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dot Com slash weight fifty to get fifty percent off. Now I'm gonna go have my delicious lunch. Now, PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Killer Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for this week's Interview Classic, where Wadekiller
interviews one of pro wrestling's newsmakers ten years ago. This week, XWWE creative Team ever John Piermarini joined me and we talked about the hype for helen A Seal, Randy Orton against Daniel Brian, looking ahead to wrestle Mania thirty, and the Royal Rumpe preceding it, Undertaker's potential opponents behind the scenes stories on working with Vince McMahon, Triple H and Michael Hayes, and more insights from John Piermarini again he worked behind the scenes in WWE in circa two thousand and
nine twenty ten. We had live callers and email questions throughout this originally live streamed on October twenty fifth, twenty thirteen, and it is today's Wade Keller Progressling Podcast Interview Classic for Thursday, November two, twenty twenty three. Welcome
to vp W Torch Live cast. I am Wade Keller, editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter since nineteen eighty seven, and also pwtorch dot com, the website since nineteen ninety nine, and the PW Torch apps available free on iPhone Android in the Google Play Store, Amazon Kindle Fire, and the Windows Phones App Store, and also the latest Samsung Smart TVs and Smart
Blu Ray players. Just do a search for PW Torch you'll find our free app and we hope you can enjoy our articles through those mediums in addition to the world wide Web. Thank you for joining me today. It is Friday, October twenty fifth, two thousand thirteen. It is five thirty two Eastern
and that means it's two thirty two Pacific time. And we are live every single day on the blogtalk radio network here at PW torchlivecast dot com and Mondays we are on in the hour leading into Raw Live, so you can listen to Bruce Mitchell and Travis Bryant live discuss weekend happenings and also preview Raw,
and then Tuesday through Friday, we have different hosts different lineups. I host on Tuesdays with the Jason Powell of the website Pro Wrestling dot Net, and then Wednesdays is Pat McNeil with a special guest or guests, and Thursday James Caldwell hosts with either Torch columnist Greg Parks or Sean Radikin and Friday's Our Interview Friday, where I have a special guest from the rest world joining me. Today, I was scheduled to have Chris to Joseph, he was unable to
join us. He had a last second conflict come up that has not happened to us very often over the last couple of years, but he will be on perhaps as soon as next week, so in his place is All Star panelist John Pierre Marini, another ex WWE Creative Team member, and he would be calling in in just a moment, probably in about a minute or two, so when we hear the chime, it will be it'll be John joining
us. Also, just want to make notes that Sunday night after Helen us Cell the Helen USL pay per view at eleven thirty Eastern, so just a half hour or so after the pay per view wins, James Caldwell will be hosting with Greg Parks and taking your live phone calls and emails and discussing the
just completed event. VIP members of PW Torch and we sincerely hope you choose to spend spend a few bucks a month and become a VIP member with us and enjoy many many of the benefits and perks, new features every week, plus twenty five years worth of Insider Wrestling archives and text and PDF and audio format and VP members will have a chance on Sunday night to hear Bruce Mitchell,
Pat McNeil and me discuss the event for at least an hour. That roundtable will be available late on Sunday night again on exclusively on the PW Torch VIP audio feed. Today's live cast, by the way, will also include a VP after show exclusively for VIP members. As the after the live show goes off the air, our VIP members will have a chance to hear bonus content. John Piermurney will be sticking around after our live hour to do some
more discussion on various topics current events, including Sunday's pay per view. I do want to note that we just got t and A Impact ratings in and a sy relief in both Spike TV Headquarters and T and A Headquarters, with the rating surpassing a one point zero. Finally, it has been since September twenty since. They haven't surpassed one point zho since September nineteenth, but they are back up after a four weeks stretch under one point zero. In fact,
of the last two weeks way under one point oh. They did a point eight two rating two weeks ago at a point eight to four rating. Last week they surged we'll call it no pun intended with Fixy's husband, but they surged to a one point one rating. We'll have a lot more details on that on PW Torch dot com, so check that out. We always have great in depth coverage of ratings with demographic breakdowns and we put it all in perspective with the trends. I heard the chime and that means our guest
today, John Piermarini is joining me. John, welcome back to the live cast. Hey Wade, how you doing. I'm doing great. I'm glad you could join me. At the last second. I had explained that Chris Joseph was scheduled to be with us for they had a last second cancelation. So John, I really appreciate on short notice of you being able to join us. Sure anytime, Always good to have on. John Permrini is part of the PW Torch All Star Panel. The SPW Torch All Star Panel every
single day this month, it's a website exclusive. Next month it'll go back to being an app exclusive and if you're a VIP member, you can read it on both platforms, both the app and the website. John Permrini answers
your questions along with other All Star panelists every day on that feature. So this month you can read the views of X creative Team ever John Piermerini, X Announcer mccarsh current Indie wrestler and former ACW World Champion, Just Incredible, and many other all star panelists who have wide wide array of experience behind the
scenes in professional wrestling. Plus Torch Assistant editor James Caldwell and PW Torch website contributors join in the discussion sometimes also, that is a great feature, definitely we're checking out this month at PW Torch dot com our website. Our website, of course is updated every single day throughout the day with TV results, paper results live as they happen, and breaking news and a ton of special
feature Hope you have a chance to check that out every day. We're opening up the phone lines U six four, six, seven, two one nine, eight to eight is our phone number. If you have a question about Sundays Helen us Sell, you want to talk about where WW may go with things this Sunday, or you have some thoughts on what happens headed into survivorceries after Helena Sell, or you just want to talk about current events in professional
wrestling. Otherwise, we invite your phone calls and we also will be checking out email if you have email questions for John and me. PW Torch Live Cast at gmail dot com is our uh is our email address, and we welcome you to join in. I'm checking right now, John to see if we have any VAP members on hold who told us that they would be calling in, and uh, I'm not seeing any of the numbers on hold jump
out as VIP members. So we may go. We may go right to a couple of calls, John, and then I've got some questions for you too. But let's see, we're caollers. Take us okay, great, great, And by the way, I should note for those who are new to the show, John, for me, you were with WWE for two years. I'm trying to remember, was it roughly it was like, yeah, two thousand and nine to the beginning of not the beginning. I think it was right after Wrestlemane at two thousand and nine to the end of twenty
ten. Perfect, yep, so nearly two years with the company. So I want to throw out there too, if you have a question about that specific time period. John Piermarini was working behind the scenes with Vinsic Man, John Cena and everybody, and we certainly welcome for your questions on that era
specifically. It's always cool to get questions about that. All right, Let's let's set a record here and get to a phone call before we are more than fifteen minutes into the show, and start with aera code eight four five, and on deck will be five seven to one, eight four five. Please stay trename and where you're from? Eight four five. We've stunned him by going to him. I think you wanted to talk to christ Joseph if you want to ask Bake Dick Dudley about his fans, all right, eight
four five. I'll just avoid confusion. I gotta hang up on you. If you want to call back, you certainly can't. All right, Let's try five to seven to one as promised. Five seven one. Please state your name and where you're from. Five seven one, five seven one. All right, I am over too. All right, well, let's take an email question. We got some wonder No, no, I wonder. I'm wondering if there's not a problem with switchboard the way things are showing up
as people wanting to be on hold. I got to refresh the switchboard and fix that. But anyway, all right, let's uh, you know what screw. I'm gonna ask you questions John, because I want to know what you think of the hype for Helen usself, for Randy Orton and Daniel Bryan. I think there's been some good, there's been some bad, something's missing, something's good. But overall, how do you grade it and what jumps out to you as the strength and weaknesses of the rematch of a rematch and
the ongoing storyline Wage and Stephanie McMahon kind of their power trip. Yeah, I don't. I don't know if I could give it a grade, just because I haven't seen everything I've been. You know, I don't watch SmackDown at all, but I'll tune into to Raw periodically and check it out, so, uh, you know, I don't know. I I kind of don't get it. I mean, it's it's a I guess I'm in the middle on it because there's aspects of it that are appealing and then there's there's
just mind boggling aspects of it. I just don't understand. I think that, you know, especially like with helping you with that All Star panel, you know, we see a lot of questions that you know, they purposely burying Daniel Bryan because they don't want him to succeed, And I think the misconception that a lot of fans have with this storyline is that although they are burying him, I don't think that that's their intention. I think they truly
we feel that this is the best way to get Daniel Bryan over. I don't think that it's working, but they truly believe this is the best way to do it and how it could be because normally, and you see this with past champions, you see the guys like the Batistas and the John Cenas and the bigger guys, they get booked strong and then you get the smaller guys. When Mysterio had the title, Brian, I can't think of anyone else off top of my head. I guess even when Heeler had the title,
they're booked and he was a heel so it's a little different. But they're booked almost weak, and you know, I don't know if that's just the perception of Vince going, well, that's the way that they're going to be perceived, So we'll give it to them that way and then show that they'll fight from the bottom and succeed or not succeed with this story though.
The weirdest part for me though, with this whole thing. Even when you had different champions, you never had the company come out and basically tell you this guy is not worthy of being a champion. He's not worthy of the position that he has. It's it's almost as if you'd have this movie that you're gonna promote and the studio comes out and says, you know, hey, Ben Aflack doesn't deserve to be Batman. He thinks he's not even as
good as anyone who's been Batman before. And so but anyways, it's twelve dollars, make sure you go get it or go watch it this Friday, and great, we hope that we're number one at the box office. I mean that part. I just don't understand the way that they're presenting Daniel Bryan, burying him and then telling you to spend money to watch him wrestle. So with that said, I don't know. I think majority of the people lost interest in this match itself two months ago. I think that they went
two pay per views in a row, disappointing the viewers. And I don't know, I don't necessarily know if anyone's all that interested in coming back. Let me ask about that finished to battle round the big show runs in knocks,
both guys out, show goes off the year, no decision. I don't know how my job was just dropped when I realized that's the end, you know, like to me to kind of point the question in a certain direction with my point of view, it seemed like that was somewhat revealing of the brain trust, the creative team ultimately basic managerrible ah not understanding that there's a core aspect to what makes people buy a pay per view in an era
where you can see five hours of it's like your answer for the all star panel that'll go up later today on Survivor series and why you know you used to be able to do the one big team against another big team and that novelty was enough to sell a pay per view, but now it's starvarsus Star matches all the time. So the gain people buy pay per views in this era where there's five six hours of primetime first run star versus Star wrestling is
there's a trust. There's an implicit trust that it may not even be overtly thought about by the buyer, by the fan, but there's an overt trust based on just history that the pay per view is where big things happen and things are resolved and you're not giving cliffhangers and you're not screwed over, especially
in the main event. And I thought that they lost sight of that on that with that finish of that pay per view, and I think it was a real blow to the trust that that the pay perview customer base is shrinking as it is, especially in the United States. It was a blow to that pack, to that unstated pack that viewers in ww we had with each
other. I feel, and this is completely just a guess, but you know, just kind of based on my experience there, what I think happened is, you know, they plan to go and who knows how far they're going with it, But let's say they planned to go three months with Brian versus Orton in this program, and you know it's planned out. I can't remember the names of the pay per views, but let's just say they go, Okay, we're going to have Brian versus Orton and Battleground at Helena Cell
and at this pay per view. So we know that we're going there, but we don't necessarily have everything locked in as far as you know, we may have an idea of going well, we know, you know, Orton's going to walk in as champion, and you know, two three months later,
however long ago, he's still going to be champion. We may know that, but you know, in this case, I think that what probably happened is that they said, Okay, we've got to get to Helen a Cell with this, and maybe they didn't even have a finish for Battleground until the day of the pay per view. And I mean, I think it's
pretty clear. I think you've had Meris writers come on here, and I think you know, whoever else is probably mentioned that there's there's rewrites and decisions made hours before a show, And what it sounds to me was that they felt, how do we get out of this match without declaring a champion and
going one more and that was the best scenario. And I mean, when you're locked up against you know, a time, it might just have been the best thing that they could have done, because maybe they didn't want to put the title on one of them, because then how can you realistically get to a third matchup. I mean, it's possible, but maybe at the time they went, you know, there's only so many stories we could tell
with this. If it's not on. If Orton doesn't win it, we've already expressed our frustration with him, So how could we get him in the match again? If Daniel doesn't win, well, that's easy, he's out. We can we don't have to give him another opportunity. So maybe they felt like that was just the best way to give both these guys into a match again. And maybe it was the last minute decision because I truly feel
that, you know, creative. I know that they're not. They don't have a huge fan base out there, but you know they're smarter than they get credit for. And there is a lot of great ideas that come out of that room that never actually happened because it hits a roadblock somewhere. And sometimes there's a lot of bad ideas that do happen, but also bad ideas that don't because you know, when it hits Vince or or Triple H, they make it better or they just say it's not going to happen, but
you know it was. Ultimately it's going to come down to Vince, and you know I could I could sit in a room and I could pitch that idea. He doesn't like it. He's not going to go, well, you know, I pay you to to write the show, so I guess
that's what we're doing. So you've never said that. Ultimately, that's what Vince wanted to do, and and you know he had his reasons for it, and you know, again that would have worked on a raw I you know, but the Big Show thing is just tiring, and I'm glad they kind of moved past the whole him being stuck with having to do what Triple H tells him, but the whole, you know, the whole thing with getting fired. I mean, guys are getting fired on a weekly basis.
Now, that thing is so tired and warm vow. I can't believe they still go that route and expect, you know, people to care or get a reaction out of someone getting fired. And I mean, realistically, it just doesn't make sense how Big Show has so much access to I guess the arena and when you it just tells me as a fan, all right, well if I want to I don't want, I'm gonna held Daniel Bryan, I'm gonna I'm gonna hop the guard, I'm gonna knock out Brandy or and
there you go. You know, it's just treated so differently that I feel like if you want to present something one way, it's got you've got to be consistent in that for people to continue to believe in what you're trying to get across. We invite you to email the show with feedback or questions or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at petew torch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at PW torch dot com. Also welcome your feed back on
Twitter. Even follow us on Twitter at PW torch and follow me at the Wade Keller. That's at PW Torch and at the Wade Keller. Was there ever a time or let me ask this specific if you were sitting there and you heard this finish for the pay per view Daniel Bryan and Randy Orton being knocked out by Big Show when it goes off the air, and you're thinking, or you know, a couple of people on the creative team are thinking, oh man, you know, and let's say it's not a last second
thing. You know, like this is brought up by vincck Mann on a conference call. Would you feel comfortable saying, you know, hey, here's the downside of this. I think we should look for another way. I think the negative autlways a positive is the environment with the creative team working with Vincic Man such where that can be said or does everyone when it gets to that level a main event, pay per view finish, you kind of know that you better not. You know, Keel Vinson Hunter, this sounds awful
and here's why. Okay, So I guess you can't just give one straight answer to that, but I can kind of get you a few different ones. Speaking for myself, Yes, there has been times where there's been something that was set that you know, I'd raise my hand and I and I'd say, hey, just something different, you know, not to say I don't think we should do this, just something different, what about this?
And he has changed his mind, whether it was me or whether it was somebody else that Sometimes it's an agent that that gives an idea and if Vince likes it, he will change his mind and he will go with that. But you know, it just kind of depends on for me, the mood. So if if I know that we went through this finish and when we had the initial meeting with Vince on on Thursday or Friday, or the conference
call or whatever, it may be, and he was set. He goes, Guys, I came up with this idea, it's the greatest thing ever. This is what we're gonna do. Then you kind of just sit back and go, I mean, unless I have something so great that's going to blow him away, he's pretty set on doing this, so you kind of and you kind of need to know when you can throw something out, because you don't always want to be the one that goes, I got something different,
I got something different. I got something different. And a lot of times it was actually there were times where I would say something and I'd get, you know this this look from Ran like I can't believe you just said something. So there's times like that where you should go I just don't want to deal with that, So let it go. That's what they want to do. Fine, if there's something that I truly want to fight for, you know, like, uh, I guess it doesn't relate to this.
But you know, when it came to like money in the bank and they they wanted to put it on give it to Orton originally, and I said, I think we should put it on miss and you know, Vince gave me the opportunity to say, why should we put it on miss And then you had Brian over there looking at you like I've got this whole thing planned out with Orton going over and you kind of just I'll deal with the consequence of that, which there wasn't really a consequence except for you just knew you're
on his bad side. But and you just go, you know what, I don't care. This is this is something that's important to me. So this is what I'm gonna fight for. And there's other time that you sit there and you go, no, like, fine, if that's the finish that he wants to the pay per view, I'm not all that invested in going into battle on this one because then I can't go into battle on the
next one. So you just kind of let it go. And again it really comes to the level of now, let's say there's a right like we have a finish, and let's say arn Anderson raises his hand, he goes, what if we have show come out knock out both guys. We go
off the air, and Vince likes it. Okay, well, maybe if I don't like that, I'm not gonna raise my hand and go I don't like it because you absolutely cannot do that unless you have something to put in its place, because if you don't, you're you're dead in the water right there. And on top of that, I remember, I can't remember the details of it. I'm sure we talked about it on your show one time.
I remember we were doing the Nexus story and we had Sena versus Shamus coming up for the WWE title, and Sena and Seamus stood together in the ring with chairs five days before they're gonna you know, and this is like their third matchup, five days before they're gonna go to battle, and they're standing there with their backs to one that. I think John's phone cut off, but I hope he can call it right back again. That you,
John, I probably was probably drove out a range. Sorry about that, everybody, after just joining us, Chris Joseph you may have heard on Twitter it was our scheduled guest ex WWE Creative Team Ember in the mid two thousands. He had a last second conflict in his schedule, something much more important than doing the show. If you can imagine something, if you can imagine
such a thing, and uh so he had about out. But John Permerini did join us, and he is now back with us, John, we you were probably uh maybe talk talk no no, no, I no, definitely am not complaining about that at all, but we probably missed the last ten seconds before your phone disconnected, before you might have known you disconnected. So if you want to pick up, did you hear that it was Sina and seamuson's ring? I'll pick up at that point. Yeah, okay.
So you know, so they're in the ring and they're holding off Nexus with chairs and that's the way they wanted to go off the show. And I said, who who's gonna want to pay to see these two guys fight? You know, they have this bitter rivalry and they're standing there as a team, and then they're going to turn around and fight each other at a pay review. And I remember going okay, so and he couldn't say I told him, And he goes, well, what I mean, how do you
not? How do you get out of that? Did I remember going, okay, Well, what if you've got these two guys with the chairs? So NeXT's powders and they go out and Seena turns around and boom, Shamus hits them with the chair. You know, it's like, well, Seamus obviously being the heel is going, Hey, I'm not trying to get my ass kicked by Nexus, so I'm going to stand next to Sina. But now that Nexus is gone, I mean, the only reason why I was
standing next to you, Sina, was to save my ass. So I'm going to I'm gonna knock you out now, and I'm going to get out
of here. And if, if you know, the wolves want to come and feed on Sena while he's laying in the rain, great, And I remember he just he was so set on it being those two standfall back to each other to end the show, and that was it, and it's like, all right, well that's it. It yea more generic question, but related to this interaction that the creative team like you had with hitsick Man, did you feel by the time you left after nearly two years that you learned
a lot and had some misconceptions and preconceptions about how wrestling should work broken.
Were there's some ideas that you would have suggested in the first six months that you worked for WUM that you would have been embarrassed to even offer in your last six months because there's kind of a back and forth education process, not so much just about what's right and wrong, but also what fits WWE and vitzick Man's vision for how they want to promote, the pace at which they want to do things, and how they hold back on like everybody always has
a great idea. Hey, if you turn John Cena this month, you could pop business. And my answer to that is you can turn John Cena any day between now and his retirement and pop business. That's not a genius suggestion, that's a duh. You know, of course you can. The question is is now a better time than in the future, and do you want to spend that card now versus later? So more of a broad question to you, But how do you feel about your experience there? Yeah?
I mean you definitely learn along the way and know the way that he wants to present his product, the way he wants to tell a story, the way he wants to build, how he builds someone, how you don't build someone. You learn all those things. So yeah, I mean there's definitely things that I had pitched when I first got there, and every writer that walks in there thinks that they have the best ideas to turn business around, and there's been I could say probably every writer when I was there, at
least twice pitched turning Sena. But that was also because you know, when I was there, we were struggling to come up with something to kind of give us that that pop, and you know, we kind of went to, well, I mean, if that's what we're looking for, this is it. And you know, you look back and you go, was it the best timing? I mean, I don't know that since I've left that Sena has accomplished anything as a babyface, all that significant that he couldn't have
done being a heel right now. So I think if they would have done it, I think it would have helped. But you know, I don't think that it would have been such a horrible idea at the time. I think that anytime. My philosophy is anytime you you do something, as long as you're not doing it, just do it. It's fine if you can think long term. Okay, we're gonna turn Sina today. Okay, well what does that do for us? Because once you turn Sena, you can't
turn him back. Maybe ever, you know, maybe towards the end of his career you can. But then you got to you gotta decide, you got to go, if this is going to be impactful, he's got to be a heel and he's got to stay a heel for as long as possible. So as long as you can plan that out and think about maybe even
one two years ahead, then you're good. But you know, just to kind of throw something out there, like, you know, if I interact with people on Twitter when I had the blog and all that stuff, you know a lot of people think I've got this great idea or you know, I remember one person said something I said something on Twitter or stuff and he he replied back and he said, yeah, coming from the guy who worked, who wrote, who wrote for the show when it was like the worst
restaurant I've ever been, Like, yeah, you you're a real authority in that. And you look at it and you go, look, I bet you think you're ten times better than I am when it comes to writing or storylines or creating a character. And maybe you are, but it doesn't mean that when you show up there, any of that is happening. So you
know, you learn a lot. But you know, what happened with me, and this is kind of when I knew what's the point of staying here was that it got to the point for me where I got there, and you have this new kid who's enthused to try to literally change the business. Everyone pups in there going I'm going to have that idea and you come in
with that. And for me, going on almost two years later, I found myself going, anytime I wrote something for myself and wanted to get something going, it was either turned down or it was going, we can't do that because we do things this way. Before it could even get to Vince, so I found myself going, I'm just it's gonna write to please Bryant and everyone eventually, I feel, turns into that. And that's what I always thought was the problem at the end, and I felt like we're never
gonna see a turnaround because everyone eventually just goes. In order for me to feel like I'm spending you know, one hundred hours or more a week dedicating my life to wrestling, you know, I didn't see my wife, I missed per days, I missed anniversaries, I missed everything, and and for what so that I can just show up to a show and take notes or to write, you know, write a promo, so you kind of go
all right For me to feel accomplished and get something on TV. I'm gonna write it the way that these guys want me to write it so that it can get on and I felt limited in doing that. But eventually you just got to go. If that's what they want, fine, But then that got boring to me, and eventually I was just like, what's the point. I don't want to live in Stanford, Connecticut, you know, I don't want to I don't want to not see anybody I know. So I'm
done. And so that's that's what I kind of feel like. And I think people, I think you were talking to someone a couple of weeks ago, a writer that just left or was just working there. Yeah, yeah, And I don't remember how long he said he was there, but it wasn't it wasn't that long. And he just kind of had his sort of his own reasons as to like why he wanted to leave. But I can tell you that, you know, you go in there going this is my dream job and it was for me, and eventually, though, you go,
it's not what I thought would be. So there's factors that would get you to walk away. And in his case, he's like, you know what, I have an opportunity to go do something that's for me and that I can actually do the way I want it to be done. So this
no longer is my dream job. So I'm out of here, and I feel like I don't think Vince knew that was how and that's why eventually it gets to the point where some of these guys, at least for me, started going, you know what, I'm gonna pitch what I want to Vince and if he goes for it, great, if he doesn't, fever and I know I'm gonna get on Brian's bad side, but so be it. I mean, I'm already I'm already counting down the hours until I'm gonna leave.
Anyways, So, and what I noticed was that Vince is receptive to a lot of ideas. But the problem is that a lot of people don't pitch to him. I think they're worried about you know, let's say they pitched it to Michael, or they pitched it to Brian. I know it's different now with you know, whoever is in charge over there, But and it gets shot down and they just go, well, I'm not I'm not
repeating that. And it sucks because people have great ideas that sometimes never actually happened, and I could probably guarantee you creative had some great ideas for Brian versus Orton that maybe even never got to the point of Vince hearing it. M In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll
be taking a weekly look at this page in NXT's early history. Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they did or didn't work out Exclusively for PW Torch VIP members. Michael hays been in the news lately in the doghouse for a variety of reasons. But what was Michael Hayes's What was he like as a coworker, a colleague, and what was
the perceived perception of him? Do you think from Vincent Man, Triple H, Kevin donn as somebody who is one of the few actual veteran wrestlers on the creative side of things, and certainly a guy who's been around a long time, but comes with some baggage real quick, not to bore people that may already know, but what's the reasoning for him being in the doghouse. He drank with a talent who was trying not to drink anymore and encouraged her
to drink, so he's allowed to drink again. That may not have been allowed either, So I think it was kind of a double whammy. They didn't want him drinking at bars, you know, under WWE's clocker on the road, and then he was with a female talent and was trying to encourage her to drink, and I think that got him in real hot water. And I think there was one other thing that has been hinted about that I
even confirmed that kind of irked him too. So wow, Okay, So your question is the what was your perception of the Creative teens thoughts on Michael Hayes. Was he intimidating as an ex wrestler with so much experience and so many things to draw from and a respected wrestling mind, or was he seen as kind of a joke because or not a joke? But like, did he undo the respect through his own personal actions and behavior and demeanor? And then how to visit and look at him. Yeah, I don't know,
I don't. He was very, very respected amongst the writers. You know, a lot of the writers were wrestling fans and knew who Michael was. So you walk in with the respect for him automatically. And I had that, and and you're also you know, the thing is too, when you pitch to someone like Michael, who's been there for so long, but also who understands everything, it's you get a little, uh, you get a little nervous when you pitched him because you wonder, all right, do I
have you know, everything lined up? Is this something that he's heard before, or you know, how is he going to react to this? And so it's a little intimidating to pitch to him. I never really had to pitch straight to Michael because he was on SmackDown and I was on Raw.
But you know there were times too where you know, I would talk to him like I respected Michael a lot, and I respected his vision of what he was trying to do because I thought at the time SmackDown was was better than Raw when I was there, and so you know, I I had many talks with him where I said, I trade me, you know, literally take a smack down rider or put him on raw and I want to come SmackDown. And and I know he wanted to do it, and I
know Brian zidoed it. But you know, as far as the way he's perceived, he's perceived as a very smart man and he's well respected as far as his ideas and his thoughts go, I do think there's still a little bit of the uh the jokes so that he could put on himself, you know, with his wardrobes, uh huh. But uh, but you know what, he owns it. And the thing is is I don't see anything
wrong with it. I mean sometimes when he walks in with you know, an orange uh tuxedo suit on, you know, everyone laughs, But he owns it and that's what he likes and and you know, and he pulls it off because he walks around with confidence and uh. And I think that might be where some of the you know, the the jokes might come from.
But I don't think that, uh, he would have been there that long and been so close uh to Vince and the creative process and even with producing the matches had he just kind of been perceived as anything less than an asset. Yeah, a very big asset, mind you. Yeah, interesting
else. So sorry, let's go to no. I was just gonna say, but you know, you know what I don't know because I don't know, you know, if there was jokes told you know, whisper in Kevin Dunzeer, I don't know, maybe, but I can just tell you that overall, you know, you could kind of see if someone would say something or suggest something. Uh, it's listened to you, Like when Pat Patterson
opens his mouth and suggests something, he has Vince's full attention. Yeah, and and he's going to listen to every word Pat says, and he's gonna, he's gonna and if it's something if Vince said, let's say, for example, Vince says we're gonna have big, she'll come out and knock out both guys. And Pat Patterson raised his hand and goes, Vince, no, we shouldn't. Instantly, Vince wants to know Pat's idea and why Pat doesn't like that idea, because he respects whatever it is that Pat's thinking,
and I think it just kind of trickles down from there. I think Kevin Dunn has that too, But then it kind of trickles down. But I would definitely say that Michael is on that next level below it where he's not always going to get the Okay, we're going with what Michael said, even if the room hates it. But he would do that for Pat. And
if he doesn't like something that Michael says, he'll tell him. But I think Pat nine times out of ten would convince Vince to do what he thought, and if he didn't, Vince would would kind of keep that in the back of his head and kind of go, Okay, we're going with this one this time. Pat, next time, well we may do it your
way. Yeah. Interesting, Yeah, it's interesting here that dynamic between, you know, the different hierarchies of how took Man reacts and plays to the resume of sorts in the relationship that he's built with each of the different writers. Yeah. Yeah, all right. So if you're just joining us, John Piermarini is our guest execreative team member in WWE in two thousand and nine
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ninety nine cents a month. Check it out patreon dot com slash pw Torch VIP. That's patreon dot com slash pw Torch VIP and you can also upgrade to other tiers and receive even more benefits through Patreon. All right, we will now go back to go back to the full lines, and actually I think succeed this time in bringing a VIP member on board Aera code seven to four VIP member, Dave, Thanks for calling, David Pittsburgh. Are you there, I'm here? How are you doing late? Doing great? Thanks
for joining us. What have you got for John today? First off, one of the sec congratulations on one thousand shows. I've actually listened to pretty much all of them. I stumbled upon h stumbled upon when I got my first I phone at the end of two thousand and nine, and I've listened ever since. But I have a couple of questions three if five the time. First off, well, how much the first one involves Paul Hayman.
How much creative direction do you think he actually has right now regarding the storylines that he's involved in. John, What do you think what kind of cretive freedo would vinceic Man give to Hayman and especially his own content? Obviously, Yeah, I don't. I honestly don't know, because I never really worked with with Paul Hall. When I was there, Uh he was, he was gone, I think, well before I got there, and obviously I was gone before he came back. I don't know. I I honestly don't
know. I'm assuming that because of who he is, you know. I think I think the best way to answer that is to go I'm sure he had an open door policy with Vince where he could walk in and pitch an idea and I think it just kind of goes from whatever he brought to the table at that point. You know, if he brew something that Vince really likes, Hey, Paul, making sure you come in here anytime you want
to, you know, tell me something. And uh and if and if it if he didn't like what what Paul was was pitching, and you know, he probably would just kind of uh huh uh uh huh. But I don't know, I don't know what if Paul's even trying to do that. You know, he may just be happy with being there and playing a character and you know, kind of tweaking ideas that come to him. But I don't know. I wish I had a more solid answer for you, but
I don't. Yeah, my interpretation for what i've or my interpretation my my uh information, I guess is that Paul does have definitely say someone is content that he's at that level where he does have says so over what he says. But I'm not so sure John that that he's somebody who can go up to Vincent go all right, here's the finish of the next pay per view match, and then here's who I want a feud with next. I don't absolutely not. No, Yeah, I think Paul could walk in there and
go, hey, Vince, you know, I see this. Uh yeah, let's just use Curtis Axel. You know, I see Joe Henning, you know, a week after week, and I'm traveling with him. I'm seeing them at live events, and I'm watching them when he's wrestling on Superstars. Man, this has got something, you know. I think if you put him with me, I got we should really do them with this guy, and and you know, and have him go all right, hey, if you think so, let's put him with you and see what we thought.
Yep, yep, very good, Dave. What else have you got for us? The second thing the Rural almost coming to Pittsburgh, for which I already have tickets workin. I'm excited about that, you know. The next couple, you know, months, I guess over the next month. Uh, it'll start taking shape towards WrestleMania. Who are early projections for Rumble winners? I know it's a pretty generic question, but just you know, what do you think it looks like at this point based on the storylines that
we're seeing right now? John, Yeah, looking ahead to Royal Rumble, I mean, are there is there a long list or short list of candidates typically at this point in the season, you know, I would think that there's probably a projected winner by now. I think that with the I would say, like the lack of big star power, typically you'd probably see a
bigger star go over just to kind of uh. I don't want to say that they don't want to give it to somebody else, but I don't know if there's someone there, and that there is and they're they're they haven't set them up yet, but you know, I could see someone like, you know, it's it's hard. It's hard to project because whatever their wrestlming the
main event is, it's it's probably already set up. And I think that they probably want to use the Royal Rumble uh to get over I feel like they're kind of pushing the world titled down and just kind of going, Hey, it's the WWE title, this is the prestigious one, and I feel like they're going to use the rumble to set up that match. So maybe I can't really necessarily see it, but maybe they want to go with you know, Brian chasing it all the way until Mania. I doubt it,
but he's someone that could go over. I don't. I don't know because I haven't watched the product close enough go they're really looking like they're setting this guy up, and I haven't noticed that from the bits and pieces that I see, so i'd probably say, you know, you could even see something like Sena comes back at Hell in a cell, Alberto del Rio re injures his arm, and I think I even gave an answer similar to this in one of the All Star panel questions. But and then you kind of put
Sena's career back in jeopardy. Did he come back too early? You have him, you know, maybe even make a surprise appearance in the Rumble he wins it, and then you kind of have that story for Sena going into Mania. But I don't know. I don't know if they want to go Sena Orton or if Brian holds the title till then now you got to think of a Heel or maybe it's a Sena And I don't know. I guess he wanted us the names, and I just talked for five minutes without really
giving one, so I apologize for that, But I don't know. If I had to guess, i'd say it's gonna be one of the bigger names Asena, maybe even like a Shamus. I don't know if they want to put him in that slot at Mania, maybe even Big Show. Who knows. Maybe you have Undertaker come back and win the Rumble and then you set that up, you know, depending on who the champion might be. I don't know, way do you like, what are some of the bigger names
there, and then maybe I can kind of give an opinion. Yeah, I mean, we're definitely entering a point where we're going to start being able to be able to make those predictions. I kind of like to wait till Survivor series before honing in on making those kinds of predictions because I think there
it is pretty wide open. And heck, I mean, Vince could have a curve ball thrown at us. When Seamus is ready to come back, he may decide he wants to move him, you know, surprise people and not do a typical finish because whatever the main event is going to be for the WWB title, he doesn't need that person to win the Rumble. In fact, he has a completely different way he wants to go about setting that match up. So therefore it's going to be Shamus winning because he wants to
get Seamus strong again so we can co headline house shows next year. So Seamus taking on del Riot WrestleMania perhaps an opening match, but that could be the surprise winner. But the angle at the Rumble would be Lesner and Sina are in the Rumble and something happens between them where they both get eliminated,
and then that leads to some story. Like I think there's such an array of possibilities, but given that Punk at some point has to break away from Paul Hayman, I don't think we'll see that still going on at WrestleMania. Hopefully you have John Cena Brock Lesner potentially in the Rumble CM Punk, Shamus making has comeback. Wade Barrett's a very dark horse. You know, Vince
decided, Hey, this is gonna be way Barrett's season. He got his vices, she's taken care of. And then whoever doesn't have the belt between Daniel Bryn and Randy Orton is another big name who would be in that mix. And then if Mark Henry's healthy again, Like I'm trying to think of all you know, that list of maybe six to eight names who are even at all a possibility, and that covers probably most of them. So is the rumor Sena versus Lessener amania Now No, No, I think there's there's
enough rumors out there. I don't have one that I consider most reliable, know, and I wouldn't say no. I kind of threw that out there more illustratively. Although I don't think Sena Lesner is being ruled out. I think uh Sena Undertaker, Sena triple ation, Sena Orton probably I would have higher on my list of likely matches. Yeah, yeah, I could. But I think Lessner is a good one that they could that they could go with, and especially because you know, who knows what they're gonna do with
Sena. They may they may want to build that that world heavyweight title again, so by putting it on and maybe you'd have the lessoner Sena for the world heavyweight title is well. And that's the thing because John Lesner has a history with the world title and so you could draw on that, you know, because that was his belt during on SmackDown when he was a champion before he quit pro wrestling to go to play for the Vikings briefly and then UFC.
I was at the I was at a preseason game at the Metrodome and got to see Brock Lesner playing NFL game preseason on the less but in a Viking uniform in person, and that was a pretty surreal experience to see that I got this in fact, not that this is all that big of a deal, but Lesner's you know, went to went to University of Soda, and he's got the roots here. I was. I was there for his
first w w E show. I sat about three chairs from him at the first show where he was introduced to the crowd as a new developmental signee. And then I was there for uh, probably his first wrestling match in Minneapolis. Then I was there for his first Viking game and only Viking game.
And then I was there for his first USC fight against uh crazy horse or no Frank mir No no, his first uh uh his first Minneapolis mm A fight where he not not uh crazors over and backflipped him with the uh he he'th carrying up and then uh so I was there for that actually in media role covering that at Target Center. And so it's like it's I've kind of like just been able to be there for various big moments in his career,
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VIP mobile site. See you in the Paradise Lesler or the world title makes some sense, And that's the question that I had cute here was what was your reaction when you first heard that they had John Cena against del Rio at this paper you're putting aside how quickly Seena's coming back? What did that tell you? What do you imagine the scenario was or the rationale was for bringing
Sena back and having him go after the world title. Really without explanation, it's just something that Vicky did and no one really brings it up since. To be honest, I hadn't really paid enough attention to know what his timetable was, so you know, I left PRIs for another I was fast blaying through the show, and I just saw that he actually even probably read it on your website when it was like a in one of the spoilers or something, but I don't remember, but I just remember going, oh, okay.
I figured they're bringing him back, and they need to put him in the most high profile match possible. They obviously can't do it with the ww title, so that was second best. And then you know, and kind of seeing how they're building it with them showing how he's kind of beating the odds and coming back sooner than later. To me, that just seems like they're either and I wouldn't be surprised. They're either building him again as Superman and okay, this guy defies the odds, this guy is not human.
Look at him. We've you know, he's the greatest thing ever. Or they're they're setting up a story to which his career may be put in jeopardy because he came back too soon. And and if you think about you know, again, like it's kind of like with a conspiracy theory, you can find ways to continue to believe if you if you want to find what you're looking for, and if you think about it, if you're going to go that route, because they they did the freeline wise it is his elbow,
correct, that's the problem, right? Yeah? Well that and uh uh and the the trip or the why am I drawing a blank on it? The hice his arm? Correct, it was a but not just the elbow. Okay, so you have him come back, Well, what does what does del Rio do? He's got the arm bart, you know, and and that could I don't know how I remember when del Reel first did it. They got over the fact that it like could hurt his shoulder or something, which I mean, it's it's gonna dislocate his elbow. But you know,
and maybe that's all. Maybe this is all part of it to to maybe even build del Rio, you know, and and you know, because maybe they want del Rio versus Brian as the next you know, WWE title story. All things that we speculate on, But I don't know. I
don't really have an opinion except thinking there's there's two possibilities. One they put the title on him, and now they've got this title, and like you said, if it is less Ner versus Seen, okay, now we have a title on the line for it, or maybe something that I thought was really good, because I like, they need to get rid of that title there. It makes no sense. How do you have two world champions?
Can't have two best So I feel like if they put it on him and they wanted to go to Mania, it's a great way to have Undertaker versus sena streak versus title like your reader sent in as a as an option, and have Undertaker win, retire with the title, and retire the title. And now you got that out of the way and now you have one world champion, and you've got the secondary titles, which there should only be one, but you can kind of clean that up. So maybe they're going that
way. Maybe they're going with the Sena story that leads to another, you know, return Royal Rubbles surprise, he wonted, but his prayers on the line health wise, not necessarily as a as a stipulation at at WrestleMania and he's coming back and oh, my gosh, he's gonna wrestle brock Lessner with the fact that he's not one hundred percent my god, like, we could see the end of John Sena at WrestleMania. So who knows where they're going
with it, and it might not be either of them. They might just go, huh, let's have them come back and carry the world every week title. Will figure it out earlier. I think they are nervous enough about drawing a million buys that they're going to leave their options open. I mean, I think they have a course set by this point. That's the A
plan, you know, that's the A plan. Yeah, but it's but I would say there's some nimbleness flexibility to it at this point, depending on some factors that come into play besides injuries, just better ideas or a celebrity type thing they're going after that might cause you know, a plant, a changing plan. Sure, they could be workin trying to get a celebrity now,
and you know, let's say the plan again. I'm gonna throw this name out there because it seems to be the name that's always involved at WW and I can only hope that they don't go with this, but let's just say it's Shack, and they they might be going, Okay, let's just tentatively if we get them, it will be Shack versus Ziggler or another heel, and they kind of have that on the board and they're going, all right, we're hoping towards to get towards that, and if it doesn't happen,
we'll figure it out with Ziggler later and then obviously it'd have to be a bigger name. But yeah, there's things like that that that may not be set in stone because they need to actually get the guy involved. But I can probably tell you that if it comes to seen a Listener, Undertaker, the WWE title, and you know, any other very important aid list names, those matches are already being set up to be billed, like you said, the A plan, and barring a huge injury, those matches are
probably going to stay in place. Yeah, let me go back to Dave because I think he's still on hold and we got through two of his three questions. Dave, if you're still there and you still have a third question, go for it. Yeah, I'm still here. Actually, you guys kind of we're talking that for a little bit of kind of segue into my next question. The Wrestling Observer reported earlier this week that Undertaker will be facing
Brock Plesner Wresselmania. I'm not gonna ask you guys to speculate on whether that match will actually happened, but do you think that if it, do you think that would be the biggest money match for the Undertaker at Wressellmania. I think so one. I think it's always been regarded that way, John, I mean, I think I think Undertaker Lesner feels like and it's a reliable report, I mean, so, I mean, we're far enough out, but not so far out that I wouldn't say that that isn't the A plan.
And Lesner, it seems John like the biggest threat to the streak that you could create storyline wise. Plus of course you have you know, they're crossing paths at the UC event, and you have Undertaker in corporat submission holds into a style, and you have Lesner obviously having that skill set. I just think it's a really good go to match other than the other option,
which I think was considered as of recently, which is Undertaker. John Cena is always a card they can play because it's been It's It's just it's a match that I think would feel very fresh and feel very monumental. Again, I can agree with you and at the same time disagree with you in that
Lessner versus Undertaker as their their best bet. I do believe that that's a valid point, But I think that Sena versus Undertaker is their best bet because I feel this might be hard to explain because I can't think of the words yet on how I want to do it, so it may come out and make zero sense. But I feel like in the WWE world, Sena versus Undertaker is the biggest match. Now. I think that you have that aspect of going, oh my gosh, you've got brock Lessner, this monster,
this UFC fighter, and he's going to take on the Undertaker. I feel like that's not the way that brock Lessner has really looked at inside the WWE world, because I don't think that he's necessarily been and I haven't seen every single one of his pay per view matches, but I just remember when he first came back and he lost to Sena, and I don't think that he's been presented on on television as this guy who you know, is as a
threat really to anybody or anyone's career. I mean, I feel like if they brought him in and said we're gonna eventually, maybe one year from now, we're going you versus Undertaker, I feel like it should have been built, as you know, just if he's only going to be here every few months, build this guy to destroy everybody without hurting the talent that you have to sell every single week. But in a way they can go Okay,
no one's been able to stop him. Now he's going after the Streak, but I think that in the world of the WWE, people will go okay, yeah, and he's a threat to the Streak, but it's just gonna make Undertaker look better when he beats him. Now, when you put Sina in there, I think that the WWE world and the people inside of it will go, there's no way Sena's losing this match, you know, and how would they get out of it. You're gonna lose to the Undertaker.
So I think that you get those people to go. I gotta see. I just got to see what's gonna happen. Plus, I also feel like, you know, every year, it gets closer and closer and closer with the Undertaker maybe not being able to go right, And I think that eventually, I don't think w wants to make the mistake of missing out on that match. Now. I know we've seen Sena versus the Undertaker before, but it never never at the height that they are both at now, and I
feel like they don't want him doubt on that. And hey, they might go to Undertaker and say, realistically, how many of these do you have left? And he might go, listen, I can give you three more. All right, Well let's not go to that SNA one just yet. But uh right, I think I think that depending on you know, and I wouldn't even want to take that chance with the Undertaker. I'm going Look, this is WrestleMania thirty with the two guys on the roster, and think
of it this way. Wait, if they go and help me with an answer to this, if they go Brock versus Undertaker, you can't go Sena Rock. Realistically, who does Sina have to work with that feels like WrestleMania. It has to then be him an Orton WWE title. I would think the only other option to be seen at Triple H. If Triple Ah, yeah, I mean you know Triple H has made that, you know, on Monday made the speech. You know, if I if I can wrestle, I can still go, but I'm not going to do it against a
B plus wrestlore. I'm going to do it against a star, which, by the way, I love, you know Triple H. Kind of that. I talk about his tunnel vision, like when he's involved in something, all he sees is how things affect him and he doesn't really look at peripheral damage. And Randy Orton, he's going to be headlining Wrestlemedia. He's probably going to be w W champion between now and WrestleMania at some point unless Daniel Brian wins on Sunday and holds the belt until Mania, which I would put
money against. The notion that Triple H is standing next to Randy Orton, Well he tells Daniel Brian, You're not worth my time. I just when the paper have you made? Event is Randy against Brian. I thought was kind of a slap of the face to Randy, Like, yeah, Randy, you know you're you're x w to be champion your might. You're probably gonna be championed on Sunday if you beat Daniel Bryan. Uh. But you know the guy who I wouldn't bother wrestling is giving you tough fights and has
beating you basically friends, Right, I'm both that you guys. Yeah yeah, but but by the pay per of you on Sunday fans. But just remember I'm a bigger deal than anybody, right, Yeah, you're not gonna get me. You're not going to get the big star, but you'll get these guys, two guys that you know. I mean, I I couldn't be bothered to wrestle Daniel Bryan, But Danie Brien's gonna give Randy you aren't
a tough tough fight on Sunday, So buy it. Everybody spends sixty five bucks Yeah, it's just you know, it's almost kind of comical with Triple H. How and he's and I've I've said this on my vip Keller hotline. He's really smart, Like he's a really smart guy. He understands a lot about wrestling, but there are these almost comically absurd, uh kind of insecurity ego driven uh lapses in his judgment when it comes to anything that he's
involved in on the air. And that's just another example, you know, one of the smaller ones, but still it's kind of funny. Thanks for downloading today's show. Take it to the next level with a VIP membership. Get shows like this, the Way Keller Prosing Podcast, Weaykeller Prosing Post Show, and the PW Torch daily casts on our PW Torch VIP podcast feed with
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thing? Oh yeah, BBD a Triple H apologist here. Yeah. No, I don't want to say I worked closely with them, because I didn't. But you know, I worked with and talked with Triple H. You know what was during my time there, And you know, I truly feel that he does get a bad rep for, you know, holding guys down. And again, maybe he does it, but I can honestly tell you for the almost two years that I was there, I never saw him frey anybody or or stop a guy from getting a push now, you know,
and everybody was guilty, but there may have been a guy. So let's say Wade, we're thinking about pushing you, and he might sit there and go, guys, I just I don't know why we're pushing Wade when you know, I think John brings this to the table, and I think that he would be you know, more credible or more reliable or he's got this going form and I don't think, you know, and if and if we push Wade, eventually he's gonna go against Sena and man I just don't see
it, but I can see John versus Sena and and but everybody did that. And that's the worst is what I saw with Triple H. And you know, in King of going okay, well, did that line maybe means something like I One thing that I did learn there is like sometimes you watch something you go, God, why do we do that? And then you find out from Vince you know, listen, guys, yeah, that that may have been said, but here's where we're going with it. And maybe
Triple H said that to Brian to establish you're not on my level. I wouldn't waste my time with you because it is going to go to a Triple H Daniel Brian where now you go, Wow, Daniel Brian is now on Triple H's level. And you did it fairly easily, like you built Brian to be an a plus player because that's the way Triple H is presented. You know, one of the greatest of all time, if not one of
the biggest names ever in the way that he presents himself on TV. And all of a sudden, he's going, I want to fight you, Daniel Brian. Now your fan base is going, oh wow. Now you know I think you lose that if you're gonna wait till WrestleMania, you can't go back and go, hey, remember six months ago I told you I wouldn't
wrestle you, so you they might have to go to that quick. You know, maybe if Warton goes over this pay per view, maybe Brian can get his hands on Triple H and they go to that match, and then it makes sense. So but then again, hey, you know, there's been more people than me said bad things about Triple H. So maybe I'm wrong, but I personally never thought and if anything, I saw him try
to build guys more than he tore anybody down. And the ironic part about people who think that I have been unduly critical of Triple H since since Daniel Brian's celebration after he won the title at SummerSlam, if you listen, if you go back and listen to the Keller Hotline and read my writings in the Pros and Torch newsletter and editoral, you'll actually see me being the guy who defended Triple H against the conventional wisdom that he held everybody down. Because I
think time has proven him right about Rob ban Dam. I mean, Rob van Dam just he wasn't going to be the face of the company. He had attitude issues, he was nonchalant, he was you know, he wasn't. He just wasn't a guy who brought a level of dedication to the business that WWE has learned through experience a top guy needs to have. And RVD established that from his first moment as an ECW guy backstage, just acting like he was too cool for school, and they're just all kinds of it.
I think he was right about him. I think that there's other guys that he said aren't really even and I'm in the minority here, but I don't think Chris Jericho was ever a guy that you could just build the whole, the whole company round in the brand around. I just don't think he was quite at that level. And I think Hunter was right about that. I think he takes on fair heat about it. Edge. I think he's right about Edge. I mean he said it on Monday and his promo he mentioned
those three specifically. Robind Am, Jericho and Edge are three guys who, if they had been the face of the company, we'd be owned by, we'd be working for Ted Turner right now. A bit of an exaggeration in a caricature for drama, But I don't think I think John Cena is definitely better than Edge when it comes to being a face of the company guy. And I'm not I'm a fan of Edge, but you know he's not.
There's certain things about him that aren't there so I think. But my issue with Triple H is once he makes that assertion, once he makes that conclusion, I think he works a little harder than he should to prove himself right instead of trying to make trying to get the best out of those people that he sees flaws in so that maybe he can be proven wrong or at least get the most out of Rob Bandam. And I think most people look at
vdswwe career and go Maybe people are willing to admit yeah. And you know, the more I learned about RVD and the more I see him, I kind of get where Triple AH is coming from. But I think they could have worked a little harder to get more out of him without seeming like they were just like it was painful to push him. Ever, and that's where I think there's a middle ground with Triple H and sometimes his right opinions.
He tries too hard to prove that he's absolutely right. Well, you know, but here's the thing too, is you're never gonna have whether it's a district man, whether it was Eric Bischoff, whether it was Vern Gania, whether you know, Paul Hayman, whoever was in charge of creating the top guys, everybody has been wrong, and everybody has had an opinion. It was Vince who said Hogan's the guy, and maybe at one point someone came to him and said, no, the guy should be fill in the blank.
And he then had to make a decision and he went with I believe this guy is the guy and this guy isn't. And I feel like if the Internet was around back then maybe we would have seen that more with people.
But it's like that with everything. I mean, you can have two guys off the street, me and you can sit down on the couch and we can watch a baseball game and I can say Barry Bonds is the greatest player of all time, or we could I'm sorry, we could even just watch it today and I can say, hey, I think the best player in baseball is Mike Trout and you can go no, no, no, no, no, here's why Mike Trout is not the best player in baseball,
and this is why Miguel Cabrera is the best player in baseball. And we have our arguments, and if we were in charge, I would sit there and I'd go, I want to push Trout or whoever the the I want to push Daniel Brian. And we've got, you know, Wade Keller from the other side of the table that goes, no, no, no, here's why we shouldn't push Daniel Brian. Here's why we should push Randy
Horton is the guy. So you know, it's you're not always going to be right, but people tend to no matter who you are, Triple H or anybody. You have an opinion of something, you're going to showcase all the reasons why you were right. And I don't think that Triple H fits there and goes, look, I don't think Daniel Brian's the guy, or Rob van Dam's the guy. I think that he and Vince have been smart enough to go listen, we may not believe that Daniel Brian is the guy,
but he's the best we got right now. So we need to make sure that we do what we need to do to get him over and they truly are trying that, and whether it's failing or not, they're not going out there to bury him. But they're also probably going to be sure that they don't go out there and make him put too much into him because maybe they feel he's not the guy. He could be a great role player, but we need to be sure that we don't tell everyone we're going all in
on him, because that could also be a mistake if they're wrong. Right, yep, yep, no, well put, well put. Do you remember when Hulk Hogan shocked the world and formed the New World Order? Or when Stone called Steve Austin passed down on the Sharpshooter to break the hit Man heart. I'm Torch contributor Frank Pettianni, and I've reviewed these shows and many
more for my exclusive VIP podcast, Pro Wrestling Than and Now. Together with a rotating chair of co hosts, we go back ten, twenty, even thirty years, review pay per views from top to bottom, talk about where the wrestlers were at the time, and compare what took place then to what is taking place now. You get exclusive access to these and other podcasts as part of your PW Torch VIP membership, which is compatible with the Apple podcast
app. Visit pwtorch dot com slash go vip for details and sign up for all Right, let's let's try Fight seven. It's been out whole a long time, and get on a call date. By the way, thanks for your calling, your questions, good topics, Fight seven. Oh please state your name and where you're from. Hey wait, it's Larry from Pennsylvania. Hey Larry, what have you got for John today? Hey? John, thanks for coming on the show. By the way, I got a real
quick question and I'll just hang up there and listen later. For example, when when cm poncour John Cenar Rock come out for the beginning of Raw, how much is that opening segment when they come on to mic, how much has that ad lived or scripted? Like do you have that all written up for them? And if you do, when did they get that? Thanks? Guys? You bet? Thanks? Yeah, good question. It depends, It depends on who it is, and it depends on you know,
the night. And you know there's times that we've had a raw written on Friday, pitched written off on by Vince show up Monday. Slight changes, I mean, very slight changes, change this to this, this to this, let's go and then essentially that let's say seton one is like you said, a CM punk promo, some Punk. We'll get that promo probably minutes after the production meeting, which could be let's say, let's say typically maybe
three o'clock, so he's got three hours to work on that. Then there's times that we show up to Rob and we go on the production meeting and we walk out of it an hour before the show, even sometimes forty five minutes before the show, with a whole new show, and I gotta run and find see them Punk and go here it is. But Punk was also somebody who would take take what you wrote for him and go, I see what you want me to do. Now, I'm gonna do it how I
do it. And so he'll come back to you and he'll go, here's what I have. And then obviously you got to get that approved through Vincent. I don't know how it all goes down, now, I know that since I've been there, I know that they they went from like fully scripted to bullet points. Who knows what they're doing now? Maybe nothing, but you know, so see them Punk. We'll rewrite and saying, listen, see them Punk is saying this, You're not see them Punk. I'm gonna
say it like CM Punk. But I'm gonna follow what it is you want me to get over. Here you go. I can take it to Vince Vince just like this. Yeah, go back to punk. Here you go Punk. And then Punk goes cool going and I already know to me, I'm gonna go out there and do it. And then there's you know, there's people where let's say, if I was working with Miz, I'm literally gonna I'm gonna leave the production meeting. I'm gonna go MS. Let's sit down. They want us to get over the fact that you know this,
this, this, and this. So me and you let's come up with a very miss promo. I really wanted like to miss to be different when I was working with him, and so we would sit down and he'd throw an idea at me, and I go, man, that's good, Okay, let's write Okay, now how about this? Oh man, Okay, let's go and then we would write it together and then now you know, maybe that took a half hour, and so now he's got two hours to
get that go out there and he's reading pretty much. I have that piece of paper write in front of me and Vince can have it, and we're sitting next to each other and he's literally not missing a single letter of a word of what he's saying. And then you've got John Cena, where with Sina sometimes it would be hey, John, let's go write this, and he basically, you know, I could throw him an idea, eh,
and it doesn't matter what I say. If Sina wants something down, you write it down, and then you go to Vince and you can go, hey, hey, Sena, this is Sena's promo. Oh okay, yeah, go ahead, or if sometimes if if he didn't like it, you'd Seena in there and Tina would go, hey, I want to say this, Okay, you're gonna say it, and then Sena goes out kind of says his own thing. But you know, he would have the bullet points of what you wrote with him. So it all depends on who it is,
and it depends on what they're doing. Now. I don't know if it's bullet points, and I don't know if it's ad lib, but I can tell you at the time when I was there, we had to stay pretty close to what we wrote down, only because it had to get approved through Vince. And if a guy went out there and did something completely different, it's on me. So I got to make sure I know what they're
saying when they're going out in different scenario for different guys. I think I gave a couple examples of, you know, each case, it's fair to say, John, if you're a newer guy given a longer promo, and generally the long promo segments are for guys who have earned trust. They're in
money matches, they're not just filler and all that. But the newer and younger and less experienced the guy, the higher the expectations are that they spend the time necessary to hit the points exactly as word for word as possible.
And then if you move up the card you're saying, John Cena has certainly more liberty to stray from the prescribe even bullet point order, and certainly word for word, Yeah you know, it's it's more so, Yes, yes, you're right, But I can also add that it's also more so earning Vince's trust. I know that we got miss uh to the point. I remember I walked in with with Mis one day and I said, I haven't
missus promo. And a lot of times I'd like to take the guy in with me if if they wanted to, if they didn't define, I'll go, I'll go cut the promo. But sometimes I almost want Vince see the promo. Then he gets a better idea. So I remember I would take Mis with me. And then we walked into his office one day and I said, hey, I got I got the miss promo. I got Miss here he'd like to to give it to you, and he just said, don't don't need to hear it. I trust him. Okay, he's he's
earned my trust. Just just go. I trust you guys. Whatever you have. You guys are good. Do guys sometimes? And this gets back to our original callers question and expanding on a little bit. Do some guys spend a hours memorizing word for word and other guys can read it once or twice and pretty much have it down, Like, did you notice a different level of studying that it's necessary depending on how experienced or how good people's memories
are. Yeah, you know, my memory is not that great, so I can't really get these specific names, but I could tell you that there'd be times where I'd walk up to someone and you know, I had like my core guys that I would probably work with on on a weekly basis, and then there'd be sometimes I'd get a guy that I'd never had written with before, and so they'd go, hey, you know you've got and again, I'm not using this guy because I don't know if this was a specific
guy, but let's just say they got, hey, you got a Mark Henry today. So I may go up to Mark Henry with you know, two paragraphs of a promo and walk up to him and he might take it, read it right in front of me and go cool, god it see you, and then he's whatever he was doing with it. Maybe he went and you know, you'd see him go over his match the entire time, and you're sitting there nervous, going, oh my gosh, I hope he knows this thing. And he'd go out there and you never saw him read
it a second time. But or he'd come up to you, like right before, I'd be waiting in gorilla position the segment before, and then you see Mark Henry walk up and he's like, hey, let me see that promo again, he'd look at it the second time and go, Okay, cool, I got it, and he'd go out there and do it. And again, Mark Henry is not the guy I'm referring to, but guys like that. Then you'd have guys where I'd give it to someone again say it's dull good or something, and I walk up to him, I go,
here it is. And most of these guys, like I wanted to really sit down with them and write it with them, because if they don't like or believe what they're saying, and if they feel like their character wouldn't say or do something, they're not going to go out there and cut a good promo. They have to believe what it is. It's rottn down. So I always wanted it to be from that person's perspective. So I always
wanted to sit down with a guy. But like, I'd walk up with a guy and let's just say we write the drum and then the whole night. If they're in like seg eight, which is you know, towards the end of the show or was when it was two hours, you'd see that guy literally with that paper, pacing back and forth all night long, and you okay, I mean, you feel good about it because you know that's
really working with it. So it's it's it's different for each guy. And I think a lot of times, you know, like even with someone like Sena'd be like, Hey, Sina, you want to you want to sit down and write something. What is it that I need to get over? Well, you need to get over that last week Shane has put you down and then this and that blah blah blah. And he'd be like, cool, I got it. I'll go out there and do it. And then
he just go out there and just say whatever he wanted to say. Let's take one more call here before we moved to the VP after show with our remaining minutes with John Erico two one nine, Please state your name and where you're from. All right, this is bikes from Indiana. Hey, Mike, good hear for you. What have you got for John today? Quick question? And I hopefully didn't cover this earlier. I just jumped just started
listening a little while ago Wrestle Many Authority. There's there's been some rumors at Hawk Hogan my return to the w w E. Do you guys think there's a place for Hogan to wrestle on the card. Yeah, we haven't talked for sure. Yeah, we haven't covered that yet, Mike, So good topic, John. I mean, it seems like Hulk Hogan is leaning towards
or it's more likely I guess I should put it staying in TNA. But your your thoughts on the whole Hulk Cogan possibility of showing up Atresselmania thirty if you were healthy enough, is there even a match out there that that makes sense as they're up if Hogan were healthy enough to make it through you know, the bare bones match? Do you do you do a dream match with Hogan in some one of the bigger names on who are available and on the
roster right now. I mean maybe on paper it would look good to see Hull Hogan versus John Cena or Hull Cogan versus you know, another big name, but I don't like, you know, if something like this were to come up and we had the possibility of hey, guys, there's a possibility that we may have Hull Cogan at WrestleMania thirty. Get in your ideas,
you know. If I had to come up with five or six ideas for him, Yeah, one of them would be a match, But I feel like if I'm big as Hull Cogan fan, maybe ever I love the guy. He's the reason why I became a wrestling fan. I made my parents take me to Venice Beach, California because I thought i'd run into him. Like I I was the biggest polkamaniac. So it's not coming from someone who's not a fan of his. But I don't know if i'd want to, And even as a fan, I wouldn't order the pay per view to see
him in a match again. On paper, that'd be cool to go Wow Sina versus Hull Cogan, but in execution, I don't think that I would like it. I would probably come up with some segments where it would be
somewhere he's got and it's something you got to promote too. You can't just say and apparents by whole Cogan. It'd be a segment where you can promote that he'd be involved in something and I'd have some sort of physicality where you know, maybe it's del Rio and not him specifically, but just throwing out a heel you know gets involved with him in there's physicality and you can get
the big Hogan moves. You know, you can have del Rio come out and drop them and then he hulks up and then hits them and then drop them and big boot and leg drop and then you get that, you get that that cool uh hul Cogan moment. But I don't necessarily know that I'd want to see him in a match. But again, it really does come to what sells the pay per view, and it's gonna be probably what's put
down on paper. So maybe it would benefit them to say it's gonna be Hull Cogan versus this person, But even then, who really is there for him? What about? What about since their their pals going way back. If Big Show eventually turns, eventually succumbs to the pressure to get his job back and does what he feels he has to do, they somehow write that
story and you do rest. You know, WrestleMania three Hogan andre WrestleMania three zero Hogan Big Show in some sort of a spectacle match like that just comes to mind to something where fans expectations for the quality of the wrestling would be great. It would more be can Hogan survive a clubter ring of the hands of Big Show, as Dusty would put it, you'd have to really build up Big Show, and I think at this point there's enough of your audience
that knows who he is, so it might be hard. But I remember again someone on that the All Star panel question asked about a Hogan match at thirty and that literally the first thing popped in my head was that if you kind of recreated WrestleMania three. But then I thought, I just don't think Big Show's there or can even get there, And really, what is that you're going to see If Hogan can slam Big Show or just survive it. I feel if that's the case, I mean somehow have it be brock lesser.
But that just doesn't seem like, oh man, I've been waiting forever for this dream match. I think that I think realistically it have to. It just kind of needs to be seen, and I know that, and I'm a big proponent of it. Where it's almost like, oh man, you got Hogan, use a guy you're trying to build, But I don't think you could with Hogan. Yeah, Like I think with Hogan you would almost to avoid it seeming like it's not a big deal that he's back.
You'd almost need it to be against one of the top four guys. I just wonder if Hogan came back and said, I used to run this place, Triple Ah, I used to be the face of this company. I recognize the face of the company, and I'm sick of what you've said about Daniel Brian and blah blah blah blah blah. I'm here, you know,
and that ends up being Triple H Hogan. I think Triple h could say I think, you know, Triple Sho think highly enough of himself that he could, you know, work magic around Hogan and take some bumps and you know, be in a legendary match at Wresselmanedia thirty That comes to mind. Also, longing for some nostalgia, or maybe you want to learn some wrestling history, don't miss the Nineties Pass cast Every Friday on the PW Torch Daily
Cast feed. Alex and Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by taking you through the Torch issue from that very week. Follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the Nineties Pass cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast feed. I mean, but okay, to add the band midway. Would would you rather see him in the match?
No? No, I don't think Hogan should wrestle. I'm trying to take I'm trying to take Mike's question and go if he were available to wrestle, if he were healthy enough, truly healthy enough, what would you do? I think, at his age and everything, I think he's more in the unlikelyhood that a deal is struck and he is at Wressemania thirty. And when I say, I'm likely, just a little bit blow fifty percent until an announcement is made about a t and a renewal. I think Hogan being
at Wressemania thirty makes some sense. But I think you could actually use the Restumenia thirty as just a platform for him to, like Rock a few years ago, kind of be the host of the event and just be there to be there and add a little nostalgia to it. But I don't want to. Honestly, I don't want to see Hogan and wrestle again. I just don't. But if you're going to, I kind of think a big show
or triple h a match where there's low expectations. I just think expectations would be too high for for using John Cen in a match where Hogan just almost can do nothing. Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, all right, very good. We've got just a few minutes left with John, but we're gonna put it on the VIP after show because we've got some email questions
I want to get to. We'll do rapid fire answers for that. John, thank you so much, especially on short notice, for joining me today, and thanks as always for your contributions to the s PW Torch All Star panel. If you've enjoyed the show and you haven't heard John before, a great way to listen to all of his previous appearances, including right when he left WWE within a couple months, we did what about five was it three or five hours? John? It was, oh gosh, I don't know.
It was a long time enough long form interview a couple of years back, going on three years maybe, And it was a long form interview going just almost week by week through his stay in WWE. Really comprehensive walk through his through his run on the Creative Team and as a VIP member, you can join immediate and have access to the transcript of it word for word,
start to finish and listen to it. Plus, as a VIP member, you can instantly just click on a drop menu of VIP features and go to the pw Torch live cast and VIP after show listening and see all the interviews we've done for the past three years on this show, including roughly a half
a dozen times John's been on the show. So if you've liked the inside from John and the stories and his opinions, there's a lot more that you can listen to immediately going VIP, along with half a dozen other at least x WWE writers Vintrusso at Ferrara all the way through Matt McCarthy who was just
with WWE through a year ago. We've had a lot of different people on the show, and so if you've enjoyed this show, you absolutely will get your money's worth as a VIP member at least for one month to listen to and download all the previous appearances of various x WWE writers. On the other side of the music, a couple of rapid fire topics with John again. Thanks everybody for joining us and until Sunday Night after how I want to sell
Wade Keller signing up? All right, John, right now in the VIP after show portion of the show, I know your time is limited, so let's get right to some rapid fire email questions and begin with a question from Jerry. Is he using blog talk radios? Goodbye? And begin with a question from Jerry, who says, I was wondering if you could give insight into why we are reliving El Matadores and Mantar when these gimmicks didn't work the first time around. Uh, yeah, Well I never even thought of it
that way. I don't I don't know. Maybe they forgot that they ever did it. I mean that that sounds like a joke, but it could very well just be this m That's a good question. I don't know. Well, maybe Vince has pet ideas and when they don't work the first time, he thinks, ah, it was just the wrong time, or if I would have done this differently, and he just has to keep trying and trying until it well, you know, And sometimes I think of things just
kind of based on things that you say. So I appreciate you kind of like in the end, but I feel like with with with someone like Vince who you know, maybe in the eighties and nineties he was he was someone who was more involved and kind of got it as far as like what was going on in the world, you know, and keeping up with things in the times. And I feel like with someone like Vince, who's been and it'd be most people. So I'm not saying it about Vince because it'll probably
happen to Triple Ah one day. And you know, as much as I talk about it happening with someone else, it would probably have happened with me if I was there a certain amount of time. But eventually, you you have so much information or you have so many ideas that eventually it just kind
of you just kind of revert back and start over. And I feel like, you know, maybe Vince doesn't know kind of you know, what's I hate using the work like hip or cool, but maybe it's just like, oh, okay, we got these guys and you need to repackage them. What can we do? Well they're hispanic? Uh okay, well what if?
Uh? And and you you have what you have inside your brain and you had your knowledge and you have these this file cabinet of ideas and he's pulled from it, and eventually you go, I don't have anything new in here, and you just pull the same things. Maybe he just doesn't know another idea, and maybe when it came down to, you know, creative having to come up with ideas for them, maybe it was the same thing.
Maybe it was you know, seen this, seen this, seen this, I'm going with mind and and you know, it's almost like I kind of look at it as if you buy like a box of Crans, there's only so many colors in it, so you you continue to color or draw or whatever it may be, no matter what your you only have that limited selection of colors. And unless you decide to go, hey, I need to go out there and I need to find different pillors to add to my
collection of Krans, then you're just gonna have that. And if you don't go out there and look for it, then you're never gonna get You know, you're gonna have red, green, yellow, You're not gonna have peel. And so if you never go out and get it to try to find it or whatever it may be, then you'll just never gonna have it. And all you have is you're gonna go man all John does is color was
red, blue, and green. Well that's all I got. Yeah, all right, I'm gonna try to squeeze another question here, and you cut me off when you actually have to go, because I know you've got a conference call waiting for you. Yeah, I cannsk this question, okay, Cody says. I remember seeing, Well, I have to get through it first. Cody says, I remember seeing it's a long one. I remember seeing right back out of House Show where Dark Show pre match with hisff gimmick
and the crowd almost got into it. I also saw Johnny Curtis before find Down go to House show, and even though we didn't have any mic time, you could see the flamboyant dancer thing coming up NXTS tape. So house shows can't get away with a few things, So house shows can get away for with a few things. Does Creative use WWE house shows as a trial and error as far as newer, repackaged characters or is that an expiece thing
right now? Any angle to wrestling characters that were tried at house shows that ended up getting over more than expected or vice versa, any that went way worse than expected. Cody from Iola that it is used to try things and and kind of see how it goes over. And it's another thing too, to kind of it's it's a good way to experiment a little bit too, Like there could be talking more where you know, I write a I wouldn't say like an experimental but a that I go, hey, you know see
how well this you know? Or hey, get used to kind of talking like this or trying to get over this sort of character. Why don't you take this promo and why don't you use at the next loop of house shows? And and then he can go out there and he can go, oh, you know, I kind of get it, and I'm hearing it out and oh when I talked about this and this, this really got over.
Oh okay, good, let's use that now now know how the reaction is, or we know that you're comfortable with it, and now let's put it on TV where you could have a guy like let's just say it's right back and you go, hey, man, we're going to go with this crocodile dundee gimmick. But we want to know kind of how how well you might be able to do it, or maybe he's not comfortable with him and go listen, go out to the house shows, let's try it out. Get back to me, let me know what you feel. And if if it
works, great, let's let's do it. And if it doesn't, we can even maybe he thinks it's great and we watch it, we go, oh, we're not going to go there and then and if we don't. So it's it's great to be able to do that. It's not really used that often, but it's definitely it's definitely a way to do that. And I don't watch enough NXT to know or any of it really to even know what it is doing over there. Yeah, yeah, uh, defm for one more quick corner, you got to go. If it's a quick one,
Sure it is a quick one, if you remember. Just wants to know if the I'll paraphrase, if the uh gimmick pay per view schedule like we have this Sunday helps create guidelines for you to write stories or gets in the way of telling the stories at the pace that you'd prefer, gets in the way. I think, so, yeah, thank you for explanation that you just start writing around the gimmick pay per views as as opposed to writing stories. And I think that you know the gimmick mess is and you can
even extend the story. I think we just lost John as he was moving his way to his next appointment, but we got the general sense of the answer there. I don't know John, if you can still hear me, but we can't hear you. But he had a conference call at the top of the hour, and we are at the top of the hour. So thanks to John Pimerini for joining me today. Thanks to all the VPP members
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