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pw Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Killer Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for this week's Interview Classic where Wade Killer Interview is one of Pro Wrestling's newsmakers. Five years ago this month, John Piermarini joined me. He is a former WWE creative team member of frequent guest on the show, providing a lot of insight into how WWE works behind the scenes, and in this episode,
we focused one hundred percent on women's wrestling in WWE. First, He provided behind the scenes insights on the time he worked for WWE, including working alongside Mickey James, Alicia Fox, The Bellas, Beth Phoenix, Eve Kelly Kelly, Gail Kim, and others. He talks about the attitude towards women's wrestling then and how women felt about how they were utilized. Then we review each match at Evolution, look at the match order, what's next for ron A
Rousei, his take on the booking of Becky Lynch, and more. This is a Wade Caller Pro Wrestling podcast for Saturday, November eleventh, twenty twenty three, and it is our Interview Classic edition from five years ago this month. The show originally dropped on November two, twenty eighteen. Here we go, All right, John, For someone who worked in WWE creative almost ten
years ago, can you believe I'm saying that? How shocked are you, if at all, that we just finished up earlier this week women's only WWE pay per view, not a novelty ww network special, but an actual replacement for what would have been the October regularly scheduled pay per view. I'm not shocked that they did it, but it's not because I felt like that was
the natural progression of the division. I think that when you started seeing the press that Ronda Rousey was getting in USC at the time when she was sort of taking over that company and almost really become in the face of that company at the time, because I think that's when they were losing like GSP and a couple other people, and you could see that ww was starting to want
to piggyback on that. So not surprised at all, knowing that the way that this country at least is moving towards women empowerment and you know, focusing on what they're able to do. Then I honestly it was like you knew they were going to get in on that. So no, no, no surprise, but still happy that they did it. However they can get it done, I'm happy with for them. The culture of WWE, what do
we at eight I guess about eight years ago when you were there. When it comes to women wrestlers and women in general, what describe it like?
I think people have an impression that maybe women were looked at hired based on looks, but on a different criteria than men, and that they were in a largely historically men's business where women were a novelty described kind of the culture both for on air talent and off air talent or off air workers in WWE compared to what you've experienced with where you are now and where you've been before,
just as a WW culture or just in general. Yeah, the culture in WWE eight years ago towards women in predominantly men's business or the man of the stars, the men make the money, the met of the promoters. You know, there's Stephanan and some executives, but like it's the culture towards women in WWE and when you were there different than you found in other corporate
or life environments. Yeah, I think that all just kind of really comes down to who who's creating the culture and what their thoughts are on it. You know, being in Los Angeles and in the television industry pretty much since I was eighteen nineteen years old, I didn't see a lot of the same that I saw in WWE. But that's also because the person or person's running
it thought very differently. And I think that, you know, it's hard to kind of answer that because I don't know how it is now, and I don't know if they are if the culture has changed there in the way that they're treating people or how they see the women, or if it's just something where you know, much like Crown Jewel, it's forget if whatever they may be, forget our values and folks. More on where the money's at. So it's a hard question to answer, but it very very different,
is the only way that I could put it. When I was there, it was like you were saying, it was like higher them on their looks. If they didn't fit into that mold, then it was, you know, like a bully mentality, and I think that they were looked down upon.
I was actually very shocked when it was not too long after I left, because I remember even hitching her to be part of Lake Cool when I was working with them, when they brought in Awesome Kong, and I actually was pretty surprised that they brought her in and did what they did with her because it just was so different than what I would expect Vince or that company to get behind. But yeah, I hope that answers your question somewhat. Yeah, so far as far as Auntio talent goes, there's a premium in
WWWW placed on diversity of body type with men. The idea is, obviously the leading men have a certain consistency to their look over the years, from Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, and Rock a little bit different during a different time, but not that different. John Cena, Roman reigns. You can put some people in between attempts they made with Sid and Batista, but they
still valued on the roster different body types. But you had a whole roster, a large male roster of dozens of men, where there was room for diversity with the women. It was and historically has been to the average viewer much less. Somebody worked behind the scenes. A premium placed on well we have, and they've tried to move away from this and incorporate women into the
demographics. But young male fan base who want eye candy and fantasies and sex appeal for the one or two slots for the women on a TV show compared to the fifteen spots for men on a two R TV show. So part of it was they're just if you're gonna have women on the show, it's unabashedly for looks and sex appeal, and there's not enough spots for quote diversity of body type. And I don't think that's I don't think that's unfair. I'm not even trying to be critical. I'm just trying to be like,
state the obvious. Does that seem sort of fair? Why there wasn't room for a lot of different body types, even if you look back at it and somewhat shamefully and say, hey, they should have worked harder to make room for other body types. Yeah, sure, I mean yes to both. I mean yes, that's the reason, but yes, they should have
worked harder. And I think that, you know, the problem is is that when you have essentially one person making the decisions, and that one person treats it like you know, it's his own personal action figures that he can play with, and those are the ones that he wants to play with, and you know, then you got to tell them, all right, well, look, you can only do this once and you have five minutes. How are you going to use that five minutes? Then that's what he's going
to go for. It's it's you know, look again, it's like we can look back on how it was. Whatever the reason is, it's it's good that somebody was the culture as a whole, was able to change the way that they thought about it, even if it's them being forced to do it and probably going in like you, look, you look at some of
those female wrestlers that are there. Now, I can guarantee you that there's no way that Vince is a fan of them, but you know, maybe he feels like he's just stepped away from it and said, hey, look, if this is what you guys are going to do, it's your thing.
You do it, and you know when you bring up a guy, I'm trying to think of a specific example that was, you know, maybe seen as a big star in NXT or elsewhere, and then when he was in charge of him, it kind of wasn't the same thing, maybe like a Finn Balord or even on the opposite end with like an Elias where he goes, well, that's the kind of guy I want to get behind, where someone like Triple H didn't. I think that he's just kind of stepping
away from it. Is my guests and saying, hey, you know, do what you want and I may not like it, but you seem to be you know, you're in charge of it. You make it work. Let's set the table here, introduce ourselves. I got to follow up on a couple of things you just said too after this. But this is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast Interview Friday for November two, twenty eighteen, and
my guest on today's program is John pier Marini. He is a former WWE creative team member and as he mentioned, still active in Hollywood and Los Angeles and entertainment. He's been a guest on my shows my podcast over the years. Many times we ran a multi hour interview and transcript for VP members.
In our initial interview, which that must have been like twenty eleven or twenty twelve, John kind of reintroduce our newer listeners to to your background at WWE, what you're doing now, and yeah, anything else you want them to know. What I want them to know what I worked at. Yeah, I worked at WW from two thousand and early two thousand and nine to basically the end of twenty ten. Lifelong wrestling fan. Kind of like my dream
was to become a professional wrestler. I never grew into that, and it was much different back then in you know, how you would find a way to get into the business, And I started. I worked at MTV and then found that WW was hiring writers and made my way into into their world with that and stayed there for a couple of years. Found that there. I mean, look, they can just go back and listen to our talks that we've done for the hours that we've put into it and they can learn
all about why I left. But yeah, that's that's that's really it as far as wrestling goes. And what have you been doing since I? When I left WWE, I moved back to LA and have been on America's Got Talent really since then, kind of NonStop. It's usually in television you you work, you know, project to project to project. But I've been lucky enough that this show has been so successful that I've been able to stay on
this NonStop pretty much since that time. I think there was there was a break in which I wasn't doing it before I I there was a break where I was I was not doing much in television, and then came back to
do this show. So it's been I've been fortunate, and it's always fun when we get our reports of when we like our social media report where we're going head to head with I think at the time, no it is still now like with SmackDown, and they compare our numbers to them, So I'm sure WWC is that as well, and they're probably it's probably a subject of conversation there now. Are you still creating characters, writing storylines and helping decide
on outcomes? Definitely not deciding the outcomes now, but definitely it's been fun to have a creative hand in, you know, meeting some very talented people and helping them established. I mean, if you've seen the show, you see it's it's kind of very similar to w W, where we establish who they are as a person, sometimes as a character, get you to want to root for them and then or not, and then see them perform and
then it's up to you to decide if they move forward or not. It's a lot like how WW claims that they decide who gets a push, but we're actually doing it. Yeah, no, that's I thought I was almost getting a big scoop player, but I almost tricked you into it. No, yeah, no, no, no, it's one legit. Yes, yes, that's what promoters said for decades to John, Someday you're gonna no never mind, No, no, there's definitely nothing to say there, I promise, No, I don't you you've heard me on your show before.
If there is something to say, i'd say it. Yes, definitely. Thanks, So let's to our podcast. Did you know? We also have a website, pw toorch dot com daily news updates, editorials, and my live TV coverage covering Raw, Dynamite and SmackDown, and my live pay per view coverage for WWE and AEW. Create a tab or bookmark make it a daily stop. Visit us throughout the day every day to keep up on breaking news and more. That's pw torch dot com talk about the women's division and
how different it was then versus now in the evolution era. The culture of WWE at the time, and you know, it's it's sort of eye candy, it's what Vince wants. How we're did it seem even just back then, which isn't that long ago unless you're twelve, then it seems like forever
ago, but it's not that long ago. We're we're Was it just open objectification of women on almost an official level, not having drinks afterwards, but like, uh, you know, the promoters or executives, like when a woman would go out to the ring or walk by and her her ring outfit, Like was it just sort of like the culture was from on air all the way to behind the scenes objectifying or was there a level of hey, we know why we're here, but we're growing ups and there are and everybody
here are equal professionals. M I mean, I guess it depends where those conversations were happening. I know in the creative room that you know, I remember having conversations. I think he's still there, right, Ryan Ward, I believe he worked on NXT and yeah, he was the raw what was it like the assistant for raws me Brian Gowurtz, Dave Kapoor and Ryan writing Raw And you know we used to have conversations all the time. We were
big MMA fans. And I remember Gina Carano was doing something for I can't remember if it was Strike Force was the organization, but they had she was the headline act against maybe cyborg in and again I'm totally trying to remember this right now, like San Jose and they sold out the arena and they were the main event, And I remember having a conversation with Ryan and being like, I just I mean, it just proves that if the right person is
there, and if the right story is there, and if you get interest, there's no reason why we can't have our women doing the same thing. And you know a lot of people agreed with that, but you know, it's it's with anything when you hit that certain part of the road where a decision has to be made and there is someone that can that can stop that, then that's kind of where it ended. I honestly, I don't if there was. I don't recall any specific comments made about objectifying women, so
I can't really I can't really speak on that per se. But the the philosophy and the culture definitely was that it was about sex appeal. But I don't think that anybody really hid that. I don't think Vinci Mann was ever hiding that at the time, but also that it was a time when you could say that and it's not like too many people were gonna get on you for it, not saying it was right, But I don't think it was hidden that that's the way he saw the women. Yeah. Yeah, so
that Vince McMahon back then versus what's happening now. Does this seem like with Evolution on Sunday and what's going on with Ron Rolsey, that it's purely economic, Hey there's an opportunity here, or is there some semblance of hey, we're a maturing corporation and okay, yeah, I mean, I'm not there to tell you if that's the case, but I think sometimes you just have to look at the writing on the wall, and you have to look at
the timing. I mean, it's they want to say that, you know, whatever the promo was at Stephanie Cutt, it's all about timing, or it's about kicking down doors in this that It's like WW did none of that. This was all happening outside of their world and then they saw a way to capitalize on it. It's it's how they do all of their business. So for them to take any credit for it is them lying to themselves.
And maybe they do feel like they should get credit for it, and maybe because they're the ones that are out there trying as hard as they can to to be you know, out there and pushing that like they do with everything else that, you know, charity and all that. It's there's there's probably people that do a lot more for some of the things that they're involved with, but they are not pushing it. But WW will get credit for it because they're the ones every week that are saying, hey, look what we're
doing. And so I think that, yeah, I mean it's it's all because of they They saw an opportunity and they're capitalizing on it. I don't think there was ever a conversation. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that someone like Stephanie or maybe even Triple H. It's no different than when we were there and some of us were pushing for the women there. You just had to get that right person there to do it. But you know, I think that even if Stephanie was a big proponent for it all this time,
or Triple H was, they weren't. They weren't. They were giving up the fight against Vince. And I think at some point Vince saw it as, hey, look at all these things happening. I'm sure he had no idea who Ronda Rousey even was at the time she was doing all that, and I think that he finally saw that as a way too, and maybe it was the way they convinced him, but a way for us to make money, and he finally said, okay, let's go with it.
And and to be honest, it was sort of slow. It's not like they just went all in and said, hey, we're we're giving them, you know, a pay per view and we're going to have them headline. I mean, it was all very very slow. It was like they definitely
tested it before they went all in on it. So let's go to your time there with some of the women who were around and being featured on television at that time, and if there's any anecdotes about storylines and how they were presented or how you remember them being framed behind the scenes, and what the goal was because we had the Bellas Kelly, Kelly, Maurice was active back then, Beth Phoenix, Jillian Hall, who else comes to mind as kind
of the priorities for Vincient Man at that time, about eight or so years ago. Gosh, I don't really think there was a priority as far as a female wrestler. I think it was just, you know, whoever had the title had a very small storyline, and I do remember working a lot with the girls and pushing to not just have them go out there and have a match, but you know, build a little bit of a story there was. There wasn't like a long leash on what we were given. I
do remember working with like Maurice, I can't remember. I think Eve was the Divas Champion at the time, and we got to do like a little storyline with them. I remember, let's see who else was there. I'm trying to remember who the Champions were. When I started working that with them, it was like Eve Maurice. I remember then we started doing the thing with Daniel Brian and the Bella Twins, and then Michelle McCool and Layla were
on SmackDown. But I started to work with them quite a bit and then started to write there their storylines, and then that became I wouldn't necessarily call it like a priority, but it was definitely like the infamous you know, Vincric Mann lines is like, you know, what is John Cena doing this show? And it got to you know, what what are they doing? Because I think he was highly entertained by those girls. So I wouldn't call them a priority, but I would say that that was someone that he did.
It's tough because I want to say focus on but he kind of let us just do what we wanted to do. And you know, I don't know if it was because he liked what we were doing or if it was because he felt like, you know, that's Undertaker's wife and you know, I want to make him happy. But that was never said or implied. Like I was never pulled aside by Vincric Mann and saying like, hey,
that's Undertaker's wife, so we've got to do stuff. But I mean, like a similar thing happened with working with Miz, where we used to have to go in and get promos approved, and one day we walked in he said, I trust him, So let's you don't have to come to me with miss promos anymore. So it's tough because like I don't I feel like sometimes I can't answer your question because there isn't an answer. But it's it. That's the closest thing I can think of to you know, being a
priority or or kind of giving them the time. I think again, slowly, it was you would. It was almost like he gave like it was a handout to you. You know, it's like, hey, well we want Maurice came to me and she had this idea for you know, doing something backstage with Eve, and it's like it's like, yeah, okay, go ahead do it. It's not like we were able to do it every
single week and build to this like epic storyline between them. It's like you take what you can get, you make the most out of it in those like two minutes, and then you hope that it's enough to draw interest. But a lot of times it was like we had to work the girls into, like working Maurice into the Ted Dbass storyline. There was someone else. I can't remember, it's so far. I mean, if I had a roster in front of me from that time, I could probably be better at
it. But you know, it was like you had to find you found ways for them to get in. But it wasn't always the way that you're seeing it now, where it's just like, hey, they're great, let's put them in the ring, give them ten minutes and they'll be happier. Let's create a compelling storyline to build too, you know Ronda in Nikki Bella in six weeks. Yeah, there's a thing where it's like we always had.
I'm sure you've heard other writers talk about it. We had like grids where you would lay out you'd have a storyline that you would build to each pay per view, and it was done on a grid, so you'd have like four sections for the four weeks to get to that pay per view. While some of us were writing our own for people that would it would never
actually be seen by Vincricman. Like there was never like the Vincric Man saying like I need you guys to or Brian gowert saying like I need you to work on a grid for Eve Torres Like no, that didn't happen, or Kelly, Kelly, but you know, it doesn't mean that there weren't people there trying to make something like that for them and the girls too. The girls were very like the girls were very creative. They had a lot of great ideas. It's just a lot of times the time wasn't dedicated to them.
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a week look at this page in NXT's early history. Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from p WT Talks NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they did
or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch VIP members. Did you sense the women at that point were resigned to what their role was or fighting for more or motivated to push for more and take little steps forward? Like what was kind of the demeanor in the attitude I think it's I think it's the same with men. It's like there's certain people who pushed, and then there certain people who accepted, and then there were certain people who like were ridiculous with
some of the things that they weren't on TV. So then they'd pitch a story, but the story would be like them going over triple H or something, and it's like you got to be realistic. I think it was the same with the girls. You had the girls that were fighting. Those people were like Maurice, Eve, Michelle, Layla, Natalia, Beth Phoenix.
They fought, you know, so like when you see them on there, like on Evolution and Beth talking about how much that means to her, like, yeah, she fought for that, Like I can see why that means so much to her. There were girls that never said anything to you, and it was just they're not on the show, and they're just not on the show, and you see them in catering and they're just they've accepted that that's what it is. But yeah, it's there. There was There was
a lot of everything. I wouldn't necessarily say, and I don't know what happened inside the girl's locker room, but it wasn't like all of them banded together to say we're gonna make this work and we're fighting for this. There were the girls that fought for and the ones that did. To the extent that they were able to what they were able to be given, they did fight and earn those spots. There was some comments on Evolution about men being
advocates for this also. I can't remember if it was Beth Phoenix who said it on commentary or or who, but the idea that hey, there were men fighting for this too. I know if that Finley's name was brought up and others, what can you pinpoint instances were men who had some powersome influence at least a voice also advocated for more with the women. It depends on if they had an idea. I don't remember anyone ever like standing up and
going, we need to give these women more. You know, if someone Brian or another writer or myself or anyone had an agent even too, like yeah, like fit he worked with the girls, so you know there were times where he'd go like, man, you know, these these girls can
go. Let's give them. Let's give them ten minutes, Let's give them fifteen minutes, and or you know, Brian having an idea or a writer having ideas speaking up and going like, hey, I think this would be you know, great for them, like exhaustedly we there were people there that pitched good stories for those girls that were ignored. So yeah, I mean it's individually, Yes, I don't think that I ever heard anyone knock on
Vince's door, walk in and go we're not doing this right. You know, we need to we need to give them more and we need to focus more on them. It might have happened, but I don't think it was done on that large of a scale. I think it was just more like, hey, these girls were tearing it up at the house show, like let's give them fifteen minutes on Monday night. Raw. Gail Kim was around
when you were there. Is she somebody who didn't fit Vince's or Kevin Dunn or Michael Hay whoever, you know, like the Maurice Kelly Kelly type. Did you, if you have any memory of it, did you sense that here's Gail came coming in with a claim from TNA. Her matches with Awesome Calm were heralded and deservedly so, and then she came in and people were shocked that Vince didn't quite seem to get behind her and market her in the
way that TNA sixty at on their platform, which was smaller. I think I remember the way I remember it is that there was already she was there prior to she she was there and then went to TNA and then came back right and then she came back when I was there. Is that the right timetable? I actually don't remember what I think, So, yeah, I
know she did go back to TNA. If I'm wrong, I apologize, But this is the way I remember it in my head now, is that I already remembered going into WW that they that Vince had soured on her in her first run there, and I remember it being something about they didn't, uh, he didn't like the character, the vignettes or something. And then, like I think you've heard so many times from people that like that,
you can lose him. It could be the smallest thing, the way someone looks at him, the way you know, someone throws a punch, And in her case, it could have just been those vignettes and that's it. I'm done. I'm sour on that person. So when she came back. I don't think I have really expected him to be fully behind her. But also what she brought to the table wasn't something that Vince was looking for in
a female at the time. I'm not saying she wasn't attractive. She was extremely attractive, and I'm not even saying she wasn't as attractive as the other girls there. I'm just saying that what she what I think that the fans were really into, and like even what you brought up was that the matches she had with Awesome Kong and how good she was in the ring. I don't think that was of value to Vince. So I don't think that he saw her and said, man, I got to put her on TV and
have these great matches. I think it would have worked better if she was there now. Oh yeah, can you imagine if instead of in I think she first went there in the mid two thousands and then yeah, she had to break and then she came back for quite a while, but never kind of was that centerpiece. But people don't look back at her and say,
well, she was a trailblazer in WWE. But I think people look at Kim and Kong and what they did in TNA and say that infancy people's eyes to how a crowd can act, how a feud with the women can seem like a comain event and not a side show or a warm up or just
there for sex appeal and her. But also I think the frustration that people felt with what she could have been and what she wasn't might have ignited some frustration that led to action being taken that manifested years later in things going being better, because it was such a shame that Gail Kim could have meant so much more if the attitude towards her wasn't, like you said, Vince McMahon looks at her and then sees him and yet and boom, I'm done.
I got to move on other things. Yeah, it's unfortunate, but you know, I guess it's kind of like you hear, you know, like whether it was the guys the Trailblazers of USC or any the wrestlers even like before the attitude or it's like man if I was just around now, But I mean, it's just it's the way that it is. I think the good thing is that maybe she didn't make the money that she could have made,
but she's looked at fondly by arrest Link community. That you know, sometimes depending on what's important to you down the line will mean more than you know, cashing a big check, but also you have to survive, so that might ultimately be more important to these people than some. We invite you to email the show with feedback or questions or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at ptwtorch dot com. That's Wade Keller Podcast at PW torch
dot com. Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. You can follow us on Twitter at PW Torch and follow me at the Wade Keller. That's at PW Torch and at the Wade Keller. Let's you mentioned something earlier about Vince McMahon looking at the Evolution lineup now in the women's roster, and there's some women there who you'd he'd even be surprised eight, nine, ten years ago that
they were featured today, Like, elaborate on that. Who do you think of some of the current women are that he if it were completely his decision and his inclination, probably wouldn't be in the spot that they're in. So I mean, just in looking at the roster, I mean, even like if you had, if you had Ronda Rousei come into WW with zero background,
that's someone that definitely he would not get behind. I think I'm actually surprised, you know that he didn't see a lot more in Becky Lynch prior to her sort of forcing her way, and especially with this new character really showing what she has Shana Basler. But I know he's not necessarily involved with with her. Let me see, can you? I guess you can't make this just the females. What's her name, Ruby Riot? That's definitely one that I definitely, I mean, Osca is still fighting that, I think
right now. I don't know if it's if it's her look he doesn't get the English, but that's one I mean, I mean, I can almost I'm just looking at him, and I can give you an argument for all of them. Bailey. I think someone like like a Billy Kay as someone that he's probably would be very, very into. But that also leads me to believe that he's sort of not his hands on with that division as other
people might. Bella as I always know that he's liked and wanted to find things for Charlotte fits that mold let me just try to find ones that would
be different ember Moon. But again, I think as I'm saying some of these, I do see some of the influence of him kind of you know, maybe them going all right, so we're going to bring in ember Moon and we'll have her work this with, you know, Ronda, and you just kind of hear that, you know, and then Okay, well, I mean we want to get what we want to be able to have the proper time for them, or be able to give them a storyliner multiple segments,
and so maybe they pull back knowing that he's not super into someone, so then they put in the people. Because if I remember correctly, I remember when they brought in and kind of said like, hey, we're going to push this, and it was like the Four horse Women came up and it was those four girls, and it was about like the work rate.
And then slowly I think that like you started to work in some of that like Vince McMahon influence, you know, And I think now you're balancing that as far as when it comes to what's presented on Raw and SmackDown, And I think evolution was a different story, but for Raw and SmackDown, I think you're seeing a little bit of both. I think you're seeing I'm going to give you what you want, you know, bring to me the storylines
or whatever it is that you want to bring to me. But I think he still has an influence on who's getting that push now that I look at some of the names that are and aren't. But like Amandy Rose, I mean she would be. She would have been a superstar when I was there, and there's no reason to believe that she can't. Now. I'm not taking anything away from her. I just think that she's definitely not on the level with in ring style as some of these other girls that are above her.
But Anaya Jacks even, I mean I think Anaya Jacks could be. You hear sometimes when you when you what was it? It was that girl Tony Storm, I think, and everyone was after her match she's a star, and I mean, hey, maybe she could be. I don't think you look at that person you immediately go superstar. I can see why WWE is saying that, but I think I look at like a Naya Jacks and I say superstar because I think that if WWE were pushing female empowerment and you
know, don't be a bully. I mean, there's so much you could do with her. Number One, she's a beautiful person, but there was no reason that she shouldn't have been the champion and going on Good Morning America and all of these shows, being an advocate for some of the things that she had gone through and to say, hey, look if you go through that, look at me. I made it. Ignore those people. I know they kind of did it with like her promos and all that, but
that's something that's forgotten. A minute later, I look at her and I think she is a star. I think Natalia has probably been fighting what we're talking about since before I was there. I feel like we can go through everyone, but it would take not one minutes. Yeah, no, no, it's fat, it's it's it is I think part of as you kind of run down those names and the different things that they could do with them and what they are doing with them, but were the potential list for other
things. It does illustrate that having a full women's division, not six or eight, but a full division of women, that there is room for diversity
now and there's so many different stories that can be told. You know, Nya Jacks and they are telling the stories, you know, Rona RAUSEI the what the story that they're telling with Becky Lynch, even if it seems like they're going up against a headwind trying to try really hard to get you know, with the machinery to get fans to boo Becky and the fans keep cheering or they're there. That's a fully invested storyline. So they are doing a
lot of storylines with different women. They did a lot with Sasha and Bailey for a while and on and on. You do you kind of look at what's happening now and the diversity of personalities, body types, looks, talent, experience everything and kind of think that would have been fun to write for Absolutely, yeah, I mean I think that just seeing the talent. I mean, look, in the end, this is sort of like a tired statement. But in the end, you have to build to a wrestling match,
So you look at what to use women. That's not that that should be the sense of like yeah, right, but it's tired and that that's sort of what like everyone goes to. It's like, look, in the end, you've got to get to a wrestling match. I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said a million times, but you look at what these women can provide in that payoff, and you could write so many good things. I mean, you know, some of the things that bug me a little
bit is like when you watch Tony Storm, like those facial expressions. I mean, maybe I'm in the minority, but it takes away from what I'm watching because it does look like someone is overdoing it or overacting, and it's like, just pull that back a little bit. But she has she had a great match. I haven't seen too many of hers, but that one was great. But yeah, I just think and also too, like the diversity of what they have on the roster makes for telling good stories. You
know. It's like you shouldn't have all the same thing because you can't create different personalities out of the same person, the same guy, the same girl. So God, it's like, there's so much you could do with these with these women, I think it would be great. I think the one thing that they're missing on Ronda, to kind of just give an example, is you know, I know it's I know it's different in ww and with with wrestling, but it's like, to me, what made her and what
you know you can use Brock both in WW and UFC. You can use Chuck Liddell in UFC WWE with you know, for a while braun Stroman, it was you tuned in to see what they were going to do because they were doing something different, whether that's for you for Ronda Rousey and UFC, they tuned in because they wanted to see her knock someone out and how quick it would be, or not so much for her knocking someone out but winning a match, or is this finally the girl that's going to be here.
For braunz Stroman, it was like that was the guy, who what is he going to do this week? Same with stone Cold. You know, I don't think too many people tuned in to see how great of a match he was going to have, but it was what is he going to do?
Brock Lesner and WW, I think they're missing that with her where it's like the appeal for her is that she should be coming in and not so much being so much better than some of their top women, but I think she should be running through some of these people and and and bring in some of that appeal that she had in UFC, and then when you finally have someone who can hold their own. You're building other people now, I mean
if you would have had Nicki have that match with her. But prior to that, Ronda was, you know, running through some of these other girls that you could easily tell the story I'm looking here and Sonya Deville isn't on her level yet, so she gets smashed, you know, But then you show your you're building Nicki at that point because Nicki held her own and did well against her, and now you have a possible contender. When when Ronda
does get beat I think it means a lot more. It's going to mean a lot anyways, but I think it could mean a lot more if she was someone that you tuned in to see. Either is she going to run through this person and you're excited if she does. If she doesn't, you're going, wow, Okay, you know Nicki Bella is better than I thought, or a contender and you get a little bit more invested in her,
or you ever lose and you've made someone. I think otherwise you're tuning in to see her while she's been great and doing a lot of things different than the other girls, like you're trying to say, hey, she came from this other world she's a celebrity, but she's doing everything everyone else is doing in the ring. So I think that's one small thing. The other thing you brought up to, and I'm probably going off the question you said,
is that they're trying to steer people away from doing Becky Lynch. If fans are complaining about what they're doing with her, I think that's a huge mistake because she is turning into a superstar right now, and I think that you needed to have the heel turn to get what you're getting out of her.
To me, I always thought she was great and I enjoyed watching her, but she wasn't providing much outside of like good matches for me as a fan prior to this happening, and now it's like you want to tune in to hear what she's going to say. What I think the problem is isn't that she's a heel and that Charlotte's the babyface. I think the problem is that
WW looks stupid in not addressing that. I mean, why not just say, as commentators, hey, there are people who agree with her, you know, and there are people who agree with Charlotte, and just leave it at that and just let it play out and not have to say, you know, if she does something that turns her into a heel, it's like, God, I can't believe she has gone to that point now where she wasn't that before. She doesn't need to do that as a but it's it's
it's it's just a very weird thing. But I don't know. I wouldn't be one of the people that are going like, I'm going to fight that she's a heel and you need to turn her into a babyface and change Charlotte like how people kind of have done with Roman. It's like, just let it be because she's doing so great. Why do you need why do you need anything to change it? Boo her or cheer her? Just we need WW to acknowledge that it's happening instead of ignoring it. A Are you a
nostalgic wrestling fan? Do you want to hear about shows you haven't seen in ten, twenty, maybe even thirty years. Well, I have the show for you. I'm pwtortch dot com contributor Frank petty Ani, and since December of twenty twenty, I've hosted Pro Wrestling Then and Now together with a rotating chair of co hosts, We go back and review old shows from top to bottom, talk about where the wrestlers were at the time and compare what's taking
place now to what took place. Then you can hear this so along with other shows as part of your PW Torts VIP membership with exclusive podcasts just for members compatible with the Apple Podcasts app. Visit pwtorch dot com slash go vip for details and sign up form. Yeah. I think with Becky's fascinated because I mean she's showing a different tide of personality and in this fire and this attitude and this edge that was I think she had in a different way before
that. I think WWE creative and so man looked at as same old Becky. She's quirky and fans like her, but she's more in Italia than she is Charlotte Ronda. And now she's been given the freedom to emote and show her range. The problem is, and there's no question she seems like a bigger star now. I think the argument. Counter to the argument is had they just pushed her as a star and featured her in let her let loose, but not had the machinery and the narrative frame her as a heel,
which Renee Young. The baby face commentator talks negatively about Ronda. Michael Cole baby face commentator generally advocates her faces, says negative things about Becky. They book her to grab her title belt and try to run from the match and not stay to fight. So you have these things that go completely against how fans feel about her. And now you have another instance where the fans feel
like they're at war with the booking vision. And they had that with Sina, they had that with Roman, they had it with Daniel Bryan, and now they're in punked to a degree and they're seeing it now with Becky. And I think the Becky Becky is taflon like, she's just so good, she's gonna be fine. The question is are you damaging if you're wwe are you damaging that bond with fans who feel like, once again it's what they care about more than what we're expressing, and they're fighting it, and it
does make the commentators look bad. And a side of a collateral damages Charlotte or any baby Face who faces Becky. There's some collateral damage because fans who like Charlotte up until the Becky feud are now booing Charlotte because there's an incongruency between what the machinery is saying and booking Becky to do versus how fans feel about her. That's what's I agree, Becky's a star and she's gonna come out of this just fine, But what about the damage done along the periphery?
Well, I think you know you are right. You know she had this in her, whether she's a babyface or a heel, but the way that she was booked both in now but also I think you know, in working with talent both inside ww and out, it's sometimes using heel and babyface is that you could be great at both, but sometimes you're missing on that little something that takes you over the edge to be where it be a superstar and be like, yeah, you know she's good, she cuts good promos
and I enjoy her work, to then going like, oh my god, she's taken that next step. I think for Becky maybe she need and maybe she knew it, maybe she didn't, but she needed to be this character for at least the way I look at it is that she's a much better character now and she's a bigger star now, And I get what you're saying about the collateral damage for others, but that's also to me, it's not so much about that she's a heel. I think that it's just saying,
look, if you agree with her, you agree with her. If you don't, you don't, and leave it at that. Let the audience decide. And instead of I'm even okay if she wants to grab her title and run, I mean if she sometimes you could you could play that up as psychological. Sometimes you know, she can just say I was put in this situation and you know this person doesn't deserve it, and they're kind of getting one up on me. I'm walking out. I don't need to be here.
Like that plays into it without you know, necessarily having to say she's a cowardly heel. Now, I just think let her be if you if you want to cheer her, go for it. We're not going to tell you as commentators, we're not going to lead you one way or the other. And then that way when she goes up against a babyface like you know Bailey, it's not gonna hurt Bailey because they feel like, no, okay, we're going to get behind our girl, get behind whoever you want.
I mean, I don't know why WW hasn't seen too. I don't know if like in their office, Vince is going. I can't seem to get this right. I think that Charlotte should be the babyface or Roman should be the babyface, and he should be the star. I don't it's if that's the case, like still have a babyface and have a heel, But it's okay to let the audience pick what they want. And I think that it's a culture now in WWE where that's just going to happen. I don't think
you could. Their booking is never going to solve the problem. So book how you want a book, and then let the audience determine who they're going to get behind, and I think that you're going to see. I just, I honestly just don't get The only thing that I kind of keep up on is like the news sites, and sometimes I see that, you know, fans are complaining that she shouldn't be the heel. I just in watching what I've seen from her, can't seem to fathom why anyone should say she
shouldn't be doing what she's doing right now. Thanks for downloading Today's show. Take it to the next level with a VIP membership, get shows like this the Way Keller Prossing Podcast, Weaightkeller Prosing post show, and the pw Torch daily casts on our pw Torch VIP podcast feed with ads and plugs removed from the shows for a streamlined listening experience. And also hear the VIP exclusive shows that I host with Rich Fan and Todd Martin, Everything with Rich Fan and
The Fix with Todd Martin's signature VIP series. That you're missing out without a VIP membership, So go VIP here in twenty twenty two and enjoy all the benefits, all the bonus content and the ad free listening experience. Pw torch dot com slash go VIP. Let's talk about Ronda Roussi and what you're seeing
with her and how WWE is pushing and framing and presenting this. She might be the top paid star on the roster right now across the entire board on per match basis brock us higher, but overall right now, among full time talent, Ronda is probably the highest. What do you think about how they
are now that Roman's gone too? How do you feel that, how do you feel about what you're seeing with Ron and how she's adapting from the UFC personality and what you maybe saw in her as a potential pro wrestler or how she's presenting herself in WWE as at this point. I think when you're a wrestling fan and you kind of always get it, you know, and I think it's easier to sort of become that character and play that character when when you're a fan, and I think that she kind of always was trying to
be a little WWE in UFC, So I think she's transitioned well. I mean she's kind of growing at a rapid rate. I mean even just with the first promo that she cut, I can't remember when that was. Didn't they do like a pay per view where they had her come out and do a signing or something and that promo was god awful. And then to seeing her cut the promo on Nikki Bella, and like, I mean, it's happening so quick, like she will end up being great at everything. I
think. I think that her entering work is growing fast. I think she's going to be great there. I think that she's going to be a great talker, I think that there's no reason why they can't just say, hey, if it happens, she could be the face of the company. I know that's going to be something that they probably are going to be hesitant to
do because she's a woman. But I also think that WWE follows the headlines, and I think that if she ends up being the one that people are talking about or getting behind, and I'm not talking about fans, I'm talking about she pulls the headlines in media, then I think that they'll they'll go that route. But I also think part Events is never really gonna fully I think he'll always put if she becomes that, I think he'll put her on
the shows. But I think he'll always say what was it that. I don't know if it was you that said it, or if like listening to Bruce Pritchard, but it's like you sprinkle that Hogan dust. And I feel like with her, if she becomes that, they're going to put her on the shows, and then they're always going to attach a male superstar to her. At the time, it could have been Roman Reigns, but hey, we're going to have Ronda ROWSI on Good Morning America. Okay, Well,
joining us is Ronda Rausi and the ww champion Roman Reigns. I think that Vince will always want to do that. I don't think she'll ever stand alone as the face. But I also think that she's going to lose the appeal of the non wrestling fans if they continue to just book her as another wrestler on the roster, which goes back to that point that I was making earlier. I think you need to keep her in that have the people kind of
tune in because she's doing something different and you're entertained by that. If she just becomes another wrestler on the roster, I think you're just gonna eventually just have your wrestling fans tuning in to watch her. What did you think of Nikki Bella and Breen her corner as opponents for rond and how they made that turn into Did it feel to you like a worthy main event match on the
first ever all women WWB pay per view? Hmm? Well after the match that came on before it no, but no to be look, I feel like if I say no, it's taking away from both of them, and I don't want to do that. I think it was it was good for what it was. I don't think it was. I mean, look, when you're gonna do a pay per view like that, I feel like this is it's almost like ECW's first pay per view. You had a lot to
prove. And I guess I won't kind of sidetrack this conversation, but what I was going to do is say, like, what did you think of it at the time? But I would have rather seen it, you know, if you're going to show an the Charlotte Becky match should have went on last. I think that at that point you're kind of saying, look where
we've come. Not because there was tables getting broken or chairs being stacked on someone, but how great that match was the story that you told to get there, And I think it kind of shows a difference in what we used to do to where we are now. And I think that the Nicky Ronda match was good, and I think that Ronda was really good in it. I think that Nicki was able to take people that would have gone she has no chance, this is not a great matchup or worthy of a Ronda opponent
and change their minds a little bit. But I don't think that that was like here we are we've made it. And then I also think they should have ended that show with some sort of storyline as well to kind of anyone who might tune in just out of curiosity, just to kind of say like, hey, what is this to give them something to instead of showing more of like a conclusion at the end, like here we are, we did it. Let's pat ourselves on the back. I'm not talking about the women,
I'm talking about WWE. They should have ran a cool angle with Naya Jacks to and the show with her coming out and attacking Ron that or doing something. I think that would have been cool. But as far as that match, don't want to take anything away from it. I don't think that that was a main event Changing of the Guard evolution. This is where you
know women's wrestling is today. I think the match before it was more that And look, Wade, I think no one will argue that the reason that that was the main event is because of the name that was attached to that match. I don't think anyone would say that match deserved to be a main event. That match stands for where we are right now with women's wrestling, other than we've brought in a celebrity to be part of it. Are you surprised at the Bellas are where they are? How were they perceived when you
were there? How did you perceive them? And how do you feel about the fact that here Nicky is headlining. You know, she's John Cena's ex, Brie as Daniel Bryan's wife. They are stars of a reality show where that has been a storyline that they push forward. They're very well known because of that, in addition to other things. What are are you surprised or how do you feel about where Nicki and Brie are at this point? Vince
was always intrigued by them. When I was there, they weren't doing much, and I remember I would sit with them and we try to come up with stuff because Vince would always say like, hey, there's something with them, you know, let's do something with them. And I don't know if I mean, look, when you're that behind someone, you know, it shouldn't take an earth shattering idea to finally say, cool, let's do something with it. But you know we did. Finally we were able to get
the Daniel Brian Bella twins story. Not to say again that that was progressing women's wrestling but you know, he did always see something and I think also too. You bring up a good point because I don't necessarily I don't watch the show, so I never think of like the Bella Twins as like reality TV stars. But that was probably the main reason why she was put in
that match. And again I haven't followed the show, so if I'm missing something and she was tearing the house down every night prior to that, so they gave her that opportunity, then I stand corrected. But I think it was Vince and WWE, because no matter who's pushing for what they're they're always looking at how are we being presented? And I think that was their way of going, Hey, casual fans, they're going to see this as we
have Ronda Rousey the celebrity versus Nicky Bella the celebrity. Look how big we are and then this is big match. I think that's the way that they were looking at it, and I think that wrestling fans were looking at it from a different way. So not surprised she was in the match. Again, not taking anything away from her. I love those girls. I think that they're great. I think they're talented, but I don't think that they were put in that match because that was the two best wrestlers to have in
it. Ronda perhaps, yes, but no not. I don't think the Bela Twins and anyone was writing into WWE or tweeting them, going win, are we getting that match? I think they do for other females. I think that they clont when that was first rumored to be the match. I think people rolled their eyes and groaned and felt like, well, this is
an evolution. I mean, you know when you're thinking, I mean, Nikki's better than Breeing the ring widely regarded as such, and I think fairly so, but it came across as this is, you know, WW style booking the reality star who's gotten in with certain people and have been around a long time against Ronda, and you know they probably user influence. All that is so, But I think they actually won most people over with the match
quality. Now, like you said, in contrast to the match before it, it was a hard act to follow, no question, but I don't think people looked at that. In fact, I'm sure I don't remember. I can't recall anybody saying after Revolution on Sunday, well boy, that that flopped. We were proven right, or people who were critical this match proven
right. I think it passed. And I think for oh, especially if it turns out to be kind of a one off and now run and moves on to other things, given the history of the Bellas and given their their wrecking, the recognition that they have with a wide base of fans over a long span of time, newer fans or reality TV and w B going all
the way back then to you know, ten years ago. I think in retrospect it turned out good in part because I think the writing was good, Ron and Nikki and Brie were really really good in their segments on TV, and the match turned out good too. Like I think that turned out to
be a very fitting end and appropriate made event. Now, could they have put all their effort and resources into OSCA undefeated against Ronda and had their eye on this nine months ago and made that feel relatively similar in terms of yeah, that that belonged on that show and that was a kick ass made event. Sure, Yeah, I think they probably could have. It would have
been very different. But but I give credit to Nikki for stepping up in Ronda for improving as quickly as she has, like you said, and so it was good. Yeah, but you're you're saying that you're looking at it. I think from you know, a you're not looking at it from the ww lens of going like, could they have built Osca to Ronda in WWE's maybe Triple H, I don't know, but in Vince McMahon and his vision and maybe even Triple H now because he's whether he agrees with it or not,
feels like she's Oscar's been watered down. But you're looking at it in a way of like, man, those are the two best, and they could have built this, and WWE's looking at it is like, what is the biggest we can do that has nothing to do necessarily with ring work? You know, It's like they're looking at it's like, let's put our two
biggest stars outside the company in the main event. So I don't think that them ever going, even if we were going to do Evolution in nine months, that they ever even considered the fact of like, well do we keep Oscar undefeated to do that? It's like that's telling a wrestling storyline as opposed to them trying to grab eyeballs and say look at r two. In a sense, Top women right now because if you're tuning into this pay per view and you don't watch, you are thinking those are your two top women,
and you're going wow, and they're two stars. Yeah, no, no output. Every Sunday night, catch Wrestling Night in America on PW Torchdailycast dot Com, hosted by me PW Torch calumnist Greg Parks. Each week, I'll welcome a co host from the Torch family to discuss the big shows and pro wrestling, taking your calls and emails. You can listen live most week's beginning at eight pm Eastern. On Sunday nights with a WWE or Impact pay per view, we go on the air. At the conclusion of that pay per
view. You can listen live, but of course, the full show is available for download on demand anytime shortly after it airs. Visit PW Torchdailycast dot com and click the live stream link to find the next scheduled live show link. Search PW Torch and Apple Podcasts or your podcast app to subscribe Wrestling Night in America every Sunday, PW Torchdailycast dot Com. Charlotte and Becky, you
mentioned that that's a hard act to follow. That was just I mean you want an evolution to have a real standout match that got lots of time, that went almost a half hour am a woman's match on a WWE pay per view, regardless of the context, or on TV going a half hour that in and of itself is like headline material based on past eras. And then they just delivered. You know, they had Yes, the fan you know, a lot of fans were behind Becky and the machinery. The narrative was
trying to push fans the other direction. That's the only like asterisk in terms of anything on this, and it actually maybe fueled a lot of enthusiasm for Becky that added heat to the match. Your thoughts on what you saw there in terms of the presentation and the execution, Yeah, I mean it was
great. I just I love I like I like when it's more than just you know, I love good wrestling, but I love that when you can when you can add other elements, you know, And I feel like sometimes there's no reason why their match couldn't have been like a scene in a movie. You know, it's like, well, it's last man standing. Whether you like that stipulation or not, those are the types of things that you should probably be doing. And I think that it showed that they are capable
of doing those types of things. I think it's good to have things like that every now and then. And man, I mean it is just it
was so good. And to be honest, like what was great about it was that the fans got behind Becky, right, And it's almost like in a sense, I don't think WW meant to do this, but it worked out well where it was like they took you on a journey where you're going, oh god, they're going to like turn Charlotte into superwoman here and she she breaks away from the stack of chairs on her and then you think, Okay, they're definitely going to shove her down our throat now and they're going
to have her win and we don't like this and we are ready for it, and then and then they give you what you want at the end. I thought it was great. I thought that it's that to me, showcased where women's wrestling is for some of the reasons you said, and for some of the reasons I said, and which is why I think that should have
went on last. And I think that is you, you being able to tell the proper story of we are a revolution or an evolution or whatever tagline you put onto it, But that showed where women's wrestling is capable of being today. Absolutely so right now? Is there anything you look at with Charlotte and you think I'd be doing something different if I were her, I were WWE, she should be a heel or if she's going to be a face, she should do this different. What do you if you're in a creative
meeting and that comes up with what you've seen of her? What do you see about her progress and what do you think she should do going for different? Always loved her as a heel, never really was a big Charlotte babyface fan. I think she's great. I love Charlotte, I love her entering work, I love her character. I think she works best as a heel. I would probably have been an advocate for making her the heel in the in the Becky storyline, but then again I would have been wrong because I
love what Becky's doing and who knows. You know, here's the other thing we don't see as well, is that backstage when you are spending time with Becky lunch and you're running prom with her, or you're hearing storyline ideas from her, or she's just giving you opinions on things. Maybe you just even know her as a person. They someone there could have seen what we're seeing now and go they're not gonna get it, but as soon as they see her, they're gonna know why we did it, and that could be the
reason why it was her. I think Charlotte should end up being a heel. I think that, to me, a great match would be Ronda versus Charlotte. I think last time we did the show, we were talking about like Roman reigns at the time or something, and I think you asked me, like, what do you see one year from now, like being the
top act or something. I think I had said they should do Ronda versus Charlotte to headline WrestleMania, and I think that that could still be something, but I don't think it will work as well if it's Babyface versus baby Face. I think Charlotte is the best possible character as a heel, and she needs to be that. To say, like, what is a storyline for her? I haven't watched enough or given enough thought to it to just give
something off the top of my head. But man, there's no reason why she shouldn't be one of I mean, I think you'd probably have to move her away from SmackDown. I think with Becky there. But yeah, I mean there's no reason why she shouldn't be one of the headlining acts of Raw or SmackDown every week. I don't think it has to be. I don't think you always have to do every show going okay, you know what,
we have to revolve everything around what aj Styles is doing. I mean, yeah, you're building to something great, but it doesn't just need to be because he's the champion or because Roman is our guy. It has to always every single Monday be about what he's doing, especially now. It would be different if this was, you know, the days of Stone Cold was always doing something exciting. You know, he's going to come out in a beer
truck or he's going to hunt Vincement Man all night. You know, and there's a payoff at Dan Fine. I get that you're telling the lead story every week, but there's no reason where WW doesn't do that anymore. Like there's there's really no storytelling or anything that Sometimes I won't watch for months or weeks and then I tune in and I'm going the same thing is happening. There's no there's no difference. It may be a different opponent, but the
same thing is happening. Where As back in the day, you tune in and you go, wait, hold on, Triple H is in the corporation and this person's doing this, and that was kind of like a reason why you never wanted to tune out, because you didn't want to miss something. I'm going so far off track. I don't even remember what the question was, but I think that, Oh, it's it's Charlotte being the Yeah, so it's like, why not if there's something great that you have for Charlotte,
make her the focal point of that episode. It also kind of takes away from the fatigue of where there's weekly television plus a monthly pay per view, of the fatigue of that one person you're pushing every week, especially when you're not really doing anything with them, like story wise, or that story sort of is being told for one week or for that four week period to get to the pay per view, and then it's just kind of doesn't mean
anything anymore. So Yeah, I mean, yeah, I see Charlotte as like a top a top performer on any brand that she's on, but I do think she should be a heel. I think she's always worked best as a heel. Especially it's like, I mean, gosh, play up the Queen Charlotte thing. I mean it's look, I get the reality based programming that they have, but I mean, come on, like you have WW has the opportunity to be the only WWE instead of being like everyone else.
Play up characters. I mean, like, I could be wrong, I really could be, but I truly I would be more invested if these people were over the top characters. Have her be Queen Charlotte, have her b where, like you know, she doesn't walk to the ring, she needs to be carried or she needs to do like the mancho king thing, like I don't know, man make her feel like she's above everyone else. And it could be because of that reality based of like I'm Rick Flair's daughter.
I don't know if you can necessarily like go too far with it now because you've kind of established who she is. But I mean, you can have so much fun with making these people into characters and then playing off those characters on a weekly basis and creating storylines for them where you don't have to say, well, you know, we got to find something for AJ because then sometimes it just looks forced or there's just nothing to do. So you put them in, you then have to do well. The only thing we have
is we got to do. I think they ran like a series of matches where like AJ face like every great dream opponent you can think of, because like Daniel Brian, then it was someone else, and then it's like Samoa Jon. It's like geez, you're throwing all of this at me at once, Like let's let's tell some stories on here, and then we can build
to not having to throw out things because you have nothing else. Yeah, So we ended up talking about AJ styles for five minutes there when the question was about Charlotte, I apologize, no, no, but it does all it does, all tie in. It's it's good examples. See when you're not on for a while, then you know you can it builds up. You know, you got to get gotta get your ideas. And I have not had the chance to talk about Harry's Razors in a while, but they're
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as marketable acts on how WWE presented them and what they delivered? So see this is the thing where the what's what's the girl's name? Not? Let me look her up? What's what? Give me the girl's names? Again? Both of them? Oh sure, Kyrie San and Shana Basler. Yeah, yeah, okay, not not Shana, the other girl. It's like, that's an example of I remember watching a takeover and she came out and it was like they were like, and here she is in her like a
yacht persona. It's like, okay, no, but they said yacht they said persona, yeah, and it was whoever the commentator was, And I just remember I was watching with a friend. I'm like, they don't even know they have a character, and they don't even know what it is. They don't even know how to present it. It's like, that's the case of going like she's playing something because of the laziness of your staff to either not find out what it is and play off of that or build off of
that, it's just going. I mean, I don't know. She goes out there and she acts like she's a pirate, so I guess, let her be a pirate. But it means nothing. It plays nothing into her character, nothing into the storylines that they're doing. So I don't get that, and it's hard for me to get behind something like that. She's a great worker. Shana Basler is like, that's that's a good character in the
sense that you watch her and you just don't like her. Sometimes it could be because you think she's doesn't have personality, or she doesn't have a character or you whatever, or she's in that spot because of Ronda Rowsei. But that's good. You need to have someone on there for people to say, I don't like that person who cares about the reason you have something there. So I think she's great and I think she should be used that way.
I think that you know what's probably gonna happen is she's going to come up and probably work Rhonda and they tell that story of like the friend betraying her, which you know, I guess it's a layup and it's easy, and that seems to be like what they go with. But I like her. I didn't see I gotta be honest. I stepped away during that match, so I can't even remember if I saw any of it. But nothing jumps to my head about either of them as far as evolution goes, So sorry,
sure, no no problem. What I'm talking about the Battle Royal and how that was handled with names from the past mixed with current names, and it seemed like it was a very intricately bulk booked match. I assume you were probably around for some throwaway Battle Royals and a couple of row rumbles. What jump out to you about how how that to your eye played out for the time that it lasted. Yeah, I liked it. I mean, I the that that dance thing was just it's embarrassing. Honestly to me,
that's embarrassing, but maybe it works and maybe some people enjoyed it. I was like, why am I watching this? I liked the booking of it. I thought that what was great about it is that it's always fun in those types of matches where you don't know who's gonna win and you can kind of give a case for you know, maybe at the time there's probably like four or five left and you're kind of like, oh, okay, well, I mean I can kind of see them going here and kind of see
them going there, which is always good. We're usually in these in these battle royals typically like not so much with Royal Rumboy. I know they've done it a couple of times, but you kind of always end up with like the whole like two heels versus one, and you're like, okay, I kind of get where this is going. And one of them one of the heels is one that you know for sure isn't gonna win. Where in this
one, I thought it was great. It was odd. I mean, I don't know if it's just that they've had the other legends before so they felt like, well, we haven't had Ivory, so like, let's give her that little moment. And maybe they just kind of passed that around, as you know, next time there'll be a new one and that person kind of gets a moment. But I don't know. I would have liked to have seen. If I have to complain about something is I would have loved
to have seen. Look if Trish or Leita or who else was in there that was kind of a big name. Let's just use those two as an example. Look, if those two can go, why not set something up? You know, like, why not set something up between or Trish wasn't in there. I'm sorry, right, No, they did a tag team match. I apologize. You have Michelle McCool right, who obviously seems eager
to want to kind of stay involved a little bit. You can't commit full time, but you have someone like that who can go, who has name recognition, or pick anyone and set something up because again, if like you're talking about evolution, it would have also been like a great night to have a Sasha Banks go over a Trish or a Michelle McCool or Alita and just kind of have a great match but kind of show that you know it's it's their time now, or build to something. But I thought I thought it
was good. I think again nia Jacks. I think was the only disappointment that I had in her winning was that we've seen that match before, and I feel like it's one I don't mind seeing a match again. I always hate when you build up to something and you're excited about you know, you don't know where it's gonna go, and then it ends up being something you've seen before. Like so Nia Jacks winning about Royal where two things. One you could have built someone, which I guess, fine, you give it
to Nia Jacks. But there was there's no reason for me to a go uh oh, look out Rohnda or go oh, finally I'm gonna get this again, because there was nothing from that first match that really made you go, I definitely need to see this again, or they didn't build anything for me to go she's a threat or that you know, there's a compelling story
already in place. So that part to me was kind of like, ah, okay, well you should have just built someone new there, or get someone excited for like a brand new match, because it's not like they're building that battle Royal as like a Royal Rumble that will go down in history.
Is like, I'm gonna say this person was a Royal Rumble winner, and you want to put that on somebody, have a surprise when it that gets people excited for that person to face Rhonda, or have it set up so that when you're going to give them something they've seen before, that there's a reason for me to care that I'm getting it again. So it felt a little like a lost opportunity. Yeah. I mean, if she would have done something to end the show, I think it wouldn't have been. But
to me at least, it did feel like a lost opportunity. And I'm not to say that you just give it to anybody just to surprise people, but you know, there had to be someone in that match that could have felt like, ooh, I really want to see that now. Maybe you know, I know a lot of people are high on Ember Moon that could have been. It hard for me to remember everyone else in that battle Royal. But as long as it makes sense, I'm not saying just have Ivory
win because no one would see it coming. And I feel like they've done
that a lot like these past WrestleManias. Just give them a surprise where no, if it makes sense, great, but also give me a reason to care that Naya Jacks won, or give me a reason to look forward to that, because in their first match, I think there was Alexa bliss Er feared right, but I don't think you really watched that and was like, oh, okay, Naya is a threat just because the way that she looks, you know, I feel like WW takes a lazy route sometimes like oh
my god, she's so big, or she's so powerful, or she's so this, Like that's enough for us to make you care. It's it's not like give me something, give me, give me something a little bit deeper than that. So yeah, I guess lost opportunity for me, but not
to necessarily say it was like the wrong decision. And then finally tris Stratus Alita Alicia Fox Mickey, James Mickey was around when you were there, talk about her a little bit and and your thoughts on how they incorporated the return of Trish and Leada is sort of a feel good nostalgia moment from another era. Yeah, I think that was one of those where it's like, we're going to give them to you so that you can pop because they're here and
you grew up with them, and but that's all it is. You know. It wasn't like there was Trish was going to put someone over or Lda was going to put someone over. It was just a fun here we are, let's all be excited that we're here and have a match. I think that pre match proo was horrendous. I think that the the acting of playing it off was horrendous. I think that the match was, you know,
it was cool. There was some good spots in there. I think the the Trish doing the or Mickey's up on the top rope and she does the hurrican Ron and then you block that. I thought that was a good spot. But you know, it is what it is. It was just you
got to see Tris Stratus and Leada again. But I thought that it could have been done in a more meaningful way because I think there's money, and you know, I think maybe this is wrong with me sometimes, but I do go back to like real life sports sometimes, like if you have boxing or you have UFC or MMA just in general, but you can you had someone from the past who was great and you can bring them back to you know, gsp I guess is kind of an example now where you can have
those like dream matchups between those two. Why not use Trish to in either in that situation or for the future, you know, mania or something where those are the spots where you can say, hey, look, we have to fill fifty two weeks of television plus however many pay per views that they do twelve or even more. It's it's tough for us to be able to do what we did back in the day and save things like you kind of have to get to things or else things start losing their appeal. Well,
then you have someone like Trish that you could use in those spots. You know, you can say, hey, as opposed to us getting to Ronda versus Charlotte, now let's put Tricia in that spot and we sell it as like this was you know what many consider to be the girl who kind of was the first to break a barrier or however, you tell the story, and now she's facing the girl that's on top now leading the revolution. Give
me something like that that's interesting. I mean just to say, like, let's get a pop out of them appearing and then having just you know, a fun match and them hugging at the end. I don't really get what that accomplishes. I think Mickey James is great. I haven't seen a lot of her lately. You know, again, I preferred her more in like the psychopath stalker of Trish Stratus kind of character, because she played that so well. Again, why can't Why can't the characters be diverse? What makes
her any different than Alicia Fox or Alexa Bliss or anybody else? There's nothing, you know, create a character for her and have her be something, because I feel like people are sort of maybe tired of her. I don't know if it is the right word, but there's no reason to care about her. So now you have two people, you have a match that doesn't mean anything with people in it that no one cares about, and you're going
nowhere with it. It's just there to fill time or to get you to say, like I saw Trish on television ten years ago, and now I get to see her in person. Okay, great, let's finish that up and move on then, when you can actually lie those people in the ring to do something. Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn some wrestling history, don't miss the Nineties Past Cast Every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. Alex and Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past
by taking you through the Torch issue from that very week. Follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties Past Cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. Do you remember have any memories of Alicia Fox back when you were in WWF? She just yeah, she seems like they've finally taken her real self and decid I had to exaggerate
it, maybe slightly for television. What what what do you think about her upside then? And what do you remember about how what she was like behind the scenes and how she approached her career? Yeah? Great girl, I love her. She's great. We I don't think I can't say like we worked together a lot because there wasn't a lot to do. But yeah, I was there when she we did the the Was it fatal four Way? Was that the name of the pay per view? Remember when everything was themed?
I can't remember if it was called Fatal four Way, but that's where uh yeah, whoever the champion was at the time at Oh wow, that's crazy, where like they legit put the title on her because Vince said, we're calling this fatal four way. We have to make people think that, you know, you shouldn't be able to win a match in this, so just give her the title. It's like, wow, that's why we're handing out titles now. But I don't be honest, I don't understand what that.
Okay, So it's a fatal four way, so the odds are against the champion to win. So if we're going to start branding this pay per view, and I'm sure Vince thought of it as like we're going to do this every year for the next twenty years, that you know, we need people to go, oh wow, I need to watch that because a champion shouldn't win that kind of match. And there you go. See it didn't
happen. The champion, and I want to even say almost if we look back at the results, maybe minus like if there was an important champion working on a different story, it didn't happen. But I think they changed titles in every match of a fatal four way match. But even if they didn't, the concept was we just have to have a title changed hand so that next year people go, I have to watch that because the title change hands.
And I guess I'm not against that as long as, like, Okay, if that's what we're doing, we shouldn't say it the day of the event. Let's build towards that, you know, Let's have a reason for someone to be a champion, not just say it because it is what it is, and we're going to do it that night with no explanation or reason why this person is deserving of a championship, but to be hones honest. From what I've seen of her, and again, I don't watch the weekly
shows that much. I don't see a difference in what we presented her as and what when she was champion, where she got her you know, three minutes every week, so you know, keep keep that in mind, but I don't see her as being much different than what I remember us presenting her as at the time, and maybe I'm missing something. Yeah, they just they portrayed her as a little out there and crazy and temperamental, and I don't even know what what kind of the adjectives to describe her. Very they're
treating her as very unconventional, unpredictable, and maybe a little flighty. I don't know. Sure flighty's prbably the wrong rote sure of herself, but very unpredictable. And yeah, it's just quirky and in a way that I don't I think is amplified more than it was five and ten years ago. Uh yeah, I mean is it comedy though, Yeah, it's played for comedy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not really like you're not building to anything with their right with it? No, No, I mean she was
a substitute for Alexa because Alexa got hurt. So I mean she's more she's more traded as an an oddity and a sidekick than a serious fighter who is a contender or even hopes to be a contender. But you know, they love having one of those on the show. Oh totally always have to have that. Yes, yeah, well, any anything else from Evolution stand out that you want to comment about as a as a production or individual performances, commentary, anything that that you kind of watch it, I'll do it.
I'll do it by asking you some questions. When you see Tony Storm, do you see a star? Yeah? Yeah, I think I think that potential is. But just you look at her, like the way it's presented is you just look at her and she's a star. Do you see that? Yeah? I get it. Yeah, okay, yeah, okay, I won't argue it. Yeah. I mean, it's not saying she's not. It's subjective. I yeah, I think I think the way she cares herself and the way she looks, I think I understand that they want that
they want to see what they can get out of her. And and and she answered that match pretty banged up, and so she was good, don't get me wrong, oh right, but she adjusted her she adjusted her style of match that she might have wanted to have instead. Yeah. And again, I don't want to take away from saying that she can't be I just because that was the first time I had seen her from start to finish in
like an entire segment. And it's like when they were pumping that I'm like, I get why you're saying that, but it's not translating to me. Seeing her for the first time. It's like I'm Whitney seeing this huge star when it's like, they don't just say that about everybody. So I just was seeing yeah, And then I'll ask the other one is Tamina Snuka,
Like do you at all fall for it anymore? I mean, how many times are they going to give her five minutes to say, oh, oh, this is a threat, and then you never see her again, and then when you do, she's losing or whatever. And then she comes back again six months later and they go, oh my god, here she is. She's a threat, Like, is it working with you? Well, I think it's too early to tell at this point. I think what she was gone for a while and then she came back. And what I applaud
them for is making it her. If you're gonna have around television and she's been around a while and there's some recognition there, make her seem relevant. There's something going on with your nia Jackster telling a story. I do not expect Temina to be a top star nine months from now, or even a particularly relevant top tier star nine months from now. But what I like the idea of is bring her back because she's been defined down and defined as something
other than a central character in the division. She's been gone a while. That gives you that you can hit the reset button then, And so I'm an advocate for it's kind of what you talked about earlier with Ronda. Have to Mina look like she's got a new attitude, a new determination. There's some momentum there. She's got a new attitude or fresh out, whatever you tell the story why we should look at her differently after she's been away.
Feed her to Ronda, build her up as a threat, but have her on a beat her And so now you have a two month span where you don't have to feed Ronda, Charlotte or Becky or somebody you know, once you get past Survivor series. To me, just build up to Mina and have Ron create a storyline where there's a sense of jeopardy. People know better if you know how the business works. But you get into the story and
you go, wow, this is going to be interesting. This is a challenger that we didn't expect that came out of the blue, and she's on a hot streak. Boom. Then you have r on a beater beater decisively. I don't feel like that was fooling me. I feel like that was telling a short story to bridge to a more important story next year. Hey,
I'm fine with it. If that's what they're doing. It's just funny that it's always heard that, Like I watch that, I don't think you're laugh I will understand I'm saying that like that, so I'm sorry, I remember, but like I want to be clear, I don't think that's what I don't know. They're not doing that. I think they're gonna do something with Nya and Timina and maybe a tag team. Not at that level. Cool and if so, that's fine, But more it was more example wise.
I'm okay with bringing her back, but it was sort of almost like a dare or a challenge in a way to say, to offset what your criticism is, I think they should push her hard, but not expect fans to expect that to last a long time. No no, no, yeah, and then listen. I completely agree with you that they if you're going to use her and you have her, do something with her. But I just think it's funny that this has to be like the six or seven times
that they've tried to do that and they just go nowhere. It's like, let's use that for this one segment or this or these few minutes, but we don't really mean that we're going to do anything with her. I find it hilarious that they use her for that. Yeah. The only other thing is I think, honestly, after watching Evolution and kind of seeing the roster
of girls that they have, they should have their own show. Like, I think that there's no reason with the WW network why they as opposed to like saying, hey, the girls are at a point where they should have a meaningful segment or you know, two meaningful segments on the show. I think they're I think they're at the point where they have the draws to have their own show, and I think it should be one show. I think
it should be one champion. You can have a tag team champion, like you're even saying with you know, you put together a Nyeana to Meena, and there's so many other different clicks that you see on air that you can easily do that you could have a secondary title. I think you do like quarterly pay per views with them. I think I think it would be a great show. There's no reason why it couldn't be successful, and then you
know, really showcase them. I think that if like Fox or USA say well we don't want you to take Ronda or Charlotte or whoever it may be off the show, there's no reason why you can't have them, you know, still be part of that and kind of go like, hey, you know, we are one company, so you know, we can utilize talent however we choose to. But this girl comes from you know, whatever show you call it. You know, let's just say it's called Evolution. Well
this is this. You can see her every week on the WW networker on USA or wherever you do it on Evolution. But you still are able to
use Ronda in whatever way to progress. Why not use raw to progress the storylines that then you can tune into Evolution to see I don't think there's anything wrong with that, you know, like almost like a cross promotion thing where you know, like you have it built in there with page where she can just go, hey, you know, I wanted to book a segment on the show tonight to showcase two great women that were on Evolution last week, and I wanted them to come here on SmackDown, So I worked it out
and we have, you know, a cross promotional thing here. I wouldn't do it like how they used to do it with like Ron SmackDown, where they were brand splits, but they weren't. But I also don't think that this necessarily has to be considered like a brand split. Just give them their own show and then utilize them if you need to on your other shows. Yeah no, and I don't. I don't think that's far fetched. Whether it's on you know, f S one or WWW Network Exclusive or some combination
of both. I think that fits the way wwb's building their portfolio of hours of original programming to use their corporate speak. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Jonas is great. Cool, Thank you, Yeah, great, real good discussion. I appreciate it. All right, man, I'll talk to you soon, all right, great, John. You can hear a lot more of John Pimerini in the archives on the PW Torch VP website. If you're not a VIP member, get full information at PW torch vipinfo dot com.
So PW torch are prosing Torch and subscribe Thanks to John Pimerini. Always pleasure talking to him and getting his insight. I thought real good timing, having since he watched Evolution this week and was around during a very different era of women's wrestling to convey his thoughts on how things are similar and how things have changed a lot since he worked for that company for nearly two years, just a half full of years ago. All right, thanks everybody, until next
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