10 YRS AGO FLAGSHIP: Cena's comeback promo, Nikki-Brie segment's pros and cons, evaluating progress of Roman Reigns, TNA's future, more

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of calls and emails as usual on the show. This originally live streamed on August twenty six, twenty fourteen, and it is today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast ten years ago. Flakes flashback for Wednesday, August twenty eighth, twenty twenty five.

us today. I host on Tuesdays and Fridays most weeks. This week I'll be hosting on Thursday instead of Friday. My guest will be Mick carsh, former AWA announcer, longtime indie wresting announcer, and he'll be on to talk about Paul hayman early years. Paul Hayman's spent some of his early years in the business in the late a he's

in the AWA, mccarsh was around him. Then we'll talk about Paul and how far Paul has come and just the amazing interviews he has produced lately, and that will Kaian nicey with people learning a lot about Paul with

that DVD that came out this month. And also McK carsh was at a big indie show on Saturday night just outside of d Luth, Minnesota, with a lot of big names on the show, we'll talk about that and just the evolution of and the changes in the indie wrestling scene over the years as Mick has experienced it. He also follows the current wrestling scene and has strong opinions on what goes on in wrestling. He's been following wrestling for decades and decades used to run the Nick

Bockwinkle Fan Club. Nick Bockwinkle because of the AWA kind of fading out of common history references because WWWWF history kind of dominates, doesn't get the acclaim he deserves. One of the best workers of all time. Mick was also a former Torch columnist, So that'd be a good show on Thursday. I hope you can join us live at five point thirty Eastern tomorrow. Just get a couple plugs out of the way right away. Tomorrow Pat McNeil will be hosting the Live care and his guest will be

Kamala the Ugandan Giants. So join Pat for that. That should be fun. And if you did not hear it last Friday, Stone called Steve Austin was back on the show.

Over two hours with Steve Austin. I was on with him one on one doing a long, pretty long form interview talking about today's wrestling scene and getting his thoughts on how wrestling main event wrestlers today are different than main event wrestlers in his day, and his opinions on Roman reigns and seth rollins and many other things going on at WWE, and also so candid in depth outs on his possible return. I got a ton of plugs out of the way at the beginning and set the

stage Kamala tomorrow too. Remember that send in your questions for Kamala and Pat McNeil for tomorrow's show. PW Torchlive Cast at gmail dot com. That is p W Torchlive Cast at gmail dot com. You can also send in right now if you're listening to us live topics you want to discuss on today's show. So now shifting to today's show, Jason Powell from prog Wrestling dot Net joins me. Jason, Welcome to the show. Hey, good to be here, Wade,

excellent to have you. I'm sure a little bit later we'll talk about the Kevin Love trade that became official over the weekend and has been a subject on my Twitter feed at the Wade Keller this afternoon as press conferences were held. Jason, your casual Wolves fan. I know you talked about it on your Q and A for dot net members, but you called me the most optimistic Kimberes fan ever and I should have a jersey, a number retired or something like that. What as a casual

observer the Wolves? Real quick? What is your thought on the I love trade? And maybe we'll get more into it later on.

remembered as a gem of a move. And even if things go poorly, I still think he made the best move he could possibly make for this team right now.

I don't. Actually, I think the two happiest basketball cities right now should be Minnesota or Minneapolis and Cleveland, because I mean, you couldn't think of a better case scenario for Cleveland to get Vin Love, a perfect compliment to Kyrie Irving and Lebron James, and then Minnesota getting what they got instead of just being burned a year from now when Love left for nothing or you know, a Lane trade, which often happens when a superstar force is

a trade. This could set the Woz over the future. So it's fun anyway, had some fun with that. Press conference has just ended an hour or two ago, so it's fresh on my mind and fresh on the Twitter feed. I think Love and anybody who's a Cleveland fan or a Lebron fan who doesn't isn't excited about Love being traded there hasn't watched much Kevin Love because he's gonna be They're gonna win some titles. He's an amazing and cool player. All right, Let's shift the wrestling here and

talk some content from Raw last night. The top item, Jason is John Cena speaking for the first time on TV since the brock lesnar defeat, the crushing defeat. Your thoughts on the job that John Cena did in selling the rematch and responding to what happened at Summer Slide.

I mean, I know they have a pay per view to sell quickly, and I get that, and you have to do something to make people who saw the SummerSlam match think there's a reason John Scene is going to win. But give me a week, you know, give me a week of John Cena doubting himself a little bit something. Instead, they just everything's back to normal and super Scene is back better than ever.

to see what Sena would do. I thought this was a unique circumstance for him to take a beating like that, a guy who normally doesn't take that kind of a beating, to come out and do a different type of promo. And I think they just skipped the whole chapter. And I think that's what you're getting at, Jason. I'm fine with Sena giving himself a pep talk and saying, you know, I'm gonna I've got a strategy I know, I think I know what I did wrong. Lesler's gonna go win

over confidence. I'm going to take advantage of that, like really give us some subst but do that in a week or two right before the pay per view. This I think was a week for him to almost seem like he was in a funk, like he was in a daze, like he was that it really affected him greatly mentally, that he lost the way that he did and sell that match. I do think there's that disappointment, I guess among people who look for Sena to just

be Supersiena, that he was Superscena again. I mean, he's standing on the ring apron and that six man take in the main event, and there's absolutely no sense as he's riling up the crowd and cheering him on and reaching for a hot tag. There's just no sense. Jason, he took a beating of a lifetime that properly sold should have. I mean, if I had my pick, would have led to him skipping Night of Champions and not even being in the ring for you know, a month or six weeks and really selling it.

do they always have to position him so strong? I just think that's part of the reason he stalled out. And it's not like he's in a horrible position and everyone hates him. He obviously has a big fan base and he sells a lot of merchandise. But I just think even his even like his fans, would like to see some more ups and downs, even if they're not consciously thinking of it. It just makes the character so much more compelling when it's not just the same thing

week in and week out. And we just took a break for one week and we're right back to the same thing.

So I thought she she did really well. On the flip side, oh man, Brie Vella is a terrible actress. We're talking like bad porn level acting here.

Nikki was a pleasant surprise, and the interplay was good. During a lot of it, I really did not like and I thought I'd actually just showed a complete lack of like maturity and discipline on the part of the writing team. Assuming it wasn't improvised when Nikki said I wish you died in the womb, it doesn't that that

line just didn't need to be there. For one, it's going too far, just takes people to a whole place that you don't watch wrestling for, you know, thinking of babies dying in the womb is just come on, really, I mean, that's that's part of selling a match. But for one sister to say it to another, what it did is it took a believable sibling conflict with Breeze

at bad acting aside. And you know, because siblings fight, but grown up siblings in their twenties and beyond don't say I wish you died in the womb in the heat of a moment. You don't need to go there. It's like Scott Hall told me on a torch truck that I did with him back.

disbelief and take people out of the moment. That just I didn't like that at all, Json, I just don't. It just felt like a step too far, And I thought Nicky was good enough, she didn't need to go there.

on the switchboard here to Scott. Welcome to the show. Uh, let's know what city you're calling from and what you want to talk about today.

those who don't know. When Jason was working for the Torch, he did audio shows back in the day and we put up via vintage VIP audio shows from ten years ago throughout the week, and some of Jason's reviews are there, and yeah, yeah you were. You were all over John Cena for poopy Just like, why would he say that word? This is so lame, it's it's going to hurt his growth. It's been a broken record with him for ten years since.

And I liked the idea of the nitros, like you were talking about Waite on the hotline this morning, the nitros one hundred hours of Nitro coming next week, and with the Attitude hour week, it looks like, hopefully from the fall, they're trying to make some good moves, and I wanted to hear what you guys thought about that first.

documenting the epic television ratings battle. That's going to be fun. Jason, you were talking over the weekend about the on dot net. I guess it was ondott net weekly about the Shield documentary on the network. I mean, they really have been adding some content, and I think, you know, just in time. It's almost like they almost intentionally kind of went soft in the summer to kind of save it up for late Aufust early September.

be there as soon as the thing launched. But they took a different approach, and yeah, it looks like they're starting to do a little bit more with it. I just hope that it's going to be a little more staggered now with different launch points, with the Europe still coming on board, because I don't want to feel like, Okay, nothing is going to happen for six months and then all of a sudden they'll drop new stuff on it.

So at least this way, with Europe coming in a little I guess the United Kingdom coming in a little bit late, that should help with that a little bit, I would think, because they're going to still want to make a push to try to keep those subscribers as well.

playing off the obnoxiousness of nine nine nine. But if they're not really obnoxious, then how can I be obnoxious? Ironically? Then I'm just going to be obnoxious without the irony And that's well.

was spout here a lot. That's why we are the live cast but not the pre tape cast, because he just right that live experience anyway, I you know, that's just derailed everything. I don't even know we're talking about oh yeah, nine nine nine, And then Networked they were less obnoxious about pushing nine nine nine. It's kind of become JBL's thing other than yeah, the merchandise and signs in the crowd.

I mean, I guess not completely. For gigs, they're pushing all the new content, but I don't know if they want to push nine to ninety nine right now, because I know we've been looking at it, like, you know, August twenty fourth was kind of D day, but I looked at my account just to make sure it was going to roll over, and for me, it's September third, and I signed up on day one and I did I must have taken the free preview, but somehow they I think they added a little bit of time to

it on top of that. Yeah, I don't know if they just figured, well, we gave some people five free days, so we're gonna give everybody five free days, because you know, there's obnoxious people out there who are like.

on sale. I think I think the big sign up day was probably five days before Mania and three days after Mania, and so I think we're probably at a position where we're gonna be looking at six weeks of D days because there's gonna there was a stretch of time where the first six hundred fifty some thousand subscribers were over a six week period, and I think they were pretty spread out. So the D Day for them is more like a D six weeks. It doesn't have

quite the ring to it. But yeah, I mean the Nitral thing I think is big, and I think a lot of people are going to really enjoy reliving Nitro and the Moday Night Wars series is a good companionship and adding some more raw attitude eras shows to it is good. You know, this would be a good time to maybe call it Steve Boston and see if he can, you know, hype the network a little bit for you.

But he's busy with a lot of other things, and you can find out what those things are by listening to my interview is Steve Boston for over two hours on Friday's webcast on the People with You Torch live cast feed. All right, let's go back to Scott s if he has anything else you wants to add. Scott anything else?

they did that whole thing? They gave him a one month title reign and then that was it with that annual, because I remember when the demise of Evolution, like I remember, I thought that Orton was at least like looking back at some of the old newsletters, lad, yeah, you could see that the original plan was to hold out to do Orton versus Triple eighth ch at WrestleMania twenty one, and I always wondered why they, you know, rushed to it and I know Batista got, you know, looking now

looking like a comparison to twenty fourteen, you would hope that Roman reigns can organically get the kind of crowd response that Batista got, that that you know Rode from Survivor series till about you know till WrestleMania where he wanted the belt from helmstuff from Triple H. But you know, why did they do it the way they did and why was Orton only getting that one month rain. I will be listening to your response, guys. I enjoy all

your works. Thank you for everything. Keep up the great work. And wait, I'm really looking forward to Nick Carr.

Randy to be a younger champion than Brock. I'm not sure they held the exact same version of the world title, but still Randy gets the claim of being the youngest world champion ever, and I know my thought at the time was this seems a little premature. We're all high on Randy in a lot of ways, but giving him the world title at times felt like they just did it just despite lesnar So Lesnard didn't hold that record anymore,

but they weren't necessarily long term committed to him. And then Randy has had issues all along with being having issues with authority going back. I don't know all the details of his military situation, but he's got a rep for kind of having issues with authority. Sometimes it's good because he's outspoken in a way that I think the

wrestling industry needs more of. Booker T and I talked about that on the Live cast a month or so back when he was a guest, how Booker was kind of the guy who would always peak up in the locker room and people would look to him when there was a controversial issue and see what he was going to say to kind of shake things up. And I hear through the grape vine a lot that Randy expresses himself to at least a certain inner circle of people,

his frustrations with how things go sometimes. And then there's maturity issues, especially ten years ago with Randy and uttering stuff that upset management, that caused him to lose faith that he would be the model citizen and a model employed that John Cena began to emerge as being So I don't have a specific memory, Jason. Do you of that timeline though, and that exact situation with Orton?

PW boom dot com. Once again, that's PW boom dot com.

the original programming that I want to watch. It's more a vintage wrestling that I'm interested in seeing, and I would definitely be in favor of subscribing if they had, perhaps like a show that would feature a certain feud from different territories where I could catch up and see the promos and the matches. Every territory has memorable feuds,

and some of them I never got to see. I never got to watch the AWA, never got to watch Mid South, and those are things that I would love to see if they had a program, But they don't really monetize or show us those old territory tapes yet and when they do, then perhaps I'll become a customer. But that's one thing, even as a longtime wrestling fan, that's what I want to see and they're not showing it, so I'm not going to be, as of yet a subscriber.

So I just thought that was a point where they haven't heard me in the live past before.

up front. But there's this long tail, you know, they call it the long tail in marketing and that kind of thing where there's a people who are not part of that initial group, but they need a lot of little things to get them excited about the product. And so there's gonna be like this long there's gonna be a lot of niches basically, and you're one of the

niche people WWE. It seems Jason will throw to you on this it seems like they've not disregarded the niche people, but they haven't worked, I think, as hard as it's called for in order to make the niche people feel like what they want is a priority for WWE. It's like WWE wants the first eighty percent and they don't want to work particularly hard to get the other group. And maybe they think because they've maybe they think they've gotten ninety nine percent already, Jason, and it's not worth

the effort. But I think maybe the long tail represents it's another forty percent of growth, But it doesn't come just as easy as flip in a switch and saying, watch our new pay per views.

appeal to a bigger audience. So why not get that material out there if if you're hoping for them to put kind of a modern spin on things, take a WrestleMania rewind approach to something from an old territory that that might be wishful thinking. I mean, I would enjoy it too, but I think there's probably a smaller audience. I mean, maybe you can reach out to some fans that way and get them to start checking out some

of the older content. I don't know that they're going to see it as as time and money well spent to start repackaging some of the I don't like to take something from the UWF and turning it turn it into like a one hour, one hour piece of content with like comments from Jim Ross and Bill Watson, that kind of thing. I just don't know that we'll get that ever, but at least get that, at least get

that the old television shows out there. There's no reason, in my opinion, for the whole But I don't know what they're waiting for.

I mean, yeah, that those expectations are too high, especially given the current subscriber levels, but I do think that they could have done more, if nothing else, just to communicate to people subscribers somehow, some way that there is a that there's going to be a method to this and that they will be catering to people who do want to see that history and are interested in that. And I just think they've left people kind of not

sure when that's going to happen. There's some people want something so niche, so specialized that they just have to kind of be patient in WWE's deciding they're going to go after the bigger audience first and work their way to the niche audience. And if that's the case, well

then it's going to be a slower climb. But eventually they're going to get the people who are part of that long tail with niche desires eventually they'll get them on board, and in a way, it might be good news for WWE that there's still people out there like you, John, who are waiting and will subscribe because they've got all

they can handle right now. They feel they're doing things in the right order of priority, and it's just going to take them a little time to get to the long tail content instead of the big stuff that's going to get you one hundreds of thousands of people right out of the gate.

the original package. I don't need to wrap a rounds, I don't need a commentary, although that would be fun, but just putting him out there would be something that I would be interested in and I would maybe spend the money at that point. But until then, way do you get my money for a VIP members.

the character better than anything he had done so far. And since that time, I'm a fan of the Bo Dallas characters. So hopefully get continue to get some more airtime.

But my question is, as you can tell, I'm a big fan of the old time territory wrestling what I grew up watching, and there are some things that you and Jason will often talk about that are missing now that maybe could be brought back, and I just wanted to bring up for them and see if you could only pick one, if you were in charge and you could make one happen, what would it be? And the things that I wrote down, were you know more use

of managers, although that's happening a little bit. The after match interview oftentimes in the territory shows the person win the match, come down, talk to Gordon Soli or Bob Kyle or someone. But after the match. In other words, winning the match was your key to an interview, which I thought was always interesting. Time limits on the matches, and also squash matches, and just so you know, my pick would be squash matches. But i'll take your answer Offty.

I appreciate everything you guys do. I love the show. Thanks a lot, Thank you very much. John, really appreciate it. Jason, I'll let you start managers, postmatch interviews, time limits on matches or squash matches.

a great job. Not everyone can be Paul Hamon, but still I think there are various examples of wrestlers who would benefit from having a mouthpiece, and not just in WWE, I mean T and A. Maybe it might just be kind of the feeling is that they don't have a lot of money to spend and they're not going to spend it on mouthpieces right now. But I think they would really benefit. I think if they brought in the

right manager or managers. Ideally, there are guys that really struggle on the mic in that company that I think would be over so much more if they had someone else doing the talking for them. So I'm a big believer in managers.

and I think people would actually enjoy them. I think if if WWE Network were to put Superstars back on the air, the nineteen eighty Superstars show or the AWA shows back when it was just squash match interview squash

match interview. I think people who never really experienced it in a way that in a setting where it was really well featured would gain an appreciation for it, you know, just having a focus on one guy, his ring entrance, his key moves, his finisher, and the jobbers who are just these you know, pathetic whimps of people taking these great bumps and selling the hell out of these signature spots.

It's part of the formula that I think makes pro wrestling work, which is building anticipation for guys who win squash matches finally facing each other. I get the realities of the different era we're in, but I think there's a way to make it work. But I love postmatch interviews and in WWE does it now, and then I

wish they did it more. I think it's good to ask wrestlers to be in character and in the moment after they win a match or peck get a reaction sometimes after they lose, because I think it challenges them to break from script and not be superscripted when they talk and just react as if they're not just going through the motions of something they were told to do, but are kind of believing their own their own act, and they feel like what they did really was a

loss or really was a win. I think a big part of what sells wrestling is the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat, and sometimes that is missing. So all your suggestions are good. I guess time Lewis on matches would be my least the fourth on the list. But post match interviews, managers and squashes I think would all be good things to add back to the mix. All right, let's go next here on PW Torch Live

cast to Matt VIP member Matt, thanks for colin. Let us know the city or Collins from today and what you want to talk about, Matt, Go ahead, Matt. I didn't go to Matt already, did I?

more games because of it. So I mean, that's absolutely good.

a streamlined listening experience. And also hear the VIP exclusive shows that I host with Rich Fan and Todd Martin, Everything with Rich Fan and The Fix with Todd Martin, signature VIP series that you're missing out without a VIP membership. So go vip here in twenty twenty two and enjoy all the benefits, all the bonus content and the ad free listening experience. Pw torch dot com slash go vip.

does help increase the rankings. We've been around so long as a show that we have a lot of listeners maybe three four years ago reviewed things at iTunes. But it can go when and if you're a newer listener or you just never got around to it'd be great if you did that. It does. It does actually help our exposure and help us grow when when you take time to do that. The iTunes formula recognizes when when

we get good ratings and additional reviews. All right, let's let's shift gears now back to the full min So let's see what Eric codes six to six one has in store for us. Six six one. I don't think i've seen this aer code before. State your name in the city you're calling from.

a bunch of Slanders stuff on it. So you even implied more. You said it's one in a hundred that it's a coincidence. So you agreed with me last time I called. Even in your newsletter you agreed with me. But then when I called last time, you were telling me it was conspiracy theories. You brought up the moon landing, you brought up JFK, and then you lied and said it didn't even happen, And here you are agreeing with me. You're caught.

fitting through commercials. WWE has tried a lot of different things to try to be live programming, you know, or come across with live programming. It didn't result in a big the big uptick or as big of an uptick in TV rights fees as they wanted. But we are, I mean, we are in a changing landscape in WWB network with programming on demand where you can watch it live or on delay, does seem to be the formula

for the future. And pro wrestling is kind of in this middle zone of you need to watch it live, but you could also get away with watching it on delay.

even if it is two hours. But by and large, I think when it's three hours, you just make it easier for people to make the decision to go ahead, hit the DVR, start watching it an hour in even skipboard, you know, fast forward through some of the stuff you don't want to see, or even the next day where you just kind of cherry pick, Okay, I read this was good whatever. So I mean it's, yeah, it's live, but I think they need to do more just that. When the product is clicking, I think then it feels

like it's must see live material. When it's a show like Last Night, I mean, you never know what you're gonna get. But still it's just when they're when there's shows like that, if you're kind of in a slump, then I think for a lot of people they just start to feel like, eh, I can catch this on the DVR and we'll probably see a lot of that coming up now with football season.

you know, who knows. But I don't think you can just say it's all John Cena's fault that. I don't look at it that way at all. I just think this is the way he was written on Monday Night.

to sell the rematch. But there's the story that we're desperate to tell, which is, don't worry John Cena fans. Johnsen is okay, He's here. He's happy. It's a feel good show. Please tune in and watch us. And John Cen is still okay. Like I wonder if Jason, if they didn't kind of know that. Yeah, if it was

nineteen seventy eight, they would have done things differently. But in this TV ratings driven era, they the John Cena fans just want to see John Cena happy and healthy, and maybe they just kind of fast forward past that chapter for that reason.

gymnastic spotfests. Is there a room, Jason for a promotion to have a niche that isn't, as we as Alan put it, gymnastics spotfest, but rather something that feels and looks more real. I wrote a column about this a few years ago at the peak of USB, saying, you know, there's room here for promotion to present itself like a

real sport with a straight face. You don't have to pretend after you're off the air, you know, when if you're doing a media interview with you know, multi channel news or something or variety, that it's not a work, you know. I remember TAZ and a variety of wrestles

in ECW when they went on pay per view. I wanted people to think their wrestling was real, and I was just like, that's an uphill that You've got a strong headwind trying to do that for so many reasons, but when they're trying to get on pay per vi they wanted people to think they were actually real. Unlike the two big promotions in the midst of the Monday

Night War. I don't think that'll work, but I think in the context of the show Jason, there's maybe room for a niche promotion that goes much more straightforward sport. I mean some would say Ring of von or hit some of that, although that has a lot of the quote gymnastics spots as as part of it. Two.

the gymnastics. I don't know that TNA has the roster for it right now, and it may take some time for if a promotion were to do this, to find that roster, because it's just I don't know that you really see that taught in too many school I think it would take some time, but I think people could. I think they could, they could at least make the shift to that right now. I would prefer that over kind of the WWE Light Slash ECW throwback, whatever it

is they're going for right now. I'd really like to see someone try this and just take yeah, a good physical approach to pro wrestling, and especially you know, not the tongue in cheek and everything. You know, you know, we got to remind you that we know it's all sports entertainment silliness. Now, I just actually play it straight for the two hours you're on the air each week. I think it would be great, and I think they'd be shocked at at how well it would be received.

in recent years. Whatever their specialty was is what they would convince her was the right direction to go in, because nobody's going to tell their boss the best thing for you to do is something I'm incapable of doing if you're a wrestler. So the people who had the power have always kind of pushed Dixie to promote a wrestling in a way that made them the most valuable.

And nobody with power is going to have I shouldn't say never ever, but people with power generally are not going to present a whole new approach to wrestling because the reason that they have power is they've done they're good at something that has been done before, and that's been the catch of not having a visionary student of history with a vision for where it could go that's new. When you don't have that in the number two or number three promotion, then you don't end up getting a

fresh outlook. You don't get a fresh approach that maybe has a chance to really explode in a new way. What you get is what TNA Jason has always been.

It's been WW Light or WW nostalgia trying to go back in time and relive Nitro, or it's been WWE Light trying to get Christian and the Dudley's and Kurt Angle and Hulkoge and Eric Bischoff, and it's it's always like Wow, you know, if we can just come across like we're either you know, old WW or we're just another WWE show and you just stumbled upon another WW show you didn't know existed. Because look, here's all these ex WWE stars that you wondered where they went. Just

tune in and watch us. They never just established that identity like Paul Hayman talked about. So I do think there's room for it, but I think there's also room for the gymnastics spotfest style too, you know, as a niche of a promotion that has an identity. Jason, I was really intrigued with Paul Hayman's comments a couple of weeks back where he talked in more detail about the idea he presented to TNA about doing a very youth

oriented product. And I don't know if that included a very strict, narrow style that would stand out, or if you want to do something youth oriented, but that had a wide array of styles. But you know, Paul's one of those guys who would have shaken things up, and he would be the guy probably with a vision for change, because as you've talked a lot about too on your Members Show audio shows, Paul doesn't. He's not a guy likes to look back and just you know, relive ECW.

It's not something he likes to talk a lot about, or think about or analyze. He likes to move forward and come up with the next big thing.

how how many old guys do you need? Talking? And Yeah, and getting back to the whole like the X division style, I'm convinced that it's not even so much that it has to be MMA style straight up. You know, every match is like that, Like you're saying, I also think there's room. It's just the concept of going two hours every Thursday night or Wednesday night now, I guess for impact and just treating it like it's a sport, not

abandoned the silliness. And hey, I get a kick out of Rockstar Spud too, And it doesn't mean there can't be a place for him to be funny and in different ways, but just some of the skits and the backstage cameras and just take a different approach, and I really think it would pay off.

for different moves. I mean, there's a lot more that goes into that than I think the average viewer realizes they really placed the camera in the right spot to hide things, and then if it looks good, they'll show her replay from a new angle and rains of Superman punches, and they're coming from all different directions. A lot of times can look weak if they don't get quite the right direction. Although, speaking of which, Jason, the thing that kind of scared me the most was the cinder block.

Have we seen the last cinder block being thrown into a ring post and shattering? I hope?

rains would be thrown that stuff around. But I just regardless of whether they should have done it or not in terms of showing that it shatters upon impact on metal, I just who didn't see the possibility that maybe this is a safety concern. I mean, Cole seemed genuinely concerned for Lawler when he asked if he was okay.

crowd is like really cheering right now. But anyhow, on on Brain, how do you think it's going to pan out between now and Wrestlemandi if they try and follow through with uh, you know every week we see rock Lestern and giving these off and interviews and rock Lesters pusing these off the matches and brains is kind of like floundering on the mic and like working really hard to have a two star match and if things keep me, I just feel like five time Wrestleman he comes around, Uh,

he's just gonna get food hard, especially with the King of Bryan comes back. The neighbors keeps continuing with the following level work because I just I don't know. I just think when Rains gets that point, if they they follow through it, they brock Lesards just doing these awesome performance as a team, and he's that crowd get a turn off and I want to get your guy on that.

That said, the progression has been slow enough that I would have a fallback plan as I talked about with Bruce Mitchell last week on this show. I wouldn't I wouldn't scrap the plan for Rains right now, but I wouldn't be afraid to call an audible in January either. If it just he's not ready, We're worried about this. We think the fans like you know this guy or that guy more, I would at least be open to the idea of sitting down and discussing is this the

best move right now for us in January? If I were in their shoes, Matt, you had to follow up.

worry and concern. And that's that's I just he's not I write I talked about on the Keller Hotline in more detail, and I talked with Steve Austin about it last Friday. It there's things he needs to do to connect with the crowd more, and he The good news is, as Austin said last Friday here on the live cast there, he spent time with Roman Reigns off camera, and Roman has it in him. You know that he's a funny

guy and he's got charisma. I pointed out a very specific situation on TV recently with Steve where I thought Roman showed a side of himself for not seeing enough of that. If he shows more that, I think he'll connect with the fans. But it's it could be a bumpy road and it's going to be a learning experience. It'll be fascinating to watch. Anyway, go ahead.

like it. But if they didn't pull the plugs on it, which I just don't, I just don't see him get there. If he has something special, save it, you know, like they used it. You only have one shot. If he goes to Wrestlemani and that kind boos them, he's gonna have a tough tough time covering from that rest of his career, you know, to get back and get back.

the rumors turned out to be. But if they do have access to the rock, I mean, it doesn't set you up, obviously with your next next big Star, but if they feel like the WrestleMania Network subscription push is more important at that point, Rock versus Legendar is a pretty marquee matchup, and we know they wanted to go there with Wressele Nanny already.

that's not likely. I wouldn't say it's impossible. I think there's I mean, if Rains doesn't get over Jason, then we might see an acceleration of trying to do some of the ideas that I talked about over the weekend on the VP Weight Teller Hotline in terms of how to incorporate Sting and Hulk Hogan and John Cena and Steve Austin and I think had some other legend in the mix. You know, there's these kind of wild cards that you can play, and I went over a bunch

of scenarios for VFP members about that. I mean, they could end up with a week's show relatively speaking for us Mania among their core, main full time guys, and they might have to, you know, sweeten it up with some legends and kind of legacy stars to try to create some novel matchups to sell it. But their go right now is to go with Rains, and I think they just see him there. It's not a slow build

in the sense that they're giving him three years. But I think they're not panicking yet and there is time to make adjustments. And I'm not quite as pessimistic as Matt that they can't correct I won't say correct course, but just you know, have him find his way in his connection with the crowd, because there is something there that I also, you know, I agree is worth looking

at and investing in. What do you think they're react What do you think the thoughts on Rains would be right now if word hadn't kind of gotten out that he was the guy, would there be more of a push what I think, my personal guess would be less skepticision. But do you think some of the people, the hardcore fan would be rallying behind him more ago and they got to do more with Rains Randy Orton, But we need to see more with Rains.

is the chosen one. I just don't think more than three four, five, six, seven eight percent of the audience is because as a lot of people who attend WW shows, a lot of people millions and millions and millions watch raw and the percentage wise they're just not studying websites and listening to podcasts at a number that I think would be noticeable if so. My point is, if Rains was connecting with the crowd, he has had every chance to do it, regardless of whether word got out or not.

Like I just I think when you live in the insider wrestling information bubble, in a sense, you think everybody is privy to that or it's everyone's processing it, Like, oh, I'd be more into Rains, but I didn't think he's being you know, pushed hard at us and we're being told to cheer him. I just think that stuff happens more organically and out out of the realm of podcasts, newsletters and websites and apps. So my thinking is, regardless

of word getting out, that Rains is a guy. His reaction that he gets in live buildings has to do with his connection with the crowd that night and on television in previous weeks, a lot more than information leaking from behind the scenes, way way more so, it's up to Rains to go on TV and get that crowd reaction.

We invite that interaction, let us know what you think of what we're saying, and let us know what you want us to talk about and ask us specific questions. Wadekeller Podcast at pw torch dot com.

off with the product lately. He had no idea. Rains was, you know, the Mania guy where he was wondering, I can't remember what match he threw out and was like, no, the plan is you know, Rains and Brock, and his eyes lit up like, oh, I like that. So I mean, there's one casual viewer right there, and I'm with you. I believe there are many more that don't know he's the guy and just are enjoying watching him right now, wondering what happens next with him. They may not even

be looking at him challenging Brock right now. But if the build is good enough, you know, obviously that's the key, is if the build is good enough. As far as the rumble, it last year was tricky. They were in Pittsburgh and my first thought on it was, oh, it's you know, it's the crowd there. It was just a Pittsburgh crowd. But it wasn't you know, after talking with people who attended to show, we would hear from some people that said no, it was a lot of people

traveled for the Rumble. And the reason I bring that up is because it felt it had kind of a mania feel to it. I don't know exactly if we'll get that this year. If you're going to have that, I can't even remember off the time my head where the Royal Rumble is at, but I don't know that you're going to get that hardcore fan traveling all over the place. I mean East Coast is a little more convenient for those fans. And without remembering off the top of my head where the Rumble is this year, I

don't know that you'll get it. But if they are worried about it, I want to approach it. I came up with if they want Rains to be the guy, but they're worried about the backlash, make the last two guys, Roman Reigns and John Cena. I mean, you run, you know, and you do run the risk of the fans just boo the hell out of both of them. But I really don't think so.

that this isn't real. It's a mirage. He's not over with the actual fan base. It's just this group of people starting. Yes, Chance, and it's fun to chance. Yes. So the internet fans who love him but aren't big enough to really support our company are huge company. They're starting the s Chance, and then the mainstream fans that make up ninety percent of our audience. They don't really like Daniel Brian and see him as a top guy,

but they're all chanting along because it's fun. And that's why they tried to prove that when they tried to glone. The shifted the yes chance to Daniel to Big Show, and it flopped people that are like, I'm not chanting yes for Big Show last fall. And then you know, even Stephanie's kind of doing it with her things Steph' best Steph. And they've been other instances of it. It just wrestlers get over in crowds of five, ten, fifteen

thousand people, not because of anything the Internet says. And I'm saying that as somebody who's made a living off of quote the Internet, so to speak, and before that, you know, dirt sheets, going back to the late eighties. That's been my career, and I've consistently downplayed our influence on crowds of ten or fifteen thousand people. I think

sometimes we're the canary and the coal mine. I think sometimes people who study the industry really closely and aren't in the wrestling bubble where the people in power say things that everybody nods along and says yes. I don't dare disagree with you, because that would be bad for my career. I think people get in that or insulate themselves from any different opinions. We're not in there, Jason.

We get differing opinions. We get, you know, yelled at and called out a lot for our opinions, and people don't fear doing so. And so I just I think if Roman Reigns is ready to be the headliner at WrestleMania wwe should have nothing to fear about the Philadelphia crowd. And it has nothing to do with Internet fans. It has to do with the way they promote them and present them and what Roman Reigns is able to do

to connect to the crowd. And again, I'll just I'll point to you and Bruce last week on the live cast if you want to hear more on it, and I'll point you to my discussion with Steve Austin, who's around Roman Reigns last week in LA And I just encourage you to check out those two conversations two from more on it. Trust me, we're gonna have a lot more to say every week, probably about Roman Rags as we go forward. Let's try to get in a couple more calls here. We'll go to Eric go two five six.

This is Alabama, I believe, Please state your name in the city you're calling from.

members after Raw. Jeff Hardy's a guy one of the very few people at WWE could sign who would make a difference, who can also work house shows and make a difference in ticket sales, and he can sell merchandise, and he can work pay per views, and you can do a money match with him. I think Jeff Hardy against bray Wider, Jeff Hardy against Seth Rollins even feels WrestleMania worthy to me if they did the right thing with Jeff Hardy, and so I was intrigued by that.

It felt a little random. What's your take on promoting the Jeff Hardy thing on the network.

So if the contract comes up and he already knows okay T and I's not gonna be able to afford me, or he just wants to change of pace a little more security, whatever, they should jump all over it. Absolutely. I know he'll probably. I don't know how the strike system works. Does he lose a strike now because enough time has passed? And in his case, I mean, I think Jeff Hardy's in a much better place, clearly, and

that's awesome, but he's been gone from the company. That's one where I would disagree with taking a strike away. If you're active with the company and you're passing all their drug tests and all that, great, but if you just disappear and go somewhere else. Should you really have a strike taken off?

it's been the pattern. You you covered WWE long enough, and you realize they pay attention to that kind of thing when there's media scrutiny and when there isn't, they don't, or government scrutiny or congressional scrutiny, and when there isn't, they don't. And it's been a pattern in WAVES for twenty five years, and that we're in that pattern right now.

So I honestly don't even know that it would cross their minds when bringing him in to even be worried about hypocrisy and taking a strike away because that policy is is they have a lot of latitude on how they execute and interpret it.

he would. I think he's got the taste of kind of the good life, just with a little bit more of a reduce schedule in TNA. And there have been times where I know he's you know, people who were on the road with him were saying he's doing as much as ever. You know that people had worked for both companies said he was out there constantly. But this is back what he was having a lot of issues too, And it seems obviously nowadays they're just not running as

many shows. But you know, with the young daughter, and who knows what he would be interested in. But he's a guy where you know, obviously you push to get him on the road, you push to get what you can if you're WWE. But if he wants to reduce schedule, he's a guy.

it always does. All right, let's go to Eric code eighth five, California. Whoa eight o five A lot of background, nooids are sorry, Please state your name in the city you're calling from.

that they've worked ten years to earn. The trust of it. What you're going to see cinderblocks, and you're going to see innuendo, and you're going to see crazy characters that you like, like Dean Ambrose, but you're not You're just you're not going to see pasties on breasts and simulated sex acts. That's not going to happen. And frankly, I think the reason people miss the Attitude era is because Stone Cold, Steve Austin and the Rock and DX were

awesome at what they did. And the way to bring that back to the Attitude Era or the part of it that made the most the part of the Attitude Era that I think was was the main reason people really really liked that era is because of the top stars and the moment in time in the Monday Night War. Jason, your thoughts that you nailed it.

Anya time, it seems like they push the envelope. E. Bench has even talked about going into PG thirteen territory, and I'm fine with that. I Mean, I enjoyed the Attitude Air as much as anybody but to see a shift like that today, the world has changed too. When you and maybe some of it just it's T and a. But when you see T and A kind of do some risk ay things more often than not. As somebody who lived through the Attitude era, when I see it now, it feels trashy. And maybe it was back then a

little bit, but culture was different. Jerry Springer was red hot. It's just things have changed so much since then.

I don't think that's not the start of PG. That kind of language and cinderblocks being thrown at people. I mean, that's something maybe they wouldn't have done when Linda was running for office and WWE was trying to erase the image that they had. If you if you go back and read back issues of the Pros and Torture newsweutter. I put on the cover and I rang the felt

multiple times. But during the Attitude air, they started pushing things more than I thought was beneficial for them, and on the cover I wrote a sidebar cover story saying it's time to pull back. They're now just being extreme out of petulance, out of just the desire to see how far they can push. It was bad for business, and it was a very short time later they started paying a big price for it, with sponsors dropping out,

bad publicity and that kind of thing. So it's just even the attitude are a ran its course, That's not what makes wrestling work. I would say for almost everybody. Is cool baby faces that you are excited to see, when you want to see, when you have a reason to root for them, whatever that reason is, you have a reason to root from in heels that you take satisfaction and seeing get shown up, get what they have coming and lose and doing it in an athletic, bombastic way.

But you don't need the r rated content for progrestling to work on a large level. Dean Ambrose, as Jose said, and I give him, I mean, I give Dean Ambrose credit for being attitude like in an era where there's a little bit less that he can get away with. That said Jason. We've been critical of seth rollins and mean Ambrosen some of the kind of childish, almost Benny Hill like gits that they've done. I don't know where I pulled that out of, but you know, to promote

their feud. You know, they did go a little Benny Hill on us. I expected some of the Benny Hill music in the background during a couple of their skits, you know where it got kind of slapsticky, and so, you know, I mean, he's been hurt a little bit by that. I say two, although it doesn't really matter because he's going away and he'll come back and be strong.

over the years. Give me some babyface characters that do have a little bit of attitude, if you will, that don't just stand on the stage and watch as the authority tears everyone down. Bring back the cool factor to the babyfaces, and not just one or two guys, you know, have them stand up for themselves a little bit, not just be corporate pushovers. Who are you know, just more concerned with having a job than doing the right thing.

wrestling is you know. It's it's that sense of anything going to happen, and these are Outlaws, and WWUE has pushed back against that so much and the desire to be something else other than the winners of the pro wrestling battle, the pro wrestling war, and they want to be something different, and they want to be higher brow and Linda Run you know, Linda is going to be a senator in WWE's publicly traded and we're on USA

Network and on and on and on. They want all these things and it's I'm not saying that it hasn't in some ways worked really well for them, but they have to keep their eye on the fact that the biggest boom period happened when they had Stone Cold Steve

Austin as their top guy. And he was a throwback to the Outlaws, the guys who you didn't know what they were going to say next, and they were anti corporate and they didn't Yes he had the T shirts and yes there were you know, announcers, but it was Jim Ross, you know, counting his catchphrases and stuff like that,

but Steve didn't feel corporate. I just transcribed for this week's Progressing Torture Newsletter Steve Austin from Friday's interview that I did with him talking about how he sat down with physic man once and they were going over their promo,

and it's great how Steve relays it. He's like, Vince McMahon, I am going to give you the stutter, you know, whatever the quote was, and Vince like, I want your a promo, Steve, and Steve said to him, I'll give you my a promo when I'm in front of ten fifteen thousand people and the adrenaline is slowing, you know. And too often wrestlers feel like they on air that they're just reciting lines they memorized and they're scared to

screw up because they'll be chewed out afterwards. God forbid, somebody put a face up, put their hand in the face, as Stephanie McMahon like Dusty Rhodes did to say, talk to the hand as a way to show up Stephanie.

And now Dusty hasn't been seen since on TV because that wasn't scripted, and that was against the unwritten rule that you do exactly what you're told, exactly when you're told, you do not use your instinct or improvise, even if you're a guy who's drawn more money than all but a dozen wrestlers in the past twelve you know, during his twenty year round, which was Dusty Rhoades. His instincts aren't always great, but you don't want to because you're

worried about one thing that doesn't work. Take away the seven or eight things that on instinct when you're winging it do work. And that's frustrating. And I think a lot of fans sense that, and I think with Dean Ambrose, that's what Jose identifies with, is that stone cold Steve Austin. Anything can happen at this moment. Feeling that used to be and still could be and should be a dominant feeling you have when watching wrestling. How much of this too, waight?

You know, who wants to worry about the phone call ring ringing because you know your top star is upset with you, or who worries about somebody saying the wrong thing because you've loosened up the scripting of matches and promos. I mean, I get that, but I think you're in the pro wrestling business and it's beneficial to you to accept some of that that that's some of that comes with the territory.

being groomed to be the next top guy. Yeah, I remember a time and it was my favorite time in professional wrestling in w W was after Stone Cold on the Rock kind of made their exit, but before John Cena became the guy where I just remember like just really good wrestling and if there was no there was no top one guy that I can remember, but they were always like top heel champions and then you always had like all the baby faces chasing them, and maybe

they didn't get great decisive wins as far as the heels go, but they always kept the feuds going to where you get at least three months out of a feud and then they move on to the next babyface, next baby For one guy that got that opportunity at the Rumble and he took out the heel, then another hill would come along and take the title from him and you could kind of start all over, and I just remember getting great matches.

he wanted to see that baby face win. You know, there were two guys who you wanted to see them dot down and they would win by usually cheating. It would hardly ever clean, but it made you feel good about seeing two or three pay per views with the same opponent because you wanted the baby face to get that comeback.

power and that people talk about. It really is the baby faces by and large, and the Bench is he's just he sees it that way and he's been very successful with that approach, having that top baby face star, whether it's been Hogan or Austin or Rock or Savage, And I mean some guys have been more successful and obviously seen. And now you want to have that poster boy for your company, the guy that's going to sell a lot of merchandise. I wish they would shake up

the formula a little bit more than they do. But at least right now you have Rock Lesner. We'll see how far they go with it. But it does feel it does start to feel a little bit too predictable when they when they take that approach way. But it's hard to argue with the with the track record of success.

But it doesn't mean every other GM is an idiot. And there are busts. And what you have to do is you have to go back and look at that moment in time on Draft night, What did you, as an NBA reporter or an NBA fan say about the draft order at that moment in time. You don't get to go two years later and go, I'm blaming this GM because this guy was a bust and this guy picked two spots later turned into a superstar. This GM

is horrible because there's a lot of gms. There's a lot of GMS who pass up these guys who are late round picks. That's what makes them late first round or early second round picks, because almost every GM in the league passes them by picking other people who end

up flaming out. So it doesn't mean that with the information you have at the moment, you didn't make a reasonably a reasonable call that a lot of people thought, yeah, that might work out, but there's gonna be one out of twelve people in the mid to late first round, you know, late in the first roun, but one out of twelve it's going to turn into a rotation player

and occasionally a star. That's going to happen. And if one GM does it over and over again, then they deserve credit, But not every other GM should be called an utter failure because they didn't get that one out of twelve pick that ten other gms missed out on either. With Roman Reigns bringing it back to wrestling, he was a good first round draft pick. He was a good guy to pick. I don't disagree with looking at him

and apparently knowing him outside of the ring. People who know him outside of the ring they go this guy has that in factor. I trust Sean Waltman's judgment when it comes to evaluating talent, and he was somebody who he says he was one of the first people, maybe the first person to say to Hunter this, keep your eye on this guy. You know, protect him, build him up. So if Roman Rags doesn't work out, it doesn't mean

it was a wrong choice to go with him. It just means there was a chance it might not work out, and that happened to occur. And it may not even

be Roman Raine's fault. It could now be the fault of the promoters for not featuring him in the right way, not giving him the slack or giving him the confidence to go do his own thing, instead of following this really tight script of saying very little and only doing a few signature moves and underestimating the audience's ability to deal with a real person, instead of this kind of

cardboard cutout of a superstar. So I don't know, I mean, there's a long winding road back to the original question, I guess, but with Roman and Reins, he's I think he's a good guy to be pushing. And the fact that we're pointing out that he's not catching fire right now and the crowds aren't going completely crazy for him like they have they did see him Punk a couple of years ago and Daniel Bryant one year ago. That

doesn't mean he's a failure. It just means right now in the process, Jason, he's not where WWE ideally would want him to be.

their mindset too. Is taking the slower approach now doesn't doesn't mean there's not deficiencies in his game, but they're they're they're booking approach to this might be okay, let him get that first win over Randy Orton, And you know, and I have no idea what's coming next for him, which is a big question mark because they're so light on meaningful heels that other than brock Lesner, it's gonna that's gonna be kind of the tricky part for him way is finding those opponents so that he can just

keep taking that step forward. Randy Orton felt, I mean, they were able to rebuild Randy enough that it felt like something, But who's what do you do next?

really not. But we're just dropping clues that you're much more acutely aware of than the average viewer, that we're positioning him to be a top guy. But trust us, we're dropping these hints and you're making way too much out of it. But we plan to peek him at the right time, and that's going to be in the six weeks leading up to the Rumble, and until then we need to kind of hold back a little bit and give him a few spots, but not have him

be cutting these long promos before it's time. So we're planning the seeds in the summer here, late summer that he's going to be a top guy, crosses paths with Seen A, teams up with Scena, Main Events Raw and you know, kind of is being protected in a way, but it's part of a long term plan that they believe will work. There might be a cadence in the game plan and they might not be worried at all. I'm a little worried Jason, because I think with a type of push that they have given him, the crowd

reaction should be stronger right now. I think that the tour in Australia, we got correspondent reports saying the pop he's getting right now is nothing like what Seampunk got two years ago, nothing like what Daniel Brian got a year ago, and that makes me worried. But Rains has a great look, great charisma, He's a really good athlete, and apparently there's more behind that than deer that he hasn't shown yet that people who are around him when the red light of the camera isn't on have seen.

And that gives me more confidence too. But I talked about the Keller hotline last night for VIP members. He needs there's specific things that I talked about and he needs to do to connect with the crowd more. And there's those things can come in time. I just would be getting to them a little sooner. Not well, shit, yep, very good.

pewtorch dot com. That also applies to WWE payperviews. I cover those live at pw torch dot com with a detailed written report with star ratings, and of course you can find other TV reports from other contributors to pw Torch such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling, and more. Check it out pw torch dot com, your first stop for TV and pay per views written reports.

review the tape, but I probably did. Yeah, I just I remember you saying something like that, and now he's playing me for saying it. It's just like I told him go read the back issues. He did, but I put him on hold because I do that for almost all the colors because when I don't, I pay the price there's all kinds of babies crying like earlier in the show, and then he gets and then he's just kind of he just seems kind of nasty in his disposition, and it's just not the tone of the show that we have.

him on hold while you and I talked. But yes, I mean, and I've just I've lost sight of and this is why I wanted to bring him back on of what the original premise was when he initially called us, because it's like I think he's and again I want to put words of his mouse, but it seems like he's angry that we don't now sick what is it six years later now talk about the fact that the

official story is different than what really happened. And that's fine, but that's probably something you know, when I'm glad he went he's reading an old issue with the Torch, I you know, I mean, I guess I'm glad about that. I asked him to do that. I guess maybe the best thing to do if if he does listen back to the show is without the the emotions that come up when he calls the show. Send an email and

and to PW Torch Livecasts at gmail dot com. Just put in the subject line questions about benwas situation and link to what I said and ask me for my response, you know, and lay out what what what it is that I want to know what he wants from us in this situation, because, as I told him when he called, initially, nobody covered the Benla story in more depth than we did on that than we did on Torch VIP that predated the live cast, but and in the Torch newsletter

and and it was. I mean, that was all I did for a couple of months. It's sent at my computer eighteen hours a day, practically talking to media members and people involved in law enforcement. And we went through that whole process of yeah, like you said, Jason, this is suspicious. How did somebody apparently know this on Wikipedia?

Why did it get scrubbed? And we dealt with all of that, but there were some questions that were left unanswered, and there were some questions that they didn't all not everything ended up as clean and crisp as we'd like in the end, but the fact that there was something on the Wikipedia page that got scrubbed turned out to, like I think you said, better than I am here in this orelonguitd way, not seeming particularly relevant by the end,

because there was all this other overwhelming evidence that made that seem like either a coincidence or somebody who got some information and made some guesses about what might be going on and then realized, oh crap, I'm right, and then they scrubbed it because it went from a prank to kind of scary and it's something that could get them in trouble. And I just in the end, I haven't ruled it out one hundred percent that there could be some real, big twists in the story that we

just glossed over and didn't give enough time. But in the end I felt pretty satisfied from talking to a lot of people you know, involved in the story with a stake in finding out the truth in wrestling and out of it. In the end, I felt pretty comfortable with the notion that two volatile personalities got into a domestic situation the stronger of the two snapped and went

too far in dangerous unique hoefully never revisited. Cocktail of a lot of things that were that were mentally wrong with Chris Benwall at that point in his life, and a predisposition that not every human being has to have those things affect him in that way, and it led to a despondent situation on his part that led to his rationalizing in his at that point probably clinically insane way of thinking that killing his son was the humane thing to do, as opposed to having him grow up

with a father spending his life in jail for murdering his mother with you know, whether he had special any special leads or not is kind of irrelevant to discussion although that certainly was in the media at some point, so I just felt satisfied with that. I didn't feel that the fact that somebody might have suspected something was up first before it became fully official, and put something on a Wikipedia page that later got scrubbed, was it.

I explored those things and talked to people about him, but it just never led anywhere, and so I didn't spend a lot time since then thinking about it. I mean, does that seem to match with your recollection, Jason?

us about a situation. And I just think from the position that I was in speaking for me, and how much time in my life I spent that year, that summer invested in covering this story with no dog in the fight. And I mean, I've the I mean it just I didn't have any reason to side one way or the other. I just wanted to find out the truth.

And and so to come at me like because he had done some internet investigation that he was now providing this information to us that we had never heard of and we should just agree with him on when he hadn't even read my coverage. Just I'm the wrong person to call. If you haven't read my coverage of one of the biggest stories, probably the biggest story I've ever covered, and you haven't read my coverage or listen to my audio shows that are all on the VIP website, then

then go talk to somebody else about it. You know, I did my I did my work on this, and it's out there, and before we have a conversation about it, you got to catch yourself up on on that.

quite so long, You're right, And I'm worried. He's been mad at us every single day, even when he doesn't call the show, you know, like he's really worked up

about it, because I'm not. I don't want him to be upset at us, and I don't want him to be all that angry or feel like he's been disrespected, and I think he does, But I just encourage him to send me an email where we don't have tone and voice and interruptions, and I'll have that send me an email, point to a link, and type up what he wants from us as far as the story goes.

And if he sends me an email and presents that, he'll probak call the show and I'll put him on and forget what his phone number is and maybe we'll have another back and forth. But if he's listening, I encourage him send me an email PW Torch live cast at Gmail, ask me what his question is, tell me what he wants from us, and point me to some links, and I will refresh my memory and read his links.

And I'm telling you, I'm saying, if he's listening, I will do some research on the points that he's making and come ata and come back with my opinion on whatever he presents to me. It's not going to happen. In a productive way on the live cast. When he's talking about things that I said when I don't know the context of the things that I said, and then he's quoting me when he's really quoting you, that's not going to be really productive. So anyway wanted to establish that or just call in and.

I'm not saying I don't want to ever revisit it or learn something new or find out maybe that there was something we overlooked and now with some distance in time, there's either a new piece of information or an overlooked piece of information. I'm I'm I am all for that. It's not gonna happen productively when I'm doing a show that's predominantly talking about current events and wrestling. That's what

this show generally is. We talk about the network and Raw and Roman reigns and wrestle, any speculation and Summer Slim and John Cena and TNA and even at the very end of the BFP after show traditionally we talk about the Global Force wrestling. Yeah baby, But if you want to talk history, then give us a chance to do a little bit of research and refresh our memories and spend the time that maybe the time he puts in deserts, and give us a heads up. Here's an email.

Here's what I want you to look at. I'm gonna call. I want to talk about this, but here's a chance for you to look over the materials. And I'm just saying, despite the tone he takes and the consternation that I think he feels dealing with us, and I don't know why torches himself with it, but email us first and give us a chance and we'll take a look at the material and then and then he can come on the show and we can talk about it all right. The sale right now pw torch dot com, slash go vip.

You can go back and read and listen to. By the way, it's not just reading the back issues of the prosing Torch newsletter that covered the Chris benwas situation, and we're putting out double issues almost every week for a stretch there, with tons and tons and tons of coverage, documenting for history, a lot of things that just went poof, you know, away on you know, the interview on CNN or one of the other news channels. You know, it's airs,

and then it's gone and it's not there anymore. It's it's not something that even somebody bothered to put on YouTube and the newspaper articles and the press conferences, and I'm first hand reporting that I did in terms of working the phone lines and talking to different people involved in interviews. Kevin Nash, I did a torch talk with talking about the situation and others. That's all in the

back issues of the Torture Newsletter. And just as fascinating, let's go back to the Wake Keller hotline at that point and the Bruce mitchelladio show and listen to our in depth analysis in real time of that Chris ben wa situation from that the night it happened, and we talked about it every single day for weeks and weeks. I don't remember how much time went by. I was waiting for the day that would come where I went

a full day not talking about it on audio. I mean it was, it was, And so all the coverage that we did is documented in those back issues and in those audio shows. If it's story you're interested in, that's one of the reasons you know, the go VIP is that the Benoa story, the death of Owen Hart, the Montreal screw Job with Brett Hart, the Monday Night Wore, the jump of Haul and nash On, and on and on,

the biggest stories in wrestling history. If you're a student of the game and you want to immerse yourself in them, whether it's good news or bad news, grim and awful like Owen or like ben Wa, or just exciting but controversy seal like the Monday Night War. That stuff is all there as part of the VIP membership, and we

got the three thirty three sale going on. When you become a member, you instantly gain access to virtually our entire library at back issues going back twenty five plus years to the late eighties, including all the red.

and until next time. Wait Keller signing off. All Right, we're now in the VI I P After show portion of program and Jason Paul is still with me here. We've got some email questions to answer and some other topics to cover, including uh uh TNA. In fact, Jason, let's let's start with TNA for a second. The announcement that they're moving to Wednesdays and that they were renewed through the end of the year with Spike TV, is is there's still more questions than answers. Obviously, it just

delayed the answers. So we know Wednesday that they will that they're gonna be on Wednesdays now through the end of the year, barring a cancelation before that. We know the first Wednesday rating it was awful, but not unexpected. I sense from your tone talking about it on your audio that you're kind of like me, thinking, hey, everybody calmed down.

was just unreal. This would be a fitting end to TNA on Spike TV.

Discovery Network came up, and I believe the observers reporting its velocity as the actual network, and that would make sense that I believe that's part of Discoveries group. You know, they're there group of channels. So I just heard Discovery but Velocity, I guess would which would be kind of a low end network. Something that I have that I didn't know I had held the name came out there. One of those that's scary just because of how how

small the network is. Last week I was hearing from someone, and I want to stress again rumor that WGN, presumably WG in America was also had some interest in TNA. I you know, I mean, this happens though this is both may be valid, one of them might not be. Both of them might not be. There might be nothing to it. It's just this is what when when there's a desperation kicking in, as I really believe there is,

there's going to be a lot of rumors. I mean these you know yet people depending on jobs, and so one guy hears something from somebody that may not even have any validity to it. Well, he's going to call a friend. He's gonna call a friend, and everybody gets their hopes up and you know, hopefully they have something.

But I tell you, if it's a move to Velocity, I mean instead of if they were to not be able to strike a deal with Spike and that was the best out there, might keep the lights on but long term, I don't see that being a viable option less. It's just that Velocity, for whatever reason, has a lot of money to throw around.

faith in. It's a sign that they're still negotiating and there's still a strong chance. But I can't rule it out either.

get the word out to people about these shows? And I mean you can do it, and it really slashed the budget and everything and just go really low end with things. I know they signed the overseas television deals, but I just wait, I just kind of look at those as if the company goes under, then they go under. And I mean, what when I hear multi year agreement, it doesn't make me think automatically, hey, t Anda is

going to be around for all those years. It's just I would assume that if there's they wouldn't be the first company providing programming to go under, and then the network is just kind of left without with some programming slot to fill.

one way of looking at it. The other, I mean, it's just that, well, TNA and Spike have had a you know, decent relationship over the years, and Spike TV might be doing them as solid. It's not like they have a lot of programming they put on there.

like we're to match that. Well, they actually lose money because they owe you know, ten to fifteen percent of that to UTA.

got to make this work. We've got to find a home for TENNA. They have to survive it. They just don't have that kind of passion for their product. I think they have a soft fan base, and that worries me when it comes to the night, the change in which day of the week they're on. I think almost everybody will come back to Wednesdays. But I do think there's some people who are just look at TNA the way that I look at you know, some reality TV show or sitcom. If I bump into it. I'll watch it,

you know, I remember liking this show. I'll watch it. I've got time here after dinner and to watch. But I don't know how many of those people who missed out last Thursday are gonna be like, oh, oh no, I missed impact. How do I find it and reset my DVR and go back to watching it live every week?

I worry for TNA that those people won't come back because I just don't sense that of the one point some you know, the one plus million people who watch on the peak weeks, that they're super passionate and they're just going to follow TNA to any network.

It just there's this there, there's a select few out there that, in TNA's case, everything they do is the greatest. Everything that everyone else does it pales by comparison to TNA. They make a creative change and suddenly the person that they were defending is the worst thing ever and this new guy's the best. And I mean, to me, it's just like I just zone those people out. I mean, they don't map, they're they're just there's they're fanboys. I mean,

that's they've chosen. They've decided that TNA's is. I mean, they're like the worst delusional Homer football fan out there, you know. I Mean, it's just they've decided that their team is the greatest, even if they're one and fifteen and everyone else sucks, and they don't deal in reality. When you confront like in with a football fan, you can point to but your team went one in fifteen. In TNA's case, you can point to a number of

things too, but they don't want to hear it. It's just whatever whatever logic you give them, they're just going to ignore.

in my opinion. Thanks for your hard work, guys, Ambrose for usum A thirty two, that's a whole other issue. What do you think Jason JBL against Don't Cold?

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is there? I think we sort of touched on it, but is there a chance Dean Ambrose is the guy who they decide to win the Rumble and face brock as this You know, can you imagine Dean Ambrose selling tickets from media thirty two and you know, you go into his personality and his and his voice and you just don't overscript him and let him sell the match and sell him as the crazy guy who's just crazy enough to to take out to take out brock Lesnar when nobody else could if.

every step of the way. It seems so with Ambrose, I think they probably have him pegged as being the cool guy for now. Long term, they've probably seen him as a guy who turns on Roman Reigns and I've said for a while, not a bad spot to be, you know, this era's Roddy Piper to you know, to Roman rains Hogan. I guess, I mean it's it's not the perfect comparison, but if that can you know, between him and Rawlins that I think could be a good

spot for Ambrose. It's not going to be base of the company, top guy that people want unless something really clicked. You don't hear the negative grumbling from people about Ambrose that you do that we did Daniel Bryan. But we're also not at that point where it's just like people are really against the idea and really you know, just demanding that Dean Ambrose become the guy in WWE We're hearing it from a certain portion of the fan base.

But like you said earlier, I really think it's kind of the the hardcore fan doesn't mean the casual fans aren't into Ambrose, but I don't know that there's this demand for him like there was Daniel Bryant.

zony and like this is a big deal. I don't know, it's just all those emotions as an eight year old hearing it for the first time.

mockumentary about doing a fake wrestling company. And again, there'll be a lot of people out to strangle him, you know, because he you know, he'd be creating these alliances with all these wrestling companies worldwide with no intention of actually running.

But like, there's nothing inconsistent with him doing a mockumentary about a globe trotting wrestling promoter with no money and no chance in hell of doing anything, just creating a buzz through creating paper alliances with a bunch of companies nobody's ever heard of internationally.

I think they had differentiating themselves more than Bruce gave them credit for on Monday. But I think they really differentiate in themselves now where you don't think of them as identical twins. They have two distinct personalities, and I like the idea that they went down that road of Brie. You're seen as a sweet one and I'm the manipulative, gold digging, you know one, and yet the truth is

is your phony and I get a bad rap. And I just think that's good because I think Keels should, in their mind feel like they're right, and it's the fans resent them for the fact that they aren't seeing things clearly, They're not seeing reality for what it is, and they handle their own truth really poorly, and that's what's happening with NICKI. She has her own version of the truth, and I think people are going to be skeptical that it is actually real, well, that it's actually

They're gonna think she's disconnected from reality. But even more so, they're going to think, even if what you're saying is true, the things you've done and said don't aren't justified by what you think that reality is. So I like the construction of it, and I thought, wow, they've actually, you know, that segment did a pretty good job with it. It's just yeah, I mean, Bria's awful. I mean, I don't

even know that. I don't think when people are putting in a position to act, to act when they can act, I don't even think they come across as particularly likable at that point. I think people start just thinking you're trying to pretend to be something or feeling something you're not feeling. And I actually think people resent phoniness, and I think Brice started to come across as actually kind of phony in a way that could backfire.

go long term with usso's whatever. But now they just lose all the time, and bray Wyatt, I mean, Chris Eric goes back seemingly to elevate bray Wyatt all of a sudden. I don't even know if the match is happening at this point, the third match at night of Champions, and maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But in the middle of this they trade wins and it looks like, Okay, they're finally gonna start building up bray Wyatt. He's the guy who takes the ass kicking from Scena.

think was worth it. But even so, even more so, if you're gonna sacrifice bray Wyatt, then make a really big deal out of the match, and make a really big deal out of the outcome, because if you're like I don't like the idea of well, Bray's gonna do the job because we need a main event, so we're gonna have Bray do the job, and we need to get over the fact that scene as a maniac. Now who's all determined, So you know, Brad's the only guy who can draw rating. We can rebuild him up later

because he's so good on the mic. If that's all your rational if you're rationalizing all of that, don't then be meek in how you promote it. Promote the hell out of it, get a rating. If you're going to have Braid do a job, get everything there is to get out of Braid doing the job, and so have more, have the announcers act more excited about being able to see that match, and have the uh the outcome be a much bigger deal, like we've never seen brailews like this.

This is a new This is a new John Scena and really get something out of it, make people remember it, so that then people are wondering, how's Bray going to respond to this? And if you can't do that, and you're just going to kind of try to slip the match in the finish in I don't think it's worth doing in the first place. So I think you get a lot less of the positive, but you still have all the negative.

I mean, I hate to think that that was the fond Dongo like Shiny Toys and Jazz. I mean, because they're just missing out here. I really worry they're doing long term damage. Right.

And you know, the Vinsic man of the late nineties mid nineties would roll his eyes at the Vincic man of today. The destuct Mata today would say, the world has changed and I've learned a lot since then. But just giving away these main event matchups over and over it means you water down the novelty of seeing main event matchups. And then you're also put in a tough situation where do you do all non finishes or do

you just do finishes and own them? And they did that finish, but I don't think they fully owned it. They did a decisive finish and then they just forgot about it, went to a six man and forgot about that, you know. So I don't know I mean, I think Bray is good enough that he'll be fine, but I don't know that he'll be what he could have been in the short run and maybe the mid term, because I do think it's a setback the way that they're booking him.

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