5 YRS AGO FLAGSHIP: Keller & Powell: Possible “transformative” changes in WWE Network and PPVs, Drew’s rising stock, AEW vs. NXT star power

It's twelve pages every week packed with my TV reports, along with exclusive features such as my cover story on the top story of the week, our pay per view roundtable reviews from the Torch staff, exclusive feature length columns from Greg Parks, Rich Fan, Sean Radikin, Alan Coonahan and Zach Hadorn, Torch Talk transcripts, the latest news and more.

PW torch dot Com slash paper Copy. Take a break from screen time and settle in every week with the megadosup wrestling news and analysis with a Pro Wrestling Torch Newsletter paper Copy edition. In the year twenty twenty two, you can get a full year of home delivery for just ninety nine dollars, or try us for an eight week trial subscription. PW torch dot Com Slash Paper Copy. Now PW Torch and Speaker bring you the Wade Keller

Pro Wrestling Podcast five years ago. This week on the flagship Jasonpowfrolprogrestling dot Net joined me and we talked about possible transformative changes in WWB network and pay per views also drew McIntire's rising stock, aw's quality control issues comparing the star power of AW two NXT. How would NXT playing in bigger arenas work, fan reaction, complicating Hangman Page's heel turn xfl anticipation, Roh's twenty twenty changes, and much

more so. Let's get to it. This originally dropped on February sixth, twenty twenty, and it is today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast five years ago Flagship flashback for Wednesday, February fifth, twenty twenty five. Less than one million Jason less than one million United States subscribers. What are the odds that that would be paired with the largest amount

of revenue for WWE and any financial statement? Those two things seem to run contrary to each other, and I went to guested it when the network launched that those two things would go together.

you're paying for that you're not using. And there's so much content on the air right now, you know, with Ross SmackDown, NXT plus ae W and then all these other satellite thinks for YouTube and other you know, channels with with impact, and so you have that happening and there's a saturation level being reached with a lot of fans who I it makes sense some people would be like, you know what, I'm gonna watch aw and I'm going to order their pay per views, you know, two three

times a year when when you know when they're when they're around, I'll decide if I want to. And that's my one hundred twenty dollars WWE network budget, and it's by definition, I know people who made that choice, you know, so I know it's more than one. I don't know if it's twenty thousand or two hundred thousand people who have made that decision or a mulling it over, But it makes sense that some people would say, this is why I can justify spending on watching wrestling on television.

And there's so much WWE, and now I can watch n XT without the network. So I think it's a combination of factors along with yeah, I talked with my family and we need Disney Plus and we have to get Apple TV now for that series, and so I had to make a cutback, and I watched so much wrestling was hard for me to justify to my family that I'm watching WOB network.

data extracted. Are you frustrated when you listen to the Q and A with n sick Man and whoever the executives aren't joining him. That has switched this week? Are you frustrated by the questions that could ask? Are the ones that don't get asked?

the same answer over and over again. Same with the XFL. Now, I mean, that is something that I think Vince McMahon should be very concerned with the perception that this is not separate from WWE. There was a one caller said, Hey, there's people interested in your stock, but there's a couple of main things that are concerning them, and the XFL

is one of them. And I mean there's only, I guess, so many ways Vince can say that operated separately, but there's a real perception issue out there that people don't buy that, especially when they're seeing Vince McMahon's first press conference was at a WWE studio. There's WWE email account sending out XFL blurbs, and so even if it is completely financially independently separate, there's still reasons for people to

be skeptical of that. And I think, you know, he sent out the message as best he could well as well as he was going to, but it's still there. I don't think, you know, not every person who's afraid of the XFL costing them WWE stock money is listening to this call.

You can say, well, the NFL team has nothing to do with this blockbuster movie that I'm the director of, but clearly you know your time is split. And Vince has always been a workaholic, so it's not like, oh, I had you know him announced, So I've reduced my hours of b to twenty hours a week the last five years, So I'm just putting in twenty thirty hours of the XFL. But no one will notice. So of course he can say they're separate entities, but it's him.

He sells himself more than ever with the departure of George Barrows from Michelle Wilson as the guy you know who holds us all together. So it's a very reasonable question to ask, and it's not a particularly reasonable answer to say their separate entities except for the pure financial aspect of it, which is, if the XFL bombs, it won't affect the bottom line of WWE. Finally, it won't

affect wly to be financials. But if Vince is WWE and Vince is involved in the XFL, then that's still a fair question and I'm not sure he's getting that aspect of people's concern.

likely bring somebody in from the outside. And another only Vince moment was when he asked who wouldn't want to work for WWE, it's exciting.

The one that makes the most sense would seem to be ESPN Plus because they have that deal with UFC. It may not be for the network as we know. It could be for the four major pay per view events, could be for all the pay per view events. So I mean, it really depends on how this is structured. But I think that it was so interesting to hear him kind of drop that in and then make it, you know, and if this gets done, I'm it'll be

done in the first quarter. I think even though he tried to make it seem casual, I think that was very much a planned strategy to kind of distract people, which I don't even in retrospect, I don't even know.

out patreon dot com slash PW torch vip. That's Patreon dot com slash PW torch vip and you can also upgrade to other tiers and receive even more benefits through Patreon.

The idea that he gets asked about selling advertising on the network, and he's like, well, you know, if there is a network, I mean it's like he's he's putting stuff out there, and I mean, are you getting the sense at all that they're waving the white flag on the network being the right approach for them to take and they really are looking at moving to another streaming service or as was brought up, just splitting off the pay per view and finding a way to have quote

the best of both worlds. Maybe we can still sell WrestleMania in summer Slam and Survivor series the way AW and USC do, but also have a base of subscribers it would drop. Who are who want all this? I guess you know, shoulder content and secondary content including say NXT takeovers. Or is this just the distraction to get the financial world going. Oh, they got a lot of

things that could change things for the better. And even though Wilson and Burials are gone, and even though network numbers are gone, man, they never stop thinking and they're nimble and they're looking at all options and it's more of a distraction than a reality.

that is where the divide comes into play. Perhaps even you know that we don't know, but there's been a lot of speculation that some of the executive bonuses are tied into networks and the time of viewer consumption of the network and that sort of thing.

that was pretty cold at that point. Otherwise, the idea that we're sitting here now talking about the possibility of them completely shifting strategies is is fascinating. The fact that when pressed, they won't say what the profitability of the network is, although there's a lot of accounting tricks. How profitable was the network? Well, are you counting the talent

the wrestler pay for the events or not? Or is that considered a separate how there's base pay for wrestlers that they get, you know, the downsides they get that no matter what. Then they get a bonus check. Is that bonus check based off the gate you know, the ticket sales for the for WrestleMania or network subs If so, is it weighted towards the fact that most people who get the network in February, March, April and may have it almost you know, they have it because they want

wrestle Ma. So do you weigh that more heavily or do you go nope, it's just three hours out of a thousand hours they were a subscriber. And so like there's so many ways to wiggle the numbers. It's not an honest question, it's not a fair and there's no way to fairly and honestly and accurately answer how profitable is a network? And Riddick said, well, we don't give that information out, Well, how can you because if you did, you would really need to show the details to get

people to understand what that really means. And so we don't really know how profitable the network is. But w B shown with Saudi Arabia with Fox and then USA with the renewal. They're looking for big scores. So if there is a streaming service out there that says, well, you know, let's say Netflix feels vulnerable. They lose a lot of their library to these other streaming services. Disney especially, they are creating their own original movies and original series.

But they're like, man, could we add just you know, could we add a million people for X amount of money? And or do we already have those people? And if we pay a lot for Dotamine network, we're just going to be giving people bonus content who already subscribing. And

I don't know the math on that. Is it more likely a sports based product like ESPN that then thinks, well, if we get all the rest and fans in maybe they're more likely to buy UOC pay per views, and then ESPN can charge that premiere tier like they do for UFC for pay per views. There's so many ways this could shake out. I don't sense.

we could add them to the potential mix of you know, just I guess perspective buyers of the network or whoever you want to label this.

Saudi Arabia money coming in, their major TV deals. House shields are sort of you know, not what they once were, obviously, but now it's just sort of, you know, where they

need to improve is on the creative side. They need to create stars, make the product better, and figure out a way to navigate oversaturation and figure out where there should be synergy and where there should have shouldn't be in all that in terms of all the different ways they distribute their their content through the three major US brands.

But now a week later, it does seem as if Baris and Wilson might have had a very different idea that there might be these new frontiers or major changes that there was infighting over, and that might have been going on for a while, and if they were advising for or against something, and Vince was, you know, on the opposite side. It does seem like WWE and six months or a year could be actually in quite a

different place in terms of their business setup. And and they're actually the next people who come in as president or coot presidents. They might end up being part of, as Vince said, a transformative era of WWE business.

of the other one. I don't think you would just get rid of both of them. I thought Michelle Wilson was as powerful as anybody in that company, just because of some of the battles that she's won, you know, the power struggles that she's won, and know, just with female empowerment and everything. I thought, if anyone was gonna go, probably Barrios and Michelle would stick around. But to see both of them go, that really surprised me.

And yes, all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast apps on iPhone and Android devices, or you can stream them directly from our ad free VIP mobile site. See you in the Paradise.

have less power. Do you think that Vince is looking for that person to kind of well he puts up a strong front in terms of his leadership and his ideas, that he's actually looking for somebody who agrees with him on strategy but will take will make big changes.

And when you do that, I mean, that tells me that, yeah, he's going to want somebody that's going to come in and execute his vision. I think this was a power struggle. I mean, I don't know it, but it's Vince. I wouldn't be surprised to be used as the lingo that he uses in creative It is a hill you want to die on, And they said, yes, we.

through at sixty two dollars. This if the strategy here, Evin's going aggressively, wo might announce something in the first quarter was meant to boost stock prices, that is not happening.

I mean CNN dot com headline. Things keep getting worse for WWE deadline, WWE earnings woes, stock drop overshadow return of Vince McMahon's XFL the wraps you know, talks about the b in talks to sell pay per view rights to another major quote unquote streaming service, and at New York posts be stock tanks after revenues, mis expectations, on

and on. I mean the headlines out there when you do a search of keywords right now online for all, for the industry reaction to this, to the data drop today on the press conference, it's it's it didn't work. If the strategy was, let's hit these bull points, so we see that a lot. I mean, nobody asks meinsick man how's that reinventing a house shills coming that you talked about six monthes ago. You know, there isn't that

follow up. But at the same time they're looking at the hard numbers and then they're hearing if you pay attention to things, Vince says, that don't actually come to fruition you you have to go show me. I'm not going to buy stock based on this idea that you're

blowing up. Are you're touting something that might happen, that might be good and it also might come across as again them waving the white flag a little bit on those really high hopes upon which some of the stock price was based that they can grow to to you network as they expand internationally and just reach new people.

in the ring and good work on the mic. It's it's fine, but I don't get really like it doesn't I don't get really excited going into the weekend about wo B. But and some shows are kind of blah, but like that's not enough, you know what I mean, Like, there's not this sense. So my my I'm setting up the foundation of my baseline is I don't hate smacked

on right now. And I know some people like, oh, I fee that's so boring, blah blah blah, Baron Corbyn, this, King Corbyn that, but it is not going to inspire people except for you know, kids who are discovering WWE and want to go and see their those here, those super stars in person. It's not an inspiring product. I think Raw is better, I think NXT is better, but

there isn't that breakout star. And I don't think Drew McIntyre, as much as I'm in favor of the Pushy's getting, is going to be to use the word of that transformative babyface for them. I think he's a good choice to be their lead babyface and has a chance to be really good in that position, but he's not gonna be transformative. So to me, what's left and I don't is focusing on that. And it's people in the financial world who are part of these quarterly calls that they

don't watch the show. They don't have any sense of whether Drew McIntyre has a chance to be a breakout star or who an NXT might be called up there. They don't even know who Keith Lee is and couldn't pick him out of a lineup. That's what we do. But the next thing for them is to either with a breakout star or just like RAW. I think the last couple of months just piece by piece put out

better shows and inch their way up. But wbe's and Vinc mc mann is in the business of that rush from the big deal, yes, and that takes away from the week by week improvement and tending to the product. I don't think Vince is bored by the wrestling, but I don't think he thinks that will make a big enough difference because it used to be house showgates. Oh did we do a million dollars at MSG? Oh no, we did eight and ninety. What are we gonna do to fix that for next time? Now they're making billions

of dollars. That stuff a small change, but you eventually pay the price for not being inspired and refreshing that aspect of your business. And I think there's a sense of other than on, you know, like Ron nxta booker's you know, it seems like who are somewhat inspired to trying your things. But SmackDown is on Fox, and I think that the air came out at WWE's image to a certain degree with how sort of mediocre they're doing on Fox. And there's not buzz about the show.

They have two commentators now instead of three. This is the same product and maybe even worse because this is you know, I suspect strongly Bruce Pritchard writing for Vince Bookman or Vince Bmocmann writing for himself. That's what we're getting on this show and that doesn't cut it in twenty twenty anymore. It hasn't cut it in a few years now. Vince has gone down the hill dramatically, which

is what's so funny about these quarterly conference calls. The financial people seem to think like he's the solution to everything, and they don't realize, No, he's the real problem here.

a streamlined listening experience. And also hear the VIP exclusive shows that I host with Rich Fan and Todd Martin, Everything with Rich Fan and The Fix with Todd Martin signature VIP series that you're missing out without a VIP membership. So go VIP here in twenty twenty two and enjoy all the benefits, all the bonus content and the ad free listening experience. Pw torch dot com slash go vip. All right, we're deeping the show here, but let's set

the table introduce ourselves. This is the Way Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast for Thursday, February six, twenty twenty. I'm Way Keller, host of the program, joined by Jason Powell from Pro Wrestling dot Net. Jason a twenty plus your veteran reporter and analyst covering professional wrestling runs. Progressing dot Net also hosts the Pro Wrestling Boom podcast. Jason, list off the last five or six guests you've had on that on your on your free weekly podcast.

I think there's there's real potential for backlash year Wade, you know, not just the Roman reigns one I'm canceling my subscription and then you know, three people do or something. I think real potential backlash from people bothered by this that you know, hey, you've been selling me on nine ninety nine for how long? That's what your product is worth to me now, but you want me to pay

how much for WrestleMania this year. We don't know if that's what's going to happen, but it wouldn't be surprising if that's the approach they're going to take. If it is like UFC, Okay, you got to sign up for ESPN Plus and then they'll deduct that amount from your pay per view purchase. But I mean, that's basically what this is. But it's not traditional pay per view either. So you're asking people who in some cases to struggle to figure out how WWE Network ended up functioning, to

now figure out how ESPN or whoever does theirs. I mean, so I think there's I mean, but the thing, if it's structured like the UFC ESPN Plus deal, toywe is not going to have to care because they're going to have their their set money anyway. And then we get back into something you and I spent a lot of time kind of shooting down, which is the notion that, oh, they have the network and so they have their built.

in fans' minds. That matters in terms of a story that they're invested in, and the more removed they get from that, the more all this other stuff matters less. Now it matters if they can strike a transformative deal where their revenue goes up. That's fine. But that's Vince mcmhnon playing the Wall Street game, the profits game, the balance sheet game. He's not a wrestling promoter anymore. He's

just playing around with delivery methods and revenue deals. And that's always been part of Vince's business, you know, I mean trying to you know, run buildings and not let others in buildings and buy TV spots and major markets when he expanded. I mean, he's always been a bit on the business side, very aggressive. This isn't like something new, but it was always connected so much to TV ratings, ticket sales, pay per view buys, and you just hear a disconnect now and I think that's to me, that's

still the ultimate concern. You know, with the departure Barrows and Wilson matters a lot, but in one respect, it doesn't matter at all for arrest fan because what a wrestling fan cares about. Yes, I mean, I know the ESPN Plus to watch uc pay per view. My head hurt the first time I tried to figure out how to do it. And I'm pretty tech savvy. I'm the one who people go to to figure stuff like this out. And I was like, oh God, I want to watch this pay per view, but oh, what do I have

to do now? And I'm like, go side of this and then this gets deducted from that, and then I have to log in and then do this, and then I have to download an app. Is does my Samsung TV have that app? Or do I have to Who got an Apple TV? It was just like a mess, you know, Like so that's not serving the fans if there's that complication. But in the end, fans are going to find a way to watch a match or an event they want to watch. They will overcome that hurdle

if they're motivated. But if they're not, I'm like, god, screw it. I'm just gonna put on you know, AW and the DVR, go watch NWA Power on my laptop And so some of that matters, But in the end, you need fans to want the product for it to work. And what we're talking about isn't probably of interest to a lot of people listening to the show, They're just like,

I just want to I just want wrestlers. I want to I just want to be invested in good matches with wrestlers I care about, and all this other stuff doesn't matter. And I just don't sense that there's that level of introspection publicly by Vincent Mann or anyone in WWE. And maybe, I mean maybe that's where they spend ninety percent of their time behind the scenes, and it just

doesn't come up in these things. And obviously a decision to turned room Ac and tire Babyface and have them win the rumble, and the creative idea pro or con of having Lesnar enter first and doing the storyline with him, they're obviously still doing creative things on a week to

week basis. But I just don't sense that they realize that's where that has to be, that has to be fixed, and that's what needs to be transformative for all these other things to matter, other than if you're just you know, playing a game of moving, moving the pieces around in terms of how you distribute the product and the deals you sign, and I get that's the game. There, I

now is a public good traded company. That's what excites in Man and his people, and they quote need to do it because he judges himself on stock price now more than TV ratings or ticket sales.

not gonna watch Ron SmackDown. But are they going to be quick to pay fifty bucks or whatever that price would be for wrestling?

They can't. They'll get kicked out of the house. If there's a sixty five dollars bill on cable for a wrestling pay per view, And so I don't know where they would be right now if they had stuck with pay per view in terms of how the revenue would compare and how you know, what the what the pace of pay per view buys would be, if it would have been, if it would have diminished at the same rate TV ratings have or or what. I mean, we just don't know. That's an alternate universe. And anyone who

says they know doesn't. You can look at indicators and try to guess. But you are right to back up and make that point that if they suddenly start trying to charge people thirty or fifty or seventy dollars. I mean, I looked at the Conor McGregor fight. I was like, I kind of, you know, want to see this, and I just looked and I was like, I can't justify paying whatever seventy bucks or whatever for what amount to probably a two minute squash, and that's what it turned

out to be. And so I just that's again, but it comes kind of full circle back to even it You're right, even if the product is really good, will people be resistant after the ten dollars flat fee or ninety nin for so long will they be resistant to seeing through McIntyre against brock Lesner, no matter how good of a job they do building that up. And that's absolutely a question that Vince McMahon doesn't know the answer to.

way lower than two and three years ago. They can point to certain things to go yeah, but relatively speaking, my counter argument to that is, yeah, but fewer people are watching your products start to finish live and that reduction in engagement means fewer people being being exposed to your current and new ste fewer people being excited to buy tickets, fewer people and who are even a candidate to buy the network. So you can say, well, we got a flat fee for X number of years, so

ratings don't matter. That's just BS ratings matter because that's those are the that's a that is a gauge on not only a gauge on how excited they are now compared to one month ago or a year ago. But if you say, well, but the trend is downward, it's inevitable, Well, you have fewer people who are watching your product. And I don't think watching the top ten moments in w on YouTube is the same thing as a viewer watching raw live in terms of someone being a candidate to

buy a ticket or buy the network. So it it still comes back to that, and I am I'm fascinated to see where they go. And then you have aw just kind of doing their thing for two hours a week, much lower budget but high enough to look major league, you know, putting out pay per views. I think it's going to be telling how revolution does the first one I got, you know, in what way do you think.

you know they're going to splinter the market. I mean, if there's a hardware store on a corner and there's a line out the door because so many people want to buy hammers and nails and lawnmowers, and there's an empty location across the street that used to be a Blockbuster, somebody is gonna look and go, oh god, there's a

lot of hardware business in this market. I'm gonna open one kitty corner and take forty fifty percent of their revenue underprice them get sixty percent, like OfficeMax, you know, kind of did to drive all the mod pop office supply stores out of business twenty years ago. AW is that is opening up in that empty Blockbuster they're saying, or what used to be WW or whatever. They're filling

that void. And by definition, there are people who are progressing fans and they're gonna watch them pro wrestling, and aw's pulling them away from RAW. You know, that's one of the reasons RAW ratings are down from yer ago, even if the product is better, is some people just they only have so many so much time to watch wrestling,

and AEW serves them better. So of course that's gonna carry over to pay per view, and of course that's going to carry over to some people canceling ww network because they want to save their money up for the every few months big pay per view with the wrestlers and the just the brand and that AW projects that people identify with and see as the good guy in this fight.

dot com. We invite that interaction. Let us know what you think of what we're saying, and let us know what you want us to talk about and ask us specific questions. Wade Keller Podcast at pw torch dot com. All right, Jason, let's take a moment here for you to plug your website and your.

incredible Court Bower of MLW. Very open discussion with Court about all things MLW, at least what he could talk about because they're in some negotiations right now. But again that is Pro Wrestling Boom and if you have any questions about anything, you can always reach out to me on Twitter at Pro Wrestling Net.

invested in the direction that they go in. They've got a good thing going with John Moxley right now in Chris Jericho and just a good thing with Jericho in the Inner Circle and the Cody MJFF angle, and you know, we can it was a little over indulgent, a little long.

I understand some of that criticism that's coming in, but overall, you know, they've taken MGF and turned it into a star with their audience, and Cody is a top tier sympathetic babyface to the aw audience, and and so I think they have some some strong pillars to their product right now. And yet on the other side, and I spent a decent amount of time on last night's postial talking about it, there's still kind of a sloppiness to certain things they're.

scheduled for Dark. I kind of remember what they said a week earlier, and then I can go on their Twitter feed and find it, but they don't have it on their website. And like, AW Dark should be hyping and promoting and getting you excited about Dynamite, and they're

not doing it. So that's one example of where it does does feel like there's a number of chefs and they're working in different kitchens and they're not communicating with each other, and I just imagine where could they be with the good things, the good things that matter more

than anything I just talked about. But if they were doing these other things better and the product was cleaned up a little bit, you know, take the red pen to the script and go, we can tweak this to improve this aspect of it, I think they could be, you know, significantly better off in terms of viewership and engagement to get people to buy their pay per views. And it does feel kind of sloppy. It still feels like a first draft sometimes of what this product I

think should should have been by now. So what's what's your take on my sort of overview of where AW stands now?

babyface as opposite of Hangman Page, turning heel. They have bubbled upon something and to extend the Stone Cold analogy, you know, he was supposed to be a heel and the fans started sharing him and they turned a face. Hulk Hogan came in at a w a supposed to be a heel, the fans started cheering him, and Hulkamania was born prior to going to WWF, by the way, for those who don't know that history and should And

so now you have Hangman Page. And I'm not saying he's going to be the next Hulk Cogan or Stone Cult because I honestly don't think he will be, but I think he can be more than the next James Storm. And there's something happening here where Aw's audience relates to someone who wants to enjoy a beer and doesn't want the friend nagging them about drinking too much. And at this point, Hangman Page hasn't done anything that actually shows he's he deserves to have the beer he yanked out

of his hand, like they've they've approached that line. And there's times where he seemed, you know, disengaged a little bit more than he should be if he's going to be a good friend and a good partner, but it's not I don't think working the way that they intend.

So the question is is AW nimble enough to either say, all right, we got some of those Page, let's keep them babyface, and the young Bucks we want to keep them babyface too, So we need them to come to an understanding and kind of pat Page on the back and go, yeah, you do your thing, we'll do ours, and it's cool. We'll still be friends, but we're not. You know, if that's working for you, great, and then just get him into different programs or do you turn

the box or do you turn Kenny? They have some options right now, and I'm curious because this is aw's first test of a crowd reaction going I think quite different than there they've envisioned when they booked it.

Kenny Omega right now. So let's just kind of figure it a way out of this if we wanted to. I think they want to have a match between those tag teams, and you can do that, but it can end with mutual respect and you kind of move on.

Bucks could be obnoxious. I don't think being the elite on YouTube is an important enough franchise that you can't that you that you worry about risking what they've built up there. So I'm intrigued by it. I don't rule it out. There's a lot of other factors at play, so I can I can endorse in theory either approach

that they take all of that said. I mean I lean a little bit towards keep them babyface and have them just kind of not come to a point in no return and instead just you know, have it out and then let hay Man Page go be a baby face but not be in the vicinity of Omega and the Bucks and let him do his thing.

matches you're promoting. If you think merchandise aside, we should turn this this act heal and you don't do it. I just I'm not Yeah, I'm not a I'm not a believer in that. I think you have to do what's best for the wrestling product itself and let the merch money fallward. It may. I just you know, if they look at their per cat merch sales at live events.

I just think people go to the show with fifty bucks or one hundred bucks and go, I'm willing to spend this, and they're going to spend it on you know something, And yes, they might buy a Bucks T shirt, but if it's not available or their heels, they're gonna buy a Mox T shirt or Cody T shirt or whoever.

pw boom dot com. Once again, that's pw boom dot com.

But but you know, he's pointing out, you know, the tags and who's legal, and he's pointing out you know, wrestlers more and more worried about striking their signature pose in the middle of a match as opposed to winning a match.

there's just lots of weird little things. And again you can kind of get, you know, down a rabbit hole of doesn't really matter that Adam Page's picture of beer magically appeared out of nowhere when he walked into the hallway with with a with a plastic cup and suddenly you do that, w Yes, I just to me, like they should just pan the camera down, and there's Marco Stump handing it to him like that would I've had.

have a a professional product. And part of it, to me is not that it's in and of itself is a big deal, but it's symptomatic of a sloppiness otherwise. You know, I mean a food analogy, if a chef that you're if you're at a restaurant on the cook er, chef walks out and out of the kitchen and his fly is down and his shirt's on backwards and he's sweating and there's you know, food on his nose. You're just like, oh God, what's going on in the kitchen that I'm not seeing? And do I really want to

eat here? And I'm with aw. There's certain just weird things that happen that you would think of and that someone with an eye for the product would would clean up first. And then you just think, what is this symptomatic of behind the scenes in terms of the cohesion and vision and execution of the booking? And I think there are signs there that this product should be better than it is and it should be cleaned up a

little bit. And I don't know if it is because they have you know this this weird as Tony contact with me about on the eve of Dynamite's debut, you know, well we just communicate by you know, Bucks are out, Kelly and Kenny's up in Canada, and Cody's over here and we're all just you know, kind of getting together once a week and piecing together a script. It kind of feels that way sometimes that there isn't that one cohesive vision and I don't know. I mean, does that

is that a problem Jason? If so on a one to ten scale, real minor or real serious, I.

I mean, I just see. And maybe it's because he's paying more attention to his own stuff, but I don't see this level of clumsiness when it comes to what Cody is doing, for instance, or Jericho is doing.

watch The Road Toos. They've not a good job of marketing that. It was like, oh, that's back. I had no idea. So yeah, I mean, I'm kind of that person who buy and law just watching Dynamite and there's so many things I'm like, like the whole Nightmare collective thing, like how has this not been explained on the show? How is Dark not mentioned on Dynamite on a regular basis?

attack and was that referenced on Dynamite No? Nope. So and then you have Brandy showing up as the wife of Cody minus all the hair snippin' spooky stuff whatever she was doing, the cult like stuff, and we don't get an explanation for that either. It's it's I mean, if Vince Russell was doing this, people, there would be

way more people mock you know what I mean? Like the aw's in this honeymoon period where there's these things happening and people are like, yeah, but this is cool and that's cool and they've got goodwill and they're cool people and I'm rooting for them, But there I think it's it's not serving them that there aren't people being more critical of some of this, just shoddy continuums of characters. The time it took for Brandy to put those segments

together that have amounted to nothing, So far. If instead she read over the script and had an active role behind the scenes being the quality control person like that would be a much better use of Tony Kahn's money for her. Then these segments that are on two different shoulder content shows that end up being contradicted or not acknowledged at least yet. Maybe they'll tie it all together in the next week or two, but so far they haven't. So yeah, it's where in aw dark has been one

of the bigger disappointments, you know. I mean, it's just throwing together some matches that they taped the six days earlier, and they're not and they're not hyping dynamite. That should be a vehicle to get an extra fifty or one hundred thousand people to watch on TNT who might skip it or might otherwise be watching NXT, and they're not taking advantage of that. I just it does kind of it blows my mind. It is an option they're reaching a lot of people, and they're not taking advantage of it.

why you wouldn't. I don't understand why you'd run angles on that show and then have no follow up whatsoever on the Actually yeah, I mean, I know they've kind of talked about Dynamite or Dark kind of being like, well, we need to get a lot of people some reps and things like that, because you know they're not letting a lot of their talent work elsewhere. Okay, the then leave it dark. If this is what you're gonna do, thin, just have a bunch of truly dark matches.

at pewtorch dot com. That also applies to wwepayperviews. I cover those live at pw torch dot com with a detailed written report with star ratings, and of course you can find other TV reports from other contributors to pw torch such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling and more. Check it out pwtorch dot com your first stop for TV and pay review written records. AW Dark, I mean it's doing, you know, around two hundred and fifty thousand views, give or take. That's down, you know from where they were

in November and December. You know they were hitting four four hundred plus five, you know, close to five hundred thousand for aw Dark not long ago. I think people have disconnected because if you watch an episode and you think, oh, you know, something happened here, I'm glad I spent an hour watching this, and then you tune into Dynamite and it gets ignored. You start not thinking it doesn't matter.

So yeah, it's it's weird. It just it's it seems like at some point Tony Knicam needs to kind of step back and go, let's just give a fresh look to everything we're doing and try to aim everything in the right direction.

just gonna put the time into put together really good video packages on Dark in the road to because they're capable of it. We see it with Cody, but we don't and to a degree with Brandy. You see this this elbow grease being put in on some of these features, but not it's not happening with enough others. You know, we get Darby doing is sort of you know, handheld what does Darby do when he's not on TV? Stuff which is at you know, interesting window into his life,

and those are fine. Those don't always make it out of dynamite either. So this is I enjoy a w This is a fan of the product they're putting out, pointing things out that I think one would make the product better and two that I think from an analyst standpoint, are are are symptoms of something that isn't where it should be four and a half months into their TV run and you know, a year and a year plus into them as a company.

But I mean, there's just a little too much of everything's wonderful because as you said, they're in that honeymoon phase with some people.

and not see it coming. It's like you'll never see another hatch on AW where the rest are celebrate by looking at a forty five degree angle away from the hard camera. But they did it because they didn't think to have Britt actually attack him from opposite the hard camera from behind, and so you see, you know, and whatever Kenny was doing when he set up however many spots he did in last night's match, he's like, here's my hand, here's my hand, here's my foot. Now now

kick me on the thigh. Like there's a lot of things where if you're just objectively looking at it, that stuff doesn't happen on double w W product because somebody backstage, including Vince, is gonna yell at them, or Triple H and NX he's gonna yell at him, or Terry Taylor or whomever, gonna go that didn't look good, stop doing that. And nobody's doing that in AW. I feel like there's this bubble insulation to honest criticism because people are buying their own press.

some critiques or criticism. But I think when Cody's out there, it's a major leagu product, and I think it's a result of him being in WWE, frankly for a long time and seeing how it works. And Jericho's segments are really good because he's he's been around long enough to see how this works on a major league level and the other guys haven't been And I think sometimes that shows.

for a twenty minute angle. People like with good seats and you know, off the first level standing. I mean people were standing throughout that segment. They were into this, and I think that speaks volumes about it. I thought it was really well done. Yeah, I mean there's there's.

to say do you want this match? And then Cody kind of resigns himself to having to do what MGF says, and then you're right. The announcers in the storyline and MGF shouting at him is do you want this match or not? He had to take all ten lashes for the match to happen, and they could have done a better.

have been gouged out. I just didn't think that was the time for Jericho to get all cute with it, you know, being hypocritical, because he did the same thing to mox Ley and so he says, who would do this? I didn't care for that. That did irk me watching it. And it's too bad because I've like, damn near everything Jericho has done in a w so far.

on fire. And Ortiz is a good talker too, and I don't think people realize that. And that's something you know, I've been saying since they signed, like, I don't want to see these guys as henchmen. They can speak for themselves. Yes, con ended a lot of talking, but they can both talk. And so I thought that was a good promo. But if people were impressed by that, sit tight, I mean, you're gonna be a lot more impressed when this guy really has something he could sink his teeth into.

a national audience and what they're all about. At another stage, and sent Ortiz, You're like, well, maybe they're saving that. There's a time to do it. It's not now, but it'll come, and enough time has gone by where you're I'm starting to wonder are they saving stuff or is it just not crossing their mind that they haven't done this yet and it would be a good idea to do it, you know, in terms of not to be not to get on a Kenny discussion, but you know,

have Kenny Omega have two or three matches. So these people who I hear from often who are like, I heard how great Kenny was. Never watched his new Japan stuff, just didn't But now he's on a weekly national cable series with a bunch of English speaking promos in a format that I'm more used to, and I'm absolutely willing to buy all in on this. I don't get him.

I haven't seen what he does yet, and so, you know, and then sent ten ortis, let's kind of lead into that is their reputation and their body of work is great, and they're just standing in the background. They are, you know, the new version of Rowan and Harper standing behind bray Wyatt, not getting really any time to, you know, for a harp of to show what he can do, and he's being able to utilize. At some point it's not well,

we're saving it for when it matters. At some point you start to worry do they even know what they have or are they too preoccupied with certain things, including themselves and not putting the time and effort into letting these other guys showcase what they can do. And it is nice to see the beginning of that now with last night's show with senten on.

we're still waiting for that real standout match. And I'm hoping with this being framed as a thirty minute Iron Man match, that's what they have in mind.

And that's just I'm sorry, but pointing a camera at the ring and having the young bucks go out there and do dives and kicks is going to absolutely satisfy a big part of the fan base, but it is absolutely not enough to bring in the maximum possible fan base for that for that team and what they can do. And Kenny, I mean, what do you point to with him as the signature usage of television to get him over as a start to this new audience of a

million people? And there's over a million people watching once you add seven day viewership here. That's a lot of people who never watch Kenny in New Japan. And what have they done other than kind of you know, ex caliber saying oh, you know, the regardless of grad he was the rest of the year a couple of years ago, people want to see it. So I just that's it. Justsppoint at AWS. I just don't think they sat down

and really plot it out. I think they're just kind of there's a sense of I hear about this long term planning, and I think there's some long term planning with storylines, but not the marketing of the acts and doing so in a sophisticated way with you know, like even the last about on NXT, the finn Baller Johnny Arganda segment, the split screen interview, you gotta find I don't think I should say you gotta, but I think it helps you if you shake up the ways that

you present, how your talent talks to each other in front of a match. And NXT has all these different ways in W two, and all kinds of companies have, but there's all these different ways to do it, and I just don't sense there's that visionary in AW who's really excited about that and putting this polished product out

every week. I think there's a sense of, you know, we're gonna make this, as Cody said, a two hour party in the ring and aim the camera at the ring, and some weeks are better than others, but there's not enough, as I say, kind of elbow grease to add kind of pizaz and shake up the way the wrestlers are presented, and you know, like a little bit of Darby Allen with a flame thrower. That's sort of what I mean is just show us who these people are a little bit more.

and they're just one example. There should be more depth than that when it comes to their characters.

flag ship alveteen dreamas back. What'd you think of his return last night?

had the crowd seemed to like it. You know, he was kind of all over the place, but it was a high energy return for the Albertine Dream.

in comfort right out of the box. Whether it's a long day or a big night, your Tacovas are built to last and impress. That's why Esquire loves them and says there's a reason we keep coming back to Takova's. If you ever wondered if you can pull off boots with your personal style. With Takovias, there's a style for every style. You might be more Sean Michaels, you might be more Dusty Rhodes. Maybe you're brock Lesnar or Cowboy James Storm. Maybe you see yourselves more Hangman Page or

maybe the natural dustin Rhads. Tacovis has a style for you. Plus, with Tacovia's best in the West guarantee, you'll get free returns in exchanges for thirty days right now. Get ten percent off at to covis dot com slash wade when you sign up for email in texts that's ten percent off at tacovis dot com slash Wade. That's t E c o v as dot com slash Wade see the

site for details. To Covis, point your toes West. When we talk about NXT's ratings compared to AW in September, we were talking about velveteen Dream being a significant player who would factor in, and he hasn't yet and now he's back. Is he somebody who when we Because I think the AW star power at the top has been stronger than NXT's in a kind of an objective way.

If you're not already super invested in Tomaso Champa or Cargano, even when you had Finn Ballard to the mix, I think the AW stars and part of it is the setting and the novelty of the new company. But Cody and Jericho and Moxie, I just think their top guys this far in have seemed like bigger stars, and now NXT is closing that gap. You know, Charlotte's sort of a paying a visit. We'll see how how long that is. But Finn Ballard being there and now having velveteen Dream back,

I mean, do you agree with that premise, Jason? That aew to the general public who's deciding between two brands, especially if they're WWB loyalists or laps fans to a degree, looks at AW Dynamite and sees Jericho and Moxley and Cody perhaps in that order, and says those are bigger stars than NXT's top stars of Adam cole Or collectively Undisputed Era and Tomasso Champa, Johnny Garcano, even Finn Balor

and now velveteen Dream coming on the scene. I just think if you look at the top three, four X and AW, it probably has an advantage.

on a national stage. But you see it with wrestlers, you see it with you. If your dad was a big Stone Cold Steve Austin fan, you might appreciate him, but you're gonna want your own guy that kind of thing, and I think AW has some of that going for them where they don't.

In general, that's actually kind of more the if you want your own generation of wrestlers, you can make the case NXT has room to grow in that demographic because those are actually wrestlers who haven't made evented WrestleManias in wwepay Produce before, whereas you know, aw IS is built around at least two guys who have in Jericho and Moxley, with with certainly Cody being in that mix two and Pop being an X Doo Twoe guy. So I mean, I think you can make a case either way, which

is why it's not a complete slam dunk. I mean, in the male eighteen to thirty four demo last night, n XT to a point one eight aew one point twenty nine. That's not a two to one or three to one margin. And the lead isn't that much better when you add the thirty five to forty nine year olds, or the lead's not that much different point five zero

to point three zero. So there's actually a slightly bigger lead for a w among the thirty five to forty nine year old males than there is among eighteen to thirty four, And I think that is because of the age of Jericho when Moxley and Cody, so they have a cool factor in youth with Samy Gavara and Darby Allen and the Young Bucks for that matter.

being stale in the next year or two. I think aw's perception of pushing their top guys better than WWE did and Jericho when Moxley and Cody are in a better position than they were elsewhere, and NXT just is a really really well put together, well booked show with guys in their prime or entering their prime. So it

is a fun matchup in that way. And both shows ratings went up last night, you know, nine hundred and twenty eight thousand, AW up one hundred thousand from the week before in live and same day viewership, and then NXT up from seven hundred twelve to seven seventy, although that seven seventy is tied with two weeks ago and the nine twenty eight is below where AAW was three weeks ago, so it's not like this big boom, but there was a decline for a couple of weeks, and

both shows have rebounded in part with obviously NXT pushing Charlotte showing up and AW. What do you think is it attributes to dropping for four weeks in a row at the beginning of the year and then actually five weeks in a row they dropped. They went from nine to sixty seven to nine forty seven to ninety one to eight seventy one to twenty eight. I look at

those numbers, it's a little concerning if I'm AAW. They rebounded a little bit or quite a bit in the three day delayed viewership, so that can kind of dampen some of the concern But now a good rebound in live viewership, to me, that's encouraging. What do you think about Is there something about last night show that did that? Was it the ten lashes? Was that the selling point?

succeed on Wednesday and the networks to be happy. Because as much as we spent a lot of time talking about the business side and business strategies and distribution models for network content and pay per views, I think in the immediate what people listening to us mostly care about is is there good wrestling that they can watch as a pastime on Monday Wednesday And Fridays, and you know tuesdays to a degree too, And I think viewership not dropping another week in a row, but actually going up

significantly shows nobody. We're seeing a longer set of data now that makes even a five week downward trend like AW had seem less alarming, especially when you get the plus three numbers and you realize even if people don't watch it live, they tend to catch up within a few days.

road for six weeks. But put an end date on it so that you can say face if you don't sell tickets or it takes a lot of papering, But just do a six week thing in March or April. And I wonder what would happen to viewership. You can't do it in one week because people won't know it's coming. It won't matter in two weeks, not enough data. But

if you did a six week run. I mean, I was watching you know, Matt Riddle and and uh Pete done last night, and I'm just like, if they were in front of six thousand people instead of six hundred people. You don't give or take in a big arena of

versus this awesome in of its setting, you know. And I really like Full Sale, but I liked it on deu B Network as a developmental brand, and it looks just good enough where it's not like a weekly thing for me to you know, it doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the show in a significant way watching on USA, but it's a factor when you imagine people flipping around or sampling the products. Aw even in Huntsville, where they weren't shy about showing the upper deck was empty in

certain parts of the building, it just feels bigger. And therefore it's not so much how big the building feels, but how big the wrestlers feel in a smaller venue versus a bigger venue. And I just think it's hard to create a star out of Keith Lee, Tomaso Champa and Riddle and done on what they're doing. I think it's hard to turn them into stars in front of hundreds of people instead of thousands of people.

if you will, as good as it is. And also the notion that, okay, don't get you attached because some of these people are probably going to be called up, even if that's not really I mean, you're going to have movements that that's to be expected, and I think the rules have kind of changed, but it doesn't mean that everyman out there knows this and they're just wondering, Okay, if I get attached to velove a team dream, you know, Grady, He's going to be gone up on the main roster

and then I'll just see him on Monday nights or something like that.

to see the Fiend or whoever. But it's it's it's about certain stars, and it's about the big arena and it feels like a big deal, and you know, it's it's like going to the arena concert instead of the

hotter band that's at the smaller venue. You know, you can you can judge people for having you know, bad taste or going with the mainstream corporate branding, but there's a reason those places fill buildings so I wonder if ending at WWE and doing a little bit more not not taking away triple H in company's autonomy, but the branding itself, blending it a little more, if that went to work ten xc's favor, there's some downside that offsets it because NXT has kind of a niche separate cool

factor that comes from not being as much a part of the corporate branding. So I don't know, Jason, but you know, I mean, it's good that they're doing that for like search returns, you know, on on you know the way people search for programs now right, But if they overtly labeled it and had the w B logo and all that. I remember Kevin Dunne was in Paul Hayman. I think Paul Hayman and Kevin dun kind of but

it heads on this with ECW. Should that to be logo, that stamp be in the corner of the screen during ECW on on Sci Fi? Or should it really seem like its own brand?

shows with Awn NXT. And I mean there's variety of reasons I'm not doing it that I won't get in too, but the major factor is I just think there's more to talk about with AW because you're less sure of what they're less your foot in and what they're doing, and there's more variance. It's a new product NXT. I enjoy people who listen to me talk about it. The last couple of years. No, it was my favorite show to watch on a weekly basis, and takeovers are my favorite,

like kind of live special events. It just it checked enough boxes for me to be a product that it didn't have as many irritating things, a little nitpicky stuff that bothers me more than most people. But I will defend that it's important and I will also depend it argue it's symptomatic of things that are disrupted behind the scenes. We don't notice, you know, the dirty the dirty dining room might be indicative of a dirty kitchen and you might get sick eating there. And when you have sloppy

stuff on there. There's probably some things that are missing out on behind the scenes that would make the product better. So that is an issue with AW but that gives someone like me more to talk about with it because the high end Jake tit so this dude, the highs are higher, the thowse are lower. NXT is thoroughly enjoyable. I never dread watching the show. I'm always excited to

watch it start to finish. But it's not experimental. It is it knows what it is, and the people who make the air almost entirely are polished, and even though it's developmental, they're polished in ways that you can cover up for some of the greenness of some of the people who are younger. And there's less ConA Reeves now than there used to be on the weekly TV show. You know, they are not putting people out there to sink or swim. They're putting people out there they know

that can swim. So it just it's a more paulished show. And that's so it's fascinating, but it does give us I mean, I still talk about NXT later in the week on my various podcasts, but in terms of Night of show discussion. Aw is just there's always something I want to see next week that I think is worth analyzing and talking about. That's more newsworthy. Yeah yeah, yeah. So speaking of NXT, what do you think of what they did with Charlotte.

feud with, and it's just tiresome. And she's fallen into this trap of being very repetitive in the promos with the clean material. So seeing her in the ring with two very fresh potential opponents who are both very over really jumped out. It helped her, it helped them. It was just good all around.

the ads and plugs through Patreon. Full VIP membership starts at nine dollars in ninety nine cents to treat yourself to a streamlined, ad unplug free listening experience with a VIP or Patreon membership. Bianca Belair is a star too, in part because she just presents herself like no matter what's going on, Like even when she got kind of pushed out of in between Charlotte and bel Air and she just stole the scene, like, I can't believe you

people just did that to me. And then she's dancing in the background and laughing and creating this whole uproar. And yet it didn't feel like she was stealing the scene in a way that was disruptive, but it was a I can't help myself, but I'm self aware of it that I should be the star of the moment. And then she knew when to dial it back and let let the shift go back to Charlotte and bel Air facing off, and so the dynamic with those three

was was really interesting. I think the segment was better for that, in the dynamic of bel Air and ree Rip leaving against each other but also sort of team at XT or twenty twenty n XT versus the person coming back to thinking she's a big deal. I thought there were a lot of things that play there, and it did. It gave Charlotte more to work with and more to play off of, and she seemed less robotic and what she did.

strong too. I don't think a lot of nxtvs are like I got to go check out the lashing. I think they delivered you know, a really good uh you know, close to the show with the final two segments.

But I do wonder if we may get you disappointing finish here or there on that show to set up the need for a rematch.

I'd be more worried. Sure, Yeah, but yeah, that's a uh, that's a nice lineup. I mean, Dakota, Kaya, Tigu and Knox. There's such a backstory there. I think they extinguished it a little bit, but hopefully they can rev that. Yes, Yes, and then Keith Lee died. Jakovic. I thought that was, you know, just like the respectful you know, the respectful conversation that stared down two peers, two rivals and when

that bell rings, we're gonna go at it. And I like that not everything has to be this this you know, vile, bloody grudge, and they have plenty of them in NXT, but it's nice to have something a little different than that. And this will be a chance for them. I mean, I feel like I've seen them wrestle enough that I was actually you know, I was I'd mixed feelings about them doing it again, but having a chance to have no commercials, uh, plenty of time to tell their story.

This can be the cap to their feud. And I think there's such a chemistry between them and the goal is to get both eyes over so in front of a takeover audience. I think it's it's nice that they'll have that chance.

from SHANEA. Basler going to the main roster and what will that mean because Ripley basically already is you know, she's involved in a storyline that is and involved with Charlotte. Ripley is kind of I mean, as exciting as it is, she I think she's taken some of the shine off of the excitement of what's next for shanea baseil or Shane is going to be fine. But in the moment right now, Ripley has leaffrogged her in terms of conversation piece.

Going too long? And by the end I was like that worked. And with Riddle and done, I was sort of like, is this getting too cute? And then by the end I was like, that worked.

more serious Matt Riddle. I don't think it's a bad thing to show multiple sides of his personality.

What could they other than the arena setting? I guess, which you know is that's if that's a compliment to say this should be these rustlers would be playing in front of a bigger building.

just so consistently strong. I can't point to you can I always say, well, you know, i'd like to see this person challenging with the title instead or something like that, But everything logical, the segments, it's rare now that you see they're just failing some time. I did feel like that a little bit with the Tyler Breeze Jordan Devlin match. I thought it was a good match. I don't know that it needed to go as long as it did, but even that, I mean, it still was very entertaining

for what it was. And yeah, so I almost feel bad for, you know, the creative people in NXT because they are doing such a damn good job. And I just hope that Vince isn't being Vince and blowing a gasket because they're losing this battle to aw because I don't know what else they could be doing.

they I didn't Pete Done. It is gonna be a pleasant surprise for people who've only seen him on the us NXT as far as what kind of a heel he can be if they go in that direction. So I think he could be there, But yeah, I'm struggling to think of who else really fits in there, because yeah, they do seem babyface heavy.

least at full sale, aren't so sure. And I'm curious what the crowd reaction in Portland is for Baler and Gargano. You know, throughout that match, you know it might not be a heel face matchup, even though you know we talk about aw trying to book Hangman Page as a heel and Kenny and the Bucks's faces. This could be a case where the fans end up tearing Baller and Boo and Gargano more because how they feel about Gargano oddly than just because Baler's a star and they love him.

I'm curious about that. I don't know how that do you have a sense of that.

we're gonna turn Finn Balor. I think Balor needs to start healing on the fans he's such a He's a really good heel, but we're kind of missing that right now. He's heelish toward other wrestlers, but he seems to be content with the fans cheering him, and I'd like to see him just have no redeeming qualities.

They talked every week for an hour and a half two hours apout NXT super in depth and so just search PW Torch on your podcast app to to grab that. And that is one of seven new shows a week. But the NXT show, if you're looking for that quick turnaround, in depth weekly discussion even longer than what Jason and are doing here, check that out. One of the things about last night show we haven't talked a lot about you just I think mentioned in passing is how long

Jordan Devlin and Tyler Breese was. And I'm it was good, but I was kind of half expecting Devlin to like beat him in like a minute or two. Breese hasn't been featured much. I like Tyler, but when when when he and Fondaga were kind of doing their thing on NXT early on in the in the Wednesday battle, I

was like, I'm not sure that's a good idea. You know, you don't want XT to seem like, you know, rests are featured who are just sort of you know, I think I just didn't think that was a great use of time to treat them as competitive competitive tag team as much as I'm a fan of aspects of what they do in the ring and his characters, and so they'd been away for a while and I thought, well, Breeze just going to be kind of like Eric Young and it went really long. Was that good or bad

for Jordan Devlin? Or was the match good enough in his projection of his personality and his intensity and his moveset Was that more important than winning quickly against somebody that fans don't see as a top level guy.

But yeah, I mean, so they're trying to make at the same time, they're trying to make a statement that hey, you know, Tyler Brees can be taken serious. You're doing it with the guy who just won the Cruiserweight title, who doesn't make appearances on your NXT television show. So I don't know that that's really going to send that message either. So yeah, it was I enjoyed the match, but it was one of the I'd love to know the logic behind.

the line. I think it was Nigel who said, Jordan Devlin wants to defend this Cruiser White title and NXT UK, NXT and two A five live, the idea that he's a traveling champion and the fact that now they're finding guys who actually are shorter and this isn't meant as a dick, but they're shorter than Adam Cole and Kyler Riley. They're shorter than Finnbaler, guys who in another era would

have been the cruiserweights. They're putting the title on guys who look like there would be smaller, smaller than the heavyweights in NXT. So to speak. Maybe I'm a little off on that. Maybe Jordan Devlo would stand next Kyler Riley and be a little taller, or Adam Adam Cole or something, but I don't think so, Like he comes across to me as someone who is a little bit shorter. Do you think I'm wrong on that?

know that works for me. Give yourself a reason to look for to go into the mailbox each week with a PW Torch newsletter paper copy subscription details at PW

torch dot com. Slash paper copy It's twelve pages every week packed with my TV reports, along with exclusive features such as my cover story on the top story of the week, our pay per view roundtable reviews from the Torch staff, exclusive feature length columns from Greg Parks, Rich Fan, Sean Radikin, Alan Coonahan and Zach Haydorn, Torch Talk transcripts,

the latest news, and more. PW Torch dot Com slash Paper Copy take a break from screen time and settle in every week with a megadosa wrestling news and analysis with a Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter paper copy edition in the year twenty twenty two. You can get a full year of home delivery for just ninety nine dollars, or try us for an eight week trial subscription. PW Torch dot Com Slash Paper Copy.

now on USA. Not to mention impact NWA Power aw Dark New Japan having even losing access more more excess access of that through their streaming networking on and on MLW I we shouldn't leave them out for sure, ROH and syndication and online. So it's just the idea of paying ten dollars a month so you can see two

five live, that's just not gonna happen. But also, I mean they were excited about you know, Mick Foley in a reality series and Legends House and all that, and they've tried to do the ride a Law in the Table for three and all that, and it's just in the live podcasts, and then they did the Remember the Days of the Renee Young hosted raw pre show. There's so many things they've tried, and it doesn't seem to

me anything has stuck where they believe. That's a difference maker, because I know you and I on the flagship when you were like, oh got it, Life's about to change, you know, Before the network launched and I remember having it on my laptop in the kitchen, watching the live stream of whatever they happened to put on the day it launch, and just keeping an eye on it. And that's not you know, that's not how it works anymore, Like I don't think people do that, And so.

the network if everything goes away? Especially now when you have Corey Gray's and New Day doing podcasts, the idea of oh, the network gives me this access to wrestlers talking with each other about the business or each other, the novelty factor on a lot of that secondary programming, I just don't think as a difference maker to have or lose.

but on a daily basis for multiple hours. And I think they're kind of doing that with the Bump now, which maybe you tell that they're doing this on YouTube instead of their own network, because then they talked about it that they talked about doing like a morning type of show or an afternoon news show, and it just

never materialized. That's what I thought, we're gonna have to be keeping an eye on that sort of thing, and instead it's all just relegated to, you know, one hour show on Tuesday nights, which was what happened to Tuesday being the down night way.

going on over on Monday night Raw. A little surprise, big picture that the ratings haven't moved in a good direction for the show, because I think it's continued to be a better show, a show that I think people who sample it would go, yeah, I like, I like what I'm seeing.

to go back to Raw. It's just, you know, some people are going to try to watch everything, but there are those fans that are going to be more selective and so it's going to take some time. Even though they don't have direct competition on Monday nights from another wrestling company's it kind of does remind me of back in the day when you know, Raw was clearly a better show than Nitro for so long, but Nitro was still winning that ratings battle. I just think people get

out of the habit of watching Raw. Going back to watching a three hour show may feel like a chore, and especially when you start thinking about whatever made them give up on it in the first place, and just.

that is in a good spot. And then you have you know, Becky and Charlotte has two standout characters, and you have Seth the Monday Night Messiah as his thing will leave aside lash Lee and Lana, I just don't want to talk about it this week, but I and I'm probably leaving and then brought you know, kind of brought Lesner and the story of what's going on with him. Although that guys, I guess relates to Drew McIntyre right now. Those are those jump out to me as the top things.

I mean, I say this, it's an all star cast of wrestlers being utilized as good as I've seen collectively. Wwe utilize what they have to work with in a long time.

a much improved show. It's you know, it does give me faith that Vince McMahon is letting Paul Hayman have more creative freedom, whether he's dedicating his time to SmackDown or just signing off in rubber stamping what he's getting on Raw, because it's so much better.

The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties Pass cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed.

sexy Scotsman. And I don't think there's anybody who looks at him and goes, he's a badass, But yeah, he thinks he's sexy, and I don't want to cheer this guy. My friends will can't be weird or something like that. Like, I don't think that's I don't think that's an issue with him. There's something there with him that he can be all things tall people and something stopped Roman from getting their same thing, something stop Seth from getting there.

I think Drew has a huge upside. I think he's a very valuable heel and even better valuable baby face because he gets to break out of a very narrow lane he was in as the grumpy, uptight heel and you know, destined for greatness, but standing behind other people circumstantially for you know, way too long. This is breakoup. I still but when I say transformative, I just don't think he's Hogan or or necessarily even what Daniel Bryan

was for that snapshot of history. That that the glimpse that we got before is kind of muffled a bit by the booking. But I don't I don't know for sure. That's why I bring it up and ask. My inclination is to bet you know, a level down from that, but he's still if they play their cards right and if he beats Brock at Mania, you know, are you set for a few years with a guy who ends up better off than Seth and Rains did as your top in his prime babyface?

It was just the right move to make. And my fear, even when it was Brock hung around the ringside, like, oh, he's going to pull him over and they're going to split this up and have him win the chamber to get to Brock.

sorts of things to really make somebody. So I'm not ruling it out, but I'm just saying I'm not going to panic either, as long as it's not just oh, Brock beats him and six minutes like Brock beats everybody, that would be a huge mistake.

just it feels like Drew. I'm still worried Drew as the flavor of the season because Vince doesn't see a better option and he got talked into it by Paul and I. So until I see it, I'm just not I don't want to get myself too up for it. But I think it's the right move. I mean, Drew looks and he's carried himself. He's carrying himself as a guy who is not intimidated by Brock and he does so in a way that I buy into and I didn't with Seth. That's not the story they told his Seth.

Sets I think I can meet up. I think I can beat him. Drew's like, I'm kay his ass, you know, through Claymore, He's done. I'm not scared of him. And Rain's just doesn't have that. Rains always felt like that video game reporter or the video game wrestler who pops off the screen and is Vincent Man's vision of the ultimate you know, guy who I'm gonna push. But he didn't seem like a fighter. He was the cool dude who knew his place in the shield and then got

over pushed and all that. It's like he had stiff working against him, and those things just aren't there with Drew. So yeah, I think people would buy Drew as as a badass who can beat Brock and he's not shying away from from you know, setting the goal high. So yeah, it's it's fun, It's this is this. So many people are on journeys right now. You know, Edge and Wharton, they're each on a journey. Raymisterio's on a journey. Angel Garza now on a journey filling in for uh Andrade

and Umberto was on a journey. They had he wasn't the flavor of the week who's been discarded. They they're investing in him. You know, he's he's a valuable off, you know, kind of bench player to use an NBA analogy or whatever, like they they're and I think there's an upside for him so on and off And we haven't talked about the women's division there. There's some good stuff going on on Raw. The wrestlers are on journeys and I'm invested in them well.

in that fashion. So yeah, that's why I think there's a really good chance that he ends up beating Brock again, whether it's Mania, Summer Slam.

the next level with a VIP membership. Get shows like this The Way Killer Prossing Podcast, Weight Killer Prosing Post Show, and the pw Torch daily casts on our pw Torch VIP podcast feed with ads and plugs removed from the shows for a streamlined listening experience, and also hear the VIP exclusive shows that I host with Rich Fans and Todd Martin, Everything with Rich Fan and The Fix with Todd Martin signature VP series that you're missing out without

a VIP membership, So go vip here in twenty twenty two and enjoy all the benefits, all the bonus content and the ad free listening experience. Pw torch dot com slash go vi ip. Okay, let's touch on SmackDown again. Kind of a big macro question. Who would have I guess we talked about it earlier to a degree, but it it's a watchable vincement, you know, quintessential. I can't not think of the quintessential stud Muffin when I say that,

but the quintessential vincement Man Brus Pritchard show. And the rating the viewership is fine but not where it should be, but not in a panic state. And you know, you'd say, well, you know, Rhonda and Brock and Roman there clearly, even though it's a little surprising, both Becky and Charlotte, ron raw Sasha and Bailey were hot off turns, You're like, you know, and the Fiend. It's like, this was supposed

to be this star studded show. And you know, Danna Bryant's been a pleasant surprise back in the old Daniel Broyn role. But Ron is gone. Brock's gone. The Fiend is sort of part time and you got to use them in a different, non traditional way. And they have no heels, and after you know, Brian and Rains, there's not a lot there. Bron is sort of a special

attraction guy. I don't know, it just it does feel like and Todd Martin predicted this, and he said last week he was ready to take his victory lap that ros still despite Roman reigns and The Fiend and Bronz Strowman. Ro's the a show still despite being on Fox. And you know we should whisper that because I don't think Fox executives want to hear that no, And.

So I think he when he split the brands up, I think he looked at it and thought, for whatever reason, he had SmackDown laid out the way he needed to. And a lot of it was we got to protect Roman. We can't have all these heels that people actually like. We got to protect the Mighty Roman. And so that's why I think you see kind of a shortage of heeled depth there. You're going to get sham is coming

up at some point, you just know you will. Yeah, I mean, so I think SmackDown is in a bad place because of that, And I won't be surprised if they do another draft or shake up at some point soon and start to undo some of the good that's been done on Raw. But I have more faith than Paul Hayman creatively to just make up for it long term anyway.

direction for six months or so with Brian is champ Fiend in the special attraction role, Braun in the special attraction role, Rains in deeply personal feuds and delaying what is still too soon and maybe I'll never be right again with a fan base, you know, him being against the Fiend in a world title matchup Mania, that to me is sort of the the not you know, it's not a complete overhaul like the Timber Miss Timberros did today, right, but a tweak of given what you have and then

just trying to find a way to get some heels over there that matter, because I mean, and again a new day, He'll turn would be in the mix. The other thing, and it's it's it's always been enough on the table his Turnarrains he you know, go with Brian as champion and have Reins lose to the Fiend in a non title matchup Mania and then Rains goes heal because a lot of people change after they wrestle with

the Fiend. You might have heard that, Jason, Yeah, And then and then use that at Brian fighting for Underneath and you're trying to keep Rains from getting the belt, Like I think there's some things they can do. And then you know, also just you know, strengthening the outer card by doing a better job of Seamus out of the gate than they've done. And by the way, protect Nakamura and Cesarro more than they have, right, you know

that lost by Nakamura. I just there's there's so many things that that they're doing that that diminish how important everything but the top one or two programs. Other than the top one or two programs, it doesn't feel important enough.

Pro Wrestling Than and Now. Together with a rotating chair of co hosts, we go back ten, twenty, even thirty years, review pay per views from top to bottom, talk about where the wrestlers were at the time, and compare what took place then to what is taking place now. You get exclusive access to these and other podcasts as part of your PW Torch vip membership, which is compatible with the Apple Podcasts app. Visit pwtorch dot com slash go vip for details and sign up.

I get the idea. I thought there would have been some buzz for this during the Super Bowl, like Fox advertising their coverage more than they did.

you have a house shows. I mean, they've been running ads, like you know, at live events for the XFL, But I don't know if there's concern like if they run XFL ads on TV, does the XFL need to pay WWE for that because of the uproar over you know, the really truly keeping them separate would is part of the lack of hype on WWE television because of concern that investors had that WWE was giving away promotion for this outside company on promotion that they should be selling.

And did that actually discourage Vince from promoting the XFL to his own audience.

having affairs with quarterbacks. I mean it was just like, it's just like, you couldn't have come up with a better, a more out of touch, tone deaf way to launch counter to a league that Vince thought nobody had fun watching because it's no fun league, when the truth was it was wildly popular, and the way to launch an alternate wasn't to rip on the product that people loved, but just market it as essentially an extension of it

with some fun things thrown in. And you know, I still say the dumbest thing they ever did is the non football people said, we're going to make it more exciting by loosening up on all those defensive rules. And then they wondered why games were six to three because wide receivers are basically being tackled by defenders who because they wouldn't get penalized. Like they loosened up the rules,

think you would make it a harder hitting game. And what it did is it prevented passes from connecting to anybody.

I wouldn't. I wouldn't rule out any of that because with a mistic man running it, even if the football people will scoff if the ratings aren't where they need to be. This is this is Vince trying to fix something that he's embarrassed by.

made a play. Hopefully they did. I assume they did, because he's been backstage, like they're events like in Vegas in the past, at least one of them, so they probably made it play.

But people should check out Pro Wrestling Boom. The you know, diverse mix of people, interviews you get are It's always fun to see who's gonna be on this this coming each week when when you drop that.

PW boom dot com. Once again, that's PW Boom.

Europe or Mexico. There's always a place for wrestlings past and the paradise too, and we've done fun historical shows such as the We Love Liger series celebrating the glorious career of Jusian Thunderliger and our I Was there When shows where our guests will join me to talk about a class bout that they were in attends for. We love variety and you can expect lots of it at the Progress Paradise. Detailed pw tors VIP subscription information on a list of all the VIP benefits is available at

pwrew Torch vipinfo dot com. And yes, all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast apps on iPhone and Android devices, or you can stream them directly from our ad free VIP mobile site.

the week. So take a moment out for us and do us favor and give us a five star rating and Apple Podcasts that helps us on search returns and helps us grow. And if you want, you can add a few comments about what you like about the programs in the comments section. Thank you so much.

top newsmakers in the and also our podcast library dating back to the year two thousand and three. There's no larger, longer spanning pro wrestling podcast library than that that comes with a PW Torch VIP membership. Now we're approaching twenty years of podcasting. Go VIP and dive into our post pay per view roundtables are covered with some of your favorite eras of wrestling, top name, long form interviews, and special format podcasts that we've done throughout the years. Pw

torch dot com slash go VIP. We have a streamline sign up for me and you can pay with PayPal or directly with your credit card or debit card. In one or two minutes from right now, you can be a VIP member and diving into our library. Pw torch dot com slash go vip