Hi, everybody, welcome back to transcending humanity. I'm Erica Vogel, your host for this week. And we'll be discussing parenting trans and non binary children. Today we have Kaylee with us. And they're also joined by our co host, Tasman, Luna and Lisa, everybody say hi, introduce yourselves, please.
I'm Lisa. I'm an ally to the community. And I'm very happy to be here. And I also had three of my former students going through transition. So I was able to give them support from an outside adult perspective.
Oh, hi, I'm Luna. I am part of the pod. I'm a parent of a trans son. And we currently live in Florida, which is, as you know, a terrible state to live in at the moment. So I've got some thoughts.
I'm sure you do. I'm Tamsyn. I'm a trans woman, and I've been out for a few years. I am absolutely in all of the parents who are supporting their kids in such an amazing way all the time. It's like, I don't understand how people don't. So that's what I'm here for to kind of be that support.
I am Kayleen Holt, thank you so much for having me on. I'm just a guest here. But I'm a parent of a non binary kiddo who is 25 and also a gay daughter as well. So huge ally have been for a long time, and loving what you all are doing with this podcast.
Awesome. Thanks for joining us. So parenting children is a wonderful experience that occasionally comes with some unexpected new territory that needs to be navigated explored, with support and advocacy. When a child informs their parents that they are trans or non binary, many parents have no idea what to do. Today we'll talk with Kayleen, about her journey with her non binary child name, as well as really some of our own
experiences. For example, not only am I a trans woman, I am the parent of a trans woman, an arrow, a son and a bi daughter. So quite the LGBTQ family and I have some of my own perspective. But let's jump right in. Hey, Leanne, do you mind telling us about you and Nate and your journey so far?
I'm sure. I actually don't remember the moment that they came out to us. I was trying to remember just for this podcast, and I asked my husband about it, too, and our middle daughter. And I think that it was just because it was such I don't want to say no big deal moment, because it is a big deal. It's important, it's really important, but it was just not something that we looked at as this huge transformation or it was just oh, okay, now I understand who you are better, you know, that
kind of moment. So it was about a year ago, that they came out to us. And really, after kind of a journey of discovering who they work for themselves. So in I don't know how long they were on that journey and don't I mean, obviously, all their life but but as far as when they really started making that connection. I just know that when they first tried on that label, I guess the the non binary label, they said they
weren't quite sure. If they're feeling like I just I don't want to be a woman was because it's just such a terrible thing to be a woman sometimes that you know, our society is so misogynist and sexist, and everything that that is that what they were feeling and they said that they really figured out figured it out when they asked themselves if I could just magically transport to any universe where sexism isn't a thing. You know, the patriarchy
isn't a thing. But also transphobia is not a thing and and homophobia is not a thing. Because, you know, years before this, they had come out as bisexual and then later pansexual is what they figured out they were. They said, If I could exist in a world like that, what would I really want to exist as and the answer they came away with was neither male nor female. Neither man nor woman does as non binary, and that is what makes me happy. So
they explain that to us. And we're happy for them that that's, that's their true self. And I'm so glad they're living their true self now because they went through some, some trauma, they went through a divorce last year. So some traumatic things
around that. I think the hardest part of it for us was just retraining our brains to use the right pronouns, we are supportive from day one, but it's like our brains just even even now still struggle with especially when we think of them as a kid because at that time, we knew them as the girl or we thought they were a girl. And so our brains want to plug in though she her pronouns and have
to correct ourselves. And what I do is, if that comes up in my brain, I will make myself say it with me them like five or six times, at least internally so that, that gets reinforced. Anyway, that's, that's our, our journey with NE And ne has, has several disabilities and so they live with us. They're not able to live on their own right now. So that's part of our, our journey as well non related to them being non binary.
Interestingly, some of the stories that you relay about nay kind of really resonates with me that kind of had those same discussions. Like, if I could live in a different place in a different universe, these things would be true about me. And that's, that's ultimately how I came to my own truth. And when my own child came out as trans, and the funny story is she came out for me, so she's my trans elder, even though I am her parents, nice. And she relayed those same struggles.
And it was interesting that they were going on in the same household and we weren't talking to each other. We didn't see each other. I knew there was something up, right. But there is something that for me, that was very helpful. And if I could reimagine things, would I be different? And once I got to that, I realized I needed to make changes. Yeah. I love that.
It's interesting. My, my middle daughter is, is my autistic elder because she figured out that she's autistic before I figured out that I also am. And so I went to her for advice and for all sorts of things. And it was it I understand that feeling of the tables being turned. Oh, you're the Wiser one now, because you've been on this path longer. Yeah,
it's definitely an interesting place to be with my just about to be 27 year old daughter, and you're like, oh, you know, some things on this path that I don't know. And I'm used to be the one kind of mentoring you and sort of moving you along, but what life does,
but it's fantastic that your both your children have that support. Because I've had, again, as a teacher, I had students come to me, not my three transitioning my three transitioning students had full support of their parents, which I thought, especially at ages 1617 and 18, was phenomenal. Yeah. But my other, you know, LGBTQ kids, I wanted to adopt for them. Because their parents were like, get the hell out of my house, you don't belong to me anymore. And that, as a parent
breaks my heart. And as a teacher, took it to the next level, because I was around these kids for so long. And so I think, parenting, we all know, it takes a village. And you've got those teachers that were so I don't want to get involved with this. This is not you know, this is a kid who I'm not going to call by their correct pronouns. And I always made sure. Even before it became a thing, if I had a student approached me and say, hey, I
can I sit in with you? Yeah. I just don't like how I'm being treated. And we'd have these deep conversations. And as long as they weren't hurting themselves, you know, it stayed private to a point, but I always made sure I referred them to, hey, let your school counselor know, not that Texas school counselors can do much. But at the same time, if they had more support, they were they were better off and we had a couple
of them. Not my students, but students who came to my room because they knew I was a safe teacher. They knew I was accepting. I mean, I didn't get the nickname mama mags for nothing. So I mean, they would come to my room and have lunch because they knew it was safe, they didn't get bullied and stuff like that. So that parenting factor is just so phenomenal for me. Because I know so many kids don't have it,
especially now. They're just they're getting ramrodded, you know, routed RAM railed whatever, railroad Thank you. Sorry. It's like, I can force between my state doesn't want me. If they aren't part of the church at all, my church doesn't want me. And it's like, where do they find that stability? They shouldn't be finding it at home.
Exactly. Yeah. My, my daughters have, and by the way, my nonbinary kid prefers the term daughter. So that's what that's what it used, but they have a friend from high school who first came out as gay. And their parents was, were not supportive at all. And then later came out as as gender fluid. And I think they kind of prepared me for, for our journey with me because I was before I knew that Neha was non veterinary, and I guess before they really realized it as well. But yeah, seeing what their
parents put them through. And I won't go into all of it, because it's very triggering. But I'm sure a lot of of trans folks have experienced the same thing. And it's, it breaks my heart too. And I'm so glad that there are teachers like you, Lisa, who are supportive, that these kids know they can go to I kind of adopted their friend into our family. That's why I mentioned them, because they're my kid too now. But it pains me to see that teachers like you are now kind of in fear for their jobs.
Because how much support can you really provide? If the schools have these, you know, restrictions? You can't, you can't say certain words, you can't teach about these things. It's just, I live in Oklahoma, which is also not a great place to be for LGBTQ folks, we are we are looking at where we want to move. And right now we're, we're just trying to decide do we move to another state? Or do we moved
to another country? Because it is just so bad here and and it's affected my kids mental health so much that I'm like, Okay, if we could move to another country, and they'd be happier and not feel like their very existence and identity is under attack all the time, then why not?
Yeah, it's a really a tough time to be an adult in the United States, this trends, turning that way for most of the LGBTQ community, as well as many other marginalized communities. And as a child, I can't imagine, you know, someone who's relatively young, how much worse this might feel to them. You know, I think for me, I grew up in the gay panic and the AIDS crisis of the 80s. My dad is
gay. So I kind of grew up with people knowing that about me and about my dad, and kind of got used to that, and how bad that felt, in this moment feels a lot like then to me. So to a certain aspect for me, personally, it's a little blunted, right, because I lived through it once already. And here we are doing it again, but anybody on their on their first journey, and this time is, frankly, you know, far worse.
It's it's got to be really scary and seemed like we may never get through it, I believe firmly that we will. But in the short term, it's absolutely wild that in this particular country, people are having to flee certain states or consider fleeing the United States. Because of what's going on for political gain. That's all it is, you know, most of these people don't give a rat's ass enough about us to really care, it's about getting votes, and they don't mind and people die
as a result of that. And that's just, it's hard to imagine that that's where we are. But that's where we are. So when people like Lisa speak up and and talk about the kindness that she offers to students and taking people in. What where did we lose that? I mean, I know that's probably not something this country probably does a lot. You know, American Exceptionalism is all about the individual, but we used to really laud people for finding their true selves. And
we don't know. Right now you've identified yourself as not part of the herd and you've got to be gotten rid of.
Yeah, well, individual individuality and individual liberty is celebrated so long as it doesn't have to do with sex or gender. Because then it's bad. I don't I don't understand it. I don't get it. Um, and so many of you know, our lawmakers in my state, you know, they think they're protecting children. Or at least that's what they say they think. But they're not looking at what protection kids really need.
Because, you know, all of all of the attacks that they're doing, are just making life so much harder for our LGBTQ kids. And it's not going to make them go away. It's not that someone's turning them gay or trans or whatever the hell they think is happening. I don't know, that it's some conspiracy that the agenda, the elusive agenda.
Yeah, it's all misguided. And I wish that they would get to know some folks in the LGBTQ community and and read up on the science studies that that scientists have done showing that, you know, transgender brain aligns with the brain of someone else in that same gender. They're I don't want to say preferred gender, because gender isn't a preference, but they're the gender that they affirm that they identify for
themselves. You know, the science backs that up, it doesn't back up their definition of what biological sex means.
I didn't mean interrupt you Kayleen veneno go right out. You're right. You are so you hit that nail on ahead. When it comes to science, your conservatives, especially your FAR, whatever, you want to call them conservatives, I have my own preference of words, but I won't use them to try to keep a PG can because I came from being very, very new do not religion, and you're looking at science. And that's what scares people.
That's what scared people back in, you know, was not Aristotle, DaVinci provincials time, you know that that's what was so horrific with the Roman Catholic Church. You know, they saw science as witchcraft. And I think that's where that mentality is coming back. And I reposted Liam's thing about you know, this, they want to chill, basically, what's going on? And I said, and I reposted and said, you know, you think it's not going to happen? We're repeating World War Two, we're repeating
Hitler. And they don't see it, because it's not a foreign country. It's here. And they don't see it as Oh, it's not the same thing. It is the same thing. We're all educated adults. We wait and see this. And it's, it's scary. I mean, that's my niece is lesbian identifies as queer. And she is moving from Texas up to me in New in New York. I'm actually going to unfortunately, move back to Texas because I miss my kids. But we're, you know, she's she was up here this weekend,
because she's scared. Yeah, so I mean, I just I can't imagine and she's almost 30 I can't imagine. Luna, I don't know how you how old your child is. But if I remember correctly, teenager. Yep, he's 1414 I can't imagine the thought processes of our teens that are going through this. And even our younger children. I mean, because was it Minnesota and a young girl, a young, I believe, I believe she identified as a girl, I can't if I'm mistaken, I apologize. But you know, let me be who I am.
And that's NFL mentality. We have to get back to let people be who they are, know what society thinks they should be. I will get off my soapbox.
This podcast is all about so boxes continue to stack them up. Right. Okay, so let's let's come back to UK lean and may so what the supporting day look like for you today. And I think also from the perspective of what do people that might be walking down this path themselves soon? Hmm.
Well, for for Nate supporting them is mainly about supporting their mental health. And, you know, I'm sure it's no news to any of you that you know, transgender folks, and I'm including non binary under that umbrella. experience more mental health challenges, then, you know, folks like me who are straight, and it's not because of anything wrong with them. It's not. It's not something inherent in being transgender.
It's because of how they're treated in society is because of all these facts that we've just been talking about. And you know that they're more likely to be victims of bullying of assault of all sorts of it's just that to me is that's been the most painful part lately for me is just learning about all the trauma that my kid has been through that I didn't even know
about. until fairly recently. We knew about some things that had happened outside of our home, but you know, they had gone to therapy as a teenager, but now going back. And it's just been such an uphill battle, even getting them in, I don't know how it is in other states. But apparently, in Oklahoma, there's a shortage of therapists and psychiatrist I don't know, because they've been on a waitlist for months and months, and just trying to get in to see someone is, is a huge challenge.
And these places, they put up barriers that don't need to be there, there's a right now the clinic that she felt, I mean, that had to stand that they found see there, there's my brain later, I'll do like 10 times a day. And I haven't slipped up like that in months. But anyway, I have to do it right now, while I'm being
recorded. But that's just showing you how real it is, the struggle is real, that your brain is gonna, gonna slip up like that, and you just have to keep, like, my husband at one point said, I'm never gonna get it. And my daughter stopped him and said, You can't say that, that is not helpful. That is, that hurts me, and it feels like you're giving up, you can't do
that you can't give up. So I'm kind of almost blind that I slipped up because then that's like a kind of a teachable moment that is going to happen, it doesn't mean that you're not ever going to get it and, you know, always trying and keep reassuring your kid that you are trying that you're not going to give up on them. But um, about the mental health struggle, they finally found a place that is LGBTQ affirming, which is part of the big struggle here in Oklahoma, is that so many places
aren't. And that's, that's the number one thing, they want to make sure that if they go to a therapist, the therapist isn't going to be trying to convert them or something, you know, because that's still very much a thing here. But the other thing this place, they have to you have to show up at eight o'clock in the morning, or before eight o'clock in the morning, to sign up for an appointment. And then you have to come back another day at eight o'clock in the
morning. And that's just when you're talking about people who have intersectional identities, other things going on, like my daughter has a seizure disorder doesn't drive. So that means someone else has to go with them that early in, that's got to drive 45 minutes or so to get there. Things like that. It just why are we putting up barriers that don't need to be there. So that's, that's the primary challenge I've had is just being able to better support their mental health, especially with
the disabilities. And obviously, getting the the pronouns right and constantly. It's, it's, it's for me, I taught English. So for me, it's an interesting look at how our brains are wired for grammar that we learn grammar early on. And that is what it feels like for me is that it's just a struggle for my brain to pick the right word. It's not that I mean, I want to use the right words, it's that my brain is automatically going for what it used to use a year ago.
Listen, Kaylee and I misgendered myself off, so it's okay.
Thank you for that. Tansen and by the way, since since you there I want to tell you have such a lovely smile. And for podcast listeners who aren't watching on YouTube, you're missing it but Tamsin, your smile is just the best.
Thank you so much.
I want to back up when Tamsin said I misgendered myself regularly and we're a couple years old now it happens. I have referred to my friend's daughter as he a couple of times it's sometimes it comes out like you said you've got to retrain your brain and I love the point you made about your husband being very direct and saying I'll never get this too I continue to
work on getting this right. Cuz you know, mindsets are really big, important part of this and those are conversations that I have to have with my own family. My own mother like Mom, come on for a while you They keep working on this. And reminding them that they can get to it is is an important part of the process.
Thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah, it's just it's a continuous journey, you know? Well, we'll get there.
Our producer, Vanessa, she misgendered herself too. Yeah. And I have to tell you, Kaylee and I'm an English teacher too. So and, and I told Tamsin, she reminds me of my high school senior English teacher, she just has that smile, and she just has that. I don't know, there's something about Tamsin that I just like, She reminds me of Miss Barber. I love Miss Barber. So I told her that.
Nice. Well, I know you talked a little bit about some of the challenges that you faced, you want to dive into that a little bit more. Or we'd like to kind of pivot towards a conversation about the misinformation that goes on, you know, around trans people and what it means to be, you know, transitioning, I want to talk to both eventually, but I've given you a choice which way you want to go.
Now we can we can go into that the misinformation. I'm certainly not an expert on that. But it, it just bothers me so much when I hear people talking about the gay agenda and the trans agenda and all this that, that they're, that apparently people think there's some big conspiracy to turn their kids gay or trans, or let's, and if, if they're looking at the fact that there seem to be more trans kids and more non binary kids these days, I think it has more to do with understanding what the options
are. Because I know, Nate has told me before that growing up, they just didn't realize that not being either boy or girl was an option. And honestly, I didn't realize that was an option for them. I mean, we, we tried to bring up our kids, so that they could just be who they were, if they wanted to, you know, name was one who, one minute would be playing in the dirt with bugs, and the next minute would be, you know, going and putting on a princess dress
and playing with Barbies. And you know, so whatever they wanted to do, that was okay. But we didn't know that there was an option to be, you know, that you, you don't have to be a girl or a boy, I didn't know that at the time. They didn't know that. And so I think that that is what we're seeing if more kids are saying, I'm non binary. It's just because they realize that that is an option that they you know, that oh, the way I'm
feeling. Make sense, because I don't fit into this box that you've put me in,
totally. I growing up, I had a sense that I was different from from other people. I didn't have the language for a long time. But I remember my parents divorced when I was three. So my dad was taking me to my first day of school in Florida, and I live in Florida anymore. And we had to wear a school uniform. And I remember when we pulled up and he had like this baby blue Volkswagen Beetle that he liked. We pulled up to school that day.
And I asked why am I not wearing what those people were wearing? Which was the girls? Why wasn't I wearing the skirt? And they're uniform? And he was like, What are you talking about your boys are that and for me? That's like my first memory of like, well, wait a minute. I'm a What do you mean, I'm a boy. Right, you know, and I have those incidences and then I think, not that specific story. But things like that are relatively common for those of us that had that sense early on. But we didn't
really have language. It wasn't until I got to a teenager that I even realized that something like this was possible. But it was still took a while to formulate for me and then to actually have the courage to go
forward. Right. But you know, one of the things that I wanted to talk about really quickly because you know, you mentioned that like the the incidence of LGBTQ people and trans and non binary people specifically throughout various cultures and history is pretty, it's evidential, you can see that it's happened right? You know, we have two spirit individuals with Native American communities and quite a few Native American tribes recognize more than both genders or one or the other.
Some had for some had six. You can see this in China. You see this with the Hegira. In India, there's quite a few examples of how this is. This has been a thing since pretty much as long as humans have existed as well as being lesbian, gay, bi queer, right? It has been the the Christian patriarchal movement that that happened with colonization. of the West that brought it in resets all of the norms around what gender should
be in their eyes, right. And every culture across the world across history always decides at some point, what is what is a normal part of their society and what they can consider deviant. And across societies, those will be all kinds of things. And there are quite a few societies where people like us were not only accepted in normal, but given heightened positions, spiritual positions, right? So this narrative that we're new that people that there's this plague with transgenderism is
entirely a false narrative. If we just bother to read it take a long view in history, we'll see this so much. It's not a new thing. The differences we have a very globalized society where people are learning about themselves, they can see themselves in me and Tamsin and other people were MJ Rodriguez or Elliott page, right? And that gives them the language to start to talk about it. Whereas those of us that are of a certain age didn't have anybody to look at it to see that.
Absolutely. I'm so glad you brought that up that you mentioned that because yes, it has been around for as long as humans have been around. The fact that I didn't know, is a product of our society and our education system of, of people controlling information and the fact that I wasn't curious enough, I guess, to, to go and learn about this stuff on my own. But yeah, it's, it's there.
And I think a lot of these legislators who are trying to legislate LGBTQ people out of existence, especially trans people, they just want to shut down that information and just
keep people in the dark. But but you know, social media now that didn't exist back when I was a teenager, because I'm old, that has really opened the doors to all of that information that you're talking about that, you know, people can see themselves in, in you and other folks, and see that there are other ways to be than the box that that society is trying to put them in.
And I want to tag off on what both of you said about the history. My dad was in the military, and I'm going to well, I'll date myself. He was in the military in the 1950s, through 1976. And being a and he worked under officers, he was a he was an NCO, he worked under officers who did that. What was typical at the time, married on the surface, having a family, but leading a second secret life of being gay. And so I said, like you said, it's nothing new. And I don't, I don't understand the
thought process of it. And yeah, you can argue, because, you know, people are going to argue the Bible and everything like that, Sodom and Gomorrah, you go back even further in time to where, when? Which one is men, and that this is nothing new. You know, I mean, you had shepherds having sex with animals, because they didn't
have partners. And then that led from that, to the more of the gay, but these agendas, that's, that's so perfect, and the propaganda, the agendas with the propaganda that you both nailed it.
And I just want to say, since you brought up Sodom and Gomorrah, I was brought up in a really conservative religious environment, and was always taught that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality. And that is so not true. If you go read that story in the Bible couldn't be farther from the truth. That is not what that's about. I won't go into all of the details of the story, except that it's more disturbing than any of the books that they're trying to get
banned in libraries nowadays. It is not about being gay.
Well, if you look back at Roman times, your history tells us that, you know, high society in Rome, that there there were literally just clubs of gay men and you were expected to take on a younger male as a lover that that was expected not just one
but multiples. I mean, we have so many instances throughout history where the LGBTQ community as a whole is is so forward facing in history and so open and then we got to this point where they were basically just started to be, you know, shut out and treated as father when they were so prominent all
throughout history. I won't go into it but a lot of our figures are you know, there's a lot of our very prominent figures are actually get you read their you know their life stories you read their personal diaries you read all sorts of stuff you'll find they're trans, they're they're gay, they're lesbian, they're thereby they're, they're everywhere on the spectrum. And it's maddening because historians just go, they were
the best of friends. While they lived together, they shared the bed together, they went everywhere together, but yeah, sure they were the best of breath.
Absolutely. Does. Tamsin? Do you want to share any story about your finding the language yourself? You know, since we were kind of touching on that earlier,
yeah, I'm one of those older elder trans people at this point, I guess. I found the language when I was nine or 10. Not sure. If you're all familiar with Christine Jorgensen that I heard about her growing up. And then I had a word for what I felt didn't know what to do with
it. So you know, then you could probably relate, you just kind of bury that down and try to be what society wants you to be, which ultimately doesn't work out all the end, which is what's so frustrating about all of this anti trans legislation focused on kids, it's like, they're still going to be themselves. If they survive this stuff. they're eventually going to turn around and be themselves. Just let it
happen. Because not one of us on this call is out there recruiting people to become trans. I wouldn't want I wouldn't want anybody to do this. I except for myself, but I would not push anybody in being this way. It's it's a hard road.
I love that you bring that up, there is generally within our community, a very accepted rule that you don't, you know, crack people's bags, right? That while someone may come to you to talk about where they are with that potential journey, your job is not to lead them down that road, right? We don't talk people into this, we're just here like, Hey, I'm a sounding board had been down this road, here's what you may want to know, if you go that route, but there's no recruiting
going on. No one's recruiting for this lifestyle. Like, like you said, it's a hard road, right? You know, from the perspective of just what we're talking about here in society, the politics and legislation of it This, for me, the the worry of all the people that I would lose, and I love no one in my life, right, I spent so much time agonizing about stepping onto this path, and none of my worries came true. I mean, they're coming through legislatively now. But at the time, they didn't come true.
And, you know, that narrative that people love to put out there of oh, you know, you're just doing this and you can do X, Y, and Z, that's just utter garbage, no one would go through something like this. And risk everything, literally everything from their stability, their job, their family, their friends,
their place in society. Not to mention the, you know, some of the health risks that can come along with this, to get somewhere you know, to be good at a sport or to get into a women's bathroom or to get ahead at work, that's just not a thing that happens, it just doesn't happen. And just in the same way that you the rest of our community, the LGBT part of the community can't You can't force someone to be gay by queer, trans, there is just no way to
do that. And there's quite a few really interesting studies out there that show people that wind up on some sort of medical intervention, that ones that kind of reverse in their hormones a little bit, they go through what we go through with our own dysphoria, right? And they start to feel suicidal about being forced against their own what they feel against their own will to be to go the other direction, right? You cannot make someone want to do this, just to get something out of
life. It has to be a very deep choice that people make, which they make for a variety of reasons, but you can't talk Luna into being trans
to that possible,
and just want to reply to everything you just said. That's awesome. Luna, wouldn't that be fun? It's just a lot of fun. That's it. Yeah. But you're absolutely right, Eric, but you know, it's like yeah, you know, no one, no one would willingly choose this path. Because it is one of the hardest paths you can take. You are more likely to suffer loss and pain from taking this path and setbacks at work and ostracism, or ostracized. I'm sorry, you know the word I'm talking about. I'm very tired.
You just up still many hardships, no one would willingly choose this one, my ex husband told me that I was turning our son gay, or trans and I, you know, I have the conversation like, one, I'm not turning them anything, I'm telling them that they do not have to just follow the standard rules, they can do whatever they want, they can find what fits. And as such, it has been a real journey for him. But it's been
more of a journey. Because he's trying to find a label that fits not because society is that you're this and you have to be this and I'm pushing this on them. You know, they they're, they're, they've moved a little bit throughout the rainbow trying to find the right fit. And I'm not certain that this is the right one for them yet, like it, they've settled, they haven't really talked to me about it. I'm waiting to hear if
you're on that one. But it's just no one would choose this, you know, being being misgendered is not fun. I mean, we celebrate every single time every single time that they are properly gendered when we're out in public every single time. And they have been, you know, living living as themselves for many years now. And we go to a pizzeria, we, we still celebrate, we're like, you know what, we're going for dessert. They gendered you properly?
Let's do this. And it's just that, that love and support that unfortunately, many kids don't see. So it's hard. It's just, it's just hard to know when to use it. Yeah.
When you when you decide it's time to set your your feet on this path, it's it's a very difficult thing to do for for many people, and you just can't talk people into it. But I love that you support being gendered correctly with dessert, I need no reason to have dessert. But I love that reason. And I will be choosing that as I go out to dinner or shore. Okay, we are starting to get down towards the end of our time. So I wanted to pivot us to one last question. And that is, what advice do you
have Kayleen. And you know, it really frankly, anybody at this point for supporting people who are about who are stepping onto this path, either as parents or even children.
I think just and someone talked about it earlier, just just love your kids. I don't understand the parents who turn off that love somehow, when their kid comes out to them, or they kick them out or are incredibly cruel to them in other ways, I don't get it like for me, when you have a kid, you have like a an unspoken contract with that kid that you're always going to love them and support
them, no matter what. And I know in this state, I guarantee you there are people who would support their kid if they were accused of a horrible crime, but we'd kick them out if they came out as trans. And I don't I don't get that. So just just love your kid support them and, and touching on what Luna said, as well as you know, my own experience with my kids understand that those labels might be a little fluid that they're still figuring things
out. And, you know, I, we just had a conversation with our middle daughter that has has, you know, came out to us as gay when she was 15. She's now 27 Almost, and now is finding out who I might be by? We don't know, we'll figure it out as we go. It's okay. And, and you know, there's still our kids no matter what. So it's the same with with the non binary, you know that whatever labels they decide, fit them best, and help them make sense of the world better. Help them live in the
world better. I'm all for them.
As as a parent of a an adult trans child who's definitely she's had a harder time than me, I think I'm listen to what your kids have to say. Right? They're telling you they are. And if we're honest, every kid in the world is going to face something difficult in their life. It's going to happen and when you turn your back on them, if it was something financial, if it was going through a divorce, if it was something with their kid, you
wouldn't write. And if you did, your kid being trans isn't the thing that was the problem, most likely, right? So listen to your kids, be patient with where they are and take them for what they are that you know, their place. I don't like thinking of it as a gender spectrum and think of it as like a four way chart right? Because that really covers everything better. Their place on that can move up and down based on how they feel over
days, weeks, years, right. But one thing we know this is really well studied right? gender affirming care has a 1% Regret way. You know, life saving surgeries like open heart surgery doesn't enjoy 1% Regret rate it has 20% regret. Right? Right. So let's be really honest about the science that was brought out earlier, let's be really honest about what's going on out there. The narrative is dead wrong, and it's gonna get
people killed. gender affirming care, treating people as as who they say they are, is the right thing to do. And that's loving your kid. That's really loving your kid.
Amen, sister. Yes. And, and gender affirming care is life saving care. The other piece of advice I would give is, if you're on this journey is, is learn as much as you can from from many people. I have been, you know, I, I'm a an instructional design consultant means I, I create learning experiences, I design training, things like that. And I care a lot about making sure that those experiences that I design are
inclusive of everyone. And so I'm always trying to learn more about other people's experiences, people with experiences different from my
own. But especially for understanding what my kids are going through, just you know, watching movies, documentaries, following people on social media, it's why I started listening to this podcast, you know, I just anything that you can do to help understand their lived experience better is going to help you support them better and help bring you closer together.
I, I totally see it from a parent side. And from an ally slash teacher side, I'm not in the classroom anymore. I'm also I'm a Learning Design Specialist. But when I was in the classroom, I had some of the best parent teacher relationships with my LGBTQ kids, parents that accepted them. Because they knew if there was somebody on campus, I get up, I get a message. Hey, so and so is having a bad day. Do you mind checking on them? Guess
what my priority became? You know, though, those kids and it's like you said learn, you know, learn their language learn, you know, work with them. Because if they can have another supportive adult in their life, that gender affirming, is that helps them mentally to. And I mean, I just had that's the one thing I have said this. Tamsin was probably on the call. I think Vanessa was and Vanessa popped in our producer and said, Don't be your kids first bully.
I totally agree with that. But I've said this LGBTQ community for me, that is one of the most welcoming communities it's a safe community. There it and Erica, I echo you completely and Tamsin, nobody is trying to push the trans agenda on you. If anything, they want your help. Or that affirming. I'm, I'm accepted. And that I have never in any of my dealings with any of the LGBT community ever felt that I wasn't accepted. And I don't I'm not one of those allies. I'm rubbing out No, I
don't do that. I like a very covertly. And I and when I meet somebody, it's like, I have more family, you know, is that's how I see my sis first. I see I see my, I see my people as my sisters as my brothers. I don't. My niece doesn't get that support at home, except by her dad, who's my brother. Her mom basically told her she was gonna go to hell in a handbasket. And so when she came out to me, it was what do you need me for? someplace safe, you come to me.
And luckily, one of her grandmothers is very accepting of her as well. And so she knows she knows who she can count on. And that's sometimes that's the biggest thing is just having somebody you can count on. Yeah. And that's that as an ally, that's what I that's why I want to that's why I am an ally and have been for many years. So I applaud the I always say the being brave in finding out who you are, and not you know, trying to miss gender yourself. You know, be the true you.
That's the most authentic person you can be. And Kayleen you got my support with May I in fact, I would love to talk to you about work, but on a different Yeah. I'll contact you later.
I mean, On LinkedIn and Yeah,
well, let me just start to wrap it up here, right, like one final point I want to make is that and I think many of us have touched on this in ways but I want to call it out pretty specifically trans and non binary people are not a monolith. Right? So one of my first trans mentors, Joanne, Joanne Cavani, told me that when which is we're all different, who Tasman is, as a trans woman of not who I am. Who NE is as a non binary person is not when
someone else's is. If you are getting to know someone in your circle that is trans non binary, whether it's your child, your family member, your friends, your parents, find out who they are, find out who they are as trans, non binary and support that person, right? Our journeys are all different, because we're all individual people. And frankly, we are not here bucking the patriarchy and throwing the ginger binario way to listen to what someone else tells us we
need to be. We're going to be ourselves and your job as our allies is to support us and being ourselves. Okay, before we wrap it up and say goodbye, does anybody where can we find you all
by me on LinkedIn at Kayleen Holt.
Lisa Magnuson at LinkedIn.
Tamsyn, where can we find you?
I'm also on LinkedIn, TS Dobson
I'm on LinkedIn as Luna Jade. But you can also find me on my website lj.com.
And you can find me on LinkedIn. We're big on LinkedIn family here, Erica and Vogel also Oh, Erica, like, Oh my God. Oh, H E R. I see. a.com Oh, Erica. All right, everybody. Just want to thank you all for joining us. For episode four. We already got four episodes of this thing done. It's amazing to talk to all of you. I loved this
this time today. For those of you who are listening, please remember to get up there and like and subscribe and all the ways that you can to this podcast on podcast platforms. And on YouTube. This is a new series and we need your help to boost it up. We've got to spread this out. We've got to continue to build this community, right. Because we're working to build that community of love support, actionable information, and community. We need your help to get there. We'll see you all soon. Bye