S2E1: Three Legends, One Episode

Bus and Celtics, presented by Cardless. Here are your hosts, Mark Demiko and Shawn Grandy. All right, everyone, just a

reminder to rate, subscribe and download if you want to hear us every week. That is the best way to make that happen. Now, Sean. Last night we all learned with the full list of the fifteen members of the seventy anniversary All Celtics team is and man Sean. It is stacked with Hall of famers, with champions, with people who've got their numbers retired up in the rafters, some of which are going to have their numbers retired up in the raftors very soon after everyone hears this um.

But we wanted to get is many of those guys on a single podcast as possible, and that's exactly what we did in honor of this announcement last night. So we went out. We got Bob Couzy to talk about the early years, We went out and got Dave Cowens to talk about those middle years, and then we went out and we got Paul Pierce to talk about the recent years. And there's not many organizations around this league who can dip into their history the way that we

did for this episode. What did you want to take out of these three conversations that we had heading into

this episode that they're all connected. That that is the beauty of the seventy five years is that, of course it's different eras, but that when you see, you know, when I would first come back, when I first came back to Boston was twenty some years ago, and you'd see Bill Russell walk into the building, or John halt Chuck walk into the building, or Dave Cowen's walk into the building, and there was Bob Couzy and there was Tom Heison. That it can to news and one of

the beautiful things. And I think you're gonna get to at the end of the podcast here is that Paul Pierce cares not just about what he did and the new Big Three era, but he wants what's next. He wants somebody to carry on what he and Ray and KG and that group did, just as the eighties Celtics did, just as the seventies Celtics did, just as Bob Couzy and Bill Russell did, you know, in the early days.

And that, I think is the the beauty that separates very few franchises, and it's something knock on the Sacramento Kings of the Charlotte Hornets, but this is you know, it's different when you're dealing with an original six and NHL team or one of the legendary Major League Baseball teams, or you know, the Celtics are, the Lakers are one of these teams that has a history from the big very beginning of the league till now that you can literally connect the dots. And that's what we're gonna do

right now, starting in nineteen fifty. We're missing the first four years of the organization, but we're starting in nineteen

fifty with Bob Cuzy. Then we're wrapping up with present times with Paul Pierce, everyone. Enjoy this episode. You're not gonna hear anything like this anywhere else. Enjoy all right. It is my absolute pleasure to welcome in one of the pillars of this organization, Bob Couzy. He has been

around and with the franchise since nineteen fifty. Um rattled off a bunch of championships, bunch of All stars, and all of these things, and that is the reason why he was selected by thousands and thousands of fans and many Celtics media members as a member of the seventy anniversary All Celtics teams. So, first of all, Mr Couzy, congratulations on that accomplishment. Thank you fun. It is absolutely

fun to be talking to you right now. And I the first question that I want to ask you is, you know, a lot of people out there might not understand the road that you took to get to the Celtics and it was a little bit interesting to to

wind up with in Boston with the team. Can you just recall what that process was with the multiple drafts that went and you know it might be possible leave Mark because today every kid who bounces the ball and every school yard in the world and has any success in high school or college assumes this is going to lead him to a career in the NBA and he's going to be a big star and all these wonderful

things are gonna happen. Uh, it's hard to believe, but we I never once fantasized about playing in the NBA. I never saw an NBA game in the four years I was at school. I was school forty six, flow fifty. We won the n c A A, we played in a two more time. Mean, we had a very high profile, successful four years. I never saw, as I say, an NBA game during that period. We didn't talk, we didn't

discuss it. The NBA was at the bottom of the totem pole until someone called me and said, hey, you've been drafted by the number one, by the Twice City Blackhawks. And I remember saying to the report, well, you know, I wasn't a bad student at Holy Court. I must have been asleep in geography. What the hell is a try City? Well they printed the Tri City Bugle printed that on the headline the next day, coz he says,

what the hell is a tri City? Well, the I did I found out Now it's Quad City and it's rock Island mallin Downport Whatever, and the owner, Ben Karner, I think, didn't know what it was either, because he lived in Buffalo. And he called me and said, goes, come on, I drafted, Joe, fly up here and let's have lunch. So I flew up. He let me drive his Cadillac to the west of that. I thought that would excite me. We sat down and Ben said, okay, Bob,

what's it gonna take? And I said, based on the experience with the two up in New England, I said, Mr Karner, I need ten thousand dollars. What a thousand dollars? He started tearing his hair because he no one, and no one in the league makes more than five or six. You're just starting. I said, I'm sorry, Mr ka but that's it. And oh jeez. Anyway, I got back. I took a cab back to the cage. Do you want to took the cab back and went back continued teaching

ladies to drive. A week later, they somebody called me and said, hey, you've been traded to Chicago. I said, and I'm not going to Chicago. I just got married. We had established our home. We were going to live in Worcester, and I said, I'm not gonna Within a week, Chicago went bankrupt. Everybody was distributed to players. There were

three players that were not distributed. He had led the league in scoring the year before, a good Jewish player, max Is Lawski, Hall of Fame, Point God, Andy Phillips and more. That was the only the three. Uh pottle Off was The commissioner called Walla Brown, philadelph Boston, Philadelphia, New York had not received plays in the dispersal. They went to New York picked out of a hat. And as I'm told my my dear friend Donald, well that thing. He said to Walla Brown and make sure and I'll

come back with Calzy. Anyway, new York picked first, and they were looking for a good Jewish player, and and max Is Laski was excellent. They picked and they picked out Max and they celebrated. Phillip picked second. UH picked Andy Philip and they were very happy with that. So the only thing left on the hat other than the band was more and I. Walla Brown called me the next day and said, Bob, we picked you. Come into Boston. I went in his little office was jammed with newspaper people.

He said come on, come on, come on, let's get out of here. Let's go to the Ben's and then the man's home. And he asked me the same question and said, Bob, what's it gonna take. I said, Mr Brown, I need ten thousand dollars. He thought about it for

a while and while it was not a wealthy owner, and said how about nine? And I said, Mr Brown, you've got a deal in the West, as they say as hisstly the rest is this year. That's unbelievable. And you mentioned Arnold right there, For some of our listeners

out there who don't know, that's Arnold red Aurbeck. How did your relationship with him develop over the years after their Arnold was a tough Jewish kid who had to fight his way to school every day in Brooklyn, and the most important thing in the world to him was winning. And I had the same ghetto background, and I was ready to kill, kill, kill to win. Uh. Once we discovered we had that in common, everything else disappeared. I

long ago. I don't think he even saw me play. UH. When I graduated, he Walla hired him to build a team from scratch. And you need big people then and today. That's what you start with people play this game, and big talented people are better than small talented people. And there was a guy named Chuck Share six eleven bowling green. I don't know how I remember that, but I do.

And uh all Bob Cowsie, who was the choice forhead, and that's why he supposedly said, hey, I'm they had a win, not not draft yokel, local yokels or some such thing. And I was the darling of the local press. I had cohabitated with him for four years at Holy Courst. We've done nothing but win. We would sell out the Boston Garden every time we played there. The Celtics would would get two or three thousand people if they were lucky,

so obviously the press was gonna support me. But anyway, all of that mark disappeared because Donald and I wanted to win so badly, and in sports you bond very quickly when when the coach and his players both failed this way, What was it that that got you guys to the point where you did win together? What what changed? Two things? Russell and Hainsen Very simple, No, I had I did the afterward for the Celtic seventy fifth anniversary thing, and both times I refer to this, I put in

polentheses thanks to us. Obviously, US was the key part of that ingredient that four Miller. But Arnold. Arnold was not a great coach in a traditional way or certainly in how we think about successful college basketball coaches today. He wore seven hats. He had to do everything in those days. Literally. Uh, Road secretary he taped the ankles for God's sake, said, yeah, we didn't know, Lad, you didn't have your own trainer, you know, I mean it was did he do a good job? I didn't need

taping in those days. I was young and healthy. So he wore so many hats. But he was good in my judgment, Well he was in choosing players. I think he could identify talent better than anyone else. He Uh, he could acquire talent, as he proved with Russ and Bird and a lot of other instances. McHale. He could. He could attracted or get it, and then he could

motivate it. Uh. And that's really all you needed. What if if what you did with successful in terms of acquiring the talent, now you did it so often as you do today. It requires constant motivation. That's not easy to do, and uh he was for the most part able to do that. So uh but I mean if we talked about X and owing and scouting reports and film spending all the time in the film on that they do today, forget it that he wouldn't have had time for that, Frankly, So he was. He was the

most successful coach of his time. It was well deserved in my judgment. He was also a little smarter than everyone else, frankly, and he proved that and a lot of the negotiations we uh we talked about. And I

also think he was an excellent game call once the game began, in terms of matchups and substitutions and that part of it. I think he was as good as anyone else. Well, you mentioned Bill Russell and you mentioned Tommy Heinsen. They are I believe, two of five of your teammates who are on the seventy anniversary team as well as you, Um, Sam Jones, John Halcheck. You guys overlap for a couple of years. Bill Sharman, Bill Russell,

and Tommy Heinsen. When you hear those names, what are the memories that kind of fled back into your mind? You can't possibly guess what that means to a creative point god because his success and my success was uh completely predicated on playing with eight Hall of Fame. As I I mentioned earlier, I think that I led the league for eight uh eight consecutive he is and assists I wouldn't have led once without the eight Hall of Fame.

As I was passing to, I was and still think that I was as creative as any point guard that said, or any player let's played the game. Frankly, I would put that skill on a par with anyone. But after you do all those wonderful things as a creative point guard on the floor and and hopefully create this wide open shot for someone, they'd better finish it off by

putting it in the basket. And I played with guys that never missed the Shaman Sam Jones, I mean, they were my primary targets, but Heinsen would take it to the basket, very effective for a big guy six seven. He took it and finished as well. Frank Ramsey finished well. Us Arnold used to tell us because us was so critical to our success, and he played less, and I I think, uh most most productive here in terms of minutes played. We we averaged forty four minutes a game.

I mean, I hear today about guys and they play eleven people, and we played seven or eight men games. Anyway, Less uh, so Arnold would tell us, if you want to take a blow, do it on offense, not on defense. So Less would get every day be bound he went. After I would get off to the side, he he'd outlet the ball and he wouldn't run the ninet. If he wanted a blow on ofense we'd finished to break,

it would be seman Heinson. Once Sam joined at Hoever, so uh, any time as I caught the ball and another asset, which is why I was successful, I had

exceptional poephial version. I could literally see nine degrees either way, which gives you as you catch the outlet and look at the floor because now from that point you get the ball, transition depends on how quickly you get it from point A to point B, which is the top of the of the opposing lane, and you've got to uh pick up the other nine people have got to like make a photograph in your brain so you know immediately h where they're all situated as opposed to who

you wing. People are going to be, or where the defense is and what they how many people they're going to have all these clicks in And I would do that as I went as quickly as I could to the top of the key. But if I caught as I started thus starting to move down floor and he would move do it in key games or in a player he would have on the extra ninety feet, I

would ignore. Even if I had a layup in one of the lanes, I would ignore Tommy whatever, because plus, you have to feed your people if you're going to get them to work and repeat the same thing. I would at the last minute, instead of flipping the one side and opening it up for the other, I would move dribble the ball over that side to open the lane for us, and just to do what today they

do the high lot. Then just throw it up there and he would slam it through, hopefully because he needed to be rewarded for, as I say in my judgment, running the extullent ninety ft. But anyway, having eight Hall of fame to do these wonderful things too, I've often often Offen said, I've occasionally maybe once or twice, UH compared basketball through an art form, and I guess this is where my ego comes into it. If that's there's any truth to that. It resides in the point guard position.

And all we did was on transition. If we never called the play, we had six placed mickey mouth plays to call. If we never called a play all game. Arnold was happy because that meant we blew their doors off with the transition game, and we did it so effectively. And so when a creative point god does these wonderful things through as I say, create the opportunities, and it changes every time down. That's why as a fan you kind of like watching an artist with a different ports

at each time. If you're early a basketball fan, you appreciate this. And the beauty of it is that the point guard when he when he starts down, he doesn't know what he's going to do. It's not pre planned, so uh, his moves and creating it entirely predicated on what the defense does. One guy back, two guys back, three guys back. All of it is going to change. How as I say, you create the opportunity, and that

changes every time down. So this adds another dimension to the fans, to the fans uh uh experiencing and hopefully liking what he sees. But after you've done all that mark you need a successful conclusion otherwise the painting doesn't sell.

So this is why you have favorites, your passed two guys that never miss And that's why Sam Tommy to want offer mentioned after I did all these things and create an opening for them, boy, they would better finish it successfully and the place explode olds and everybody's a happy camp. So that's the process. And and as I say,

my success was entirely predicated on the eight Hall of Famous that I played. Well, all that success and all of those those paintings that you do with your artwork on the court led to a bunch of All Star appearances in it. Some of our listeners might not know that you played in the first All Star Game back in nineteen fifty one, I believe, and it was at Boston Gardens. Yeah, that's that's that was the no. I played thirteen years. I played on thirteen All Star Games. Ten.

I think ten as a startus. I don't know. I've been told I haven't researched. It's that only two or three other players have done that, So Michael, I don't know. I think Khem might have. Anyway, I've been able to play in an All Star Game and every year, Well, what do you remember about that first one? And how different you know that first one was than what we see nowadays. Yeah, you know, I don't have a lot of we call about. I don't know a lot of Uh,

but I think you're doing pretty well. Yeah, I don't. I remember it was kind of a dull game. I don't remember that there was a lot of excitement attached to it. I'll be honest with you, Mark, uh Uh. Playing in the All Star Game it was like like having a day off. It was a nice experience. You saw, you kind of socialized with people you normally wouldn't. It was two or three days at the hotel, lay back and relax in the middle of a hectic rest field season.

So it was that kind of a holiday experience. And yeah, you played the game without worrying that much, believe it or not, about winning a loop, just having a good time and showing awful little bit because I was a show I was a complete show off. Uh so, but I but I was. I was fortunate in those days, and I was blessed with God given skills that allowed

me to do the unorthodox would ease what I was doing. Now, excuse me what I was doing then, Every twelve year old and every school yard today is doing it with much more pinoch. But the fact was, in nineteen well throughout my career, pretty much I was the only one that had the skills to do it. I didn't abuse it. I said I was a show. I used it when I was appropriate to use it. I was not unaware that the fans like the unorthodox, and I was able to do some of it. I I don't even think

it was ten percent of my game. If there was a reason, if if if doing it the Orthodox way was the way to achieve to get the pass to the one I wanted it to go to, and I couldn't do it in front of me, I would, perhaps, you know, do it, as I say, in a fancier way, and if it worked, I got the fans attention, and that also put uses in the seats. I wasn't in those days. We were all aware, you know, the only time would fill the place up is when the globe

trotts came in. So we were aware we were at the bottom of the totem pole and we needed to do everything possible to help market and promote the sport we were involved in. So that was all part of it, But I don't I so the All Star Game gave us that kind of an opportority, relax, enjoy people you wouldn't normally social, interact with, and then play a game,

show off a little bit without Yeah, yeah, a further win, But it wasn't the kind of stress attached to just a regular home game. One last question for you before we wrap up. I know that you went into some color commentating for a while with the team and sometimes a long Tommy, sometimes stepping in for Tommy, and you called a bunch of the games in the nineteen eighties, and I want to ask you about that, that big three that came together and Robert Parrish, Kevin McCall and

Larry Bird. What from from your perspective, through your eyes, made that group of three players so special during the nineties. Well, I mean they complimented, they complimented each other so well. I mean bird Bird perhaps is the best shoot of the Celics I've ever had, and he had a wide variety of shots. He didn't have speed, he didn't have exceptional strength, but boy, he Uh, he didn't have of any imperfections, but he got talking about a guy that

got the most out of his talent, you know Bird. Uh, So that that was a stable Kevin McHale was probably the biggest surprise. I don't remember the details at a deal now that Arnold got Kevin and Robert Parish. I think Bob McAdoo was so And I didn't even think McAdoo was an All star. Factly, I couldn't believe. I didn't. I hadn't seen Parish or McHale, so I couldn't make a determination initially, but boy, it became obvious that was the biggest steel of the of perhaps in the NBA history. Really.

Robert Parish was just consistent. He was the less flamboyant of the three, but he was a consistent factor defensively in rebounding where you need. Absolutely, that's what us all gave us for years, consistency in those two areas, and

that allows the offense to do its wonderful thing. And Bird and Michael Michael became as difficult and in the paint guy, I'm trying to think if there's been any sense, But at the time I used to say there's no one more difficult to god or with more moves within six ft of the best, he would get a good shot off every time, more times than not to all foul as well. He he had exceptional moves, very bipe player.

Uh So to get these three guys together on the same team, complimenting each other, it's so unusual and the results were predictable. Well, Mr Couzy, I I appreciate you coming out. I know our fans who are listening right now are so appreciative for you taking the time to talk to us. And luckily for them, we go from one Legend and Bob Cuzy and they're gonna be able to hear Deve Cowen's coming up next. So thank you again for the time and congratulations on being a member

of Versary All Celtics team. Today's episode is presented by the Boston Celtics credit card powered by Cardless. You'll be eligible to earn a special sign up bonus when you apply and are approved at Carloss dot com Slash Celtics. Then redeem your points for cash, back, game tickets, merch in much more. Card issued by First Electronic Bank Member

f d I C offers subject to credit approval. Visit Cardless dot Com Forward slash Celtics for more information. That's cardless dot Com Forward slash Celtics. Alright, folks, it's my pleasure to welcome in in all times Celtics Legends, Celtics Great, a member of the seventy fifth Anniversary All Celtics Team and a member of the NBA seventy fifth Anniversary Team. Dave Cowen's Dave, thank you for coming out with us

number one and number two. Does it still feel as special to hear these accolades still rolling in, you know, this far after your playing days came to an end. Well, sure it does. It. It's always good to hear an affirmation about you know, what kind of effect you had on people that like basketball, the fans, the kids, you know, and we're we're you know, we promote the game of basketball. That was part of the thrill of being a player and a teacher and a coach is to just keep

the game moving forward. Um, because that's what everybody did for us prior to coming in, and uh we I think we did our part. You definitely did, and you took home a couple of championships in those seventies years. And two of your longtime teammates also were chosen to the seventy fifth anniversary All Celtics Team, and Joe Joe

White and John Halcheck. Can you kind of just take us back to those days and what it was like spending you know, eight or nine season seasons with those guys and raising a couple of banners with them here in Boston. Well, it was you know, they talked about, if you're gonna win a championship, you need at least three guys that have the ability to make an All Star team. And so we were very blessed the fact

that we had Joe Joe. I got to play with Joe Joe and John Um and then and then when Paul Silas came, he was another guy you know that made All All Star Team. One one year, I think we had four guys on the All Star team. The Knicks had like three guys on the All Star team. So, like, you know, like only three or four teams were represented by the East that you know that particular year. But that's just the way it was, what you know, And

I'm not sure who voted for and how everybody got on the team at that point. I don't know if they had fan voting then or not. Hey, Sean, I know you want to jump in and talk about the seventies, so let's get to it. Well, one of the common themes they've in when you ever recap Celtics history and we see the legends coming back into the building from at the time, it's sort of the passing on of the legacy from the team from the sixties to the

seventies to the eighties. But go back to nine. When you walked into this situation, there wasn't ESPN, there wasn't the Internet, there wasn't How aware were you of what you were walking into? Just seemed normal because there wasn't any of that anywhere else ever either. I mean, you didn't have talk shows, you didn't have anybody covering the game. If you went on the road, you played the game.

The only people who knew you were in the in the in the city with the people that went to that ball game that night, and maybe somebody listened to the radio Johnny. Most you know are the guys down in Philadelphia, in that area. So when the game was over, there were no interviews after the game. There were no interviews before the game. There were no replays, there were no highlight films, there was no JumboTron, there was no

none of it. It was just that was the game and you moved on, just like if you were playing a high school game. Someplay kind of the same thing. How do how do you compare that? I'm just curious to get your take, Dave, Like, how do you compare that to what you see nowadays and what you experience if you go to an NBA game now? Which which did you like more? Well, it's it's just, you know, the game, everything is hyped up so much now you

know people do. It's just it's just again promoting the game, and and it's you know, it's it's evolved to what it is. Um. You know, there's pros and cons to everything, and I'm you know, you want to want to compare and break everything down. There's so many things that are different with this game than what I played. And until probably until the late eighties or nineties, it was kind

of the same. And after that it kind of took on a whole new genre of this is what we're gonna do, this is what's important, opening it up a lot more dribbling, a lot more perimeter shooting a lot more, dunking wide open, getting to the basket. You know, it was just it was just so different. And um, but I look at the things that say, well, what happens now when I'm watching a basketball game, that did not happen when I play. Well, first of all, people didn't

fall down very much. Now everybody's falling down out of bounds all the time, right, Nobody high five when you miss free throws are made free throw The bench didn't care. They were hoping you would get in foul trouble so they could actually go in and play. So they were all hyped up about you and jumping all over place and holding people back. If you dunked the ball, you dunked the ball and that was it. You know. There was no there was no the shenanigans about you know, yelling.

I never saw anybody yell after doing something or flex or act like you've got muscles and all that others. You know, it's just it's just all of that, the theatrical things that are going on now that it's just part of the show. And um, so ours was much more, some dude, um in terms of the environment. Um, I we wanted I don't think I ever went over and showed anybody's hand after a ballgame, no matter it was to win a championship or playing a game or whatever.

It was just you walked off the floor. It's the interesting site when we wanted seventy four in Milwaukee, if you ever see what happened at the end of that game, all the Bucks just walked off the floor. They didn't come over and say anything to us, But we didn't say anything to that. We just kind of went our own way and that was it, you know. And so so it's just a whole different environment because well, in terms of the relationships within the players, I didn't know

any of those guys. I didn't have I didn't play au with him, or I wouldn't involve in anything growing up high school. You know. Now it's just they're they're together part of this whole basketball scene from the time they're thirteen years old. If they're good enough, you know what I mean. That's they're going from one school to another school trying to get on a good team so they can win something. And then you know, it's just

a total different, total different deal, you know. So there's that's just something one of some of the things that are kind of interesting. Of course, we didn't have any instant replay, you know, we didn't have an arc to take charges we add to the game. It's just so many rule changes, you know. And you were able to get up in people. You ever put a hand on somebody, you couldn't didn't have the backball just because they were facing the basket. Um. But um, you know, I can't

go on and on. There's just so many differences in the game. And I just say, if the people like it, it's entertaining, and that's all that mattered, you know what I mean, Because as all the sports have changed the same way. Imagine what Johnny would have done with those instant replay breaks and they're looking at the replay. I don't know what they're looking at. I saw it. So you mentioned that the seventy four Finols, which I've become

fascinated with. I'm too young to remember the game in the seventies, but I'm fascinated with it because it becomes It's a part of NBA's history that doesn't get discussed. If you talk to Celtics fans, depending on their age, they're gonna talk about Garnett, Pierson, Allen if they're a

certain age, if they're older, they'll talk about Bird and McHale and Parish in that Big three, and then there are people that will talk about Bill Russell's. But the seventies gets overlooked. And when you talk about seventy four, even within its context, seventy four compared to seventy six, I don't think people talk nearly enough about it, particularly in Boston and the Celtics group, because I think that seventy six game is on TV a lot, It gets

replayed a lot. Seventy You got to go to YouTube to find the stuff from seventy four. It had been five years since the Celtics had won a championship. You guys hadn't won one. And that doesn't seem like a lot now, But back then, people in Boston were used to winning a championship every year. Was there any going into that season and you had the amazing year the year before and half a check gets hurt and you

lose the Knicks in the conference final. Was there pressure even that you put on yourselves going into that season that we need to there's something here in Boston we have to live up to that this group, we have to win a championship. Never, I never thought that way. To me, I didn't even care about thinking to so much so we have to win a game. To me, it was just okay, you go out here and compete.

The pressure came when, okay, you gotta make a free throw, you know, to win a ball game or tie it up or something like that, or you gotta get a stop. Then sort of the pressure comes because it's it's finite, you know, I got to do something otherwise gonna go one way or the other. But I never worried about any of that stuff because it's a waste of time. And all that matters is that, you know, you say, one possession at a time, one trip up and down

you're doing. That's all it matters, is that are you doing the right thing consistently and a little bit maybe better at times than somebody else is doing. And try to get them, you know, you try to get a w along the way, you know, and if you don't get it, well, there's a game and in a day or so and try to make up. You know. One of the things we thought in UM seventy two we set goals. I mean, everybody sets goal, Yeah, I want

to win the championship. Everybody says that, right, But for us, it was like we were experienced enough saying let's not lose two games in a row. So then automatically you're gonna have a pretty good record if you adhere to that goal that you don't lose two games in a row, and so you string out and that one in seventy seventy three when we still I think I have the

best one lost record in Southic history, losing fourteen. We lost more games at home than we did on the road, and we didn't lose we we had streaks of win eight, lose one, you know, win six, lose one, win four, lose one, you know that kind of the way the season went along. So we didn't have those big winning streaks like l A did the year before when they want like thirty three in a row or something that they only lost thirteen game. So we did ours a

whole lot of ore. We we accomplished what we accomplished so much differently, you know than that. And that was a talking point in the locker room, Dave, that everyone was kind of saying that we're not gonna lose two, and maybe not in the locker room or just on the plane or the buzzing, just kind of what we went around was, you know, that was one of those things to say that makes sense. So then you lose the game, you say, Okay, we gotta get down to

business this next game. We gotta make sure we you know, we we we close it out. And a nice thing about John hamil Check and Joe Joe White because they were finishing. We had those two guys that could finish

the game for you in a number of different ways. And what you're saying plays into Listen. I spent twenty years with Tommy and he probably told me the story of the days between Game six and Game seven and seventy four so many times I can't I couldn't even count how many times you told me the story and what you're saying. The personality of that team was unaffected by the fact that people don't realize this again, look it up, kids, these were road games. The road team

kept winning in that series. Milwaukee came to Boston in one Game six and they forced a Game seven in their building, and Tommy, it seemed and the personality this team were sort of unfazed by going on the road to try to win. We won three road games in that seven game series. They won two. I think you know they won that. We won the first game in Milwaukee, they won the second one. We come back, We win, the first game in Boston, they win the second one.

We go there, we win, They come here, they win, We go there, we went. So it's like the road made no difference. And I really felt that way back then, the road it was not a factor at all. The only thing we talked about on the road is that who the officials were, because some officials like to stick it to the crown and there for the you know,

for the home team. So they were they're saying, okay, he's not gonna get affected by it, and maybe even leading towards helping U, you know, on the visitor's side. And he had other ones that like, you know, they're listed and they're hearing at all, and maybe they can get affected a little bit. I think buying large referees do a pretty good job. You know, they're pretty even even Stephen about things blowing away. It's not an easy job, that that is for sure. Now they there's another one.

There's another one. Now they've got three of I think they only have one. I'd love to see that. Now you're talking about what people want to watch on TV. That would be interesting. I'm and I'm so glad that they're not calling all that chippy stuff and they're allowing people to play around the basket and they're not anticipating calls. They're not giving the guys jumping into people and all that, because that's just I don't know that, that's just it. Um, it's like a it's a mar on the game. It's

just not real. Doesn't seem fair. You know what I mean is just let him go out and play. And you know he said the greatest athlete. Oh that's another thing. I never had anybody come help pick me up off the floor. And everybody can't get and these are the best athletes in the world. They can't get up off the floor by themself. I don't get that. You know, they need help. And then they'll just wait there like this, Come on, someone come get me. You know, that's just

you know, Tim Duncan used to not do that. Tim Duncan and go down. He get right, he popped right up because he didn't want anybody helping him. I don't like him a lot just for that. You'd like to say Max loses his mind to this day when somebody helps somebody else up and said, listen, if somebody came into your house to steal something, you wouldn't hold the doors over the guy. It's a college thing. It's that whole phoney kind of team and you know, sports teamwork

and all that. It's like having to go shake hands after a game in college. You gotta be kidding me, Why would I want to do that. It's the stupidest thing, you know, but they do it anyway because it looks good, you know, like we have we all like each other. No, we don't. We don't like you. We're just trying to beat you. We don't want to go over and say nice game, nice game, Nice game, nice game. I love hearing that. There are some differences on and on and on.

You know, it's just cultural in a way. It's not so much just about the game and the rules, but it's just cultural. Yeah, no question. Hey, Sean just mentioned a minute ago Tommy UM, and he's also on this list. I know Tommy coached you. I think it was for eight seasons, UM, including those those championships. What's it mean

to you to to be on this all Celtics team with a guy like Tommy Um, who obviously we lost within the last year or so. Um, but just just to be on this fifteen player list with him, what's that mean to you? Dave? Well, first of all, I didn't know I had made to listen to it. We got on this podcast here, So I'm I'm I'm honored and you know, humble that I'm on the list with all these different players, because if you think about it, I don't know, I was trying to think, um, how

many players are on the list. There are players made the list. Think about how many players play for the Celtics from forty for the less seventy five year and to be one of the guys chosen from all those great athletes you know over time, is it's pretty special, you know. Um. So with Tommy, Yeah, you know, I'm glad that he made it because it's you know, I got to vote for the seventy and um did you start? You know, you can go top thirty guys, real simple.

You get down thirty. After maybe fifty guys, they start going, wait a minute here, and I gotta check. I gotta go look at him. I gotta check the staff. How many times did they do this set together when they were in the playoffs and their numbers go up? Did

they go down? You know, there's a lot of factors in terms of how much of an impact somebody had over their career and while they were playing, you know, and then sometimes there's longevity somebody did a really well for a long period of time that you know, as you get to get put weight on a lot of different things, uh factors. But you know, it's uh, it's tough to try to say. You know, it's Bill Um, Bill Sharmon as good as Chris Paul, you know what I mean. It's like, well, how do you do that?

You know what I mean is to guys in different different positions or um, you know, even even with guy like Pete Maravich and and um Stefan Curry, I mean, how do you know what I mean is different. It was a whole different routine, you know, So that was always hard. But then you just got to go back to stats and figure it out, you know, and make

and make a decision. Well, the beauty of this list, Dave, is that we had thousands and thousands of fans, Celtics fans vote for this team, and that accounted for half of the voting. And then we had a voting panel of media members and Celtics historians who accounted for the other half of voting. So all of these different people, thousands and thousands of people had input on this um and that's how we wind up with this list that

includes you. UM, So congratulations on that. I want to ask you one more question before we get out of here.

A lot of people don't realize that you overlapped for a season with Larry Bird. I'm really curious to get your perspective on on what it was like and what the the environment was around when the guy from French Lique wound up in Boston and Donnan Celtics Green and White. What was that first season like with him? The rookies a rookies, a rookie, no matter who they all, right, So the guy comes in and you gotta figure out

what's what's this guy all about? I mean I saw him play a couple of times and looked at actually went and visited, you know, and saw a couple of games in person because I was coaching the year before, So I was that was part of my job, you know, as to go out and see, well what are we gonna do? And um, But when he came in, you knew what what it is is. You knew he was a game er. This guy was a tough guy, had a great mindset, tough, disciplined mindset, and he worked hard.

He didn't take anything for granted. And the guy had some special talent of being able to handle the ball at his size and make decisions quick decisions. Um. Just his his vision and his decision making was superb, all right, and you saw that right away. So you know, all things pretty equal, this guy is going to be a star. This guy is gonna be good. I mean, we didn't go gaga all over him. You know, it's just he's

just he's a rookie. You know, we're trying to teach him and let him understand what our game is all about because it's a ton different. You know, you're playing against every day, you're playing against guys that are the best guys. You know, they played in college, they ever played against the All one team. They're not even playing a lot, but they're still the best guys that you played against in college over your career. UM. So it was um and we had Bill Fitch and he had

a system and everybody kind of adhere to it. Um. I came in in good shape. So I tried to set the pace and saying, okay, this is what and we were gonna be good. We gotta play at a certain pace, you know, we gotta do this. And we were all about a big year of Tommy you know, gotta rung, gotta rung, gotta run, you know. And his thing was that you don't knock a wall down with one blow from a sledgehammer. You got to hit it

a whole bunch of time. Eventually it comes down. And so that was kind of one of the things that I always believed in because I like playing a beat that was me. I loved that. And then Bird fit right in there, you know, and we had a lot of other guys the same way. So it was it was enjoyable. But that I always kid people. People say, did you play with Bird? I said, no, he played with me and so and so I said, he's a rookie. We taught him everything. He knows. His success is only

due to you, right. I'm just it's just kind of fun to do it, you know what I mean with people, you know, because because that's what they dave. You coach Max. I mean what I mean, Max was the guy that that had to be the guy the first time you saw him and you're coaching him that second year. You know what a dream is to work with it, So it must have been a dream to you. How Max is? I mean back then he didn't say much. He was pretty easy going. I mean he ended the rubber band man.

He hit ing me fall down and he's like, you know, he just it was so unique the talents he had because he was so good around the basket, you know what I mean for a for a young player. He was just so because he wasn't afraid. You know, he knew how to do everything, and he was using people when he was a rookie, you know, around the basket. But that poor guy, I mean, he had to go through that entire roster and just the downfall. I mean, we had a bad team, you know, and I remember

we had one guy. His name was Abdullah's is and there's somebody right Don Smith. He's from Iowa. But we acquired him on our long road trip and we cut him on this, so he's one guy never wore a white uniforms. It sounds like something, Jessica. It's funny. Happened a couple of times, right, Sean and the two thousand fifteen. But in that year you could correct me if I'm wrong on this day, if I have the year wrong.

But didn't you end up with Kermitt Washington. Wasn't that the year after the Rudy tom Jonovich thing and he ended up in Boston? I mean, Marvin Barnes was on the team and we have Billy Night, and we traded him and got steak Um and Roby and then we went to another you know. I mean guys were coming in and out. John Y Brown on the team all of a sudden, Maccadoes on the team. He don't want to be there because him and I are doing this for many years. It's like it's just it was just crazy,

you know. But you know, we got out of it, and then things got got scared away. But then the seventies we went. I looked at the stats as seventies, the fan base for the Boston Celtics was about I think one of the Brown's six thousand season ticket holder. All right, when we for the first six years, we got that up to a about thirty twelve and thirteen thousand season ticket all all right, Maybe not season take

it all, but attendance average attendant all right. So we almost doubled the interest in basketball and that first six years of the Celtics that I played on, and then it went down a little bit, you know, because of that, we were very good. And then when Bird came, it popped right back up into you know, an any where

they're starting sellouts. So but that big bill for the interests of the Boston fans and the Celtics happened in the early seventies and that's exactly why we wanted to bring you on here Dave today, So we really appreciate the time. And one more time, congratulations, I'm making a seventy anniverse three All Celtics team. Today's episode is presented

by the Boston Celtics credit card powered by Cardless. With the card, you can earn points on Celtics tickets, rideshare services, restaurant meals and more, plus an opportunity to earn a sign up bonus card issued by First Electronic Bank Member f d I C Offers subject to credit approval. Visit

Cardless dot Com Forward Slash Celtics for more information. That's Cardless dot Com Forward Slash Celtics. Alright, look, I can guarantee you, folks, there is no other NBA team podcast that you can come on and get three of the top seventy five players in NBA history all on the

same episode. Paul, you don't even know this, but before you, our listeners already heard from Bob Couzy, then they heard from Dave Cowen's and now they got the great Paul Pierce on three of the top seventy five players of all time. There aren't many organizations that can do that. So first and foremost appreciate you jumping on. And secondly, congratulations on being selected to the seventy anniversary All Celtics team. Only fifteen players in the history of the organization around

the team. What's that mean to you to be selected? Mass? It's huge honor, just like you know, since I retire, just like you know, all the fruits of my labor, I'm starting to see him now because you don't realize that when you're in the game, you know, and now that I've been retired, I've been inducted to the Hall of Fame, have my jersey retired, and now this one of the top UH Celtic players, NBA players at all time.

And just it's just starting to pay out because, like I said, you don't never see the hard work you

put in while you're in it and until it's all said and done. Now you get to sit back and say, Wow, I really did that and this amazing accomplishment man. And it all started on one day when you were drafted by the team on twenty four years ago. I want to get retrospective here to start out, what is the first memory that you have of being a part of this organization, Like, what's the what goes into your head when I ask you that, it's got to be good

if you're laughing. My first memory is the first time I landed in Boston and Leo Papelle picked me up in this old Cadillac from the airport. I didn't know who he was. Tell everyone who Leo is. Just tell everyone knows Leo Forulfield. He worked for the Celtics. He was scouting. He was like a scout, but he had like he was like a consultant for the Celtics. Know what cell he consulted for a lot of places. Let's just right. And I remember him picking me up and

I was like, who is this guy? He didn't have no Celtic gear on, and it was I just thought it was a random guy picking me up. And it was like and he was the first person picking on this old Cadillac from the airport. Uh. I just always tell this story was so hilarious. Uh. And then car I thought he was like, you know, like the GM or something. I thought it was like at the time, but you know, him picking me up from the airport

and you know, rolling around Boston. Uh. I getting lost at the beginning, the beginning stages of living in Boston. The rotaries, I never it makes no sense, Yeah, the structure of the city. I just remember always getting lost. And you gotta understand when I got drafted. You know, it wasn't the iPhone. You have to buy a navigation and so I remember always just getting lost going to the arena and action. I remember pulling acts for people. Do you know where like the garden is? Like you

know where like the gardens? All right, just stay on this road, like man. The first the first year was tough. How many were you late to any games now? I was always left extra early because I knew I was like Man, I knew I would get lost and have to ask for directions. Speaking of Leo, by the way, I remember at the old facility out in wall Fan. Yeah, he used I used to see him walking around with it with his cut off sleeves. Oh, the good old days back in Wafan, Man that they gotta they got

a palace that they're practicing in now, Man, Walt Fan was different all new times, New times. That was different. Um. But yeah, let's let's talk about a couple of your teammates, because a couple of teammates made this list with you of the fifteen greatest Celtics of all time. Ag is on this list with you, Ray Allen is on this list with you. All of the fans. There were sixty plus votes that came in for this, so the numbers have spoken that they wanted you three on the team together.

We've all heard about you know why you guys clicked down the court and how the whole thing started back in two thousand seven. But behind closed doors, that's where I want to go for a minute, in particularly to

all three of your work ethics. I'm really curious how, because you all three of you had legendary work ethics behind closed doors, how did you guys kind of motivate each other with those and how what was your reaction the first time you saw like Ray go through his routine for shooting after practice and KG just being a maniac during and after practice. Man, you know what, I always used to get to the gym early, right, and this is like and so I would always be the

first one. So when Kevin and Ray came, you know, I'm thinking I'm always the first one. Then I go in there and raising there, and then Kevin's in there. So I feel like over the course of the year, it was a competition between us who can get to the gym first? Who can It was crazy because like if we have practice at like ten o'clock, uh, you know, Ray or Kevin and I said, we'll be in there

like seven thirty eight am. And it was just like, you know, whether it be lifting weights or getting shots up. And you know, the good thing is I was inspired by them because I watch some a raised routine and I start doing some of the drills he did, you know, And I watched Kevin's routine and then you know, he posted up, so I do some of those drills and we just I think we just motively motivated each other and made each other better. We pushed each other, uh,

and we just fed off of that man. Then next thing, you know, the younger players they're coming in early now, and then it was just like it's just we just fed off each other man, And it was just great to see because before they came, I was like the only one that to get there first all the time. And you know, you try to create this type of culture, but you know it's tough, uh when you have so many young players still learning who they are in the NBA,

still trying to figure it out. And when you get other veterans and they also see these other veterans who are who they look up to, it made it so much easier. And it was just it was awesome because now you got damn there were almost having team practice at eight o'clock now because now everybody's there early. It was crazy. We we never got to see like the before practice stuff. We were coming after the practice and you and KG were usually you got your working after,

but it was relatively brief. Ray would be out there for like thirty forty five minutes going through a shooting dells after pract this, So for in the media perspective, it was real interesting just to be able to see how meticulous he was with that after practice and then

now knowing that he was in there that early before practice too. It's no mistake that he was one of the greatest shooters of all time. I do want to ask you about Ray though, Um, because I don't know if a ton of people out there expected him to wind up on this fifteen greatest Players of all time on the Celtics list. Um, what's your reaction to the fans and our media panel choosing Ray to be as a part of this fifteen player list. Oh, they got it right. And I'll say this one thing about Ray.

Ray is probably the clutchest player off ever. Like it just felt so good because you know, I was always in a position to take the big shots, make or miss. To have that guy on your team who took that type of pressure off you, who would make big shots and come through down the stretch. And I think that's the one thing that's underrated about raised game that's not talked about enough, is how clutch. He was, you know, we know him for being a he played shooter. I mean,

I guess we talked about it. You've seen the shot he made when he was in Miami. Yeah, but uh, you know, for us, he made so many game winners and it's just not talked about enough. How how great he was down the stretch. Well, you guys had three of them, right like you used to make the big shots. You and ag used to run that high pick and roll final ten seconds like there was no pop in that. And then if you're able to kick to raid too, that's good good luck to the other team. That's what

we used to call pick your poison danger. Unlike a

lot of guys. Man, I'm trying to think of how many hundreds of times we talked after games, before games play. But he's talking about the lineage, which is what we're talking about now. By the way, that's Paul's dog barking in the background. We just gotta let everyone know who's listening. This is I mean, listen, you've got four kids. Does that work with the kids too? Hey? Shut up? Not that video game and never it never seems to work. I'm running a lot of lessons about fatherhood being on

this car. Yeah, so theme all in because none of

them will apply because you're getting different than our kids. You know, we're talking to Bob Cruzy and we're talking to Dave Cowens, and we're trying to connect somehow the lineage, which is so hard to do. But a lot of players walk into this and it is all new to them. But you were unique in that. It wasn't because of where you grew up. You knew full well about the Celtics because you grew up watching those games, albeit from the other side. Yeah. Absolutely, man, that's what got me

in the basketball. You know, although I was a Laker fan, but who couldn't watch Lakers and Celtics. I mean, Magic Bird, I mean all the legendary players to leave. I mean it was just like you couldn't wait for those games to come on, whether it be regular season, whether they be finals. Uh, it just it was just such a joy to watch basketball at his best. Because you're talking about two generational talents at the time, with Magic and Larry Bird. It was just like, man, how could you

not watch that? And you know, me growing up a Laker fan and I tell the story and it's ironic growing up as a Laker fan and then being drafted as a Celtic. Uh, you know, I didn't quite understand the history at the time. I knew all the Laker history growing up in it. But then when I got to Boston, I knew about five Couzy, Bill Russell read all back. You knew these names, and you knew the championships.

But then when I got there, it was just like to actually see it, like, oh my goodness, they go rare? Is that Rare? Or are back right there smoking a cigar? Is that Bill Russell, I'm having lunch with Bill Russell? Is that Couzy on the sideline? Is that Tommy Hin? It was just like, you know, just the names, the legendary names that you hear about and you see the highlights. Just to actually see them right there, I was like,

oh my god. It was just like a basketball dream, you know, as a historian of the game, to see people who are who are legend in the flesh that you just heard so much about. It was just like and and that's the one thing that I don't think these kids, they don't soak up the history of the game no more. They ain't. They're not students of the game. You know, I love that part of it, you know,

going back watching old games and studying it. Uh. Now, you know, the kids just watch whatever they catch on Instagram if they catch a Jordan highlight or a Larry seconds long. You know, I actually like was watching the games, reading about them, checking out the articles. Man. It was just like because you know, it wasn't YouTube back there,

so I couldn't like. But you know, whenever you get a chance to watch an old game that came on TV or read the articles you've read, and it was a lot of reading about these guys and you know, hearing the coming Tators talk about you know, the history. It was just it was amazing, man, you know, and I just wish more of the younger guys would understand the his three while we all remember where we were

the first time we met Lee over him. You mentioned it, did you say, lunch with Bill Russell? Yeah? Man, I had lunch with Bill, had dinner. That was amazed. I was young too. I think I was like in my third year and it was just like I remember we went to the Capitol Gril. We had dinner at the Capitol Grill. Man, I was I was like, I was so intimidated because I'm trying to figure out what I'm

gonna saying, what I'm gonna talk to him about. And it's just I just remember the nervousness, like, man, this is Bill. I'm about to have dinner with Bill Russell. This is crazy. And uh, you know we just formed the friendship. And he because he would always come to the practices. You know, I'll sit on the sideline and hill, you know, he'll critique my game. Man. And you know, these kids they don't like to hear. They don't like to hear it no more, they don't like to hear

that game, like, you're not doing this right. Whenever he was like, Paul, you need to work on this, I was just like I soaked it up. I wanted people to tell me what I needed. You know, I wanted what I was doing wrong, and he was, you know, he was honest about it. Him and Red Arbe was always honest about that every time I talked to him and I and I love that and I loved it.

What did the experience now my first year coming back from Minnesota and I'm with you guys, and there's two thousand two and out of nowhere after six years of missing the playoffs. I talked about this team a lot because of how blase some fans have become about getting to the conference finals. But in two thousand two, I

try to explain to people what that environment was like when that team, when you beat Philly in that decisive game, What that what the what TV garden was like that night beating Detroit and getting to the conference finals here in that series against the Nets? Did that wet your appetite? Was that in your memory for the three or four years that followed, with all the uncertainty as to what it could be like, what it was when the Celtics

were the Celtics and what it could be again? Absolutely, because that was, like, you know, the crazy part about that was my first time in the playoffs and then to go that far and to see that environment and to be like one or two games away from making the finals. I was just like, wow, you know that that we called it it was the garden, but it was the jungle. We called it the jungle, and I had never seen anything. I've never seen the garden like that.

It just seemed like every round we went, it got better and better and louder, and it was just like, whoa, this is what I used to see on TV. You know, fans waving the towns loud. You can hear them chatting from the from the locker room, and it was just like we made it. And then after that, you know,

we lost second round. But like you said, that was just a taste of like, wow, if we ever, you know, go this deep in the playoffs and you can't take it for granted because you can go so far and then you can be like, all right, well, next year we'll be in the finals. For next year we'll be back in the in the conference finals. Can't never take it for granted. And so it was just a taste.

Shut up, Sausa. You couldn't count the crowd bending. You can't do now when I hear you talk about the Celtics now and I I I can't stand all of us, even though we don't want to be we tend to be these kids today and they're watching highlights on Instagram or whatever it is, and the things that we always wanted to be more like the way it was back when we were doing whatever it is we were doing.

But one of the elements that I think has become a lost ambition is the notion of doing what you did and being with one team as opposed to guys still want to win and it's still pursuing championships. But the concept of connecting yourself and your brand and your game and your career to one city and one team is something that mattered to you. Oh, absolutely, because that's what I grew up watching. You know, I'm watching these guys.

You know, like I said, magic Bird, these guys played for one team and and the golf themselves and become that city and become that team. You know, of course a year and it was just like now, I feel like it's all about a business. You know, everybody wants to play with their friends and you know, being whatever type of weather or be close to home. You know, even though I hated Boston, it was just like, once I was there, I wanted to be there and that

was it. I never wanted to get traded. I never wanted to leave, and uh, you know that all gets lost, that's all that's a that's days of the past. And I think we saw that. I think Lebron spearheaded this truthfully. You know, once you've see how you know, But the thing is they're taking their destiny their own hands. And I get it, and I understand it's a business, but it's hard to connect with that player, you know, long term, you know, like people say Paul connected to him, connected

with Boston. Now, it's like when guys have great careers, you're actually yourself. Like Kevin Durant for instance, great career Oklahoma City, go to the state now Brooklyn, But like, where do you retire his jersey? What makes the most sense? Yeah, he won a championship there, but does he get one in Oklahoma too, where it was m v P. You

feel what I'm saying. Now, you're gonna be having players get their jersey retired in multiple cities and people people boo, right, I mean it's it's so sad, like a Westbrook goes back to Okay. See in the Duranka man, could you ever imagine the idea of you were KG walking back into the garden and not getting the you know, the reception in the love And that's one of the by products. It's unfortunate. I think it further creates a divide between

fans and players that doesn't necessarily have to be there. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, you get you forget that these players, you know, they put their blessed, sweat and tears into these organizations, but you know, and and they can only do so much that they leave and you come back and get booed. I mean, it's unfortunate, but that's the way, that's what

the way it is now. But here's one of the things about life is that everything, and I mean everything from style to what we're talking about here, everything is cyclical, right, So Lebron might have broken what it was prior to that, but then someone's gonna come and who knows, maybe it's someone in this generation like who maybe it's Jayson Tatum with the Celtics or Zion Williamson with the Pelicans. Someone else is going to break it back in the other direction, right,

So what it used to be so everything cyclical. Will be really interested to see what winds up happening on that front. But Paul, Uh, we appreciate you coming in and wrapping up this star studded podcast. I mean, Kuzy Cowens and Pierce no on Nels in the NBA is doing that. That's awesome, So thank you for jumping on. Thank You's a great name to this team. I appreciate it. I thank you guys, and uh you know, always gonna bleed green baby, thank you for watching you from the Raptors.

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