INTERVIEW CLASSIC (5 Yrs. Ago): Jon Moxley after AEW debut talks WWE creative process problems, Vince interactions, Roman crowd reactions

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bring you the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for this week's Interview Classic, where Wade Keller interviews one of pro wrestling's newsmakers five years ago. This week on the Way Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast, I interviewed John Moxley aka Dean Ambrose. This was his second long form interview and the first he recorded since his first surprise appearance for aw at Aw Double or Nothing in Las Vegas.

So this, by design is a follow up to his first interview with Chris Jericho, which had been the talk of the progressing industry for several days. So we covered some different territory. The interviews conducted on May twenty ninth, post couple days later, overall two and a half hours. This is the first half of the interview. Will drop the second half later this week.

This included how he feels about what he said on the Christierical podcast and what his goal was in saying what he said, why he thinks he's starting fresh and can't fail not chasing the fake carrot and brass ring, as he put it. Also what he already loves about the creative freedom he has experienced in AEW up to that point. How fixable is a w creative process?

Behind the scenes, details on the hurdles WWWE wrestlers have to jump through to get a promo Ono TV, Why WWE wrestlers have trouble finding their own voice on promos, and why he thinks w writer's jobs shouldn't exist. How groupthink reinforces Vince's creative proclivities, an example of where he was wrong and Vince was right. What he thinks of Triple AH as a possible replacement for Vincic Man as head of creative descripting of the First Shield promo, and on and on

and on. So many great topics covered here. This is a good one. It's worth rel listening to if you were around five years ago for it. It's definitely worth settling in and focusing on if you have never heard this before, So let's get to it again. This originally dropped on June first, twenty nineteen, five years ago today, and it is today's Way Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast. Interview Classic for Saturday, June first, twenty twenty four.

Earlier this week, the former Dean Ambrose John Moxley spoke out for the first time on Chris Jericho's podcast for nearly an hour and a half about his frustrations with WWE. I am super pleased to have with me for a special edition of the Wade Keller Prog Wrestling Podcast, A weekend interview two parter John Moxley. This is his first interview after his appearance at AW. This is his first interview where he can talk about his debut at AW double or Nothing

last Saturday night. I am pretty sure it's the longest interview he's ever done, and it might be the longest interview he ever does. He hasn't been some who's gone out there and done a lot of media during his time with WWE. He is a social media recluse. He has he is on Twitter, he has exactly he follows exactly zero people, and we talk about that

in this interview. This is going to be a blast settle in. It was kind of borderline whether I wanted to split into two parts, but it's really long ago it's, you know, two and a half hours, so We're split it up into two pretty equal chunks, and we'll drop him over the course of two days. John really wanted people have time to soak this up and and kind of absorb what we talked about, because he doesn't do this this is New Territory Forum going in depth on this kind of thing.

My intention with this interview is to not duplicate pretty much anything he said with Chris Jericho, and I actually recommend you go check out Talk Is Jericho from this past week, just a few days ago, and listen to that first. I think it's almost a necessary precursor to today's interview. Well, I was just gonnat say necessary. You're gonna enjoy the heck out of this either

way. But we do make references to things he said, and I didn't want to use up time with him having him just repeat what he had already talked about with Chris. So I recommend, if you haven't heard it yet, that you do check that out. You can listen to this first and go back and listen to that, and then listen to this again. Do whatever you want, of course, but I'm just warning you ahead of time.

The assumption in this interview in the way that I present it is that you are aware having listened to, or at least read extensive highlights of what he had to say with his colleague and a w on Chris Jericho's podcast earlier this week. This is tremendous. We get in depth on some topics that he's obviously never spoken about before, and he gets in depth on them,

including the brock Lessener WrestleMania controversy. What went wrong with that match? With the build up, he goes into our biour day by day detail of his frustrations leading into the match. He also talks about the Stone Cold Steve Austin podcast in depth. What the heck went wrong there? He explains it all. Also, what's Triple H's like to work with compared to Vince McMahon behind the scenes, and so much more I'm not even to spoil it out.

We cover a wide array of topics that that Chris and and Dean didn't get you, including his thoughts on on his aw experience, the news that he's heading to Japan in fact this weekend. He's on his way there right now as I'm recording this introduction to the interview. So we got into a lot of subjects that just weren't even on the table when he taped the Jericho interview, and we look ahead to what he's excited about with aw and New Japan

and where things go from here. This is this good stuff I think you'll really enjoy. You'll notice early on, unlike on the Jericho interview, we weren't sitting in the same room in front of a microphone with good acoustics. This was a a interview I did over the phone with him. And there's a few cell phone connection issues early. I don't know if issues is the word, but you can tell that the connection isn't a strong. Good part

is it goes away eventually and gets really solid. So don't get too discouraged if there's a few times he's talking and you wish it was a little clear. Unfortunately, the connection strengthened as we went along, so and it's not that bad, but I'm just letting you know we're aware of it. And it doesn't continue through the through the last two thirds. So anyway, I won't even tell you about all the stuff we talked about. There's way more and it's a blast. So here we go. The John Moxy Interview.

The interview was recorded for the record on Wednesday night, May twenty ninth. Enjoy part one and then hit refresh for Part two coming up tomorrow. Now, if you want to get an early listen to part two, we're gonna put part two of the interview, the second half up early for VIP members sometime Saturday afternoon or early evening, So if you don't want to wait until

Sunday afternoon or evening. Our usual time to post our interview classic every weekend, and that's when we'll post part two of this interview here on the Waight Keller Pro Wrestling podcast feed, which is available for free for everyone. You can get a chance to listen to it as early as Saturday afternoon or early evening. So another perk too VIP membership along with all the VIP exclusive podcasts.

So let's get wrong here we go. The former Dean Ambros John Moxley need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts, will come join me Alan fourrel Over in the Progress Paradise at Peterwood Torch VIP as we mask on the bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the great matches and shows from around the world, be it the US Japan, Europe or Mexico.

There's always a place for wrestlings past and the paradise too, and we've done fun historical shows such as the We Love Liger series celebrating the glorious career of Jusian thunder Lighter and our I was there when shows where our guests will join me to talk about a classic bout they were in attendance for. We love variety and you can expect lots of it at the Progress Paradise. Detailed pw Torch VIP subscription information on a list of all the VIP benefits is available at

pww torch vip info dot com. And yes, all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast apps on iPhone and Android devices, or you can stream them directly from our ad free VIP mobile site. See you in the Paradise, John Thinker taking time to talk to me. You are a subject that people are very interested in at the moment. Oh, no problem. Cool, so as listening to the Jericho podcast that you did and it created quite the buzz. First question to you is how did it feel being able to just

talk like that? Because you're not a social media guy, you haven't done a lot of interviews. What did it feel like for you to just be able to kind of express yourself in that way? A very crithartic. I've basically been doing that podcast in my head for months while I was driving up and down the roads, you know, especially a lot of times in the later a part of my DVV run, I was driving alone a lot. The Roman was out, so I'll just be like and then I'd be doing

it in my head. I always knew I can to come to Jericho with that uh and just kind of get all that get all that baggage out of the way, kind of like explain my side of the story. So I had in my head, you know, a lot of and doing it in my head. Some days it would be like a lot more venomous, and some days it will be a lot more depending on how that day went, and some days it would be a lot more nice, you know, towards

you know, w or whatever. But you know, I just hope it didn't come off like negative or bitter or anything, because like once I started going, yeah, like the emotion takes over, you know, and you get like all hypes up. So I don't think it did. What I'd listen to it back before I talk in hues now and uh, I hate listening to myself talk, but you know, I don't think him up make

it, you know. But I just basically wanted to not just be sure anything or try to like make myself look good so much they really wanted to. I realized somebody had has to like really shine a spilight on exactly what goes on backstage there because fans think they know. Yeah, people like you probably think you know, but you're not backstage, so you don't really know. So you know, I could help it out on the inside, you

know, because they all think out some kind of idiot or something. But I can share help from the outside maybe you know so, But also I saved all the money, so maybe now, well, that is something that is absolutely a point you made. It's like you feel there's so many things about the Jericknerer I wanted to kind of follow up on an expand on, and one of them was that, uh, that statement that you feel like

you're eighteen years old again. But it's not I'm paraphrasing here, but like with a big budget kind of like f you money, you can do what you want, but you're not tied down, and you have all this experience to bring with you to this next stage of your life in your early thirties

and and going forward. I thought that was a great analogy because I think a lot of us think back to the more innocent days when the yet all the choices in the world, you know what you were going to do, and to have that feeling again after years in WWE, I thought that was a real point of comment. Yeah, it's kind of the feeling that I didn't anticipate that, but that's kind of a feeling that kind of came over me. I'm like, WHOA, Like, it's kind of like starting over.

I mean, I'm not starting over. I'm starting pretty much right at the top still, you know, but I in some you know, but I could just start a whole new style from scratch, a whole new character from scratch. I could try five different things I could try, I could do all, you know, I could experiment. You know, I can't. I can't fail at anything anymore, because like when you start when you're eighteen, you know you have to, like you want to make it.

The goal is to make it as a wrestler. And I had that mentality, like everybody does, you know, Like when I was you know, people when I was a teenager, and people tell me, like, you know, you're whatever, you're where I'm from, you know, nobody gets out of there and does anything. But I was like, screw you, Like I told Jericho, I'm not an ELF. I'm a dentist and I'm gonna be double to be champion. I when did that. But like when you're a double when you're eighteen, you know you want to make it.

If so, you you'll sign any contract to anybody puts in front of you. You'll take any booking, you know, because you want to like be on TV and you want to get paid. You want money and the championships or whatever. You know. I've done all that now, So like now I don't have to be distracted by like some kind of sake like carrot you're chasing or whatever, brass rings. I don't have to be distracted by chasing

these things that are tangible accomplishments because I've already done all that. Now I can just have fun putting together awesome and wrestling stuff, you know, and AW is the perfect place to do that. AW does you talked at the end of your latest video that's up of a a paradigm shift. AW is being presented from the beginning when it was just a twinkling Cody and the Bucks

eye and talking to Tony Kahn about how to change wrestling. Your interview is in your experience with WWE is such a perfect It's your character embodies what AW represents because of the experience you're leaving and then how you're speaking about it.

And then also I think how fans are going to experience John Moxley in a w you talked about Jericho, how perfect it kind of seems timing wise to have your contract coming do being ready to leave and frustrated and committed to trying something different, even if you had to start from scratch, creating something, and then here is AAW talk about how that is feeding your ideas for your

care in AW starting at double or nothing and moving forward. It's all it's all kind of touch and go, and I like to be kind of you know, in the past few months, you know, I've just been thinking to myself, like I don't know what I don't know what I'm going to be as a wrestler. I don't know what I'm going to be the character, you know, like, I don't know how fans are going to react to me, you know, so a lot was like, I guess I'll

just figure it out as they go along. But that's usually when it's the better stuff, like, for instance, the difference between aw W after double or nothing. I told in the span of ten minutes was able to get record three different promo type things that we're all good stuff with, like with

NOE, Like it was so easy. So I told cod I texted Cody, like earlier in the day while I was hiding out, I was like, hey, make sure there's a camera that falls me back after the thing, because we're probably gonna want like backstage promo, just just a camera in the hallway whatever, you know. He's like, cool, So there's a camera waiting for me on him walking back. He goes, you, there's this promo. I'm like, I'm like, yeah, let's do it. Press record. Two minutes later, one take, say what I want to

say. There's your promo. That easy, don and done. No writers needed, no approval needed, no, you know, just that So out's supposed to be, you know, just point the camera at me and press record. I know what I'm doing. And then and there's another thing that Young Bucks had an idea for a thing for me and Joey Janella that was kind of like a TuS. He's like, yeah, maybe he is smoking a cigarette. Maybe we've seen him background. I was like, Okay,

it's cool. Maybe I grabb a cigarette phone And they're like, oh, that's cool. Okay, and joe Jell comes over, but okay, ninety seconds later we have another promo. Don and Dunk just like, hey, that's cool. That's even better cool, Okay, just set collaboration with all these cool dudes. They're just like, oh yeah, because we know what's good and what's not, you know what I mean. And there was another one I don't know if an area. It's just like comedy thing. They're

like this kind of funny and I was like yeah sure. Thirty seconds later, another one in the camp. Within ten minutes. I accomplished more than I had in the last like six months of WW. You know we're about to go to a commercial break. Why listened to commercial breaks? When you can go VIP and experience our shows with the ads and plugs removed PW Torch dot Com, slash go VP. That's pw torch dot com slash go vip for full details, or go to Patreon Patreon dot com slash pw torch.

VIP rate start as low as four dollars in ninety nine cents to remove the ads and plugs through Patreon. Full VIP membership starts at nine dollars in ninety nine cents to treat yourself to a streamlined, add and plug free listening experience with a VIP or Patreon membership. If you talked about the process in WWE and a lot of people have how frustrating and stifling it is, and you know, you're like, you even joke around with like the producers and writers.

This should take you know, three minutes, but we know it's going to take an hour. What is that so institutionalized that it can't change or is it easily fixable and ridiculously easily fixable? And if so, why doesn't it change? Why? Why in that WWEE process is it so? Why do they make it so hard? Because I mean, it is very institutionalized,

but I think it could be fixed very quickly. For instance, if I'm going to do a one minute backstage promo, they need a light, they need to find a place to do it if it's during the show. You know, we're there are like six hours for the show, and somehow we never get all these pre kates done, and we're doing during the show and we're getting busted by sound and you can only record them like during the

matches, whether there's no music playing. So but like you gotta have a lighting guy over there, you got a sound guy over there, you gotta have the all the lights set up and the you know, it takes a team of six people for some reason. And those guys are all pros and really great at their job and they make it look great. But but if like one little thing is off, then will be like, you know,

hey, you have to redo it. There many times we're like two hours ago, you did a little backstage, and then somebody will come up to me and like, since that he saw this, he wants to he saw something in the shot. He doesn't like, you got to do it again, and like now you're going over night. You can't go over your match because you got to go back and do this again. They're like, that's stupid. It would be very easy to just like be like just film it.

However, it looks like real sports. If you catch an interview with the coach at halftime in a locker room, you know, you don't somebody might walk by in the background, you know, doesn't mean the shots that you know, you still got the interview with the coach. I don't know if that's a good example, you know, but like, for instance, like those backstays, p almost have to get approved. They can get approved

by like one of the more top writers. But even after you're done, you got to sit there and wait maybe fifteen minutes for one of the top writers to come over watch it and give is okay. And he's only getting gonna give us okay if he's one hundred percent sure. You think Vince is gonna like yeah, and and uh, you know, I mentioned something on

Jericho's podcast about you know, I've never been scared I'm fired. A whole lot of the boys feel the same way that, you know, we're always pishing ideas, we're all you know, nobody's we're not scared of our jobs. That does not go for the writers and producers. Writers and producers to get fired at any second, because because somebody's ass is always on the lines for something, and you know I've gone off script before. You know what

happens. Vince chased me down the hallway in Atlanta, who literally chased me down the hallway during the show. He yelled me, you know, and then they just so then the next week if you go off script, the next week they're like more up your ass and they're making sure you don't go off script again. You know what I mean, They're watching you. So

it's almost makes your job harder. And like, like, for instance, that last few months, I get to gone off script any time I want it, whether ins fire me, you know, I could have a big part of the reason I wouldn't have is because somebody's ass would have been on the line. Yeah, Like if I go off script because I think I'm trying to be cool and do my thing, then the producer of the mask gets fired or a writer gets fired, and he might have kids and mortgage.

I'm not going to do. I can't live with myself, so I do that, you know what I mean. Somebody's ass is always on life or something. So everybody, like, you know, writers and producers are scaredness. You know, the boys are usually ones yelling at the writers and cruisers like oh gee, cayn't we just do it this way? And they're like, I don't know, you know, and that's a weird dynamic.

Yeah, absolutely are there. Do you get the sense that the writers because there's obviously scripts you've been handed and you've talked about waking up and dreading even reading the promo scripts or the ideas, and it's just bad writing. It doesn't fit your character. They don't know you. It's real obvious and it's corny. Yeah. Do you think, well, yeah, a lot of that is not the writer's fault. Not all the writers are idiots. It's

not necessarily the writer's fault. It's that their job shouldn't exist. Even the best writers can't be good at their job because their job shouldn't exist. If you need a writer to write a promo for you, you suck at your job and you shouldn't be in WWE. And there's the talent out there that's good at it, that could get over on his own merits, that should be here and not you. Do you know what I'm saying? I think their job just shouldn't exist. They like the best writer inw writer guys I

like that are idiots. They cannot write a promo for me because they're not me. It's like I was telling you the little backstage promo at at aw two minutes, one take, one camera, easy money, and here's the thing about that, and there's not me saying like this. I'm going to try now to say this arrogantly like I'm so good. It was easy. But it was easy, yeah, because it's not hard. Point I know what I want to say, Point the camera at me before if I flow

the line. Who cares? It's real time. It's like real sports, you know what I mean? Hold, Like, how many guys are capable of that is? Is the Vince McMahon in his in his circle who believe in this system. Who is their defense? Well, yeah, John, you're super talented, but we got to do with all these other guys and they don't have what you have. That doesn't excuse assigning you the same system

as other people. Or do you think, hey, to get hired in WW, you should be good at promos or have a manager and that shouldn't be a problem whatever. Only hire people who actually don't need to memorize the script. I mean, you don't have to be great at promos to be great and divid at being You know, there's plenty of successful wrestlers that weren't like the greatest in views or whatever, and you can get better at Aaron

beats and you can find your character and you can't. It's not that to be coached or to have like not necessarily a promo written for you, but maybe somebody throws you some ideas and you talk about it a little free flow. I love collaborating, you know, but having a script written for you's not collaborating. The guy's not going to get any better at coming up with his own voice if you just keep right in minds for him. Like it's

a weird thing. Like like I felt like when I got when I was in SCW, I was I felt I felt like I really got better all around in range physically because I mean I worked my ass off in FCW, because I was like I was not at the best point. I was not a really good waste in life when I was fortunate enough to get Silent Adobe,

and I was not going to waste this opportunity. So when I was in SW, I was like I was ready to go and I was hitting on working creatively with Dusty and Joey Mercury and William reveal there and like doing an angle with William Regal that this was so creative, very satisfying from like a beginning, middle and an end and it's just a piece of work.

I was hitting on all cylinders so much down there that like my confidence was such that like I was like, I can out I can out talk anybody in the world, anybody in w W. Put me a B and I'm good that I was like borderline, like arrogant, Like I was like, I'm the fucking man on the mic. Is how I thought. Whether that's true or not, it's you know, it doesn't matter because that's what I felt. And how can anyone, how can anyone ever feel that way with

all the scripts being handed to them. That's part of it. But so in the second you get to W say it's me and another guy and we're both competing for the same spot, and we're both in the promo, say I'm way better to say like I felt. What I was saying is I felt my best weapon, my biggest weapon of my arsenal was that I could

talk. And when you get to W to B that's immediately taken out of your arsenal because now the promos, this guy says this, this guy says this, this guy says this, this guy says this some stupid thing, or I'm on the stage and you're in the ring or whatever, or standing face to face in the ring trading insults and people are going ooh, but nobody's hitting each other. I hate that. Yeah, So it's like everybody

gets to put in an even playing field. So if you had like Dusty Road and his prime, Riddy Pipe and his prime, they wouldn't necessarily get the chance to be a better talker than Baron Corbyn because all the scripts are because it's scripted, you know what I'm saying. I mean, obviously they would make their stuff way better and it would shine through, you know, but like it just it marginalizes everybody. Do you know what I'm saying.

The system doesn't allow for somebody who might be and who might excel at authentic sounding promos, do even have a chance to figure out if that's something they can do. Yeah, Steve Austin comes into dado W. Steve Austin and at prime comes into adode B in twenty nineteen. You don't have Austin three sixteen, yep, you know. And in fact, it took him going to ECW. I mean there's a million million other examples, you know.

Yeah, And it was Steve being kind of unleashed from the corporate television environment and going to ECW and being produced by Paul Hayman and just letting loose and all of a sudden he found his voice and he brought that with him to WW exactly. So, I mean, this isn't a new concept. I'm not saying anything to you. I didn't say anything to Jericho. That's some kind of revolutionary, groundbreaking way of thinking. People have been saying this for

like fifteen pointy years, you know, and you paid the timeline. I mean, it seems like it was around two thousand and two, you know, because Vince had Vincent matt At, Vince rousonet ferraras his main writers, and when they gave notice, or they didn't give notices, when they just quit, he was just left with nothing. And I think that defined him, or that that triggered him going, I need to have a lot of

writers so I'm never too dependent upon anyone. And then I think other things happened too, you know, lack of competition, stefinitely wanted to make a mark. They kind of got rolling with the outside the wrestling business writer's idea and it just manifested and what you kind of walked into when you arrived. Yeah, I mean you could directly correlate the sale of WCW. I never

really thought about the two guys you just mentioned. I don't know, maybe that to correlate to you directly correlate that with me in twenty eighteen having these stupid, embarrassing conversations with us the man and then talking having this conversation we'll happen right now, you know, and the lack of competition and just this system he built around himself. You know, in twenty twelve, NXT transitioned

into the developmental system and ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly look at this page in NXT's early history. Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to the day to track

NXT's rising talents and why they did or didn't work out. Exclusively for PW Torch VIP members so, how many guys feel how many wrestlers in w B feel men and women feel like you do that they're just in a system that isn't letting them actually express their actual voice. Are you caught? Do you think it's the vast, vast majority? Or do you think some of them are kind of happy showing up and getting handled a script They past the hallway,

memorize it, and then regurgitate it and catch their check. Is there some of that too? I think every everybody's different, everybody's a different place in their life. Everybody's doing this for different reasons. Everybody's yes, not everybody gets treated like total craps. Yeah, they know how to book people strong when they want to book them strong, you know. So so I so there's probably a lot of people that are very happy. I mean,

there's probably some people that are just totally happy. They're just read the script or they don't care whatever. And there's probably some people that feel like me. And there's probably some people that, like one of my good friends there like are truth. He's just happy all the time. Whenever you give them He's just like, let's do it. Man's like he could. He just

he's totally down the clown me, he's whatever. And there's some people that like there's and there's a lot of people who like I feel like I always trying to be like grateful and stay humble and stay positive and not be like a negative person. You know. Probably sometimes I was because a lot of people who are just like complain to his complain, you know, and they

just they read the scripts and all stuff too. It's always you know, people who just bits and don't like really try to like do the best or whatever. I never wanted to be like that. I mean, ever, everybody's different, you know, And working in WW is better than like waying tar in the summer each for ten bucks an hour, you know what I mean. Like you're still living your dreaming on TV. You know what I

mean. You but for me, I just got it, you know, well, you know, and I think I mean when you talk about your you know, when you go back to just wanting to be a wrestler and for as long as you can remember and as soon as you were uh eighteen, you're you're wrestling, and it's what you want to do, and it's what you think about. That's the artist. And I don't think not everybody wants to be an artist. Some people want to be led. There's nothing

wrong with that. If you were inw just for the money, there's nothing wrong with that. This is a business, you know. I'm just not like that with that. Do you do you have like is it ninety of wrestlers in b are artists who don't just want to do what they're told and collect their paycheck or is there a pretty diverse mix. I'd say it's a diverse base. Ma. I mean, like I said, everybody's different from perks in their lives, different situation, different characters, some people who are

probably very happy with the characters, you know, some thing. It's all different. Some people are learning get better, some people are Some people are going to be cute stars that haven't broken out yet, that haven't found the thing that people were going to be, like whoa, We didn't know that guy was gonna be who star? We didn't expect that or girl? You know, So it's I think it's it's everybody's different. You know. I can only speak to myself. I can only give my experience. I want

to ask about Vince McMahon. You talked about your dealings with him. How did how did that relationship with him develop and evolve or devolve and change over time? Like talk about some of your your early impressions of him. Were you intimidated? Was he different than you expected? I know, Roman talked to Jericho a couple of years back about the Shield over time, feeling like they had a little more, a little more agency to maybe speak up about

things. Then early on did was that kind of a track that you can remember following too, where at first you were just Okay, it's Vince. I got to do what he says, and then slowly you had thoughts that differed, and then eventually you express them. Talk about that evolution. At first, everybody's kind of intimidated by Bins because he's this mythical figure, you know, and you know, to talk to him, you got to like go into his office. He's like the Wizard of Oz. You know.

Early on we dealt a lot with more just directly with Triple H you know, and early on we weren't, you know, given our you know, we tried to just go with flow a living well we're not really we're actually kind of like gifts early on because we were trying not to get you know, we didn't know how I was going to go. But for me personally, when I was on my own, uh, you know, they always tell you it's very important to have a relationship with Vent. You gotta go

in, you gotta talk to him, you know. So I was always like okay, and I found and there's like ten layers that you have to go through to get anything improved. Ultimately, everything comes down of its what fits, wants and everybody. Some people are scared, like producers and stuff. They don't want to go in and pitch this new idea. They just want to do what FN's told, Like Vince says we're going to do this.

They just want you to go along with it because they don't want to have to go back in and try to you know, unless they kiel strongly or whatever. So when I've I got frustrated going like waiting for answers like which way are we doing it? What are we doing We're doing Option A or oscing be and like well, waiting to hear back from Vince. I

would just go. Once I realized I'm just gonna go ast this, and I just started going in on the rigs and just going like and at least I'll get an answer even if if we're doing I want an option A and we're doing option B at least not like just no, and now I can work on option B. And I found that, like once you just straight to Vince and just hear from the horse's mouth, then you don't have to go through these different layers of people to get an answer, you know.

So that's kind of how I started, just kind of going straight to him, and like we've always had a good friendly relationship, you know, uh, even even to the end, you know, unless we were butting heads about ideas and stuff, you know what I mean, But uh, yeah,

I just it's fun. And it was funny though, because like if ever he's telling you, like no, we can't do that, we can't do that, that's stupid, And then you don't find them as a lost Vince and the us Vince, and Vince is like I love it, and Vince likes your idea, and you come on, so the Vince isn't doing it in my way? Then everybody changes there too. Then everybody's like, oh and then all of a sudden, your idea is a great idea in

the world. You know, it's just all what it's wants, so you know I was sounded just easier whether I won or lost that argument to just go straight to him well. The Weight Keller Progressing post shows and Weight Killer Progressing podcasts. Anytime you're watching w w E Raw or SmackDown or aw Dynamite in parta Killer, send us an email if you've got thoughts on the show or a topic you want us to address or a question for us. Wade

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dot com. Did your oppression events change over time as you left your twenties and entered your thirties, as you became a veteran of the locker room, as you had ups and downs with him? Or did was it kind of the same from early on you went it, you talked to him, and you guys just had a certain dynamic and it it was pretty static. It stayed same the whole time you were there. Well, for instance, I

always I'm actually like, Vince always liked me. Yeah, even it's like he's asked me to do something that I didn't want to do and I was trying to get out of it and I'll lose the argument, go do it

and then pull it off. It kept it like we're always like he always like and he has over over the years liked a lot of my ideas, you know, and it's gone with it, you know, sometimes occasionally, but like towards the end, and especially like in the last few months and especially now looking back, I always like kind of picture myself like I'm more on Vince's guys because he likes me. Now I'm like, looking back at it, I'm like, Vince is like the problem. Vince himself is the

problem. It's a shame. I am not trying to like turn them down when I say this. I'm trying to help situations if you can at least, you know, or at least I mean, I'm not gonna be able to help it, you know. But I'm telling you that's a problem. I was just there. I know the ins and outs. He's a problem. And it's a shame because there's so much great talent. There may have never been more talent there. All the wrestlers are awesome, there's so many,

so many people. It's some's charisma and somebody s's talent and just it's the pool of talent is incredible, and the resources they have and all the television and the network and all this stuff. It should be like, it should be so great. And the one guy who's screwing it up, I think is Vince. I mean NFDE. Everybody seems to like NFD. I've never been there, I've never worked like, I've never been around like NFT

takeover to see like how those days go. So I can't speak on how they're how like I can speak on a day in the life of me like I did, But I can't tell you how it is acts team, But everybody seems to like the show and what's the what's the key ingredient? Just missing? Yeah, you know, so, I mean he's he's the guy who created wrestling. But I feel like now he's a guy who's really holding

he's holding his own company back. You know, he used to like, yeah, maybe just step aside, take a break, going a fishing and can't. That's what you know. He just doesn't don't want to. He doesn't work like that. But like, maybe maybe take for a month. Maybe there's what Hunter run things for a month and Jesse, what happens?

You know, maybe you know, maybe he'll I don't know. Do you sense that there's deep admiration and reverence for Vince among wrestlers or do you think the more common thought is is your stance that he actually at this point. People might have different ideas of when it when it occurred or when when it became the case, but that he is the problem. I I mean, I don't want to speak to everything else. And it's not a lack of and I have all the respect in the world for events, because nobody works

harder, put the more effort. And obviously I have nothing gratitude to a dot to be, but you know, it's supposed to be genius. And I like early on since had a couple of things where like the example before, I was wrong and this was right, and I was like oh, you're right. Yeah, I am as seth wrong. And it was like it was a summer plant, one of the first big match, right, and I'm it's trying to build to a moment where like I've got him more. I want him to beat him, but I'm going to punish him first

crimes. And that's why I guess who Yeah, which sounds ridiculous now. I wanted to take up of buyers from none of the ring and tools and then grab him and like go like I was gonna get his tongue out. I said, it was my idea. Yeah, it wasn't that. It was something close to that, because I was trying to ask her, like what would he falls something I could do to him that was like, now you're gonna get it, you know, Yeah, that's not a good idea, but I thought it was a good idea at the time, and I

was convinced that it was a good idea. Right, So we going, We're going eventually pitch him our idea and he's like, no, that's too much or whatever, and I'm like, damn it. And so he's like, well, what else can we do? And he thinks about it, and he signed him for thirty seconds. Then he goes, could your curb stop him? And we're both in me and said the light bulb goes over, and we're like, that's perfect. Why didn't we think about that?

Because he been like curb stumping me in the week's previous. So I'm like, that's the ultimate poetic thing. And it was the most over thing in the match, Like it was great, it was so perfect, and we're both afterward like damn, Vince. Oh he can pulled one out of his hat. He's still the man. He's still genius, you know what I

mean. Every once in a while there's one of those. I always try to give him the benefit of a doubt, or even though I go to the ring and I told him this when I talk to somebody, even when I go to the ring and I think that this idea sucks, but is Vince's idea. I'm gonna try my best and I might be wrong. Maybe Vince was right, And every once in a while you're like, oh that did work, huh, But also probably more often than not. And I told him this, I said, I go out there and I go,

Nope, I was right. This idea just sucks, you know, So I always try to give him the benefit of the doubt that like he's Vince, he created wrestling, he's the genius. Like maybe he knows I'm just an idiot. Maybe he knows better than me. I hope that he does. But over time, especially looking back and in the last few months I had, I didn't see a lot of this genius that is Vince McMahon.

I think he was in like the eighties, he was a genius when he created Hull Comania and he took over all the territories and he FORESDAW Cable Television that he was a genius in twenty nineteen, I don't think he knows what's going on, you know, so you need to figure it out or step aside and let somebody knows what's going on do it. How do you feel

about Triple Ahs. We talked about working with him more early on with the Shield, and he has looked at as the when you look at the NST products, which I'm a huge fan of takeovers, a huge fan of NXT and that presentation of wrestling is that does that translate? Is Triple achic guy? You think would he already said let him take over for a month, But do you have confidence that he has what it takes to take this gigantic machine that is WWE on the main roster and succeed. I mean, who

else is there? You know? I mean he's clearly been preparing for this, like when Vince isn't there. He's the guy you defer to, you know, so you know he's got You've got good ideas. His ideas are his ideas. But he's a lot more. You know, he's very cerebral. You know, he's not like a super open collaborative like, oh cool, do this, do that? Do that? Thinks about stuff a lot, But I mean, I just think it's a much better option between the

two of them. Yeah, if it's Sunday, it's Wrestling Night in America on PW Torchdailycast dot com. Join me, PW torchcalumnus Greg Parks and a rotating lineup of co hosts as we focus our conversation on the big shows in pro wrestling. We also take phone calls and emails live on the air, taking the pulse of the wrestling fan base. You can listen live on Sunday

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PW torch Daily Cast lineup at pw torch dailycast dot com. Are there philosophical things with Triple H that that you think would would overhaulwe when it comes to the things that you had the most problem with, which is wrestlers having the creative freedom to be themselves and be authentic and steer their character in the ways that they wanted them to go. Even if the big even if the outline structure, we want you as a face facing this heel and here's kind of

a story arc for four months. We want to land at SummerSlam with with a blowoff. Now you guys go figure it out. Is and do you think Triple A should be more along that line or would He's still micromatics, but just be a better micromatic. I think he would be more open and given people more freedom. But I think but he's also It's also he's smart and he sees things his way. So if he sees you doing something and he envisions a better way, he'll come over and be like, you know,

let me ask the question, maybe we could do this way. And a lot of times you're like, oh, that's even cooler, you know, because you know he sees television and he does. You know, he's the closest thing I guess to vince that we have, you know, so you know, I mean you had to ask somebody in NXT that you know is around that just system, you know, to like too for me to give you a real yea of what it would look like, you know, but generally guys who were around him in NXT, who you've worked with and

been close to and collaborated with. It's not like, oh, think they would be worse with Hunter, you know, count your blessings. Vince is still alive. You never hear that. Yeah, but I mean it's it's not like he wouldn't be like it's a free for all now, you know, because a lot of times you'll explain to You're like, there's I wanted to do stuff. Well He'll be like, no, we can't do that, and I'm like, why not you I don't want to like bleed everywhere

or whatever whatever it is. And he'll be like or say something that He'll be like, well, if we do that, I understand you think it's cool, but we will lose a ten million dollars sponsor. And I'm like, if that's kind of hard to argue, cool five, you know what I mean. Okay, I guess it. So he's not you know, he's so it wouldn't be like a free for all. But I mean maybe

it'd be better. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. You talked a lot with Jericho about your frustrations for individual ideas that were more recent during the time that you were in the Shield. The majority of the time talk about

how that how that dynamic evolved. It took a while for you know, Seth to become the architect and everybody kind of because at first I thought you were the vocal leader and you were the guy who when when you had the mic and you were talking, everyone kind of stopped what they were doing because

it seemed like you, to me were the architect of the presentation. And how did that change and how did that dynamic work, especially as Step gained experience and Roman became the air apparent to the top spot that Fince wanted to feature. I think I did a lot of talking in the beginning, just because I think I was the most comfortable talking. Yeah, So like and I think they, uh, I mean, we were just reading scripts,

so you know. So it's like, man, I remember, like the first day, they never gave us see I've done a whole of two hours. I guess so many these curtain stories. So like the first day we ever cut of Tromo and over the shield and we didn't sit down interview with Cold and we're like, okay, cool, and I'm coming up with a deer sport, like we can say, like we really know what we're going to be. You know, we know where the shield we're you know,

we have the outfit. You know, it's very exciting. You know, we're coming up with gimmick and we're creating on our own, and this is script and it's like this sucks about stuff about like the board at directors. It's like I can't really make any sense to it. You know, I'm like, okay, but at this point I'm so naive. I don't think we really have to say the script. I think there's just like a suggestion. Because even though I was in CW, you hear about less scripted promos

and I kind of just thought it was just my nanty. I just thought that was like turning a phase, like oh yeah, you know scripted promote. It's not. They were talking about like the formats of the shows and that we put promo and like some suggested Jim Burbis, I didn't think you actually read the scripts. That blew my mind. And I remember like so we're like, yeah, maybe we'll say something like this, and the writer like, no, you say this is what you're gonna say. I'm like

yeah, but I mean I had this idea. What and he's like, no, this is what are you gonna say and you know, the writer one right, don't want to take pire or whatever. But it was very clear to us we were just saying exactly what was on the script. And I remember kind of just like distant, sinking feeling in the back of my brain like, oh, no, you've made a terrible mistake. It really means scripted promost, you know. And the first ever in ring promo he

did. I remember very well because I was pretty nervous, because like, you can put me in front of twenty other people that I'm not nervous at all. I'm probably more comfortable in that scenario than just sitting here talking to somebody like let them know, or like being in front of the room with people, you know, if I was doing my thing. But I never memorized the script and read it. You know, I'm not an actor, but like I'm fairly nervous about this, right, And it's like I have

a line that says that line. Then he's got a lot, you know, and so I'm like, all right, we got we memorized the hell out of the script. We go up to rafter memorize and script. You know, I got stripped in my pocket. You know, we come out and we delivered to the key and we're all high five and after all we're like when they have that promo first didn't ring promo? All right? And it felt like how good to be like talking in front of the full arena for the first time, you know, And I was like, yeah,

all right, good feeling. And then like as the dust sttle a little than adrenaline wear left, I was like, what were we talking about? And I don't know, I'm like, what what do we even really just say? I can't really tell you what we just said. I mean, that was like the first promo I ever cut in the ring, you know,

yeah, with the shield and the evolution of it. Did it Did you ever feel proud of the micwork of the promos of the Did you ever have enough input where you felt like you were you guys were able to steer something in a different direction than what was handed to you at the beginning of the day. A couple uh, A couple in there, Yeah, I

did. I did it, like I don't know. One time, it's like the uh one time he was like it was me versus step again and do a promo in the ring, And it was like looks pretty good because like I think road Dogs answer me, He's like, yeah, I want to do like almost like a shoot promo kind of thing or you say something like that, and I'm like okay, So I like get with the writer and I tell him everything I want to say and he writes it down and it's still a script, but at least it's coming from me. But it

was like exceptionally better than anything I would normally do. And it was like backstage people were like, oh my god, and Evince like Vince came up with hugged this faulty like throwney, you know, and I'm like, I'm gonna say, road I'm like, so much easier it is, and you just let me say what I want to say, you know. I mean, I can't remember. It's just the promo, you know. But it was like one of the good ones. You know. Some of the stuff me and uh, some of the stuff me in set did on the well

we met him, initially got back together. It was like a couple of weeks story and then eventually meet him like we right then we put the fist together for the first time. Yeah, and a place when bananas you never hear pop like that for just two dudes sticking their hands out. You know, a lot of that stuff was pretty good. You know that was a

little scripted, but it was still pretty good stuff. You don't have to wait for the way Keller Prog Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show, and it will also analyze key segments and give my random thoughts quips on

what I am watching as it airs. So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night at pewtorch dot com. That also applies to WWE pay per views. I cover those live at pw torch dot com with a detailed written report with star ratings, and of course you can find other TV reports from other contributors to pw torch such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling, and more. Check it out pw torch dot com your first stop for TV and pay per view written reports. If you look back at the Journey of the Shield,

do you ever or your journey in WWE. Do you ever wonder what would have been different if the Shield was informed and you came in as Dean Ambrose but not part of the Shield, And if that would have been better or worse or you have no idea, it's probably worse, Yeah, because here's why. Like for instance, when I uh, I was originally going to come in and do a thing with Nick Foley, which I was so excited about. Yeah, and we started it. We started like a little

online war and everything, and it was gonna little buzz you know. I wasn't named, so nobody knew it was, you know, but it turned out fully And if he was injured, he would never wrestle again, so he couldn't get cleared d wrestle. So it didn't happen. So I sat on the shelf for a while waiting for the Shield to come along. Now, in my mind, this thing with me and fully was the greatest angle of all time. Like I had all the promos in my head. I

can't imagine awesome promos Nick had in his head. And if we had got together and started coming up with like I mean, dude, in my mind, this is like this is gonna be the greatest angle of all time, like this is gonna be class I'm gonna have a classic feud right off the

bat. But what would have happened, which I didn't know this at the time, was all I came in and they would have given me a script and I would have been like what And I would have reacted poorly, and it would have been like this guy can't, he can't, he's not He's no good if he doesn't get it because I went you know what I mean? Yeah, it would have been It wouldn't have been me and mixed just like cutting promos doing our thing. It would have been scripted by like some

stupid writers. And then I would have been like I would have reacted poorly to these scripts. And then right off the bat they were said I had a bad at Sue and they were shit candy. Is what would happen? Probably maybe who knows. You know, you can't really speculate how much did seth And and Roman and you keep each other sane from a creative standpoint, or did you guys like was one of you did one of you talk the other one off the cliff for going crazy a lot? Or was it one

guy in particular, everyone took turns. I mean I had when the Shield, when we were the Shield originally, I hadn't started going crazy yet because like we knew we had all this stuff in the future. Yeah, you know, yeah, so like everything was pretty positive back then, you know for the most part. Okay, yeah, it just just still seemed like we had this whole future ahead of us, you know, so there was no you know, we're just trying we're still just trying to like it was

still new. You know, We're starting to make money for the first time. We're like we're starting to climb the ladder. We were starting to become bigger fixtures, like in the locker room and becoming like guys that are relied upon more. And it's just like it's it's it's still like really fun. You know, we're experiencing all this different stuff for the first time. You

know, what, was there someone in the locker room. It doesn't even have to be at the very beginning, but it could be who was a go to person for you that that you were able to be talked, you know, talk down from situations when you were upset, or gave you good advice. Did that person exist for you or did you just kind of have to go go off on your own and just kind of vent and recover from the frustrations. I mean not really, because everybody's dealing with their own everybody's

got their own problems. You know. Like one guy that always get one guy who always you know, like uh, gave me good advice and like always was always working to make things better a lot the same way I was with Hericho. Yeah, Like Jericho will sit outside Vince's offers for forty five minutes and make sure he like puts in the work to make sure he gets and sometimes he wins, sometimes he loses, you know, same as me. And I always try to like be like that. And he gave me,

you know, good advice about how to talk to Vince. You know, don't talk to events while he's eating. He won't pay an attention to

you. Stuff like that. Yeah, we won't. Guy. You know, going back to Vince for a second, you talked about the feedback that that you would get, and he would give positive feedback when he liked the way something went did was that folk did he have an equal amount of focus or a considerable amount of focus on match quality and the story told in the ring, or was it focused on other things like you know, you talk about you talked to Jericho about you know how Tony Kin's a wrestling fan and

Evince is kind of a sports entertainment businessman who maybe lost touch with aspects of being a fan. Was he a fan of just a really good wrestling match or was it all about the creative storylines and the prescripted promos with him? If you tell him us story, you know, if you uh, you know, work the leg and then go back to the leg, or there's an angle, or there's somebody at ringside, I don't know, whatever, whatever it is, as long as it's like a story, he's into it.

He doesn't care about the moves or the like wrestling wrestling, he doesn't care about I've seen so many times like dudes who go out there and tear it up and have this great what I think is a great wrestling match and do a bunch of high spots or whatever, and then he was just tar to shreds and be like, you guys sucked. I was terrible. It's worst much I've ever seen. Like you wouldn't believe some of the stuff that he just buries and the people that he just rides so hard that they'd be

like, what I thought that was awesome? You know. But but he's got his own taste, you know, and if if you don't give him exactly his taste, and you know, well the Weight Teller Progressing post shows and Weight Killer Progressing podcasts. I'm Chris Maitland and I'm Justin McClelland we host Wrestling Coast to Coast, where we scour the wrestling scene to find the best

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about bad referees and justin bemoaning dog pole fins. Don't forget my feudal search to see a blue Thunderbomb win a match. How can. I like the name says we cover the hottest independent promotions from around the country, so just as Prestige Action, West Coast, Pro, Revolver and Beyond Wrestling. Actually, Chris, I think we stick pretty much to wrestling. No, I mean Beyond Wrestling out of Worcester, oh right. Our show's part of the

PW Toys Daily Cast lineup and typically drops on Thursdays. W torch in your podcast app and subscribed to the PW Torch Daily Cast or stream our shows directly from PW touch dot com. Find full details on the PW Torchdailycast lineup at Pwtorchdailycast dot com. Do you do people say Vince is different than he used to be or he's just a slightly more exaggerated version of what he's always been.

I think it's probably what he's always been. That the world has changed drastically around him, you know, and just the business and the product has changed, like three hours of raw Like they get why they do it, they get paid, but I don't. It's just it's too much. It like dilutes the hell out of the products, and I mean having like there's just so much products raw SmackDown to a blah By. It's like all this it just gets diluted after a while, especially when it's all produced and all

look the same. Yeah. You know, Daniel Brian talked about showing up at TV and dreading. You know, dreading is finding out what part of the show he's going to be on, because you know the crowd is going to be burned out by the time you get to that third hour, and that just void after the opening segment in the third hour. Yeah, and like there's geez, I mean and like the opening segments from fifteen minutes promos

and stuff. But I mean it's like, also, I don't know how to fill three hours every single week with good stuff because you can only give him so much wrestling, because even the biggest wrestling thing can only watch so much wrestling, So you end up giving away all these pay per view matches on TV. Like I just like, go back to an hour. I don't know, gee, I don't know the answer. You know, I'm not a genius I can tell you how to fill it. I don't know

what you should fill that three hours with. But three hours is the hell of a lot of time to fill. Smack Down is much more manageable because it's only two hours. Yeah, And like, one thing I always thought was like they retread the same matches over and over and over, and well, one problem I never had that a lot of guys that are being the worst position than me that I can ever complain about is that some guys just don't ever get used. I was always at least doing something. Yeah,

Like there's some guys that just sit there and just don't get used. But the guys that are getting used get like overused. You see the same matches that are like pay per view quality matches, but you see it's three weeks in a row, the same opponents and stuff, and they just just keep

throwing. So it's like I always thought, like, why don't they do instead of like doing me versus Ray Wyatt and then doing it again the next week, why don't they do like me versus Ray Wyatt and then go, Well, we're gonna show you what happened with Bray White and Indian Ambros. Last week. We'll get to that, won't when we come back this week. Tyler Breeze is in action. Yep, that's then named Bray White at home, so we get extra day off. Yeah, and Let Tyler Braes

have a week on Raw. We have all this talent, but you know, white white, give Tyler Breeze a shot. He's just sitting back there. What do you put him on the main event every bring week? You know why? Why? Because whether it's me or Seth or whoever, Kevin Owens or whoever's doing the same long matches every week with the same opponents, Drew McIntyre, we'd be totally cool with that, like, hey, oh, if I don't have to, we're gonna twenty minute match our role.

As much as we like doing that, if you do it three weeks in a row, you'd be happy to give somebody else a shot. Let somebody else get in there. You know, your body's banged up after a while. You know, TV is the last day of the week, So some of us by the time we get to Monday, we're banged up. And you're like, oh, I hope I just have a promo and they're like, nope, you're in a ladder match, Like oh my god. You know, and we'd love to be like, hey, we're sending you all.

We're giving Tyler Breeze or Chad Gable or whatever. We're giving them a shot this week. Paula Cruz is going to be to main event. Why not? I don't know. I don't know if that's good. Why not? You know, we got all this talent exactly, that's just an idea and they can't get over if they don't have TV time. And in what sucks is there's matches that should be special and are great that fans end up

presenting because they just see too much of it. You know, the novelty is gone, and that's not fair for you know, Kevin Owens and Sammy's Aim, you know, wrestled each other. However, many weeks in a row it felt like it's like this is a great feud in NXT, and it can be still a great feud, but there's still little variety because Vince Lean's on the same guys. That it takes something that should be special and makes it causitive to be less special in the eyes of the fans, which

just isn't fair or productive to anybody. Yeah, I get that. Like when I was a kid, like I mean raw, it was like an hour or Superstars or whatever. But like if Brett Hart was wrestling on TV, it was like a big deal. Yes, feeling. Wrestle on pay per views, you get interviews from Brett Hart, but like Brett Hart's gonna have a match this week against Rad Ratford. They're like, oh, I

am tune in Bretts on this week. Yep. So it's going to be like you only see Rome Range once a month restle on TV like rollan or or less. But also you've got that three hours to fill. I don't know, So I don't know the solutions. I know it's a predicament, you know, well, yeah, but I mean if into the genius, he should be able to get more than you know, eight guys over at a time, and get sixteen guys over, so you can rotate who's made

of venting and filling those twenty minute matches. Yeah, And the argument will be like, well, it's episodic storytelling. We can't just give up this story and throw paul A Cruz Versutibreeze out there. You know, yeah, why not? I don't know, maybe conditioned the audience that everybody's importantly you know then, like you know, I mean the UFC, for instance, I'm a big MMA fan, right, I watch anything any combat sport of any sort if it's on I'm watching it. If it's on at noon from

a different cunt time zone, I'm watching them on my phone. I watch it all because I just enjoy watch. But like two guys you never heard of might have the best fight of the night. You know, it happens all the time. And then they're like, Dan, you see that guy in that fight and they made their name, you know, so why not throw some of those guys on it all and just see what happens? How many people have just that You didn't know how many people have you seen them

for the first time? And by the end of the match, you're like, oh my god, that guy's awesome. You know, yeah, first time raymiss Cerial, it's like coasts walked into the area. Everybody's probably like, who are those guys? And then twenty minutes later, oh my god, raymisterio is coolest thing I've ever seen? Yes, exactly, why not? And it does seem like, you know, a RICOCHETV show up and

dazzle people. And then six weeks later fans have kind of figured out this guy is just going to be at this level and that journey isn't there where the wins and losses on TV lead that wrestler somewhere until Vince de sides, and sometimes he does, but sometimes he doesn't, and the viewers thus are less engaged in watching a match on TV unless it's part of one of the three or four storylines that Vince is invested in at that moment. Yeah, exactly. I mean there is a lot of problems, man, and I

don't know the solution to them. But the cool thing is they ain't my problems anymore. No, they're not. Give yourself a reason to look forward to going to the mailbox each week with a PW Torch newsletter paper copy Subscription

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com slash paper copy. I want to see about Roman Range and the polarizing reaction, as WWE would would say, you know, categorize it and frame it as how much did that affect you guys like that, there's how the crowd supposed to respond, and then in a lot of cities, especially pay per view and TV cities, it would be a different response than than they than they were going for. It followed John Cena. They made a lot

of money with him. Was that a scene as a problem that was where a solution was being sought out or was it just it is what it is and we're going to keep pushing forward. I think they definitely probably hoped that that would stop, But you knew it was going to happen from because as soon as everybody realized when did the shield, everybody loved him. Yeah, yeah, it was the hottest thing. I please booked like a mo through and they lost him, you know, But as soon as everybody realized,

oh, he's getting like the tap on this show. But like he again, you know, he was always the guy, you know. But as soon as people realize that, then they all decided beforehand while it's gonna turned on kind of thing because they don't like that for whatever reason. Like, but seeing their create I think seen it did at first, and then Roman walked into it. You know, they were like, oh, it's the

scene a thing. Yes, I guess, I mean, I don't know, you know, did it seem like it was something that could be fans could be steered in a different way if Roman was presented in a different way. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I mean this times they suffer and stuck attash, you know what I mean. I remember that day. Do you think he wanted to say that? No, he he went in there and was like what and he came out and he was like, he wants me to say stuffer and suck atesh. And I remember kind of laughing

like two's you can't say that. He's like he wants me to say it. He's like, what is there a cool way to say it? I was like, what if you look at the camera and say like, well that wasn't easy to say or something. I don't know. That's one example. I mean, his personality is so great. He's just such a great dude. Like everybody loves him. He's the most lovable guy in the world. He's like he's the guy everybody gravitates to in the locker room, you

know, just because he's a he's a natural just charisma and stuff. But they don't let him just be himself. They try to like make him and he tried he before. I mean when in the initial years ago, you know, he was trying to be what they wanted him to be or whatever, you know. But like he's also they're like, dude, you're the

guy, you know, and they're giving him the spot. You know, He's not going to reject everything, you know what I mean, He's gonna try his best, you know, and he always has, you know, and it's never a cool thing. Is Like, I'm really glad that he was like legion our best friends because like we ride in the car, like even when we were in like competition so to speak, I never had because I love him so much that I couldn't like resent him or anything. Like

if he was a guy that I wasn't friends with that I hated. Yeah, I'd probably resent the hell out of him, you know, because there are many times where I felt like I had a stronger connection with the audience than him, but it didn't matter, you know, right, but like he was my best friend, so like it's not like it would have never

come between us. You know. Did you ever have ideas for Roman that were like, oh, if we could just get this to events, get through to events on this, whether you're working with Roman or when it was Roman is doing singles work, We're like, this would this would change things. This would take the guy backstage that everybody loves and gravitates to, and it would translate to TV if they would if because he talked about that.

I don't know if he saw it, but the there was a documentary WrestleMania season on his comeback chronicles and he said, you know, Vince, this is Roman talking. Vince and I came up with this Roman Reigns character and we've been kind of, you know, following that script for a while and that lane. But now with this real life situation and people looking at me differently, I want to present more Joe and and it felt optimistic like, hey, he's gonna go somewhere else. But if you're watching TV now,

it's it's the same. It's the same as it was a year ago. Yeah. Yeah, I had to ask him, you know, yeah, I guess. I mean, with your creative thoughts on yourself and the system, did you did you did you ever see what you thought might be a solution to get in the fans to see the real Joe that you also ran into brick walls on Well. I mean many times when we'd be riding in the car or whatever, and I'd just be like, that's and he would

like, cut promo in the car and I'm like, that's awesome. Yeah, that's what we say tomorrow, Like it's not you know what I mean, or you like and then and then and he's like going, and I'm like, that was awesome. Man, you got to say that tomorrow and he maybe you get to maybe they say no, you guys say this, Yeah, but if the same problem, it's the same thing for everyone, you know. Yeah, again, not my problems anymore. You talked about

the ni Jack's situation. Well, fastward to that. I'm here and I'm curious if you had an idea there was an endgame for that if where where that was headed and if that got derailed because of the press release and uh, we're getting out that you weren't renewing, and that kind of triggered them to change what they were going to do with that because the crowd response would be different knowing since they would know that you were leaving. Yeah, I

mean, I guess that's why they can it all. Yeah. I mean I don't know all the plans or he told me kind of, but I wasn't really paying attention, you know, because I was like just my mind was going in a million different directions. But uh, and then it got canned like really quickly. But I had like I was, I was ready to do it. I was. I was like okay, yeah, because I had people that you know, I'm closed to, uh, you know, were like just do whatever they ask. Don't do anything to breach your

contracts. You know. I had some people tell me like, now they're going to push you to breach your contract, yeah, so that they can tie you up. You got to just get to the finish line. So I was ready to do whatever. I don't know how we're supposed to do this, like me cutting promos about like punching women in the face when like my feminist herod wife is on commentary. I didn't know how we were gonna do with that. Yeah, I mean, but I had some ideas,

you know what I mean. I was working out the house and mess the mead. I was going like, okay, and nothing else. At least, I'm not really gonna have to take a lot of bumps. There's gonna be like a stick pash. I'm like, this would be an easy few months, no bumps, All right, let's do it. That might have been eat. I would have been a hell of a lot easier in my body than throwing through tables and stuff every night like I ended up doing.

Can you figure out why once thing else you were leaving that it became like the Dean Ambrose going away to her and you were celebrated and the shield was celebrated and all the pain at the end wasn't very good for the final shield apparance. That was funny, funny for me, not for you. But what we do you understand what their mentality was in the way that they framed

you. Did they just feel like we need to babyface the situation? So fans don't resent us because we're already going to be embarrassed in as choosing to leave even though we want him, So we have to make it seem like we're on great terms. I mean, that's the best I can come up with as a rationale. I yes, partly, I never asked. Yeah. I think probably a lot of it too, is like they're realizing that and they're just guessing here. So maybe they're realizing, like the shield was

gone. Now now we're not just losing him, now we're losing the whole act because you can't do it with only two of us. So like, maybe they were just trying to milk every last sent out of I mean, they are at least a freaking T shirt on, like my last night. Yeah, you know that, maybe they were just trying to milk every last

scent out of that, you know. I guess maybe I don't know, but it was it was it got like awkward because they kept having me to come out and say go buy the crowds, so like, yes, totally, and I'm like, and I didn't want to sing. I didn't. I didn't the whole time. Until I talked to Jericho, I hadn't said a word to anybody about anything, because I didn't want people to know what I was doing. I didn't want people to know if I was retiring,

or if I was going somewhere else or I was coming. I wanted people to think I was probably just going to come back to Dovvie. So maybe even more shocked when I showed up someplaceself. I think probably on some level a lot of people probably didn't really believe it until they saw people thought it

wasn't work because they treated you so well. Yeah, I was hoping that, like the video I released, because it was so well done, I was hoping that people were going to think they'ble to be produced it and I was just going to come back as like a different character. Yep. So I was hoping for like the most shocked value when I showed up someplace else. So, like, I didn't really know what to say these crowds.

I ended up just kind of just saying, you know, yeah, hey man, thanks, we love you guys, you know, because I didn't really want to say like goodbye. I think maybe they're trying to like figure it out maybe two like you see what I want to say, But I never said anything. I just said like, hey, thanks for coming out, you know, but uh, like I remember the night after me.

I thought I was supposed to be done in a and then I find out note where keeping on the road, So I said, so then they kill me off again, which ended up not being the there's like the third time they killed me off ended up not even being the final time, but uh they did. Do you think of body lastly? Now? So I'm like getting dressed and then they're like, hey, we don't should go out dark, and I'm like, what do it? They're like, do say good bye the crowd? I'm like what. But I'm like, I guess because

it's like Barclays and like WrestleMania weekend or whatever. They just want to end the night on a good note. I guess. I don't know whatever. So I'm like okay, and I walk up to Gorilla and Michaelade was like, just go out there, say goodbye, and I remember thinking in my head, I'm like, I'm not saying goodbye to them, I'm thinking about to you. Yeah. Really good point is the night after the media crowd half this cross probably going to be a double or nothing. There's not more.

I'm like, I'll see you in a few weeks, you know. So I just was like, hey, that's funny, thanks for coming out, you know what I mean. But after a while I got like awkward, like that last weekend at the end of the night and I'm like on the mic every night and they're like, you know, please don't go whatever. I'm like, but I remember staying enrollment like we're in it such hang in the micro I was like, I put my head on. I was like, this is getting awkward now, dude. Like we're just saying goodbye

to like every town. At some point it's like goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. It's like, okay, goodbye. Go Like I'm the lingering lingering for a long time, like did you just get out of here already? I was like, people are gonna turn on me, They're gonna be like, get out of here. And then finally that's hilarious. I know it did start to feel that way. The guy who says goodbye at the party and then five minutes later he's still there. Then he says goodbye again. Yeah,

just kept kept going out here, get out of here? Are you a fan of aw looking to sit back, relax and listen to some like minded podcasters who share your passion. Do you want to be topped off the ledge after a segment that has you wondering what the heck are they thinking? Do you want to join a discussion on what AW is doing right and what they could do to improve? Then join me Joel and me Greg for the

All of the Conversation Club every Friday on the PW Torch Live Cast. Fee search pw torch in your podcast app and subscribe to pw torch Daily Cast or stream our shows directly from pw torch dot com. Find full details on the pw Torchdailycast lineup at pw torchdailycast dot com. How I know? How you

know? You've talked about the emotions you felt, but articularly like when you walked out of the building knowing it was the last time that you were Dean Ambrose, you know, like leaving that character behind, as mixed feelings as you had about it because of what scripted it was and all that you were kind of I mean, I assuming you walked out the door there was sort

of a wow, and there were good feelings. Obviously you've spoken to them, but any like melancholy or nostalgia or sense of finality to that just raw that they asked that special and made sure that they didn't want me to come out and say goodbye to des moin make sure like, yeah, okay, you absolutely don't need me double check. And I just kind of like say goodbye to a few people and just kind of slipped out quietly okay, and waited for my wife to get done and then flew home. But I still

didn't believe it. Yeah, because there was one like that was a twenty third by contract and on the thirtieth there was one more raw on April twenty ninth, they would have been full within the rights to asked me to come to and I was like, I don't I don't believe it. I feel like they're gonna call it every you're gonna call me and told me to fly to a fly to whatever it was and do one last role, you know.

So it wasn't until that rale was over. It wasn't until like I dropped the video and and I was like, oh my God, like I made it, because you know, I didn't see that whole week from when I went home until the next week until it until it passed, I was just like sitting staring at the phone and hoping they don't call me, you know, and then it like felt real afterwards, you know. But I mean I'm taking it. I mean, you know, I'm not keep that

DDT. But I mean everything else, I'm just throwing in the garbage, you know what I mean. And that's that's you know, two between you know, me and the Shield and you know the Ambrose alone. That's like two characters that drew a ship ton of money for that company. I'm throwing them both from the garbage and start scratch. So like that's you know through it, you know, yeah, you know, you don't even get one life. You know, I'm not gonna be like you know, former to

movie supers our d name bro, Like I totally could. I don't have to do anything I don't want to do. I can sit on my couch. There's a lot of dudes who like in my position that like aren't looking to get off the couch. They're not like looking to leave their house unless

you make it worth a while. And as they do, you know, like I can totally just every weekend go to some indie show, get a nice payday, sign some autographs, and get up and give somebody DDP at the end of the night and be you know what I mean, I could do that. I'm doing the opposite of that. That's not me at all. You know, I'm not relying on this. I'll go to eat stuff at all. You know. Sidebar comment here speaking of just sitting around on

the couch. Do Netflix sponge anything I have before? I don't. Man, it's hard for me to get into the show, like I gotta I gotta get hooked, you know, like like everybody's get all these Game of Thrones and like I've tried it. Yeah, like romans. Try to get be into that so hard, you know, Like we watched a couple I was just like, I don't know why. I just can't tak get into it. I don't know why. You know, we're just watching this one

called you on Netflix. We just watched that's pretty good. We watched this at us. You know what else we watch. We'll watch some stuff, you know, I like, you know, we like some trash TV. You know, we watch a Bachelor. You know, I like to watch like we like to watch trash TV and like talk because like most the first time I love to hang out with the most of the wife. So we like to just like sit and talk and watch stuff. You know. Yeah, cool coil. Okay, So that's the first half of this interview.

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