Episode 19 - Gender Diversity with Che Barnes

yourself? And would you also humor me with my icebreaker question today? A little summer question, which is what is your favorite kind of ice cream?

it. That'd be amazing. And if I could put it on top of a brownie, and it's even more amazing, so very specific.

And yeah, I deliver talks and workshops, have an online course. And do lots of things like that introducing slightly different framework for understanding gender diversity. So yeah, that's me.

had the time yet. But I thought it would be fun to talk more about your work here on the pod. And I'm going to mention to prep for this conversation. I listened to the most recent episode of the LinkedIn live event series nonbinary corner that is hosted by Margie Marchetti, Lou Costello, and B Gilmore. Apologies if I mispronounce any of those names, but those are the hosts of nonbinary corner. I just want to let our listeners know about

that. If you liked this conversation, check out that one too, because it was really great. So without further ado, let's get into it. I've got some questions for Che. And really the first one is what led you to this path of becoming a gender diversity trainer.

But invariably, I'd be the one that would end up on a stage in front of the whole kind of like staff team talking about things and I love that I love taking complex stuff, simplifying it down and explaining it to people. I just love doing that. So trainings always been a thing for me. Gender Diversity started for me with a dislike I can inherently inbuilt dislike and repulsion around gender

disparity. So between men and women, and so in the corporate world, I experienced a lot of kind of sexism or certainly assumptions and projections on how I should behave because I was a woman. And I found that really quite uncomfortable. And I'd noticed that some behaviors that other people were allowed to do, like swearing in the boardroom, were frowned on when I did it. And I didn't really

like that. And so it started me down a journey of investigating what really is the difference between us like really, like, you know, kind of why why do we allow boys, somethings and girls other things? And why do we have these assumptions? And I kind of started down that road. And one of the things I came across on my path was a lot of professors in the biology space, essentially saying that sex

isn't binary, like so. I mean, I had this understanding that gender isn't binary, you know, and there are lots of different gender kind of manifestations and expressions. But the biological sex was not binary. And I was a bit like, why. And so I went on this huge kind of like, rabbit hole tangent, where I just started researching biological sex and its non binary nature and doing loads of investigation and essentially totally satisfied myself that biological sex wasn't binary.

And then I think, you know, that's when I started overlaying it with gender diversity, or gender identity. And so I'm thinking Hold on, neither of these things are binary. Maybe they actually tie up in some way, maybe there is a physiological underpinning to our felt gender identity and experience. So yeah, that was my little, my little path into this arena. And the more I've gone along the path and more passionate I've become, the more stuff I found that has just totally exploded what I thought

I knew into smithereens. Yeah, so now I'm really passionate about sharing that.

fascinating. And that's really, I'm glad you brought up just the fact that sex, biological sex is also a spectrum, because that's really one of the things that has fascinated me about your work, I as well have long known that gender was a spectrum, but kind of still had in my head that, you know, biological sex was, was binary and, and more and more information has come out more and more research and studies, kind of showing improving, giving various examples of sex, biological sex

being a spectrum as well. And I know that you often use a lot of examples from nature to highlight this to show that it's, it's not even just humans with our big brains coming up with this idea, but that there are also examples in the animal kingdom. And I'll kind of lead

into that a little bit. So I I've, you know, I've read that there is a and you've talked about that there's a pride of lions that's been observed in Botswana, where there's a group of female lions who began to grow mains, and act more like the male lions, and the Alpha trans lion grew the biggest mane. And could you talk about that a little bit? Is there anything big on leaving out? Or you know, are they still being observed?

you. Yeah. How it essentially evidences that there was something that happened in that environment and in the social structure and like, well, we'll get on to kind of like the Watson how's this but at the same point in time, five lionesses started growing manes, and started doing things like marking their territory and roaring, which are kind of like more male kind of behaviors, and they were fighting a bit more

bit of infighting happening. And yeah, there was definitely this point where one of them kind of won so there was this like sparring between these five lionesses that were all green memes, and the one that one, her name continued to grow, whereas the ones that didn't when their memes receded and shrink back, so it was like it wasn't like there was something genetic that happened that these five lionesses suddenly pass some kind of pubescent point or something. And something changed

in their physiology. There was a point at which all five of them somehow went as if to do something, one of them one and then the others went back. So there's a really interesting kind of suggestion there of some kind of fluidity and some kind of changeability in biological sex and so we see this in all sorts of different species. So in a Ranga tangs, there's a fluidity to their secondary sexual characteristics. So their cheeks get bigger when they win the fight and they shrink when

then they lose the fight. And so they kind of they're more male or less male, depending on what's happening with their social structure, and social environment. So, yeah, there's this really interesting thing. And there's lots of other lionesses where there are memes

have developed. And I think something that's really interesting is researchers often say, Well, there's obviously some kind of testosterone variation as if that means that it's not anything to do with like, a transition or something. Whereas my sense is that hormones fluctuate, stress, hormones fluctuate, sex hormones fluctuate, and they can fluctuate based on an internal thing that they're reacting to, but they can also change in relation to external

environment. And so this idea that hormonal variations might result in changes to our physiology is something that I think there's there's loads of room for us to investigate with the human species. Yeah,

they're the same thing. They're identical, they literally their physical structure, the way that they, they literally, the whole thing like is that they're just identical. And so in hyenas, both male and female hyenas have penises. In the female, they're called the pseudo penis. But actually, they look identical. And what happens is when a male when a female hyena makes with a male hyena, she rolls up her butt her pseudo penis, so that she can actually meet with the

male. When to female hyenas mate, which happens quite regularly, they kind of have to have a choice who rolls up and who doesn't. So it's kind of like this really interesting kind of fluidity and physiological kind of like adaptability that I think what you know, when we when we go back to what we've been taught in school in primary and secondary school biology, we were taught something that was so simplistic that this kind of blows our mind, but it's like but it's it's so naturally

evident. And yeah, intersects black bears is another species where there's a lot of examples again, and if you search if you search bears and intersects bears, I mean, it's the same with polar bears and grizzly bears. But there's one particular one that I referenced a lot and intersects black bear, where she has a vagina, but had the anterior wall of her vagina is also developed into a penis. So she has both she's kind of hermaphroditic. But she's had

babies. So she's got pregnant, she's given birth, she her you know how her mommy or lactating she is feeding her young. And so she's intersex. So she has a combination of vagina and penis. And in bears, that's quite common. And in some bears, they actually mate and give birth through the penis like structure that has developed from the clitoris. So it's actually through that kind of like pseudo penis that they're mated with. And then through that device that they actually give birth.

So it's, it's mind blowing when we get into the natural world. And we see all of this variability and all of this kind of, yeah, fluidity and changeability and non binary pneus. of biological sex. Yeah.

scenario, is a small number. I don't think it's as small as people think there are some really interesting studies that I mean, essentially, to my mind, based on the research I've done, we're looking at a minimum of one in 500 people, and it's actually probably closer to one in 50 depending on what you include under the intersex umbrella. So one in 50 is the same number of people who have

red hair in the world. It's a lot of people it's a lot a lot of people and yeah, and then when we look to the animal kingdom, I am not surprised if you search intersex bear or if you search lioness with me As you will find lots and lots of examples, both in captivity and in the wild. It seems quite a normal phenomenon.

now. But, um, but I think that it's interesting, because the, I feel like humans, often, if there's any discussion around intersex, which there's not a lot, because we don't talk about. But if there is, you know, it's generally that that is corrected. Right, it is corrected through without any doubt nonconsensual surgery on a

very, very young person. And it's, you know, what I find unique about what you're mentioning about black bears, is that is that they are that they reproduce that they, you know, have a full biological capacity. And it really kind of, you know, has me start to think about, oh, what if we maybe, like, you know, didn't mess with people who are born that way. And, you know, maybe just let them be and let them decide what they wanted to do at a later time, right. But

issues. And they had to resist, resist, resist, resist and not have, you know, their daughter operated on from the point that their daughter hit, I can't remember what 1617 or 18, but they stopped contacting the parents and started contacting her saying you have to have an operation, there was something physically wrong with you, you need this operation, and she continued to resist, the operation is now happily married, is living really, really happy. There have been no

problems. But the pressure that is put on the parents of intersex children to have them operated on is really quite shocking. And it's interesting when I mean, there was one major study done that essentially kind of looked at all the global evidence from about 45 years to to come up with this number of one in 50. People being intersex and somehow not fitting scientific criteria. And it was I think it was criticized by one person in particular, that kind of like, tore it down. So these

numbers are ridiculous. And it's like, the minimum number that I've managed to come up with mean even like, I think the UK stats are one in 300 People are operated on close to birth to make their genitals fit male or female, because their genitals are either a combination, so they're either a combination of penis and vagina, or it might be that the gonads and the genitals

don't match. So it might be testes, and a vagina or ovaries and a penis, or the genitals themselves are kind of indistinguishable, there's not really anything in terms of one or the other. And so these operations one in 300 people in the UK, the last stat I saw, but certainly between one and 501, in the 1000s people wherever you are in the world are being operated on at birth to make them male or female. And to fit this binary biological sex construct. It's horrible. Yeah.

little bit with the lions. Yeah. I like the idea that are people born this way with differently wired brains, or is this is this something that develops throughout their lifetime? Or do we have enough information to know that conclusively at this point?

So it can be interesting when we talk about brain science, because it's kind of there's been a lot of studies to show that essentially, there isn't such a thing as a male brain or a female brain, it's just not that straightforward. Like everything is on a spectrum. And so I like to think of when I'm talking about masculine or feminine, I try to use the terms yin and yang, if they're terms

you're familiar with. So it's kind of like Yin being kind of like almost soft, feminine, gentle kind of those kind of energies, with Yang being the stronger fiercer, more assertive

kind of energies. And so if we look at all of the people assigned female at birth, and put them over there, and all of the people assigned male over birth, and we assigned male at birth, and we put their kind of like brain pattern things into kind of like a thing, and we look at the will be a small difference, you know, so I mean, not as much as might have been implied, we're not different species were the same species. And it's all on a spectrum. But

there is a difference. When we look at transgender individuals, and this, what this study did is it looked at these estrogen signaling pathways in the brain that create either a male Yang patterning or a female Yin patterning. And what they found was that in transgender individuals, there were lots of different ways that these pathways varied that that wasn't

evidence in cisgender people. So in the control group of cisgender, people, these variations were not evident at all, just not not to be seen. And also in very large controlled DNA databases, they weren't to be seen apart from a very small group. So there are a small group of people who are saying, you know, from three, four or five years old, I'm somehow not in the right body, I am in the wrong body, that actually, it turns out their brain patterning is kind of at the extreme opposite end to

where their body is. So if they were assigned male at birth, their brain patterning is actually right down the Yin end of the brain patterning spectrum, or if they're assigned female at birth, their brain patterning is right down the ying end of the brain patterning spectrum. And this is all to do with what happens with estrogen in the development of the baby. And I think the easiest way to explain it is that genitalia and the brain develop at different points in in that kind of like

cycle. So the body will be developing, the genitalia will develop, I'm not sure which way round it is, but the one will develop and then something will shift in the estrogen signaling pathways, and the brain or the genitals will will then develop in the opposite way. And so literally, we are talking about a physiological brain difference for people who are experiencing themselves as not in alignment with the sex they've been assigned at birth, which makes

total sense. And when people talk about biological sex being binary, you know, not only do we have intersex people, but we now have this evidence that would suggest that trans binary people who want to swap from one to the other also have a physiological underpinning for that. Which means that, you know, kind of we're definitely not talking about a society where we're just men and women. There's evidence that shows that we're so much more than that. And it's much more complicated.

So now that I fixed that problem, everything is everything's become much more clear. Everything's been aligned. And yeah, it it just makes so much more sense that I, the estrogen is what I've needed my entire life. And now that I have it, it's things everything clicks.

complicated. And I don't even think we really understand sex hormones as well as we need to like how kind of it's not a female hormone and a male hormone. Like, there's a lot of stuff being done at the moment with kind of menopause showing that women need testosterone in menopause. It's kind of like an how, you know, we would just estrogen being required for the masculinization of the brain.

And there's also I kind of wrote it down actually kind of what was the name of the and roast and edia which is the precursor to estrogen and testosterone? I mean, what's that? You know, what's that? What, what are our different levels and so on one of the sets of lions actually, when they were looking at, you know, does this line so that's that's gonna mean have high levels of testosterone. And she didn't, but what she did have was high levels of cortisol and

the Andros that Debian. So yeah, there's all these different hormones. So again, I think understanding the hormone profiles, and understanding the way that the brain works, is a huge part of gender, and sex science that we're only really starting to look at now. And I think that's where the natural world helps us to go. Yeah, this is not just a human thing. And there is definitely something physiological going on here.

like this on the inside. And it's like, wow, when are we going to divorce this idea that we should be able to tell how somebody feels by looking at them? You know, be that how stressed they are? Or be that you know, kind of how, okay, they are with their own agenda. You know, it's kind of crazy that looking at somebody, we should be able to read their internal world. And why wouldn't we just trust how people tell us they feel like,

community here. And I have heard of some other examples that are, some of which are, I think, you know, earlier in history, but I, you've also mentioned that there are current cultures like right now in the world, that are more accepting of more complex ideas

of gender and sex. And I think in the, you know, here in the West, here, in America, and in Europe a lot, I feel like there's, you know, it's just such a, such a conversation about, you know, men and women and focus on that, and, you know, trans is not real, and all of this crap. And, and like, I feel like we don't talk about as much here, the current cultures that exist right now, in the world who really do acknowledge a more complex gender and sex

structure. So do you have any examples of that, that you could share?

the Metis. In the pool, are people who are assigned male at birth, but who assume the carriage and mannerisms and appearance and dress of women, but they don't consider themselves gay. They consider themselves a third gender who are attracted to straight men, and that's how they're recognized and the whole of the society. That's how they're seen. It's totally normal. It's like, Ah, you're Metis you know, Okay, and everybody understands this. So, yeah, so that's that's

one that I really like. Because I think it's, it's great that that's actually now legally recognized. Because I think that's, you know, that's where this can kind of get complicated because even though people know how they feel, and we can change documents and things like that, I think it's without the legal recognition, it makes life incredibly difficult. Yes. So that's a great one. And then the other one that I absolutely

love. I mean, based on all the research I've done, I mean, this tribe seems to have it totally right to me, and it's the biggest people, and they're in Sulawesi in Indonesia. And they recognize three sexes, so male, female, and intersex which, as far as I can tell, that is what we are biologically male, female, or intersex. And then they recognize five genders, so they recognize male men, they recognize male women, they recognize female women, and they recognize female men, and then

recognize non binary people. So they recognize those five different genders. And so someone who's born male, could arguably, you know, be any of the three. So either male man, they could be male woman, or they could be non binary. And then anybody born an assigned female could be any one of the corresponding three or somebody born intersex could go in any one of the directions that felt right for them. And it's all just totally understood. So,

yeah. Bisou is the name given to non binary people in that locale. But I think you know, you referenced ancient cultures as well. But if we go back to like the Talmud, in the Kabbalah, some of the ancient Jewish texts that precede the Bible, they talk about intersex and transgender people like it's totally normal. So yeah, it's interesting. It's like these current cultures that recognize

more than two genders. They're actually just holding on to the way we were, and they haven't had the binary gender construct come in and overly overlaid to the degree that they've forgotten where they came from.

priestess. And actually, the bringing in of both genders, or both binary and of ways into a more non binary kind of presence was something that was revered. Absolutely, and celebrated and lauded and yeah, very much. Yeah, recognized as a good thing.

public forum. I mean, I know you have your course, which I like we'll touch on a little bit before we end but I, you know, I've noticed that you know, you're you're delving into such a touchy topic, and I feel like the way that you help facilitate this horse in the comments is very open, and pretty open minded and really trying to get people to discuss. And then of course, sometimes there's a point where, you know, it's really evident that like, this is not going anywhere good. And

we have to cut it off. But I, I've been it's I mean, it's really admirable, honestly, how you've been approaching that and kind of having that discourse. So I just wanted to ask, like, when, when somebody challenges your views online? How do you decide whether it's worth it to engage with them or not, you know, or whether it's whether it's better to kind of like, shut it down before it gets really nasty, you know, really hateful,

anybody. So even if someone's trying to bruise me, I'm still gonna try and sidestep slightly not to bruise them back. So I think that's, that's really important for me in terms of how I want to conduct myself, because that's how I would rather people conduct themselves. So we have to kind of be the change we wish to see right, and try and try and set a standard in that in that way.

And the other one that I think is kind of like why I sometimes hold on past the point that others might not is that someone said to me home is a much, much nicer place when everyone is gathered there. And I know that seems a bit corny, but I have this idea that wouldn't it be nice if everyone could agree, I don't, I don't want us to end up, you know, on two sides of the bridge, hurling stones at each other, and this side wins,

and that side loses. I just want everyone to come over the bridge, you know, I just I want I want everyone to come over. And I have this sense that when I do eventually just go nope, that's it. We're not getting anywhere here today, I would still love it if that person might come back in a year's

time. So I still would like to end it nicely so that they might come back, you know, when they maybe learned something else or something else drops or the seed that we planted on that post, you know, grows a little bit that they would still feel welcome to return to continue the conversation. And so, yeah, I've actually I've got about 10 people who are now really really supportive, supportive followers, who when they first came onto one of my posts were like, Yeah, this is all absolute

nonsense. And now they're following me. They're following my work. And they'll occasionally tag me in posts that people in their network have like said something and they'll tag me and and I think I just I think it's about the groundswell we talked about it before we went live, I think this idea that, you know, through creating a mask of a raising of understanding and awareness of the actual truth around biological sex, gender identity, and the fluidity of

it, all of everything else. And I think we'll we'll create a kind of like, a size of a movement, that it will be undeniable, you know, whereas every person I cut off, or I've had that little chance to try and win them into the ally camp, you know, I kind of feel like no, I'm gonna I give people a little bit longer than most would, I think, but yeah, and I have had some really great, each one of those I take as a huge personal success, you know, just like one person that comes from

being really grumpy, really anti really, like, you know, radically opposed to anything other than male or female. I love it when they turn. I love it. It's almost it means a lot more than the 1000s and 1000s of people who totally get what I'm saying going Yeah, great. You're You're great. I'm like, Yeah, well, that's brilliant. Course you think that they?

But you know, what, you kind of hit on there, excuse me is the is the other binary, which is the binary between us and them, right. And I think that that is really what I feel like and I think even people who would totally disagree with us about sex and gender you know, some other people can see that like that is one of the things that really is kind of tearing our emotional world apart right now.

So I just I think it's really great to have that to have that thought you know about the bridge of like, you know, let's let's all cross the bridge together. Even if we're not looking in the same place, you know, even if we're not 100% on the same page, you know, how can we how can we bring it together and and not not be so divided into that? That major binary of us and yeah,

makes total sense. I might. Yeah, it makes total sense. It's just total sense. So yeah, I mean, I'm really drawn to go over to sort of crazy to meet the biggest people to find out, you know, can someone like who is like assigned female at birth be Bisou? Because I honestly think if I'd been born in their society, I'd have been spotted as Bisou from looking at kind of this Hi. So yeah, I think that's, it's really interesting what it's done for me. And it's

just been incredible. So I think I kind of sometimes lightly say that I identify as non binary, because having looked behind the veil that behind the curtain, and I can see that biological sex isn't binary gender identity isn't binary. Why would I give myself a label that really kind of fits everybody into that kind of binary construct, it doesn't make any sense to me anymore. So it's a bit of a statement. But it is also very much how I feel. And so it's really interesting.

And I still a lot of my friends still call me my birth name, Cheryl. A lot of my friends still she heard me, I still call myself Terrell, sometimes I still see her myself. But when someone calls me che, and when people say them, me, hi, I can't even stop them. I just feel so much happier. And when I remember like to do for myself, you know, it's it's just it

feels so right. But yeah, I think we do all still live in a world where you know, I'm here being very brave on the internet, but it's kind of like, I'm almost braver on LinkedIn than I am like, with my own family and my own friends. And yeah, it's an interesting place to find myself. And I feel like I'm in transition whilst the

world is in transition. And I hope that there will be a future where, for me to transition totally and be in this new total place would be something everyone would accept about me. Without feeling like I need to close doors on friendships and things like that, which, yeah, it feels like, it's hard not to have to do that, given the background level of misunderstanding in the world at

the minute. It's very hard. So yeah, all of my research has led me into some really interesting places, I understand myself so much better. Now. I look at the me trying to fit in. I cringe some of the me trying to be a good girl or a good woman or a good wife or a good you know, all of those things. And yeah, I, I have two children myself.

They're both boys. And I really hope that the future for them and for their kids, if they have kids and for their friends will be one where they can just be who on earth, they feel like being without judgment from anyone for that. Because I think yeah, I imagine my childhood now. And I think, Gosh, that could have been more joyous, it could have been more uniquely me being me, rather than me trying to be something that didn't really fit. So yeah,

presence. That is, even though you're not anonymous, I mean, especially on LinkedIn, it's you're not you're not using like a, a handle, that's, you know, some combination of alphanumeric characters but but that, you know, it is your first name and your last name, and they can, you know, people can see like, where you worked, and generally where you live and things like that, but there was still kind of a veil of anonymity that is there that is a lot different than, than having a conversation

with someone in the same physical space, in a conversation with someone who has known you your whole life, or you've known them their whole life. I mean, it is a different. It's definitely a different set of stakes. For sure, going on there. So that's interesting. And I think, you know, generally I mean, what you know, what you said about your kids is like, I think all parents want they just want their kids to be loved and to have a good life. You know, ultimately, that's like That's

every parent's dream right? it. So that that makes sense. And I'm sure that a, there are certain ways that you have to be paving the way for your boys to be taking that on and just in in what you have decided to do and this career that you have built for yourself. So

boundaries and barriers. I think society puts in the way, you know, the embarrassment, the kind of like the desire to conform, and to watch my son being part of a group of kids who are just busting all of that out there. It's some Yeah, I'm absolutely delighted. Yeah, that's

when you were writing it? Yeah. And what you know, and what can someone expect to learn from it?

Yes, it's for these people. I think really what the course is, is it's a very, very top level overview and introduction to quite a lot the stuff we've been talking about today, but in a really, really clear and easy to understand framework that I think is useful for a variety of people, be it somebody who already understands all of this, but just doesn't know what I'm all about, and wants to understand what I'm all about. So it can be useful for them.

It's useful for somebody who doesn't understand a word of it, who just wants to kind of like find something that they can ground it. And I think that I kind of talk in the course about how, if you're trying to talk to someone who doesn't understand gender diversity at all, and you suddenly start talking about someone's right to be non binary, there's nothing for them to ground that in order for them to route it in that makes any kind of conceptual sense to

them. And so I think the whole course really is about introducing a framework and a way of helping people to understand this that they can come along with, get on board with and at the end of the guy. Yeah, I get it now. So yeah, and I mean, that could be somebody who's got an HR role within an organization, and maybe the gender piece is just something they're just not sure about. Or it could be that they're, you know, they do get it, but they wouldn't have to explain it to

somebody else. And this framework will help them explain it to other people in a way that makes sense quickly and easily. So, yeah, for anybody really. And also, I know already that actually, one of my friends showed it to their somebody else that they knew a kid that they know, and that kid is actually now recommended onto their parents, I don't know whether their parents, I hope their

parents might watch it. Because at home, they're experiencing a lot of kind of denial, or any of this being true or irrelevant in any way. So that's where the science and the natural world and the different culture stuff can be really helpful sometimes, because I think it takes us out of the realm of constructs and things that people are making up into actual facts, facts, statistics and science that are undeniable. So yeah.

removed from the situation. I mean, you know, and definitely, the scientific facts and the cultural facts, help help build that, you know, build that, excuse me build that evidence for Write, but also just, you know, having someone present it that is not the person that those people who are resistant to those ideas are so attached to, you know, and they're like, oh, it's Wait, this is not just

you. Like, and this is not just like the young people and, you know, it kind of it kind of starts to break down those barriers in that way. So, and as you mentioned a couple of minutes ago, for businesses who are looking to stay in business and will need to some of these younger, more open folks, this could be really useful. So well, um, how do people? How would people find you online? How would they find your course?

All right, let's put everything on there. All the various bits and pieces. Yeah.

You can also access the audio files, the YouTube video and audio transcripts directly on our site at transcending humanity.com where we have links now. And this is all Vanessa. I mean, I just have the spiel on this one because I've got the host hat on but Vanessa is the is the fabulous person to set all of this up and keep it all going. And we have links on our site to become a patron as well if you would like to support the show because we are currently self funded. So I think that's

about it. Thank you for joining us. And