#39: The Creative Act

You need to say one Craig. Okay, okay, okay, okay, can't count us down. Okay, I'm gonna leave this in. You added the then we live. I thought you were gonna end on one. Okay, end on, end on, end on, go. Best introduction ever. I'll just wait, wait, wait, wait. All right, everyone, welcome to the Vinh and Ali Show. Hey, Ali, how about you kick off this podcast and do an introduction? This become a thing that we just like after 40 episodes or whatever it is that we just change.

We have to change things up. I blatantly refuse to do that. It's so important to change things up because that sparks new ingredients that leads to new places that leads to new flavors. This introduction bit, this is where we're actually figuring out what we're gonna say. I'm not prepared. Go in three, two, Davas and Ali. Are we doing another countdown again? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Davas into this. Let's talk about this book. Today we are doing the Creative Act by Rick Rubin.

Now, this book usually start off with a little bit of a recipe analogy of what this book tastes like. Oh, that's all we did at the beginning of our podcast journey. We haven't done that in forever. No, not in forever. I'm gonna go with the old school way that we did it. And to me, this feels like a chef's menu, a tasting platter, like 25, 30, 40 dishes, of just creative prompts and insights. So lots of different flavors. Lots of different flavors.

And the thing that I really liked about this book, so just to start with, this is probably the first book, I think, in the last three years, where when I started reading it, the level of excitement, I remember walking, I was listening to it, and usually I'd listen to books at about two times at speed. Most of the time, I'm like, hey, brother, I think I found a book that deserves 1.2 times at speed, which is really rare. And there was a look, it was just sharing quite straightaway.

And I don't know, this book just really hit hard both on, maybe it's like creative level, spiritual level, artistic level. Yeah, I'm just really excited to dig into this one. Well, I remember the moment you texted me, I immediately downloaded it, and then I also put it on 1.25 times speed. And I was like, wow, this is a big statement. This is probably the ultimate testimonial you've ever given. What respect? Yeah, and then I immediately started listening to it.

And I reckon within the first five minutes of listening to the book, I shot you a series of texts going, holy crap, I think this is the best book ever. And I finished the book within three days. And I've read it since twice. And I think, I mean, we have to give people context too. Then we weren't going to do a podcast this soon. But then you texted me and we were like, no, we need to fly down. We need to do this next week.

We need to do it while the enthusiasm's high while the chemistry is there and the excitement is there. And that's why we're here. This is kind of an impromptu podcast that wasn't meant to happen this soon. Okay, so back to the flavors. To me, the way I would describe it is, this is a dish. Did you just shoot? No, I thought you'd shoot it like you do when you pee. I thought it was really weird. It was breathing. No, you just, you just did it. I was just staying alive. It was a breathing.

But it's a dish where the chef has served it. I tasted it and it felt like all new flavors yet it tastes familiar. Which is a weird one. It's like, wow, I've never hang on. It feels and tastes familiar, but at the same time, the familiar is new. It's very strange. Very strange. So he hit me in all different ways, man. I got the vibes of when I read Navale's book, the Almanac of Navale, same vibes. It's a book that I know already. I'm going to be rereading many times.

So for those of you who don't know who Rick Rubin is, he's actually a really legendary music producer. And I didn't know that. So it was really cool because when you look at Rick Rubin, you go, whoa, who is this guy? He's got a really interesting look about him yet. Oh, profound lessons that I think will change your life if you actually read this book to our listeners. How do we even navigate this book?

Because I feel like, honestly, when I thought about how we're going to do this podcast, I just felt like I'm going to basically just read the book to you. Because I couldn't pick. It was so hard. It feels like this is one where it's finding different passages. I can't enjoy it. And then we just like, my plan was I was going to do the same thing. I was going to read stuff out to you and then just be like, what did you do? What did you think? Yeah. Yeah. All right.

Hey, just a quick shout out to Craig who's in the studio with us as well. He is here switching the angles, switching it up. So thanks, Craig. Yeah. It's going to cool having someone live here that we don't care about. Yeah. It's great. It just adds to the energy. You know, it's like someone else here, but we don't really care about it. I care about Craig. Oh, I don't. I really like Craig. I actually really don't like him. Don't listen to him. No, you should listen to me. Okay. I don't like you.

The other thing is, oh, with this book is, you know, when we talk about dishes, I feel like this book goes really nicely with books like the Alchemist and half now. It's got this beautiful sort of artistic underlabel. And then it's also got a little bit of a spirituality and like a dreaming and I don't know. It does. It operates on a different scale. It's on a different plane. It's on a different plane. It's almost like this book allows you to tap into a different dimension. Yeah. It does.

It talks about our existing dimension that we live on, but then it taps into the other dimension and how that dimension has an impact on this dimension. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, let's begin the way you said we should begin and begin with a passage. You want to start? All right. I'll start with the one that I sent you. Look at you. Right. Starting the podcast, starting the first point. This is going to change, man. This is going to be the most hated episode. This is what hated the bit.

Just go, you know, you should go back to you starting. Yeah, that was. Don't change up a Winnie 4 over. Yeah. This is our goal. And we did it on the best book ever. That's all right. If this is how we end, this is how we end. Yeah, okay. Awesome. The passage. The art of creation is an attempt to enter a mysterious realm. What we create allows us to share glimpses of an inner landscape, one that is beyond our understanding.

And then the note that I had there was pay attention to the moments that take your breath away. All right. What's that mean to you? Read it to me one more time. The act of creation is an attempt to enter a mysterious realm. What we create allows us to share glimpses of an inner landscape, one that is beyond our understanding. Pay attention to the moments that take your breath away. That's a really there's there's multiple things that come to me there.

The first one that I think about is creation occurs in a mysterious realm. That just makes me think, where do the thoughts come from when you are creating? When you get the instant spark of inspiration to go, oh, I'm going to create this. And it could be anything regardless of what you do. I believe there's a component of artistry and creativity in every single profession out there that exists. It's like, why did my plumber do the thing he did in a certain way to make it look good?

There's a form of art there, regardless of what you do. What is that? What is that mysterious realm? That is so interesting to even jam on for a moment. And then I think there are people who they're in their careers where they never enter that mysterious realm for creation. And then I think that's where the midlife crisis lives. That's where they're, oh no, everything is mundane, it's monotonous. It's because you're not tapping into that mysterious realm. What is that mysterious realm?

Yeah. And those are thinking, my note there was around really being aware of that. And I think we all feel it in glimpses. Right? When it's not the mysterious realm? Yeah, that mysterious realm or that urge to create. And it might just be related to the childlike nature that we all have that lives within us. To me, I'll go back to playing as a kid, whether it's playing with Lego or drawing with crayons or whatever it is.

And you see there is someone structured, but then every now and again, you just had this urge to do something, to build something, to pursue something. What is that channel that enters us, that draws us towards that where we just kind of create or do something nearly on an unconscious level? Well, building on what you just said, let's try to make this mysterious, less mysterious, and try to maybe we can't.

But I think from what you just said, my version of that is when that feeling hits, I can't not serve it. It's like it becomes the master and I become the slave. I can't not do it. But I think for some people, if you lose touch with that feeling for a long time, then it's impact on you becomes weaker. It's influence on you becomes weaker and weaker and weaker. It no longer draws you to create as with such intensity.

Because when that creativity hits, when my team and I sit down in the studio, we did this for the first time last month. Oh, this month, sorry, we're creating content. And we tapped into that mysterious zone where when the idea is hit, it comes out with such enthusiasm. And that enthusiasm infects every person in the room. And now we can't not create this thing that we just came up with. We can't not create. It has to be created now.

Even talking about it, it's like I feel the vibes of it, right? So that's like what the hell is that? I think that's allowing your mind to play. What else do you think it is? So question for you because you're one of the more creative people that I know. Say for example, you get that bolt of inspiration. What then happens? Are you then just consumed by that? Like were you going on and on?

But then say for example, if you've got a commitment or you're living your day to day life, how do you then prioritize if that inspiration or that mysterious realm feeling comes in? I still think that I haven't learned how to harness it well because there are times when it hits me at 7 a.m. But then I need to prepare Zander and get him ready for school. So I'll tap out of that. So I think of it like this. There's a stream of creativity.

And the times that it works best is when I dedicate time for it. And then I have my team there and then I invite all of us to jump into this stream. I'll jump in there first. And then once I'm in the stream, the stream gives me ideas that again, I genuinely don't know where these ideas or thoughts come from. And then once I have them, I communicate it to my team. And when I communicate it to my team, that then sparks ideas from them. They jump into the stream. And now we're all in the stream.

And then as we share ideas with each other, the echo of the ideas that come from me, the ripples impact them. Then they sometimes say something and they create ripples. And then it impacts my other team member. Then they say, so then there's this oscillation of ripples that occurs. And it creates something that only the three of us could have created. And then as we create those vibrations or ripples, whatever you want to call it, let's call it vibrations that people consistent.

But the vibrations become so intense that we have to create it now. And then do you find that you can nearly get the conditions for creativity pretty quickly? Because I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with. Well, it has to happen with the right people. I don't think I can really do it alone. I think for me it requires the presence of others. And that's why again, while saying this, I also recognize for everybody that will be different.

To be able to tap into that mysterious zone of creation, some people need to do it alone. And like Rick Rubin talks about this. For some people it's doing it alone in the middle of the night. For some people it's doing with a team in the middle of the day. You kind of have to find out what your secret source is for you to be able to tap into that mysterious realm. It's kind of interesting, isn't it? Because that mysterious realm. There's a different way to access it for different people.

And I think it would be a massive shame if you never learn how to tap into it. Because it means you never then end up creating art that's going to be able to be consumed by others. So the journey of exploring how to tap into that mysterious realm, I think is really important. The concept that also comes to mind for me is the flow state concept. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very quoted a lot. Yeah, the hale 6th cent. The hale I think it is.

When we get into that flow state, it might be the actual framework that connects us into this, you know, quotations, mysterious realm of creativity. Well, I think when you're in the mysterious realm, you are in a flow state. Yeah. I've experienced it last week where my team and I were just in that zone where time was just fleeting bleeds away. It was unbelievable. Yeah, it's unbelievable. Then it follows me up to another thing. Are we all artists? Or do we have degrees of artistry in us?

And like is creativity a very core part of our existence? I think we are all artists. And I, there's a passage from the book that I have here where Rick says, to live as an artist is a way of being in the world, a way of perceiving, a practice of paying attention, refining our sensitivity to tune into the more subtle notes, looking for what draws us in and what pushes us away, noticing what feelings, tones arise and where they lead.

So, I mean, I think in him saying that we are all being who we are in the world. And no matter what it is that you do, I think there is a form of art to it. Even if you're a pharmacist labeling the boxes of medication, there's art to that. And then in the way you communicate the information that's relevant to the patient, there's a form of art to that that causes people to feel. You could say in a way where people are like, yeah, I don't care what you're saying as a pharmacist.

Or you can say in a way where it inspires people to want to improve their health. No matter what you do, even I'm getting my house renovated at the moment and the studio renovated, the way the electrician puts the cables together, and the reason why he puts this green cable on the outside and not on the inside where it's hidden, there's an art to that, there's a beauty in that. Even though nobody sees it, I've seen him doing it, it looks beautiful.

So again, I think we are all artists, and we all create. So I think that's why I think this book is relevant to everybody. Yeah, and I was thinking, I think the stereotypical ones, the accountant, you know, when people think of accountants generally are like, I'm not artists. But then if you actually think about it, when you see a beautiful spreadsheet, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true.

It's a level of intricacy, and it started bringing me back more to like, what's the quality of the awareness and the intention that was put behind the action? And I think when that quality is high or that level of presence or awareness or intent is very pure or, you know, just at a high level. I think as humans, we feel that, right? Like we went down to your parents, like retreat and block of land.

And everywhere that you looked, you know, whether it was looking at how a tree was pruned or how pavement was laid or a fence was built, you could just feel that it had this quality of awareness and it had a beauty in it, right? Without even knowing how it all played out, it just had that essence in it.

And I think that's one of the big things that this book has done for me is, I'm just really mindful at the moment when I'm seeing things that are beautiful or that have this level of artistry, it just creates that feeling of what, or and wonder and inspiration. And it's everywhere. It's in nature, it's in art, it's in things that we create. It's in food, it's all around us, but it's like, how do you then bring that awareness to it?

Well, what we're basically saying here then is that if you're sitting there right now and you think that you're not an artist because you think, oh, I'm an accountant or I'm in a profession that's not normally associated with being an artist, what we're saying is,

look, at the end of the day, whether it is or not, if you do view yourself as an artist, that means you allow yourself to tap into creativity and apply creativity to what you do, which is way more fun than if you didn't look at yourself as an artist. If you don't look at yourself as an artist, that means you won't allow yourself to freely engage in creativity, which means you don't get to play, which means what you do then is not as fun, not as it'll be boring.

So I think give yourself permission to see yourself as an artist and be open to that invitation because if you do, you now start to look at what you do differently. Imagine looking at accounting. And again, I don't think people traditionally look at an accountant as a form of art or an artist, but imagine if you did, how would that then impact your work? If you started to look at yourself as, I'm an accountant, yeah, but I'm also an artist as an accountant. That's cool.

I think there's a really cool framework here around, yeah, how do we bring the artist's mindset or the creator's mindset nearly to everything that we do as you wrap up this sort of bit? It's like the practical application of that. It's nearly more like an intent around artistry in the day to day or in the actions that we take.

And my hypothesis is if we infuse more of the things that we do with this concept of artistry or trying to make something beautiful or having this intent or purity or whatever these words are, I think we understand it like there's an essence here of creativity behind it. I have a feeling that not only is the journey going to be amplified, but also the outputs and the things that we do will be amplified. And the reason I say that is, I think you do this, you do this very naturally. Right?

Because when you do things they do come from a very pure place of creativity. And then you share them and you put them out into the world. Whereas I know a lot of people when they're traditionally entrepreneurs or whatever they'll be thinking about, the business or the commercials or whatever it then looks like. And that might dampen things like the artistry and the creativity to really flourish.

When you've got an end goal in mind and then you're trying to reverse engineer it, rather than just starting from an intent off, I'm just going to try to create the best thing that I can. I really think that if you adopt the artist mindset and believe that you are an artist, I think like you said, it will make you enjoy the journey more. It will make you create things that are more beautiful. And it's going to allow you again to tap into that mysterious place.

What a shame to go through this life without tapping into that space. Because there are things that only you can create. There are things that only you can do. And I think a big part of life's purpose is to do some of those things that only you can do. Create some of those things that only you can create. Something you said there though, kind of led me to another point here. And it was, it's still attached to the whole being an artist.

But this part was one that blew my mind and it was this passage here. Living life as an artist is a practice. You are either engaging in the practice or you're not. It does not make sense to say that you're not good at it. It's like saying, I'm not a, I'm not good at being a monk. You are either living as a monk or you're not. We tend to think of an artist's work as output. The real work of an artist is actually a way of being in the world, not their output.

That's a lot, okay. That's a lot to swallow there. So I'm just going to reason because this book, see the thing about this book is that when I listened to it the first time, Ali, it was so profound that it would be a punch. And then I'm like, whoa, did I? What even happened? So that's why I'm going to read one key part again. You are either living as a monk or you're not. And we tend to think about an artist's work as the output that is created.

No, the real work of an artist is a way of being in the world. I always think about art as the output. Oh, wow, that's a beautiful painting. Oh, wow, that's a beautiful song. Hey, that wall was built beautifully art. I never thought of, I never thought that a form of output for an artist is their way of being. How crazy, how crazy is that? You being you is actually a form of art. Never thought about it like that before. Yeah, I think I think it's like a lot of things when we're very engaged.

It's in the book as well. It's nearly a 24, 17 thing. Right. If you're deeply engaged into what you're doing, whether it's being apparent, being a teacher, being an entrepreneur, being an artist, being a singer, whatever that is, high levels of engagement. I don't believe finish when your shift is over. Or when you've stopped actually doing the practical nature of whatever it is that you're doing or you've shipped the art or you've finished the day's work, it continues on.

It continues on subconsciously. It continues on when you're sleeping. It continues on when you're dreaming. It continues on when you're in the shower. A thought comes to your mind like it is an ongoing process that nearly embodies what and who you are. The biggest thing that this book changed for me was the conventional notion of how we view artists. The traditional way that we view artists are the painters, the singers, the songwriters, the people that create art that we consume.

Maybe it even goes as far as athletes and a few other bits and heases. But what this book really got me that really shifted my perspective on was that art is everywhere. And we're all in a level of that creation. But I think we have different levels of how much we engage in that and how tuned we are to our inner artist and our inner creator. And there's only been a couple of books that I've seen that have really sort of unpacked that in such a beautiful way.

And there's another book called The Artist's Way that gets by Julia Child, maybe might be getting that wrong. But that was a beautiful book as well around how do you get into the artist mindset. And yeah, just on a personal level like I feel like I'm really drawn to the artists at the moment. I really feel like we all innately are. That's why there's two sides to our brain. There's a logic side and there's an emotional or creative side.

I think when you make your life all about the logic side and your work is all about the logic side. That's when people start to feel a lack of fulfillment, a lack of satisfaction, a lack of happiness. Because the brain is both. Life also needs to be both. And by seeing the artist that exists within you and acknowledging that, I think then you start to satisfy. You are more satisfied because these are components of who you are.

I think when we lose track of that artist side of ourselves, I think that's when we start to feel unhappy and unfulfilled. And then you think about this too. There are artists who only focus on the artist side. And if you are only focused on that and too focused on that, it can torment you as well. We've seen examples of artists that always. And again, Rick Rubin talks about this where we do have that idea of an artist where they're that tortured soul. So I think there is a bit of that balance.

That's why there's two sides to the brain, man. If you focus too much on either side, it's not healthy. It's about both. Yeah, it's like a aligned and harmonious expression of who we are. The person that always comes to my mind at the moment is Steph Curry in the way that he performs his art. It just seems to have such a nice harmony and balance to it where there's so much creativity. But then there's also like a focus on that mastery and sharing it.

Yeah, I think we can see it in some artists where it's just got this level of, yeah, that harmony. And they can sustain it for a very long period of time. So on the topic of creating art and being an entrepreneur, I guess that's what we relate to the most. One statement here, I found really interesting. And I don't know how I feel about this one. It's where Rick Rubin says, we are creating to produce or sell material products. The act of creation is an attempt to enter a mysterious role.

What we create allows us to share a glimpse of the inner landscape. This is kind of what you said there. But you missed the first line, which is we aren't creating to produce or sell material products. But aren't we though? I mean, it reminds me of a time when I was performing at the Adelaide Fringe, the Fringe Festival, right? When I was there, I saw the artists that created purely for the art of creation. And I sat in on their shows because not many people went to their shows.

And I sat in on it. And at the end of it, I went, oh, that's actually a really beautiful theatre show. They put together something really meaningful and pure. No one was there. They struggled to sell tickets. Whereas when I put on the magic shows, sure we put on a magic show for people. We felt that we created it from a place of purity. However, we were also thinking about the commercial aspect of how are we going to get people to come to the show? What are people really like about magic?

We thought about that. So I'm struggling with this one simply because if you don't think about the commercial aspect at all, do you then become the starving artist? I think the book also talks about that. If you can commercialize your art, it's a privilege. Right? So if there's something there where your art actually turns into something that can support you, and then can be something that supports others, that's probably more in the rarefied parts. So there's maybe two parts to that.

One is just about the pure creation of the art. And then I think there is another part of that which is around shipping the art, about sharing the art, about being vulnerable with the art. And my feel is, I probably lean towards where maybe you're getting to there, where I think for the art to be very complete in its full beauty and its essence is I think it does need to be shared and experienced by others.

Right? When we think about the long-lasting pieces of art that people talk about for generations, it has been viewed by millions of people. It has been experienced. It has inspired. It's touched. It's done all of these things. So there is an element of that. It's nearly like the experience of others or the validation of the art is maybe what gives its relativity, right? It's an impact because I think what you were mentioning there, there can be an amazing piece of art.

But if it's not then experienced by anyone because it was a distributed properly or shared, does the art actually fulfill its potential? Well that's right. Does the art actually create a ripple that then impacts others? There's maybe two parts. One is, yeah, awesome. Create the art for yourself. And you start with that as your intention. It's about the purity of creating the most pure piece of art that you can express.

And the second part, if you get lucky enough or if you're able to execute it at that level, you can others experience it. And I think that's where we see the adherence of the world, the tailors swifts of the world. And it's like the great musicians of their time where this, there's probably for every one artist that gets to share their piece of art with millions of people, there's another 50,000 that maybe weren't that far off from a talent perspective.

But only a fraction of those people will get to experience that piece of art. And that is really sad if you think about it because the ones that make it all the way, they have been able to go through all the phases of creation, whereas how many people are stuck at the initial phases of creation where there's a seed and that seed never got to become the tree that ends up bearing fruit that the world gets to enjoy?

Yeah. Again, when you talked about Ed Sheeran, how many John Sheerans are there that didn't make it? Probably literally has a brother called John that, but how sad would that be if the Shirley Sheeran never made it? So how many Ed Sheeran fans are going to be like, he doesn't have a brother. Is that a brother? Fact check. But the thing is it's really about, and here's a crazy thought. How many people out there that exist that are actually better than it? Create art and can create art.

That's even better than what it has created. No shade on Ed Sheeran. Yeah. But just saying, however, because of one reason or another, they never created that. See, because as you talked about what resonated most for you when you read this book, the thing that really was hammering down my door was how much art has not been created? Like that just was such a heavy weight while I was listening to this book. I did feel sad because I just thought, how many songs have not been created?

How many books have not been created? How many lessons have not been taught? How many movies have not been made? Because people haven't sat and tried to enter their stream of creativity. I just, like, there was so much pain there for me. Yeah. And where I'm going with this is that the phases of creation. Rick Reuben talks about the four phases of creation where we have.

Yeah. So first of all, the quote that kind of begins this whole section is, art may only exist, and the artist may only evolve by completing the work. And to complete the work, he talks about four phases. And the first phase is the seed. This is where you collect as many ideas as you can. You open up your attention to the world, let inspiration and the world around you collect seeds that you can later plant.

The job here is not to judge the ideas or think too much about them, just to collect them so you can reflect on them later. So this is where you experience the world. This is where you go out, you feel the feelings of awe, you feel the feelings of inspiration. This is where you go to collect the seeds. Next, step two is experimentation.

This is where you play with some of the high level potential seeds, exploring in them whatever ways you can imagine, so that you can start seeing which ones have the most potential. So once you've collected all the seeds, this is where you plant some of them and you see which has the most potential. Then step three is crafting. This is the phase where you have to ideate, experiment freely, and have a clear sense of direction here.

You may start to find yourself rotating back to the experimentation phase, and you begin to refine your ideas more. So this is kind of the oscillation between experimentation and crafting. So you start to take shape, you start to mold it, you go back to experimenting, and then you go back to crafting. I think this is the most fun stage for an artist. And then the final stage is completion. This is the final phase of your work.

One that's supported by deadline and helps bring your art to the world. It's really easy to get excited and spend your entire life collecting seeds of inspiration. Then moving into experimentation and crafting, I think it's really hard for a lot of people. Because this is where frustration occurs. Roadblocks, creativity blocks, and then the hardest part I believe is completion. Ship date. When are you releasing this to the world? It's a beautiful framework.

It's the first time I've seen creativity mapped out. mapped out in that type of roadmap. Same. Like in this way. There's different processes, but. And I think what happens to a lot of people without having a structure of framework like this to put it through is they get stuck in different parts of this. So I think when I just was reflecting on this, I know a lot of people that just probably don't have enough seeds. Yeah, for sure. Not enough clues, not enough starting points of ideas.

I know a lot of other people that have way too many seeds. Yeah. And they never actually do anything with those seeds. And then you go into experimentation. I think this can also be a really scary part for people. Because they sit there and they get confused by how that seeds meant to grow. Right. So there's different types of testing. And when I reflect on it, sometimes in experimentation, I can get lost in experimentation. How so just in terms of trying to test how many ideas.

And I go down too many different paths. Because you have too many seeds too many seeds or like even just like that one seed testing it like 10 different times, five different times. And then not knowing how to validate whether the seeds flourishing in its truest essence. And I think that that was the biggest thing that I got from this book is that when you look at the seeds, the intention there needs to be is is this in alignment with the true essence of the art that you're trying to create.

Whereas I used to get lost in terms of like, is this going to work? Are people going to like it? Is this a line can actually execute on it? All these different thoughts that probably aren't helpful to the actual true essence of the art. And that's maybe a concept we're just jamming on for a second. Yeah. That when we're creating art, focus on the actual true essence, the line, the skeleton of what that art needs to be.

And don't get too far away from that as you're creating that one piece of art. This is so different to what I'm used to because we always think we're here to serve the customer. That's right. We're here to serve the audience. But what you're saying here is we're here to serve a God. That is the God of art. The God of art is.

We're metaphorically saying that is that there's a God of art here that sends signals to all these people out there on earth and going, Hey, Ali, you're meant to create future golf and imaginary golf club for people who play golf together. I feel like you just created us an ad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I created that point as well. And then it's like then you're meant to be here to teach the world how to create better connection and communicate better. And it's like, serve that.

Don't serve the audience. Yeah, which is which is a very different way of looking is you have to understand because in the corporate space where we put where I play too, it's I serve my corporate clients. They are the God that I serve. Where's what this is saying here is that there's this other God that you're meant to be serving. And you meant to serve that God completely and wholly. He never used that word. Recruiting it. But I felt like that's what he is the word universe.

He never eluded it because I think that word comes with the stigma, comes with a lot of weight and certain things. But that's what he's saying. It's once you've collected the seeds that have been given to you by the God of art, you're meant to create from a pure place without any interference. It's kind of crazy, man. Like this is this is on. I know you love it. But like to me, I think you're further along in the woo woo. Right.

I'm standing on the edge of the cliff of woo woo going, wow, this is really cool. But is this also crazy? Do you not? So you're already crazy in my metaphor. Whereas for me, I'm on the edge going, am I crazy? I don't know. I think I'm still kind of okay. I haven't jumped. You're already off the cliff. You're on the way down. You're you jump. I'm the homeless person. Just creating random bits of ideas. Yeah. Well, you switched the metaphor on me. What I'm saying is we're on the cliff.

You've already jumped. Whereas I'm still there going, I want to jump. But it's a damn. I'll ease kind of in this mystical realm already where I'm kind of standing on the edge of reality. He's still going. Look, but I understand the power of it. I just. Yeah. Step three. Well, crafting. Okay. So you said you get stuck on experimentation or the second step because you have too many seeds. And then when you go into experimentation, already you got a lot of seeds.

But then what you do is you over obsess on one seed and experiment in too many ways with one seed. Yeah. All right. And then you can get lost in there. Right. And then there's a crafting part. Mm hmm. And to me, crafting is building. Yep. It's putting the puzzle pieces after you've sort of tested them a little bit. It's like, we're going to start actually connecting these and they're going to form what's going to be a very large part of the fixed work. Yeah. Right.

I actually think you're amazing at crafting. You take those ingredients really quickly from seeds. I don't think you do too much. I don't have many seeds. I don't get many seeds. I. I. You don't. I don't feel you get stuck on experimenting too much either. Like you're through line. Of once you've got the essence of the art, it goes pretty quickly from seed to the quick experiment to crafting. And then I feel you spend most of your time in crafting. Yeah, I do. And iterations. Yeah. Right.

So you nearly go the other way. It's a crafting iterate. So it's maybe a combination of experimenting and crafting. But yeah. And then what I think as well is for different people, they struggle with different steps of this process. Absolutely. And I think it's so important to have awareness which step you get stuck in. And the overarching wisdom here is we can't get stuck at any. We have to get to step four. We have to get to completion.

Yeah. Because I think until you complete something, the world never sees it. So the problem with getting excited about step one, two and three is only you get excited about it. Only you enjoy that journey. The beautiful thing about step four is the world gets to enjoy your art now. And I think when the world experiences your art, that is the only time when you now allow the universal experience of your art to shape you as an artist.

Otherwise the shaping of you as an artist only occurs internally from step one to three. Whereas I think there's something about other people that shape your art that allows you to grow as an artist. Yeah. Just a practical tip that just came to mind that it was a talk about this. What I found if I got stuck in step two and three, and I'll experimentation crafting too much, is skip them, go from seed directly to completion.

Now, the reality is going to be that thing that you create is probably going to be pretty shit in terms of quality. It's going to be very undercooked. But I think what it does, and for me personally, it helped me color in two and three. Because once you go one to four and you've got something pretty average, that's interesting. You can reflect on it and be like, okay, that's the first iteration. But at least now I've got one under my belt.

It's gone from an idea into something that I've shared in the world. When I was earlier on in my entrepreneurial career, that's what I would do. Rather than getting stuck on it, I'm going to spend two or three years on this concept and then try to figure it out and then iterate and get used to feedback. I'll just go straight from seed to I'd launch it. Yeah, you do do that a lot. Just listening to you say that freaks me out. And it's like, okay, then you sit in that.

Because from there, the feedback loop for me was a lot quicker. I could figure out why it was shit and where it needed to be tested and crafted more, really like in a lot. That's the solution if you have too many seeds. Because if you've got too many seeds, you can quickly identify which seeds are good by going from seeds to completion. Because I think if we try to create a metaphor here, because I think without a metaphor, this is really hard to process. You've got a garden.

The garden can only plant a limited number of plants. You've got a hand, you've got so many seeds in your hand, right? So is the best thing to do at this point, planting a hundred seeds and then nurturing a hundred plants? No, no, no. In this case, if you've got that many seeds, you just have to quickly identify which you think are the best and then go on plant five. And then get them to bear fruit as quickly as possible. Taste is a good, is a bad move on. Do you think that's the way to go?

Is that what you're saying? The other thing with you saying that metaphor is do you just throw all hundred in the air and see which one takes? Oh, there you go. So don't over obsess about which one should I plant? First, second or third. Just throw them all in the garden and see what grows. Give me an option. Right. It might not be the right one. But I think sometimes what happens in the garden. That's a cool one. In two and three, it's also where procrastination leads.

Yes. So it's like we can get stuck into wanting to create something so perfect. Yeah. Or whatever it is, you know, whatever limitation we've got. So perfect. I don't have the right information. I'm not the right person to do it. And then we just never get to number four. Like for me, it's how do you get early on, especially if you're a new creator or a new artist or whatever it is? Yeah. I think you just need more reps to get to number four as quickly as possible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, like if you can sit there and get a hundred songs out in a really quick period of time. It's probably better than trying to perfect one really good song at the beginning. Absolutely. I think this, I think this wisdom here is really useful for people who are young. Yeah. And they're in that position where they're like, oh man, I don't know what I want to do with my life. The worst thing you can do in that position is have only one seed go into your garden and plant one plant.

Because that means you're an, imagine you invested your 20s to your 40s and you had one seed and then you planted the seed and then fruit bears at age 30 and you eat that fruit and you spent 10 years planting that plant and it tastes like shit. And then because of the sunk cost fallacy, you go already spent 10 years planting this tree. There's no point planting other trees. So you spend the next 20 years of your life eating shit fruit. I think that version can still work. Do you think so?

If you've planting one tree, I think there's a very small percentage of people out there that just know from the day that they're 5 or 6. Yeah, that's lucky. And this is my seed and I'm just going to go to this one seed for the rest of my life. But how rare is that? Come on man, that is rare. That's like winning the lottery. That's rare. That's like winning the lottery. I think the way to go about it when you're young.

Most people take a ton of seeds, throw it in the garden, water all of it, throw them in your everywhere and see what grows. Because I think here's the problem, right? The issue is I also think a lot of, this is where we stand, it's not like all people throw. I have. This is this is this is the ending towards. You know the young generation are you? Tommy. Yeah, these young kids. Yeah, these bloody young chaps. Yeah, back in our day.

They're ticked, talk and it's stupid little dancers and the my space. Fossilist for your teeth, not your snapchat. Anyway, so what I'm trying to say here is I think what I'm seeing in the younger generation and in myself, I did this one, I was young too, is I pre-judge seeds. Yeah. I pre-judge it before I've tasted the fruit that this seed can actually bear, right? And I pre-judge it. That's very dangerous. That's really, really dangerous too.

So again, just to create a summation here, throw a bunch of seeds out there when you're young. Make sure you've got a garden where you've planted a ton of different things. And this is hard though because pragmatically bringing less in the we were into the reality now. That actually means you have to try a ton of different career parts. And do you know how hard that is, bro?

Because when you're young, at the same time as wanting to live, have fun, explore the world, you also have to be extremely strict with your scheduling because you have to schedule time to try many different jobs. That's one of the things I did, man. I tried so many different career parts, bro. And I think trying the different career parts is me planting a ton of different seeds. And I got to try a lot of different fruit.

And then when I tried the fruit from the seeds that I nurtured, when it tasted bad, I gave myself permission to uproot that tree and throw it away. I think the danger here is people don't allow themselves to a, get rid of that tree and then plant new seeds. Man, this whole thing that I'm currently doing now with you, this podcast seed, when did this start? 2020. This is a new tree. This tree hasn't even started the bear fruit yet.

Yet we are still so enthusiastic about nurturing it, looking after it, pruning it. Whereas I think it's very easy for people to fall into the trap of not allowing themselves to try plants, to get new seeds in the later stages of life. Love it. Yeah. But they just said about sort of using your resources and your time. And there's a great line. I just sort of, I just took a note on this. It's not actually quite from the book, but it speaks about discipline. Yeah. Right.

And how disciplinic equals freedom. Yeah. It seems so contradicting. So contradicting. I love this line is like discipline is ultimately harmony with time. Right. So when we think about that and we want time to create and to go into these, you know, this sort of space of creativity, actually having really strong habits and discipline is nearly as important as allowing the rar, rar and the woo, woo, you know, to enter your body. It's like you do that with frameworks and structure. Yeah. Right.

So you hear so many artists, especially writers, they're like, no matter what, they're like one page every day. That's right. I'm going to write one line of for song every day. I'm going to film one scene of my movie every single day. I'm going to take 100 shots every single day. And that seems like quite a consistent thing with the great artists who actually get to that point that you were talking about, they get to share their art and it gets experienced by a lot of people.

Whereas I think what we see a lot of is people that create nice bits of pure art, but they're one hit wonders because they don't really have a framework and that level of commitment and depth into their craft where they're like, they may be wrote one song from a place of just unique inspiration. And that was it. But they don't leave, they don't actually hit that level of mastering. You know, we're talking about Ed Sheeran.

The reason why I don't think Ed Sheeran or Taylor Swift or Beyonce or all these people, every really going to get beaten is just purely based on work ethic mixed with talent. Right. Not only do they have the ability to obviously access this different plane of creativity at a really high level and not only do they have the teams around them to then help them amplify their art.

I think then they also have the discipline and the consistency to keep doing that for a 10 year period, a 15 year period, a 20 year period. Like you say Ed Sheeran, like playing guitar since he was like six, right? It's if you do that every single day and you have that purity and that enthusiasm for your craft, surely it enhances your chances of, if you use the word greatness.

Well, as you outcome and as you go through that process more and you create more, you only get more refined at it, better at it, more efficient at it. It's a more effective at it. That's so powerful. That's why again, you know, to look into this area of wisdom from Rick Rubin again, it's we talked a lot about the seeds and how to, okay, we got that, throw a whole bunch of seeds.

And then once you throw a whole bunch of seeds, you experiment, you see what grows, you see how it's all going, that's the experimentation and crafting phase. And then you have the decide. I think to finish and go to the fourth step completion, do you have any thoughts there? I mean, my one that I think of is you have to decide. You have to decide on the seed. And you also have to give yourself that due date. Yeah. To me, it's the day. It's the day. It's the day. It's the day. Yeah. Right.

It's being disciplined with that and going, no, whatever it is that we do, it needs to be shipped then. I think it's, to me, what it feels like is you need to have a, at least a loose picture of what the completed part of the work looks like, somewhere in between steps two and three of experimentation and crafting. Right. Like I think about the things that you and me have worked on in projects that we create.

We kind of have an overarching vision of whatever it is that we're creating, but we allow flexibility in that as we learn new things. So we're not very fixed on it, but we can kind of get a feel of, all right, every move or action that we're taking is just getting us closer towards amplifying the truest form of this art. And now I understand what that process was. I think we were doing that largely subconsciously just because of the way that we operate.

But now I actually understand, oh my god, we were aligned with this framework. So regardless of whether other people enjoy the art or experience it, I think the process that we organically follow, whether it's in business or in life is in alignment with this framework. Right. Entrepreneurship to me just aligns with this framework so strong as well. I know the book's about art and it's about zicking away and creativity in that sense.

But even the best businesses and entrepreneurs out there to meet their fundamentally artists that take seeds and ideas to solve problems that then they iterate and experiment with. They craft the products and then they complete them, they ship them. Right. It's nearly like business does have this embedded in it. But I think often it's not done in a very beautiful way. Well, here's a framework and a mindset that allows you to complete things that I think will help people.

And anytime I do anything and I'm in steps two or three, the crafting and experimentation, what allows me to get to step four is I think it's okay, then. This is just version 1.0. I do that well. Yeah. And by thinking it's only version 1.0, it reduces the pressure of it having to be perfect.

It reduces the anxiety of that, oh no, my perfectionist mindset, I want this to be perfect, I've got to have the right thumbnail, I've got to have the right hook, I've got to have the right, well no, it's just version 1.0 in it's okay. And then once you've finished version 1.0, you ship it out into the world and there will be a ripple that comes back. And if you're sensitive enough to it, that will help you shape version 2.

And to me, there's an art form there in not allowing that ripple as it comes back to dominate how you create version 2. But you just allow and you feel the vibrations, you're allowed to impact you. That becomes a small component of how you now approach version 2.0. Right?

Because I think at the end of the day, if you just, again, it comes back to what Rick Rupin says as well, if you fully allow the audience to dictate what you create, you've lost all of you in the process now, which I think is a shame. I love it. It's one of the best restaurants in the world. It's this restaurant in Denmark called Noma. Yeah, I think it's one best restaurant. You're trying to go to this one.

It's a five times, you know, it's the top restaurant, which is pretty crazy in such a subjective and highly competitive environment to win that. And yeah, it's all about Nordic food and seasonal Nordic food, which is in season only six months of the year because that whole region is under snow most of the time. And there's this documentary with the head chef, James Renee Redzepi. And he goes through it.

One of the coolest things that they do when they're crafting the scene because I've obviously got the pressure of being the number one restaurant and trying to maintain that is every Saturday night. Anyone, any single team member can come and they can present a dish, right? 1130 at night, whatever it is. And then that's how they then innovate.

So rather than just putting it into the menu where it's going to affect the rankings and all of that, they create the dishes in this safe environment as a team. It's a bonding experience. And then it allows them to have that creativity. And I think what the essence of what you were saying there is with the version 1.0 is, it gives you that freedom to not put it like to just remove some of the expectations around the art. I remember like four or five years ago, used to always go for perfection.

I do. Like I'm not releasing this thing until it's perfect. And I remember when you unlock this version 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, it gave you the freedom. It's like, oh, it's okay. There's only one point. Oh, like I have 10 versions together to the level that I'm going to, but I'll be able to iterate it along the way rather than going for version 10.0 straight off the bat. And there's another thought here too. And it's that the you right now can only create what you're going to create right now.

You can't do better than that. That's all you can actually do. It's, there's so much in the book about our art being just the purest form and expressions of who we are in that moment. Yeah, that's right. And the quote is, you can't step into the same stream twice. I love that quote because even though you step into the same dirt of that stream, that place twice, the water in the stream has been completely, it's long gone. That first part of the water you stepped in, it's gone.

You can't step into that same stream twice. And beautiful notion there about honoring the moments as well. Yeah. Is sometimes we'll have these bolts of inspiration. And we'll think that we need to do it. And it'll pass us by. If you don't pass, if you don't serve it, it will pass you by that moment's gone and it's changed form and you won't get it back. And that's just a reality of it.

When we're trying to grasp on the past as well, it's like, remember in 2016 when I was good at this, it's like, yeah, that was 2016. That was that moment. Streamers passed. That was the opportunity. And whatever, however you presented in that moment was exactly the level of quality that you could give it at that time. Right. And I think a lot of us, we spend time searching. Well, we go back to memories where we have a perception of being great at something.

And we're like, I just need to unlock that again and I'll be happy if I could just get that level of great. I think athletes get this a lot post-retirement, start aging. It's like, oh, what as fast as it was when I was 26 and then you see some that adapt to it really well, you know, as I get later in their careers, they're like, oh, well, I can't jump as high, not as fast anymore. I'm more strategic though, but I'm smarter. I can use my body a little bit better. I have more moves here.

I can read the plays a little bit better. This is where I see people go wrong in relationships too. I wish my relationship was what it was like when I was 21. 21, yeah. I wish we were in that part of the stream. How can we get to that stream anymore? I guess this relationship is broken and it should be over. I was like, well, no, that was only possible in that part of the stream that you stepped in in 2019. We're in 2023 part of the stream now.

The water has changed and temperature has changed and it's okay. Yeah, I really like it. I just think there's something really beautiful about that in that what you can't get. And what you can create today can only be created today by the you today. And that's okay. And that's something really beautiful about that. I think the practical part of this as well to tie it back a little bit.

Yeah, because I think we're going to have to go between the woo woo and the present and the no woo woo and the pragmatic side of it. Because man, I could spend all that time there. That's all right. It's kind of scary. It's scary me a little bit. I think the former thing is trying to make the woo woo practical way. That's right. Let's bring a balance dial it down. It's very damn weird. I just accept your art for what it is. Yeah, thanks for sharing. I'm going to be so different.

Defending whatever that is that like I think I was trying to be Texan. Yeah, trying to be Texan. Yeah, okay. Yeah, nice. That was Texan. Sure. Like at least 4% of the people that they had that really enjoyed that. Yeah. Hey, Craig. I just stepped. He said it was terrible. He said it was terrible. But it's not about validating your art with other people. It's not about what he thinks. It's not about what he thinks. You just did that just for you. Obviously, that was a selfish life.

That was for me. You just wanted to just indulge yourself with a little moment of that. Feel good. Yeah, that was really good. Yeah. Glad we just tatted a little intermission there. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for doing that. Practical. Yeah, we were saying it's about being practical. So what was the practical side of it? I think the practical side here is, how do you create space to enter this creative realm? Hmm. Okay. All right. I'm talking about this.

I think a lot of this, for me first and foremost, it's scheduling. It's being disciplined with time where you can schedule and you don't have any expectations. It's a one to our block, maybe just to start with, where it's you in a book. In a nice environment with no distractions, where you can just let you mind be free. And to me, the intention there is, can I tap into curiosity and childlike enthusiasm towards something?

Now, if it needs a little bit more structure, then it might be, it's a jamming on a book that you're reading. Is it just listening to one song over and over again? There's a few examples in the book that talk about how you can kind of view this a little bit. Let's pull it back a step or two. And the step that I'm going to pull you back to is, first of all, I would invite you to view yourself as an artist. Okay. So first of all, I think that's step one.

No matter what you're doing currently in your life, I invite you to see yourself as an artist. Have the mindset. Step two, once you accept that invitation, now schedule time to be an artist, right? And understand that it's not the output during those two hours. That's the way of being in those two hours. Focus on the way of being in those two hours. I love that. And let that guide, whatever output is created. That's step two.

So you then you schedule two hours and I invite you in step two while you schedule those two hours to experiment like crazy. Okay. Sure. Sit with a book like Arle just said, or go for a drive. Don't listen to a podcast. Don't even turn on any music and just listen to nature in the sound of your car. And just drive with no destination in mind. And practice just being whoever you currently are that day, whatever you currently are as an artist that day. And just notice what comes to mind.

Or, and I'm just throwing a lot of examples here because I think people get stuck with examples. Well, just on that one, I think what you're saying there is you're creating an environment for awareness. Yeah. Rather than thinking and doing, it's more about watching, observing and just being and allowing the inputs to be the inputs without judging it. Perfect. And I think there's so many ways to do this. Sit at the beach. Listen to the sound of the waves and just be.

Go for a walk in nature, right? It's bringing attention and awareness to something at a really high level. It changes the inputs. I need to check my emails. I need to do this. That's right. I've got this job to do later today. It's focusing on that. Yeah. Well, in those two hours, what you're doing is you're trying to allow the inputs of nature to have an impact on the internal state of being.

And then the interaction between the outside world and the inside world creates feelings and emotions and thoughts. And what you want to do is create time and space to allow the input to purely be able just to go from the outside into the inside and create a reaction. And you're trying to become really conscious of what that reaction stirs up. That's all that you're doing. And then I think part three of this process, and again, just back to step two again, sorry.

But it's really experiment here because for everyone, it's different. And I love the examples that Rick Rubin went through. He mentioned the person that goes for a drive, the person that it may be its meditation, maybe it's you eating your favorite food, but eating it mindfully, whatever it may be, experiment like crazy this step. Then once you tap into that, I think the third step is now noting down the things that occurred at the end of that process. It's only until you note things down.

I think can you look at it with any kind of pragmatic, like if you don't write it down, it just becomes a series of emotions that come and pass you by and then it's gone. So that's like an action, yeah, or a reflection. Yeah. And I think it's really important to note them down. This has been an hourly just making up a process on the fly right now. So we've done this. But I've done this.

And I have gone for, and I've only started doing this last two to three weeks where I would, and driving with no destination is actually really hard because my brain will want to follow parts that I've normally taken, but I force myself to turn down streets where I don't know where it leads. And there's a beauty in that because it's almost my brain creating new, new pathways for me to be able to not only experience my own home city differently, but then it unlocks new ways of thinking.

There's a lot, but it's actually really amazing, man. Yep. I think there's the same with traveling and wandering around, just going into a city rather than following maps. It's just wonder. And don't forget the purpose of why you're doing this. The purpose of why you're doing this is you accepting the invitation to invite the artists way into your way of life. And what you'll notice in this process is that it's going to change the way you think.

It's going to change the way you work, and then it will change the way you live. I think a big part about what you're saying here too is around patent breaking. Yeah, for sure. Right. So you're doing things that you wouldn't normally do that aren't unusual routine. You unlock a different part of yourself. Right. That's where driving aimlessly or wandering or just journaling or sitting at the beach doing things that are maybe a bit uncommon to you. Yeah. That trigger a different part.

Environments do this pretty well. Yeah, it does. A lot of people. Well, different sounds, different smells, different colors. Well, here's what's interesting, right? Because in you setting and scheduling time to experience the external world, it actually allows you to explore your internal world because your internal world reacts to the external world. And this is, there's a part of the book.

I do not remember it exactly, but it was something along the lines of we marvel at the external beauty in the world. Yet we don't realize that the internal world is just as beautiful. I thought that was amazing because I often look at the external world as being really beautiful. Other people as being these incredible human beings, beautiful human beings. But I really look at my internal world as having that much beauty. I never look at it like that.

So this allowed me to go, wow, my internal world is worth exploring. Us having this conversation, Ali, we're exploring our internal worlds and how our internal world has reacted to this book. It's actually pretty. It's actually quite beautiful. It's amazing. There was this concept that just popped up when I was reading this book and I can't remember because something else that I heard on the day when I was reading this passage.

It was the wrong lines of the way that we perceive the external world is larger reflection of who we are. There you go. That was around that passage that I was talking about. And I was like, cool. That was it again, set again, set again. So the way that we experience the external world is larger reflection of who we are. Wow. So the way we experience the outside is basically what is the reflection of who we are. And it's like our internal state, right?

If we're sitting there and all of a sudden we start judging someone, right? Like, oh, that person never does this. Piece of crap. That to me just started being like, I'm mirroring that. Something's going on inside. That's a me feeling like I'm a piece of crap, right?

And it just changed my whole perspective on a few different things where it's like, okay, these thoughts and when good things are happening, it's like, okay, well, there's something internally that's allowing me to perceive this as a good thing that's taking place, right? Because any action or anything that happens to us, it isn't objectively good or bad. It's just relative to how we perceive it. Like something can happen to me that I think's great, but they can be like, that's the worst thing.

Well, maybe I won't think it's a worst thing, but I think it's not that exciting. It's not that exciting. It's not that exciting. Yeah. So that was a bit of a game changer as well. And I think then that flows into the things that we do as well. Right, if we go into work with the mindset of, it's going to be such a shit day again. Yeah. I hate my boss. I hate this. I hate that.

It's going to be very different if we go into that from an energy of today, I'm going to create something amazing when I go into work. I'm going to try to engage with my colleagues at the highest level possible. I'm going to try to, you know, create something beautiful. I feel that the way that we set these conditions internally, we'll ultimately have a result externally as well.

Well, for sure, I think the one, instead of, it's not just that people walk in going, I don't like my boss, I don't like this or that. I think it's really about the way you approach your work. If you go into your work thinking, I'm an artist, I'm going to create something beautiful today. You see your work completely different. And if you look at your colleagues as fellow artists, you look at that collaboration completely different too.

You know, and if you genuinely see them as great artists, you go, I want to go in and collaborate with these great artists. Otherwise, if you go in and you think everyone else is crapping your the best. That's right. Oh, man. Yeah. So it's that's interesting. And it's the same thing with, like, I think conflict. Yeah. I think this is the one that shows up a lot. You, I know people that in my circle that say experience road rage, for example, right?

It's consistent. Okay. Like, I very rarely experience road rage. Me too. I rarely experience it. Right. And I don't look for it either. Like somebody can cut me off and it's like, great. Awesome. Well done. I hope you get home and time for that. Like obviously in a rush. Like, I've had that. And it's like awesome. Like, yeah, it's not, it doesn't cost me that much to let somebody in at an intersection. Yeah. Whereas I know certain people where they can throw them off for a good hour and a half.

And that's sarks allowing it to. Yeah. And maybe it's just a way of expressing a different type of emotion. And that's fine as well. But there's consistencies I feel for the most part in terms of the way that we get to experience the world. You know, whether that's in the good moments and also in the more tragic moments.

And this is nearly a skill potentially practicing this way of creation or art could, could maybe be another thing that helps other parts of your life as well by embodying this type of mindset. Bring it back to that statement again. Read that statement that you started with one more time. I never have written down. Yeah. Yeah. It was the way that we. The way that we. To save the external world is larger of a collection of who we are.

So what does that mean to you then if you have to put it succinctly? So how do I make that information useful? Error awareness, I would say. Right? So that's journaling. Okay. If I'm sitting there. If the world starts to look ugly to you. Yeah. Don't be angry at the ugly world. Start trying to fix the internal. Get interested and get the internal beautiful. And as the internal becomes more beautiful, that will reflect that will dictate how you see the world.

Yeah. Because I think what happens is when we see the world as being ugly, we try to fix the ugly world. Right. Whereas it's like, hey, no, it's not about fixing the ugly world. It's about fixing your way of seeing the world. Yeah. If you're focusing too much on like wars and politics and all these things. That's right. You don't actually have any control over. That's right. And you can't impact it meaningfully. It might be a signal that you need to go internal. Yeah. There you go. Right.

And then be like, well, what's actually going on in you right now? And I think for a lot of us, it's easier to be like, oh, the world's this shit. Yeah. Yeah. People are bad. People are bad. This person did this to me. And I know as well when I'm getting judgmental of others, it's usually that I actually need to seriously analyze what's going on internally. And I need to judge myself first before I start doing it to other people.

Yeah. It's a very common pattern and trend that I think a lot of people that I've spoken to have. And introspection is what I think changes the shape of that. And I think it can also happen a lot when we live too much in our heads. Yeah. You can't be too cerebral. We get too logical. We get too analytical. We start over thinking things. We start mapping out all different scenarios that aren't maybe even the reality of happening. And then all of a sudden, like, oh, my God, the world shit.

Yeah. Whereas reality is just calm it down. It's just a little bit of dust flying around. There's an internal storm going on that. I always go back to the looking at the sun and I'll do it. Don't look at it for too long. It's like if you and I stay in this state of conversation and talk like this non-stop for the next five years, I'll hate you. Yeah. We actually have been doing that for the last five years. No, we haven't. No, we haven't. Because we have moments of these.

He hates me, Craig. Yeah. Now we hate to both. We have moments of this, but then you go back to your own life and I'll go back to my own life. I don't know. I'll stay here again. You're making assumptions. We've been doing this table the whole time. Just waiting. I don't realize I just do. You just have to go off. Leave it at your day. Oh, geez. Just doing a podcast with Craig. But I think that that separation is important.

Thinking about these things and then going back to your normal life is important. Otherwise, it's not healthy being at this level of depth for too long. It's not healthy, man. It's not healthy. We're not healthy. Well, this isn't healthy. Hey, this isn't healthy. We're doing right now. You think this isn't healthy? I think this is. I think this is not doing this isn't healthy. I think doing it for short periods of time is important. It's like everything. I love what you said before.

Look into the sun for too long. Anything in excess is probably going to hurt us at some point. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the next piece for me, okay? Be wary of advice and the passage is this. Established artists generally draw from their personal experience and recommend the solutions that work for them. These tend to be specific to their journey, not yours. It's worth remembering that their way is not the only way.

We live in a world now where you will open your Instagram and someone will tell you immediately how you should invest your money. And then you flick to the next one. They'll tell you exactly how you should eat to be able to live to 500. And you flip to another one and, hey, I don't know who needs to hear this. But this video is for you. This is how you achieve fulfillment and happiness. And they give you the three steps on what you should do for you to achieve that. It drives me crazy.

Marcel, my 10-year-old, comes up to me the other day. He's like, you're down. I think I need to become a day trader. Oh, no. Oh, my God. And he's like, but before I do, I'm like, he's like, what is a day trader? Oh, I think it had popped up when he's watching YouTube. He's like, you want to be rich. You want to be successful. You need to be a day trader now. This is no offense to day traders out there. But it was funny that as a 10-year-old, he saw that video and it influenced him so greatly.

Without even knowing what it was, the first thing was I need to do this. Right? Because the message spoke to whatever it was. So here's an experiment for you. Yeah. Here's an experiment for you. What's 5 plus 5? 10. Good. Okay. Thank you for this, Kevin. No, no, no, no, we're going to be a more... What's 8 plus 2? 10. Okay. What's 9 plus 1? 10. Okay. What's 20 divided by 2? 10. Okay. These are all the different ways in which we can get to 10. There is an infinite number of ways to get to 10.

What is 10 represents happiness. It represents financial freedom. It represents good health. It represents fulfillment. The problem I think that we have currently in society is there is a bunch of people who say their way to get to 10 is the only way to get to 10. It's wrong. I don't believe that for a moment now. And I only was able to unlock this way of thinking through trying to read and start reading a mathematical book, our book on mathematics.

And there's so much truth in numbers and you just need to take certain life philosophies and put them into mathematical formulas and it will blow your mind. I've never done this before. That to me, that to me now has opened up a new way of looking at life in that my way to get to 10. I'm going to do the hard work to identify what my path is. I will, and this I love this line is well, this is another sentence that I have to add to this. And I never connected to this before.

But Rick Rubin says listen to this, listen to this as information, not prescription. Oh, how good is that? Yeah, I've been to book with that pretty much. Basically, but he says it in a really long way, right? But that's what it is. You know, listen to this as just information. So just look at it as inspiration. Don't look at it as this is how you get to 10. So I just want to say this because I want our listeners to be really careful out there.

Because there are so many people who say they know exactly how to get to 10. This is the only way to get to 10. And this is how you should do it. No, I think the joy in life, the beauty in life is you define your own path towards 10. There's an alternative to this as all that comes to mind is I remember when this lesson hit me the most, it was probably four or five years ago. And I had a couple of business things that I wanted to get advice on. And I went to five different advisors.

And I said the parameters that they're all that do have, you know, had a business done over, I think $20 million in revenue or something like that. And I was able to find these five advisors. And then I just sent them a couple of the questions around, you know, based on your experiences when you went from here to here, what would be your top pieces of advice. Right. And then we jumped on a call and I started taking notes down.

And I thought that there would be a lot of consistency in how they got to that. Really, right. And that I would be able to get a bit of a pattern and a framework. Yeah, like a through line of these are the steps that are pretty consistent in the framework. You know, there's a recipe to that endpoint. And they all gave me advice and they were so passionate about the advice. I'm like, Ali, you need to just do this. You do this one move, you know, get that, get that CMO and just focus on marketing.

And sales and cost per acquisition. That's your way. And another one was like, Ali, you just need to go and raise capital. You raise capital. You'll have all of this. You can hire a bunch of people and you can do that. And other one was like, Ali, you need to go into product development. You just need to create the best products for the right people and do that. And then the other one's like, just need an app. You need to create an app where you guys are at your journey at the moment.

And then you'll do it right. And they're all correct. All absolutely correct. But you're sitting there and you're like, oh my God, if I just listen to one of those people, it might have just sent me down on a course. Right. That was objectively the way to get that next point. But getting four, five, six different opinions, it made me realize two things. One is that there's multiple ways to get here. They're all plausible.

What I actually need to do is I need to find out what's going to be my way of doing it that aligns with who we are and is in our hitting zone the most. And that was such a big game changer for me in terms of advice because it's really easy, especially when you're relatively early on. You go to, you go to Vince's page and you're like, hey, this is the only way that I should do this.

But you don't actually, you stop there and then you don't actually go to anyone else's insights and you don't collect any more clues and dots. And then you might not find the way that's the best align with you. So important. Yeah. So again, that the real pragmatic thing there is, as you're on this journey, have confidence in yourself that you will find your own way to 10. And be really wary when someone says this is the only way to get to 10.

Because you ask 10 different people that and they'll show you 10 different ways like you experienced. And it's not even about asking 10 people and trying to find the through line. The thing is to try to find the you line. What's your line? What's your line to 10? Like that, the you line. Yeah, because there is a you line and you find out what your you line is by finding out what other people are doing.

And then sitting there and I think it's important here to acknowledge that then you have to have the confidence that you will find the you line. Your equation to 10. You will find it. Everyone finds it. And I think the quickest path to unhappiness is for me to adopt that person's equation for 10. And then I do it and I go, I feel good, but doesn't feel quite right. But then because you believe in that person so much and so many people are doing it.

And I believe in that person so much and so many people now achieve guru status very easily because they have a large following. And because of that guru status, you doubt yourself and you believe in them more than you believe in you. And I think that is super dangerous. When you believe the other person knows more about you who has never met you. And then you prescribe to their medication.

That is so dangerous to that is so and I think that's why there's a there's a very large number of people feeling lost. Because we're all trying to apply this person's formula. It's like, man, this is like, the thing that blows my mind is when you think about it mathematically. You know how else I can get to 10? I can go 0.00001 plus 0.00007. There's an infinite number of ways. And I think again, it's just that call out to, hey, keep looking within as often as you are looking externally.

I also think they I think there is benefit though in copying other people's recipes. Oh, definitely. If you align with it, definitely. Like try it on as you're figuring out, especially early on as you're in skill development. Yeah. Like say, for example, if I wanted to become a keynote speaker, I would still try to mimic your framework because I haven't understanding. And I think you distill it quite well.

I think there's a lot of educators and thought leaders and writers out there that might not have a level of distillation and understanding of their craft either. And then they share advice to which is really dangerous.

Yeah. I think that happens a lot in the business advisory space where there'll be business coaches and these advisors and when you actually dig it a little bit deeper, either level of understanding of just that art form is relatively limited, but then also any proof and validation of them practicing that art form is limited. And I think it's the same with like any type of coaching or teaching.

It's like, yeah, you can either be amazing at teaching that if you have a very solid technical understanding of the craft, or I think you need to have gone and practiced it in some way, shape or form and we're spoken about this in other episodes. But it's like, only take the advice of people, I feel that have a level of credibility to it.

Either that they've taught others that have then achieved the outcome that you want or they've done it themselves and they've achieved that outcome and maybe multiple times and in multiple areas. Otherwise, if you're going to copy their recipe, if you're copying the recipe of someone that's never cooked the dish, your odds of that giving you a great outcome probably won't be that high.

So then I'm going to reshape what I said before and the way I'll say it now is when you're on your journey, find a group of people who are credible and find a group of people who have walked the talk and talk the walk and done both and find people who have been able to get to 10, look at how they've gotten to 10. But then while you've got all the different formulas of how to get to 10,

don't be afraid to add something yourself to that formula too. I think, I think be courageous in having a part of that formula that you've put in. So maybe the way you got to 10 was 2 plus 2 plus 2 plus 1, don't be afraid to add a little bit of you in there now and go plus 0.5. And then because I think when you remove yourself completely from it and you add everything else from other people, yeah, I think it's very hard to carbon copy as a human as well.

I think you're organically willing to use your own flame on it and that's where the magic generally happens. Yeah, that's hard. That's the art component. That's the you receiving the input and then the input reacting with your internal world and then comes out as a bit of you. Maybe it's inevitable. Maybe it's inevitable that you find your own formula 10. Test the advice in a safe environment as well. Right? If you're going to copy someone's framework, just test some of it. Yeah.

If that person tells you something, give it a little bit of validation. And then if it aligns with you and it feels good, then go for some more information. You don't have to consume the entire framework or thing before I think we can get a pretty good feel of whether this is going to be right for me. That's what I did with those advisors in that example that I used before as well. I tried a few of those.

And I'm like, okay, what's in our level of capability? What's what's easy for us because we've got a natural skill set here? What's impactful in alignment with the journey that we're on right now? I love that Rick also talks about the importance of breaking rules. I love that he talks about breaking rules because when you have too many rules in your life, what happens is that you end up creating more of what's already been created. I see this all the time.

So there's an area in South Australia called Norwood. And Norwood is like a little fancy area in South Australia where you can go down that strip. And there's about 20 cafes down that road. I'm sure Melbourne has its own version of that. I'm sure wherever you live, there's a street somewhere where there's 20 cafes right next to each other. And every time I walk down that street, I go, wow, none of these cafes are breaking any rules.

It's all the similar kind of seating. It's a place that does really good coffee. It's a place that does really good avocados, avocado smash. They got gelato. It's got an Italian or Greek slaw feel to it. And then every now and then there's an Asian restaurant and it's all the same. And my goodness, they're very yummy, but they're all yummy. They're all good. No one's breaking the rules here. And then what will happen after a while is a cafe will close down.

And guess what appears in its place? Another cafe that's pretty much the same foods yummy. It's very rare you see someone in that industry that comes in and breaks the rules. And I don't know. I just think I really felt connected to that in that if you just keep doing the same thing and you follow the rules everyone else is following you're just creating more of what's already out there. That's, yeah, I think perfectly competitive businesses to me.

They just lack inspiration sometimes. Yeah, right? When you see, they're not arguing themselves as others. The same type of dentist, but just the different name in a different location. That's right. It's like there's a market to be served and we're just going to serve it. That's right. There's no real thought behind it. And then when you see it change like I love the example of sector slay.

Yeah, right. Just as innovators off something that was done the same way for 50 hundred years. Yeah, usually in attendance. There's a like we're going to add performance to this and we're going to add special effects to this and they just were able to create something. Yeah, just reinvent something like there's such a beauty in reinventing this.

Right. Yeah. But imagine that imagine that you are a dental practice. And now you're trying to view yourself as you're not you're not just the dentist. You're actually an artist. And how can you craft the experience from the moment people walk in and look, don't just do the area for kids to play. Don't just do the area that has really nice music. Break rules. You know, and I think that's what creates excitement again in an industry that maybe you've been in for the last 10 years.

The excitement comes from things that are new things that are fresh. I just I think people are really afraid to break the rules. And then as a result, we we we just get more in the same of everything all the time all the time all the time. Do you have any other thoughts on breaking rules? There's there's a beautiful concept. I think of convention as a starting point. Right. So say, for example, you're starting a craft. Use the conventions that are already there as your baseline.

But then I think once you start getting a level of mastery and competence to really take you to the next level. That's where you start changing the game and breaking rules a little bit more. Or you go like the other form, especially like I think it's in Z Buddhism and a few other areas is how do you tap into the beginner's mindset. Right. There's such a benefit when you've got beginners mind when you're entering something because you don't have any of those cognitive biases.

The book actually uses an example of the board game go, which has all like you know billions of variations and combinations. And for years like A.I's biggest challenge was beating the grandmaster of go at the game. And then it happens. Right. So go wins the A.I. one four out of five games. And it's because it found a completely different move. Yeah. That no human had ever considered.

And there was able to find that move because it didn't allow previous experience to impact its decision making process. And how sad was it that that grandmaster after that game never played go again. I think it took that a bit too seriously. Holy cow. He lost that game against A.I. and then just retired never played go again. And and Rick talks about how like it emotionally moved him.

Yeah. He cried. He's like there's a pure creativity and how that was done. And I think that that's where we all get inspired when we see something that was done previously in a way and then it's been reinvented by someone. And then they do it in a completely elite level. There's something really magical in that.

I think there's a really big takeaway here for people. Ali and the really big takeaway here is if you find any of the things that you currently do mundane or boring and you're finding it to get a little monotonous. Break some rules. Break some rules and get in trouble. Yeah. You know, don't don't don't go to jail for this. Yeah. But I think I think it's important to break some rules.

How cool is that? That's such a that's such a cool way to think when you start to get you know this is starting to get a bit repetitive. What can I do? And I think you can break rules in your everyday life that are going to bring more excitement to your life. Right. It's like the other day I just broke rules with my wife. Right. So I was with Periwen and maybe don't start there. Maybe don't start breaking rules with your.

Oh, you know, I don't know what we're doing is during the day we had something scheduled where I was still going to work and Periwen was going to go do this thing by so but I said, hey, this is the first beautiful sunny day that we've had all winter. Let's go for a walk and explore around the city where we live.

And we found this beautiful Japanese restaurant and had a beautiful meal there because we broke the rule that day and kind of went, you know, well, let's not follow the schedule because we always follow the schedule. I've almost become too scheduled. So then we're going, let's break the rules. Let's just go for a walk. Let's just go and then we found the most beautiful Chinese Japanese restaurant. Amazing. Could Umi just off Rundle Street in South Australia. Fantastic.

You know, and that made that day more exciting, which led to just a much better day. So spontaneity, right? Spontaneity. And that's a that's a form of breaking the rule. You're breaking the normal, we're not need structure of the day. And it's when you have structures and conventions. It might be just what's five or 10% that I can incorporate here that maybe tests some of these established conventions. And that's where that insight of innovation and change potentially leads. Yeah. That's cool.

We've also broken other rules in even in within my business, bro. It's like instead of because what Craig and I used to do, creates my videographer, what we normally do is Craig and I will create something. Then we ship it off the Peter. Peter's my kind of he edits and then he posts stuff on social media. That's how we used to do it. That's how we followed that for the last two years and we've been able to build a massive audience online.

We broke the rule there. I said, well, look, this is actually more difficult. Peter, we're going to fly you in. So we're all in person and we're going to do the cooking process together with content creation. Amazing. Super exciting tapped into that weird mysterious zone. We were all in the stream of creativity. Time, you know, two full days just melted away and we created some beautiful art from that.

Yeah. I think a big part of what I'm getting from this as we talk about it is as you infuse the artists way into what you do in life and into how you live life. You enjoy life more. You see more beauty in life and you create more beauty as a result of seeing more beauty and as a result of experiencing more beauty. I think it's one of the ways in which we all make this world a better place. When in your life, when you think back, you've done a lot of creation and I'd call it artistry.

One of the things that really stood out to me in the book was the concept of purity and when just sort of acknowledging when beautiful arts created. There's a harmony in it. Like we said, and it's nearly at the end of the book where Rick talks about we know when something's really beautiful because it's only got a harmony with nature.

Like if you see beautiful design or you see a beautiful product or a really nice car or a beautiful plan or a nice meal, it's like some consciously we know that something beautiful is happening and Rick's sort of lenses it's because it's an alignment with the nature and the laws of nature. Right. And to me, that's a little bit esoteric, but I understand it. Like you can tell when something's great. Right. Or like most people can tell when something's great.

And then most people have a sensitivity when something isn't that great. You know, it's pretty consistent. And Rick sort of viewed the way that I perceived it was that's because it's inconsistent with some of those natural laws of what we perceive as beauty. So the question is, what are moments that stand out to you in your sort of life and career where you're like, oh my god, I've just been a part of something where I've created something that's got like this essence of beauty in it.

It's moment of creation. Yeah. But yeah, like specific things that you've done. Where then you're reflecting on the piece of art because then what I want to do is I want to break that down. Right. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So the specific pieces of art. The output that I can think of is. Is experiences. So it's like my workshop, my communication stage workshop in person. There are key experiences that I create in that class for my students. That to me is a form of art.

So do you want me to describe the experiences? Okay. So there's one experience where. Where I do this piece of magic for my my students where there are four bags. And I create the experience of fear. Where now the students are thinking, oh my goodness, in one of these bags is something really dangerous. And Vince got an audience member up there and this person can get seriously hurt. And everyone's freaking out. There's anxiety. There's fear. I you're through showmanship and everything.

I intensify the fear. We play music. We even do red lighting. All of this makes people feel this incredible sense of anxiety and just, oh no, what's going to happen? And we build it to this incredible crescendo where there are two bags left. And the person slams the second to last bag and they miss the nail. And they think, oh, the fear is over. Somehow, Vin helped this person pick the right bag and they avoided the danger.

And then why when they expect that the fear is completely gone, I slammed the last bag and freak everyone out because they just thought, oh my god, why did he hit the last bag? Oh, there's something dangerous in there. And then I released them of that because then there was nothing dangerous at all. And then I'm able to use that experience as a metaphor to say all the fears that you feel in your life. They're not real, just like the fear in this moment.

And oh, dude, that there's this beauty that that's about 14 minutes. It's a 14 minute experience that every single time I do it, I can see their world's shift. That's an example. It's like playing a beautiful song. Oh, yeah, dude, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. So then when you break it down further, did you know that that was going to be a beautiful piece of art, the moment that it happened? Or is it three iterations? Three iterations.

Okay. But it came as an intense jolt of inspiration where I had to script it. I had to rehearse it. I had to try it. It came as a feeling and a wave where it wasn't just with me. It was created with me and Craig. Right? And the moment it came, I had to serve it. Yeah. I love that. I mean, we spoke about this beginning of the podcast, even talking about it now, economic. Oh, the feeling is so crazy because it was the master. And I had to serve it. I had no other choice. I had no other choice.

Now, whether or not I shared it with the world, that was another thing. But in that moment, I had to write it. I had to script it. I wrote it all out. And then when I wrote it, dude, I sat there. And I still remember being it will Craig and myself and one of my other team members. We were sitting there in my kitchen table in Southern California in Irvine. It was a sunny afternoon. And when we wrote that piece, we all sat back and immediately knew that this was something beautiful.

We immediately knew. We immediately knew it was that jolt. We had to serve it. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Because I love that. Because even in the book they talk about when you have these bits of art. How do you then, there's two, there's another, the follow up questions in your around. How do you then optimize your art in collaboration? Yeah. Right. So if you're sitting there and you're jamming on a piece of art with Craig. How do you then know that that input is improving the art?

Like, what's the gauge? It's by not judging it and allowing it to come in and allowing the stir of emotions and your imagination to piece it all together. And you're almost seeing a future that doesn't exist at this point. So first of all, I think being super open to the fact that other people can add to your genius. I've been super open to that and not allowing your own ego to go. No, I'm the artist and I come up with the brilliance. So I think there's a danger in that.

Yeah. Because the moment you think that you shut off everybody else's genius. So I think being open that everybody else has a genius and allow that to come in. Don't judge it. And as that all kind of comes into you. I think once it comes into you. Oh man, this is this is really hard to break down into. As it comes in, allow the feelings to dictate whether it is good or not. Let the emotions be a guide. Again, it is. I love that.

We're talking about things now that I'm losing my ability to describe. But I allow the enthusiasm. I allow the feelings and the emotions to dictate it. I see you getting really excited when you feel good art. Yeah, yeah. I've got a gauge for it. There's a feeling right with the emotion. There's a feeling there. Yeah, so it's tapping into your emotions. Emotions nearly, I think there's a beauty in this. Right? As we break down the creation of a really beautiful piece of art.

It starts with that inspiration, that jolt of inspiration. Then it goes and then in that case you started collaborating. You're like, I love what this idea. Yeah. Then you start sort of maybe fleshing out the first version right with Craig. Craig's like, I have about this. I have about this. You then bring it together. And then you kind of the iterations coming from the excitement. Right? Yeah. You're like, okay, does this suggestion get us more excited? Yeah. What does it get us less excited?

And that's the gauge. But you see, just you, what happened to you there? As you were describing that, you got more excited. I'm sensitive to that in your voice. I can hear it. I can feel it. And then you're like, we're on to something. Yeah. Yeah. You're on to something. And then we continue that process. And what tends to happen is momentum starts to build. Like right now, momentum within this conversation has already increased.

And it's being sensitive to that and allowing yourself to follow that. And then at the same time, having a team that understands that if we don't follow your path, don't get butt hurt over that. And I frame it at the beginning of every moment, well, we're about to jump into the creativity stream. I'm like, hey, Peter, hey, Craig, you and I, all of us will say something that's going to be shit on this path. And what's going to happen is we're going to react to that.

We're going to go, no, no, that's not as good. Let's keep going. Don't be hurt by that. That's not, I promise you, in this moment, that's not my ego. That's me allowing myself to follow these emotions and taking where it all goes. So don't be hurt by it. Just understand that even though it didn't contribute to this, it has. Because it's allowed us to know to not go down that stream. And that's okay. So I create a super safe environment. I'm going to come up with crappy ideas.

You're going to come up with crappy ideas. But on this journey, that's how we avoid going down a path that may not be the right path. I love it. Yeah. There's a few images that are coming into my mind right now. One is that I view you in that scenario like the head chef. Right? So you've got your team. It's extraordinary talented chefs around you. Everyone's sort of presenting dishes and ideas in that. And then you're kind of sitting there and you're like, I'm going to plate this thing up.

That's great, Craig. You've just given us that. What a nice element there, Peter, and then we're sort of bringing it together. And then it's like, you're looking at it and you're like, yeah, okay. Now it's ready to go. Yeah. That's how it happens. That's kind of that. Generally how it happens. And then there are times where I won't have any sensitivity there. I'm like, I don't know guys. What do you think? And then I reverse the role. And I say, Craig, actually, your head chef now.

How does this come to you? And who goes, I think this is how you should do it. I'm like, that's it. That's the one. So I think it's the willingness to let go of the title of head chef as well. Yeah. And that's where the ego has to be removed. It's the sure there are days where I'll be head chef. And maybe I'm head chef more often than not. But then it's not to be attached to the role of head chef and allow. When and again, it's because you're serving the God of creativity here. Yeah. Right?

You're not serving you. You're title. You're role. And wherever this goes, maybe if it's not right to me, throw it over to you, Peter. What is it? What am I not seeing here? Then they'll say something and then boom. It's just that. Craig shaking his head. He's like, he never lets us do any of this stuff. It's an autocratic dictatorship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm coming. I'm like, hey guys, who's wearing the hat? Who's wearing the hat? Am I wearing the hat?

Shut up. Yeah. Like Craig was wearing hat. You just like slap it off his head. I like it. Yeah. I love that. I think that's great. I think the other part here as well. Yeah. Still a little woo-woo. But that's beautiful, though. I think just because, to me, it just provides a nice sort of practically. No, but here's the thing, though, right? And here's the pain part again for me.

Yeah. Is that if you never allow yourself to enter this realm that we're trying to loosely and terribly tell you about, the world is missing out on things that only you can do. The person that's listening to this right now, there are things that only you can create. There are certain meals and dishes that you can only ever cook. And we will never get to taste those flavors if you never give yourself permission to jump into these streams of creativity.

Dude, and I say this with a lot of angst and a lot of pain as well from the sense that the person that's going to create time travel. They're out there right now. That's great. Yeah. And maybe it's Craig. And the thing is, if that person doesn't feel inspired to jump to these realms of mystery, we're never going to get that. And then I started looking at things in life like this is crazy. I sat down with one of my good friends Matthew the other day. We're sitting down looking at the sunset.

And he went on this the most beautiful rant about experiencing a sunset that I've ever experienced. And I want to ripple this experience out to all of you. As we said, they're looking at the sunset. This was just on Saturday that just passed. And there was a couple that walked past us both on their phones didn't even acknowledge the sunset. And he got visibly upset by this. He goes, Vin, I cannot believe these two people walked past something that is incredibly beautiful.

Then there are there are hundreds of shades of orange right there. And not only just orange. No, no, there are hundreds of shades of orange there. Some that we can't even name or give any kind of description to. Then there's shades of pink. Don't get me started there. Then there's also the feelings of the temperature changes on our skin because of the sun rays hitting our face.

And Vin, do you do you know that these sun rays have traveled 150 million kilometers to be able to get to the skin on our face? What we're experiencing is something that has traveled at the speed of light to be able to react with you. All these people walked past it didn't even notice that. And that then made me look at everything in life with more appreciation and gratitude. I look at my son Ali that night, I went home, I looked at Zand and I went, wow for you to get to me.

There's a part of your journey that I don't even understand. I don't even know. Like let's think before the sperm in the egg. What journey did you go from to even get to becoming a sperm and then becoming an egg? Never mind the impossibility of that. What about the impossibility of the unknown there? And you get to be here now as my I get to live this life with you now as my son. I walked away from that.

Having so much more gratitude for you, I thought about your mom that if she didn't live the way she lives, she wouldn't have shaped you to be the way that you are. You wouldn't be the friend that you are to me today. It made me go through this life just from this Saturday with so much more gratitude. And for the beauty that exists. Oh man, it was so it was so moving man. It was so moving. I don't think it's it's such a talent as well to be able to communicate beauty like that.

Yeah, it was we we see it in great movies. Amazing pieces of art, but even like you know when you describe Matthew having having that awareness and that understanding. You communicate it's so passionate like poetically. Yeah. It's what we're I think just deep down we're all drawn to that. We're all searching for those moments of beauty and how to amplify. And that's why it's so important for you to recognize that you are an artist.

And the moment you see yourself as an artist, you'll see the beauty that exists in the world. Whereas if you don't view life through the eyes of an artist, you miss out on the beauty that exists. You just do, bro. And even if you're not traditionally an artist like collaborate with those that lean towards the artist mindset. I think even just being in the orbit of those people can be really powerful.

Like one of the things that I remember writing down as well as going through this book was always had this vision of art. Right. Like as an entrepreneur, you kind of do you have this vision of this idea forming into something into its maximum form of potential. But what I asked to find is I could I could create the framework like the broad level architecture. I could see it pretty clearly where I could get to.

But then as a tactician or as an implementer as a master of actually putting it together. I didn't have that skill set. Right. So there's two forms of this. Whereas I think you lean towards you actually directly impact your art a lot and the quality through you know being more of a traditional artist in that set. You're playing, you're playing the instruments. Whereas I probably go more to the level of trying to conduct an orchestra. You're the producer. Like put them together.

Yeah. And this book really helped me with that and understanding that even if you're not traditionally the artist, the person that's in there draw like you know painting the painting or you know playing the keys on the keyboard. You could still partner and collaborate with people that can improve the quality of the essence of that art. Well that means you are an artist. Yeah. Like again, it's just a mindset shift because the conductor is still an artist.

They're just an artist and their paintbrush artists. Right. Yeah, that's right. It's just it's fractal. It's just a lay it back. It's you are still an artist and the CEO is still an artist except their paintbrush are their CIO CFO. They're general manager team. It's their team and that's their paintbrush. They're still painting.

It's like I'm seeing an artist paint a painting and then I pull back and there's another person that's helping the artist paint and then you pull back and there's another person that's again, it's just. There's just so much there around collaboration. There is. Right. Like even when people get called like a solo artist are they truly a solo artist? No, it's not. Not really. Well, you think about me, the content that I produce Craig has the film it. Then sometimes Craig will edit.

Sometimes Craig will edit. Sometimes Craig will, uh, pedal edit and the Peter has to post it. And Pete wants Peter posts it. Sometimes my media buying team now have to amplify it. And then the viewer has the experience that listen to it and like it's just it's such a massive. Such a connected. It's such a connected experience. There's nothing solo about that at all.

It's beautiful like I think it just again, it gives this shift in mindset can give people a lot more confidence to go and explore this part of themselves a little bit more. Because I feel that art is definitely one. Yeah. That a lot of people traditionally are like, no, I'm not a creative person. I'm not an artist. I'm not an artist. I can't actually do that. I don't wear bandanas. I'm not an artist. You can be an artist. It's so in different ways. Yeah. You can be an artist as the conductor.

You can be an artist in terms of being the performer. You can be an artist in terms of being part of the crew. You know, that support that art. There's so many different ways to be connected to great art. Man, I was an artist sitting on a bench looking at the sunset with one of my best friends. That's right. He allowed me to enjoy the art that existed in nature. I think even in enjoying art is a form of art.

Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate being able to understand it in a comprehend it in different ways. That's right. I remember first, I went to a museum and I struggled with this. I struggled with this. I struggled with this. And you're like, look, you got it. And they're like, this is the most expensive painting in the thing. It's like a red dot. No, my. I really want to understand. I really want to say I understand this. This makes no damn sense. What am I? Yeah, I get it.

Just. Yeah. It's the same thing as when you see people like judging like fine wines and food and all that. It's like that either. Yeah, I'm probably not at the level of being able to appreciate those things. But I think I think you really have to have a poetic nature and see ability craft stories around art and the perception of it that gives it that thing of quality nearly. It's it's improving your, I think we all have antennas. We all have an antenna.

And the sensitivity of the antenna can be developed. Like I see some people go through life like again that day. I am the person that walks past the sunset never looks at it. Okay. So I was that person Matthew was describing. But what Matthew did for me in that moment, like you said, when you when you're in the presence of an artist, they help you find tune your antenna to beauty. They help you. They help. They help you go, Hey, did you notice how beautiful?

They're like, No, I never noticed that. Now your antenna is a bit more sensitive. So I think again, to make it pragmatic, if you're someone who you're not seeing much beauty in the world right now, and that's okay. We all get into places where we fall into that state. Get into the orbit of someone who sees a lot of beauty in life. And get within their orbit because when you're within their orbit, they influence the way you see it now.

Like Matthew, put me aside, sat me on a bench, showed me how beautiful it was. I've told the last two nights, for me, anytime I see color in the sky, I'm like, damn, that is so beautiful. I've never noticed the colors in the sky before that. Like I want Matthew to describe everything. Yeah, I'll find it right. Like just to start. Yeah, you should have seen that. I did a burger day at his place on Saturday.

And in the title of the event that he invited me to, he goes, my son's cooking burgers, it's going to be a religious experience. Prepare yourself. It's so beautiful. He could have just wrote burger day. No, no, no, it's a religious experience. And I had to prepare. So good. Yeah, it's amazing. And then while we're eating the burger, do you know what he played? Hallelujah. The song, Hallelujah. Hallelujah. And we're eating the burger to that song. And he goes, dinner, you feeling it?

Are you experiencing it? Save the bites. Don't swallow too quickly. Keep chewing it. Notice all the different flavors. Notice how my son in the sauce left the chunks of pickles. And he didn't blend the pickles. He left the chunks so that he creates multiple dimensions within the experience of eating the burger. Never in a burger like that. I've never in a burger like that. When I eat burgers, I'll eat. I hate myself. Why did I eat a burger? Dude, he just... He just tried the sauce.

He described the sauce. It was again, I think. So again, bring you back down to pragmatics. It's okay if you're not an artist. Go spend time with someone in your circle who lives life like an artist. Be in the orbit and fine-tune the sensitivity to your antenna. Because please don't go through this life without that antenna tuned into the beauty of this world.

Because if you go through this entire life without fine-tuning that, you miss out on some of the most beautiful things that exist in what you perceive to be mundane. And then you just miss because you've got no awareness of it happening in front of you. I'm that person, man. Right? There's so much beauty in your children. There's so much beauty in your relationship with your parents. There's so much beauty. And again, this is like, I'm getting worried. There's so much beauty in a blade of grass.

It's like in one of the books Matthew gave me was Martin Eden by Jack London. And he's laying in the grass with his lover. And he looks at a blade of grass and he's describing this blade of grass with such beauty, the color, the makeup of what this is for it to be. How it had to get a source of life from the sun that again so far away. And then the girl is just looking at him like, what the hell, you're crazy. Like you're just in, and it's. Be Jack in that example of life.

See the beauty that exists everywhere and your journey through this experience is going to be so much more. I didn't know what the word is. Yeah, you'll be able to just experience this whole life in the most magnificent way. Or the alternative is don't. Yeah. Yeah, makes pretty inspiring. I've never been this inspired about art before. It's funny that we have this book's hit us at this time in our life as well. We hear, man.

I remember even just a few months ago, listening to Brenne Brown, her book Atlas of the Heart, we'll do it in one of the future episodes. Oh, we're going to do it. But she was talking about just the emotions of Oran Wunder. Yeah. Right. And that talks about like 40, 50 different types of core emotions that we need. I haven't read it yet. So I need to get on it. And just don't remember just the part about Oran Wunder just really sticking out. And at the moment, I'm just drawn to it so much.

Or in Wunder. Yeah. Or in Wunder and inspiration. How do you access Oran Wunder? Well, that's the journey that I'm still relatively early in on. But I think a big part of it, it's awareness. Right. Like even when you were talking about Matthew, they're like the note that I've got my head that I'm going to write down is like poetry. Right. Like I think poetry is something that I haven't really explored too much. Dude, remember that video I just made last week on the poem.

I was so inspired to write a poem. That's it. Like you look at that. And it's another thing like art. I think poetry is one of those things where it's like nearly as part of that journey. It feels like a lot of people get led to poetry at some point, where it's previously like 10 years ago when I started trying to read, you know, book of poems and some of them, I have no idea what's going on. It's like a nearly a skill set that needs to be developed.

And a big part of this is what you were just talking about there. It's around the awareness and the depth and nearly adding different types of narrative and meaning to certain things that are relatively simple. Right. And then just really immersing yourself into them. Right. And one of the things that I've just got down sort of when I do my daily journal, it's nearly looking out for moments of or in wonder.

Right. And then just like I'm just taking like there's an emotional reaction or there's something that stood out and I'm like, oh my god, that's beautiful. Right. Or something special about that. And then writing those moments down, it's like a practice of awareness. It is. And what that looks like. What's the sensitivity? The antenna is being more sensitive. Well, I think that's how you're going to access more or in wonder, Ali.

It's like right now, as you were saying that, where my or where I got my or in wonder just now is thinking to myself, wow, man. And this is a little bit of love for our friendship here, but it's how beautiful is this friendship that we're able to have this kind of discussion. And we're able to continue this discussion with no framework going into it. And I've got my notes. You don't know why my notes are. I don't know why you're not.

Yet we're able to have this wonderful exploration into our own minds. And be able to navigate it with such ease and flow. And there's no clonkinness. There's a rhythm to it. There's a beauty within it. We're discovering new things as we're exploring things we already know. I do that's amazing. How many people can I converse like this within my life? Not that many. And the fact that we have this, there's or in wonder in that man, you had to become a certain person.

We had to meet somewhere along the way, which was so indipitous in itself. And for us to care enough about, like this is again, I bring this up all the time. This is not a convenient friendship. You live a thousand kilometers away from me. And we, you have to get on a plane to get here. Oh, dude, it's just beautiful man. Yeah, not beautiful. I think it's, there's a part in the book where when you're doing something that's pure and it has, you know, we go back to that. Harmony is pure.

It's got the essence of art. It's like the energy nearly draws you in a forward momentum. And you just have to sort of roll with it. Yeah. Right. And I think that that's something that we both really align with. You know, if we, if we have a sensitivity to something that's got the potential to be beautiful or great or impactful. I think one of the things that we both naturally do is that we'll commit the time, energy and resources to serving that seed.

And it's pretty, it's been like just in our friendship. I think that's been pretty consistent. And I think about the things that were being involved with together. It's got that essence of that purity and that creativity. And I would say that exactly the piece of advice that you gave then I've just been really fortunate to get into the orbit of somebody who's more a traditional artist and being able to collaborate in small ways with that artist.

So I relate to that side a little bit more where I traditionally wouldn't have viewed myself as that. I think you're much more a traditional artist in the sense of being directly a performer. Yeah. I've done it for a very long period of time. Whereas I was like I only just realized that there's art forms in entrepreneurship recently. You know, it wasn't with the intention of that. There was a subconscious thing but I didn't really understand it. But now I get it.

And this books helped me frame that a little bit better. Like even when we look at our project like recalibrate. Yeah. We look at these. It's like it's the parts of my life where it's got a really pure essence of art and that. And when I look back, it's happened in other parts as well. I've been really fortunate even with business future golf. The core of that was infused with this purity of art as well and that intention.

And now as I get sort of later, you know, what progressed on this journey. That's just something that I just want to continue on. That's like the drug that it's nearly like the search for the perfect wave or the perfect goal shot. It's like you're just looking for opportunities to engage with pure art forms. Yeah, whether it's as an observer as somebody experiencing it or as somebody creating it.

And I think that's been a real big takeaway is that you know in this chapter of life that that's what I want to align with a lot more. Yeah. Like you're doing stuff and you know the pragmatics and the practical aspects of life awesome. But leaving enough space and time for this part. I'm thinking about the person listening to this right now. And wherever you are, what else I say to you is this. If you can't be in the orbit of an artist, experience them.

Right. Just experience them. Maybe it's through music. Maybe it's through your painting. Maybe it's through a poem. Just the most pragmatic thing you can do right now is create time to go and just experience art. It's coming from a guy who's never been taught. I know that's the funniest thing that I think I'm saying. I'm thinking I'm talking to myself. But you nearly like it's like you had beginner mind. I really do. You're such a limited amount of art. I have.

You're able to create a lot of pure art. This is this is crazy man. But as I was sitting there with again, I'm bringing up Matthew again. But when I was sitting there with Matthew, I've never heard of the movie called aeroplane by there's Leslie Nielsen in it. Never heard of it. Naked gun. Never watched it. Space balls. Never watched it. Office space. Never heard of it. Mr. Destiny. I've never seen spies like us. I've never seen legends of the fall. And so Matthew gave me a list. He goes, Vin.

There is beauty in comedy. Comedy is one of the most finest forms of art. And these are the great. Have you ever heard of these? Yeah, most of them. Most of them. Most of them. Never heard of two there. And then what Matthew said, he goes, I'm so excited for you. Because you have this un. You've never experienced some of the greatest forms of art that have been created in the world of cinema for comedy. Yeah, that particular. So and then I watch naked gun the other night with fair wind.

The, the dumbest and the funniest thing I've seen in a very long time. And I couldn't believe that I haven't experienced a form of art. So I bring this up simply because for you listening to this, plus I'm talking to myself here, go seek more experiences that is art. Allow yourself to experience it. And then seconds that if you can seek out an artist in your environment and spend time with them. So you can experience it. You can spend time with them.

And then the final step is become one in your own way. Whatever that may be. I'll say an addition to the final step is go through the process. Take something from seed through experimentation through crafty and completion and set yourself a goal. That can be simple. Right. I'll give them a simple one right now. I'll give them a simple one right now. Okay. Get an art kit. Yeah. In the most traditional form ever. Get an art kit. Draw something. Cook a meal. Cook a meal. Yeah. Be a chef.

Or you want to play in the world we live in today, 2023, create a piece of content. Create a piece of content. And then ship it by the end of the week. I have to put it out. Serve an idea. Oh, that's a good one. That's it. Serve an idea. Like that's the process. That's what you're doing ultimately with the creation process is you're serving an idea. Yeah. An idea pops in. And then you turn that into reality. And you can come in any form.

Just a couple of extra ones for people who struggle creatively, right? Create an experience for your family. Yeah. Create an experience. Instead of just thinking, oh, we're just going to go to this Airbnb. Think about how you can turn that from an Airbnb trip to an experience. Right. Any other ideas? Throw in some more ideas. Yeah. Write a letter to somebody that you care about. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. Write a letter. That's an experience. The person who reads it. It'll be an experience.

An experience that is very rare in today's world. Find an instrument and you tube how to play it. Yeah. There you go. Play it. Yeah. And then I think, I think what we're saying here is as you experience art, okay? As you have an artist within your orbit, as you create your own art, guess what that does? It impacts your way of being. I never thought of art as being a way of being, rounding it back to what we said at the beginning.

That's why the title of the book, the Creative Act, a way of being. That's so beautiful. John Locke. It's a huge amount of art as being the external manifestation. I thought of art as being the monoliser. To me, that was art. That was what art is. Well, it's even now when I reflect on things like your stage program, right? Like you previously prior to this book, it might be like, oh, the stage program, the actual delivery off it is the actual art form.

But the art form is actually the essence of how it's created and put together and how it's the same the other elements to it. It's not just one dimension or like that. And here's how it's all connected, bro. As you learn the Creative Act and you learn how to act and live as an artist, you create that art. Whereas when you just try to create art, it doesn't work like that.

I think as you become and as you live better, as you embed art into your way of being, then it's almost inevitable that you create great art. There's a quote by an artist that we have to actually quote, actually. Actually, actually, actually, actually, actually, actually, just a few more times. It's this one here by Picasso, where he says, the meaning of life is to find your gift, the purpose of life is to give it away. Oh, day, that's beautiful. I love it.

I think even, the query, but not as a quote there as well, is like sharing art is the price of making it and expressing vulnerabilities, the fee. Say it again, say it again, say it again, say it again, say it again. My writing's so messy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the way you said it didn't sound like it was that impact. Yeah, it wasn't a real thing. It was like a confused pause. Yeah, sharing art is the price of making it, exposing vulnerabilities, the fee. One more time, but slower.

All right, maybe we'll leave this one. No, say it again, but slow. No, it's beautiful, but I think your delivery is too quick. I think there's the concept here. Say it again, say it again, but slower. I think this is the full quote. No, but it's a beautiful quote. Don't lose faith in it now. It's a beautiful quote. Slow down. It's like, is questioning it, but then also encourage you to do it. No, no, it's beautiful. The delivery, delivery, delivery, delivery. I just want to leave this moment.

This is not art. Just needs to be slower. You know, I share so much depth in it. I shared an average piece of art and you're trying to like make it good. No, not not. But just not having the opportunity to become good right now. Say it slower. Sharing art is the price of making it. Exposing vulnerability is the fee. Yeah, wow, that's it's so heavy that when you read it too quickly, I don't feel the weight of it. Just share the first sentence one more time. You can. Yeah, one more time.

This is the first sentence. Jesus. Just one more. That was just not that good a quote. Just the first one. Craig, what did they keep doing this? Just the first one. Sharing art. Wait, I'm going to find the actual quote. Okay, find the actual quote. Find the actual quote. I love it when people are like, that's right. That's a word missing. Okay. Just read the first part though. Sharing art is the price of making it. See, just dive into that for a moment. Sharing art is the price of making it.

See, you've made it. Yeah. You got to share it. That's the price. Isn't that great? Isn't that a, that's such a twist, man. That's why I need, I need a process. Because I would have never thought. That's why I had to say it six times. Yeah, but I'm just slow. Yeah. Yeah, or I'm shit. No, I think it's, it's both. It's both. Yeah, it's both. And then the second, exposing your vulnerability is the fee. Yeah, well, I was missing the word, you're, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well exposing it is the fee.

Are out. And what that speaks to is there is a cost when you share it. People judge it. Yeah. That's the price. Like you, to me, just then. Yeah. And that's the thing. But people are going to judge it. And I think, I think that's the one thing that stops people from sharing that art. Absolutely. It's judgment judgment judgment. And the only thing is about fear of judgment, the more I've been creating, the more I've been putting out there, bro, it's that it's not real.

And you need somebody like them to help you iterate it and to make it better. Like just their great example. Well, no, I just need to hear it a few times. But no, but there was a word missing. There was a key reading actually missing in it. So it's like, that's rapid iterations of something that potentially increased in quality, just three. You know, every delivery was still bad. And getting really nice constructive criticism live. Yeah, live. Well, beautiful. Let's jam on this for a moment.

The fear of judgment, that's clearly going to be one thing that stops people from putting out great art. 100%. You told the person to go cook this meal. They're not a very good cook. Currently, they're thinking to themselves, I don't want to do that. My wife's not going to like the dish. And then she'll think, I'm just an idiot. Right? You think, oh, I'm going to get this art kit. I'm going to paint something. My brother's going to think it's stupid because I can't draw for the life of me.

That stops people before they even try. It makes me also think about the greatest artists that we really do love. That they're at such a level of courage. Yeah. Right to keep fronting up in the face of critics and judgment. And how their art's going to be perceived. I think we see it with a lot of artists is like their first couple of pieces of work are incredible. But then as the stakes get a little bit higher, it just never really replicates later on.

Like very rarely do you find a musician who's like sixth album is their best. Usually it's like the second, the first, second, third. It's kind of hits in that spot. Like I don't know any artist that I love where I'm like, I album number five is by far my favorite piece of your work. And to me, my belief is that the art is clouded at that point with the expectation or they've gone to the well, right?

They're creative well or those lots of, you know, when you've now got the money, you've got the fame, you've got the success, you've got all the distractions. You've already had your first few bits of art that had 25 years of brewing. It now reduces in quality a little bit more. So I think it's also acknowledging that when we see great artists, it's like, I think we nearly collectively have to protect them in a way so that they can go into a position where they can create it.

Whereas what naturally I think happens is they just get flooded with things that don't really allow them to keep creating beautiful art. And then the ones that do make it, I think they've just got another level of courage to just service that art that most people don't have.

Like I know for a fact that if I was a content creator like you, if I received negative comments relatively early on in that process and I wasn't that aligned to creating content, it would be a really easy way just to get out of that game. Yeah. And that would just mean all the ideas or whatever that potentially had, you know, to turn beautiful and to be shared in that way, they'll just never actually get there. I think that happens to a lot of people.

The metaphor is that seed only became the tree. It didn't even bear fruit yet. And then you killed it off. It's gone. But you didn't even bear fruit yet. Yet the fruit was going to be the most magnificent fruit the world has ever experienced. But because of the fear of judgment and because of the actual judgment that occurs, they just killed off the tree. They're like, ah, maybe it, no, I'm not going to plant it.

That was potentially going to be one of the greatest pieces of fruit that has ever grown on any tree. It's gone now. So how do people deal with that? That's the thing. The biggest question that again comes up time and time and time again is, I don't know how to deal with that. Yeah. Do you have any thoughts on that? I think you've, I think it comes down to an internal level of commitment to your vision and the purpose of whatever it is you're trying to share.

Because I think it goes back to what we spoke about a little bit earlier. But there's two parts of this process. Yeah. One, there is the process of creating the art. And then there's the second part is the process of distributing and sharing the art. Both require levels of courage. One is to access that realm of creativity, manufacture the original piece. And then the second one is in the face of all the adversity in the external world resisting your art. Are you still willing to commit to it?

Yeah. I think most people aren't. I think for the vast majority of people, it's not even based on their talent. It's based on those certain conditions where it's in the sharing and the distribution offer that the pain or the fear or the uncertainty and the ego, whatever it is, it's really difficult to get cost. It costs us too great. That's why it's that quite of just judging the person in the arena. Yeah. It hits people so heavily because everyone can resonate with it. I feel it.

Yeah, like being the person in the arena, especially I think it's the as a key performer where everyone's watching. Yeah. I don't think that's for everyone. I think that's quite a unique thing. It's good call. Right. But we live in this world right now where everyone's in the arena. Everyone can be in the arena because all you need to do is get your phone. It's good. It's good. It's good. It's good. It's good. It's good. The arena used to be TV and how the hell do you get on TV?

Yeah, the audition. Pretty hard. Now the arena is, I just go live on Instagram. There's an arena. Maybe there's only four people in that arena, but there's an arena. The arena. It's interesting. I never thought about it that way. Everyone can, the barrier to entering the arena now is really low. A 10 year old, your son can enter the arena. How dangerous is that? Not even a fully formed warrior yet. And he can enter the arena and the arena can crush him. You have to be prepared for the arena.

Wow. The arena has never been available as readily as it is in today's world. I think that's scary, man, because the only people that used to enter the Colosseum were the Gladiators. That could at least fight. Now we're throught, this is the scary thing about YouTube. Now there are people who throw their children into the arena. Your brains haven't even formed yet at this point, yet their kids are at the forefront of the arena. And the number of eyes on that child, it's so scary, man.

It's so scary. I think the other solution to this is it's getting into that state of creativity and it being more internally driven. If you're really rock solid and like centered in that spot, it might give you a better chance to survive once you do enter the arena. That's where the vulnerability part comes in. That being the fee, the fees is you nearly have to be so solid in the way that you channel your creativity and your artistry.

That even when you're in the arena, your commitment to delivering that art is well beyond how it's received and validated by everyone else that's watching it. I'm just trying to reflect on how I'm navigating this right now because I'm in the arena and there are five plus million people watching. And I'm just trying to reflect on one is that I'm no longer curious about what the people are screaming about in the arena. It's all white noise now. I don't hear any particular voice anymore.

I just hear a general sound. I can't differentiate the positive from the negative anymore. I just hear white noise. So that white noise now no longer has this. Because before I used to be able to hear the positive things and I can hear the negative things, the negative things were really loud. Would they then shape what you do? Yes, they made me scared. It made me no longer create from a pure place because I would create but I'm like, yeah, but what's that negative person going to think?

Oh, no, I shouldn't do that because I'll do. I put out a poem the other day about my family. I wouldn't have done that two years ago because I was so concerned about what someone who's an actual poet was going to say. And I'm scared of reading that actual poem. But poet has saying that this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I no longer hear that because I consciously no longer seek it out. You know when you sit in a restaurant and you can just drop.

That was a beautiful piece of art by the way. Yeah, no, thank you. Really pure and yeah. Well, it's just I felt like a normal sentence of me speaking could not describe the beauty I felt. But when you're in a restaurant, if you focus, you can start to hear the conversations that's happening anywhere in that restaurant and you could tune into that. I've tuned out. I think to remain pure on this journey of creation, I have to tune out.

I have to tune out and I have to serve this God of creativity, this God of art. So I'm leaning into my feelings and my emotions more because I'm now recognizing on my journey as an artist that people subscribe to me because of me. But if I start listening to them and allow them to tell me how to be, then I'm no longer me man. It's a lot of it. I think it hurts. I think external validation hurts more when you're not being true to yourself. Yeah. Right.

So if you take the influence of someone, like say for example, I come and give you some advice on how to create the content. Yeah. And then you go and deliver it and then it's no good and then you copy negative feedback loop. I think that's going to feel a lot different to if the essence of that content comes from you internally. Yeah. And within. And then the kind of where I think the negative feedback, what's the flip is I listen to you and then it works.

Yeah. And then that means I now have to be how you shape me. And this is the classic example for musicians who have a producer or a manager that gets them to sing a series of songs that they don't want to sing. But then it works. Now what you've created for yourself is a prison. Now you're doing things you don't want to do. That's not aligned with you. That works. That's even worse dude. Never mind the one that you tell me to do and then I do it and it's crap.

That's fine because then I trust myself more as a result. But it's when I'm doing things that other people tell you to do and then it works but it's not what I want to do. Now you've created a prison. So true. So it's about alignment. It's about alignment. It's about alignment with our art always has to be the starting point. And I think the big lesson here is if you're going to create something that you're ultimately going to share with the world is make sure that it aligns with you.

Yeah. To a decent degree. Yeah. And then you can go to who you are in that moment in time because I think then that's a way in a framework that navigate the ups and downs of what's about to happen next. You think about us with this podcast. We've had authors of books reach out to say hey, do you guys want me on the podcast? Off the books that we've done. Yeah. Right. And we're like no. Which some people would look at this and think you're an idiot. You should have that person on the podcast.

That would be amazing for the listeners. Yeah. And the viewership makes a lot of sense. They get the people that wrote the book. Yeah. But I don't want that because I think to myself, I don't want to talk to the author. I want to talk to my best friend. I want to talk to one of our best mates about what he got from this book because I'm way more excited about that. Now can you imagine if we were now trapped into having to bring the author of every see most people think, oh, look at these guys.

Like to me, that would be a form of a prison because I don't want to talk to that third party. I want to talk to you. Yeah. That's why I think you have to have enough. Again, it comes back to that courage. And I'm going to say one more thing here. And it's that you have to truly believe that in this lifetime, there are only things that you can bring to life that nobody else in this world can. Yeah. Well, it's serving you. You have to believe it.

I love that so much because it's serving the art because even when I think about it logically, right? And what are you doing this with you makes very little sense on a logical level? I'm not a speaker. I'm not a podcast. I'm not like in the communication around like, it's not, this isn't my sandbox. Yeah. Right? And then opposite me is like somebody who is like elite at that entire thing.

And if I was thinking about how it's going to be externally perceived or how the world is going to engage in what the author is going to think and all of that, it's paralytic, right? Yeah. So it started to get prey. The only reason this can work for me is A, because it's like a safe environment where it's literally just us chatting like we normally would about a book. Yeah. Right?

The reason if you started being like, hard-earned, I know we're going to prep and there's going to be segments and there's going to be this and then the author's going to come in and then there's going to be, you know, a film crew everywhere around us and we're doing all those things. All of a sudden, I'm like, oh, shit, like I'm probably out of my depth a little bit. Yeah. Right? But the true essence of the art that we always spoke about was going to read books.

We're going to share who we are in that moment in time as we're trying to process it. And I don't think we go too far outside of that. And then fundamentally, I think this is structured time for us to hang out and talk shit together for a couple of hours. Right? And I'm like, sign me up. Yeah. That will do it. We could put a mic in. That's perfectly fine. Right? But yeah, it just changes the nature and the essence of it. And I think having that clarity on what you wanted to be.

Because at the end of the day, like the people that we wanted to serve with, this is there was going to be anyone. It was our kids. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Right. Right. Like as much as we love our audience and we want to serve and, you know, hopefully help people in some small way. It's ultimately also for us in a selfish level is we want to look back on this in 30 years time and be like, how dumb are we? We're talking about it last night.

Yeah. I'll say no, Ali. I said, Ali, and this is, you're getting a bit of an insight into it. The arrogance that exists within our friendship here. But I sat there and I was sitting by the fire and I said, Ali, I said, I said, Hey, man, I feel like the conversations we're having right now are pretty elite. All right. And as I said, that I immediately went, I just want to acknowledge I feel really gross saying this at the moment, but never mind that. Let's put humility, humility aside.

I said, I feel like the conversations we have now are pretty cognitively challenging and it's pretty elite. I can't even imagine how much more elite we can get when we're 50 and can then can you imagine the level of eliteness at 60 and then can you even fathom how smart we're going to be when we're 80 because when I look back at my 20 year old conversations with my friends, it's like, you know, we'll drink and we'll open our love, you man. Love be bros before you get girls. We said a worse way.

Then I used to go home and I'd be like, man, the level of depth that I feel for my bros so deep. And then when I look back at that, no, I laugh at that. So I had this assumption that I'm going to look back when I'm 50 at these podcasts and just laugh at it. What did I say? You said we're probably going to get dumber. Oh, this could be the pig. This could be the pig and it just go down. I might just be downhill now. But I slept on that last night.

I slept on that last night and I thought to myself, I actually believe we're going through a chapter of a complexity. Whereas we're looking at life with a lot of complexity. I think that by the time we're actually 80, life becomes extremely simple. Yeah. Well, we look back at ourselves not to say we're stupid or to say we are stupid, but I think we'll look back and go, look at those idiots. They're looking at it in so much complexity. It's so much simpler than that.

I just have this feeling that this experience of life that we get. To me, I just want to serve it to the best of my ability in the moment that I can. And my values align with curiosity, with exploration, with growth, with learning, whatever it is, right? And I can guarantee that's going to change in different chapters. Like right now, that's what it is.

And that's the only way we can ever judge that is, are we doing it as pure as we possibly can right now and as true as we can to the ability that we have? And when we're 50, it's going to change form. It will. And it's going to be amazing in that form. And then in the 60, it's going to change form. And when it's 80 and we're sitting there with walking sticks, you know, and we're just like, hey, how good was it? Like we woke up today. Like what a win, right?

Like that's going to change form as well. I didn't pee last night. I didn't pee in the bed. Yeah, good. I did shit myself though. I did pee. I did pee. I did pee. I did pee. I did pee. I did pee. I did pee. I did pee. I was very angry. I was very angry. Why is above your ear? I know. Geniuses. Yeah. No, it's funny. But I think it's just, yeah, that was my thought earlier this morning. So it's just the gratitude to have this space.

Yeah. And then to do what we get to do together is what came through. And then probably just more of an intention of creating environments where I can be the best version of, you know, this artist as I try on this suit a little bit more. Where's we come to an end with this podcast? Yeah. Let's continue to remind each other, bro. To see the beauty in life as an artist would see a beauty in life.

Let's continue to remind ourselves and our listeners to seek that joyful state, that mysterious place that Rick Rubin told us about. The realm of creativity, serving the God of art, the universe, the universe, whatever you want to call that. Tapping into the source. Yeah. Tapping into the source. Experiencing things without filter, being open to experiences. Let's continue to remind each other of this, Ali. I think this book came at a very important time for us.

And I think I want the echoes of this book to continue to echo through our lives. This is one I'm going to be reading every year to keep the echo going. Before we wrap it up, did you have any actions that you're going to take from reading this book? I'm going to consciously now schedule way more time to experience the beauty of nature in all its forms. When I travel, I never schedule time for nothing. I now will. For example, we're going to Malaysia later this year.

I'm going to schedule time just for me without the family where I'm just going to go for a walk with no destination. I've never done things like this in my life. And then as I go on those walks, I'm going to try to experience it in the many different forms of experience that I can visually, auditorily, experientially in my body and my mind. I'm going to take that artist's approach.

I think I'm going to do that way more even in my everyday life, not just the way I'm going to holidays, but I'm going to try to do that even in the food that I eat. I'm going to try to experience it, the temperature of it, the taste of it. I'm going to try to the texture of it. There's so many different components now that my mind, I feel like I now can see things I've never seen before because I'm now more conscious because of this book of the different layers that exist within the layers.

Dude, I've never been able to see past this flavor. It tastes great. I'm just going to eat it really fast. Oh, one more of it. That was it, dude. I never thought about the crunchiness of a pickle inside a sauce and why it was deliberately left there to create more texture. Oh my gosh. I genuinely feel like this book has made me less blind to the beauty that exists. I can now am excited to go experience the beauty, scheduling time to experience the beauty.

I feel like we should go eat some blades of grass. Oh, it's grass. Anyway, how has this changed? Do you move forward? Yeah, a few different nights here. One was one of the nights that our idea was just piss off email, social media, slack, until midday. I like the words piss off. Yeah. That's just what came out, right? It was, and I used to do this. It's to be a lot more disciplined. I feel like you were saying that right into my face. Right.

I think the concept there was just being more disciplined to limit reactivity. And distractions. Right? And I feel that that's just one way it's a tune I've required. And I actually used to be better at that than I am right now. Right? Then that probably just flows into like, stop being so cognitive and practical. They change that energy towards being open. And I think that is the word. It's just to open. Open and aware. You know, like the word awareness and openness and sensitivity, right?

Like you said it before, being in tune, just tuning in a little bit more and not getting taken off that center as much. Just because I've got to do this quickly, I've got to do that quickly. Right? To me, I just personally just don't like that, that operating rhythm as much. So that was just a big one. This is an action point. The next one was, I think the last couple of months, I've been, I moved to a process of waking up without an alarm.

So just sort of sleeping, you know, feeling rested and then waking up. And that gives you varying times. Whereas I've always been a bit of a night owl and I like waking up later on in the day. So one of the things that I've just got there is that I'm just going to try, you know, to see more sunrises. That's a waking up before that setting the alarm and then committing to that just to get a little bit more of a jump. Yeah. Right?

Because what I think then happens is you wake up organically and then the next thing that usually happens is a distraction is the thing that you wake up. That's me written all over that. Right. So I'm like, and then when I was reflecting on that, I'm like, I don't think that's conducive to being an artist or this framework. You know, that's conducive to now starting pretty much.

I was picturing like the hamster wheel and then you're on there and you're like, you just wake up and you're just on the train. Mealie running. You're off, man. That's so nice. And time doesn't feel as slow in it. You know, everything feels rushed and I'll go back to like, what's the quality of what the consciousness right throughout the day? The other one was just, yeah, create space and time for inspiration. This is what we spoke about. You want to be aware of it, right?

Or inspiration like being aware of that. Then also curating those two, three hour blocks a little bit more regularly to just have that time and space where it's not actively doing something. It's just trying to find that. And then the last one was, I don't know where this one came from, but it was just like clean possessions and declutter. Like I nearly have this feeling right now where I want to like chuck all the things that I've accumulated over the last three, four years.

I do a bit of Marie Condo again, which I haven't done for a while and just get rid of just stuff. Like, there were like a lot of this book inspired things around like, I'd even call it weights, like removing unnecessary weights. Freight. Yeah, weights of routine, of practical things, of tasks, of, you know, interactions, you know, all of those things and just sort of cleaning that and resetting it a little bit more. That's where I went. Any last words? All right. I'll do the last words.

You started it. I'll end it. This book has inspired me and developed my hunger for life. It's made me more hungry to live. So weird that I don't know if that was his intention, but this book has, I feel like I'm starving to experience and I'm starving to live. And I guess what I'll say at the end of this podcast to all of our wonderful listeners is that if we only get to do this life once, let's taste all the flavors. And let's enjoy all the colors. And I'll just, I'll just encourage you.

You know, before, before time is up, create something and share it. Could be anything. Just create something and put it out there and share it because you're the only person that can create that thing that you can create. Nobody else can love it. The only one that I'd add to that is and be aware of the beauty of it internally. That's it. Thanks everyone. This was a big one. Thanks for joining us for this. Yeah, interesting podcast and one that I'm sure will stick with us for a while.

So thanks for joining us. Bye-bye.