INTERVIEW CLASSIC: Ex-WWE Creative Matt McCarthy talks AEW vs. NXT, Vince McMahon's methods, WWE Clash line-up, more

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to certain storylines. We also brought up mail Bay questions and look to head to the eightw versus NXT Battle, the Impact Wrestling News, and also with Matt, we go to fun places, references, analogies to Watchmen, The Simpsons, Breaking Bad,

Nicholas Cage and Dave Chappelle. Real fun interview, Always a fun conversation with ex WW creative team member Matt McCarthy, and this one originally live streamed on September thirteenth, twenty nineteen, five years ago this week and it is today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast five years ago Flashback Interview Classic again for Saturday, September fourteenth, twenty twenty four. Here we go, all right, Matt McCarthy, Clash a Champions. First question, what

are you most looking forward to? What match are you most anticipating, either because it'll be a good match or you're just curious to see how it plays out?

and I was his hair is much shorter. He takes some laughs to the head like that are unnecessary, and uh, you know so, I mean the day of open unprotected chair shots are gone. But then you get like somebody like Randy who gets hit in the back of the head and he's I mean, that's that's Randy's problem area is his shoulders, his neck and his head. Yuck. But h but that.

love KOFE. But when I first saw that image, I was it struck me as humorous because it didn't feel like, oh, here's the night I was made. It felt like, oh, here's that last time that they almost pushed me. But once Randy got blasted in the back of the head, which is the worst thing that can happen to anybody. I suddenly saw an image of Koffee watching that footage in a frame picture backstage somewhere, and he's like, oh, yeah,

that's the night that I met. It all ended for me, you know, because the maybe not so much anymore, but it's you know, oh you hurt, Randy, You're out of a job type of thing. But so hopefully that match comes off that could be really good.

of the line pay per view title for WWE. Uh, but are you are you surprised that KOFE is getting this run with the title and what in your experience and knowledge worked either for or against it. I think you touched on some of it, but what do you, what do you think of the fact that he's there, how he's doing in the odds of it happening.

before and after. You know, the word surprise might might might not be the best from my perspective, but it shouldn't have taken as long. But now that we're here,

it's great. I don't feel like they pulled the trigger on him because in in my opinion, in my you know, point of view on on booking Kofee, they should have turned him heal because it was when when the New Day was healed, I was what was what was really surprising to me was how good Kofe is at being a heel, being that you know, jovial, having a good time, but kind of rubbing my face, you know, rubbing my nose and that type of thing. And I think that

that would elevate him. Him still being part of a trio. Doesn't feel like they've pulled the trigger on him, you know, him still throwing pancakes to people while it's entertaining. I'm like, it doesn't. All he is is he's still that same guy but with a belt, whereas if he really is going to be like a champion, like and it's such an easy story to tell, you know, of like because I feel like the New Day is a little stand anyway,

I think they happened for a while. You can still have Xavier and big Eat together as that you know, you know, very entertaining baby face combo. But it's such an easy story to tell of, Like, you know, the belt goes to Kofe's head that he you know, is better than them, that he doesn't and you can still plug him into a program with Randy because Randy is

Randy's Randy. Whether he's a baby face or a heel, you know, I mean, it's it's he's one of those, he's almost he's like a big show of like you know, the I mean, not the level of flip flopping they do with the big show, but it's just kind of I don't know, Randy's just kind of there. Yeah, I mean, it's just he is that thing of like, you know, here he is, he's Randy and he's upset again, or

he's you know, beating somebody up. But yeah, it's it's it's they almost On the one hand, they've they've gone all the way with Kofe, but I think that they could take it further.

And I think that's true with fans right now. But I think the risk reward is in favor of a heel turn. Now, I think he can be just fine as a baby face. I'm not against him staying face. But when you're kind of calculating, should we do it, would it be a surprise?

weak on that heel side. So I'm intrigued by that, you know, I mean, there's a whole whole array of possibilities. Do you kind of agree with that calculation approach?

eight when they did the tournament title was vacant. Stone Cold wasn't on TV, and Rock had been a heel that whole summer and into the fall, but like a fun heel, like a cool heel that the the people were starting to gravitate towards and starting to come around on, you know, kind of like Jericho in that exact same

time period. And when it came down to and it was it was one of the most well booked pay per views I think that they ever did at WWF where it was you know, it finally came down to Mankind's and the Rock for the belt and then it finally everything made sense all at once. And mcfoley wasn't

the McMahon's choice. Rock was, you know, the McMahon's choice, and Rock was hot going to that, and like he was like, you know, like I said, like Stone Cold wasn't on TV at that point, and Rock was kind of slipping into that spot of like, oh, here's you know, the young, hot baby face and then immediately they turn him heel and you already had the built in story of you know, the fans booed me die, Rocky Die.

Now the Rocks a millionaire. He's the ww of Champ and he's still that same character and was doing even better stuff. Was even more effective here. I mean, like Kofi, it's it's it's even simpler of like, you know, the fans weren't with me, you know, the McMahons weren't with me. I do this all on my own. I didn't need Xavier and Biggie. I use them and blah blah blah. You know, it's it writes itself, and.

he sees it, but settle down. It's you know, like that's that's you don't want him to sound like to me Randy on on Tuesday this week sounded too accurate, like I wanted to come back when Randy's like, well, yeah, you had that one moment ten years ago. Think of all the things I've done since that, and to me, Kovie didn't respond, the announcers didn't respond, there was no pushback.

I don't get a little off on a sidebar here, but I wanted Kofe to go, Randy, you don't think I've accomplished anything in ten years, and then rattle off all of his wins. He's had really big moments, maybe not at Randy's level, but that's sort of the issue of him being the Cinderella story that they're pushing him ass. But you don't want to heal the sound, right, is

kind of my point. No, so when Kofe goes heal, the idea would be pluck some things that have a touch of reality where fans go ah, and then they just think he's overreacting, he's being too dramatic about it.

the ads and plugs through Patreon. Full VIP membership starts at nine dollars in ninety nine cents to reach yourself to a streamlined, ad and plug free listening experience with a VIP or Patreon membership and when you say grandy, you had experiences with him, I mean, give up a little insight into what you mean. We know Randy on air is Randy, but what is behind the scenes. I mean, I've heard stories of him, many stories about him, you know, but like it's like he gets his script, he paces

back and forth, he memorizes it, he delivers it. He's got limited things he'll do in the ring. He's confident that what he does is enough and sufficient and good. Tell me if you think that's sort of right, and then add some color to that.

they've ever had since he's been around. But you know he's also Randy is uh there to He's at work and when it's time to clock out, he's like anybody else at their job, he's excited to go home, you know. I mean Randy is uh, you know, it's you can love your job and still be like when's the day going to be over? And he does have a lot of that attitude, you know, off camera, but you know, I mean it's just as far as on camera, I've never fully understood what the Randy Orton character is supposed

to be. I've always found it a little flat. But as far as the actual guy, I mean, he's he understands who he is, and he's uh, you know, he's Randy and he's he's sometimes he's I mean I've seen him, uh the script gets changed and it's kind of like, actually, you know what, maybe we don't need Randy this you know, this week, and he can actually take off and he's

thrilled with that. You know, there are some guys who would be you know, that would trigger some insecurity would be like, what do you mean you don't need me? Like Randy's like, great, thank you. You know He's like I don't see you, you know. So is that part of who he is or is he just secure? Like they have really made him feel secure in his job

and clearly as a viewer. You know, Randy is in no uh is no uh a danger of you know, not being utilized even when they kind of you know, I mean, he's always going to be a top star, but you know he's not. He's just hasn't always been on the top of the top. You know, he's just you know, he's never been a mid card guy, and he's never been a you know, a prelim guy. But is he kind of always been on the very top of the pecking order. No, but he still gets treated

as such. But you know, Randy's Randy's no bs, and he'll tell you exactly what he thinks. He will tell you exactly what he thinks to your experience.

kind of an ongoing thing. I would mention on the Rewatch Wrestling podcast as I was there at a time when they pulled the they kind of threw the gauntlet down and they were like, no more punt kick, because the feeling was from the higher ups. If if it looks worked, it looks kind of lousy, and if it looks real, it's because he actually did kick the person in the head, and then that's a problem. You know.

So it was one of these things where it was like, you know what, let's just he can't use it anymore. And I was there when that came down, and from that point forward, that's basically all he wanted to talk about, you know, And it became a kind of you know, oh so we can hit Paul Bear with a truck, but I can't use my punt kick. You know. It's like, oh, we can you know, I can threaten this person's life, but I can't use my punt kick. And it was just kind of like, you know, the interactions I had

with him. I think he was in a program with Kane as a matter of fact at the time, and it was just kind of like, you know, I would give him the rundown of the show, and he's like, well, X, Y and Z can happen, but I can't use my punt check. And I'm like, Randy. They talked to Hunter about it because I got I did not make the call.

He knows that, but you know, it's it's just like anybody who's who is invested in their you know, art, and is frustrated because it's it's you're basically telling someone you know that they're not good at what they're doing. You know, it's like, well, we're not going to use the punt kick because if you're not kicking the person, it looks bad. And if you are kicking them then then that's not wrestling. So I would I can appreciate

that level of frustration. You know. I was in a movie once where they took a line away from me and I and I felt it's building where I'm like, I'm not delivering this line well, and then they gave it to another actor and then I was like, you know what, like that's that's not me. But it's also it's like, you know, uh, okay, I get it. I get it, but doesn't feel good, But all right, let's move on.

Did I get all that right?

aaw and lots of other amazing things. And me and my co host Vin Tabril, we're both comedians and we're both die hard wrestling fans, and we have been watching our whole lives, and it really is that's the heart

of the show. We don't typically have guests. It's usually just me and Vince just talking and you know, and trying to celebrate pro wrestling and not just you know, talk about everything that we don't like about it, like why they do this, why they do that, and especially in this day and age that we're living in right now, we are so lucky to be wrestling fans that it's like it's it's we're wasting our time if we talk

about the stuff we didn't like. It's like there's so much out there to enjoy, and so, you know, we're always going to shows. We went to Chicago the weekend before that, we were at the j Cup Finals out here in LA and we're gonna go to PWG A Battle of Los Angeles next weekend, and you know, just

really appreciating that. I remember when we first started doing the show years ago, it's almost like be careful what you wish for, because I found like an old TV guide and I was like, you know, if you were living in a certain part of the country, all the

different wrestling that you could be watching. Like when I was a kid in the eighties, it's like, you know, you had WWF on channel nine and on your Fox affiliate or whatever on USA on Monday night, and then you watch Saturday night at six oh five pm on TBS, and then if you had cable, you could watch maybe the Van Erks on ESPN, and you know, maybe you had some other cool local thing if you were in Memphis or you know, Portland or wherever else now.

watched wrestling and I got to go upside. But yeah, man, now it's like God with the Internet and a EWS starting and now Impact is going to be starting on Access in October apparently, and it's it's there's a lot, man, and I live in Sokow, so I get to go to all these cool live shows all the time. I mean, it's almost it's almost too much. I almost missed when there was no practically no wrestling that you.

Roman reigns Eric Rowan, the who Done It? Storyline as a as a discerning viewer, I am of logic and all that stuff and discussions we've had before. What has been your range of emotions watching this this storyline also involving Daniel Bryan and the Rowan look alike, who I feel like that was a like a fever dream, like that didn't even happen because it just came at the end of an episode ever brought up again? Yeah, So anyway,

your your thoughts on this. I mean, I have somewhat facetiously called this the worst storyline in WWE history, and I can defend that, but I have to tweak the criteria a little bit in order to customize it to

it being the worst ever. But I can make that case, but I have been really frustrated by how sloppy and unprofessional, and I just think consulting this whole thing has been from the beginning, We're gonna have an attempted murder by some heel tell the storyline horribly in a completely illogical way, and then in the end, the revenge is a babyface who doesn't really talk about it much, trying to pin the shoulders to the matt for account of three to

get revenge for attempted murder. I mean, they're like, the whole premise is just flawed. It doesn't fit pro wrestling to do murder storylines. And if you're gonna do it, do it well. It'll still suck, but at least do it well. And they haven't done a wall, so I have totally loaded my question. But what have you thought of it?

don't know. Basically it it's Eric Rowan versus. Do I have interest in that match? With or without the build? No? And that's really what we're left with. Where is Daniel Brian and all this? I have no idea. I could see when this all started. I could at least see the logic of, all, right, this is they're drawing this out further than because this started before SummerSlam. That's crazy

to think of it in terms of that. And it's almost like I was like, Okay, wellther they've been drawing this out longer than it would take to get this to SummerSlam. If we're going to do Roman Rains versus Daniel Brian, now I could at least see the booking logic of Okay, we're going to draw this out. We can do some TV stuff with Roman Reigns and Eric Rowan, because there's more than one heel involved in this thing,

then they kind of I don't know. I just I've worked with Vincent Man and I've heard him say the words of oh, you got to take him for a ride. So then all of a sudden, once Buddy Murphy's involved, I'm like, all right, are we muddying the waters or are we just extending this program? Because I'm all for a long drawn out program. But the you know, there has just been such a there's no logic, you know,

and it's funny. I mean, it's it's it's you know, I've been watching so much Harley Race after he died that it was comical to me of like I forgot like in a day and age when you know, did people still believe in the product? Did they still think it was real? Maybe?

legitimate sport. If like Michael Jordan was on the TV screaming like I will pay twenty five thousand dollars to anyone that will hurt Larry Bird, so he could not participate in this basketball game, like get out like anyone, Magic Johnson, you can have all this money, just take out Larry Bird. I'm sick of Larry Bird. So this idea of like, it's not the reason I bring it up is like, it's not a brand new idea of Well, if I just take out the competition, then I will

have no competition. So it's is daniel'brien the brains behind this? Have they drawn it out too far? Like was it? Did Eric Rowan go into business for himself? Like the Rakishi thing, hitting Austin with the car and all that.

like he's like, nobody remembers that. Move on now it's you know it. There's a there's not a lot of give and take with Vince. With the audience. He feels like, well, if Vince doesn't remember something, he feels like, well, nobody remembers it or Vince has decided that he doesn't care anymore.

He's also decided that the audience doesn't care anymore. And it's like, well, we're making the audience not care by not following through on X, Y and Z, and it makes it a little more difficult as a viewer, to especially a seasoned viewer. It's not thinking, all right, well put it this way. With AW I have at LEA

or New Japan. It's probably a better example because AW doesn't have TV yet, But with New Japan, I am much more inclined to believe it's going somewhere, and I'm much more willing to say, all right, well let's see where this is going. And basically, more times than not, and I don't even know if it has been a knot, there is always payoff, and I can look back and say, oh my gosh, look at all the seeds that were planted, kind of like that you know, Rock angle from twenty

years ago leading into that Survivor series. I go back and like everything that was presented as oh wow, Rock lucked into this. Then I can look back and be like, oh wow, that was their plan all along, you know, which is that that's what.

know Edwood movies. Like I was just at I was just at a thrift store and I saw a movie with Michael Dudakov and I was like, oh my gosh, I have to buy this, not because I think Michael Dudakov is the world's best actor, but because he was in and I was like, oh, this is gonna be preposterous, you know, Like like I've been collecting Nick Cage movies. Nick Cage is a kind of a I'm digressing now, but it is it's like is he good? Is he bad?

Does he know what he's doing? And there is an instrigue there, But I just know that I'm entertained by it. With Vince McMahon, there are times when I'm like, I'm going to keep watching because I'm just fascinated to see what Vince is going to do next, you know, like where where is this going to lead us? Because when when they pulled the towel off of the old Rowan, I was on the floor and I was like, you have got to be kidding me. I'm not expecting a follow up, but if there is one, I'm on the

edge of my seat. And you know, there wasn't really much a follow up with and I wasn't expecting ones to begin with.

so then he knows it's not him. But Brian, in his mind should be thinking, nobody else knows that I hired this guy who looks like sort of like Rowan to be the culprit, So why am I Why can't I just point at the screen and go, oh, yeah, that's the guy on I took the to hood off of last week, like he instantly just gave up Rowan. And then we have the confusion over our Rowan and Brian both bad guys. Did one of them turn? Who were? Who side are we supposed to be on? I mean,

it's it's such a mess. I can't even my brain around it. It's so awful now. Writing aside, I think that Brian's been fun to watch. Brian's always fun to watch, and I thought rowand and I thought Rowan did a nice job this week on the promo. I mean, I'm I don't know what to expect from him in the ring in an elevated situation. I think everyone saw Luke Carper is a better worker between those two. I still

don't know quite where this is going. Does Roman just beat him and that's it and then we just sort of pretend never happened to move on and go to Fox or Or is this stage one in Daniel Brian being revealed as some sort of mastermind after all, and this is to build up Roman versus Brian. But in the end, I don't think this storyline has has intrigued people enough to be worth the nonsense that it didn't

have to be this bad. But even if well done, you just can't pull off murder storylines where the payoff is a wrestling match. Even a hell want to sell Brian Rowan a hell and a cell doesn't work. It's that shouldn't be how you build up fees in pro wrestlings. I mean, I say that about something subjective, but I believe that is objectively true.

by the four Horsemen. It's like, I guess, on on on paper, they could have killed him, you know, like it, but I mean it's like, but they broke his arm or whatever they did or like you know, Greg Valentine breaking Wahoo's leg. It's like that's that's how you start a program. Or you know, if we're if we're going to start it with physicality, because then it needs to end with physicality. It was just gonna start I don't know, I mean trying to take somebody out like a you can't.

with it. But otherwise, if you're a pro wrestling, if you're in the progressing business and you're creating storylines, you're vincent man. You're one of the writers. Whatever it. If the premise of all your writing isn't that everybody has gathered here, all these world class athletes to find out who the best professional wrestler is. If that's too boring for you and you think no one will want to watch it, goes into some other line of business, because

that's what you're that's the business you're in. Like, you can't be in the fast food business and be serving burgers and be in your mind constantly be thinking why would anyone eat this crap? This is killing America? Like, no, you got to go then go work in a health food industry. If you're in the progressing industry, you have I have to be invested in the idea that we can convince our audience. And I say this with no skepticism. It can be done. It absolutely has been done and

can be done and still can be done. That there's these outliner's personalities who are tremendous athletes who are incredibly entertaining to watch in these simulated combat battles, and they're doing it because calling yourself the best pro wrestler is enough. That's what we're all fighting over a chance to fight

for the championship. So we can be Rick Flair with the limousines or John Cena with the spinning belt or whatever, and like that has to be enough, and if you do that, well everything falls into place when you don't keep your eye on that and you think, well, who would care about that? It's fake? So now we're gonna do something even more fake to make up for it, and we're gonna do it poorly. You're in the wrong business. Move on to something else.

When I was a kid, it was it was so easy to get in and out of storylines with Hul Cogan or even with Stone Cold too, because it was like people wanted the belt. That was enough. Like every heel could cut a promo, even if they were in a TV feud with somebody else, they could still mention the Hulk Cogan because he was the one. Like if I beat Hulk, then it proves that I'm the best because he's got the fucking belty. You know, he's the one I want. That was the thing with the Rock.

It was like he he screwed over mankind, he screwed over the world because he wanted the belt, and I always come back to that, you know, pockage. They would show where it was like the Rock being like I'm the WWF champ, I'm a millionaire. You know, it's like, what more of that do you need? Like, you know, I'm not like, at no point was I like, you know, I can't remember. I don't think I've ever gotten behind a wrestler because somehow I had the perception of, God,

this guy makes less money than me. You know, he can't even like the Kevin Owens things like I don't know, how is he gonna send this kid.

And because you can't fathom how to plan your damn kid's education with ten years notice and all these other options that are affordable to the people in the audience paying money to see you, You're not willing to sc over Chad Gable. Don't ever claim her babyface ever again, because your character has been ruined.

oh wait, this isn't a wrestling company. This is a parody of a Wrestling Company, and once they realized that that they they suddenly became comfortable, you know, just showing up to work and punching the clock. Yeah, because it's like, I mean, talk about two guys that came from you know, just spectacular indie careers and then at least Brian broke out of it. I mean, the fact that Czarro is still kind of just you know, he's just kind of in that nebulous state that he's always been in at

WW it's a shame. But yeah, yeah, man, I mean.

viewership leading into Fox. I mean, they're gonna do better than reruns on Fridays I've been doing. They're gonna do way worse than Monday through Thursday. And Fox should know what they're getting, but they want a little better than what they're getting based on when they sign a contract,

and I get Vince's trying to prop that up. Shane mcmatagainst Chad Gable is I guess a decent stuff soude for a lives, but all the focus is on something has nothing to do with trying to get people excited about the centerpiece of their WWB network, which is a huge chunk of their revenue, the monthly pay per views, And so I just I scratched my hat at that. I would have ended the show with something SmackDown related, either the women's title or the men's title match, to

kind of hit that crescendo. So that's what people are talking about. The Shane Kevin Owen stuff shouldn't have been on the on the show because it's so bad, But if it was gonna be, it should have been seen as a third or fourth from the top issue on the show instead of well it's a McMahon's, it has to be at the top. That's how I took it.

can't wait. It might have even been leading into when they were doing Roman Versus Shane, and it was like, all of a sudden, they made me want to see Shane versus Kevin Owens, but instead on Sunday I was gonna be watching Roman Versus Shane. It's just this bizarre misdirection. Not even misdirection, because that would be intentional. It's just like they're just bad booking.

pw torch dot com. We invite that interaction, let us know what you think of what we're saying, and let us know what you want us to talk about and ask us specific questions. Collor podcast at pw torch dot com.

How much how much agency did wrestlers ever have when you were around and creative that you witnessed, Like, at what level did a wrestler get to speak up or feel comfortable going I know this has meant through a lot of layers to get to me, and it's a big deal at this time to bring up that this isn't good for my character. It doesn't make sense or I don't get it. I mean, is there just no time and your wrestlers just kind of have it beaten out of them. Your job is just do what you're told.

why would I do that? That's dumb, you know. But like a John Cena would just would more be interested in working with you and be like, Okay, well I don't see it that way, but what about this? Or like a Chris Jericho would more be like, well get up, let me sit down, and he would type up what he wanted to do. Whereas like other people who were you know, and those are all basically top guys, so

they felt comfortable doing that. Somebody like or like a cmpunk who wasn't who was getting close to being a top guy but wasn't quite there yet. When I was there, he would very much speak up and be like, why the hell would I do that?

or even like Zach Ryder. Not not as aggressive as everyone else I mentioned, but you know, they would be like they'd be like, well, I don't know, you know, because because they care, you know, yeah, but not to say he doesn't care, but like somebody like Cain, very rarely if ever, would say that doesn't make any sense.

You know, Cain was, you know, the easiest guy to work with because you would hand him something and he'd be like okay, and then he would go and memorize it, and then he would go out there and kill it. You know. I don't think I still don't think Kine gets enough credit for how well he did that character.

And I feel like he was almost one of the guys that he'd almost like a Ted Knight in Caddy Show Where, because I will argue that Ted Knight is actually the funniest person in that whole movie, and that's the movie was like Heavyweights, you know, Bill Murray, Rodney, Dangerfield, Chevy Chase, you name it. And I think Ted Knight was actually the funniest in that movie because he's so good in that movie. You forget that he's an actor

playing a character. You just assume he's that guy. I feel like Kine is kind of in that same class of like you almost take Kane for granted, you know, it would, I mean granted when you factor in Vince's booking of like, oh Kane's coming out, you're like, oh, well, here comes a big guy to squash a little guy. But in and of itself, I don't think there was a moment where we didn't buy Kane as that character. And it's such an over the top, ridiculous, you know,

supernatural character, but we still bought it. You know, it was. It's an interesting dynamic there. But you know, I remember I was there when aj Lee kind of got her push, not kind of where she got her push, when she first got paired up with Daniel Bryant, And I mean I saw the change from you know, it went from I'm sorry, wait, can I just ask you a cool question? I'm not sure about this? And you kind of have to say to her, Okay, all right, well don't worry

you're going to kill it. Just go out there and kill it, you know. Yeah, Like I remember there was that one interaction her and Natty had on TV where it was like, Okay, just go out there and just pound on her and I think she actually got in a couple of potatoes, not intentionally, but Natty I think got like a bloody lip or a bloody nose, if I remember correctly. And I remember AJ coming back through the curtain and she was just kind of like, oh

my god, is that cool? And everyone's like, you did great. And I remember kind of towards the end of the that my run there, AJ had gone from I'm sorry, can I ask you a cool question? To I don't think my character would say that, you know, and it's so, is it? You know, I'm not and she was. And let me make it clear, like she was wonderful to work with, and she was a sweetie pie. I always,

you know, enjoyed interacting with her. Heard Caitlin were two of my favorite people to work with when I was there. But it's it gets to the point of, you know, how much input are you going to have on your product? Because you you are the product. When you're a wrestler,

it's you're the commodity, you know. I remember being an interview with Elizabeth Taylor where she, you know, that's somebody who started as a child actor and she realized very early on, like, oh, there's a difference between Elizabeth Taylor the person and Elizabeth Taylor the commodity. You know, and if and if you're savvy enough, and clearly she was, she could see the difference and well, what's going to

affect the other? So, you know, I mean, I think somebody like a Big Show or Randy Orton, they were kind of more like, you know, why are you making me do something? Whereas like, you know, kind of a John Cena or or even a Jericho was Jericho is probably the best example of somebody who is like, well,

let's see what makes sense for Jericho. I mean, clearly, this is a guy who is invested in his character, in his commodity and has clearly I mean talk about because I mean it's like, on the one hand, when I bring up like, well they should break up the New Day, and it's like, well, are we leaving money on the table? The New Day's a good you know act. It's like, look no further than Chris Jericho. Chris Jericho has completely blown up and rebuilt himself how many times

over the last twenty five years. I mean, it's incredible to think of like Jericho in the summer of nineteen ninety eight. It's like, why would you change that character? It's such a hot character. Whereas it's like how many times has he reinvented himself and made it work because he cares? You know, I mean the lesser hands you could just think of like, oh, Chris Jericho, Oh the guy that wore the jacket with the lights in it. God, that was like three iterations ago. Yes, you know, why

would you stop doing the list of Jericho? It's such a hot angle, it's such a good thing. It's like, because he did it, he's done with it, and now he's moved on to something even better. Yeah, you know it's yeah, yeah, because I mean, at no point with Jericho have you stopped him and like I think he made a mistake by moving on to this new thing. It's like, no, he moved on to a new thing

and he's making it work. You know. It's it's incredible. Yeah, you know, so it's it's it's but you know, it's some people are are easier to work with than others, and some people if they are difficult to work with, but you can appreciate why they are invested because that's where it is. They're invested. It's not just that I don't feel like doing that. I want to play video games on my bus. You know, they are genuinely asking you, well, why would I do that? You know?

thoughts on We'll start with Bailey and Charlotte. People. I'm in anticipating the Bailey heel turn for a long time, anticipating that it might be good for her, because she was pretty cold from the beginning coming into the main roster, missed opportunity and in a lot of ways, maybe some of it's on her, most of it seems to be on the way she was presented, and then this awkwardness if she turns heel when she's pretty cold. But you know, with a championship I think it means a little more.

And her first match is against Charlotte, who we have been conditioned to not like respect, but she is full of herself and a bully and arrogant and all that. Not the best first opponent if you're trying to gain momentum turning heel. So that's the I don't know why that happened. Maybe it'll come maybe it'll become clear over the next few days or few weeks. But so that's my little setup for that. What do you think of the Bailey turn and the Charlotte match? What do you expect on Sunday?

feel like Charlotte can lose and be okay. But I could almost see them having Charlotte win and just, you know, kind of stifle any momentum that they might have had with Bailey going into this. I don't know. I would prefer to see Bailey win, even if it is kind of I'm not I prefer pinfalls and submissions, but this is a situation where I would not be disappointed or upset in any way if there was a kind of

a screwy DQ finish. You know, I'm not not the biggest proponent of you know, Bailey intentionally gets herself DQ type of thing to you know, lose the match, retain the title. But I feel like it could work in

this situation because it's she's a new heel. You know, we're still as a ww audience where kind of excited that she's a heel now, you know, especially somebody like Bailey, where we've it's just this weird bizarro world of like watching WWTV where I'm like, this babyface keeps getting you know, jerked around. Why doesn't they Why don't they just turn heel?

And it's like it's this, it's this backwards booking of like I want them to turn heel so they are standing up for themselves, right, No, that's what the babyfaces should be doing in the first place. You know, It's it's this, it's this bizarro land. So it's basically I want to watch Bailey go nuts and just beat the craft out of Charlotte the point where I know that I'm not going to sympathize with Charlotte. I'm going to

be excited that Bailey is snapped. But I can see in the you know, w w E vistminctmahan bubble of that that's supposed to make me sympathize with Charlotte, and it's supposed to make me think, well, Bailey's a loose cannon and she can't be trusted and she's she's over the line, out of control. Maybe there's a way to pull that off, but I don't know. I just feel like Bailey needs some I mean, basically, it's like it's kind of the Jericho thing of like, Okay, if she's

not Bailey giving hugs anymore than who is she? She needs to change her look, change her outfit, change the hair, changed the whole thing. And if she doesn't understand who she is, then me as a viewer, I'm not gonna understand who she is. And is this thing already dead in the water. I guess that remains to be seen. Certainly Sunday will be a good test for it, because if she is still just you know, side ponytail, you know, but I'm you know, mean now, part of it doesn't compute.

aren't you booing me? I've got And then you can sort of like maybe boo her in that context, as opposed to her suddenly just coming out like Craig Gania became Rambo when Sergeant Slaughter started training him, and Bailey just has this huge transformation where people like, eh, I don't know if that's her, but part of me was looking forward to seeing a transformation and seeing what she looked like when she did present herself with a completely

different attitude and edge. I think that would have more impact if she just suddenly comes out with a completely different look and people like, oh my god, that other thing was just fraudulent marketing, and now we're seeing the real her and I don't like this, and the kids are booing her and like to me, that's a gift to babyfaces fighting her more than the ironic maybe too clever by half approach.

I'm expecting the shoe to drop. You know, at no point did I buy the mister Rogers thing, right, But if if say, like Bailey was to show up on the Firefly fun House, that would kind of leave a pit in my stomach, you know, like of like, oh god, you know, like she's she's a demon now, you know, whereas I don't know, I just it just feels like she's she's a heel by association, but really she's still just this babyface fighting from underneath things. It's I mean,

it's it's so funny. It's like there's room for subtle piece and pro wrestling. But it's like with Vince McMahon booking, it's like it's also it's still pro wrestling. There should be a clear good guy and a clear bad guy, you know, and.

because that's where the emotion is. So therefore, call it what you want. But as you present these characters, it's hard to have sixty percent of the audience like some in forty nine and have that also work for the opponent,

because now the opponent's in a POSI show. What if they worked hard to get a hundred percent of people, not to like them or one hundred percent of people to like them, and now they're against an opponent where he's peeling off or she's peeling off forty to sixty percent of those fans for her character and everything's muddy.

So it because it doesn't work with nuance like it does in Breaking Bad or you know, a heavily scripted thirteen thirteen episode per season or eight episode per season type thing where there's craftsmanship in years that go into it. You kind of have to go with Babyface and Heel and the goal should be one hundred percent years. Ninety eight percent of the time it should bee hundred percent years. Is a goal for one one hundred percent boost.

on this journey. Whereas with pro wrestling, it's there's going to be a winner and a loser, so there should be a hero and a villain. You know. It's it's much less of a you know, hour sixty minute drama as it is a comic book. And with comic books there are clearly gifted creators and writers and who can tell a very nuanced, you know, multi layered story and it can get into you, well, what is good, what

is evil? What is you know? All this, but at the end of the day, it's you know the difference between Watchmen and class of Champions is at the end of Class of Champions, I'm going to see who the winner is and who the loser is. And at the end of Watchman, I'm left thinking, oh my gosh, what is right? What is wrong? Who watches the Watchman?

to be? You know, even like Pogan and Andre, It's like, yeah, but the Andre turned it worked on on one hand, it was almost forced too, because it's like I want to have an emotional investment. Sure, Andre getting paired up with Bobby Heenan, that's the worst thing he could have done, you know, you know, it's it's it's it's the But I mean, ultimately it came down to Andre was challenged for the belt. You know, it was clear that that Bobby had gotten into his head. You know, it was

it was clear that Andrea had changed. Andre wasn't Andre anymore? Do we want to even go further down the rabbit hole of like, well, how did Bobby get to Andre? The previous storyline was that Bobby was trying to get Andre banned for life, and then Andre shows up underneath the mask and he's the giant machine. Did somewhere along the way did Bobby finally get the goods on Andre?

But instead of sending Andre out the pasture and banning him for life from WWF, he starts talking with Andre and working with Andre, and then he sees I can exploit Andre and like, this is my finally, my chance to get my hands on a competitor who can win that championship. Clearly this is the guy that can beat hul Kogan and then we're off and running into the

WrestleMania three. I mean, there's nuance, there's subtlety, there's depth to it, But when it comes down to it, that's if I really want to be a hardcore Like I am so invested wrestling fan, and I'm following this storyline every single week, every single thing, back and forth. He rips off the shirt, he rips off the crucifix, Hogan's chest is bleeding like blah blah blah blah blah. But if I'm just you know, Joe Schmoe on the street,

who doesn't know anything from Adam. If you're just presented with we got Hulk Hogan fighting Andrea the Giants, it's like, well, who would win that fight? You know? The immovable object in the irresistible force. That's enough in and of itself. If we want to add color to it and add a story to it, then that's that's even better, you know. But it's it's just give me something to watch, give the promoter something to promote. That's that's enough in and

of itself. The young guy versus the established guy, all right, now I'm interested. You know, the tough guy versus the even tougher guy. Well, who would win that fight? You know, It's just it doesn't need to be more than that. It doesn't need to be you know. Well, then then they drove them out to the desert, desert, and they buried them alive. It's just like, well, now now you've lost me. Now I'm now I'm confused. At no point should a wrestling fan be confused. You know, it's it's

it's good versus evil. It's and even beyond good versus evil, it's right versus wrong. Yeah, it's the pursuit of it's the pursuit of justice. That's why it's so confusing, like watching w W E t V because I'm like, well, where where is the justice? What? What? What am I? What am I rooting for? And then you get into a place where it's like, well, if nothing matters, then

it's absolute chaos. And then I'm just gonna cheer the people you tell me to boo, and I'm gonna boo the people you tell me to share because it's it has It's like it's they have forced their audience. WWE and Vince mcgham have forced their audience into being heath Ledgers of the Joker. And now I'm just going to show up because I want to watch the world burn.

Now I'm just you know, it's it's that's that is a strange place to be in as a wrestling fan, where it could not be easier to get a wrestling fan excited. Give me something that I want to see, you know, as opposed to well, I'm going to show up and can I sneak this beach ball in? You know how much chaos can I cause as a wrestling fit? Can I chant something? You know that's going to distract. I mean, it's just it's I'm just excited for a ew because I need a mainstream alternative here in the

United States. You know, it's nice when New Japan shows up into into town and I get to go to PWG like once a month or every couple of months. But man, oh man, oh man. As far as a TV product, I mean, it's like I don't even know what channel Impact is on anymore. I mean, I guess now what they're on Access Now, we'll see, we'll see.

But I mean the first instagram like picture I saw of the full Impact roster and it says coming to Access TV, And when I zoom in, honestly, my first thought was, oh, my gosh, it is the greatest collection of wasted talent on Impact TV. Because it's just it's like so many fantastic people, both on camera and behind the scenes, and it is just they I don't know if they'll ever be able to overcome that TNA stink that had been collected over the last decade more, you know.

I mean, it's just it's it's it breaks my heart to see it, Like I need a clean slate. Aw feels like a clean slate you know, we'll see, we'll see. I'm just excited for more wrestling, and hopefully it's fantastic because everything else I've seen up until this point has been Yeah.

cool her off. They gotta pair up with Lacey Evans. Yeah, now we're gonna I mean, it's just it, Becky was so hot going into Mania, and then coming out of Mania, you get that program with Lacey and it's like, I don't know if this is the right pairing, and then of course it's just it's just perfect Vince McMahon logic. Of course, the next thing they pair up Becky with is are returning Sasha Banks? Who all right, let's turn

her heel. I love Vince's idea that you can have anybody, anybody off of team for the amount of time that Sasha Banks was off and think, oh, I can just make her a heel It's like no, They're gonna cheer her no matter what she does. And we are at a day and age, and then to pair up with Becky Lynch of all people, I'll have her turn heel on. Becky, It's like you are hurting, Becky, you already have like it's anybody else have a be God, what what is it gonna take for me to get a Bailey versus

Sasha match? You know, what what is it gonna take for me to get that program? You know, if it was Bailey versus Sasha right now, that would be hot. And then like Bailey attacking or returning Sasha, that might actually be an effective heel turn, you know, or or Sasha comes back and beats up Becky. I mean that might even be an effective heel turn, because like I'm gonna cheer Sasha because she's back, but she shows back up and then she's finally beating up her friend. I

don't know. It's just like if they just I mean, do I feel like I seen Becky versus Charlotte a million times already? Yeah? Could Becky be paired up with I don't know whoever? Anyone else on the ride? I mean, I don't know elect the Bliss. I know she's in that. You know the tag with Nikki Cross And I called it as soon as it started out.

And with with Becky and Becky and Sasha in and of itself from Bell to Bell, it's gonna be a great match as far as the logic and the storytelling going into it and coming out of it, I feel like they could be doing a better job with Becky if they just let Becky be stone cold and looked at it that way. And I don't know, it's it's it's too soon. It just feels like it's too soon for for Sasha and Becky. It's it's because it's like Sasha, for lack of a better comparison, is she kind of

like the you know, the rock. If Becky's gonna be stone cold, we could have Sasha be the rock because she's you know, she can run her mouth, she can work in the ring. And then you know, it almost feels, I don't know, it just feels like this could be next year's Mania, you know, Becky and Sasha. Instead, we've just kind of thrown it together and it's and it's

just kind of sitting there on Clasha Champions. I don't know, It's just Vince is so fixated on doing everything at once that once we rush towards something, it feels flat, and once we draw something out, it gets so convoluted that once we get there, it feels flat. Like when we finally do get to if we are even say we finally do get to Roman reigns us Is Daniel Bryan and by the time we get there, am I

gonna care anymore? You know? It doesn't need to be complicated, and I feel like the old man over complicates, but constantly I I am gonna. I'm gonna watch the match and probably enjoy it very much.

of the limousine on the way to the on the way to the TV studio. Because a wrestling show, the beauty of a wrestling show isn't in the in how much you plan ahead. It's seeing an outline come to life. And that has been taken away from wrestlers and many you know, Kevin Owens tweeted out three numbers that match up an X in terms of the number, the letter

number in the alphabet. I don't know if he was if that was a hope a wish, like, oh my god, this is awful, and I just want to get over to NXT where my character would be taken care of or it was meant to be, you know, foreshadowing what is already planned. But I mean, there's wrestlers who just want to go work for work in NXT and make a living and be happy because things had, like you said, become just too complicated and arbitrary. You know, Alexa Bliss,

is she a face or a heel? Wasn't when she, like, not that long ago, she'd have been the one making fun of Nicky Cross's looks and talking about beautiful She isn't. Now she's the one teaming with her and defending her against Mandy Rose, who's insulting Niki Cross's looks. And it's like Vince doesn't remember or think that these wrestlers have this trail of actions and traits that should logically lead

to what they do this weekend. Next week. You don't have to wait for the way Keller Pro Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of Monday night Raw and SmackDown. Each week. You can check out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show, and it will also analyze key segments and give my random

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you come up with for them? I mean, but my point is there are things that it would make sense for Bart Simpson and Homer Simpson to do, and then there are things that it makes sense for Lisa Simpson and Marge Simpson to do. And for me as a fan, what when I started losing interest in the Simpsons was when and I can pinpoint it too. There there was an episode where Marge of all the characters too, where Marge didn't feel like she was acting like Marge anymore.

And then I was like, or even right before that, when they did the whole thing with Principal Skinner, right and they did a whole episode about how it turned out that Principal Skinner wasn't actually Principal Skinner, that he was this other guy who stole Skinner's identity back in Vietnam, and then they tell this whole convoluted story for no reason other than we just got to fill up thirty minutes.

And then by the end of that episode they had taken one of the most beloved characters with a clearly defined parameter and then they just put a hat on it, and then put a hat on the hat, and then by the end of it. I was like, you know what, this is actually undone so much storyline leading up to it and now coming out of it, Why am I going to have an investment as a viewer in anything involving basically anyone. It's just it becomes a parody of itself.

And then all of a sudden, it's like I found myself flipping around the channels because I'm like, well, what what what am I? What am I watching for? Why am I supposed to? If you don't care? Why do I care? Yeah? It's I mean, it's it's it's it's the most it's the easiest principle to remember in entertainment. You know, if if you're having if you're not having a good time, why am I going to have a good time? You know, if you don't care, I don't care.

You know, I'll find somebody that does. It's it's it's like a less the Bliss that is a simple, sharp character, and it's so she's a mean girl. You know, she's a mean girl, and she's a coward and she's a manipulator. And now all of a sudden she's best friends with Nikki Cross and I have no idea why, you know, and now there's now a chimps.

okay to expect a higher standard. You shouldn't apologize and be a loyalist, a blind loyalist to your WWE tribe that you feel you belong to. You you actually deserve better, and it's okay to express that without feeling like you're being disloyal.

Like I've been in the kitchen, So now that the Hamburgers makes sense to me, I'm like, oh god, you know, it's like you go to itcause every storyline that got dropped, every joke that didn't work, every guy that stops getting a push, everything that like why why did that happen? Like what what? What? What was that supposed to be?

It all makes sense. Now I have a more complete picture, and I can appreciate the product even more now, you know, and and and and I can find entertainment in it, you know, beyond uh, simply just seeing what's on the screen, you know, being able to see behind the curtain. I was like, oh, now I've got the whole story, you know.

does it fit the mode? Is? It may be okay, but not the best thing to do. Like, where are you on that? I mean, I know I have a feeling there was some a level of apology and self self awareness behind the scenes amongst the women that maybe this is going to look make. You know, I can imagine Mandy Rose having to do this and wondering what people are gonna think of her, you know what I mean.

Even though people know it's scripted and all that, there's still that weird thing where wrestlers feel like people think they are their character on air some of the time. I don't know, So, yeah, your thoughts on it?

where Rick Flair got like a suit torn up? It was essentially you know, at its heart, that storyline is I'm good looking and you're not without saying I'm good looking and you're not, you know, whereas it can be about I'm more sophisticated, I'm better dressed, I know how to do my hair, you know, instead of just being like, you know, I'm pretty or ugly. You know, that's talk about it. It's like talk about a place where all right, maybe now we could use some nuance, Maybe now we

can use some you know, sophistication in the storytelling. But I think it's also I think what's dangerous about it is is like doing that with with the female characters is so petty, and it's so it takes it takes the women back a few steps in a few years, and it's like, you know, I mean, my god, they haven't been called you know, well, I guess they don't call them women wrestlers, but they haven't been not divas. For It's it's it took them too long to get

away from just defining them by their physical looks. That to go back to that so quickly is you know, there's just so many different stories you can tell that to just go to, oh, well, women are being catty again, it's just like it's just so it speaks. It just speaks to Vince's perception of people and women in particular. And it is so it's just lazy writing, you know basically, And I and and I believe me, I'm always on my sofucks on this. We watch wrestling is and that

is not. I'm not blaming the writers because, believe me, at no point would would would anyone on the creative team come to Vince and be like, well, she can call her fat and ugly like that type of thing. It's like that, this is this is a product of Vince McMahon. You know, I could, I could say that with one hundred percent degree of certainty.

And as a matter of fact, those are all the guys that are still there, you know, that are the higher ups in the creative team now. But I remember Brian like emphasizing to us, like, you guys need to understand, like the script that went on TV was basically the same thing that we wrote here, and that's huge. And it wasn't until the days and weeks and months went on that I was able to appreciate just how huge

it was. And he was right to put us over for that to be like, you guys don't understand, like the script that we wrote is what wound up on the air. Do you have no idea how monumental that is? Yeah, So I don't know if it I mean, in the time that I was there. I could count on one hand the amount of times that I remember, you know, Vince not O God, what is this? What is it? Sir? This is the the script that you appro approved three days ago. Okay, but never mind?

And he only told a couple of us, obviously not me in the room, but like he only told a couple of the guys been creative who then told me and a couple other people because we were been writing the scenarios on it. But he specifically he didn't want anyone else to know because he didn't want anyone to talk him out of it. So that was like a situation where it was like, this is this is what I want to do, and I don't want to hear.

So basically, instead of Vince saying, you know, listening to everyone's feedback and then being like, no, this is what we're doing, he vinced, to his credit, saw I could see myself getting talked out of this by certain people, So I'm just not going to tell those certain people, and we're just gonna barrel ahead and do this and this is this is the thing that we're going to do on the pay per view I think it was was it out of money in the bank or whatever

it was, I can't remember. The circumstance of it was raw, So it was at the actual pay review itself, but that was a situation where he's like, no, I want Brian to cash in, and this is what we're doing, and I don't want to hear about it from anyone.

But I don't know. I mean, like I'm trying to think, like like like Rock and scene of going on last I know that there was discussion of, well, we're also doing Hunter and Undertaker in a Helen of Cell. Is Ken is a championship match big enough to follow a Helena Cell because it's almost like the situation that you saw at all, like, well, this ladder match is going

to be bonkers crazy Ken just a singles match follow it. Obviously, the championship makes it higher stakes, that the first championship that they've ever crowned makes it higher stakes. But at the same time, you know, Jericho and hang In Page are not the same palaber of John Cena versus The Rock and The Rock being the biggest movie star in the world and doing his first singles match back in

years and years? You know, is that a bigger draw than Undertaker and Triple H and helenfl Clearly it was, and I was of the mindset that it was even before. I mean, they could have used guns and that Helen Is a match and it still wouldn't have meant more than The Rock coming against John Cena, you know, the Old Guard versus the New Guard. The fact that the title was on the line was what's the title even

on the line at that one. I don't even remember. No, it wasn't because because the title would have been Punk and uh in Jericho, right, Yeah, yeah, the title wasn't even involved in so even so, it was just a straight up singles.

we're doing. Yeah, And and part of part of what works with Vince is also what what doesn't work with Vince is that he loves options, and sometimes there's too many options and suddenly he you know, there's just too there's there's there's just too much going on, and then things get fall through the cracks, and then things get changed at the last men, and then suddenly nothing makes sense and then Vince's like, well, we're moving on, it doesn't matter, and it's like, wow, maybe it does. You know,

the Raiders would say that it does. Yeah, you know.

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the US champ. I mean again, it's it's, it's it's it's basically that match isn't a priority, you know, for me as a viewer or for them booking it, so that can that can actually work for them because if things, you know, I remember, like Dave Chappelle talking about when the Chappelle Show stopped being fun and then he very famously walked away from it and you know, went on sabbatical basically, but he described the Chappelle Show was fun when it felt like nobody was watching, you know, and

and I and I can appreciate that, like that it's so I think with a day Et Cedric, it's it's I could see that them pulling off something good because it's not you don't have that. I could see Vince not uh, fixating on it and wound up picking it apart and ruining it. Because there is a as as like a writer, there is a thing of like when when you start messing with something too much, it's a sweater. The whole thing can just fall apart and then there's

no way to get it back together. Like I remember reading like a h a collection of Farside cartoons where Gary Larson was like he gave some example of like this is where it started, this is where it ended, and this is He's like, I just I kept because you should go through drafts. Definitely you should rewrite, but you can hit a point where it's like, you know, pencils down, this is we're done. Now we need to move on. You can ruin something by trying to fix it.

And I feel like A j and Cedric are are flying under the radar and can maybe are are gonna exceed expectations because maybe there aren't any Yeah, I mean from I mean from Vince, you know type of thing. Yeah, so we'll see.

I mean, it's it's an interesting I mean christ I mean think about like the pairing up of it, just just on paper, just looking at it in terms of like from like a a two thy eleven or twenty twelve pair of sunglasses or even like twenty thirteen, Like just take it like five years back. Let's say, if like, if you had told me we'd be doing Shinske Knackamore versus The Miz for the icy title on a pay per view, I would have said, really, But I mean

it makes sense. It's been a fine it's been a fine build, and you know, I think that there's better things that we could be doing with Sammy's Ain. But as far as if this is the role that he's going to be in, he's certainly good at it. Yeah, but uh, you know, I mean I I knew somebody that was on the creative team that was let go earlier this year, and and with somebody that when he was done was done watching the show, and I was talking to him on the phone. I mentioned to him.

I was like, I was like, wow, you know, it's weird. I mean, Samy's Ain is now Hinton Kimore's manager. And he was just like what the reaction? And I was like, oh, yeah, man, you gotta you got to tune into the.

they've been off the last two weeks. They got time off, Like Punk just goes they got time off, yeapros and for a good minute of just like you can ask for time off, now what?

I mean, it's the most meta self parody you can imagine. And then Bobby rut it's just or Robert Rude. Excuse me, I mean it's just, uh yeah, you gotta do something with.

own fault? You know? Are they going to stop getting along during the match and then lead into their match? I don't know. It seems like a simple way to tell the story. Then you get into you know, Bobby and Dolph defending those belts, you know, because it's because it's he got two main eventors with the tag belts together. It's never you know, a bad thing. I always enjoyed that that brief run when Stone Cold and Undertaker were tag champs together, was then didn't that happen? Can that happen?

Or at least there was that period where like Stone Cold was the tag champ or like he was tagging with it or with stone Cold at Sean Michaels for they chances to get I mean stone called the mcfoley were definitely tag champs together. That's that makes sense. I feel like, yeah, they were. I feel like Stone Cold and Undertaker were tag champs for for a second and that, but it was it wasn't on the same show as them having their match at the Garden, but it was

like leading up to it. I'm almost positive. But but anyway, you.

of keep making title changes seem special. They've been better about it, but there's too many titles that I still.

that he didn't do that. That is not winning, because there's this weird mentality if the if the baby face, even if they're facing on the face, if the basics of baby face isn't gonna win the title, don't get the fans hopes up and I'm like, no, you're you're selling tickets based on hope. That's the whole point of tuning in, and the disappointment is part of the emotional roller coaster. And all Broun did is you know, I get I'm gonna You're gonna get these hands. It was

like a cliche. It didn't feel I didn't I didn't feel sold on this being epic. I got sold on this being something that got thrown together and will be forgotten.

because it's like there's no there's no old storylines. It's just an audience who hasn't seen it yet, and it's like, well, when's the last time we did this. When's the last time we did a heel rep. When's the last time we had somebody run in and ring the bell before the match is over? You know, when's the last time somebody broke their leg? Whence the last time a guy

got hit by a car once? Let you know, if we're not gonna if we're not going to try and use stuff, you know, it's like, well, what's what worked in the past, Well, when's the last time we did that. Well, let's try it. We gotta do something. Yeah, we got hours and hours of TV to fill, you know, because I mean it's it's every story has been told. There's only like you know, the old cliches, there's only seven jokes.

It's just a different way to write. Every movie is the guy and the girl are going to meet and fall in love and they're going to get together or they're not. It's just the way that you do it. That's just fashion. Yeah, that's just you know how we're going to do it.

It's twelve pages every week packed with my TV reports, along with exclusive features such as my cover story on the top story of the week, our pay per view roundtable reviews from the Torch staff, exclusive feature length columns from Greg Parks, Rich Fan, Sean Radikin, Alan Coonahan, and Zach Cadorn, Torch Talk transcripts, the latest news, and more.

PW torch dot com slash paper Copy. Take a break from screen time and settle in every week with the Megadosa wrestling news and analysis with a Pro Wrestling Torch Newsletter paper copy edition. In the year twenty twenty two. You can get a full year of home delivery for just ninety nine dollars, or try us for an eight week trial subscription PW torch dot com slash paper Copy. All right, so we covered the clash. I got about ten minutes, and I want to ask you a few

other questions and a couple mailbak questions. Can we do that?

view because it's like, Wow, Jimmy Havock's crazy. You know, Joey Janella is crazy. They're going to do something crazy on the pay per view. It's it's there is an incentive to the hardcore thing. You can tease it on TV, you can go to a certain certain level with it, But if you want to see the real madness, then you got to buy the pay per view next one.

I think they're gonna. I mean, I know people in whow you complain incessantly as a distraction from their own incompetence and bad decisions about standards and practices, but that you know, that can be an asset too. When you're in the pay per view business, you you should have

your own standards and practices. One, because if you're good at what you're doing, you shouldn't have to do all the other stuff, and very often, and when you do do it, you should make people pay to see it, because that's the business you're in.

your podcast. Do you and your partner make my day? When I tune in? Everyone go VP on PW Torch.

have a functioning life. Otherwise it is it's it's you talked about it earlier in the show, you know, I mean you there, there's more than enough, And I do think that's a challenge for Doe to be getting to the question that asking people to pay more when now, I mean there's fifty million people are kind of have access to a product that people couldn't watch unless they

sat down and watched Twitch live. So many people couldn't watch it and it was a pain to find it online and or you had to watch it on delay and then you're sort of out of the conversation. But Impact Wrestling on Access TV, fifty million people are gonna have a chance to see this on a weekly basis. Added to all this other stuff, not to mention the new NWA show coming up with Billy Corgan and Dave Lakhana and a studio show that I'm intrigued by all. I mean, MLW is out there on YouTube and on

on b and sports. It's just there's so many different things out there and so many ways to access them. And now you've got Apple TV, apples say and subscribe to our TV service for four ninety nine a month or free with a new iPhone. Eventually those you know, five and ten dollars things add up and people start making tough decisions. I don't know that wwe can squeeze

five more dollars out of people. And it reminds me of when Linna McMahon was at the helmet and justifying extra pay per views in the month and jacking up the price five dollars and five dollars more than five dollars more. You think these hardcore fans will pay whatever to get whatever, but eventually there's a saturation point and they just sort of it loses its specialness. That that sense of something being rare or hard to get makes

it a lot more attractive. So I think it's I think they're I think they might be a little late. I'm trying to charge more.

money they're getting from all these places. It does matter in the sense that it's it is the temperature gauge of how enthusiastic your fan base is to then spend money in other ways. And it's pretty cold right now.

touch on a lot of levels. And the TV viewing and internet habits is just the greatest example, like the idea of all, right, well we're gonna put NXT on USA up against AW and that's going to be our way to combat it. And it's like, well, I don't see that making a difference to me because I'm going to watch AW and then on Thursday n XC is going to be on your streaming thing that's on demand, right,

doesn't not the deal? So like this isn't It's not nineteen ninety eight anymore, Like I don't have to choose between Like like here's the thing that where WCW screwed up in my household because I realized, oh, because well, first of all, if I was so inclined, I had a VCR and another cable box in the basement. I could just tape one and watch the other. You know, Nitro had a replay on it like one or two in the morning. So I was like, oh great, I'll watch RAW, put a tape in the VCR, go out,

come back watch. Like this idea like oh well I have to watch live is gone like that that is there's no like if you want to be if you weren't.

what people expect, you know, like just watch it. I'll watch it when I want. I'll either binge or I'll wait to hear if it's good or whatever. You know, wrestling is a little different. You don't want to wait too long. But yeah, the delayed watching is standard practice now for people. And obviously that's part of the reasons

the ratings are down. But WWE's making all their money from Fox and WC Universal because they want live viewership, so w B needs to figure out how to serve them and not just wave the white flag and say no one does that anymore. And I just don't get the sense from Vince or even the brass there that they've fully figured out, you know, how important it is to get people who care about being live. But I also get the conundrum of putting NXT on USA and

then taking it away from network subscribers. So it's it's tough. It's a learning curve for everybody. Okay. Another email Chris from Buffalo, New York. Another VP member, Matt, is there a drastic difference in writing for college humor skits and things along those lines in comparison to writing for WWE. This is a serious question. WWE seems to have a joke of a writing staff or easily ten plus years thanks as always in go VIP. I don't quite get the question, but he addressed the two.

think they make it up the chain and last. And there's we know from interviewing people like you and Gulls and others from the past fifteen years, there's a massive frustration because there's people of wrestling fans who want to who just end up realizing, Vince McMann is, you're writing for one person and all these good ideas and good concepts get lost in the process.

it's a little more like comic book writing. Not that I've written books, but just being being a fan of both and having written for WWE, is it's this endless mythology, you know, it's the storyline that has no end, whereas a sketch.

But the the similarity is that we with comedy is

the same as with any storytelling. I think the the similarity is we're building tension and then we need to relieve that tension, whereas like the build of a match is you're just building incentives to want to see the match, whereas with the match itself, I think is more similar to the sketch writing because that you have that beginning the middle and then and and you have that like take let's take like a standard WWE match, which is the Hull Cogan match, which is, you know, you get

some back and forth and then you get heat on the baby face and you're pouring heat on the baby face, and then you just finally get the baby Face come back, and then the Babyface wins. Every Hull Cogan match is the same thing. It's always a little back and forth. Then something happens Boom, Hulk is down, and Hulk is down the whole time, and then suddenly, all of a sudden, the Hulk just gets a miraculous breath of fresh air. He starts fighting his way out. You know, that's that's

basically comedy writing. Is you have a game, and you figure out what the game is, and then you go through, like like an SNL sketch. You see what the game is. They set it up at the very beginning, and then you just kind of go through all the permutations of how how many different ways can we tell this joke until we've exhausted it and now we've come to the end. You know, how much heat can we get on Hull Cogan before we've You know, there's either there's either two

ways that it can end. One he has to come back and now we're all happy, or the other way is that we've gotten too much heat on him and I either become bored as an audience member or I'm starting to lose faith in my hero that I'm like, gosh, he you know, what's he going to do to get out of this? So it's the same thing with like sketch writing of like you know, building building to a a a desirable client.

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watch everything, who just like pro wrestling. I think that there is another group that just watches w and that's all they know and that's all they will ever care about. I think that there is another group that got burned out in WWE, is sick of it and is gravitating towards something new. But I think that there is a very young, different audience that has been turned on to

either New Japan or PWG or being the elite. There is a new audience that AW has built that has cultivated that these are the people that bought all those Bullet Club shirts at hot Topic. I mean, I think that they have kept into a new audience that is not a casual fan. I think they have created a new wrestling fan who isn't necessarily interested in WWE, who has discovered this brand new thing. And I think that

that is I'm on the edge of my seat to see. Yeah, what it's going to mean for TV ratings.

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go to PW torch dot com slash Paper Copy. So PW torch dot com slash go VIP and PW torch dot Com Slash Paper Copy for your two options. You can subscribe to one or the other or both. That'd be great, all right. So if you missed yesterday's Thursday Flagship, Jason Paul joined me for a couple hours and we went in depth on everything going on this week and everything coming up in October. Just it's it's it's getting I say it all the time now it's just it's

buckle up. It's gonna get crazy. It's going to be so much fun in October, and we're gonna be here

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