INTERVIEW CLASSIC: Ex-WWE Creative John Piermarini predicting how Levesque would from McMahon if he took over, dealing with Stephanie, more

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Vincickmann and some of WWE's top stars. This episode included his thoughts on what shouldn't be assumed about the leaked raw script that week, also his experience dealing with Stephanie McMahon backstage, how promos are actually written, planned and practiced, His thoughts on roman arrange his push and specifically what could accelerate his growth as a character. How would Triple H run WWE differently, creatively than Vince McMahon. Well, let's see how accurate he was as we listened back to

this from ten years ago. Also what's missing from the Bree Nicky Angle so far and much more so fascinating two plus hours of insights sharing first hand backstage experience from his time working around Vince hook Mann, John Cena and others of that era. This originally live streamed on September fifth, twenty fourteen, and it is today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast Ten years Ago Interview Classic for Thursday, September fifth, twenty twenty four Here we.

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of MMA. It is Friday, September fifth, twenty fourteen, and I am joined by John Piermarini here for interview Friday. John is a semi regular guest here on the show and ex WWE creative team member. John, was it two thousand and eight through two thousand and nine or two thousand and nine and twenty ten that you were part of the company.

guy is on the show to answer your questions. So you can call six four six seven two one nine eight two Weights or email p W Torch Live Cast at gmail dot com. It's simply the name of the show at Gmail. So PW Torchlivecast at gmail dot com. Quick programming note before we go further. Though we had advertised Evan Bourne or Matt Sidel for today's show, he ended up with a scheduling conflict both this Friday and next Friday, so we weren't able to reschedule Eaven for

next Friday. So what we've done at switch Days, so James Caldwell and Greg Parks will be hosting next Friday interview. Friday moves to Thursday next week, which happens on occasion. I've done that two or three times in the past. So Matt Sidel, known as Evan Borne in WWE, he will be joining me next Thursday and expected to be a really good interview, and he told me today that

he'll have something that he can announce by then. Also that'll make his appearance more relevant, So tune in that it should be a really good interview and I am looking forward to that one, John, I'm trying to think, I don't have I should know the day right now. If Evan Bourne was active while you were there, wasn't.

the card. But outside of that, there was never really any effort put into creating, you know, a compelling story for him, or really diving into his character and trying to find a way to evolve it or really get it involved. For the most part, I think it was after I left that they finally started pushing him with Kofi. I don't know the timeframe on that. It might have been right after, it might have been a couple of

years after. But yeah, he wasn't the you know. And again he might have been seen as, you know, a potential big star. I don't think so, because there was never a point where even someone like Kochie Kingston where we thought he had some sort of potential and we wanted to push him right at least that was discussed and we gave it an opportunity. But with Evan Bourne, I don't remember his name really ever coming up as far as you know, really trying to come up with something for him.

match ever in person, and just he was remarkable. And I was backstage when when Gabe Spolski greeted him right afterwards, and Gabe said, you're hired. Will you come with us tomorrow to Chicago? And he was like, yeah, yes, So he's really impressive at first sight.

a fan. But you know, and we've discussed this at length in previous interviews, but there were certain guys that you know, you would you would attach yourself to or see potential in and really kind of die on a mountain to try to get that person over and get that person a story. And then there was guys that you just kind of knew. I mean, I could come up with something for him, but odds of it actually taking off or slim, and I kind of felt that same thing kind of applied to Evan Bourne.

dot com. But generally speaking, the show is on the hour before Raw on Mondays and then live at five thirty Eastern Tuesday through Friday. We also have East Coastcast dot com, which is a sister wrestling podcast hosted by Travis Andre and sometimes you'll hear Travis here on the live cast on Mondays with Bruce Mitchell. He hosts his own show and that is available to you on Wednesdays at Eastcoastcast dot com. Final plug of our sister podcast

here at blog talk Radio MMA Torch live cast. It is available at blog talk radio dot com slash MMA Torch. You can check that out at a weekly show with a lot of talk and live calls similar to this on the World of M M A. John, I want to go to an email question that we got here because this was in the news. I think it was yesterday when imager and it was probably other places too. Another raw script popped up and a listener Will from Jersey says he's listening live now, but he wanted to

give us question by email. You or John believe the leaked the leaked scripts could be coming from a writer inside who wants WWE to be criticized so that they can be forced to shake up the writing. Thanks hmm.

how the show works. But you know, Triple H's on there talking to Chris Jericho on Jericho's podcast about you know, how vincic Man called him up after Vince Russol left and said, you know, you know you you offered to help out. I want you to help out, give me some ideas and and I don't know, I mean, I guess they just you know, Jericho and Triple H talk about working in the ring together. I just don't think

there's a lot of secrets left. So I don't think WWE would care all that much about a script getting out. I'm sure there's probably some ind there's probably a feeling inside the company that they'd prefer they not get out after the fact, and they might, you know, put some numbers on the scripts from now on or something, or figure out a way to try to keep people from distributing out. But I don't think it's a big deal.

I don't think it was a big panic on vinscc manter triple ahious part this week that oh my god, people saw the draft of what people said that aired.

So I can't imagine that there would be a writer there who felt like they would leak a script and they'd be a backlashed to the writing and things would get shaken up. I think the better chance of happening is that someone leaks that script and someone gets fired.

And I don't think anyone would take that chance. But I mean, just to go along with this question, like you said, I see, and that was going to be my original answer was the final product isn't going to be what is going to cause Vince to shake things up?

us and wanted to clarify. So I again, yes, I mean if people see, oh, it's not Roman Reigns's fault, he doesn't say very much, he's just doing what he's told to do, then maybe that would cause a shake up because people start blaming the writers instead of the wrestlers. Same thing I guess would apply when we criticize announcers. And you know, when I criticize JBL, people go, well, it's JBL is just saying what he's told. And I'm like, when I criticize JBL, I'm not going after John necessarily,

I'm going after the product of JBL the commentator. And sometimes it's him, sometimes it's Vince. Sometimes it's a combination of factors. So when I criticize JBL, I'm just saying JBL the announcer that product is hurting the product. And here's why, as opposed to it's all John's fault. And I wish someone would step in and stop him. Because of course a lot of what the announcers say is is Vince McMahon headsets.

I don't know that Vince is going to recognize that and make any changes. Again, and I've said this so many times on your show, Vince is going to make changes when it affects his wallet, and ultimately part of that is the ratings and buy rates. So if you're not happy with the product and he sees a swarm of people leave, that's when there's going to be a change.

But it's not going to be because you know, a script got out and people thought, wow, the writing on that show is horrible because it's the same writing that showed up in the final product.

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little invasion of privacy. It's like they want a little mystique left in terms of how much detail is provided to the rest, in terms of what to say versus you know, what is in the charge of producers or agents, in terms of you know, you know, and fans can I'm sure a lot of people who got the script went back and watched Raw and looked word for word at how what the differences were between what was in

the script and what was said. And that's fascinating to them, and that's fine, and that's a microcosm percentage wise of fans, or it's a you know, small flights of fans that should say. But at the same time, I mean, I think it strips away a little bit of the last mystique when you kind of see how the sausage is made in paper form, and so when you watch wrestling now, it just drives home the fact that the wrestlers aren't

speaking from the heart. They're speaking from a memorized script, and I think that takes a little of the mistique and a little of the fun away from watching wrestler's talk when you think, well, those aren't even their words, and it's proven now because the script got out right.

I don't know if that was written in there. My guess is that something like that probably wasn't. But that's the part that it could take away from because I think, for the most part, wrestling fans that are educated are the ones that are seeing that script. I don't think a casual fan and maybe they'd come across it, but

I doubt they'd even really look it over. So I think that the people that are seeing that are the ones that are already educated enough on the product to know that Chris Jericho is scripted to say what he said. But you know, and if they see that that part with him and Triple H wasn't and there, that makes those moments that much more special because it gives that element of I wonder if they actually really don't like

each other. But then again, Jericho and Triple H go on a podcast and talk about how much they love each other and respect each other and all that, so WW is definitely doing their part to take away the mistique of the product.

you know, screw you. You buried me every chance he had, and then Jericho goes, oh, yeah, I was great working with you, Triple Ah, those those are great men. And then Triple H's thought bubble is, oh, it's great being boss because now I got this guy who doesn't like me,

you know, endorsing my own bs on the air. This is pandamic like, and I don't know that's necessarily true, but it's still I want to see what was really going on in their heads, because it did feel a little like a It felt like a really long handshake to try to prove to everybody to get along, right.

far as that went. In the early two thousands and so the reputation is they don't get along so and that there's a lot of tension there and resentment. So Triple H is gonna go out there and make it look like, hey, come on, you know Internet, because I think the Internet ken has some influence in steering the online you know, feeling about the network for instance, and you know the general tone of the general quality of

WWE that I think it matters somewhat. It's not overwhelmingly important, but it's a matter somewhat and enough for I think Triple H to go. I want to make sure fans see me and Jerich are getting along so that you know, to me, it's like a president and vice president like John Kerry and John Edwards who could not did not get along when they ran, you know, they think along at all. And Carrie had to plug his nose when you know, making the decision to go with him in

set a get part. Yet they had to go on camera and convince Democrats and and swing voters that they

were a great team. And again, I don't want to over I'm Jericho and Triple H might have buried the hatchet and you know in the last few years, and that might be more genuine than I'm giving them credit for all I'm saying is I'm somewhat skeptical John that, like you said, really well, there's a little maybe some mutually mutual motives going on, or they each had their motives for wanting that, you know, and.

all the production meetings. Triple H was in them one Seawan left. And I kind of look at it as, yeah, I'm guilty of it. Every writer is guilty of it. Vince is guilty of it, Kevin Done's guilty of it, Sean's guilty of it. All these people have done the same exact thing Triple H has done in the power that they were given to be able to put someone

over or bury somebody. And I feel like he just gets it so much more than everybody else, and I can see why he kind of wants to go out there and defend himself a little bit without saying, hey, guys, you do realize Sean Michaels did the same thing and you adore him, you know, and there's other people that do it. But I just don't. I didn't see him as that guy that went in there and just purposely

buried guy. So I feel like in a situation with Jericho and going back, and I know nothing about the story of if he was trying to bury him or whatever it may be in the early two thousands, but part of me maybe feels like, you know, again, maybe it was in a time when you're fighting with a fully taker Austin Rock and your parents say against Jericho,

and you're trying to hold onto that top spot. Maybe part of you goes, look, personally, I don't see him as a huge star, and there's nothing wrong with that. Some of us do, some of us don't. And I need to come out of this thing looking as strong as possible, because, like Triple H said on the podcast, I need to be that Darth Vader to the Stone Cold and the Rock and I need to come out of this looking strong enough to be able to compete

against those guys. And maybe I don't feel Jericho is the right guy to be putting over in a sense, maybe not for the one two three, but just in the sense of the storyline, because I need to be over enough to go up against these top guys. Now, again,

that's just pure speculation. Again, it's defending Triple H. But I've seen multiple guys bury people for the wrong reasons backstage, and I've never seen Triple H do it without either saying, hey, look, I maybe don't like this guy, but it's because I think this guy is in a better position to do that.

And everybody did that backstage. Did he do it more or more deliberately when I wasn't there, I don't know, But I can only speak for what I know, and I know that it's more than what everybody out there him have seen, you know, and it's all based of what they read or speculation. And I'm not I'm not even saying you right, just saying wrestling fans in general, he gets a bad rap, and from from my perspective, I don't think that he deserves it any more. Than

anybody else on top. I mean, wasn't it didn't stone cold not want to work with Jeff Jarrett, so he essentially buried a main event run for Jeff Jarrett at one point.

And you're right, I mean, it does happen. I have defended Triple h H more than just about any you know, prominent promising reporter commentator for exactly what you said. What I think, First of all, I think Triple AH gets blamed a little bit because he associated with Scott Hall, who just was this miserable human being to be around so much of the time. Admittedly so on his part, you know, just he just felt awful and he just he just brought everyone in the room down. But Scott

was a really smart, perceptive guy. So he'd find something that's wrong with somebody and have a real caustic way to point it out, but masked with humor. Kevin Nash not nearly as miserable to be around as Scott Hall, But Kevin Nash super one of the smartest guys I've ever gotten to know when wrestling over the years. But he was, you know, he was really perceptive of weaknesses and other guys. But and so, but he was very

willing to speak on it. And I think Triple H, because he was with that group, kind of inherited some of the reputation. He earned some of it, for sure, because but the thing is is, this is where I give Triple H credit. I don't think Triple H ever buried somebody with a false accusation in order to get ahead, right. My issue with Triple H is that he has a too narrow He has too narrow of a vision of

what makes a money drawing wrestler. And he also dwells too much on things that I think are not particularly relevant to a fan base, part of the fan base

that feels left out when they watch the product. And so Triple H is a guy likes to sit front row with men wearing g strings, flexing muscles, and there's a lot of fans who would much rather go to an indie show to thee Evan Boorne wrestle, and Triple H is just he just has different things that appeal to him that he would like to do with his free time than a lot of fans who feel left out of the WWE product, who aren't just in a

massive bodybuilding. So I think that that because he's super Triple H is super smart, has a really sharp buy for people's strengths and weaknesses. But what he thinks qualify somebody for a push and disqualify somebody for a push are things that I think that I don't always agree with.

And I think sometimes because of the level of power he attained because of his as he talked about with Jericho, his willingness to get up earlier than anybody else in go to production meetings, to sit in the production booth and oversee a video on himself because he's willing to do those types of things, and he's smart and a student of the business. He just his strengths and weaknesses I think got a larger were more scrutinized because they took on more power because he was so ambitious and

so hard working. So anybody else who wasn't sleeping in and went to those production meetings might have gotten their opinion heard also, and therefore their opinions would be more heavily scrutinized for bearing people.

the lotion. And then you go to more of a holistic person and they're gonna go, yeah, don't use that vitamin Jesus. And that I compare it to that in the sense that he was educated under Vincent Mann, Kevin Nash, Shawn Michaels, Scott Hall, and and that's what he's the

philosophy that he's learned. And I think that he's probably slowly learning the other side of it and beginning to appreciate the other side of it, whether it's Daniel Bryan or the product that he's working with in NXT, because there isn't a lot of those you know, freaks of nature or the you know, superhero body characters or individuals, not so much of the characters that are coming through

the system at this point. I mean, he needs to learn and he probably is to appreciate the semi Zins and the the Dean Ambroses and the Seth Rawlins of the world. And I think that he is.

And I think that has been used against some people where all you have to do is like a really good athletic spot and a big, more lumbering, muscular wrestler will look at you and just disqualify you as a main eventor because oh, you're just one of those spot monkeys and I jealous, Yes, yes, And I think what you said is absolutely true that he's kind of a student of the people that have been in power around him.

That's part of what gets passed along. The successful promoter passes along his philosophy, and there's this inertia to it where that style wins out. If a promoter who promoted smaller wrestlers was the one that, through whatever connection or break or ambition, went national, got the deal with NBC, got to deal with USA Network, and had the right funding and the right exposure, then then wrestling would be a lot more athletic, and the muscular guys would be

more kind of sideshow gimmicks and not the centerpiece. And with or if tag If a promoter who really made a lot of money with tag teams in addition to heavyweights, then that would be a much bigger part of national wrestling today. Tag teams would be something you could made event roll with and nobody would even think it was weird. You know, you're just oh yeah, of course Rock and or Expressman that express they're gonna headline a they can

headline a house show, or a TV show. So I think there's room for both absolutely that.

It's going to be the same thing. It's boring, it's slow. I want to see Daniel Bryan versus Seth Rawlands. And I think that what Triple A should probably learn to do is know that there's a place for both of those and both of them can be a huge draw. I mean, you can even look at at boxing. You know, heavyweights is what used to carry boxing. But here was the Ostar de la Joyas and the Sugar Ray Leonards

that they realized, Man, these smaller guys can draw. I mean, Floyd Mayweather right now is the biggest draw in boxing. Look at UFC. I mean, you have brock Lessner was the biggest draw, but then you've got guys like George Saint Pierre, who I think is probably up until he left, was the biggest draw in UFC, and he was near the bottom of their weight division.

PW boom dot com. Once again, that's PW boom dot com.

doubt in my mind. If it's a man is at ninety eight percentile, Triple H is at seventy two, and I think he's moving downward, you know, I think he's moving more to that healthy middle zone of appreciating all styles and Dad's good. I mean I get asked, you know, decent amount of the time by people by E Miller even on the show, is WW gonna better off or worse off when Vincent Man steps away and Triple H

takes over? And I mean, we don't know. It's a real mixed bag, John, because there's things Vince has an instinct for that no one's gonna appreciate till he's gone. But there's things that will go away, like this horrible announcing that we're getting now, worst announcing of any era in any promotion maybe ever, and it's hurting the product.

Bruce Mitchell wrote about that Tord senior columnist practice going on twenty four years writing for The Torch top Analyst, top analyst in all of pro wrestling, and he wrote a column in this Week's person Torch weekly newsletter is in every week just about and he wrote about JBL and he was just like, there is an easy way for WWW to make get more network subscribers, and it one costs another penny. And he laid out what JBL is doing wrong and what he could be doing instead

that would make a huge difference. And so there's things that when Vince goes away, everyone would be like, oh wow, I didn't even realize how good something could be. That was so awful, but now it's different, and Triple Ah would be sitting there going, thank God, I don't have to fight Vince every week on this or I haven't. I don't have to just close my mouth because it's a losing battle. There'll be so many changes that that

would cause it. So John, how about you, I mean, do you have an inclination of do you think WWE if Vince step down tomorrow, would in three years WWB be in better shape of Triple Ah running. And then if Vince stays in power for three more.

But again, just going off of what you said, the gut instinct of Vince, some of those things will do appear, so you might while you might see that seesaw sort of go heavy on the good, I think it's going to even out, and I think you're gonna see that there is a lot of genius Convince and and the people that he surrounded himself with, and if Triple H has a brand new team, I think you're going to see a lot of positives, but you'll see some negatives

that you wish that we're still around, but he's decided to go a different direction. What those are exactly, I don't think anybody knows, but Triple A and and they they may turn out to, you know, bring on a new boom period in wrestling, or in my opinion, I just think it's going to even itself out where you're gonna go he brought in these uh, these three guys,

these the best commentators since Jim Ross. But uh, if you asked me, if you were to if I were to have to guess, and I don't really watch NXT. I do when we do the specials, the takeovers, I do enjoy those, and I thought that the whole would be like that, But it seems that it's just kind of a one and I don't even know how often they do it. But any other time I've watched it, honestly, it's it's been kind of painful for me to watch.

I don't like the characters. I think it's it's cheesy storytelling.

there might be a you know, potential in it. But I think if if Triple H were in charge of Raw, there's things that about NXT that he would just filter because it's not experimental, it's the final product.

this this, this might work. But you know, we've we've dissected on this show, and I think you might have even back last time you're on in the sense that we don't you know, Adam Rose is all ring entrance, and once the bell rings, it's like fanser is ready to move on because we've never and again this is part of partly the bad announcing. We don't just know, we know nothing about him. He doesn't seem to take

his job seriously. He's like he's all ring entrance, no substance, and they haven't taken the character beyond the initial vignettes, and so it's just it's just a confetti show for how for an early house show match to you know, I mean, that's all it's just it's just it's just glitter and there's no substance and it's just there for house shows. It was it was what I was gonna say PM News, I was going way back a brotus Clay. When I think of brotus Clay, I think a Pan News.

I don't know why, I do know what, So you know brotos Clay was I mean, I said the second I saw his character, it was this is vincement Man's slot for a high energy We don't take ourselves too seriously lower card house show gimmick and it's not going to have upper mobility, and it'll be replaced in a year or two with something else. And that's kind of what I saw Adam Roseaz once it became pretty clear there was one layer to him and nothing more.

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up to us. And we'll begin with a VIP member, speaking of which Luis from New Jersey. Is this you?

guys that you guys were gonna get cars? That's not three part question, but it's it's fairly simple. The second question that I have is I just want to know it seemed like to me and WrestleMania twenty six, it seems like just last minute see punk and Raymond Cio Junior kind of just got thrown in there because they wanted a match for both of those guys to be put.

let's see what you got. And then as time goes by, while I never surpassed Dave Kapoor, Brian the Wurtz. Yeah, there were times I worked with Sina. There was times I had the main events segment. There were times that you know, I had if if the words put himself with somebody and then Kapor had the level down, then

obviously I'm going to get the guy below that. But then there was there was times when we would go to SmackDown and while I didn't and this kind of answer the question for the cmpunk Ray mysterio, so I'll bleed into that one. While I didn't necessarily know long term plans so much for SmackDown, I would be given a SmackDown talent to write for and it varied from again undercard to main event. So so no, it's not

you can't touch this person. But if you showed up and it was your second week on the job and you know that there's a let's try Roman Reigns Randy Orton promo in the crossover segment from our two to three and you say, hey, let me have that promo, I mean, you have to have a pretty good explanation why you believe you should be the writer on that. But then the CM punk Ray mysterio story, that was all a SmackDown story. Going into WrestleMania, again we were

still separated. We worked on the Row stories. They worked on the SmackDown stories and at TV, while I might be assigned CM punk during WrestleMania season, I was just going off based on what it is that they had planned, and sometimes I didn't even know what they had planned the next week. So it was hard for me to really push that story, which is a complaint that I

always had. And that's where you see inconsistencies in the stories because you have a guy like me writing for the cmpunk Ray Mysterio story and I have no idea what's happening next week or three weeks down the line. But that was always a match we had planned for a long time. It's so long ago. I can't give you details on it, but I can tell you that it wasn't something that we threw together. Maybe it came across that way in the storytelling.

We invite that interaction, let us know what you think of what we're saying, and let us know what you want us to talk about and ask us specific questions. Wadekeller Podcast at PW torch dot com.

was like that with WWE. We all lived in this bubble and there was nothing else surrounding us except for that. So when it came to girls, when it came to friends, when it came to enemies, when it came to shooting the shit, I mean it was all about that people in that bubble. So I don't think anyone ever, I mean, there would be things where hey, I saw this or I heard this, and you know, don't repeat this because I don't want it to get back to me because

I was then guy in the locker room. But yeah, I saw this happen, But I don't think it was ever anyone was, you know, telling secrets and saying hey, you know, I can't even think of an example, but I don't know. I don't think that there was more of that there than there would be anywhere else really,

unless I just wasn't that involved in it. I mean, most of the gossip that I had was a lot of like when I'm on wage show, A lot of what I say on this show, minus things that I kind of don't reveal, is the same thing that would happen on the car rides from Raw to SmackDown, where it was dissecting the show and talking about what we liked, what we didn't like, what we wish they would have done, what we could have done differently ourselves, for hey, you know,

to really go this direction or can you believe that then shut this down?

the divas. Yeah, I mean there was always there was always some story worry that that one of them would would say to get themselves in a better position over the other ones, because at the time those girls were there, there was cheez I don't know, a dozen or more fighting for three minutes on the show every week, and it was usually just two of the girls. So hopefully that answers your question.

McMahon's idea of a great wrestling promotion? And if Vince was guaranteed to make the same amount of money whatever creative route they took, would he prefer nineteen eighties Rock and Wrestling, Attitude era or something else.

I mean, this is the best product right now, because Vince McMahon ultimately could make either one of those eras return, but this, and there's there's a lot of times too where you know, I grew up with with the Hogan era. I don't know what they called that era. I mean, I guess the whole Commnia era.

This isn't rastling, you know. And I think that he truly feels that the best of every era is incorporated in the current era that we're in, and he thinks that this is the best product he's had. Now. Does he think that he'd rather have Stone Cold, Steve Austin and and hul Coogan in their primes right now? Absolutely? I think from a talent level, he would probably prefer to go back to, you know, when he rated all

the territories and had everybody's main event talent. But I think it's as far as storytelling and dying, this is what WWE is, I honestly truly steal he thinks right now is the best.

what he felt was best? The catch, I guess John would be maybe Vince would like to promote differently, but he feels as a publicly held company and with a PG the PG approach told the sponsors that he's actually just white knuckling his way through Rivory Week because there's so much he wants to do that he can't because he's constrained by his own PG rating or sensors or advertisers or usaying that, do you think there's any any element to that that goes into what we see on TV?

that that would draw. But I think too is there's this love affair with the Attitude era, and I loved it as well, But it fits the time. There was Jerry Springer, there was Girls Gone Wild.

got behind Bray Wyatt. I mean, there's no elements really of say Breaking Bad or The Walking Dead on WWE right now. They're going more so towards shows that aren't popular today, but something that Vince can reflect back on and go, this is what PG is to me, and it's it's, you know, you have a twenty something core audience, but you're selling them an eight year old product, but that eight year old viewership product. But eight year olds

don't want to watch eight year old TV shows. They want they want to be cool and wants the Walking Dead. So I think that maybe Vince Fields handcuffed, you know, and and feels like there's are things that he could do. But I truly feel like in in Vince's mind, when I was there and we were starting to get some of these bigger sponsors, he was so proud of that and he wanted to get that. And I think that he just wants WWE to be part of society, not

a circus, not what people laugh at. And I think that he feels that ww is legitimized and his goal has been reached when he can get uh PETSI colde you know, these these huge companies, these staples to to sponsor his show. So I think, yeah, I think that there's you know, I think that you see elements of it with with lata Uh talking about when when we had the Malaysian airlines and Russia may or may not

have been involved, and he went right to that. So while I think he wishes he could go to that well and not be punished or ridiculed for it, I think that that's maybe the extent to where he wishes he could take the gloves off. But I don't think he he wants to run out there and you know, do a sable stripping down to just pasties or whatever else they did in the Attitude era.

of being a fan. You know, is it great for the product?

He's really good at that. He'll digest the ideas and he'll take a couple of days to think about it, and you're like, he's about to say something nice about Vince, and then he goes, and then on the third or fourth day, he picks the best opinion or the best idea and claims it as his own, you know, and

claims he came up with it. But you know what, if you just want the product to be better, you know, to a degree, if it doesn't hurt your payroll or your job security, you know, if the boss wants to kind of take credit for it, and that's the game that's played, then so be it.

from it? You know, three m's make made billions. He goes my sixty eight thousand dollars salary or my eighty thousand dollars salary, and people like that to a rip off. He goes, well, not really, because you should see all the bad ideas that I would have run out of, that would have run out of money, try to patent a bunch of bad ideas and never caught on until then.

And that's kind of it. You know. It's like, I want your ideas, but in the end, you know they're gonna be my ideas, and I'm going to get credit or blamed because I approve or disapprove of those ideas.

The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the Nineties Pass cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed.

have a few months or a few years left of these other guys, then what because we're in no position right now to have guys replace them. And and that's ultimately what happened was you had Batista leave, you had Jericho leave, you had Sean leave, Triple H stopped wrestling on a regular basis, same with Undertaker, and then there was nothing. There was just oh, okay, well this guy's

getting put into a spot. And I think I think at that point it was like right back when they first started with his push or uh, you know, punk even by default, I think kind of just you know, he went from a B player to an A player just because he was a top the B list. But and again I'm sorry if I don't quite understand your question. But I think you just wanted to know like the booking philosophy at the time. But I don't know what you mean by what.

to go? Okay, we'll add that into the show. So you get beat down and I can't speak for the current product or the current writing situation because I know that Brian doesn't oversee it at the moment, but yeah, you beat yourself up so much that you start going, I know this could work, and I know not every idea I have is gonna work, but one of these

is gonna work. One of these. I put so much effort, blood, sweat and tears into, you know, coming up with this, sitting with the talent, talking with the talent over the pot, so much time away from your friends and family and going all right, I finally got it.

to any two voice. They're stuck in their ways and it's institutionalized and it's bad for the product, and you just spend your time trying to figure out is it ninety ten or ten ninety? You know, how frustrated should I be versus how much should I just kind of wait around because someday I'll get it.

ready to contribute ideas and shake things up. And there's a whole institution of people and methodologies that got people to the point that they're at that they're scared to

shake up. And part of a good corporation is finding that balance between honoring tradition and introducing new ideas, and WWE and physic Mann are probably at fault for, you know, being somewhat limited in less their backstory the wall and accepting new ideas, and the attitude era was born out of, in great part, being scared because the competitor was doing a better job than them.

How could I have, did you know, put in that spot or could at least I could have had a better vehicle to get my ideas used. And I still sit this day wonder that. But you know, what can you do? And I think you do see, at least from my perspective watching it as someone who's going, okay, how is this pitched? Or whose idea was this or you know, does this look like something that they had

planned or something they just threw together. I do notice a lot now that there seems to be a lot more involvement with the undercard like that we talked about when we first started this conversation, and a lot more different types of ideas and philosophies used within the show that I do think that they're bringing in these guys from from Hollywood that are lasting, you know, three months, and these guys are kind of coming in and going, Okay, I know storytelling, and I know what I need to

get across, but I need everybody's help because I don't necessarily know wrestling psychology or I don't know how to properly lay out a story that you know, the way Vince likes it. So I think you see a lot of the ideas from a lot of the different writers, and it's a guest used throughout the show. And it would have been a great time for me when I look at it and going, I think I would have fit in better now than I did in two thousand

and nine and twenty ten. And while I'm proud of the accomplishment that I was able to contribute to the product. I think that I would have been able to accomplish a lot more just based on what I see, But then again it could be worse now I don't know.

just a couple of minutes. Here, I do want to note that we've had just had some great interviews this summer since John was last on the show, including Xbox Sean Waltman, one of my favorite guests on this show,

provides so much insight into how WWE operates. He talks so freely, talked about his reaction to the streak, ending why he was the first to pitch to Triple H that Roman Reigns could be a blue chip, top tier player, and this was when Rains was frustrated with the lack of progress and developmental his reaction to see on Punk Silence and more. That was back on June twentieth. You can find these shows when you go vip. By the way, there's a drop menu on pw torch dot COM's membership

page pw torch dot com Flash members. There's a drop menu and it's just pw torch live cast interviews, and when you choose that option, you can scroll through years and years and years of interviews and downloader stream whatever it is you're in the mood to listen to. Pat McNeil in June interviewed Joel Gertner, former ECW announcement. My guess you're on the live cast, John, anything you want to plug Twitter? Any projects coming up, anything people should look for.

but we do answer email questions. And another perk of going VISPS you don't have to listen to my long plugs telling you why VIP is so cool. Those get edited out of the VIP version along with plugs for our sponsors, so that for some of you at this specific moment might be a real incentive. So go VIP for three thirty three. All right, thank you everybody once again. Bruce Mitchell and Travis Bryant to be by on Monday, and then next Wednesday, Pat McNeill be hosting with another interview.

I don't think he told me yet who he's got lined up. But then next Thursday, a special Thursday interview I'll be hosting and Matt Sidel maybe better known as

Evan Bourne, will be my guest. Well, now we're not going to move to the VIP after show and talk about events in WWE, including Lessener Sena hype Getchon's opinion on that, should Roman Reigns face triple H between now in WrestleMania and if so, under what circumstances, We'll talk about the Stephanie Bella storyline and also that email question related to that. So thanks again everybody, and thanks John Piermarini and on the outside of the music VP members

whole tight some good discussion yet to come. All right, John, I know you told me off there on the VF you have to show you had one of the most incredible things and stories to share that you had ever shared, and that you only wanted to do it on VIP, So why don't you go ahead and tell that story?

few other times. No one's complained, so I kind of fun with that anyhow. All right, well, let's start off with his email, because it's an interesting email from somebody who I think was listening to the show here and let me I brought it up on my phone. It's all righty here, all right? This comes from Devon or Devon. He says, My main issue with the Bella Twins storyline is that the motivations behind the characters actions are not

really coherent. When John was around, how much time they did the writer spend vetting stories or altering angles to make sure that there were no excuse me, that there were no holes in Each character was acting logically and rationally based on their stated motivation and goals. An example of clarify my point is Nicki hates Brie for stealing all of her boyfriends and all the other things mentioned

in the Growing Up Bella segment. Well, if that's true, then Bree's a bad sister and Nikki is not really the heel here. But if Nicky's lying and making these stories up, then why exactly is she mad at Brie? Doesn't seem like the current creative team in Vince is bothering to make sure their stories actually make sense?

like free right now. It was almost like the same thing with the Daniel Brian is cheating on bree story. It's like, Wow, Daniel Brian's not really that cool of a dude because you never had him come out and say, hey, not true, guys. I know, I think brief for like an interview segment right before match at Summer Slip, I think she said something like Stephanie came out and told

that big, fabricated lie about about Daniel Brian. But I mean, how do we notice that that's not Daniel Brian going that's a lie and her going I knew it, you know, I mean, we had no conclusion to if that was a lie or not.

Tuesday night at pewtorch dot com. That also applies to WWE payperviews. I cover those live at pw torch dot com with a detailed written report with star ratings, and of course you can find other TV reports from other contributors to pw torch such as nxt ROH, Impact Wrestling and more. Check it out pw torch dot com your first stop for TV and pay per view written reports.

to try to go, hey, where is this going? And who knows, you know, maybe down the line you'll get more of a reason, or maybe it's you know, it's that pushback where h Stephanie is really into something and Vince isn't, and Vince is gonna ultimately win out and go I don't I know, I don't want any of this set Just go out there, do this, do that,

and get it over with. But I think if you know, the question was, let's try to make some sense of it, and I think you could still sort of make sense of it in the sense of, maybe, you know, he'lls typically believe the bs that they say, and I maybe Nicky felt like Bree was the golden child and she

always did everything right. Nicki did everything wrong. And you know, she's jealous that Brie got married, and of course she's gonna go, oh, you married that goat based guy, but in reality, she's going, god, I really wish that was me.

And on top of me losing my sister, she kind of stabbed me in the back because I was getting my ass kicked for a month and you decided that it was more important for you to stand up for your husband than to save me, and we were in the womb together, and this is this is what I get.

So yeah, screw you. I'm I'm I hate you because I'm jealous of everything and you've turned your back on me and you chose somebody over me, and I don't have that other person where she might have done the same thing with Cina, but she doesn't have that opportunity. So yeah, it makes sense to me in a story standpoint, if you can get that deep into it and tell the story and go. You turned your back on me, and I hate you for it. You chose Daniel Brian over blood over your own sister, and I hate you

and it's that simple. And if I never see your face again, then so be it. And I'll never shed a tear over it. I truly do you ruined my life, I'm gonna ruin yours.

you're overreacting to you. You're being petty and jealous and three, I just don't like your attitude and how you decided to deal with this, and you just need to shut up already, Like that's what can turn her heel And they're just you know, there's some of those elements are there, but you know, Breed needs to and that's something that

I think Vince is just week on. Babyfaces need to actually be given a chance to say this is this is not true, and here is the truth, and and you know, give some proper attention to giving their side of the story, and it's strange, but sometimes that does get left out.

to help Stephanie in whatever way. And so if we if we crap all over Brie, so be it. That's not our goal here. Our goal is to build stefinitely Stephanie to ultimately I tried to say two words in one, uh get hers against somebody else, you know, And while I don't necessarily one hundred percent agree with that, I can at least see the philosophy. Why are we going to invest letting Brie kind of get over on Stephanie

when ultimately we're saving that for somebody else. And I think you can like compare that to if you watch, you know, a movie or a TV show and you see your top heel get over on a D list, or maybe not a D list, but like the fourth I'm trying to think of an example as I'm talking,

and I can't think of them. But you know, the the the first babyface in the movie that the heel comes across, they're just gonna wipe that person out, you know, And it's and it's to build to win Spider Man or whoever it is, finally gets to that heel at the end, and that the babyface at the beginning might shine a little bit, but you're not gonna get too much. It's more so to showcase the heel. And maybe that's

just what they're doing. And I think that I could be wrong and they could just be completely messing it up, but that's where my guess would be. And if that's the case, I would be okay with it because I think ultimately, if you look at the performance that Brie is giving, she's not winning anybody over as far as breaking out, and it's the whole goal was to have her break out of this. Nicky's the one. I'm not, by no means am I endorsing Nicki as being amazing

in this story. But she's showing a lot more than Brie is.

make it. I totally made it up, but I want to make good on this on giving a couple of backstage insights on how Stephanie's perceived behind the scenes, because I think that's fascinating as she's put herself out there on TV. I commented with Jason Powell on Tuesday's live cast. I think Stephanie is either really good to spectacularly good on air, and then there's this whole vast middle zone

that she never hits. And then there's time I'm where she's just awful, channelducing, awful and completely unself aware and I think counterproductive. And it's just weird because she's doesn't

really fall in the middle very often. And there's times where I'm like, that was good, she belongs on TV more of that, and then like two weeks later should be on and I'll just be grown and going, my god, she has no self perception of what her strengths are and that would just totally undercut everybody and and everybody she's in the ring with, and she just you know,

sucked the oxygen out of the room. Your opinion on Stephanie's performances, you can react to that, but also perception of Stephanie as a boss but also somebody who puts herself out there as a performer. Do people walk around thinking, ah, Steph's cool, I work under her, but she's you know, she's relaxed and it's relaxing to be around her. Or is everyone just really you know, like at maybe her wish on edge around her and treating her like you better not sneeze in the right you know, better not

sneeze around her and look at her the wrong way. Like, what's the backstage interaction and perception among people who work for her.

experience with her was great. But then you'd hear other people who just could not stand her, and you know, I don't, I don't know why. And you know, they had every every reason they gave. I had the exact op said experience with her. So I don't know. But as far as you know, at the time, she was Stephanie McMahon, she was a boss, she was part of creative. I think it was more so a title at that point than actually contributing to the creative.

really contributed creatively as far as here's some ideas. She would walk into the room sometimes and sit us all down and go, okay, let's talk about this, but it was never here's ideas I have. So creatively, I can't really say. As a performer, I think she's great, and I think she's one of the better performers on the show. I mean, there's times that she just she just knows what she's doing out there, and sometimes I think that she takes away from the other performers that are out there,

and I think that that hurts them. But I think she's great both personally and on air, so I don't i'd be a bad person to kind of like break down her flaws or things that I didn't like about her, because I honestly could tell you eight I never had a bad experience with her personally or professionally.

fight face brock Lesner scene. It takes out let Rains get you know, get the finish and get the pin and Sina just you know, went to ringside the job with Triple H and now you know, match against Shorrton, rematch against th Whorton, a feud with Seth Rollins. Is do you think Roman rains is on, is being promoted at the right pace and is doing what's asked of him well? Or is he falling short or is a writing falling short?

him only. And let Range choose that writer, like, go to him and go, look, do you have a guy on this staff that that you feel you click with or that you respect creatively, or you know you're just in sync with, And and let him say, yeah, you know, John, Okay, John is your writer. I mean, you have thirty freaking writers. You have enough for almost one guy can be dedicated to one one wrestler, and you'd have everybody compensated for, so,

you know. And I take that guy, and I think that that guy should do nothing but work with Rains, find his voice, find out who he is, and and literally just concentrate on Roman Rains and his promos and and and that entails showing up to the arena and saying, hey, man, after you go of your match, let's sit down, let's let's cut this promo, let's go over it. Let's let's find out who it is you want to be, you know,

give me give me an inspiration. Okay, my inspiration is I'm I have such a hard time referencing someone, but my inspiration is star Lord from Guardians of the Galaxy. Oh okay, so you want to emulate that type of character. All right, well, let me do some research and i'll get back to you and you do the same, and let's come together next week with some ideas. And I think you'd see him grow so much quicker if if

he had that. And it's also too you know a lot of these guys sometimes, even when I was there, they have ideas but they don't know who to go to with it. Or you know, Roman could sit here and be like, man, I got this, I got this kick ass promo. But let's say he comes up to me and he goes, hey, man, I'd like to say this, Oh, Roman, I don't got I don't have your promo tonight.

knows who Roman Reigns is. And I'm talking about the real person, and I don't think that there's anybody who could create a voice for him without going I need to spend every time i'm at on the road, I need to spend with you. And you know what, if you're serious about being the top guy, I show up every Sunday by nine pm and I stay at the HoTT I'll come to you. You come to me, let's have a drink, let's talk. If not, if you come in late Monday, I'm there at eleven o'clock, i got

my production meeting till three. I'm all yours after that.

write for him. But I think too that what Rains needs to do is I don't know how I can really express this, but I think that he needs to find something to help fans kind of latch onto him. Give, give, Give something for the fans to do to emulate Rains when Raw isn't on on the playground or on you know, hanging with their friends if they're older. You know, you kind of had the thing with with Austin, you know, hell yeah, or the or the Rock kind of had

his catchphrases and they caught on outside of wrestling. You had a way to emulate these guys, and it was a way for you to kind of attach yourself to that character. Hey, I could be stone cold Steve Austin. If I throw two middle fingers up to somebody, or you know, I can raise my eyebrow to someone who says something weird to me, I can be the rock. That's how I can be the rock. I don't think that anybody has the ability to do that with Roman Reigns. And you know, it could be something is just as

simple as a catchphrase. Maybe it's something more. But I think that he needs to find a way to connect with people outside of the ring because while it's great to go, oh cool, his match is up next after that, there's nothing else to represent Roman Rains on the show or with the people.

Brock lesnar John Cena SummerSlam match. What'd you think of the booking of that match and what have you thought of the follow up in the week since.

against one of the top guys. He may or may not win, and I think that they hurt him, and then I think they erased all that with SummerSlam, and I think that he just became a huge attraction and I think that he's gonna He's gonna garner a. Anyone who who saw that or heard the buzz that is not a loyal viewer of the product is going to want to see him wrestle again, which is why I think that they have I don't want to say the opportunity, but they run the risk of destroying all that all

over again by booking this match against John cena a too soon and too poorly. I mean, he destroyed Sena and I can't imagine them booking him to do it again. So in that case, you're going to take away what they did at SummerSlam. So I here's the thing, and I look at things almost I look at things as a fan, but then I also look at things of how it was probably booked, and part of me thinks

that they didn't have a definitive plan after SummerSlam. They went into SummerSlam going this is what's best for business today, and I think that what they found out was whether they planned on going two months with this story or three months or however long, or maybe they just decided it was the best option because no one else was ready.

And I think that what Vince ultimately did was go the only way to get people to care about John Cena facing brock Lessner again and more so specifically John Cena fans, was to give those people the hope that he could win. Otherwise everyone's gonna go. He got his ass kicked. I mean, worse than any since anything we've seen since the eighties or nineties, almost on squash matches on Superstars. You know, why would I watch that again?

And I think Vince's philosophy is make him as strong as possible so that so that his fans believe that he could win. And I think that that's where they're going as far as is how they're booking it. What whether I agree with it or not, that's what I think the philosophy is.

but yet don't chill Sena again? So I think that what you could do and what they might do is you have to give Seena the opportunity to have some offense, and maybe you have something where Sena does find that dark side and he somehow gets away with hitting Sena with the chair some sort of foreign object, and you sell the story of you know, a Lessner is wounded. I mean, he's a wounded animal. We have not seen

this yet, this could be it. John Cena could beat, could beat rock Lessner, and yet at the end, rock Lessner still beats Sean Cena. But you have a plausible explanation as to how John Sena all of a sudden got all this offense on him, yet he still loses. And then you kind of run with the story of all right, I mean, the guy that we've been touting is the greatest world champion of all time couldn't beat him at one hundred percent. He couldn't beat him at

fifty percent? Who could stop this guy? And then when the time's right, it's Roman reigns. And now you've built such a huge star out of Roman where you got a guy who beat the Streak, you got a guy who beat John Cena, and you got a guy who beat John Cena maybe on one leg. I mean, who could stop this guy? And to go even further in just kind of like in the booking whether I think

that this is the best idea or not. Like I was always the type of person where they would say, here's here's the idea, and I think the general idea is that Roman reigns rents the royal rumbles, and I would be always the type of person that would go, Okay, I'm not saying we shouldn't do that, but for the sake of throwing an alternative idea out there, let me throw an alternative idea so it's not so predictable. What if you you know, and along the way you got

to build Roman reign. So I think you got to keep them away from build WrestleMania thirty two. But who do you have that you can have them go aft? Okay, you've got seth Rawlins you've already had or I think ultimately you get to Triple H, who can see the ascension rain and go, okay, I got to put a stop to this because it's not going to be this guy. By the way, I hate that storytelling, but that's just

the way that WWE books everything. So you know, you have Triple H go okay, we're doing Royal Rubble qualifiers. Roman wins, and maybe it's you know, he tries to stop Roman from winning, but he still does and he goes, great, Hey, you know, congratulations, you've qualified for the Royal Rumble. You will be an entrant, but you first will have to face me earlier in the night, and you can have

Roman reigns go over. But then you can have something where maybe it's the authority, maybe it's just Triple H and a fledgehammer, but you have them take out Roman and not something that would be a long term injury, but just something that he's out of the Royal Rumble.

Brock wins the Rumble. So now the next night on Raw you can have that question of, well, where does that leave WrestleMania or where does that leave the next challenger for Brock And you have Hayman cut such a brilliant promo. You know, hey, not only did we defeat the Undertaker, we defeated John Cena twice. We went through you know, from Survivor series to Royal Rumble. We went through this guy, this guy, this guy. Then we went into the Royal Rumble and we annihilated every single superstar

in the back. There is nobody else at this point, maybe Brocks should go back to the UFC. Maybe we should just go sit on his ranch and wait for someone to step up worthy of facing him. Maybe we'll go, you know, conquer something else, and then all of a sudden you have Roman reigns come out and go, yeah,

you've beaten everybody, but you haven't beaten me. And then you tell the story going into WrestleMania, where you at least don't have the predictable Roman reigns, roll, rumblewin, And while I don't think fans will reject Roman, they might reject the idea of him winning because it's just so predictable and it's kind of like, oh, we were hoping for a swerve, but you didn't give it to us. And it's not like they were dying for Roman like they were for Daniel Brian and they got their wish.

It's more all right, they're building Roman. Oh, okay, he's gonna win the row row. Uh he won it, okay, thanks. You kind of can get away from that, and then you kind of develop Roman as bad ass. That's stepping up to lessener in it's the last hope essentially of the WWE. To get that.

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so far, so good. It's not blowing anybody away. I think he needs a lot of work on the MIC, and I don't necessarily think it's his fault because uh, you can see it in him without him having to do anything, that this guy's cool, that what he's saying

on TV is not really him. So I think if you can find that balance of this is the way we want to present you with here is your voice injected into it, because I don't think it's as simple and I and I you know, Wade, And while I agree with with you and Austin on certain aspects and you know, things shouldn't be overscripted, one percent agree. But I also think that Steve Austin was in the business for what fifteen years or more before he was cutting amazing promos.

in WCW. Yep, you know, and go, hey, what what is stunning Steve oh Man, I don't know. Well, okay, well, I kind of have an idea. Can I can Can we go over what I wrote for you oh Man? And this is good, Okay, go out there, cut that and eventually he starts finding out who's stunning or stone cold is and he doesn't need someone to write for him. But I don't know that Roman, and I could be wrong.

I don't know that Roman necessarily understands maybe certain points that he would need to hit on from a story telling standpoint, from a psychological standpoint. So I think it's good to have someone there to lead him because I think that, like the consensus online is God, just let him talk, don't script him. And I think that he might improve a little bit, but I think that he

would also regress a little bit. So if you just had one guy who he was comfortable with, like I had guys there that I could tell you to this day, would prefer I was writing their promos to the people that write their promos. And it's because we click, and I didn't click with every person there. And I can probably tell you that there's probably some people that go This guy talks like he built such a rapport and

knew everyone's voice, he didn't know mine. I would agree with him, but there were some people that I did, and there was some people that would say, Hey, I was assigned to this writer, but I want I want to work with you on my promo. Sure, let's do it. And it was always better.

he said. But in terms of, like with Roman Reigns, working with him as a future top guy, near future top guy, what they do with him in terms of heavily scripting promos should be as part of an evolution to get him to need less and less exact wording memorized. Agreed, Yeah, so, and I thought you would agree with around that, And I think that's where Randy Ort never really got off

the It's it's been a crutch for him. And he never learned to walk without the crutch, and so his crutch is I'm going to memorize it word for word because I don't want to have to think out there. I don't even want to feel out there. I just want to be in some character that I've figured out how to portray and memorize the words, and as I speak them, I might even be thinking about what I'm going to do tonight after the show, and I think

fans pick up on that. And that's what Steve Austin really talks well about is And so what I'd like to do is Roman reigns is yeah, work with them, have him do some exact wording, but also as part of that backstage process, because there's so much money on the line with him, get him in a room with a camera and a microphone, a boom mic or holding it whatever, and have him cut the promo his way without a script, where there's some bullet points and then yeah,

so then when he speaks it, he's then you can tell him, Okay, hey, here's that's what you left out of the script. But she did these parts so much better and it felt so much more real. But here's something that didn't naturally come to that's really important. That's a point you need to make. So this is in the script. You missed it. Let's try it again. Speak from the heart, don't worry about word for word. But

you know, you got to hit this point. And I think that step seems to be missing because Randy Orton doesn't have it. You look at that roscript for Monday. A lot of guys don't have it. Some go on, some go into their own off on their own and it works. But it's amazing how close almost word for words some of these promos are.

literally every single word on that sheet. But what I would sit with them and go, okay, but how can we make this more mis what makes you more comfortable? And if I'm with Roman, I'm going, hey, I want to say I'm going to beat your ass, and Roman would go you know what, I wouldn't say I'm going to beat your ass. I'd say this, and I'd go, cool, it's your voice. But from the standpoint of where I'm saying with the writers, is that in the nature of

the business right now. And I don't know if it's exactly like that, but based off of saying you saying that there's a script and they're saying word for word, it's probably the same thing. Vince McMahon wants word for word what is said on that paper set out there. So if you're going to bring them a paper, yes, Roman, I need you to say word for word what I'm putting on this paper. But I want what's on this

paper coming from your mouth, not from mine. I'm just giving you a guideline and I'm saying I think maybe this would be a cool catchphrase, or maybe I think that you should make sure that you hit on the history of the shield in this promo. And at the end, I think you need to say you're gonna kick his ass. Now if you want to say everything completely different that you want to hit on, like you said those bullet points, I'm gonna write down what comes out to your mouth

and then he's gonna say it without reading anything. I'm going to write it down and then i'm gonna go, Okay, I'm gonna spend the next hour with you or till you go out there, however long that may be, and we're going to continue to cut this promo. Now it's word for word on a sheet of paper, but it came out of his mouth first, and that's the way

I would write for these guys. I would never say, you have to say this unless these guys there was certain talent that depended on what was written for them and just going I don't know, just is this what you have for me? Okay, I'm gonna say that. And when I argue, you know, just let these guys go out there and don't overscript them. There's it could be a disaster for some. And I've talked to Randy. I worked with Randy going into WrestleMania twenty six. He can

cut his own promos. He doesn't need someone writing them. But maybe and I've never asked him, but maybe just for him. He goes, look, I care more about what happens in that ring, and I want to make sure that everything's perfect. Plus I want to be able to have my time to myself to do whatever it is that I need to do, stretch, get my mind right, and I don't want to think about what I want to say out there. Tell me what you want me to say, I'll do it because it's the least important

thing for me today. And maybe that's just the way that.

That was such a great promo. But wait, why are they fighting again? I don't understand, you know, so, Yeah, I think there's pros and cons to both sides.

What amount of time do you think wrestlers in what's the range top guys spend thinking about practicing and prepping for the promo that we see on RAW that's you know, somewhat an in ring promo, that's somewhat substantial. How much time does the average guy put in or.

So those those types of people, I don't know. I don't know if they just looked it over for twenty minutes and then met me and Gorilla and said, Okay, here's the promo. It's good. Yeah, okay, cool, I'm going out there, or if they spent you know, eight hours. I just know that any times that I really sort of try to develop talent, swagger Miz McIntyre dBase those guys, it was me sitting with them pretty much. Anytime that

they were free, not going over their match. I'd go to catering with them and I'd eat with them and I'd go, all right, what about face?

your promo. And he's like, okay, okay, I gotta go round and I was like okay, and I was like I'll come find you. I couldn't find him the entire night at.

they cut it. It was on like a SmackDown, and I just remember Vince looking at me and I was we were in guerrilla after it was done, and he sat me down and he was just like, I mean he treated me like a child. Yeah, do you not know how to write? And I'm thinking to myself, it's.

oh my god, man, I'm so sorry. I'm sick I was I've been you know, doing this, doing that, and I was just like, Ray, no problem. But I was like, man, next time, Like I can't have you go out there and do that. And he's like, I promise, Man, won't happen again. I'm so sorry. I saw you talking to Vince and you know there's there's that that happens. So I'm effected. Ask me, no writer wants you to go

out there and have a bad promo. It affects It affects the writer more than it affects the the the wrestler, because I think, you know, you could go out there and cut a bad promo but have a great match, and I think people would be like, well, yeah, a great match.

And I'm taking two steps back for you know, not even two steps for every hundred steps you could take forward, you have that one bad promo and you're back at the bottom, and then you got to you gotta crawl back up again. So it's I don't know, I don't know how long everyone takes. I can only tell you that it varies from you know, like a Christ Jericho is sometimes looking at it being like, okay, I know what you what you kind of want me to say,

I got it, and then he just has it. But then there's time that Chris Jericho has come into the writer's room and we started a computer and you know, meticulously put together a promo, going on the thesaurus and finding the right words, and you know, spending three hours writing his promo. And then sometimes he just says, I know what I'm gonna say, and here write this down,

and you write it down and it's done. So I would assume that sometimes somebody would spend five minutes, and sometimes someone would spend the whole day going over their promo. And I don't think there's anyone that just always spends just a little amount of time or a lot.

wrestlers all spend twenty to forty minutes practicing promos. Like that would be wrong because maybe two guys on the roster spend that much time, four guys spend two hours, and other three guys spend five hours, and one or two or three guys spend less than ten minutes, and they all maybe do good or bad promos, right, I mean, I mean it's really it really is variable by the person and their attitude and their approach, I mean exactly.

for me? Like here it is, okay cool. I might change this in this, but other than that, I like it. I'm gonna roll with that. Okay cool. And yet, you know, if you were to ask me, does the Swagger spend a lot of time on his promos? I say, yeah, for the most part, anytime I worked with him, we spend a lot of time on him. But you can't say that he did that.

person memorizing it. If it turns out that that is one of the twenty or or twenty or thirty or sixty percent whatever number it turns out to be at on the rest of any given time, who are actually better when they're just told here's what we're trying to get across. Maybe they take some notes on it, and then they just get that in their head and they go out there and they come come pretty close to improvising,

and it works for him. There should be something that allows that Stone called Steve Austin type, the Jim Cornett type, Paul Hayman, to break away and succeed expressing their own voice, in their own tone and not seeming like they're reading a script. But it's good that the system is in place because maybe most guys will never be that. And in today's wrestling, you can have two or three minutes eating up with wrestlers who literally are doing what Ray did on that day when he was sick.

and it worked for them. So, yes, what your idea is great, but you have to get to that point to not only where you are able to up with something like that and know how to tell a story with your promo and do it well, but to gain Vince's trust, and like, I think that you know a story that I told you was that when I was working with MS, eventually we walked into Vince's office and he's like, I was like, I got Missus promo and He's like, I don't. I don't need you to bring

me missus promos anymore. I trust he got to that point. So if MIS wanted to go out there and go I want to say this, he had the power to do that. I don't know if he still holds that power, but yeah, you do get to that point, and I think even Vince recognizes that and they're given that opportunity to do it. But I think Vince still wants a stranglehold on everything that's that's all put on the show

and just to know what it is. So you know, in Austin's case, it would be where I'm sure he wouldn't care what Austin said, but I think he'd still want it down on a piece of paper. So that for Vinc's reasons, he has it because John Cena was I mean, yeah, it's.

do that. So you know, if if a Stone Cold was in the w W right now and he went to Vince and said, God damn, Vince, I can't do it like this. I need to go out there and I need to feel it and I and I know what I need to get across. We've talked about it. Trust me, I think Vince.

and it's great having John on the show. I think that as often as he's been on the show, I just think, well, there won't be you know, he's probably run out of anecdotes, you know, from actual first had experience, and there were several there that I don't remember hearing before from him, and really good insights. So everybody's AVIP member, I think, gained some knowledge and they can look at that rosscript a little differently and look at the WWE

creative process with a greater level of understanding. Whether you agree or disagree with it anymore, at least you have a stronger foundation to work from when deciding if you'd like if you think their approach is the best approach to take. So on that note, with big thanks to John for he went a half hour longer than he said he could with an engagement that he had tonight, but obviously he was able to continue talking well working

his way there. I really appreciate that. And on that note, I think, first and foremost, our VIP members, your individual paid membership to PW Torch VIP, pw torch dot com slash members, is what makes it possible for us to do what we do here on the live cast, or what we do here on the VIP after show part of the live cast, and everything else we do in the entire staff, uh, day after day after day, no days off. Darren Young and I share that in common, the no days off approach to what we do here,

and we love it and we just every day. I just am feel thankful that you guys as customers enjoy what we do and what we put into it and the information we're able to bring you and a point of view and all that good stuff. So again, thank you very much and the film. Next time. Wade Keller signing off.

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