Congress Grills NPR, a Filibuster Showdown & Behind the Tariffs Week In Review - podcast episode cover

Congress Grills NPR, a Filibuster Showdown & Behind the Tariffs Week In Review

Apr 05, 202538 minEp. 82
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Episode description

  1. Congressional Hearing:

    • The CEOs of NPR and PBS faced tough questioning from Congress, reminiscent of previous hearings involving Ivy League presidents on anti-Semitism.
    • Catherine Maher, the CEO of NPR, was particularly criticized for her past tweets and statements, which were scrutinized by Brandon Gill, a freshman House member from Texas.
  2. Key Exchanges:

    • Maher was questioned about tweets related to white supremacy, reparations, and looting. She often claimed not to recall the context or denied the implications of her tweets.
    • Gill highlighted contradictions in Maher's statements, pointing out her previous calls for reparations and her views on looting.
  3. Maher's Background:

    • Maher has a history of working with various organizations, including the Council on Foreign Relations, UNICEF, the National Democratic Institute, the World Bank, Access Now, and the Wikimedia Foundation.
    • Her testimony was seen as evasive and out of touch, drawing parallels to past controversial testimonies by other leaders.
  4. Filibuster Record:

    • We also mention Senator Cory Booker's record-breaking filibuster, surpassing Strom Thurmond's previous record.
    • Senator Ted Cruz shared his experience and advice on filibustering, including practical tips like wearing comfortable shoes and drinking minimal water.
  5. Tariffs and Economic Policy:

    • We discuss President Trump's use of tariffs as leverage and economic policy, highlighting the immediate and long-term impacts on the economy.
    • The Tax Foundation's analysis predicts significant revenue from tariffs but also potential negative effects on GDP and household income.

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Transcript

Speaker 1

Welcome in his verdict with Ted Cruz a week in Review, Ben Ferguson with you, and here are the big stories that you may have missed that we talked about this week.

Speaker 2

First up, NPR.

Speaker 1

Was in front of Congress having to answer questions about all the government funds that are going to their organization. You're going to be shocked what the CEO had to say and how out of touch they were with reality. Also, you had a filibuster that happened this week. But what was it over, Well, that's the funny part. We'll give you the details of one senator that decided to stay up all day and all night to philipbuster your vote.

And finally, Senator Cruz takes you behind the scenes so you understand exactly what's going on with his colleagues when it comes to the tariff situation. It's the weekend review and it starts right now, which brings us to another aspect of this and that was what happened in Congress last week with MPR CEO and PBSS CEO there in front of Congress having to deal with what DOGE is doing, which is cutting waste, fraud and abuse, and it did

not go very well for those CEOs. It reminded me an awful lot Cenator of when the presidents of the Ivy League schools had to come and answer questions about anti Semitism on college campuses after the attacks on Israel, and people were just in shock how radical they were and how they were not stopping it.

Speaker 2

That was very reminiscent of that.

Speaker 1

With NPR CEO very arrogant, pbsco very arrogant, like, this is what we do. We take your money, we put out propaganda, so sue us. That's what we've been doing forever.

Speaker 3

Well, and Catherine Maher who's the CEO of NPR, is arrogant, drippingly arrogant. She is hard left, and it was exactly like you're right. The president of Harvard, the president of Penn both of them lost their jobs over their arrogant, out of touch testimony before the House. Where where she is look she she's a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. She worked for UNISEF, She worked for the National Democratic Institute, She worked for the World Bank and

Access Now. She worked for Wikimedia Wikimedia Foundation. She joined the Atlantic Council. She was part of the Department of States, Foreign Affairs Policy Board. She she is a hard leftist. But look, don't take my word for it. Listen to it out of out of, out of her own mouth. And I want you to listen, in particular for this back and forth with Brandon gil Brandon Gill is a freshman House member from Texas. He's a good friend. I campaigned hard for Brandon. I endorsed him in the primary.

Brandon is a rising star in the House. And and just listen to this back and forth as he questions her, and and and and hangs her on her own petard with her own words. Give a listen.

Speaker 4

Do you believe that America is addicted to white supremacy?

Speaker 5

I believe that I tweeted that.

Speaker 6

And I, as I've said earlier, I believe much of my thinking has evolved over the last half decade.

Speaker 2

It is okay, stop stop, stop stops.

Speaker 3

I want you to notice something she says there, much of my thinking has evolved over the last half decade. Ben, what's a half decade?

Speaker 2

Five years?

Speaker 3

That would be five years. Doesn't that half decades sound long? I believe much of my thinking has evolved over the last half decade. Oh crap, what I said five years ago. Oh no, that's a real problem. Run away, run away, all right, go back to what he's playing with has evolved. I just like that that that comment. Her idiocy only gets me laugh.

Speaker 2

As soon as I heard, I was like, this is not going well. Keep listening, it gets evolved.

Speaker 7

Why did you tweet that?

Speaker 6

I don't recall the exact context, sir, so I wouldn't be able to say.

Speaker 4

Okay, do you believe that America believes in black plunder and white democracy?

Speaker 5

I don't believe that, sir. You tweet it.

Speaker 4

It's reference to a book you were reading at the time, apparently The Case for Reparations.

Speaker 5

I don't think I've ever read that book, sir.

Speaker 7

You tweeted about it.

Speaker 4

You said you took a day off to fully read The Case for Reparations.

Speaker 7

You put that on Twitter in January of twenty twenty.

Speaker 5

I apologies. I don't recall that I did. I don't okay.

Speaker 6

I'd no doubt that your tweet there is correct, but I don't recall.

Speaker 4

Okay, do you believe that white people and inherently feel superior to other races?

Speaker 5

I do not.

Speaker 4

You tweeted something to that effect. You said I grew up feeling superior. Ha, how wide of me. Why did you tweet that?

Speaker 6

I think I was probably reflecting on what it was to be to grow up in an environment where I had lots of advantages.

Speaker 4

It sounds like you're saying that white people feel superior.

Speaker 6

I don't believe that anybody feels that way, sir. I was just reflecting on my own experience.

Speaker 7

Do you think the white people should pay reparations?

Speaker 5

I have never said that, sir.

Speaker 7

Yes you did.

Speaker 4

You said it in January of twenty twenty. You tweeted, yes, the North, yes, all of us, yes, America, yes, our original collective sin and unpaid debt. Yes, reparation, yes on this day.

Speaker 6

I don't believe that was a reference to fiscal referations, sir.

Speaker 7

What kind of reparations was it a reference to.

Speaker 6

I think it was just a reference to the idea that we all owe much to the people who came before us.

Speaker 4

That's a bizarre way to frame what you tweeted. Okay, how many How much reparations have you personally paid, sir?

Speaker 6

I don't believe that I've ever paid reparations.

Speaker 7

Okay, just for everybody else.

Speaker 5

I'm not asking anyone seems to.

Speaker 4

Be what you're suggesting. Do you believe that looting is morally wrong?

Speaker 6

I believe that looting is illegal, and I refer to it as counterproductive.

Speaker 5

I think it should be prosecuted.

Speaker 7

Do you believe it's morally wrong though?

Speaker 5

Of course?

Speaker 4

Of course, then why did you refer to it as counter productive? Very different, very different way to describe it.

Speaker 6

It is both morally wrong and counterproductive as well as.

Speaker 4

Being be tweeted, it's hard to be mad about protests. In reference to the BLM protests not prioritizing the private property of a system of oppression, you didn't condemn the lout. You said that it was counter productive. NPR also promoted a book called in Defensive Looting. Do you think that that's an appropriate use of taxpayer dollars?

Speaker 6

I'm unfamiliar with that book, sir, and I don't believe that was at my tweeted that you read that book, But I don't believe that I did read that book.

Speaker 1

It's amazing she tweeted that she read the book. She's like, I don't believe that I ever read that book. So you're either lying now or you're lying. What a half half a decade ago is she likes.

Speaker 3

To describe it, right, Senator, Look, that is a crushingly effective cross examination. And if you look at at she is running away from everything she's ever said, everything she's ever believed, because it is indefensible when she says. You know, she claimed on Twitter she took an entire day off to read a book on reparations. It was so important that she devoted a day of her and now she has no recollection. I'm sorry, I you know this. This will be before you were watching TV, but there was

an old series. You ever watch Hogan's Heroes? Yeah, gosh, yes, okay, Well do you remember Sergeant Schultz. Yes, Sergeant Schultz would say I see nothing, I hear nothing. That is that's that is Catherine Marr. She sees nothing, she hears nothing. Uh and and yet this is someone charged with spending millions of taxpayer dollars running what is a left wing propaganda network. You know her statement, I've never called for reparations. I gotta say, Brandon, I think does a fabulous shop.

Speaker 2

Well yes you did.

Speaker 3

Let me read you the tweet and she says reparations yes, oh oh well, well other than when I called for reparations. But I haven't called for it other than when I've called for it. But but but no, no, it's not fiscal reparations. It's it's I mean, I mean, I mean repairing the tires on their cars. That's that, those are the reparations.

Speaker 2

I mean.

Speaker 3

She has no answer because her answer is she desperately wants to run away from everything she is ever said or done. But but let me actually, let's actually go to something else that that that that she said and did, which is what do you think she has cited as the number one challenge?

Speaker 7

Uh?

Speaker 3

That it that that is facing uh that that is facing journalism right now, knowing this woman have no idea. Okay, here here is a quote from her at a panel at the Atlantic Council Research Lab.

Speaker 2

Quote.

Speaker 3

The number one challenge that we see here is, of course, the First Amendment in the United States.

Speaker 1

It's it's so like, it's so on Brandford, that's almost unbelievable. Though, like a woman who says that she believes in in the public and radio and free speed says that's the real problem is is the First Amendment? In fact, Sedor here's the NPR CEO in her own words, saying exactly that the.

Speaker 8

Number one challenge here that we see is, of course, the First Amendment in the United States is a fairly robust protection of rights, and that is a protection of rights both for platforms, which I actually think is very important that platforms have those rights to be able to regulate what kind of content they want on their sites.

But it also means that it is a little bit trick really addressed some of the real challenges of where does bad information come from and sort of the influence peddlers who have made a real market economy around it.

Speaker 2

I mean, you listen to her, and it's just amazing.

Speaker 1

If we could just do what we want and get rid of everything we don't want and silence anybody that says the thing that is disagreeing with us, and everything would be fine in media and with our government, right, we could just control everybody and shut everybody down.

Speaker 2

We don't like that, is the NPR CEO saying it.

Speaker 3

Look, the left believes in censorship, that they don't believe in journalism, they don't believe in media, they believe in propaganda. And you and I on this podcast covered last year a story that was written in the Free Press by Yuri Berliner, and it was in April of twenty four and it was entitled I've been at NPR for twenty five years. Here's how we lost America's trust. And I just want to read the beginning of it again because we did a good chunk of a podcast just on

this story. But it really sets up the absolute disaster that is NPR today. How Uri Billinner began. You know the stereotype of the NPR lister, an ev driving, wordle playing, tote bag carrying, coastal elite. It doesn't precisely describe me, but it's not far off. I'm Sarah Lawrence, educated, was raised by a lesbian peace activist mother. I drive a super room and Spotify says my listing habits are most similar to people in Berkeley. I fit the NPR mold. I'll cop to that. So when I got a job

here twenty five years ago, I never looked back. As a senior editor on the business desk, where news is always breaking, we've covered up peebles in the workplace, supermarket prices, social media, and AI. It's true NPR always had a liberal bent, but during most of my tenure here, an open minded curious culture prevailed. We were nerdy, not knee

jerk activists or scolding. In recent years, however, that has changed. Today, those who listen to NPR or read its coverage online find something different the distilled worldview of a very small segment of the US population. If you are a conservative, you will read this and say, duh, it's always been this way, but it hasn't.

Speaker 2

For decades.

Speaker 3

Since its founding in nineteen seventy, a wide swath of America turned into NPR for reliable journalism and gorgeous audio pieces with birds singing in the Amazon. Millions came to us for conversations that exposed us to voices around the country, in the world radically different from our own, engaging precisely

because they were unguarded and unpredictable. No image generated more pride within NPR than the farmer listening to Morning Edition from his or her tractor at sunrise back in twenty eleven. Although NPR's audience is tilted a bit to the left, it still bore a resemblance to America at large. Twenty six percent of listeners described themselves as conservative, twenty three percent as middle of the road, and thirty seven percent

as liberal. By twenty twenty three, the picture was completely different. Only eleven percent described themselves as very or somewhat conservative, twenty one percent as middle of the road, and sixty seven percent of listeners said they were very or somewhat liberal. We weren't just losing conservatives, we were also losing moderates and traditional liberals. An open minded spirit no longer exists within NPR, and now, predictably, we don't have an audience that reflects America.

Speaker 1

Now, if you want to hear the rest of this conversation, you can go back and listen to the full podcast from earlier this week. Now onto story number two. All right, Senator, so let's move to another very interesting moment. One of your colleagues in the Senate decided he was going to take away your record on a philibuster. You guys were very different and why you were philibustering. But he did beat your record today, and you even posted something that was hilarious online as well.

Speaker 2

Well.

Speaker 3

Corey Booker, Democrat from New Jersey, has now set the record for the longest speech in history on the Senate floor, and he spoke for twenty five hours and four minutes.

Speaker 7

And so it was.

Speaker 3

It was incredibly long. It surpassed the record had been held by strom Thurman, who spoke for twenty four hours and eighteen minutes in nineteen fifty seven. And he was he was philibustering strom Thurman was philibustering the nineteen fifty seven Civil Rights Act. And that that had been been the record until until last night, when when Corey Booker broke it. Now fourth all time, it is yours.

Speaker 7

Truly.

Speaker 3

I used to be third all time, but but Corey knocked me down. And and so so my record in twenty thirteen, I spoke on the Senate floor for twenty one hours and nineteen minutes. Uh and and so Corey, Corey just beat me. I will I will say I

tweeted out right before he broke my record. And so I took to Twitter and tweeted out, as Corey Booker approaches my twenty one hour filibuster record, I'm contemplating pulling the fire alarm hat tip Jamal Bowman, and I sent out a picture of Jamal and but Bowman, the Democrat congressman, pulling the fire alarm in the Capitol to avoid a vote.

And and and I will say that that that that tweet went viral, and in fact, Corey ended up at the end of his twenty five hour filibuster reading that tweet on the Senate floor, which which was which I enjoyed it. I actually like Corey, and he and I are friends, and so I'm glad he read it, and I will. In my twenty thirteen filibuster, I read a number of tweets on the Senate floor, and I believe that was the first time in history a tweet had ever been read on the Senate floor, and I read

a whole bunch of them. Now, there is a significant difference between what I was filibustering over and what Corey Booker was philibustering over. What I was filibustering over was Obamacare, and I was doing so because it was right what Obamacare was going into effect, and I was trying to stop it from going into effect because the American people it was having the effect of driving up premiums dramatically

reducing choices. Barack Obama famously said, if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor, and millions of Americans discovered that was not the case.

Speaker 2

That was a lie.

Speaker 3

In fact, PolitiFact named Barack Obama's if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor the lie of the year, and for them to admit a Democrat is lying is really quite remarkable because effect lies for a living. And so that filibuster, when I did it in twenty thirteen, I was a brand new baby freshman, and it was the theme of the filibuster was make DC listen. And I will tell you it had. It had a significant effect,

and in fact, it energized people across the country. And I'll point to what the effect was in twenty fourteen. The next year, we had an election, and it was a tsunami election. Republicans ended up winning nine Senate seats, we retired Harry Reid as majority leader, and we ended up winning the biggest majority in the House of Representative

since nineteen twenty eight. And if you look at exit polling in that twenty fourteen election, the number one issue in the country, according to the voters that were turning out in massive numbers, was Obamacare, and they were saying, finally, finally, you're fighting. Finally, Republicans are not rolling over. And so that had I think a very significant effect on election day and helped win back both the Senate and House for Republicans. I don't think Corey Bookers is going to

have that same effect. And in fact, listen, I don't know how many people watched it. I suspect like that CNN and MSNBC was probably gushing about it, but I'll confess I didn't turn on cn N or MSNBC, so I don't know one where the other. I don't particularly care. The seven Rabbid partisans who watched those networks probably were quite happy with it. But at the end of the day, look what was Cory Booker talking about, As best I can tell, it was I hate Donald Trump. I'm a Democrat,

Trump bad, Orange Van bad. I'm mad at the voters. Why did the voters elect Trump? Whye did the voters elector Republican Senate? Why did the voters elected Republican House? Gosh, I'm mad at the voters. Gosh, I hate Trump. I'm not sure there's anything new there. I'm not sure was there a person in America who was confused yesterday and didn't know that that that that saidate Democrats hate Donald Trump?

Like like, was there any new information in it? And and and so I've got to say I'm skeptical, uh that that it's going to have a meaningful impact. And I'll point out it's not just me who's who says said that. Take a listen to what Joe Biden's communications director, UH Kate Bettingfield uh said about Corey booker speech.

Speaker 9

The Democratic base and Democratic donors are looking for signs of life, and so I think what Senator Booker is giving them here are some signs of life. Is it going to have a tangible impact on business?

Speaker 5

I mean.

Speaker 9

I have a tangible impact on Booker, but I won't have a tangible impact on business in Washington.

Speaker 2

I mean, that's CNN saying it, Senator. And look it was they changed and that's Biden's communications director.

Speaker 3

It's Biden's communication director, amazingly enough. And so so look Corey's that that's fine. Now now I will tell you. So it was funny as Booker was giving his filibuster, reporters were all rotting up to be and then they all knew that he was. He was aiming to beat my records. So they were asking me about it, and they said, did you have any advice? And I will I will admit Corey didn't ask me for any advice. So now I did not give him any advice on this,

but I did share a story. So when I did the filibuster in twenty thirteen, I had gotten some advice from Rand Paul. So Rand Paul had done a thirteen hour filibuster and I was planning to do mine and Rand I asked him, Hey, Rand, you got any advice because he'd just done thirteen hours, and he said, yeah.

Speaker 5

Two things.

Speaker 3

He said, Number one, wear comfortable shoes, because he said, your feet and your legs will be killing you.

Speaker 8

Uh.

Speaker 3

And I will confess. I I as you know, every day in the Senate, I wear black cowboy boots, the boo boots. I wear alligator boots, and and they have the Senate seal on the front and on the back of it they have the come and Take It flag and and so that's that's that's my standard foot wear in the Senate. But for the filibuster, I went to the store and I bought some some black tennis shoes.

Speaker 7

Uh.

Speaker 3

And in the middle of the filibuster, at like two or three in the morning, I confess to the people of Texas. I said, look, I have to I just have to apologize to the people of Texas. I'm sorry I didn't have the courage of my convictions to wear my boots. I I I weaned out and got black tennis shoes. But but I was planning on standing here for a really long time. And and so I will admit the tennis shoes are are are are more comfortable

for for the marathon time. The second bit of advice ran game, I gotta ask you.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I got to ask you though, when you were picking out the tennis shoes, did you buy brand new or did you wear them a little bit beforehand?

Speaker 6

Yeah?

Speaker 3

I didn't break them in and they were fine, and and I don't think I've ever worn them since then. Like I literally they wore them for the filibuster and that was it. But but fortunately, even though they were new, they were they were pretty comfortable. They were not bad at all. The second bit of advice Rand gave me was was if anything even more important? He said, drink very little water. And in fact, Rand said when he ended at thirteen hours, he said, my legs didn't take me.

It didn't make me give in. My bladder did. And the most common question that that that I would get about the filibuster is okay, what do you do about going to the bathroom? And the real simple answer is you don't. So the rules of a filibuster, you have to stand, you cannot sit, and you have to stay on the Senate floor. If if you sit, or if you leave the Senate floor, you relinquish the floor, and and and so, and that's why comfortable shoes matter, because

you're not allowed. You're technically not even allowed to lean on the desk, although that that rule is not not heavily enforced. You you can lean a little bit.

Speaker 2

But you can't.

Speaker 3

Uh but but you can't can't sit. And and legend has it that during strong thermons UH filibuster that that that he had an aid hold a bucket in in in in the Senate cloak room, and and and and he he took a leak while filibustering while standing on the Senate floor. I figured, in the in the era of of uh C span that probably wasn't the best idea. So I was not going to do that. And so for the entire course of of twenty one plus hours, I drank one tiny little glass of water and that

that's all. I basically would take a little sip just to just to moisten my throat, and and I got to say, look, I've never gone twenty one hours with going to without go to the bathroom, and and uh, you know, I discovered a very simple principle which is nothing in, nothing out. And so it was fine. But that was excellent advice.

Speaker 1

All right. So final question on this, and this is I'm sure something that was going through your mind, Corey Booker's mind. When did you know you were just going to end it? How do you decide? Are you looking at a certain time in your mind where you're like, I gotta make it to X, and then as soon as it hits I'm done.

Speaker 2

What is the process of that as well?

Speaker 3

Well? Actually I could have gone longer, and the problem was in order to do the filibuster. A pure filibuster is when the Senate floor is wide open and you take control of the filibuster, and it is the prerogative of every senator have unlimited debate, and so if you take control of the floor, you can hold it for

as long as you are able to hold it. When I started the filibuster, unfortunately Harry Reid, then the majority leader, the Democrats were in charge had locked in a unanimous consent resolution that the next day there was a vote scheduled I think at noon, and it was locked in, which meant I had an endpoint. I had an endpoint that was a wall because that unanimous consent had been locked in, and so it trumps it is it's effectively a Senate rule. And so when I was north of

twenty one hours, I had plenty of strength. I could have kept going, and I really wanted to break strom Thurman's record, and I actually sent one of my staffers to ask Harry Reid if he would consent. I could have asked unanimous consent to be allowed to complete my speech and if read it aloud and I would have been able to. So I asked my staffer, I'm like, look, do you really want the record for the longest filibuster to be to be held by a segregationist who was

filibustering against the civil rights laws? Like I'd really love to break it? And Harry Reid, being Harry Reid, he just said no, and so I was forced to end. When when I did, Corey Booker that there was not a unanimous consent in place, locking up the time and so Corey was able to go long enough as long as he wanted, and and then and he was able to break the.

Speaker 2

Record as before.

Speaker 1

If you want to hear the rest of this conversation on this topic, you can go back and dow the podcast from earlier this week to hear the entire thing. I want to get back to the big story number three of the week.

Speaker 2

You may have missed.

Speaker 1

All right, So then I got to ask you this question behind the scenes. What are the conversations with your colleagues are on a scove one to ten, how concerned are they over the scenario that you just described forty two?

Speaker 3

Okay, Look, there's another point that I think is important to understand. So you and I did a podcast I think last week where we talked about tariffs, and I talked about I said, listen, the present uses tariffs for two principal purposes. One is leverage as an incentive to incentivize other countries to enact policies that benefit America. And the clearest example of that is the threatened tariffs against

Mexico and Canada unlessen until they help US secure the border. Now, using tariffs's leverage for something like that is very effective. The President uses it really well, and particularly using them to push securing the border. I am emphatically in favor of that. Is it has proven successful. It worked incredibly well in the first term. It produced to remain in Mexico agreement with Mexico. It produced the lowest rate of illegal immigration in forty five years, stopping the border invasion

of the last four years. As an acute national security and public safety imperative, it is a mandate from the last election. It is massively important for Texas. So I'm all for using the thread of tariffs's leverage to get good policy that benefits America. But there's a second component, and this is an important thing to understand, which is Donald Trump and much of his administration believes in tariffs

as an economic policy. We've all heard Donald Trump say tariff is the most beautiful word in the English language. And I do think the business community so look, look, we had the stock market plummeted, we saw massive losses in the stock market. We may well see more massive losses than the stock market. I think the business community was shocked by the magnitude of these communities, of these tariffs,

by the breadth of them. Look as we talked about in our earlier podcast on tariffs, what I've urged the President is two things. Number One, focus on China, because delinking our economy from China is emphatically an America's national security interests and economic security interests. And number two, focus

on reciprocity. And the reason I've said focus on reciprocity is the upside scenario I just talked about, which is, by focusing on reciprocity, if you incentivize other countries to lower their tariffs and we lower ours, that's a win win for America. But the thing to understand, I believe the business community has systematically underestimated how much President Trump and the Trump administration views tariffs as an ongoing, permanent

feature of our economic policy. I can tell you virtually every time I talk with the President, I talk with the President frequently, he goes on at length. Have you seen the billions of dollars, the hundreds of billions of dollars, the trillions of dollars we are raising and are going to raise from tariffs? Now, I think a lot of people said, oh, he's going to threaten these tariffs, but he's going to lift them very quickly. If he does that, great.

If he leaves them in place and we just have constant tariffs, that is a massive tax increase on the American people. And I think many people are underestimating that. The President believes and many members of his administration believe that tariffs are just a fabulous feature of the American economy. They harken back to William McKinley when he was president. Now, now look we used to have before the income tax, tariffs were the main source of revenue for the federal government,

and they want to go back to that scenario. And I got to say, we're going to find out because listen, President Trump believes in this. I think in the first term he wanted to impose policies like this, and I think many Republican senators talked him out of it, pressed him back and said, look, their real risk, don't do this. I think of the second term, Trump feels unchained, he feels unburdened. He's like, screw it, let's go, and he believes it.

Speaker 1

I do know, by the way, that's where the threat could actually work, right, because every other country's looking at saying, hey, like this is surely he's not going to do it. He does it like he's going to finch quickly. There's no indicasion, he's going to finch per se quickly.

Speaker 3

Right.

Speaker 1

I think the real threat of it is the fact that he's actually willing to go through with it.

Speaker 3

Look, I want this to succeed. I wanted to succeed, But my definition of succeed may be different than the White Houses. My definition of succeed is dramatically lower tariffs abroad and result in dramatically lowering tariffs here. That's success for the American workers, American businesses, American growth, American prosperity. That's a great outcome. But look, I think we're going to find out one hundred years ago the US economy didn't have the leverage to have the kind of impact

we do now. But I worry there are voices within the administration that want to see these tariffs continue forever and ever and ever. They don't want a lower of them. They think they're great. And what is particularly I think has has startled some observers. It wasn't just directed at China, it wasn't just directed at bad actors. It was directed against everybody that Yeah, that is the breadth of it is enormous and it carries it carries upside, but it also carries real risk.

Speaker 1

All right, let's talk timeline in your definition of short term or long term. What does that timeline look like, because obviously people are trying to figure out weathering the storm. Right, you talked about supply chain and the car is a great example. You don't feel the pain till let's say June. All right, so give us a few months for things to kind of work its way through, work it out.

Speaker 2

Is that a.

Speaker 1

Timeline of short term and then after that it's it's considered. All right, this is long term? What is that timeline in your opinion?

Speaker 3

Well, let's be clear, the timeline was immediate. So so let me read from the Wall Street Journal headline Trump tariff send out to sixteen hundred point decline, dollar slumps Asian stocks hit for a second day, fear as a recession rise. And here's what the Wall Street Journal reports quote, US markets suffer their steepest decline since twenty twenty on fears President Trump's new terift's plan will trigger a global trid war and dragged the US economy into recession. Major

stock indexes dropped as much as six percent. On Thursday, stocks lost roughly three point one trillion dollars in market value, their largest one day decline since March twenty twenty. Stock index futures drifted lower Thursday evening in stocks in Japan were hit for a second day as Friday training began. In Thursday's market plunge, the Dow Industrials dropped sixteen one

hundred and seventy nine points, or four percent. The tech heavy NAGS deck, which powered the market higher for years, was down six percent, pulled lower by big declines at Nvidia, Apple, and Amazon dot Com. The S and P five hundred, which fell four point eight percent, and the other benchmark suffered their sharpest decline since the early days of the COVID nineteen pandemic. The dollar meanwhile tumbled, with a Wall Street Journal Dollar Index suffering at sharpest decline since twenty

twenty three. Now those are immediate hits, and understand, look, it's easy to say, okay, fine, you know, that's just rich people. Look at this point, a majority of Americans have money invested in four O one ks and iras, and so that's impacting everyone. And people don't necessarily follow their four a one K on a daily basis. Many people see their four A one K statement when it

comes out at the end of the quarter. A whole lot of people are looking at that and we'll see if that's a temporary one day hit, but if it continues to slide over the next few days, that's not waiting for six months to see the impact. That's freaking people out now. And so the consequences of this are real, and I want to be clear about something. Look, it used to be conventional wisdom in Republican politics that free trade is wonderful and we should just have no tariffs and lower teriffs.

Speaker 2

And that was almost everyone to ask you. This is a question. I'm just going to ask it because I know there's people listening.

Speaker 1

They want to know what the definition your definition of free trade is.

Speaker 3

That used to be conventional wisdom. And I want to give Donald Trump credit for something really signific again, which

is he's changed the debate on trade fundamentally. And so I believe in free trade, but I also believe in fair trade, and so when I talk about reciprocity, Donald Trump has made a very clear point, and it's a powerful point, which is many countries on Earth have been taking advantage of the United States and have been imposing really high tariffs and barriers to US goods while having free access to the American markets. And that is unfair. And so I love that President Trump is willing to

use leverage to lower tariffs. I think that's great and that really is a change in the debate. Ten years ago there was nobody in the Republican Party making that argument, and that is the direct result of President Trump's leadership. That's a good thing. Saying we should be treated fairly, that is a good thing. That is a very different proposition from saying it doesn't matter if other countries lower

their tariffs. We're going to impose tariffs on everybody because we think r should be the principal vehicle of funding the economy. If the outcome of this is a multi trillion dollar tax increase on American consumers, I think that that is really consequential and really really harmful.

Speaker 2

So let me ask you one other question, and that is if these tariffs don't change center, then what would the impact be.

Speaker 3

Well, let me share an analysis that a group called the Tax Foundation did. Now, the tax Foundation is a think tank based in Washington, they're very good. They're they're economic experts. They analyze tax policies. They have proven to be incredibly accurate in terms of measuring the impact of taxes. Here's what the Tax Foundation has assessed from the announcement

this week. They say, if these stay in effect, the average tariff rate on all imports will rise from two point five percent in twenty twenty four to eighteen point eight percent, the highest average rate since nineteen thirty three, under the tariffs announced for twenty twenty five. The consequence of those tariffs, they will cause imports to fall by slightly more than nine hundred billion dollars in twenty twenty five,

or twenty eight percent. So that's what they're predicting, is that imports drop nine hundred billion dollars twenty eight percent this year. They also say the newly announced tariffs on April second will raise one point eight trillion dollars in revenue over the next decade and will shrink US GDP

by zero point five percent. The April second escalation, they note, comes in addition to the previously announced tariffs, which will raise another one point three trillion dollars in revenue over the next decade and shrink US GDP by zero point three percent. Altogether, Trump's tariffs will raise nearly three point two trillion dollars in revenue over the next decade and

reduce US GDP by zero point eight percent. They further project the tariffs will reduce after tax income by an average of two point one percent, an amount to an average tax increase of more than two one hundred dollars per US household in twenty twenty five. Now, to be clear, that's a prediction. If these tariffs stay in place, If they don't change, if the upside that I described happens, if foreign countries slash their tariffs and Trump in turn

slash these tariffs, none of those numbers hold. Instead, I think we see an enormous economic boom. But if that doesn't happen, if these tariffs stay in place as an ongoing economic policy, we're facing very real and I think very detrimental consequences.

Speaker 1

As always, thank you for listening to Verdict with Center, Ted Cruz, Ben Ferguson with you don't forget to deal with my podcast, and you can listen to my podcast every other day. You're not listening to Verdict or each day when you listen to Verdict afterwards, I'd love to have you as a listener to again the Ben Ferguson Podcasts, and we will see you back here on Monday morning.

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