You know that it's that it's that, Yeah, and I think that that that's a really natural

reaction, you know, everybody. I mean, one of the greatest, one of, if not the greatest, things about Daniel Bryan was feeling like you were part of this kind of secret handshake club that that like gets wrestling on a very certain level. And uh and you know people would if he and up being the quote unquote face of WWE for any serious run. I think there's going to be a lot of a lot of you know, internal conflict amongst a lot of fans who don't know quite quite how to how to

swallow it. You know, he's he's he's the least corporate champion of all time, but he's still going to be that guy. So it'll be interesting. Yeah. Yeah, Well, Brian, let me Trow write too, because you brought the subject up. Anything to add or any new topics.

Thanks for the no the inside that guy. That was fabulous. My other question I wanted to throw at you was back to the backside of things in the company, and it's it's Vince McMahon's obsession with Hollywood and the legitimacy he steals it will bring to him and that is his biggest achilles heel is that fact that he needed to be legitimized. And he would even bring in Freddie

Frinz Junior with you know What's movie to do? She's all that, and he gets to write Monday Night Roz and he gets the pitch ideas that everyone else would have been fired for likely or at least vanished to the corner of the room. And Vince's there chuckling because he needs that adulation. And I just find that to be the most funniest of things that he wants to get out of Odd the Nickelodeon. And it's, in my opinion, is what makes him is his greatest weakness. And I just want to hear your guys'

thoughts on it. Sure, sure, yeah, Bran, I think David, we've seen from the beginning of intook Man taking over WWE that there was a shame for the business he was in, and we've seen Stephanie with that.

When when Stephanie got more control in the early two thousands, it became a lot of what WWE did became about bringing in Hollywood writers, the ones that they could get who were willing to work for non union in a non union situation, but coming from sitcoms that that made them feel like, you know, we're a regular TV show, and you know, they introduced a year or two ago a showrunner, you know, and their agents became producers

and they're taking all these TV terms on. And we've seen that that undercurrent of we're not pro wrestling promoters, where vinccmann for a while called himself that, you know, or had other people call him the next Walt Disney, and then it became well, we're sports entertainment, not pro wrestling. Now.

A lot of it was smart because they had to reposition themselves for national ad campaigns, and part of this was Dick Eversol saying, here's a language we need to use to make this product palatable with NBC executives, to get you on Saturday nights. Made event. I'm not ignorant of that, but Vince McMahon, at times when he didn't have to, continues to and his family Stephanie two kind of run away from wanting to be known as just pro

wrestling promoters. Thus the Leyland Sugar Ray Leonard fight, thus the XFL, thus the World Nightclub, and trying to do a record label right on the verge of Napster making that just a really bad idea. You know, all these forays into other places and other things. Part of it is just smart business diversification. But part of it, I think undeniably, if you've studied Vincent Mann and his psyche is not wanting to just be the most successful pro

wrestling promoter of his generation. That hasn't been enough, And there does seem to be a little bit of a mark. It's ironic, David, because they kind of mark out for somebody from Hollywood who's willing to come in and grace and and have their presence graced by Hollywood royalty. And sometimes it seems a little beneath them and kind of like a clingy girlfriend or something, who

is you know, like, oh, please come endorse us. What do you think about point Brian made and what I kind of just said there, I mean, I think it's most I think it's mostly undeniable. I mean, well, the one thing I will say kind of in defense of the the Hollywood writer system is that you know, that stuff started coming along at a time when they when they you know, I mean they were really writing scripts and and like and having all this live programming for the first time.

Uh, and you know, a lot of fans have over the years said, you know, this storyline's terrible, why don't they just put Dusty Rose

in charge of writing or whatever? And you know, there's been a lot of great bookers who were former wrestlers, but there haven't been a lot of wrestlers that have experienced, uh, you know, writing one hundred and four scripts the year, you know, I mean, that's that's that's the sort of that's the sort of thing that we're like, being a Hollywood writer actually has an advantage and most of the guys who have come from Hollywood or wrestling

fans or why else would they have taken that job. You know, I think it more more it reflects on the sort of top of the food chain and the inability to steer those people into you know, better directions at times. But you're absolutely right about the rest of the stuff. The you know, WW films has been you know, even when they're focusing on wrestlers has been that way, and the music and certainly the XFL like you know, all the stuff you mentioned. It's it's undeniable that Vince has this, has

this. I mean, who knows if it's embarrassment with wrestling, or if it's you know, and if it's a thing where he wants to be able to talk about what he's doing besides wrestling with his buddies at the country club, or if it's just you know, a desire to keep doing bigger and better things. It certainly has hurt the product over the years. I mean

it's kind of hard. It's it's interesting to be talking about this around WrestleMania time, because it's hard to make the case that the that the you know, crossover stars and that sort of thing you know, isn't a good isn't a good thing at least for WrestleMania. I mean, it's what's made is what made WrestleMania in a lot of ways. Yeah, again, David's it's not really binary, like all celebrities are bad or all celebrities are good.

I think what we're saying, I think all of us are saying, is we want them to have an appropriate level of recognition of when it's good for business to have that tie in versus when they just seem like they're go just there's starry eyed over Oh my god, Freddy Prince Junior is on our writing

team. This makes us so legit Yeah, like you want them to have a little more dignity and a little more pride that we were not looking to be legitimized by B level actors and and guest hosts who, as John Fermrini said, all they want to do is just have a fake match and wrestles.

It's like Jay Leno did a night you know, during the Nitro era, Okay, and so yeah, it's sort of like there's times where it absolutely has made sense to have celebrities there, but you want WWB to like not seem like they're they're they're just graced by that being able to have somebody cool actually join them. Totally agree, I mean, I completely agree with

all that. The one thing, I mean, one thing that I'll say, uh, and this is totally speculative, but if there's if there's one really great thing that could I mean if there I think there's many, but one really interesting thing that might come out of the ww network is if you know, Vince really does I mean, if this affects the way that other I mean that other media companies operate, then maybe Vince will be happy to

be a wrestling promoter for the first time in a long time. Yeah, yeah, all right, let's go to ourn ext phone call if you want to get in line. The number is six four six seven to one nine A two eight. David Shoemaker of grant Land dot com, an author of The Squared Circle, is my guest today on Interview Friday on the PW Torch Live Cast. Don't forget. You can listen to the show live Monday through Friday and Sundays a half hour after pay per views end at PW torchlivecast dot

com. That is a homepage for this show. PW torch livecast dot com for daily news updates, editorial, special features, live pay per view coverage, and breaking news PW torch dot com. By the way, the place to go for breaking news on MMA is MMA torch dot com, and we have breaking news during the show. Johnny Hendrix for tomorrow's title fight failed to make weight and he has two hours to drop a pound and a half. Who yes, So follow that story as it develops at mmatorch dot com or

on the MMA Torch app Just an embarrassing moment. Rich Hanson, an MMA Torch columnists, by the way, predicted that earlier this week. I don't know how he managed to, but he just tweeted that he called that one so fascinating story developing, not one that I think any of us want to hear about, but we'll we'll see the ramifications, and he commented, Johnny did I just noticed and said that he thought they made weight so they must

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for just four dollars and ninety nine cents a month. Check it out patreon dot com slash PW Torch vi i P. That's patreon dot com slash PW Torch VIP and you can also upgrade to other tiers and receive even more benefits through Patreon. Anyway, let's go back to wwe Talk here and go to our next caller and go to area code seven seven three on deck by the way, five seven zero seven seven three. Thanks for joining me. Please state your name and where you're from. Boris from Chicago, Hey, Bors,

what have you got for David? Today? I was listening to you guys, and I just want to I answered this question on the you know, on previously on the others Hi on the other show, and we are getting the course, we are getting complaints for people asking the same question day after day, So try to spin it originally, just use a different adjective. That'll be good enough. All right, Well, that's what I try

to do. What I had asked was that since we didn't seen the show in Chicago, and we've seen the show in the show where the Memphis what Danny Bryant got is Tyler's shodey, which one would you have preferred if if this was done, you know, without the way we had to get there Chicago, or like you're saying, bors, would it have been more interesting

to have Monday show this week in Chicago? Yeah? Okay, well that that is an interesting scenario, yeah, David, you know, because I mean, cities are different, you know, and sometimes they change event to event. Minneapolis is actually kind of unpredictable in what kind of makeup they're going to have it. It really depends on Minneapolis will fill you know, eighty percent of eighty to one hundred percent of Target Center or Xcel Energy Center for

just about every show WW becomes with. But sometimes the crowd makeup is very different depending on who's had a lot of product is. Other towns are just very identified with having being somewhat passive and or being a little more pro Sena or being very anti Sena. It's interesting, how would the show have been different on Monday had through happenstance this everything script wise that was meant to play

out happened Monday, but in Chicago not Memphis. Huh, I mean, I don't want to I I I'm reluctant to give WW too much credit, but this is the sort of thing that they actually probably uh would would have been very aware of. It would have been awesome for Brian to have that moment in Chicago. But the week I mean, but if it had happened two weeks ago, I mean, wwe might have saved Brian. They may have may have totally saved Brian because if he had gotten drowned out by punk

chance. Just imagine what would have happened, you know, the fact the way that the way that it happened in Memphis with it where they had a little bit more control. I think was you know, the very w W way to do it, but it also was was a really smart way. I think that they, you know, were really I mean, I thought, this is not a personal opinion, they were really hamstrung by Punk walking

out and by having that show in Chicago. And you know, you can look at that entire show and just watch the way that they built it be completely about crowd reaction, you know, I mean from Hayman coming out at the beginning on, they were just doing everything they could to rest some sort of control out of that. But yeah, I don't know, I'm interested in what you think. I mean, I think I don't think that Brian would have gotten killed by Punk chance, but they had to be cognizant that

that was a possibility. Yeah, And you know the feeling I got coming out of the Chicago events, and some people have have disagreed with this, and I mean I respect that. I think it's open for interpretation, but I feel pretty firmly Monday in Chicago, we could go money in Chicago showed that, Yeah, Chicago loves Sea On Punk. But I think a lot of fans realized Punk quit management didn't fire him. They didn't refuse to renew

his deal. Punk walked out months before his contract go was up, and I don't think people be grudged Punk doing it because they I think people have faith and Phil Brooks that that if if that's something he felt he had to do, there had to be good reason, and so we'll respect that. And he's not talking publicly. He's not complaining about WWE. He's not going out there and airing his laundry and talking about, oh, I've got this personal issue or oh I'm burned out. He just told Vince I can't do

it anymore. Whatever happened beyond that closed door, walked out and for the most part kept to himself other than you know, being hanging out at the Cool Kids table with Dana White at usc and now doing the Talking Dead show this Sunday night. But other than that, you know, he's not really

doing a lot publicly. He's not talking about it, and I think fans in even in Chicago, thought, well, if Punk doesn't want to be here, we got Daniel Bryan. I don't think Chicago fans are exclusively Punk fans more than Daniel Brian just because Punk is their guy, especially when it

seems like Daniel Brian wants to be there and Punk doesn't. And by the way, I'm not saying anything I don't think Punk would disagree with because Punk himself David had said this is Daniel Bryan's time, and I think part of

punk leaving might have had to do with the idea. And again I think it's it's just a small contributing factor, but it was sort of like, do I want to overstay my welcome or stay long enough where it's clear that I've been passed up by not just maybe Daniel Bryan, but the Shield, the White Family in terms of wrestlers who are being booked well with upsides,

and it's kind of exciting to see the trajectory. I think Punk sort of saw himself on a trajectory and maybe was a few months ahead of the curve of thinking I'm cooling off. I don't want to be around to be cold.

I want to walk out before that happened. So I'm introducing too many things here, but I think the Chicago fans might have been okay being there an eyewitness to exactly what happened on Monday, and I don't know that they would have drawn out Daniel Bryan because I think Chicago see On Punk fans are

also Chicago Daniel Brian fans. Yeah, I agree with that, but I also Bean, but down in that particular Monday, I think that they, you know, they were a lot of people thought that he could have been coming back, and so it was you know, yeah that I mean, I think if they were back in Chicago this Monday, then then it would be a wholehearted support for Daniel Bryan. You're right here, You're right, Wight. Let me, David, I hate don't, but let me,

I mean, clarify what you're saying. I think it's a great point that I wasn't thinking of. Fans were still thinking maybe CM punk would be taking on Triple H. So as soon as you established that Daniel Bryan's taking on Triple H and then the winner got the title shot, you're saying that would do what the opposite of what ww we wanted to do to in Chicago, which is give fans hope to the very last minute that seem Punk might show

up. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think they, I mean, they were they were well, I mean, I don't know how much they wanted fans to think that but that was certainly the way it felt. Yeah. Yeah, but but it's a you know it that that was that was a that was a high wire act that week and U and you know it will all be talking about it for I mean, I don't know for a

long time. I mean, I think you're right that, I mean that fans are are you know, I mean, it gonna be gonna be you know, they're they're not gonna they're not gonna punish Daniel Brian going forward for for for not being CM Punk. I mean, I think you're right. Everybody kind of has a grasp on what's going on, uh and that Punk's not coming back, and that Punk had his reasons or whatever. I mean,

I think I wrote this. I know I think Punk personally it is just my feeling kind of had a vision for like he always has about how he thinks is the next year of his career should go. And I think that when the WrestleMania, you know, when the when the match plan sort of came down the pipeline, I think that he realized the first time that he wasn't going to get kind of a victory lap for his last six months, that he probably would be putting other people over for his last six months

as anybody else would. And I think that that kind of hit him and and you know, hit him hard, and and and and and led him to rethink some things because you know, everybody goes out on their back, or most people do, but you know, in the modern WW, you kind of go out on your back for for for five or six months, you know, until uh, you know, they they still certainly keep using you, just like they would you know, use Jericho every time he comes

back. But uh but you know, it's not like they don't. They don't have much vested interest in putting you over if if you don't have a contract, you know that to stick around for a while. So you know, I think, yeah, I think we're saying the same thing though, Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would have been interesting to find out if fans would be willing to embrace Daniel Bryan in Chicago, if it was driving

home the finality that Punk will beer. I thought that wwe wanted to have that hope alive to the very end, even was because Paul Hayman's saying Punk isn't here is basically guaranteeing Punk is there. I mean, Paul Hayman is not knowing yet the truth teller. So like I just I love that it's

like cmpunk is not in the building. And I thought that was their way of having kind of, as you said, having their cake and eating it too, which is we told you he wasn't here, but we had Hayman say it, which means he probably is here, and maybe the Paul Hayman

character doesn't know he's here, and that's our cover. And up to the very end, I mean, the whole main event looked like it was set up for cmpunk to run in and tryan and so I do think they wanted to keep the fans not I think the moment that the fans felt one hundred percent Punk wasn't there. If they had done anything in the middle of the show to do that, or even the last half hour, I think fans

might there was fear that the fans might have gotten unruly. Now I don't think that crowd was as worked up as the quote underground Internet movement made it

seem like it was going to be. I think the crowd, the vast majority of the fans in Chicago were there to see the shield and the White family and a lot of them are there to cheer John Cena because they're John Cena fans, and a lot of them are part of the Daniel Bryant movement, Yes, movement, and we just kind of overestimated because of the summer of punk that it's just always like that in the vast majority of fans in

Chicago are all these frenzied seeing punk fans wanting to hijack a show. I thought it turned out to be a tamer crowd then it could have been or that WWE feared it was, and I thought it was mostly fans who were Daniel Bryan and John Cena and Shield fans, not Punk fans. So I think but WW, I think was right to be prepared for fans freaking out if it became one hundred percent clear Punk wasn't running in at the end.

I thought, to the last ten seconds Punk might run in. John Javerni on Twitter said, I guarantee a hundredercent Punk's going to run into the main events, you know, within the last ten minutes. Then he talked about that last Friday. He was just wrong. So I think they and that's I think what was really you know, you call it a highera activit. I thought it was really smart to give fans hope to the end so that they didn't have a chance to kind of organize and rebel and kind of screw

up whatever they wanted to accomplish otherwise. Yeah, I think I think that that's that makes a lot of sense. I mean I kind of lumped it in with with with the Rumble and in the way that they you know, it wasn't as it wasn't as as clear cut as the way you know, you were rightly talking about Chicago Raw. But you know, I think that they at the Rumble they projected Daniel Bryan to be the thirtieth entry just by

not talking about it, you know. I mean, it was that same thing, by like they were kind of going against the unwritten rules of how you do a wrestling show or abiding by them, and then and then pulling the rug out from under the end. And but that couldn't have been on purpose. I mean, maybe I don't think that was on purpose, and so that's how I had lumped in the Chicago pump thing. But I think, but what you're saying makes a lot of sense that they were risking a

sort of full fledged revolt if they had done it. Uh, you know, if they if they had been clearer about it. But that's the you know, that's the hard thing. Like how do you tell I mean and I'm not even talking about you know, avoiding a riot, but like literally, how do you tell that crowd that CM punk isn't going to be there and have them believe it. I don't think there's any way any way to

do it. Yeah, I mean, you're right about about Hayman's role, but like, you know, I mean, what if, like Lillian Garcia said, it would have been more legitimate, if Triple Ahent said it would have been more legitimate. I mean I think that if you say it, you're automatically calling it into question. Uh. And if you don't say it, then it seems like they're leading them on even more, you know,

So it's weird. I think CM punk could have shown up, like uh, done a tout video of himself at an NBA game that night across the country and wwe could have played it and fans would still think that that guarantee he's in the building because they I would have that would have been that. I mean, there's no way to convince some fans it wasn't gonna happen. Let's go to a couple of other phone calls here, and who did I say? It was? Next? Five to seven? Oh? On five

to seven? Oh, please state your name and where you're from. Larry, Hey, Larry, thanks for calling. What have you got for David and me today? I'll be going on late days. A new VIP member by the way, Oh great? Do you like it? Yeah, I've been going through the website there there's so much content, like kind of overwhelmed.

Actually, yeah, yeah, I know. It's I literally had somebody say yesterday he put off going VIP for a couple of years because he felt like it would just take over all his other podcasts and his life and all that, and but he finally gave in. And now he said his trips to the gym are going to be more frequent because he's gonna have to keep up on the audio. He's really liked so far. But yeah, I have to tell people pw torch dot com slash go vip searching for more great

pro wrestling talk, then join me. Jason Powell, host of the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom podcast. Each week, he'll hear the latest news and analysis for me and my team at Pro Wrestling NED along with other pro wrestling media members. Plus the Pro Wrestling Boom podcast features long form interviews with notable names in the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast, and all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at PW boom dot

com. Once again, that's PW boom dot coming back to you and thank you for triggering beavel forgot to plug it. Yeah, I look forward to checking out those paper views and seeing which one I want to watch that on the network. That's not pretty cool. Yeah, I found my favorite thing that you guys do. Man, it's really cool. Thank Yeah. I know you called to do more than just trigger up plug as one as one shareholder in WWE, I as a man that Daniel Bryant wins the WrestleMania Yeah,

because it's best for business? All right, all right, you got add that line? Hey real quick, I'm watching the nineteen ninety three Rods on the network, and when did they switch? When did they go to arenas? Then when did they start going to the arena? Well, I mean, r you're talking about it because they were in Manhattan Center at the beginning. Yeah, that was about I mean I think they just went to

arenas at the next taping. But what they did mostly at that time because they would ta tape ros every three or four weeks, they would do multiple shows at once and then and they tended to stick to the Northeast where they had traditionally done TV tapings because they it was a mentality and it's totally foreign today, Larry, but the idea was, we're not going to draw a big crowd for a TV taping. We got to save house shows for the

big arenas for TVs. Because it had kind of evolved slowly over time. But TV tapings often were like the AWA used to do TV tapings at a TV studio, you know, just next to the where the newscasts were done, and they would have three rows of seats. David Eu reference Memphis earlier. You know, the WMCTV studio was host to all the TV shows. Because the idea was, we're not going to give away Maine event matches on

TV. We give away squash matches and a rare mid carter versus mid Carter, and so we have to just go to smaller towns who are just happy to see US, and part of it was the logistics of bringing the TV equipment across the country too, so you'll see a lot of shows in you

know, Connecticut and Pennsylvania. I went to a raw taping twenty years ago at bush Kill, Pennsylvania and what was essentially like a tent and so, but you'll start to see roz at at smaller, mid sized market buildings as as Rod progressed, it was only really during the Monday Night War when Vincent Man was pushed into doing main event matches to compete with Nitro, which he complained to me about having to do and how he still does it because it's

a different world, I guess with all the TV revenue. But then they started going to the to the larger arenas and really shining them up. But it was just kind of an evolution that you'll start seeing pretty quickly as they air more of the older ones. Okay, because I was wondering, because I'm on an episode nineteen right now, and I was just wondering when they

you know, it seems like they're in the same place. Yeah, no, they go to some of the same places, but you're not going to see even though good Giant arenas for a while, but you know, they're still in places that can have hockey games. I mean, they're not all just Manhattan Center type places. I don't think in those eight years. Weirdly, men and Manhattan Center is bigger than it looks. But you're right, it does seem like they just sort of like tape or they're taping multiple shows

at once. The only thing that changes is Vince's tracksuit and uh it but it's you know, it's it's awesome to go back and look at it. But you're right, it's crazy how much everything has changed. Yeah, yeah,

I love that. I love that because I mean I have all these in my tape collection, Like people aren't gonna watch for some of the network and I'm like, except for like these early eighties world class shows, Like I have all of this and I've transferred them all the DVD and they're all in my three ring notebooks, you know, all my you know, they're all in my DVD cases. Like I I've had access to basically every Raw

since Raw aired. So but I'm excited because it makes reading about it in the newsletter and our coverage of it at that time all the more relevant to this whole new audience who now gets actually watch it and experience it. And I know, as a fan, if I were doing that, I'd want to go read what people were writing about it at the time because the coverage of it in context in that moment it is different than looking back on it in hindsight. So it's kind of fun to look at those back issues for

that reason. Yeah, I totally, I totally agree with that. It's it's it's it's it's it's amazing to go back and watch his old raw is just to be blown away. But it's weird to watch it without any kind of without any kind of grounding in, like you know, the writing that was going on. So it's awesome to have all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah, and that the way angles were done, you know, it was

less frequent. I mean, I was watching an early eighties A w A compilation last night, and you know, mister Sayto was there to honor Hulk Hogan for winning the Japanese Championship, you know, the IBGP title from Antonio and ok and and you know Hogan walked in the ring and bowed for mister Sido and the mister Pido through salt at him. And stomped on him and then Hogan's led and all the baby Faces run out to make the save and that was There's four months of business, you know, that was it.

That was like the one that you know, AWA would do three four angles a year, and that was one of them, and it carried the promotion for a few months. So it's just, you know, the pacing of everything is different, and it was different in the beginnings in the early years of raw. The acceleration David, from the first raws to the Mona Night War is probably faster change than at any other period. Yeah, totally true.

I mean it's amazing how much I mean, you know, and like I said when I when I wrote my book, he goes way way back and you know mostly you know all that history too, but it's it's amazing how much of the wrestling industry that we know today is really only a product

of the past, you know, fifteen or twenty years. That's you know, you were you were talking David about the writers who are wrestling fans and they come in and write and I think what has frustrated the most hardcore of hardcore fans, you know, not just the internet fans who are reading cut and pay sites or going on some message board, and they're all kind of

their their own in their own little circle of experts. But like the hardcore of hardcore fans, I mean, I'll self, what's the word I'm looking for. It's self congratulatory. It's not self urriatory. There's no from other core. But torch readers are an example of it. Observer readers are example

of it. People who really study the history of the business and reading a long time, they look at these writers and go, I know, no times more than these guys do because they think everything like they think there have always been hell. Authority figures it's just the way wrestling works, and it's like, no, it's actually a really bad idea except for Vince mc mann and Steeve Austin, and it didn't happen before Vincent Man and Steeve Boston for

a very good reason. It completely screws up the premise of a pro wrestling show, which is it's run by competent people who want to create an even playing field, and you want to give fans hope that the baby face will eventually win and they're not always gonna have the rug pulled out from under them, and there's always an authority figure who's there to correct course when the heels find a way to cheat. That's the way wrestling was always done before vinsic

Man and Steve Austin. But people who are writing for WWE think there's always been authority figures and it's the way it has to be, not knowing it's actually the exception of the rule, and it's only worked really once, and every other time it's sort of worked against good business, and so that's kind of that's the frustration in what you're saying is there's a lot of people who think all the bad habits of the late nineties that they got away with because

Steve Boston was so over, the nWo is so over, and the production values are great. They don't realize all these bad habits don't work unless you're in a hot period that can kind of mask what bad, bad decisions of these are. So are you saying that Dixie Carter is not your favorite personality and professional wrestling right now? I'm I'm saying that a lot of Vicky Guarrew's. I like Vicky Garrew, but you should be hell manager. You know

that the heal manager kind of became the GM. But yes, I am saying I will I will be glad to say DICKX Carter's not my Yeah, I mean I think that I I agree with it. I agree with what you said. I think to a certain extent, the Evince the Vince angle just left the genie out of the bottle and it's kind of hard to put it back in. And I don't know, I agree that it's been overdone,

uh, pretty dramatically. But you know, there's an extent to which these you know, we're we're we're smart fans for the most part, and we know that there are owners and we know that they you know, play a role in the day to day operation of wrestling, and so, uh,

you know, to ignore them, I think would be folly. But the extent to which they've been used, you know, probably especially outside of the w w S and WWE is uh is is it's excess obviously, and even now, you know, I mean i' a lot of people would would prefer to see less of the authority, although you know, they've done a

pretty good job with what they have. Yeah, I think that it's I think it is really I don't I think it's easy to put the genie back on the bottle because you just have a baby face authority figure and you stop talking about ownership, or if you do, you stop having the owners be complete assholes. You know, that was a big problem with with Stephanie's interview in Chicago, where she's like, well, Daniel Brian, we're the only

reason we're here and there's a ring set up is because of us. And when you buy a T shirt, you know, he's basically telling the fans, when you buy a Daniel Brian T shirt, you're putting money in Stephanie and Hunter's pocket our pockets first, Like, you don't tell fans that you you don't introduce that to the show. It's like, it's like tell it's like Fox introducing an NFL broadcast. Going. By the way, when you watch this show, you're funding the far right cable channel. We hope you

know that. All you liberals like, why would you say that? It's you don't need to say that. You should just have a board of directors that have an authority figure who represents every authority figure that preaks that pre existed. Vincent Man going heel in the mid nineties and you do what every successful rescue quotes she ever did, which is have a Bill Watts or a Wally Carbo or whoever as your Fritch Vne Eric in world class, whoever it is

you have. Sometimes they're known to be owners, sometimes they're not, but they're good people who want an even playing field so that the baby Faces prevail and the Heels are constantly fighting the system. You can do that starting tomorrow without any problem. No, And but what the problem is is if USA Network says we want some man's on TV as heels, that's the challenge because that's what you're thinking. That everybody knows Hunter and Vincent staff own and run

the company. But if USA Networks wants them as heels on TV, how do you combat that? Well, I tell USA Network, we're the promoters. We know what we're doing. Please don't force us to do something that's really stupid for business, which is telling all our fans when you buy tickets, you're giving it to a bunch of assholes who don't like you and are trying to hold back and screw over all the baby Faces that you like. But when you buy their T shirt, we actually get richer. Like you

don't do that that's just no sense. You know. When I talked to Trivia As whatever at SummerSlam, it was, uh, what what this didn't make the interview, So this is a scoop. I actually thought this was a great question to ask him. I was like, I said, uh, you know, I know that you watch as a wrestler, You've probably watched as much or more tape, you know than as anybody else, watching old wrestlers and how they got over and all the little tricks of the trade.

And I was like, now that you're an authority figure, do you go back and watch like Wally Carbo and Eddie Marlin tape and see how they did it? And he was just like, no, not really. I was like, Okay, that's that's all. Yeah, but yeah, I mean it is funny, like I love those I love the old authority figures. Uh, it would be great if there could be more of a balance. And I think that it wouldn't surprise me if they're if they're if we got to that point, you know, in the not too distant future.

I I you know, I mean, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Triple As just sort of you know, faded out for the six months between Mania and SummerSlam, just because you know, just to give some other things to try. But I mean, I've been I've really been enjoying them. I think it's I think it's uh, you know, I I agree with like the with the like the literal and like kind of logistical issue with with

about fans not buying shirts. I've been overall really impressed at how at how you know, how how good they've been at playing heel and it really you know, you know, Triple H is not obviously has the reputation for not showing ass, and he's not done that a lot. But you know, I'm not going to say he's gone that far. But Monday they did. But but he's been willing. Oh yeah, Monday he did. And and he's been willing to he's been willing to really put himself out there like he's

he's been. He's gone out on a limb as far as just you know, I mean, just David, you're the I think Stephanie, I want to back up what you said, Like I thought Stephanie had one of her best nights Monday night, Like she's really really good at playing the character. And it would be a shame to not find a way if she wants to be on TV, and you would say, neverwork wants to make men sensev it'd be a shame to not find a place for her to have a role.

And then you have the conundrum, and that's what you're talking about, which is, well, fans know she's you know, a prince owner, and that's the challenge. But Mike, I guess my thinking is, if Triple Ah was really good at juggling and he was the best juggler in the world, if it made raw worse, I'm sorry, you don't get to

display that talent on raw because you're you're cutting ability to make money. So because Hunter and Stephanie are good snide heels and everybody knows they're principal owners, it doesn't mean that you screw up the whole premise of every wrestling company pre Vince Vince Austin by having the wrestling company be evil. And it was even more pronounced the money in Chicago when Stephanie was being nasty in the ring.

But they had that video for talking, as you know, in this cloying fashion and about how, oh, it's just so wonderful that my kids because we don't have a DVD player. Are my kids can now through the network watch my grandpa and their pops wrestle in their prime, or you know, be announcers like why is Stephanie being sweet in one segment within the show? And then not? I don't I don't want to watch Kevin Spacey be a nice person in the middle of a commercial break on House of Cards. It

takes out of the moment. I want to be immersed in the characters as they're presented, and I thought that was really dumb. So I just think there's a better way to do it. There's a way to recast it. And I don't think you should ever portray the idea that the tickets that you buy are going to a bunch of people who the only way their heel characters work is if people really get mad at them. It's not all like, well, I know it's a show, so I don't take it seriously.

Well, if you don't take the hell seriously, you're not going to be excited to see them get beat up. The whole point is to immerse them in that world and as believable of a fashion with as little interference, as little noise as possible that contradicts the story you're telling. Therefore, you don't want fans to think they're supporting a wrestling company run by a bunch of jerks Like I just think that's a dilemma. You should avoid it all cost,

no matter how talented a heal you are. I agree with that. I'll give you that one. Okay, sorry for RENDONH. Larry, you're still with us? Anything else? Oh? I did yeah, real quick. I guess I'll won't ask about this to do movie question. I did the other day. But you were talking about Stephanie there. What the heck? I'll ask all the four members can get mad at me in the movie,

the Scooby Doo movie. I bought it off Boodoo. Yeah, and they have Vincon Triple H in it, and they have a girl in there that you would think would be Stephanie, but then they introduced her as Richard. I was just wondering, if you heard anything why she might have turned down that far. Oh. I don't know, David, any insight on that. I know nothing about it that I don't have a copy of it, and I've been meaning to watch it and I failed as a wrestling writer.

I guess that's really intriguing though you had a chance to review Scooby Doo already and you haven't done it. Shame on you. Yeah. No, I mean I thought I thought it was gonna I mean I had I had a column idea all worked out for it, and and this Daniel Bryant stuff sort of preempted it. So yeah, yeah, now that happens, I understand. All right, let's go to A six for next A six four. Thanks for joining us, Please stay you Navid? Where you're from? Hey?

This is the Nick from Greenville, South Carolinta hey neck. Thanks for calling. What have you got for David today? Yeah? The two quick questions this is, I guess about the man event of Esselmania. I think it's pretty obvious that Daniel's gonna go over on tiple h. Do you think that they're putting I know they played on this earlier about you know, then want they're ready to be happy as in the show, which is you know,

what's what should happen? My question is you think one of the reasons that they're putting Brian and that main event is to possibly cut down on some of the fisive workloads and see how can I put this in a nice way. He can't go you know, he can't really go more than you know, five and six cements without having to take a break. That's a good

point, David. Do you think do you think just the fear that Fatista just at his age and condition wouldn't be able to have wrestle any worthy match played into a little bit or a lot, the idea to make it a

three way to take some pressure of Batiste. That's an interesting Yeah. Well, I mean I defended Batista at the beginning, not for anything else but for the but for the the ring endurance, because you know, I mean people are talking like he's just like dramatically out of shape, and you know, who knows, maybe he is. But you know, in every professional

sport you hear this that you can be in really good shape. But but it's a whole different thing to be in game shape, you know, I mean, just to have that kind of to have your your endurance kind of queued up to working in front of a live crowd with those really specific inner you know, use of energy. But at this point, I think WWE has to be worried about that. I mean, unless unless they're seeing house shows where he's you know, doing thirty minute matches, then that has to

be a concern because you can't have your main event. You can't. You just can't have that much of a variable in in the mid event at WrestleMania. Yeah, And I will say I think had Batista come back in a singles match that went fifteen minutes and people were dogging him, I would be and Batista's side. I think the problem was he was in the rumble and

blew up, you know, within thirty seconds. Like and I'm not saying he didn't have to do a lot on the roll, but I think people look at that as like it didn't take him five minutes or ten minutes to blow up in a one on one match where he got thrown in there. It was in the rumble where you're kind of protected, and I think I think that's where I'm normally I'm with you, Dave. I'm like, let's not you know, let's respect that this is tough to do. You know,

like you're totally ryan. It's very hard to get ring shape or basketball court shape by being on a treadmill. I think it's it's the unique setting of the rumble. And then I think people were a lot harder on him because they wanted Daniel Bryan to win. I mean, I think that was it was kind of this, this this cocktail of everything that just came together and boiled over, and part of it was Batista being winded, and part

of it was Batista's probably the guy who drove Punk into quitting. I think some people think that, and he's the guy who's taken away the main event from Daniel Brian too. Yeah, I agree with Ed. Yeah, you don't have to wait for the weight Killer for wrestling post show to find out what I thought of Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and SmackDown at pwtorch dot

com. My written report will tell you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show, and it will also analyze key segments and give my random thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs. So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night at pwtorch dot com. That also applies to

WWE payperviews. I cover those live at pw torch dot com with a detailed written report with star ratings, and of course you can find other TV reports from other contributors to PW Torch such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling, and more. Check it out pwtorch dot com, your first stop for TV and pay per view written reports. Nick without anything, just a quick question.

This is just an opinion. I'm wondering why have they not been doing anything with dulphinlaz This is just depenion of my I think he's a really, really great worker. You know, Yeah, he had some incredible matches. Just seems like, you know, he's been on the back, burning off quite a while. You know, when he when he does have his matches on RALEIGHATNA far in between lately, he still put on a great show. It just seems like they didn't have nothing to do with him. I don't know

if he's got yeah, no, no good what good topic? David. A year ago, Dulphigler was a hot product, right alongside Daniel Bryant. And it's kind of like watching like two hot rookies and one goes into a sophomore slump in the like say in the NBA or whatever, you know, pick your sport, and then one it just ends up with either a bad second half of a rookie season or a bad sophomore season, and the other one just takes off and is is you know, practically ready for the All

Star Game. Dull Figgers had an awful year? What what what's your what's your interpretation of that? Because a year ago, I don't think there was that big of a difference Brian and Doll's popularity among the insurgent fans who are voicing, you know, who they want to see get pushed. Yeah, I mean I think so. One of the things and obviously I don't know

any of this for for a fact. I mean one of the big things is the end of the brand split and more and and in in a broader sense, ww's you know, creative's kind of inability to to you know, juggle more than one or two balls in the air at a time. You know, they see this despite the fact that they're programming uh be you know,

becomes bigger and bigger. There, there's more and more of it there that they seem to be focusing more and more exclusively on the one or two things that are really working right then, But and you can't discount the concussion situation. You know. I mean you can't. Uh, no one really talks about Brian in this way. But but I but I can. I think you can make the case that one of the biggest contributors of his success is the fact that he's been healthy the whole time. I mean, there's

and you know, I heard from the WWE guy. This is two or three years ago now, before Brian started getting the big push. Someone told me that Vince loved him because he was always there and always willing to do anything. You know, he was always game for whatever angle they wanted to put him in. And part of that is just health and presence, you know. And he's always been around and always been you know, there are probably a lot of guys who would have scoffed at being in team hell know

and doing those sketches with a you know, with the counselor. And he was game and he and like I said, for the past for since, you know, with a couple of really tiny exceptions, he's been totally healthy for the past eighteen months, you know. So it's it's a that's that's a huge difference, I think too. Uh to add a little bit to

it too. I just think that DLP Ziegler is has frustrated management. I think they've told him, don't do so much in the ring, pick your spots and don't overdo it, and he goes out and he hasn't listened, and he's felt like he has to go one hundred miles an hour the whole

time and outshine everybody. And I think that there's a sense among people who decide who gets pushed a new dozen that Dult's not a good listener in that regard, and that his wrestling IQ is too kind of indie rific, you know, which is trying to get those hardcore fans to love me because I'm willing to take the craziest bumps and work one hundred miles an hour. And I'm I was saying it's the right or wrong reaction to that, But I think some of that is at play, which is, if he's not going

to listen to us, we're gonna go. We're you know, all things are equal, We're just gonna go with somebody who listens to us a little bit more. It seems like they're gonna be there to handle that. They really do get over. And I think part of it with Chel Figler two is they should not have turned a baby face unless they're willing to go all

in with them as a babyface. And then the concussion happened, and then he lost all his momentum and he just he's a better heel like I just think they should have kept him here for a couple of years despite the fan reaction and found a way that turned the fans into enjoying booing him as opposed to rebelliously cheering him, and picked the right spot when they were ready to

turn him, when they could really really get behind him. And I felt, well, in that case, it's kind of an example of the fans maybe forcing that I just say force, but influencing managements maybe make a move pre prematurely before management felt Dolph was right for that kind of top baby face push. I really I totally agree with both of those points, and I think, relating more to the first one, I think that there there is a certain way that you can kind of that Dolphins has hurt his career by

being too good at selling. I mean, if that's if that's going to be it's I mean, if that's it's he's he's going to have a great career one way or the other maybe not I mean, not not necessarily a Hall of Fame career, but you know he's in big matches with big names all the time because he can make them all look really good. And you know it's not I mean, you can't even compare him to you know,

somebody like Hogan or whatever. But if your best skill is making other guys look good, then they're going to find spots for you to do that and not necessarily put you up on top. So and it's my job over the years to find or it's been part of my job description over the years to figure find this stuff out whenever I can, and sometimes I done. Sometimes I don't know or I'm not able to pinpoint it. But sometimes there are other factors that have nothing to do with what we see on TV and nothing

to do with crowd reactions. And I'm saying this disclaimer loud and clear. I'm not saying that what I'm about to say applies to Dolf. But there have been cases where guys are really over and popular, but they're known off off air for being disrespectful to women at bars or to a point that even embarrasses and scarce like management, like wow, you know this we can't get

beyond this guy. He's a scant of waiting to happen, or or they're heavy drinkers and they just get they drink way too hard to an unprofessional level and say and do stupid things. So and you can come up with your own set of examples of things that they run their mouths up on Twitter too

much or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it could be it could be very private where let's say that they complain about their push in a way that really lets loose about management and say things that no way would this wrestler want want it to be known that they're saying, but they're saying it to the mole who then to get reports at management. So there's reasons guys don't get pushed. And I'm not saying there are always good reasons, and

I'm not saying we should just say WWE knows what they're doing. Let's sit back and enjoy the ride, because if you study WWE's history, there's many many times that they make mistakes. Many times they've had to correct course. Many times they've been drag kicking and screaming into doing the right thing. And that's just anybody running any company. Is going to have a level of competence, but also times that they're right, times that they're wrong, And there

are times when they I think they should have pushed wrestlers. They didn't and there was no good reason. But there are times where I look back and I go, yeah, everybody wanted this guy to get pushed, But I learned a couple of years later. We learned a couple of years later they couldn't rely on this guy to handle the pressure and represent the company if they

gave them the type of push that fans wanted. So again, I'm not saying this case with doulf because I think our reasons that are public David and known and guessable are are enough. But yeah, I mean that's what happened with Eddie's first push, right, I mean, they didn't they take the

tidele away from him because he wasn't ready for it. Well, there was pres there was a feeling that Eddie would take being world champion really, really really seriously and it would put undue pressure on him, and that pressure would lead to more drug abuse and he would just you know, not he wouldn't be honest. A lot of guys get in that position where I should say a lot, but it's happened. Second, guys get a big push, or if they get a world title, they will think it's their only chance

and they have to push through no matter what. And if they if they give up, or if they show any weakness, that's their last chance. So they have to push through while they can still make money. And yeah, there's times where you get signals of a guy who just can't handle that pressure at that moment in time, and it's actually kind of cruel to then give him his dream at the worst possible time physically or mentally for him.

Yeah, yeah, all, let's try squeeze in one more call, maybe two in the last minute or two here on the live test second three four seven. You are up next, Please station, you name and where you're from. Hello, this is Christian, New York. Hey, Chris, but you've got for David to me today. Oh, I have two questions.

The first one is about Randy Savage. Don't you think it's the critical that VUH sells DVDs on him, puts him on the network, makes money on him, and yet they won't at least put him in the Hall of Fame. And the second question is about Sting. If Sting does not show up in d V because they won't give him not Undertaker, do you think he's being shout missed in that regard. Oh, he has the right not to sign unless they give him the match he wants. Chris, what's your

source for Sting won't sign because he wants Undertaker? From from reading it on p W second that that was his he says he was hoping to wrestle Undertaker at Wrestle many have thirty and and you're saying that we reported that that's the only reason he didn't sign with him. I just want to clarification that because I think that's jumping the gun over you said. Okay, okay, Chris. Thanks. Yeah. I was just sure, Chris, I'm so short

on time. I don't want to I'm sorry to cut you off. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't some report out there that was stronger than what we said. I mean, Sting talked about that, But I don't think that he would just refuse to sign with WW because of that. But David, yeah, your thoughts on Randy Savage instent, Well, I mean,

I you know, I don't think this is novel. But the Randy Savage thing, as far as I can tell, is just entirely just about, you know, the film catalog that the Pafo family has and just negotiating for kind of lifetime legends rights to to Randy's memory and the whole family. I mean, he's going to go in. You know, if all the guys that, if all the guys that deserve to be first ballot Hall of Famers win in the first year, then there'd be nobody left induct anymore,

you know, And I think that be it. Next year, the year after, you know, we're going to see a big Randy Savage induction ceremony and everybody will be able to breathe a sigh of relief. But I mean, do you do you know anything different than that. I mean, that's

that's been my impression the whole time. I Mean, the reason Randy going back years and years and years wasn't in as vincick Man at a meeting when the Hall of Fame first got brought up or first started, somebody brought up Randy Savage and they were told to bring up Rdy Savage his name in Vincent Van's presence because of an incident that happened beyond the scenes many many years ago, and Randy was dead to him before, while he was still alive,

by the way and not trying to be cute. And that cloud has hung over Randy Savage for a very long time. And I do think that he would be in the Hall of Fame already if it weren't for something that was very deeply personal to Vince that happened with Randy, that that caused him to want to not honor him in any way. And he was pretty much the sole guy on that list of people who were Hall of Fame worthy who Vince

didn't want anything to do with being in the Hall of Fame. I don't know if time has healed that wound or Randy dying helped soften that, but I think that's still at play too, David, just you know. But so Chris is right in that respect of we don't want honor in the Hall of Fame, but we want to make a lot of money off of him. I mean, I guess by definition it probably fits hypocrisy, but it also shows the softening of the stance because they're willing to promote him and and

champion his accomplishments. Yeah, you know, so, so I think it's a softening of that stance, and I think it's it's I think you're right. I think it's a matter of time. But you know, Landy Poplo said on this very show that Randy Savage had said that before he died that he didn't want he would he refused to go in the Hall of Fame unless

they inducted his brother Landy and his dad at the same time. And Lanny said, you know, if Lanny holds holds to that, that could be a hiccup in things too, because wwe might say, you know, that's nice, but you know, we just we just want to on a Randy. He's the guy who deserves to be in it. So I think there's it's a complicated situation, just you know, addressing Chris's question. Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn some wrestling history, don't miss the

nineties pass cast Every Friday on the PW Torch Daly Cast feed. Alex and Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by taking you through the Torch issue from that very weak. Follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time, as The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties past cast every Friday for the PW

Torch Daily Cast feed. How about Sting, David Well, I was under the impression that thing's been and this is you know, I don't know who's who's talked about this much at all, but I'm I'm my impression is that Sting's sort of been available to WWE for for you know, at several times over the past three four five years, and WWE has just been a little bit I don't know if luke warm is the right word, but but not quite as enthusiastic as as Sting was or as Sting would have liked him to

be. And I'm sure that they did. You know that they have discussions about did Sting Undertaker at WrestleMania, But at the end of the day, I think that they'd prefer to have to not give that spot to someone who's not a WWE guy. I think it hurts too that Undertaker. I don't think with trust being in the ring with the guy in his mid fifties who doesn't wrestle full time because I'm taker. I don't want to ruin his gimmick.

But Mark Callaway is scared to death again hurt in the ring, you know, I mean his matches that could be planned out, move or move, and Steve Borden Sting is notoriously well known for forgetting spots two minutes into

a match. He has the equivalent of me when I would sit down to take my economics test in college, and everything that I knew the night before when I studied went blank as because a test got set in front of me, And so I sympathize with it. But Sting is forgetful on promos, and he's forgetful in the ring, and he's old, and he doesn't wrestle

full time. And Mark Callaway may not want all other factors erased, might not want to put his health in the hands of Sting or get in ring shape as best Mark Callaway can and have the match fall apart and be bad. So I think that's part of it too, is just a health concern. I just think Sting at this point is in no position to make demands,

and I don't think he will. I think the thinking now is he'll come in after WrestleMania because they felt they had enough for WrestleMania, and he didn't resign with T and A because he'll come in as something special to introduce, to be part of WDW network and and be part of something that will probably lead to him being in the Hall of Fame next year. Right that that that's my best guess right now? Yeah, that sounds about right. I mean, and listen, I there's a there's a big part of me

that would mark out for an Undertaker Sting match. But you know when it when it plays, when that match happens in my head, it happens twenty years ago, you know, like it's not or at least that Yeah,

yeah, I mean it's not like the idea. I mean, one of the hardest things about wrestling is seeing you're seeing the gods you grew up with age right, been in front of your eyes and and and you know, some there there are some matchups like that, and in particular that that might be a little bit hard to watch just for you know, the way that it was just a procession of mortality. You know, there're in front of you. Yeah, yeah, I would love to see it on some level,

but I think I can I think I can. That's one that I can do with that at the end of the day. Yeah. Yeah, And I think even three years ago it might have worked. I think if people who have been watching TNA have seen Stings work, I'd say declined the last three years noticeably. And you know, even five year years ago he kind of looked like the old Sting. I mean it was, you know,

stand up rawls with Jeff Jarrett or whatever. But you know, it's just it really was the last few years where you started looking and thinking this might not be a good idea. I don't think you have to go back twenty years. I think you go back at at least three, but maybe four or five, and it's and it's doable. And but you know, Undertaker has had too many good matches lined up that made too much sense otherwise, So yeah, I'm not I mean, if Sting wants to face Undertaker,

that's fine. If Sting requires that he faces the Undertaker to sign with WWE, that just seems kind of stupid and not really something I would believe. I think I think I don't think Sting would go that far. I agree. Yeah, cool, David, you have a feoture minutes. For a PF, you have to show cover a couple of email questions and other topics. Sure, okay, cool, excellent. I want to thank all the live cast listeners for joining us vi IP. David Chumaker has been my

guest. Check out his writing on pro wrestling on a regular basis at grant land dot com and also his book The Squared Circle. What was the full title again? I want to get the full title of Life, The Squared Circle, Life, Death and Professional Wrestling. I should have said it because that's what I was going to guess that. I just was scared to get

it wrong. I appreciated that. Thank you David for your time. Check it out in bookstores and on Amazon of course, or your nook, and you can also get a free copy at audible trial dot com slash pro Wrestling torch and David still gets cut of it, so don't feel bad taking it free. All right, until next time? And Mick carsh by the way, scheduled to be a guest next week. He had to cancel the last two weeks on US due to some scheduling issues, but he has scheduled to

be on next week. We're going to talk about the late great Billy Robinson. Mccarsh eye witnessed his career and Mick also follows current WWE closely, and we'll talk about the conviction of Buck zoom Off in a very creepy story speaking of a WA in the eighties and and much more, long time wrestling announcer going back to the seventies, the head of the Nick Bockwinkle fan club,

announcer for the a w A on ESPN and the eighties. Mickcarsh my guest week a repeat guest, and he is actually a Next Torch columnist dating back to the late nineteen eighties. So join us next Friday for that. But we'll be here every weekday between now and then five point thirty Eastern Tuesday through Friday, and the hour before Raw on Mondays. Thanks everybody, all right, we're now at the VP after show portion of the program. David,

thanks for your time. I really appreciate you sticking around. No problem at on cool. Let's hit a few other subjects. VIP member Scott Briller emailed in and he said, my question concerns Daniel Brian. It looks like Brian will finally win the title at WrestleMania. Does Brian, though, need to win the title to remain w W He's most popular wrestler. Well we might,

we might debate that that's an interesting question in and of itself. Or can he be like Sina where he does not need to be champion to remain number one or the face of the company in question number two, This is a long shot, but Couldvinced throw curve at WrestleMania and turned Daniel Brian heal, he would go from most loved to most hated. David for your thought on the first part, Daniel Brian does he need the title to stay popular?

And I'll add my sub question, is Daniel Brian more popular than John Cena? I mean, I'm gonna trust in numbers, guys who can who seem to think that? I mean, who say pretty definitively that that Sena is you know, still ahead and merchant ticket sales and all that kind of stuff. So, uh, you know, they're different kinds of popular right now. Daniel Brian, you know, has is riding a wave, you know, a movement if you will, and h and there's no reason so

far to think that's going to subside. But I think the WWE in particular is looking at it as as you know, a wave like it might last a week, it might last year, but it's this is definitely sort of uh, you know, he has He's gonna come back to earth at some point. I'm saying that. I mean, and that's not necessarily my point of view, but there but uh wait, what was the original question? Yeah, well, does he does he need the title or remain popular?

Yeah, I mean I think he needs it certainly more than Seena does. I mean, I think at this point that the storyline demands that he win the title, and I think that, uh, you know, anything less

than that will will hurt him. I mean, it might not diminish him in the eyes of his big of his fans, but it will certainly diminish him in the sense that people will perceive that, you know, Vincent Hunter decided not to give him the title, and uh, and that will I mean, that might in some ways, that might make some people even more ardent in their support of him, but that'll but it it will diminish his character in that way. And you know, I think at some point he's

got to win. And I mean, you kind of have to establish yourself as a champion before you can be the guy who doesn't need the belt. A few notable exceptions like Andre may be excluded from that, but you know it'll it'll be I'm not like I said, I'm not one hundred percent sure he's gonna win at Mania, but but the the goal definitely has to be

to put the belt on him, at least for a little while. His second question was, Couldvin throw curve and turn Daniel Brian Hill I think the more likely scenario, and I want to throw this into the mix in your

answer. The more likely scenario, although still I think at five percent or less and that may be overstating it is see on Punk making a surprise to turn at WrestleMania and costing Daniel Brian the title, setting up extreme rules, Paul Hayman managing that he'll see on Punk because Punk would rather be heel against the baby face Daniel Brian who got cheated out of the title. Brian fues with Punk all summer, then gets a title matching against Batist at Summer Slimon

wins it. That's scenario in various forms that have been presented by people kind of creatively thinking of what might happen. But so that scenario, along with what about danger Brian going hell? What do you think of either of those? I find I mean, I don't know what to think about punk anymore. I'm just gonna I'm sort of I'm sort of I mean, that sounds awesome. I'm sort of willing to let that go until until you know he's

actually back. As far as far as Brian turning heel, I mean, it's almost like Seena turning heel, except except well actually not, I mean, but the opposite if Brian turned heel, I have a hard time imagining anybody booing him, Like, how would we know if Brian turned heel, if he like shaved his beard and put on a suit, would that be him turning heel? We would people actually boo him? I don't know, Uh, you know, I mean you saw it obviously he obviously when he

joined up with the Waatt family that wasn't a heel turn. But I guess you can wonder whether or not that was a little bit of a test run for how fans would react if he started doing something. You know that there wasn't a strictly babyface, and you know, they just kept right on cheering for him. The whole time. I mean, that was obviously the point too. But you know, I think that of all the storylines in the world that don't need to swerve finish, Daniel Brian finally vanquishing the authority and

winning the title is that storyline. I totally agree. I think it would be a terrible for all the reasons you just said. I'm concurring it would be a terrible idea to turn to Dannil Brian because I don't know how you would actually do it and have it work. I don't even think Daniel Brian could turn heel and see unpunk. I mean, that's just like, I don't know who you'd have to turn. I don't I think if he attacked

hol Hogan, fans would assume Hogan was turning heel because Daniel. People would think, oh, Hogan must have done something disrespectful to Daniel Bryan, something horrible to cause Brian to do that to him. Like I just, yeah, I don't know where you could go with him speaking to Hogan. He introduceds on Monday, we didn't even get into this. David the under the

Giant Battle Royal. Jeff from Michigan emailed and said, will this be a good thing for WrestleMania, and could they turn into something special like Money on the Bank or is it just going to be another forget about Battle Royal.

I think it's gonna be awesome. I think that the biggest thing that it does is it allows them to have a big WrestleMania moment that sort of combines a lot of the less significant I mean, the stuff that that could have kind of been overlooked at WrestleMania. For a while, I was wondering how that what they were going to do with the sort of with the various giants, you know, with Big Show and with Mark Henry and and you know,

how they were going to give them a moment. I don't know, if you know, I have not read SmackDown spoilers, so I don't know if I don't know what happens this week, but I don't know, so I don't know what who they've they've included in it. But it wouldn't surprise me at all to see the real Americans end up in the Battle Royal and have their angle sort of play out there. And frankly wouldn't have surprised me at all to see that be the moment. I mean to have the whole

point of the Battle Royal is for Cuzar to giants wing. I mean, big show and have that be the finish. But but you know, I think it's gonna be a big moment and it allows one more uh you know, it allows them to kind of toss all this stuff together and make a big match out of it. Now if it I don't know if this is going to be an annual thing or not, but it certainly it's something from the pull out of the back pocket every once in a while. And you

know, it does have that amazing trophy. And I don't think you know if if if a trophy exists in pro wrestling, it's gonna get busted over somebody's head. So literally just said that last night watching the mister Sayato Ho Cogan Agle. It's so funny. You said that's whenever there's cake or a trophy, it gets broken. I said that last night to somebody was watching Awa stuff with and sure enough, mister Cyito actually was embarrassing because mister SAIDO

swung the trophy and it broke before it hit Ogan. It was a gimmick trophy and cellfarer, So we had to hit him with a base of it instead, and that's what got the blood. But yes, you're yes, you're right. I got the impression and I don't know that it's it was explicit. But I came away thinking it would be an annual event because it's just a good way to get everybody in the card on WrestleMania, because I think very much to so many people, I like it for that reason.

I'm I'm a little worried it just ends up being on the pre show is kind of like you know, the throwaway, you know, ten man tag match type of thing. I want them to make it special. I want them to be something. I hope what Jeff says it's true that it's it's intricately booked and that, like you said, there's a storyline that's memorable. There's a WrestleMania moment for people, and it's not just everyone getting the ring, hit each other, stand in a corner, watch some people fight,

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Yeah yeah, no, I mean, I I it's been a long time since we've seen I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, since we've seen a legit Battle Royal in any kind of like you know, big and I mean I know there's been Diva's Battle Royals, but to have that kind of like high profile match with so many people starting in the ring at the same time, I mean, those things are I'm sure just impossible to book

and end plan out. So I agree with you too. If it's just sort of like you know, if it's just ugly, that's not going to be much of a WrestleMania memory. How about I just want your thoughts on a whole Cogan and its usage so far. I thought, you know, the first week it was sort of like, yeah, you know it's better, Yeah, that's but this this last Monday, I thought Seen and Ogus standing in the ring together was kind of no matter what you think of Hogan

and Seen it kind of epic, like a big moment. Seena and Hogan together was the best part. Hogan is still in this weird mode where he's like sort of the Hogan robot, you know, like he just he was better than his first appearance, but you know, he just kind of just you know, does all the catchphrases, does all the brothers, and puts over the network, you know, with it with ad nauseum. I guess

it's like the full string. You just think you got a Hogan doll in your pulling the string exactly, so I thought, but it's cool to have him back, and you're right if you can if you can use those scene of moments and you know, moments with other superstars effectively, then you know, there's sort of an endless number of really great uses for him. But you know, such as it is, I'm kind of glad they gave him

the Rumbles. I mean, let's say I called it the Rumble. They gave him the the Battle Royal too, because that sort of it sort of clarifies. But his role at WrestleMania is going to be, you know, I mean, I guess it's possible that he does a lot more than that, but at least that makes that makes it a little bit easier to wrap your mind around, and you're not going to be looking for him to you know, run in and leg drop Brian and reform the nWo in the main

of or something, you know. I mean, it's I mean, it's it's that's gonna be his thing, and hopefully they'll make really good use of him. But that'll be the extent of the use of him. So I will update although VIP this will be the VIP portion has heard after I uploaded to the site. It's not live and people they care probably looked it up by now. But Johnny Hendrick did make weight by the way, on his

second attempt. Oh he did good. Yeah, so final matches on and no, although I think I think we have a story about Mma Torch that the title would have been on the line anyway even if he didn't make weight. But I just clised at that line because that's trying to by attention to what the show that we're doing here. But I wanted to get a quick update and hit refreshed. So yeah, interesting story. Let's let's let's talk

about Sena and bray White. We got a good question from Vince who says Vince B who says, we all know that John Cena stalic humor and through. Okay, there's a type of in there is cringe worthy. Uh. It usually is fine and probably makes a portion of the audience last sincerely, But he does not seem to understand how is he is counterproductive to his opponents.

James Caldwell called it the Sena test, where he perhaps is trying to see if his opponents are fast on their feet, but the way he does it, there's no way to come back, Like how he completely destroyed del Rio's gimmick when he blurted out that his cars are rentals. In contrast, you just have to look at Magnus for last from last week's Impact. He went out of his way to make Simo Joe sound like the most dangerous man on the planet. John Cena would just make man boob jokes and kill all

of Joe's badassery. So my question is where did John Cena learn this? I get that as rapper, gimmick was about making fun of his opponents, but there's a difference between making fun of someone and dressing them down. The company is filled with brilliant wrestling minds who are bigger stars than him, as well as I'm sorry who are bigger stars than him, as bigger stars than him Comma, as well as guys with seniority ranging from semi aive wrestlers to

the legends, as well as the agents and whatnots. So why doesn't anyone tell him that his way is not best for business? Interesting question? What do you think? David? Yeah, I think he did that question kind of answered itself. I mean, I don't know what I mean it had. I mean, he's right about what Sena does and is promo on Monday against Bray. Why it was just ridiculous. I mean to be saying, like margaer Riteville, this generation is the undertaker, you know, is just

sort of is just nonsensical. Uh. But you know, I mean to some extent that'll be forgotten as as it goes on. And I will say that that Sina engaging with him as a real person, to me at least, is preferable to Sina engaging with him as if he's actually like you know, some some some you know, druid using the dark arts or something like that, you know, or that he's actually like a threat to see his

life. Uh, that would not be preferable. And we've definitely seen Seena you know, seene a feuds in the past where he was, you know, fighting Umaga or whatever monster of the month it was, and he did kind of oversell the gravity of the situation and that wasn't any better. But it was a really weird It wasn't a really weird scene. On Monday, it'll be a kind of an interesting to see how they walked that tire rope

going forward, because that can't be ideal in anybody's eyes. But I don't know who's telling him, I mean, my I mean, I don't think that it's If I had to guess, I would say that it's not. I mean that it's there's no conspiracy or anything. I would just guess that Seena got really over doing that gimmick, and at a time when not a lot in WWE was getting over, and the conventional wisdom has just let him keep going because he figured something out. Yeah, yeah, well, the

the Bray whitet movement into the main event, just facing John Cena. I think that when we first heard it it felt not WrestleMania worthy, and then and then came the Brian turn, and it was maybe going to lead to Brian against Bray, they'd break up in time for WrestleMania, and then they went back to why a't Sina once that thing didn't play out. I think that's the generally agreed to timeline e Vince kind of evolving on what to do

with scene and what to do with Brian the last few months. I didn't think it felt WrestleMania worthy, and I agree with all the criticism of Sina's promo money, and it was just in recusable for him to do that. But I think with Hogan now standing side by side with Sina and on the

postgame show on Raw. Hogan didn't promo where he said or he did an interview where he said, I have seen his back, And I get the sense we got several more weeks ago before Mania that Hogan might end up getting more involved where not so much like he's in a tag matchal scene against you know, the Wyatt family. Although they they could do that if Hogan could pass a physical and they felt good with it. I don't think they will

at all. But Hogan could be part of the heat that the White family gets, like they could attack Hogan or or threaten to attack him, and it kind of ends up being Hogan more than just a host of Mania, because that was maybe just the cover story for him to have an excuse to be on TV. But he actually gets involved in a way in this feud where bray Wyatt gets a rub from essentially feuding with Hulk Hogan along with John Cena, and I think bray Wyatt can can come out of this really elevated.

I mean, as a guy at his mid twenties that management's really high on, has great pedigree. I just think bray Wyat couldn't end up being made by this wrestle medium more than he already has been in the feud with the Shield and everything else he has done. We just have to keep John scene away from you know, dressing him down on television. But did you come away from any feeling the same thing that Wow, I have the way Hogan's being used, Bray could end up being the huge winner in this.

Yeah, I mean there's not I totally agree. I totally agree. And and Bray, uh, you know, has all the makings of a guy who can be a really central, you know, headliner, cater wrestler performer. But you know, I mean, you're right, I've been impressed so far with how with how organic the feud was. Seena has seemed, I mean, now as he hasn't been a huge central storyline, but uh,

it hasn't felt entirely like a step down for seeing in execution. I agree with you know, you that in theory it seemed sort of like a weird, a weird storyline. I mean, part of it was when Sena cut that promo I guess right before his last match with Orton where he said, you know, this is the end of this feud and from now on, I'm you know, fighting young guys He didn't say that really explicitly, but

he said it pretty explicitly. I mean, I think that's uh, I mean, this might be the pass to Scena getting over I mean amongst even the smart fans. I mean, for the longest time, his gimmick has sort of been And he said this, and when he was in the ring with Brian one time several months ago, where he basically said, you know, I'm not I'm not gonna be everybody's favorite wrestler, but I'm gonna make their favorite, right, I'm gonna I'm gonna make their favorite wrestlers matter.

Because that's what I mean, that's what's happened with Punk and with Brian, you know, like with that in the absence of John Cena, neither of those guys get what they've got, you know. And uh, And if he just kind of makes that his gimmick now, or he's just sort of the king maker just giving guys a shot and letting him think or swim, that you know, kind of makes John johnsena interesting for the first time in a long time. Although if that's his goal, it's not really letting them

sink or swim. If he's taking very wide and shoving his head underwater, and some people would say that's what he did on the promo on Monday too, Like John has to if what you're saying is correct, John has to realize you can't I want to be the kingmaker while you know, just undressing these gimmicks on television. I mean the Dell Real one where he said his cars were rentals. I just I mean, I still, I still just my jow just dropped. It was one of those moments Where'm like John Cena's

wrestling IQ, I can't think of an excuse. I can't think of an excuse. I mean, there's a lot of times where I'm like, well, maybe there's, you know, a way of thinking that's different than mine, that that this is okay. I just can't imagine. Like I just think Sena's wrestling IQ sometimes is really low and he's just kind of kind of insulated and protected from criticism. And I think there's some truisms about the way he does things where he doesn't know and no one will tell him because he's

John Cena. And that even came across to me in his interview with Steve Austin. I thought there's a lot of things he said that were really smart and admirable, but there were a few times I thought Steve Buston was biting his lip a little bit. Yeah, No, I agree. I think

that's I think that's that's totally right. I mean, I think the insulation is is real, and I think that I mean, you definitely see times in every interviewer that he does where he's either being he's either deliberately holding back or just sort of missing something, and and uh, you know, it's it's hard, it's hard to know. It's hard to know without knowing the

guy. But yeah, I mean I think that what I was saying, I meant separately from that whyatt promo, that'll just be a one time thing and I and and we won't be worrying about that, you know, in a couple of weeks. But uh, you know, I guess to be you know, I mean, bray White, I mean, the bray White gammit going forward is going to be really interesting because it can't be like the

early Undertaker run. I mean they can't and they haven't been doing it, but they can't act like you know, there's something like like metaphysical going on with these characters. Because fans will just roll their eyes. They've walked the line really well so far. You know, they managed to they managed to turn Brian without using you know, smoke and explosions and anything like, you

know, and just been weird promos set around a campfire or whatever. Right, Yeah, well that could have been the way that they would have gone. That is the way they would have gone, you know, a while back. But uh, you know, so it I don't think that there's any problem necessarily with sort of humanizing them a little bit. And the scene it can be the vehicle for that, that's fine, But the way that

he did it on Monday is not fine at all. So it was when you said think er swim, I like literally in my mind just saw scenas like literally just shoving very wide underwater and then pulling him up and going swim and then pushing him underwater. And yeah, like I just like that visual just came to me. And I don't know, I'm I would be curious, and it's something I just I need to ask around. I'm just curious if there's anybody who speaks truth to sina, you know, the speak truth

to power type thing. Is there anybody who can just talk to scene and Sina will listen. Like Austin, I thought it was this remarkable moment in the Officin interview on this Keebosson podcast where he said, John, can you do me a favor and and and be a little snugger on that scf do it for me? And it was like, there's almost like you can't count them on one hand. There aren't five people who can get away with saying that to John Cena in this world. Yeah, and Steve Austin did it.

And then Sina kind of il self deprecating and going, oh, it made me feel bad for Randy and all that. But like Austin, you know, Austin watches Scena's matches with a critical eye because Austin's such a student of the game and that's the stuff that he really cares about as a worker.

And Seena's awful in that regard in certain ways. And I just I just like almost applauded, you know, while listening to it, like, thank you Steve for saying it, because Seene of us have been insulated from anybody telling him how awful this really simple whole books the way he applies it. Yeah, I mean I might have said this to you for some reason, I feel like the last time that we were talking, but there was Brian. Actually, Brian told me this when I was interviewing him, that

there was a show where Austin was backstage. This is probably like a year ago, two years ago something like that, and and was just chatting with Sena and he's like, how's everything going, and Seene's like great, great, you know, the show's going really well or whatever, and Austin just shook his head and pointed out to the crowd. He said, when I was when I was headlining, all those seats were full, and you know, it's just like, yeah, I guess things aren't great, you know,

but but you know, it's it's true. It's true. I mean, there's not that many guys that can do it, and it's the guys they come before and that really can and most of them not a lot of those guys are willing to do it, you know. I mean, it's just not that they're scared, but it's just they'd rather be buddies, you

know. And and it's cool that often does that kind of thing. Every Sunday night, Catch Wrestling Night in America on PW Torchdailycast dot Com hosted by me PW Torch calumnist Greg Parks. Each week, I'll welcome a co host from the Torch family to discuss the big shows and pro wrestling, taking York calls and emails. You can listen live most week's beginning at eight pm Eastern. On Sunday nights with a WWE or Impacts pay per view, we go

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Torchdailycast dot com. Well that was Ben's question, actually, and I don't have a good answer, which is why aren't there more agents telling Sena and you know what he needs to hear and that these are bad ideas. And I mean, I do know you know that some of the producers in WWE feel like their opinions aren't welcome, you know, I know Jerry Lawler has said that over the years that like, I mean, Jerry, you grew

up watching him. Jerry Lawler has would be so helpful just so many guys in WWE on how to cut promos, how to carry themselves, how to like. We had a caller in the live cast on Tuesday who said Jerry Lawler would be great, a great coach for AJ Styles because AJ had made such an impressive appearance on the live cast a couple months back and people were just blown away, like Wow, this was a lot better than we expected

it to be. And this caller on Tuesday said, AJ's better when he's not doing the wrestling promo, the yelling, the angry, the demonstrative thing, but he's just being more Jerry Lawler, like like plane spoken and picking his spots. And Jerry, I know, has been frustrated over the years that management hasn't recognized that is something that he could actually work with wrestlers on.

And I think what happened is Jerry, somewhere in the nineties just gave up being hurt by it and just said I'm here to get paid, I'm going to do my thing, I'm going to do what Vince wants me to do. I'll play my role, even if it's not the role I would play if I were in charge. And I just wonder how many smart people arn Anderson picked the agent, pick the producer, who are just in that same position that maybe Lawler was, where they feel beaten down and they just

think, you know, nobody wants my opinion. So I'm just going to shut up and collect my paycheck and do my job. But man, it's tough to bite my tongue. And Austin is the one guy with a clout not to do it. As Austin always says, he did it when I interviewed him and when I was on his show and we were critical of the product, he says, And he has a good phrase he uses, but he said, David, I've earned the right to be critical of WWE. Yeah, like, and he's right, he has. And who's gonna tell

him any different? Yeah, nobody, I mean, and that's one of the great things about I mean, it's one of the great things about him, just kind of in general. And yeah, I talking about what you're talking about with the guys who are you know, the agents or whatever that might be too sort of you know, beaten down to really give, you know, to give, to say what they really saying, to do what

they really want to do. I mean, if there's only a handful of those guys backstage, that's more toxic than anything else, you know, I mean just having people. I mean, and this is not a knock on them. If it's the workplace, it's got him that way. But there's nothing more toxic than guys showing up just to collect a paycheck, I know. And now I mean for any line of work. And I'm not just talking about wrestling, So you know, it's you should we should hope that

it's not that way, but it wouldn't surprise me if it is. When Jake Roberts was on the show, you know, Jake wants to be either on the creative team or on the or producer for WWE, and there's just things about his reputation that are knowing and things that are that just kind of

work against that happening. But he would be great. Like he said, I want to get my hands on Randy Orton, and he said, Bob called him up and said, you know, this was a few years ago, but he says, you know, oh you know, and he imitated Bob Orton. It was great. Jake did a good Bob Ordon. He's like, you know, you got to get my son, pull him aside

and give him that something extra that he's missing that he needs. And Jake's like, Oh, if I could just have a couple of weeks with with with Randy, you know, work working with him on body language and promos, I could get him to that next level. And I think there's a

lot of people who feel they could accomplish that for different wrestlers. And I think that's one of the things WWE in their structure could be better about, is not having the people on top the and secure or absent minded, whichever it is, where they dismiss a lot of smart people who have a lot of areas especialty where they could help other people get better at what they do. Yeah, I mean could you I mean why could they not do that

in at the performance center? Why could they not hire you know, three different guys to be to be working with promos and then you know, six months later, just see who's doing a better job of it. You know. I mean, if if someone can't hack it, they can't hack it. But they do have the ability sort of and you know, down in Florida to to maybe hire somebody like Jake and to uh quell some of the

concerns about him, you know, about his personal life trial. Yeah, I mean, and just like you know, life not on the road, you know, is a big thing for guys in his position. So you know, I think that there's there, there are a lot of options, and I you know, and who knows. I don't think that it's I don't think it's you know, it's it's necessarily something they wouldn't do. But

you know, I there, there's there's there. You know that the developmental is has been evolving a lot, and you know, hopefully they'll they'll come up with some of the ideas like this on their own so they can feel good about doing them because they're not gonna take They're not gonna take our recommendation

final subject. And my time is kind of limited too, So I've got a I got a run, But I don't want to go through an interview with you and not ask what you think about Brock and Takers so far and the hype in the angle, the angles they'ved on the last stuff a few weeks, I'll say, I mean, I've said this before, but you know, I didn't know how excited I was going to be for Brock Taker until I saw him in the ring together. I mean I I saw on paper, I was just like, yeah, that'll be a good match.

But like I was kind of like, you know, I had been imagining, actually had been imagining Taker Brian for you know, three four months back, and and you know that, you know, I had that in my head. And there are some other things I probably would have rather seen than two guys who are part timers just sort of you know, just just run butting heads and taking up a spot. I mean not taking like It's not

like I don't I don't know it sound that dismissive. It's I mean, they're two great wrestlers who I always enjoy watching, but you know, you put two part timers in the ring together, and it's sort of hard to make it feel significant. But you know, with with the same minimal, you know, build up that they seem to do every year with the Undertaker,

it does feel really significant, at least to me. I mean maybe maybe I'm just you know, more of a mark for those guys than I thought I was, you know, And and and you know, one of the big things that really helped me was that was that Hayman Chicago promo where he was able to mention seeing Punk, because that was what had been really been missing from the storyline in the previous week or two, was that, you know, Hayman is the Hayman is the fiber that connects last year and

this year for that match and and to to to be forced to ignore it. I'm not knocking WW for what happened before because they didn't know what was gonna happen with Punk, so they didn't really know what to do with it. But but you know, it was a lot better once that was sort

of out in the open. And uh and you know, I mean it's I don't think there's any way that Undertaker's gonna drop, gonna you know, drop the street to brock Lesner. But I mean, even if I knew was one hundred percent certainty that the Taker was gonna go over, there's just something there's just you you're scared for the Undertakers saying him standing next to brock

Lesner and that's a really awesome thing. Yes, yeah, yeah, I just I hope that they didn't do too much damage by taking away that moment of building up to the moment of Undertaker slamming Brock through a table, you know, like I thought that was just giving too much away, that that was like, you know, a whole program, a whole feud in two minutes or ten minutes in that I think you want to, you know, build to that anticipation of what will happen when they're physical with each other for

the first time, and that that worried me a little bit. But I think Brock being on a RAM page for the next few weeks and Paul Hayman may be starting to act scared that, you know, Brocks, that Undertaker slam and Brocks, that's something off in Brock, I think can get people fearful for Undertaker. But I do think you have You're right that that aspect in play is what's accomplished. No matter who wins. If Brock ends the streak, well maybe Undertaker is going to retire anyway, but now a guy

ended the streak who isn't going to be around full time ever again. And if Undertaker beats Brock, well, Brocks lost before and it'll just be somebody next year, Like it's ww's challenges you have to get add something to it, hopefully and not take away from what you experienced. Then I agree, is there which is holy crap, look at these doing the ring together.

But you want to add a little more to that, hopefully and not through a premature angle where Brock is selling the crap out of a choke slam. You don't want to take away from what organically is there if you just kind of let it be. Yeah, I mean, it's been my opinion for a while that that, you know, despite Undertaker being such an old school kind of guy, there's that the most valuable thing to WWE's for the streak

to remain intact forever. I mean, it's gonna it's it's the DVD sales are more important than whatever a little rub it would give whoever it would be. And it's impossible to imagine the guy who needs that rub and who WW would actually allow to have that rub, you know. I mean, Daniel Bryan may have been the one guy who is sort of at that level where it would have really boosted his profile and where he was also you know,

where WW had the confidence in him to do it. But they're not just gonna give it to They're not going to give it to you know, Dolph Ziggler and then let you know, let him leave the company in six months or whatever. You know. I mean, it's there's just no the equation for for how that would happen is just so it's just it's so minimal. I don't know what is the term for when two circles have an area that

they overlap. Cocentric circles. Yeah, there's that that overlap where there's there's a circle of guys who are worthy of being against Undertaker at WrestleMania, And that's a small circle. You know, there's some like, there's a lot of guys who would benefit from beating Undertaker. That's a huge circle of people who would benefit from beating him. It's almost everybody on the roster. But who deserves to be against Undertaker? That's a really small circle. And then

where is the overlap? Where is somebody who will benefit Brock wouldn't, you know, you know, John Cena wouldn't. That'd be a waste. So who benefits who also is worthy of that spot where you're not wasting it and taking away drawing power. And it's that's where you go, maybe Daniel Bryant this year, and I made it. I made a case a couple months

ago on the Keller Hotline. Someone asked a question. I just kind of agreed that Ruman Rains might have been might this year or next year be that guy who if they want to move into the next level he might be worthy in the fans eyes of the match and also is early enough in his career that it would greatly benefit him. But I think unless you find that person in that moment who can draw and benefit draw in the match and benefit from

winning, you just let take or retire with the street. I totally agree. I mean, and I mean yeah, I mean you look at you look towards next year, and yeah, I mean there may be any of the guy I mean, any of the guys in the Shield or Bray Wyatt. I mean, those are guys that could see could conceivably be in that

level. And it's it's the fun to talk about those guys. I'm excited to kind of have the conversation aboutin of the year, just to see how much of them and how much of that has panned out, because you know, it's inevitably it's not going to pan out for all of them. I mean, I don't mean it's gonna be entragedy, but you know, it's it's just never it never is a hundred. Nobody bats a thousand when you're picking, when you're picking performers. But yeah, I mean, it's just

it's really hard. It's really hard to see, uh you know what what benefit that would have? And uh, unless it were something crazy like you know, unless that were like part of the contractual negotiations, if you like told Punk he could break the streak if you signed a ten year contract or something like that. You know you but that you know that you that's that's

just totally like, you know, fantasy. So Vince Vince went, Vince and Hunter would allow themselves to be held hostage and have a wrestler, you know, dictate to them doing something bad for business, just to get them to come back at least not somebody upon strawing power, which is not hul Kogan or Steve Austin. Yeah, yeah, Ben Ben diagram, by the way, is a Vin diagram right now? Is something else? You're right? Yeah? Yeah, I looked it up what you're talking because I wasn't

sure, but I looked up overlapping circles. I googled it and sure enough the image is popped up of a ven diagram. That's what I'm talking. Yeah, where where did? Where is that tiny, tiny overlap of somebody worthy for the match, who can benefit from it? And and you know, Danny Bryan this year, maybe Roman reigns next year. But you gotta find that and you're right, it may not even work out, and it could end up being at Albatross where that wrestler is. It's the equivalent of

being the number uh you become. I'm trying to think of first round NBA picks who were busted. Joe Smith, you know, yeah, you end up who's the Russian the Russian center that Detroit picked. He played on Minnesota and Boston. Wait the Russian centers? No, just he just in the last eight he was drafted. Oh Darko, yes, Darko militants. He was on the Wolves and there was a David Kahn pick up and then he

went to Boston and like didn't last your training camp or something. Yeah, you know, like you get that first round pick and it just puts way too much pressure on you, you know, or you just were the wrong choice. And picks for the wrong reason. So you don't want to be that guy, the guy who ended taker streak. But you're an asterisk that you know, Everyone's like, whatever happened to that guy? Oh yeah,

he flamed out? Yeah, totally true. I don't think. I don't think there were any reason this year that it's gonna end this year, unless you know, the only thing is that if Undertaker just decides to retire and just insisting going out in his back, you know, I mean, but I think that likely here, that is really minimal. Yeah, I guess. I guess you could see a scenario where Taker says, for I don't know what reason, but I want I'm done this year, and I don't.

I want the street to end, and I want to hand the streak over to something that can draw money. I want Lesnard to destroy me and the streak and end my career, and that's gonna be the storyline. And if I can come back, which I think is only twenty five percent, I'll have a comeback match against Brock and will draw major money. Or if I can come back, I'm willing to go out on a stretcher because I

think Undertaker should go out that way. Again, I'm not saying Mark thinks this way, but if he did, and then he says, I want you to turn brock inding my streak into a storyline that leads to Brock headlining against John Cena next year, with Brock following to end Sina's career and all the scene of fans will be fearful of it, and then you've got your

storyline. Like, That's the only way that I could see Undertaker losing is if Mark Callaway himself pitched it and pushed it and came up with a scenario that Vincent Hunter liked. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, cool, David, I love this stock. It was great having back on the show. And what a great week to I mean we left at least half the hot topics on the table on explored. So it's been. It's a great It's a great time of year, so I mean it'll be the next

few weeks would be a lot of fun. It will. Well. I appreciate, uh, appreciate your time today and come back to the show. I'll do it, man, I'll talk to you soon. Great, Thanks, Thanks, we'll have you on again if you're will all right, no brah anytime, Cool invite you to email the show with feedback or questions or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at pw torch dot com. That's Wade Keller Podcast at pw torch dot com. Also welcome your feedback on

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