Vanessa Williams PT2

Welcome back to Viva Betty. How have you been fine? I mean, I'm really excited about today.

Are you excited?

I'm excited about Vanessa icon mother f ing Williams that we somehow managed to get all the week from one day down. We did promise you last week that you were going to have an extended interview. You're getting it. You're getting it right now.

We're talking wigs. Oh god, we're talking drama. The devil words, Brana, I don't even want to know.

Are you ready?

I don't know, roll the click.

Get into it.

Did you have any sort of vibe on Wilhelmine and what it would mean to be sort of so as a black woman, like playing the lead of not only of a of a network show, but also as sort of like this iconic and she wasn't at the point, I mean, you made her such, but like just to be this editor of this big fashion magazine. Was there any sort of like what did you feel when you were like, oh, I know this character or do did you know this character?

Well? Well, Sylvia who was our creator, that's right, he saw me, he loved me. And at Diva's Christmas Carol where I play you know, iconic. Yeah, and uh so, uh you know, she's throwing fits and he knew that I could do the diva part of it. So that's why I get her. I want her. She'll nail it. And again, this is a pilot, that's right, pilot nobody had like it was not there was no prototype or what it wasn't so it wasn't you know er it was just a whole new genre.

That it didn't seem like anyone particular liked it or wanted it.

Yeah, it kind of gave us the freedom might this is fun, Wow, this would be cool. But you know, and then we picked up that May I was like, okay, let's get it on too. It was always like, what's the next step. Let's see if we can get it on. It's a Friday night, let me we can get it on, you know. And then when we were at the TCA's that the Television Critics Association, and we had to do that panel that's right and doing interviews and all the writers are like, this is the best thing that ABC has.

But not not not not.

Yeah, and in front of bras anatomy. I mean we you know, we blew up because they valued what we created in the in the.

Pilot, when Uglybody hit your desk, were you sort of like I'm gonna I want to do this it like I'm going to do this and I'm.

To bring what about her?

Like like Willelmina, Like how did you sort of approach it?

Honestly, I never know what I am going to do. You know, that's the first day on set. You don't know what I mean. You think like I'll try to do my best, but you're kind of figuring out. I've got an approach and let's see whether it works. So I it wasn't a calculated thing.

I mean I think amazing.

I was in dead.

I think with your first scene with Hot by the way, so you.

Boobs hairs I'll toss on themselves, was like, okay, this is a funday work.

When Terry told us, when Terry told us that that was your first scene, I was completely because I have no idea. America's first scene was the photo shoot where she's in the late latex, and your first scene was You're in bed with Frind she by the way so fucking hot, I mean, the two together, excuse.

Me, by the way, and I you know, the annoying bit about this too is that all of you guys look exactly the same and I'm the only one that looks different. So the reboot's gonna look great? Am I getting recasted? We can go back to twenty ten according to the ways in which you all look. But oh oh oh oh, we also do you know, we're obviously talking about fashion.

We get the fashion. So Season one is a little weird for all of us.

Sure it was. It was an adjustment. But I want to just talk about the pilot because one of my favorite looks that has ever been on, like as far as I've seen or that I can remember, is your Versace suit the first time that we meet her. Do you remember the white, the white with the with like the gold kind of bell necklace like that versus I think it was vers I.

Think it was, and it's fat Field.

It was, yeah, in the pilot, in the pilot, and I was just so, I mean, I was taken by it for a myriad of reasons, but also because it was gay. You're probably because of gay, you're gay. Probably the gay stuff write that part. We didn't figure that out yet. We're not there yet. The season three.

We had all figured it out.

But I feel like it was because and I met like no, because I I think that that for some reason there was an overlap or something, or maybe she wore in the like in one of the photos or something. I just remember seeing you in it in person and being like, that's a really beautiful woman.

Lynn had to tell you when you walked into the table, Lynn was like, that's festival like like and I was like, who was gagged? Lynn was absolutely gagged meeting you for the first time.

You remember Almo and Grouchland's Queen of Trash. Nowadays, all these kids like aren't you in Hannah Montana. I'm like, oh my god, it's amazing where people like all from.

Yeah, but are you getting any sort of Are you getting any sort of you know, ugly betty love now? Because they were, yeah, like, has that is that a thing that like is recurring for you?

It's so worldwide and I get a chance at the stage or every night to like, you know, we love to where are you from? Like Asia, Taiwan, Singapore, China, Japan, Korea. Uh always uh, like Poland forgetuation to Magro rantsom Flora Spain. I mean, it's Brazil, all Australia. It's been incredible the reach that we we have in our and now that it's on Netflix, forget it.

Yes, yes, and and that, and that was kind of the impetus for the reason why we even started doing this and like this rewatch is because of the Netflix kind of thing, like where it was just like, oh wow, you guys, you guys like this this TV show from

Before it was like you know, like deragor like now now everybody like we sort of like broke lot of and I should say you broke a lot of.

I mean, we as a family did.

On terms in the terms of like sort of the immigration conversation, the healthcare healthcare conversation, what it what it was to be sort of.

A young brown woman in the workplace. But you were sort of like a.

Black woman in position of power and sort of you really your character spoke to sort of all of that, because you had to sort of battle Bradford, and you had to battle sort of nepotism and you know, the rightful place of sort of your the woman that you were being constantly sort of.

Passed over because and sit alone as a woman of color in that space.

And so it was still such a plause.

And bossed it up. And so I don't know, I guess I suppose the question is did that mean anything to you at the time or looking back at it, does it? What does it mean to you now?

Well, I luckily had examples to to model myself as Susan Taylor, who ran Essence magazine for years, was a great great uh you know, shero she had ran it for years. She was smart and creative and she was the epitome of black female excellence as an editor. So that was kind of and also Andre Leon Talley, oh yeah, style and uh and just knowledge. There were examples. So it wasn't like ever been seen before.

I hadn't been seen on like network TV though, right, Like that's the context in which we're we're asking too, Like It's like, it's not that they didn't exist, it was just for for people that had never seen.

Talking to Diane Carroll who was Plade Julia back in the sixties and black nursers.

Had Dominique on Dynasty, pardon me exactly.

But in the sixties she single handedly integrated the union because she was like, I'm a black woman, I need my hairdresser to do my hair, and that say insisting and getting her way. She made sure that she got her black hairdresser on set to do her and she integrated the union in just one, you know, one decision, so that power move. Seeing those women just change the game constantly, it was easy for me to kind of make it a reality. It wasn't you know, it wasn't our.

Fat Speaking of which, so we've had a lot of hair conversations.

Have you watched season one?

Have you like? Have you have you watched Uglyboddy like season one recently or in any.

Not recently recently, but yeah, I've watched it, and I mean there's some things out I don't even remember me like when we do that what.

Was hilarious to me too. And we talked about this with Terry all the time. Is when we.

First started out, they gave us like because to your point, like they just thought like, oh, it's a brown girl as a lead, Like this is.

Not going anywhere.

And we had like four dollars to make you know, we made a dollar out of fifteen cents.

And I had.

Literally like plastic like hair ponytails, like stuck on the side of my head. Like I looked completely insane, and you know, but then as the.

Show goes on, it gets a lot better.

But like my and Betty's wig was a complete insane nightmare, and you know, like and.

You know, all of us looked so great, like we looked amazing.

But it was so crazy to sort of like see that evolution of like when they hate when they hated us and didn't care about us until then we got nominated and all of a sudden, we all looked everyone.

Look I was like breakfast. We didn't we didn't get catered breakfast, and so we got the nominations.

I mean, it's just like but but but I I suppose that what I'm saying is watching it for the first time, I'm like, what's going on with everyone's hair?

Well, that was another thing. So I don't remember our Friday Nights. Friday Nights and the hair makeup trail. Yes, girls, like someone's getting someone's walking off the plane and he's done it.

We called it Survivor trailer because when I tell you, like we would it would be like a new fucking team literally like every month, because we were all like, we look like lunatics.

I need to talk about Michael Uri and and and Vanessulay we did, and Mark and Whilhelmina because they're I and and correct me if I'm wrong. The but you like the character of Mark was not meant to only be Yuri the entire time. And and that when as soon as it like hit and your and your chemistry kind of hit in the way that it did, which seemed automatic, which I think that the two of you have spoken about myriad times that you were like, oh no, we're this is this is what we're doing.

Yeah, how did that go down?

Exactly?

Well? In theory, Wilhelminia was supposed to hire so to fire somebody every episode, so they would they would be an assistant and they get fired and you have somebody new. So we were doing the pilot and we did the scene and like my my I'm in my leather Chay's lounge and for my botox. Yes, Michael comes in with the needle and he's like, oh my god, if is there a way that if I give you and I have some little leftover, let's do I do one of

I'm like, okay, this is this?

Yeah, And when I called out from they were calling you from, Mark, and he's like, all that stuff, all that stuff came in the pilot.

I can't even tell you how much I say to Mark on a daily I'm halaciously upset Mark.

Yes, I'm hilaious. Was I was literally about to bring that up. I feel like, you know, we we we we talked so much about We talked so much though about like those one liners and and and just kind of those buttons and and stuff and I and I think that the oh in the Halloween episode, uh, when Mark dresses up as Betty and and Wilhelmina walks in and she's like, Mark, what does she say?

She said, I've never seen to the effect of like, I've never seen anything so cruel.

Someone's getting a raised.

Me this.

I was just I was gagged because it's also just it just reminded me so much too, like watching the show too reminds me of how much fun we had making the show as someone that has never seen it like on screen before, but was there there is something that just is so like palpable about watching it, being like, oh, these these people are having a good.

Time because it was all happening in the moment. But the the the chemistry that you had with Mark, you also surprisingly had that with America. I mean there was we just watched Trust, Lust and Must Yes. Yeah, and

Oh yeah, I call her nico One Nicoll Mark I was like, who's that?

Mark is such a bitch, So so nico One, look, look we're excuse twenty years later.

We can talk about it.

We could be real when Nico went, but like, but you have like you have, you know, that's the thing is that you have. So you had that chemistry also because you bully America, but you're also really Betty I should say not America, but like you know, because you're you have, but you had that chemistry with her as well, and it was just so incredible to watch.

What what what did that feel like? On set?

I think, you know, yes, we were, we are and we're all talented, but it was almost like doing a play where you're at a stage and you're really free. That's what I love doing theater because you've got the whole stage to make it different and make it new every night, every performance weak because you're in charge of your own and there was a freedom that we had when we shot Ugly Betty. Even though we had guest directors, we still have the freedom to kind of make it

And that the energy up.

Yeah, we've all had theater background, so.

That's true, we all did.

I also forget about that. I mean most of us were sort of New York theater actors, and so what what the was I mean, this is a broad question, so you might have more than one, but like give us whatever you think of off the top of your head. What was your favorite ugly betty sort of memory. I know it's the one I want to back.

Up on most of the time is when I'm on the rooftop with the bat baseball bats, smashing the mannequins, Mick ter Nelly, our director smashing them and getting here and then then Michael's got the the gong and he's shaking shaking the thundersown like I mean, it's so camp. It's like, could not be any more camp. It's just like it's crazy.

It's and how do you know it?

Sorry?

The continue and no, no, I just I want to know how you navigate camp with with just keeping like your feet firmly planted on the ground as the character though, because I think that there are so many moments but like that are also extra really grounded in reality, like just as a performer.

Even just the episode that we watched where you're talking to Nico and Nico one and you're having the sort of there was yeah, you had so many sort of like really grounded moments, but it was still like you're still like naked under a fur coat and you know what I mean, and sort of like yeah, like you don't have grit. You need grit to get through this life.

Right, how do you how do you like, uh navigate like the real with the absurd?

I suppose, uh, well, I mean I do think it's on the page. Again, all of our writers have gone on to have their own shows and do tremendously well.

So that's right exactly.

Pers I know Terry's over there. You curated the best writers of the time, so it was all on the page and we could have fun and and and again freedom like we didn't have like the writers saying oh you said you said it wrong, do it again. That's where we had this works better for me, Can I, you know, trim this down or eliminate or can I

And they write to it.

I've always said that I think like that was something that we were so lucky to have because I think the more the writers got to know us, the more they wrote to us. And so to your point, it wasn't even really navigating between camp and reality. It was like they were really writing to our strengths. And again, to your point, we were not to toot.

Our own horn, but I'm going to do it.

We did have the capability of of having that sort of comedy and drama and all of that within the same moment. I think, you know, Becky Newton is is in this last episode that we just watched. She's such a clear indicator of that where she's sort of navigating this relationship with Daniel where he's treating her like garbage and she's trying to act like it's cool.

But then the camera pans.

To her after he sort of blows her off, and you see her dejected face, and she was just so brilliant in these ways.

We have that with with v with the with her face.

Senator, Yeah, like just seeing you just sort of, you know, trying to put this face on of being you know, the good daughter, and then he, you know, is the way he is and that sort of one look to the camera you just don't need much and that's you know, just again like a testament to these.

Yeah, And I yeah, I mean I think that that's incredible because I just think that, like it's it's hard to make someone human if you can't see a human on the page, right, like you know, like if if if someone is just this kind of bombastic camp character, it's kind of, at least for me, hard to locate like the humanity in them. And so I think that, Yeah, do you.

Think any of us do you think any of us sort of knew in the moment I mean because looking back, like I said, we just we were talking to Tony about how we were talking about immigration and you know, the HMO and all the things, and like we were talking about like sort of what we would leave in that in that time, Like what we did that was sort of like we should probably leave that there or you know, and the stuff that like you know that can can carry through and most of I think so

Kee keep fat Carrol. What do you mean? No, Fat Carrol is one of my favorites. We're keet Carol. No, just something like jokes, Yeah, like let's leave like eating disorders.

Fat Carol throwing up?

Yeah, but like keep the fact that they call her fat Carol, not that she's a blimic. But yeah.

But did you do you think that we knew? I mean I don't know, because I we talked about this all the did you did you know at the at the time we were sort of embarking on this you know, cultural moment that that is still relevant today.

Talk about Rebecca being tranced, right, Yeah, that's like almost twenty years ago, correct. You know, we introduced that character season one boom and making people like accept it.

This is what it is.

That's character, and you're going to love her and you're going to see her up your week.

When you think about.

Betty like that, that sort of time in your life, do you think it it's sort of informed you moving forward or like have we like is there is there sort of a thing where that was like a for me? Obviously it started everything Like I was bartending when I got Betty and Mark was six years old, so he was a fetus, not even you know, Mark, like all of us were just sort of, you know, like fledgling. At this point, you were still like you were have

Betty was an example of just surrendering, you know. And because again I kept pushing it away. I don't want to do it. I don't want todo any pilots. It came to me, all right, well we'll see whether it gets picked up. It gets picked up. Then they say we're moving into California. I said no. He told me that I've got four kids, four different schools in New York. He told me it's a New York show. That's why I accepted it. I'm not doing it. Push it away again. Okay,

That that's right, that's right.

Yeah. But and then but like just embraced Okay, this is this is what's meant to be. And my kids gave me the freedom, like, mom, you're great, do it. They did. And also like great memories of like Sasha moving around out there, her riding her scooter around.

That's so funny, Like as a mom, Now I didn't I I didn't even have that on my radar.

That that's what you were going through.

And to that point, I have to say, Vanessa, I don't know if you'll even remember this, but season two, I was pregnant.

I got I was pregnant.

I hadn't told anybody like I literally had told literally no person on.

The planet except Noah. He was the only person who knew.

And you and I we were at Silver Cup and this is so crazy.

We were season.

Season two.

We were telling oh, you're right, season three, season three, sorry my bad, silver Cup.

And you I was like, first out the day.

We were both groggy, like sleep in our eyes and we meet in the hallway and you look at me and you were like, oh.

I swear to God. And you were like you were.

Like, oh, how are you feeling? And I was like I feel fine. You were like, well, good, congratulations and I was like what And I was like, wait, what not a witch?

No for real, for real, I don't even know if you remember this.

And you were like congratulations, and I was like, bitch, what I even literally told a single soul And I don't know how you fucking knew, but you were like, awesome, so glad, congratulations, And I was like, bitch, I'm fucking pregnant.

I haven't even told America.

And you just looked at me and neew like for real witch vibes. And also for everybody out there. She threw me my baby shower like you were just.

America's wedding at her house, at.

Her house, like you are a magic fairy of like blessings.

But that's just family. That's family.

I swear to God.

You also told me because Baaloma my daughter when she was born, she was so like perfect and amazing, and I was freaking out and I was just really nervous, and we were working twenty two hours a day and I just had I was on set.

It was a nightmare, and I was like, I don't know. I think I'm going to ruin her.

This is not good.

And you were like, she's such a perfect baby, she's so wonderful, and who they are when they're born is who they're going to be.

And god, damn it, Vanessa, if you aren't right, that girl is so amazing.

And I think about those words all every I think about.

Those words, Vanessa so much. I cannot even tell you.

And I still to this day quote you to all the new.

Moms I know, forever and ever and ever amen, because you were one hundred percent right.

But I think that there's also this element that I think that it is a through line with all of our guests that were having on that were either actor on the show are just just players on the show. I think that you are just such an incredibly generous, just person but also like man, like we're so lucky, Like I just feel like and as someone that that, as you described, was pushing away this experience to then surrender and go all in and then be the most generous.

Well, we did have an incident right after we got our Golden Globe nomination and we had to remind one of our castmates be in America, how lucky we all were to be in a show and not to wish that away. Not naming any names, but there's one particular carectur yes, which then he was in another show and never like I don't want to be I should have been doing this and whatever the other and you.

Know, yeah, and now it's like, well are we all like amazing?

That's this is because I don't know who you're talking about because too young. But I'm gonna, but I'm gonna. When we sign off, trust I do, I do.

Vanessa Williams, I reserve the right to bring you back please on the pod for more of this, maybe for a reunion, but we love you so much.

We really look forward to.

Reuniting on the reboot of the limited series for.

We are just so just so incredibly grateful that you took the time all the way in London. It is it is really just God family, family so much.

Family is cool, cool.

Yes, ma'am.

And congratulations on your continued success. That's what we want.

That's right, we are doing. Where can we find you.

On the socials at Vanessa the Williams Official on.

Instagram official bitches.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, all the things.

All the things, And if you are lucky enough to be in London town, go and see her wreaking havoc on the stage.

I'll be doing it definitely into the next year for no, oh really plenty.

So then well I'll be in Paris and I'm going.

I'm going then to Okay. We will see you.

We'll see you there and we'll bring Ashley. We'll bring Ashley. I love you so much. Thank you, so so very much, Vanessa. You are an icon of goddess and and just everything.

Thank you, thank you you.

Yeah bye bye.

Well you guys lucky you've Vanessa Williams in the house. I mean, doesn't get more iconic or better than.

That shipper at midnight, it's.

Midnight for her and she just did she just did two fucking shows.

Yeah, I mean that that's a really that's a big get.

And by the way, she still looked. She looked better than both of us combined.

You're right, I know, and I hate and I hate and I hate that fact because I'm thirty How old am I thirty one? Yeah?

That bitch looks ridiculous and she is just what just a class.

Joy and light and everyone that we have.

How is it? How is how is it that we're that that that every single guess that we've had in this show.

Is its amazing?

How is it.

How we had not one Hollywood asshole on?

No, one Hollywood asshole?

It's weird? Well, you know, I mean I would like to bring one on. I'd like a change of pace, you know what I mean, you're the asshole I know about allest Maybe we should have a no Mark.

I think we're the Hello. I think we're the Hollywood asshole.

We're not No, no, no, no, we're not Hollywood. We're just asking No, We're just that, okay, Hollywood assholes. Okay, we don't have the power to be holloween assholes. We're just assholes.

Okay, Love you guys. Ask any questions you want, Send us all the emails.

Yeah, send us the emails at at Viva Betty podcast on Instagram or email. Viva Betty pondage emails on what you got, We love you, We'll.

See a piece bite.

Viva Betty is a production of Propagate Content in partnership with Iheart's and Mike podcast Network.

We're your hosts on Ortiz and Mark and Deelo Pato.

Our executive producers are Terry one Enberg, Lin Lee and Diego Tapia.

Our senior producer is Emily Carr, and the show is directed and edited by Mark Aagom.

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