Welcome to Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbas. Our guest in this edition is retired US Air Force Colonel Howard Hill. He is a Vietnam veteran and spent well over five years in captivity as a prisoner of war after being shot down in December of nineteen sixty seven. He was also the recipient of two Silver Stars, among many other awards. And Colonel, thank you very much for your time today. We appreciate it to be here. Where were you born
and raised there? But born in Olkfesso, Texas. And my dad was about when I was about five. Rather than my dad had went in the Air Force. He'd actually been in the US Army for two years prior to thirty nine forty one. He got up about June forty one, I believe was he got drafted again, and I think it was April of forty four, maybe that's when he got sent over to France. But here he was twenty eight years old, married a kid, one kid, and went on
the way and he got drafted. You know, it already served, you know, because they you know, basically had sixteen million men that served during World War Two. So in our population for the US was only about one hundred and forty million, and that was just the men I'm talking about, not the total population that so we had a large number of our people, you know, our men, able bodied men that were called to serve,
whether they liked it or not. You mentioned his service. Did that influence your decision to want to be in the Air Force and go to the academy? I think so yes. I mean I was around it, and then he was an Air Force recruiter when I was in tenth and eleventh grade, and so that first Park Mantris too, And of course the Air Force Academy was very new then, and so I applied for that and it was accepted in a class of sixty five. We were the seventh graduating class from the
Air Force Academy. How did those four years change you or prepare you I should today? Well, I mean I think there was a lot of good character building in there, and the physical to metal, there's a lot of benefits to it. Of course, you know, with anything else, it's got its positive and maybe not so positive aspects, but overall, I mean I think the experience. Of course I don't have anything compared to because I didn't do anything else. Didn go to savean college, but still I think
it was very worthwhile. So, as you mentioned, you were commissioned in nineteen sixty five, at this point that Vietnam War was already underway. Where did you go after commissioning Ice in flight school? YEAP pilot training in Del Rio, Texas, off on an Air Force base, and then after that
I went to two months of training for the F four. It was Davis Montin Air Force Base in air Tucson, and then that after that, normally you would go to six months of training for the it's called URTU Replacement Training Unit, and that would have been at George Air Force Base in California. However, the personnel system back then, I don't know if it's got any better. I used to refer to as like a spickett. It was either
full on or full off. And so while I was in pilot training, two days before graduation, they canceled all our assignments, and three quarters of is throughout the whole Air Training Command ended up in backseat force or back seat r force because the Air Force and all this wisdom decided they need two pilots in the F four and the WRECKI version in the air for even though the Navy had been operating the F four out in the fleet since nineteen sixty two
with the radar intercept officer in the back seat and the Rio didn't have stick and throttles, but the Air Force when they bought him, said we had to have stick and throttles. Well, part of it was the Air Force had been trying to get pilot authorizations for many years from Congress, but Congress wouldn't allow because Congress claimed that the Air Force had all of these pilot sitting staff positions, and the Air Force, that's our reserve. I heard the
figure thirty thousand they had sitting in all these non flying jobs. So what happened to the Air Force? Though? When they bought the Air Force said we have to have sticking throttles for safety purposes. So McDonald later McDonald Douglas is they're pushing that, pumping out and F four and RF four a day. As the more been kicked off Pretteston, the Air Force said, we're
running out of pilots, so fine checked. They opened up two more pilot training bases and after a couple of years they said, hey, maybe we don't need pilots in the backseat. Sure enough, they didn't need polasts anymore, so it was just deployed to get more pilots Sluss. So that's how I ended up in the backseat the F four. But I was sent here to Eggland instead of going six months to Georgia Air Force Base in California. I was sent here to England to the thirty third for six weeks of training,
and then we were pipeline to Vietnam. And then after I've been here a month, all of a sudden, they came in one day and said, we don't need you anymore. Have to stay here, I have to go to Seymour Johnson up in North Carolina. And so I got to stay here. And as it said, I think it was the old Spickett thing. They had it full on when they places over there and need them pretty soon, they're drowning them so full off. And so that's how I got
to stay here, and the one managed to it. I'd met my wife here this fourth thank Christmas, so by being able to stay here, I was able to cord HER's you know, she's still with me after fifty five years. So when were you deployed to Vietnam. And what was your assignment
there. Well, our squadron deployed the May twenty fifth, nineteen sixty seven, and we ferried the first four d's over We took eighteen of them and the theater, and we first moved to Hickam Air Force Base in Hawaii, spent the night in Anderson Air Force Base, Guam, and then the third day we flew to Uban Royal Tire Base at Uban Rachitani, Thailand, and that's where we're stationed a tack Fighter wing. And later they put us in
the five to fifty fifth Tach Fighter Squadron Triple Nickel. And so our mission was basically to fly missions over Lawis and North Vietnam. We weren't allowed to fly operational missions over South Vietnam. We could over fly South Vietnam, but no operational missions. The rules of engagement didn't allow us to actually operate in South Vietnam. Crazy war. You know, I always tell people, if you want to find out how not to run a war, study Vietnam.
This should be a case, say study in all the military study departments. Well, let's move to October of nineteen sixty seven. On October twenty fourth to be precise. So you let an attack on an enemy airfield and we're awarded a silver star for that action. So tell me a little bit about that. Fukian. Yeah, Fukian was to make twenty one base. It's a little bit northwest of Hanoi. Their their thud Ridge, Bob thud Ridge,
and we were the lead fight of the f fours. There were two flights fours and I think three or four flights of one O five's And as we were coming in, we had an undercast and uh but just for some reason, UH, the hap to be favorably clear right there over the airfield, so we were able to come in and uh and uh drop our bombs in each each everybody had their own area they supposed to bomb me the runways for batments or whatever. And so we came off target. And the thing
is the lead I still remember I lead. Uh the e c After we came off target, then uh he started to head up the thud Ridge because thud Ridge was a ridge that ran from north to Hanoi. Uh up along basically ran west northwest and you could use it for train masking. And he stayed down low. So anyway, when he he pulled up it, he pulled into the clouds, and which before we went into the cloud, I saw a couple of SAMs going off and I'm screaming at him, get down
below. This hit the clause. I can't see the SAMs. So we fortunately stayed below, got down below. The was the deck there and salms weren't coming for us. But the SAMs you could outmaneuver them if you saw them. But they were like these tell them, you know, white telephone poles. They're about that size. But if you saw one, you could out maneuver it. And so I just didn't want to, you know, everything going on, I didn't want to be up in the clouds and have
one get us. And so but yeah, we did very fortunate we were able to hit it and got it first time. I think that food can have been hit and the ward been going on for the air war being gone on for two and a half years. The Silver Star also states how you expertly evaded missiles and anti aircraft fire and also enemy planes. So is that instinct? Is that reacting? How is that? No? I mean no,
I don't remember seeing any aircraft up there. If we did as I said, I just saw the SAMs and triple A, but no, I mean it was actually the AC was flying. You know, as a GiB. Your job with a lot of it was clearing operating systems in the back seat. But your job's clearing to the rear there and stuff like that. So I wasn't actually operating the airplane except just some systems in the back,
you know. So, but I don't know if you call it instinct, you know, you go in and you just hope, you know, especially if they're firing, that they miss. All right, let's move to December. Then December sixteenth of nineteen sixty seven, you were on another mission, and that's obviously the day you were shot down. Take me through what happened. Well, our mission that day was was called mid CAP. The megs of course the enemy airplanes, and CAP was the cover and protection and we're
providing protecting the strike force from enemy fighters. As we were inbound, the target was in the Hanoi area's capital and as we approached, coming in from the east from the waterside, Number three thought he saw something off our right, and so we broke off and we went head up there and there's a northeast railroad that ran from Hanoi up to China, and there was an airfield called cap which was about forty miles northeast of Hanoi east northeast or north northeast,
and so that's where we were heading in that direction. And all of a sudden, I looked down and there were four weeks seventeen's and what they call trail formation right behind each other, and darn, they didn't come right underneath us, about five five hundred feet beneath us, and and somebody somebody keyed the mic says we got a couple of visitors or something like that,
and I just keeped the mics said, didn't make that four. And it turned out we ended up as I said, it was a perpendicular crossing right, but he was about five hundred feet low. And they then when they we came out, uh, they came out lead broke into him, and we got two and three and four were back there trailing behind us about one thousand feet and I saw two mixed seventeens coming in there five and I called him and then they broke into them, and that's the last we saw them.
So we were engaging these two seventeens, and it said. My job in the back seater was mainly clearing. So I was going from one side to the other check behind us, and it was amazing. Twice when I came, I was swiveling around, I saw Mike seventeens up there in the windscreen. I don't know how we missed him. Then my front seater he was had been an Astern Korea credited with nine kills the only time I ever
flew with him, and I guess he uh. He was his first mission over Northfield, what they called Route Pack six, and I was the I had seventy counters over North Vietnam, seventy missions over North Vietnam. So I was the old guy, and that's the pattern. They used new guy with one that's more experienced. So I was his backseater, and darn if I
didn't hear him. All of a sudden, I heard the gun firing, because we carried an external gun that F four D didn't have an internal and I hear the gun firing, and I said his name was Jim Lowe, Major Jim low And I said, mister low did you fire the gun? He said yes, And I said, sir, did you lead clear you. He said no, and I said, sir, you know, you know, when you're on the wing, your job is to be watching lead and staying with him and covering him, and your job is not to be
unless lead clears you to be firing. Was one thing. You could lee could fly into the bullets, or you could actually had, you know, run into lead or something. You know, so it's dangerous. So anyway, I just said, sir, you're not to call fire from the wing unless lead clears you. And darn I For about another minute and a half or two later, I hear the again, same thing, and I said, Ma, sorre low, you're not a loud You're not supposed fire the
gun unless you're cleared by lead. He didn't say anything, but we finally it turned out. Then our lead, our meigs broke off and they landed up at the airfield, and then lead our flight lead took us around the airfield. I was joking that he was even their gunners a little practice, and I don't know why they we had stuff going off. They had thirty seven to fifty seven to eighty five millimeter. You could tell by the color of smoke what type of weapons they were, and I mean they were.
They had it all around us, and I don't know how they missed us, but we circled and finally they know, I guess, watched them land and then we started degressing. And by then the strike force and number three
and four had already made it out. And I didn't realize at the time, but they there was a Make twenty one sitting at twenty three thousand feet and that was the standard practice that the Soviets used, and of course they taught to Vietnameesis too, and their brothers as they called the brothers of the Socialist camp, all the other communist countries, and so this I was up there visually directing, and as soon as we were egressing and the are the
to makes it all landed, he just nodes it over. When after burner about two miles away, he holds off and he's seeking missile right up our number two exhausted and blew the tail off the aircraft. And so, as I used to say, the air Force, great air force, air force is a great airplane, but not so good in two pieces. So and
it turned out a little bit of irony. And the one fact that I used to say, my front Cedar had been an Ason Korea, And it turned out that the guy flying the MiG and the mid seventeens were not North Vietnamese. The North Koreans were actually operating Makes seventeens and Make twenty one out of Carepa Airfield in sixty seven and sixty eight. And I had a man who checked the He was able to get the North Vietnamese air activity records and
he checked in the North Vietnamese didn't have an aircraft up that day. So he agrees with me that it was the North Koreans flying that day. And so the guy that got us, I heard the intel folks told me after he broke off and went up land in China and got some fuel, had a bite dat came back be ready for the afternoon missions, you know. And so but anyway, needless to say, I'm coming down the airplane and the I just got a quick call off on what's called guard frequency, emergency
frequency, just saying we've been hit. We had to get out. And I looked down timeter and it was eighty five hundred eight thousand, that quick and that quickly, and anytime you're below ten thousand feet uncontrolled, your altimeter has a lag in it, so you don't know what you're out to do, so the recommendation as you punch. So I just said I'm getting out in my front seat, said you are, and I was gone, and then he came out behind me, and I of coursely got a good shoot.
And it turned out there was a Martin Baker's seat that they had, and I'm glad it worked the way it did, you know, because and I found out later one of the other guys who was up there with me melt Paula Keith plowing that four seas He was another back seater. He was over at Farmborough here at the air show in the England about five six years ago, and he was talking to the Martin Baker folks and they told him
that the seats put out about twenty two to twenty four g's. Back then they were like a big like shotgunshell, artillery shell to kick you out instead of the rocket. So but anyway, they tell everybody he's better take those g's and riding in the airplane, the gis you take there. So we anyway, I'm coming down the chute and front seaters, I can see him down beneath me. He's drifting off some low hills and I'm going down what I think is the biggest field all in the North Vietnam. That's retired US
Air Force Colonel Howard Hill. When we come back, Colonel Hill tells us about his capture and abuse at the hands of the North Vietnamese. I'm Greg Corumbus and this is Terans Chronicles. This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbas our guest this weeks retired US Air Force colonel, Vietnam veteran and former prisoner of war Howard Hill. Just before the break, Colonel Hill recounted being shot down in December nineteen sixty seven. He now picks up the story with his
capture and what happened next. I see a man running down the dirt road that seems about a mile away with a rifle, and I thought, we okay, when I land, I've got to get it out of this stuff and try and find cover. But as I stood up and now, in the anytime you do parachute training, they have what they call it five points of contact. Your heels, your calves, your thigh, your size. I can't remember what the fizzle one is, but anyway, the way of
landing is supposed to lessen the jolt when he hit the ground. Well, they also have what they call the sixth point of landing, which is your butt. So I land on my six point of contact. So anyway, when I stood up standing about ten feet in front of me were two young guys about i'd say about twenty or early twenties, and they were dressed in the shout fifth fifth helmets and they had to baness and their rifle, and
they looked down their sights at me, and so I very quickly. We had a survival radio that you had a little tube on it so you didn't have to you could actually speak into the tube. So I pulled out the antenna, turned it on real quick, and just just in the blind said and I call signed. That day was Olds. We were in Old an Old's flight. We were number two, so I just said old two back seaters captured because I didn't want trying to come in and you know, looking
for me, but I don't. As far as I know, nobody heard it. It was sort of lying the site and we were down with hills around us. So but anyway, I was taken in. They came in stripped my gear off me. They didn't know how to work the buckles they took. I had two hunting diyes. They were using those to cut the straps, and I kept thinking they were gonna stab me with them the way
they were doing it. And we happen to have two little flotation devices, one under water wings in case you went down in water, and you could pull this little lanyard and it's activated CO two cartridge and inflate them. And so one of them pulled that thing, and the thing inflated, and of course I'm standing with my hands up, and when it did, he's taking the knife and he's stabbing it, and I'm thinking, I'm saying, hey,
taking ease, you're gonna stab me. But anyway, they finally took my stuff off me, and they tied me up behind me back and took me down the road to a little place I just called it like it just a sort of a little thatched bamboo type shelter with a thatched roof, and it actually had sort of a bed level or something about three feet up you could sit on. And that's where they just had me. They take away
my flight suit and my boots and you know, everything else. And they came back and gave me a fly suit and the boots with any laces. They tied me back up. About four hours later, they got my front seater and when they brought him in though they didn't, he just had his
white skivvies and white T shirt, and it turned out I had. When I was waiting for him, I did hear some force come back and there, because hear him strafen in the areas, and I was just thinking, I hope they don't kill anybody, Because they killed anybody, these people are gonna be mad, they'll be pissed, and they'll take it out on me.
But after a while they left, and then I did hear some gunfire exchange, and I think I think it was my front seater because later when they were marched just along, they had me in front and they took us past this little hamlet that had a gate that was open. There's women and children there, and you know, and my front seaters behind us behind me, and he's in his T shirt and skivvies, and you know that's back. We're pretty modest back then, and so I thought that that was not
that good for him to be exposed like this. So I stopped and I'm sitting there and I'm saying going like this and saying, give me back his flight get back his flight suit. In the garden behind me, he's got a be in it and he's just poking me gently with it. Fortunately he didn't pierced anything trying to get me to move. And finally this other one of them came up and said him, shoot, you know, shoot, So it made sense to me that's why he didn't have his flight suit.
So anyway, they took us to a village and they had us sitting separately. They didn't want us talk or anything, sitting separately, and they had people in a circle and everything, and they had Sart sitting in his style, and they woulted to have our heads down. Well I wasn't doing it. So I was standing there and all of a sudden, this guy, this is an old man, came behind me and he fipted me really hard on the back of the head. And boy, when he did, the
crowd loved it. I was sitting there and I thought, boy, if I could get loose you you regret doing that, you know. But anyway, and we'll say another story before that before they got my front ceedar, they had taken me down a trail and had me sitting in this trail there and Surrey Indian style, and they had the people keeping the militia folks were keeping the crowds away because as I told you when back when these two guys
with the young bucks with the rifles. Another reason I decided to render was because there was another forty or fifty natives locals came charging out of the woods about fifty yards off to my left. So doing the math very quickly, and even though I couldn't come up with a good Hollywood escape, so that's why I figured a better surrender. But anyway, the militia guys were keeping the crowds away. But while I was sitting there on this path, there
was one young guy that had circled around. He's off in the brush there and he's over there and he's he's waving his fist at me and everything like that. And unfortunately, when I went to fival school, they did tell me my arrogance might get me in trouble because they said I was haughty. And so I'm sitting there and this guy making faces and waving his fist at
me and everything. So I just made faces back. And next day, I know, the guy's waving a machete and I just you know, and next then all of a sudden, he comes charging out of the brush, and unfortunately the milician guy saw him and stopped him. So I thought, maybe I better toned down by, you know, turning this down a little bit, you know, because you know, here I was vastly outnumbering and
I'm at the mercy of the militia guys, you know. So anyway, they brought in my front seater, and then they took us those little village and they did put us in a little building for a little bit after it got dark, and they brought in a cup of a small cup of water and a little uh piece, some baguette, and some orange powder with some there's sugar is sort of a it's a sort of a brownish color, but very coarse, not fine crystals. It was big crystals. And so I
eat the sugar. I couldn't eat that powder. It turned out there's ground pumpkin, I think, But anyway, I had that, and then after a little bit some other guys came along, those army guys and they came in blindfolders, tied us up even tighter, and then we stepped out of this little building we're in. The thing wasn't much bigger than about fifteen feet by about eight feet the inside of it, and when we stepped out, it was much cooler out there. He tails outside and said them blindfolded.
All of a sudden, somebody with a mega horn starts bellers out something and then, oh boy, I could tell there was a big crowd there, and we were sort of then being kicked and punched, and some I could hear. This woman came to yelled in my face and slapped me really hard. The crowd loved it, you know, and I was just They finally threw me in the jeep on top of it. My friend's seedar was there,
and I got thrown in on top of him. I was just glad to get out of their place, you know, couldn't see what was going on, but obviously wouldn't have friend the environment. And then he took us down, and they lose down and Chopper and took us into Hannoi that night. So that was my first introduction. And then he took us to what we called Hanoi Hilton and Wallow. Why don't we come back? Colonel Howard Hill tells us about life and torture inside the Hanoi Hilton. I'm Greg Corumbus
and this is Veterans Chronicles. This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbas. Our guest this week is retired US Air Force Colonel, Vietnam veteran and former prisoner of war Howard Hill. Colonel Hill just shared the story of his capture and mistreatment at the hands of the North Vietnamese. He now explains what happened once he got to the infamous Hanoi Hilton. Well, for Walla has been alone, but then they came in pretty soon they won stuff and I'm taking
the name right cera lumber date of birth. And so then after a little bit they came in. They started using ropes to ties up, tie me up, and then that went on for uh only to the night. And you know, they tied you up and and I remember being kicked a few times too in there and everything. And then finally daybreak came and they finally broke it off, and then they came back that afternoon we started again, and uh, it's just the first couple of days. You know, they're
trying to get military information out of you. I always say military information is perishable, so they got to get it quickly if they can. So you want to avoid providing any military information. And then if you do provide anything, you want to lie to them. They call it cover stories at survival school. But but the thing is, they had a little bench about this how you Saturday, and they had licensed three guys and they're peppering with questions.
So if you tried to they, you know, lied to them, they might come back and ask you the same question a little later, and then they're comparing notes. The line is not easy. It you got to remember it. And so that's why you know, they were saying about honesty is the best final policy. You don't meddle up your brain with stuff, So the best thing to do is just be honest, you know, and accept in that situation. Yeah, well, yeah, you don't want to
reveal anything. But it said the after morning when they left, they left me a loan, So I just wanted them to called in a corner and went to sleep till afternoon, came out and start again. We went in the night and then they next day. Then they finally moved me to a room. And then after that, the only things they usually wanted was for
propaganda purposes. They might ask you sometime, like they had another interrogation where they wanted to know all the frequencies for our radars and stuff like that. I don't know. I told them, I just turned it on. I'd read the checklist and turned it on and off and see what happens. And I don't know all the technical details they wanted, you know, and stuff like that. So explain what you mean by the ropes they had these.
It's actually these nylon straps that we had in our when we seats. When we sat on the seats, we were actually sitting on sort of container. It was like a container about I guess about two feet by two feet or so, and it contains things like the rope in there in case you went down in the forest. The jungles over there. You could be one hundred feet above the ground if you got hung up in the trees, or one hundred and fifty feet. So we used to carry this three quarter inch nylon
rope. They had three thousand pound test straight and I recognize that's what they were using. To ties up up with and they had me trussed up, and you know, they let it out Adolf every soften, but they had me trussed up at one point. It was really weird. I've seen pictures some guys had it where they had their legs out and they get there, hit them all the way down their hands and everything like that. Well, I mean, I think I made a mistake. I sort of met my
legs. Next thing, I know, they had my legs all pushed up and they actually had me with my head between my legs there. And I used to say to people, I'm you know, I couldn't kiss my own bottom. You know, I'm not second double Joindred or anything like that.
But it's amazing. And you could hear things snapping popping inside and everything, and it really was very surreal experience in many respects U going through that, and then of course I release service SOLVET and I guess for circulation, and then I want to ask you questions and touts you up a little bit and
then back again. You know, if you didn't like what you were, you know, saying, as I said, you gotta be careful because if you told them something and then they asked you again, and and they wanted things like targets. I had no idea, you know what future targets, you know, And you know they didn't like what you were saying. They just start put you on the preser. Sure again, see if they you know, they can break you more. And uh so a lot of what
they knew. Of course, I was the first lieutenant when I was shot down, so I can tell them, hey, I'm just the first lieutenant. I don't know anything. And I use the same in their military, you know. And so anyway, it's you know, but of course I don't know. You're all lone, so you don't know what's happening to somebody else whatever, you know, And but it's you know, it's and and of course then when they had you after that, it's it's for propaganda purposes.
They want you to either write or read or record a and it wore things like that, uh whanted you, you know, say something against what they call the People's Liberation Armed Forces we call them viatcom And and it depends on your interrogators. Some of them were more ruthless than others. Some of them, you know, you'd ask you, what do you think of the people's liberation on forces. And if you didn't pair it back what they said.
Next thing, you know, you're getting knocked off the stool and beating up, and you're there loan and you know what you call them quizzes with the interrogations and everybody else locked up. You got a guarden standing outside the room. So you know, it's it's hard on the ego to just sit there and take it. But you know you can always sit there. Okay, you put up a five, you're gonna end up being worse offt for
it. So you just got to resist best you can. Did they ever try to tell you lies to get you to talk like things had gone allegedly very badly for the American? Oh? Sure sure. In fact, what was funny? Air Force times back in about I've been March April sixty seven had a Q cartoon. It showed pilots two airplanes going down and two pilots and shoots and one of them saying to the other, well hand oil claim
for in the Air Force? Omit one? So yeah, they they they used to have a radio broadcast as Radio Hanoi, and uh, the routine was they woke up in the morning and you either got into your we had a five about five gallon bucket bathroom purposes in the room. You got to empty that or somebody empty it and usually get out to do a quick bath a few minutes. That was only during the week. On Sundays, you
didn't get that, uh you know, didn't get any bath. And then uh you had a new noon meal and then a siesta, and then an evening meal and then at night and these play radio Hanoi. Uh there during just started siesta and also just for you, uh when you woke up in the morning, they played it also. So yeah, they used to talk about uh, I mean they were they defeated the US Army four times over. They destroyed more aircraft than the US is ever produced in its history.
Uh you know, they they they always uh you know, uh, I guess maybe their own people believed it. But of course, as I always remember that cartoon about hand acclaim four in the Air Force will admit one. So we may have been guilty in some respects too. But yeah, they and and of course they I will tell you too. They they they would talk about that. They make say things like you you could go home.
I had one interrogator one time saying that threatening me, tell me that they could kill me or even hurt me very badly, is the way you put it. I've always remember that they we can kill you or even hurt you very badly. So I'm thinking, well, I don't know if you killed me. But it turned out the guy who's flying with my front seater after i'd been there, uh, he took an early release. And we've been there about seven and a half months, and I got called to a quiz
and they announced it on the radio. Hannoi the names, and I'm sitting there's a well, jeez, that's the guy's flying with only time I flew with him. But they had three sets of documents and they verbade him one of them for each and different names on them, different handwriting styles, but each one was there was confessional war crimes and a letter to Ho Chi Minh, the president of North Vietnam, requesting amnesty. And they were identical.
And I've talked to some people and they gave me and I could take them back to my room. I took him just to show my roommate the guy's room with he was another four back seater. After about a month. We got paired up and he got shut down the day after I did. But it turned out that they also gave me pen and a little ink, bottle of ink and a little pen. They said, you know, for me to write everything. But I took it all back to the room, just
let my roommate see it. And after a few days it kept coming by, and when I wouldn't do anything, they went in and took him back. But I'm convinced authentic. I've talked to other people who said that they were offered the same thing and they were shown that, you know, documents the same thing. You know, say that. So my thought, my thought is is that the people that went home early, except for one who was ordered out and Navy seamen. He was ordered out by the senior ranking
officer. But the others, uh, they violate the code of conduct which said that we will not accept parle or special favors. And I'm convinced also that those documents were authentic. And I'm and so that's what I think that in order to get out, they you know, and maybe there were serception that I don't know, but I just know for those three I did see, documents had their names on and signatures, and I didn't see him write
them, but I'm convinced of authentic. But anyway, these so yeah, you know, being offered that you know there was, but you know I always tell I'll go home and the warriors, and no matter how long it takes, when we were our motto became once we after Sante raiding, mell got consolidated there in while, oh, our motto was returned with honor. And you know, no matter how long it's it going to take, we were planning. And give you an example, give you a little history.
I'm sorry. President Johnson stopped all bombing north of the twentieth parallel March thirty first, nineteen sixty eight, and Honette Hanoi and High found their main harbor twenty one degrees north, so that meant no more bombing up there. And then he stopped all bombing North Vietnam November first to sixty eight. He's opened to sway the election and didn't work. Pubert Humphrey lost and Nixon won.
And then the US except for the Santi raid, which is November seventy, there were no US aircraft up there until May of seventy two, when the US resumed bombing because of what the end of March, the North Vietnamese as Nixon was drawing down, the US troops and the South Vietnamese army were taken over the North Mease drove tanks across the military zone, and so the US
then came back and resumed the bomby starting in May. So we went for over four years there basically no US aircraft up there, no air activity, and so the Vietnamese had us there and wallow after that they brought a tiro out lying camps, and there were seven of us one day standing around conjecturing about how much longer we thought the war was going to go on, and based upon the pace at which it had been conducted, we came to a
consensus of another ten or fifteen years. And at that point I I've done been there about four and a half years. But we all looked at each other and it seemed very realistic. Another ten to fifteen years, that's what we're respecting. And Sweden in those days was granting asylum to American draft dodgers and deserters, and so one of the guys, after we went around,
we all and we all accept it seemed very plausible and everything. Nobody was upset and all about it, but one of them, Jim Berger, I remember he finally said, well, I'm gonna give him another fifteen years, then I'm gonna go to Sweden, and had a little bit of levity to it. But fortunately we didn't have to wait because President Nixon, you know, when he came became president, he wanted to withdraw the US troops and
with honor, and he was drawn it down. I think he has the US down to about her sixty five thousand troops there in sixty in seventy two from a height about five hundred and fifty thousand. So Nixon was trying to get us out, but he had Kissinger, his Secretary of State, in Paris, inducting, you know, negotiations with Lee Ductee for the North Vietnamese and and he was very frustrated with the pace of negotiations and in fact, it took him six months to even determined the size and the shape of the
table. And so Nixon was frustrated. And also even though he had won reelection in November seventy two very handily, he only lost the state of Massachusetts and district of but he also recognized the Democrats had won the House of Representatives and when they took power in January, he would have even less freedom of action. So he authorized what became known as the Linebacker two, colloquially known as Christmas bombing because it was December eighteenth to Ninete swing ninth, nineteen seventy
two. And now the purists always say eleven days because he took Christmas off, but I used to always say in twelve days. He ended a war that had gone on for twelve years because the North Vietnamese, I mean, they had B fifty two's going up there, fighters around the clock, and whereas before we used to go in hit him in the morning, him in the afternoons radically, but now this was around the clock, and Northvietames ran
out of their defenses. They mined their harbor of Hanoi starting in maya seventy two. It had been left open the whole war until Maya seventy two, and the Soviets and Chinese ships were bringing in all this warmterary. So they finally had him on their knees, and the North Peta mes went ahead and capitulated, and they led the peace agreements and are being released in February March
of nineteen seventy three, known as Operational Homecoming. And so, as I said, we're all very grateful to President Nixon, because yes, we would have been prepared. I'm sure that another ten or fifteen years. Granted there may been a few people taking the early releases, like the ones that had bailed on us and deserted us before, you know, but those are just a handful, but I'm sure the best majority of guys they were going to
do whatever took to return with honor. But fortunately President Nixon say this, and we didn't have to a couple questions before we talk about your release. You mentioned being in your room a couple of times. Sounds like you had a roommate or at least one described what the room was like. Well, the first room I was in was about five by seven. Then I got moved to him in his room about eight by eight, had bunk beds on each side, had a little walkway between him and down at the end of
the one of them was a little bucket bathroom purposes. And then we were there for about a month and then he moved just another camp. When we got what we call a suite his room that was about fourteen by fourteen, and we thought it was great. The theme is Terry and I. I think we were together for fourteen months before we got a roommate. And he and I were so much different than each other. He was, for one thing, he's five years older. Even though he was he come in the
Air Force late. He was older, and so you know he's coming in after I had and everything, and he's another four back seater. And but the thing it is being locked up like that, you know, just you know, it's it's like you know, you know, you know, you appreciate having a roommate. The fact that the conditions we were in the weather was very much like here get hot munkey in summer and get cold in winter. Sometimes you get a little freezing at night. And we didn't have heatery
or conditioning. It was basically which your body generated, and the room didn't have that great ventilation. So being in that situation, it wasn't a very pleasant situation. So sometimes a person you're with, you, you know, any resentment you might have, your sort of you know, conveying it to them. So and at night, as I said, they they pretty much except to get out the maybe shower or go to quiz h. They you know, most of time you're locked up like that. And then and then
they did sometimes would have a work detail. And if they have had a work detail, like maybe they we took our buckets and they had an open sewer system. I call them binge dishes, and you jump your bucket there. And occasionally each little building had its own little walled areas or like a comput here, and it have us take the buckets and dredge the binge dishes and take the sledge out of it and put it around the plants. And
it's human fertilizer. But it worked, you know. But the thing it is, they did that unless you bathe again, especially when it was hot. It was great to have a second bath in the day because those rooms, the walls are about a foot thick, and you could feel they radiated heat during the day because they got heat soaked. And then the winter they get cold soaked. So you can step outside it might be fifty degrees and you get back into room. It was just you can tell this a big
difference in cold in your room. But you know, so, and there was another time we had another work detail we call they had in one camp, they had us making coal balls as their coal was I called pituminous coals with little pieces, and then mix it with mud and you'd make these sort of baseball size coal balls. Made it a little bit bigger than that, and you put them to dry and then use those for cooking in the kitchen, and your hands would be all black. But the thing is, then
if you have to bathe again. But the other thing, when you're outside, you also get a chance to look around and see where you know, things like that. So if you did get a chance to get out of your room, you did. And then of course at night they had a bare light bulb hanging in the room, so they could there's a little flap
on the door, they could look in and check on you. The thing it is, though, with that bare light, the flies would come land on the ceiling, and then the geckos could walk upside down the ceiling and they'd get a few inches away from a fly and they jump, and amazing, they could jump and get the fly and still hang on. Most of the time. Occasionally you hear a splat and there'd be a gecko lying belly down on the floor. And you think he's dead, and after a few
or so he's shaken off and go right off again. And I heard the record in one room was fifty six flies in one night by single gecko. So then there was also the gecko mating ritual. You know, that was another thing. You can make a few crude jokes about that. Our guest has retired US Air Force Colonel Howard Hill, a Vietnam veteran who spent more than five years as a prisoner of war. In a moment, Colonel Hill explains how he stayed mentally sharp in prison by composing poetry about the greatness of
America. And he'll describe what it was like to be free again. I'm Greg Corumbus, and this is Veterans Chronicles. This is Veterans' Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Our guest this week is retired US Air Force colonel, Vietnam veteran and former prisoner of war, Howard Hill. In a moment, Colonel Hill will take us back to that wonderful moment where he regained his freedom in
nighteteen seventy three. But first, while still languishing in the Hanway Hilton, Colonel Hill kept his mind sharp and his thoughts clear by composing poetry that extolled what he loves about America. I wrote for the fourth of July seventy one, Remember, you know, beloved, heritage is our by God's own hand. Freedom's flower was planted at our nation's door, or something like that.
And I closed it off with the stanzas that goes referring to the flower being a metaphor for freedom, and that about how it has to be taken care of. Much needed care cannot be sloughed. A few must bear the load for all. From sun silk shores to windswept bluffs, we few will answer duty's call. And to the Vietnam best. It's like I spoke to some as a thing a couple of years ago, years ago, and I closed off with that last stanza because I said, you were the wee few who
answered duty's call. And that's the way I feel about it, the ones that went over there and served. And I wished every Vietnam bett had gotten to welcome home we because they deserved it, you know. And but yeah, feel strongly that very important. We're very fortunate to live in America. Tell me about the day you became free again. Oh okay, well they
they busted us to uh. Now, anytime they ever moved us before, they always had us in uh either in vehicles that had tarps covering the sides, the fronts and backs and everything so you couldn't see out, or if you were like one time they did move us on a bus or something where we're seated. Now, sometimes in the trucks you didn't have anything used on the on the metal deck, but this time we were seated, but they had a there's a claw that we had like a small towel and they put
anyway, I think that's what they put over eyes. But mine was thin enough that actually and we're traveling at night, but they wants to see, but actually there's thin enough. I could actually make out some of the stuff as we're traveling through Hanoi there, and I could see some of what was going on in there, movings between camps. But that day when they put us on board and the bus and nothing, we got to look out and everything. And I do remember we passed this one rail yard that it was
amazing that the bombing had been done by these fifty twos and everything. I mean, it was so precise they took out this railroad yard. I mean it was in shambles, and buildings on either side were still standing, you know. I mean a few of them shown a few bawk marts, but I mean it was fantastic the fact that those guys were doing, because you know, a lot of people don't realize that B fifty two is going into
that environment. The number I had was fifteen B fifty two we lost and during Linebacker two and only one of their five man crews and only one crew made it back into and we also lost another eleven fighters or attack aircraft and a chopper. So it wasn't cheap. I mean, those guys went in there and to get us out, but that was really great. They took us in and we got the airport and then got off and one was there and close to Clark air Base, and it was fantastic, you know.
And I'd say Clark for three days. And then my wife was in the DC area. She had been very active in the League of Families helping that gets set up. She did and very active member, and she did a lot of speaking for the State Department in DoD public speaking and in fact here locally, it turned out the daily News newspaper here they actually published the front page of their paper. One time was a letter in Vietna to me.
It was written in Vietnamese. It was supposed to be an open letter to North Vietnam to have them treat respect us as to honor the Geneva Conventions on Treatment of Prisoners of War. And so my wife they England actually flew copies up to one thousand copies up to DC to Andrew's Air Force Base, and my wife was the one picked him up, took them down the League of Families and they took around distributed them to all the congressman's offices and all the
government offices are their DC area and everything like that. So she's very active. So I supposed to come back to Andrews three days there later, but as we were inbound, normally could take a thirty nine cross wind component, but because we were board, they lowered the standard to twenty and since there's
limits, they diverted u Ascott Air Force Base near Saint Louis. So here I got delayed to day and get to meet my wife's So then the next day we got to fly into Andrews and got to be there and I will say one thing was it wasn't easy. I hadn't seen her five and a half years, and of course when she was twenty two when I left, the twenty seven when I got back, and here she'd been dealing with all this and it war stuff and then so she had you know, grown matured,
and she was different. And I don't know that I had, you know, much, But anyway, it was an interesting the experience. Say, we're always fortunate we didn't have kids, because it's just trying to you know, I mean, the fact that she stuck with me all this time, put up with me, and the Air Force has what they call the Longevity Ribbon, and you know, after four years you get it the award
and oak Leaf Custer every four years after that. Well, with all the griefs that she's experienced because of me or with me and everything, she thinks they ought to be a long griefity ribbon for a ward for she be qualified for. But no, it's they give you this. She's fantastic, And you know, it's like a lot of people don't realize that the north end of me is. They didn't They didn't even release a third of the names
of the people they held. So there were a lot of families back here that some of them didn't know whether their loved one was dead or alive. And even they did know their loved one was alive, And of course my wife did because after some and a half months, my friend Cedar came home and said, yes, we've been taking it together, so she knew that. And then after I'd been there a little over two years, I was allowed to write a little five line letter to her, so she at least
knew I was. But for some of them, they had no idea the whole time. Like Dave Gray, who's just in here a while back, his family didn't know until two weeks before he got released that he's said that.
You know, they withheld names until the very end, so they didn't know a lot of whether loved ones that are alive, and if they did, they didn't know when or even if we were coming home because the war was open ended, and then assuming we did come home, what mental physical condition would be in So, you know, they had the Wiston families had their own survival situation and so as I tell people, I said, they had to and of course they didn't have the training for survival school we had,
so they did fortunately later from the League of Families that started in nineteen seventy that helped. But for a lot of them, I mean it was it wasn't easy. So I say they did the best they could. Don't follow one of them no matter what decisions they made, you know, so it was tough for him. Just a couple of quick questions before we let you go. You are one of a small number of Americans who knows what it's like to lose freedom and get it back. Most of us will never
know what it's like to lose it. So what do you have to say to anyone who might not appreciate the freedoms we have here? You better you better appreciate them because you don't ever lose them. We are very blessed in this country that even people that are very critical of our country are. You know, they should be recognized that they're blessed that they can even be as
critical as they are and be allowed to do it. You know, because in some countries, if you speak up against the government or the ruling elite or whatever you know, there sometimes you suffer some severe consequences. So no matter what your beliefs are at uh, but you know it is each of us. I think he has the responsibility to go back and look and see what our country is and from the beginning, and yeah, it has its flaws, and look at our history and learn it words and all good points
and bad points. But overall, I think, you know, we're very fortunate. It's like I tell people, our constitution, it's like I think it was. It was. It was the first of its kind. And there's something like about eighty countries in the world that have a constitution that's modeled after ours, and a lot of them it's more it's more just words than actually action. Some of them don't live up to them. But granted,
the United States is you know, I think we are exceptional. Our country is exceptional, and our history, granted it has got some things that in no way should you know, it's just but you also, you know, need to recognize that those were the times and you can't look at the past using your present what's called presidentism, you can't look at it through the present lens because a lot of things that were done then the thinking was different in
mentality. But there's nothing wrong with you know, criticizing it and saying it. But and you know, we need to have people who are willing to learn it and preserve this wonderful thing we have. It's the most noble experience, experiment in the human of the existence, and we can't lose it. I can't think of a better way to conclude, Colonel. It's been an honor to meet you. I appreciate the time you spent with us today and
thank you for your incredible service and sacrifice. Well listen, thank you a pleasure. And you know, we used to sign off whenever we were tapping. And I don't know if I can do it here, but I'll do it real quick here. What we do had tap code is we were supposed to communicate. They came up with what they called the tap code, and basically is basically you take out the letter K and make a matrix of five by five, so A becomes one to one and B one two and everything
like that. And so whenever we're communicating, unless you had to sign off somebody danger like guard coming, you dumped the wall real hard. But if you were signing off, what you do is go and that was gbu gba, God bless you, God bless America. And that's what I tell people. God bless you. God blessed America. God bless you. Sir. Retired US Air Force Colonel Howard Hill, Vietnam veteran, recipient of two Silver Stars and spent more than five years in captivity in Vietnam after being shot down
in December of nineteen sixty seven. I'm Greg Corumbus. This is Veteran's Chronicles. Hi, this is Greg Corumbus, and thanks for listening to Veterans Chronicles, a presentation of the American Veterans Center. For more information, please visit American Veteranscenter dot org. You can also follow the American Veterans Center on Facebook
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