Welcome back, everybody to the transcending humanity podcast. We are really excited to bring you a special guest today, Leo Caldwell, we'll get to his introduction in just a moment, but I want to cover the topic that we're going to talk about, right? Being trans in the workplace is difficult. And while some improvements have been made in corporate America, there's still a long way to go. To get to even close to
equitable treatment. While people in the workplace are more tolerant, there's still not enough of lesbian, gay and bisexual people, knowledge of how to care for and support equitable workplaces. For trans people, it's pretty thin on the ground in most places, we feel far less supported in the workplace, and have a harder time navigating culture and find it hard to get a promotion. I'm gonna throw a couple stats at you all. Trans people are two times as likely to be unemployed.
We are generally make 32% less than cisgendered people. More than 50% of us feel uncomfortable being out in the workplace. 25% of transgender people have lost a job due to bias around their gender identity. 75% Plus have experienced some form of workplace discrimination such as refusal of hire practices, privacy violations, harassment, physical and sexual violence on the job. And those
rates skyrocket. If you are a trans person of color, which brings me to Leo, we're going to talk about trans equity in the workplace. But first, I would love for Leo to introduce himself to you all.
Thanks for having me, Erica. Happy to be here. I've been following along as you all are recording and excited to be a part of the actual podcast. So my background is in journalism, I spent six years in newspaper newsrooms, and then I actually spent six years in the corporate training world, working for like a small family owned agency, and we worked with pharmaceutical companies, we worked with manufacturing companies. And then I moved over to a larger organization that worked with
like delta. And we just felt all this corporate training. So I started seeing really what you're talking about a lot of inequity around LGBTQ plus employees, and realizing not only inequity that people just didn't even know how to talk about it in the workplace, right. They're just like, I don't want to touch that subject, especially trans folks.
And so taking a journalism background to give me a lived experience, take my training background, I started doing, you know, I call it Training, but it's not training, I get to give presentations, I get to go into organizations, usually, I would love if they did actual training, but it's usually just be coming to talk for an hour. And so yeah, that's a little bit about my professional background. I transitioned 16
years ago, socially, yeah. And then medically, you know, over a period of five years after that, I did some transition, transition related care. So I've been out in trans, you know, for quite a while, but I was out in the workplace until seven or eight years into transition, I did not come out. So and that was on purpose, because I had a lot of transphobic stuff in the workplace, especially in a newspaper newsroom. It was not a very warm, welcoming place to be.
Yeah, and now I teach in higher ed and I teach a journalism department at Ball State and I do some, like I said, training. Yeah, and I just recently joined a nonprofit called the Gender Research Institute for therapeutic therapeutics. We are I'm sorry, the research institute of gender therapeutics, that is butcher the name. But we're seeking an FDA approved treatment for gender dysphoria, which is a big deal, because FDA approval has some preemptions to it that could offer some protections for
the state bands going on. And those are my dogs, and we're going to hear them probably a lot, because that's what they do. Normally, they're asleep right now. But whenever I do a call or I talk, they're like, Yes, I will talk as well. So yeah, that's a little bit about me. I have two dogs, obviously. And I just tried to do some work around the trans community, but also I do other things, you know, and have different jobs. Too many jobs right now.
Yeah, I totally feel that I'm kind of in the same boat in terms of feeling like I have two new jobs to treat my day job and my day job right. By the way, what are your dog's names? Oliver North, Oliver and horse. Oh my gosh. Okay. Yeah. Okay, so let's get into the meat of this topic. You know, I laid it out above, but I would really love your take on why trans equity so important kind of lay the groundwork for us to have a broader conversation.
Yeah, so I think it's so important because the thing is when trans people are in the world Place, we're breaking down kind of gender norms. I feel like and I feel like we're challenging some of the gender inequity that already exists. You know, we talked about the wage gap with women. And I think that when we start to think about gender less as a binary, and, you know, some trans people do fit into that
binary, and that's great. But oftentimes, we challenge that binary, and I think, challenging the gender binary, that's not a bad thing for the workplace, I think offers more common conversations around inequity. I think, you know, personally, all the trans people I know, are really hard workers, really, I mean, the work we've had to do to be ourselves translates into the workplace in a lot of ways.
And I think that we're, we're such valuable assets, as far as perspective taking to, you know, especially like, those of us that did have, you know, an experience as one gender in the workplace in transition, we can offer those perspectives. And I think that providing us with equity, one, you're going to attract us to your company, and I think we're great employees, like I said, too, I think it offers a space for the bigger topics about gender.
Yeah, I love one of the things that you spoke about there in that units, what we have to offer, particularly as transgender individuals, that experience actually leads to some things that businesses can lack. I know that when I was not Erica before, was good employee, I was a high performer, I, you know, worked for quite a few large companies. And afterwards, you know, some opinions changed, really, for no reason I can
point to, right. And the thing that that has blown my mind at time is everything that I've put on the table before is still there. And in fact, it's actually been enhanced my ability to connect to people to bring the human to whatever we're working on, is far better than it was before. And I was already pretty darn good at it. Right? So, you know, I, it's, it's a wild proposition to feel like who people see me as lessens my value to the company when I'm actually providing more.
Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, saw the flip right of here, it was a woman in the workplace, especially as a butch lesbian in the workplace. And the climate was not great, you know, I would speak up. And oftentimes, I felt like folks aren't hearing me or talking over me. I transitioned I so as a woman, I was in the workplace, like five years, I believe. Yeah. And so then when I transitioned, within a year, I was promoted twice. And I was like, I'm the same pulley,
nothing has changed. I mean, to your point, what has changed is I'm more comfortable now. So I offer more connection, or warmth, probably because I was pretty, pretty isolated at work before because I didn't really want to talk to people about my personal life. But then I emotions, I'm like, yo, I have the same skill set, like this is wild, you know?
It's I mean, it's, we again, offer that lens, and I think we are able to highlight some gaps and some weak points when it comes to not just about LGBTQ folks, but just in general, because we've lived that experience.
Totally. And I can say, for me, I've certainly had my own lived experience with this, and I've done, I gotta say, disclaimer, I've done pretty well. There are people that I know, from all over the place that that really struggle much more
than I do. And I think especially our non binary siblings really have even potentially more issues at play with equity, because people really seem to struggle with how they should deal with non binary people more than trans people, I think, in ways so I always want to call out like our some of our siblings struggle in different ways than maybe your I do. Right.
So how do we make the case that trans equity and frankly, obviously, equity in general, is a good business proposition for our companies?
Yeah. And obviously, it's about the dollar, right. And oftentimes, like, things don't change unless they're going to affect profits or affect the margins. And I, one of the things that I've struggled with is what's what's the return on investment, right? Why care why. And the thing I always point to is Generation Z, and not that we all all of us, no matter, you know, like, I think all generations matter, but Generation Z is extremely gender diverse, and they are already in
the workplace. And their expectations are different. I think that you know, I'm an elder millennial, and as an elder millennial, like, we kind of were like, Okay, we want to change the world, but we're not going to push too hard. And we're going to still follow the rules, and I don't think Generation Z are going to do that they're really going to
transform the workplace. And so my argument for the for more inclusion of all genders and gender Diversity is this, this push of like, these people are going to be in your workplace, and they're going to call for this, or you're not going to attract them, and it's going to cost you either to replace them, or it's going to cost you because you're not going to attract top talent, because that's the expectation.
And I mean, yeah, I would like to argue not about the dollars and say, it's just makes good sense of practice, when you have employees that are mentally well, in your workplace, they're going to perform at higher functioning levels than if they are struggling and feeling like
excluded. But I don't think I don't think I think we talk a lot about mental health, but we're, I don't think we've seen really in practice in the workplace, it's rare to see people really be supportive of you know, mental health in the workplace. Totally.
As a I'm going to out myself here... a Gen X are right. I love it. Okay, great. Awesome. You know, a cranky, I'm not really a cranky, generic, sir. But that's kind of how we think of ourselves. And today's those disaffected latchkey kids that had to let themselves in from school, right. I think there's a lot that we put on the table, but I really have enjoyed seeing our Gen Z and Millennial people come along and drive so much change, we drove change in our day. And it's continuing to happen,
right? And I think it's, it's incredibly valuable. It's incredibly wonderful to see the gender diversity that you were talking about, that's now on the table. Like, no matter what's going on right now, we're going to get to a certain point of time, when it's just not feasible for companies to ignore it, right? That's coming one way or the other, make of us about
it now. But it's coming, because that's what the workforce is looking like, especially as people feel so enabled and empowered to identify themselves, as is who they feel the most, their most authentic purge person, right.
You know, is thinking about, you know, a couple of things that I that I hear that, that I always like to sort of put on the table, right, and it's because I show up, right, because I'm visibly transgender, right, I don't pass as as female, I put the passes as male anymore, either, I'm kind of in that in between state and that at six feet tall, just about 230 pounds. And you know, no longer a competitive swimmer, I'm always going to be a big person
that takes up space. So when I'm walking, everywhere, I go in town at conferences, public speaking at work, I'm very noticeable, right? And it used to really bother me. But as I got comfortable with myself, I saw it as, look, this is me being present with people, this is me showing people how trans people are normal, and how we can deliver on good business, how we can deliver as good neighbors and friends and patrons and stores and
restaurants, right? I am probably the first trans person these people are interacting with, I am one of two or three on my campus at work that has about five 5000 people, very large company, and probably the most visible, right. And for me, being visible, helps people realize that they can do
it themselves. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people come up to me not heard have had people come up to me and say, I can finally be myself because no matter no matter what it is, whether that's your you're queer, or trans or non binary, or you want to talk about other things that are affecting you and your life. And when I went through my initial transition process, I was very open about mental health and how
that drove this for me. And it's amazing how much that opens so many doors for other people to have those conversations, right? So just kind of love your thoughts on on how we can show up and what we can drive and how we can normalize that your true gender, while a personal factor in how you go through the world doesn't really describe who you are or your value.
Yeah, yeah. And you know, as you're talking one thing, you were talking about folks that don't pass, right, and I do I obviously pass and that's something I'm really conscious about. But whenever I see someone that's like not passing, it's like, also a kind of a relief to me, like, you know, and then they're, they're, like, safety, right? And so it's like I know for that person, it can be unsafe to not pass, but in what you're saying and offers, almost like a beacon of like, we
exist. And we're here. And I don't want to say that we're like normal except like the word normal, but we exist. We're here we have life's like you. We're humans, right? And, and when I see someone that doesn't pass as a trans person, I'm like, phew. Thank God. There's more of us. long round. So I think that that's really awesome. And I think that's something that we don't, because a lot of times not passing is such a negative thing, right. And I think it's nice to like reframe it, you
know, and think of it. And I know there's a lot of risk in it. So like reframing it also can be dangerous. But I think that in a lot of ways, it can be empowering. And it led to your point, I think and empowers people, not just trans folks or people to come out as LGBTQ plus, but it empowers people to be like, You know what, I wanted to look this way today, and I chose to wear this outfit instead, you know, and I just be myself.
Yeah, absolutely. Just me being around gives people permission to do that. Right. And it's, it's amazing. And I just always have to say, when I make that statement, like I'm proud of who I am, and the way I look, for me, passing is not important. And that's not true for everybody. I love our siblings that do pass and care about that this isn't devaluing you at all. And I know some of our siblings really struggle
with that. And it drives some mental health issues for them as well, it did for me initially, at first, but then I got to know myself and I got comfortable. It became for me, a
badge of pride. So what I say is, I pass this transgender, and I am perfectly fine for that, and I celebrate, wherever anybody is, on that journey, whether you you do pass, or you don't and you want to, or you're happy with where you are, like, it's, you know, we always have to state that being trans is really only important to you, the individual and be yourself.
Yeah, no, I agree with you. And I actually don't intend to pass like I just have, you know, and that's actually there. There's a lot of conversation in the trans male community, it's really isolating to pass. Like, I go into a club, and I get not kicked out, but I've gotten refused service. And I'm like, I'm trans. And they're like, Oh, your eyebrows look too good. I thought something was. Thanks, like.
Yeah, so I just feel like, you know, part of that, to your point, like, everybody's journey is unique, as we all know, but for even passing people passing trans people, sometimes the intention, wasn't it just, I mean, hormones did what they did to me. And now I'm here and I'm like, I don't know how to look more trans or queer. You know, like, what can I do? Because like, I have a certain style that I like, you know, that's what actually I got my right ear
pierced? Because like, what's the gate year?
It's the right one.
This one? Yeah. So I, I totally, I totally hear you. And I'm also like, everybody's on their own journey. And I do understand, too, that, you know, there's privileges and safety and passing for me and I have recognized that and when I was a butch lesbian, then when I went out into the world, it was much different, right? And now passing as a straight man. Yeah, like, I can sense that difference talking about when the workplace but also talking about the larger world, like, I
don't have to come out. I mean, if I don't, if I don't want to come, I'll have to come out, you know,
yeah, I totally get that. And as, as someone who lives in the DC area, right, I live in a very friendly area. If I generally feel very safe in my trances, there are places that I don't go, there are places that I feel uncomfortable, there are situations that I do feel
uncomfortable in. But I also have to acknowledge the privilege I have as someone who has a tech job in tech, who's doing really well that lives in a blue city that is very one of the one of the gayest cities in the United States, right? There's that privilege that I have, and the way I go through the world works for me, but also my environment supports that. And I recognize that's not true for everybody. me living in South Carolina, or Florida or Texas, would could be quite
dangerous for me. But I don't experience that to that anywhere near that degree here in DC.
Yeah, yeah. You all just made Erin Reed's list of like, top five places to live in the US.
Yeah. Yes. It is very nice here. We love Erin Reed, Okay. So we're gonna talk to talking about trans equity. Right. And I think it goes hand in hand with just general LGBTQ plus equity. Right. And I think a lot of companies are like, we did something for pride. We are good company. We're equitable. We did the thing, right. I would love to hear your take on on is pride month enough? Because I certainly have some of my own opinions, but we're here to hear yours.
Yeah, it's kind of what I was saying earlier. A lot of people invite me in to talk but it's like I am the trans conversation for like the year and it's six minutes. And so I usually the first thing I ask is like, what, where's your company at right now? What do you think the climate wants their employees? Like? Do you feel like a lot of folks are just they don't they're not educated, but they could, you know, be educated and allies and be
really inclusive. Do you think they're actively anti trans? Where are they at? And I'm like, Just See those minutes is enough for us to like, get the Allies excited. And maybe we could do some education with the folks that are, you know, just don't know what's up. i It's absolutely not enough. And every time, I would say when I'm usually in person somewhere, there's usually a conversation with an employee that either has transition or always going to
transition. It hasn't happened every time, but several times this has happened. And I can, you know, there they share with me the it's not great things aren't great there. So here I am to speak to this organization about how to be inclusive of trans employees for the 60 minutes when the reality is, I think, personally, it's not just obviously bringing speakers in, but it's working with a consultant. Right, and bringing someone in and working with your
leadership team for them. That I think that's the first step is usually leadership team. I think I'm actually probably jumping I think we're going to talk about like practical applied things. But the leadership team, you know, that's, that's who drives culture a lot of times, and I think that that's a lot of the things I have seen out in the world in America is that there's leadership that doesn't get it, and they want to be inclusive, or they want to at least appear
inclusive. So they bring in a speaker or they do, you know, pride a rainbow logo for the month. And it's like, that's, that's I think that's really where it starts. But it requires it requires the work it requires time it requires requires effort. And I don't you don't get that just in Pride Month.
No, you don't. It's it's we're prideful all year long. It's still basically pride for us, even though it's not June, I'm still trans today. I'm still queer today, and I will be June 1 Next year, right? How was okay, we're going off scripture a little bit. I felt like this pride was super heavy. And I was busy doing my own things. And it felt like this one was more loaded more. More was on the line. And I know we're off the cuff here. But kind of a love your position on
where you were with it. How you how you got through that? Maybe what some of your talking points, but
yeah, so I mean, we all know, it's been an awful year, right with legislation. And to your point, things have felt loaded. It's like I also I feel like corporations and organizations are in this weird position of like wanting to do this work, but then being really afraid to not do enough. So if they do a little, then they're in this position of like, I only did this and I'm afraid now I'm gonna get taxed by the right. And so I personally, you know, I mean, again, we talked about age
here, I'm 40. So I'm not ancient, but like, I've been around long enough to remember a time when, you know, I didn't see pride things at Target, I didn't see a lot of visibility around the queer community. And of course, they're profiting off of this. That's what they do. That's what businesses do. They profit off of people. Like that's, that's, that's the point. That's, unfortunately, we're in a capitalist society,
right? And so, for me, there was this like, initial like, oh, not just this year, but over the years when I'm like, oh, gosh, like there's pride stuff cool, like this, like feeling of yay, because I didn't see it before. But I have started to get resentful, especially with the target thing, you know, then taking things to the store and, and I want employees to be safe and all that as well. I mean, you know, like, what's a livable wage just targeted paying that?
I don't know, I don't want like those employees to like, put themselves on the line and fight face bigots, you know. So I just really struggled with, what can I be excited about? Oh, like, oh, I don't know anymore. And I don't, it feels, you know, like the bud light thing. Like, just like, every time we turn around, it's like, we have some organization trying to do something like, and show us some sort of recognition, and then something crazy happens. And either they pull it back, or we get
attacked. And so it's like, it's the double edged sword of visibility, I guess. And then as far as like, go into places I feel like the big talking points this year were was the legislation because it's interesting to me, especially from a journalistic background to see the lack of coverage like this is a really really and we are a small percent of the population. So why is there so much the balance, right? If we just looked at like, statistically, we're so small portion of America, why is there
so much targeted at us? I mean, obviously, it's like political theater. We're being used as a diet. That sucks. Let's talk about it like let's see that in the news. Let's see that broken down and like we mentioned air and read Aaron's the only person I've seen really great, comprehensive coverage of what's happening with the train and stuff and yeah, I don't know it
has been a hard year. I mean, for me personally, it's been a hard year so add that on top of just like, this has been a hard awful year, and I'm I'm exhausted like I I was excited to do the talks I did this year. And I was really grateful to be invited in person, which I think is important to put me in front of people. But I was like, this is a hard year to get up in front of people, you know. And I said that I started every talk that way, like, this year, and we really, really need to action.
We don't need you just to sit here, you know? Yeah, that talks about
very similar experiences, right? Like, watching things go down with Bud Light, and then target. And, you know, there's some news, there's some other places coming out this like, Oh, come on, man. Now, how like, you don't came to bullies now a small vocal minority, right. And I don't think there was a talk that I did, where I didn't talk about the legislation. There was one where I spent five minutes just naming all 24 states one by one. And I held that captive audience for that,
right. And I wanted to relay the gravity. Right, I think that's really come through and everything I've talked about, I've seen it through a lot of what you said, some of our other hosts have said, some of the people that we have yet to have on the podcast. And it was a hard, it was a hard one. It really was. And, you know, I went through the first half of the month really excited about what I had on my plate.
And as I got to the second half of the month, I was really kind of feeling the weight, because I hadn't talked about it a lot to a lot of people and it just kind of, and I came out of Pride Month, my last thing that I did was literally the last day of the month, I had two things back to back on the mother, 28th and 30th. And I was exhausted all last weekend. And you know, I gotta say, coming into the Fourth of July, I wasn't feeling all that patriotic, or free to me. Right?
I really didn't celebrate yesterday. And not that it's been a huge holiday for me. But, you know, it's taken me a couple of days to get kind of through this, this malaise and it's like talking to you talking to people like Vanessa or Liam Paschaal and like, getting with my siblings. And this is this despite was never about just this month, this is the month that we're just on the stage there most right. And we have to pace ourselves, we have to
recharge. And, you know, I'm feeling more and more ready for what's next. But it feels like the gravity has changed. And I don't know. I don't know when it will change back. Right. So I just wanted to call it out because we're like, off the heels of pride. And I suspect many people are feeling the way that you and I feel right.
Yeah, yeah. It's like, it was like a party where someone pooped in the pool. Looking at it, after we're all down and the poop is still there. They're not Yeah, it's, it's it was a hard month. It was not. It was really, you know, it's been hard for years here. I mean, for dinner, but like it's we've been really visible and like in this, like legislative spotlight for a couple of years now. But this year was just like awful. It just felt devastating. And it was like weird to try to be
recognized in that as well. And I think that yeah, I just feel great. And I'm the same way I did not celebrate I love Fourth of July, not because of what it means. I just love fireworks. I grew up with fireworks. I grew up at hillbillies. So like that's like the bobble rockets out of our hands, that sort of thing. And I was like, I don't feel any connection to the country at all, you know, and just struggling with that. And and what does that mean? What does it mean to be America? And
like it's not? It's hard. It's hard right now. It's hard.
Yeah, definitely. I think we have some similar backgrounds in terms of fireworks. Right. But I do have all my fingers. Yes. Okay, so let's get into like the really next one. And that's kind of expect this to be really the meat to the conversation. Right? So how do we start that process of creating an equitable, equitable workplace? Is it getting beyond pride being a one day year or maybe a monthly celebration? How do we how do we get that
going? And, you know, I think some of some of the people that might watch this might be part of big companies and like, oh, we really robust thing. But there's always room to room to improve. There's always room to do more, and especially when we think about the intersectionality of all marginalized communities. But I think a lot of where a lot of the need is, is where there's no, there's nothing, there's no, there's little to no representation. So where would you recommend people start?
Yeah, well, and I think I lean mostly on my training background, and we did a lot of training around change. And really, this is just a big cultural shift and change in the workplace. And so what does that look like? Obviously, it isn't. It's like I've seen earlier, it's not a 60 minute conversation once a year, you're not going to shift culture and
change things. And I think that what's been discouraging to see is a lot of dei positions getting shut down and we're seeing a lot of a lot of the work around racism really started to ramp down. And that's why only been like really ramped up in 2020. And so that's three years. And I'm sure cultures didn't change. And that's the thing. It's a it's a decade over decade really.
thing, but I think it starts with, you know, investing, like I said, I think that no matter the size of the organization, someone's leaving that organization, whether it's a team leading it, whether it's one person, and if that person is still either ignorant on the issues, or struggling with the issues and any sort of like moral values way I have had a CEO once that was Christian, and really just struggled to understand how you can be Christian and be inclusive of
LGBTQ folks. And I'm like, that's possible, actually. Possible. Yeah. People are, yeah. And so that I saw that as like, no matter what changes and likes, my colleagues at this one person's voice gets to be heard every month on this like this, he did this little podcast thing that we all have to listen to him, like, there's no way this
is going to change. So I think I hate to be like trickle down, but like, it really does start at the top, it starts at the top, and if the top has not, you know, is it culturally competent about trans people, then you're screwed. And I think that's really where it starts. And if they're unwilling to, and there's a power to there's there's the power to be that could remove them, they should
be removed from leadership. So then I think from there, it's, you know, really, I think a lot of there's a lot of misinformation about trans people, some basic education goes a long way. I think there are folks that especially with the anti trans legislation, a lot of the messaging around that is really misinformed. It's really, it's made us out to be really kind of terrifying and gross. Right. And so I think, just basic education what, what does it mean? Who are these people?
Right? I think it goes a long way with just the whole workplace population. But specifically for trans people, I think, you know, anti discrimination policies that call gender identity, I think, access to spaces that aren't super gender, like we're talking about folks that don't identify with either gender, the bathroom becomes a big problem at the work place, you know, and it's not, it's, it's not that hard. I don't, I don't think it's hard to make more inclusive
bathrooms. So what there's a urinal in there, I hear that a lot like, oh, but there's urinals. So it was like, it's not like a big deal. And I just think that the bathroom stuff kills me. But, um, yeah, just creating also creating trim policies around transitioning, right, like, what is clients? You know, how do I introduce myself? What how are we doing this? How are we rolling this out? Right. And so I think that would be great just
for trans people. But I think to really shift equity, it's like I said, leadership has to get on board has to be educated. It's like a cultural competency thing. Like, what where's our company at with trans culture? Are they just totally majority don't know, anything? Are they in the middle? Are they allies? Are they really anti trans? And then that's? I don't know. Yes. Then you just lay everybody off and start over, like, change the tone? Yeah, change the tone? Right? You have to Yeah.
So I didn't think I would get to show off my master's degree. But I get to because you brought up something. That was one of my favorite topics to talk about when I'm not talking about being trans. Right. And let's change initiatives, right culture change. There's a readily available statistic out there 66% of cultural change initiatives in corporate America today fail, right? So only 1/3 are successful. And there's one basic reason for that.
Leadership, whoever set off the initiative has focused on the problem they think there is, versus understanding the problem that is there. Invariably, they wind up changing the thing that wasn't a problem. And ignoring what the problem is, right? So change initiatives will take multiple years, if you're going to do them, right, you got to stick with it. And it requires top down tone change, while empowering the people below to reach up, right, you
got to reach together. But if you don't take the time to understand this situation, you're gonna fail. Right? So when I think when companies look at creating a culture change, especially around dei initiatives, right, and we know that that's kind of a got its own little tone at this
point, right. But if you don't understand the culture in the company that you're in, don't, don't hire someone from another company that doesn't know what the culture looks like at your company, if less unless you give them time to really dive in. But if you're expecting them to make change in a month or three months, you've already committed to to failure. Right? So we have to start with that investigation. Get people to understand what's really at stake in this company.
Right. And I think that's that's where a lot of people miss, especially with their di initiatives. And I think it's having worked with quite a few di people, senior people in my career, it's one of the most frustrating aspects, they're brought in. They're asked to make a change on a very fast time timeline, it doesn't work. Because people don't adapt that fast. There's mixed messages from leadership, and it fizzles out. And people burn out, right.
So I mean, you know, to what you're saying is like, people need to commit to understanding the issue within their company, do you have a large segment of really anti trans people? What are you going to do about that? Is it that you have a segment of people who just have no idea because they probably don't interact with trans people, right? Maybe you're one of those companies that has quite a large LGBTQ audience and has some good knowledge about trans people.
Right? So definitely, do your homework, understand the problem that you have on your hands today and give it time and be committed for the long term? No, culture changes overnight, no culture changes in a year, and there's gonna be growing pains.
Yeah, no, I love that I'm a data person. Like, they get the data. Right. And that's that is, because that is a big misstep, right? It's like, Oh, I know, I have a problem. I'm gonna say it's this. But then when you do a survey of the employees, it's actually over here. It's completely different than what you expected. And I think getting that temperature of just where our employees at with trans folks like, what, what's what is like, what do they think like, literally, what do they
think about trans people? And how honest can you get people to be and like you said, Okay, this is where people are at. But how does that show up in the workplace to like, what's the date on that? Like, okay, this is how they feel? What are they doing in response to how they feel, right? Like, currently, what what does that look like, and addressing all that, and it takes years, and I think that's
the thing they they want. Also, I think it's funny, they bring in like, someone outside the culture, but then on the margins are ready, and like, I want them to work so fast figure this out, and change do the thing. And it's like, no, like, this is this is work. And also, I'm a part of this community. So you're gonna need to, like slow down, you know, and, and I love what you said about the empowering folks, you know, to speak up, you know, through reach up as well. I think that's
huge. Like when when leadership is like, Oh, I hear you're having this experience, I validate that, what what can we do? Why did that show up this way? In my workplace? How can I change that? And oftentimes, it's, I think, invalid and validated. You know, I've shared experiences with CEOs in the workplace. And I was like, well, they're, they're trying to, they're trying, and I'm like, well, that you're not trying
hard enough. And this is how it's affected me like, sorry, are we to want to make people uncomfortable? I'm like, Well, I'm uncomfortable. So now's the time to change friend.
That's such a great point. And I hear that talk that we don't want to make people uncomfortable. Well, I'm uncomfortable, I'm experiencing all kinds of things in the workplace. I am uncomfortable. Why is that? Okay, because there's just a few with me, that should actually be easier to fix. Yeah, right. Right. I want to come back to something that you said earlier, sort of off the cuff. And that's transition plans. And I know, most companies probably don't have a transition plan until
they need one. Right? Because why would you make one unless you're just really forward thinking or, you know, you have a diverse group. So at some point, it's going to happen? What are your thoughts on a good on a good transition plan?
So I have never seen a good one, and experienced a good one. So I mean, personally, from my like, personal perspective, I would have liked a lot more guidance about, okay, you want to do this thing, here's a trusted person to reach out to in HR or whatever, that's the first step is just like, who's my trusted person? And then I can have the conversation like, what does this look like? And to be honest with you, when I think about it, it really depends on the workplace in the industry,
right? Like some jobs, I was so internal, and I didn't deal with clients, I only dealt with my co workers and other jobs. I was both internal and external. So then what does that look like? And, and I think that first step, though, that's what I wish I had is just somebody in an HR role that I knew would be private about it and where I wanted them to be and public about it, where I wanted them to be and guide me through the systems to that need to be changed, and how this would all
roll out. That's how I see like a generic, you know, good, good policy. But yeah, I've never I've had a few companies say they have one but then they didn't like shut you know, they didn't ask further to see it to improve it. But I I've never been at a company and experienced one, you know, it's kind of like, oh, okay, you're doing this, like, you know, it's like, yeah, I'm doing this.
Yeah, I've seen it. Seen a few, I think they're probably all lacking, right? Because I mean, for I think the reason that I named earlier, they're usually making it out of necessity someone going through it. So their transition plan seems to support probably, if we're honest, really was to support that person. And I'm not that person. Right? I'm in a different position. Maybe I'm, I'm in a different part of the company, maybe I'm a higher or maybe I'm lower, right? Or? Or maybe I'm
more naturally pass? Or maybe I don't? I don't know. Right. So Transition Plans, I think are very valuable. Every company
should be making one. If you have trans associates asked them to take a look, we're bringing in a consultant like Leo to help you frame that up, because I think what happens a lot of the time is there's not good guidance, and someone who is transitioning in the workplace is already going through a lot with transition, maybe they've already started and they're just finally letting you know, that
was my case. Right? It was really more about like, getting people to know me, not how do I have permission, I know what steps to take, right. But, you know, make sure you have guidelines for communication for how that person should be treated and handled. And I love what you said, reach out to your HR, whoever your local HR person is, hopefully you have one, they should be able to keep that secret with you and guide you through the process of what you're coming out at work would
be with some guidance. And I would definitely encourage people to make sure someone in leadership is a part of that conversation. Tone setting is huge. Right? If you can get that VP or whatever, I don't care what position you are in the bank, if you can get that HR person to get you to that person who's willing to say, this is how we treat Erica, as of today. These are her pronouns. Right? That's, that's a big
town. And, you know, as you call it out, you know, a Gen Z like this is going to become more and more common companies need to really think this through if they bring in people like you to help them figure that out, it's going to be better other than what was really a band aid for one person that now is applied to maybe five or 10 or 15. Right? Yeah. And that's just people who are, who are. Maybe I've been trans by the side of the trans binary, what about, you know, non binary people?
Right? And I know, quite a few non binary people really struggle because there's just lack of understanding there's there's lack of that person's responsible for turning everyone around them on pronouns, yes. And that they may dress them one day and mascot and the next day and gender neutral the day after that they may have medical care or not. And, you know, I think that final step that needs to be included in all those plans is, what is our insurance look like?
Right, if you're going to medically transition insurance becomes a part of the process? Yes. And I know some companies do a really good job advocating and some don't, they've never given a single ounce of the consideration. So you don't have a transition plan. And you know, that you have dragged the number named employees. Go go get one.
Yeah. I think when you're talking when thinking it's got to be clear, but flexible, right, to your point, like, your position, depending on your, your internal and external or, you know, and so like, clearly outlined for the person about what do I do first, like, how do I handle this and then, and then the company has the flexibility to say, Okay, this person's in this position, this is what this
looks like. So, yeah, I think like we were saying earlier, Gen Z to your point is, is going to require a lot of transition plans. And it isn't great to be reactive, obviously, I mean, employees that are thinking about this aren't going to come out quickly or easily if they don't think you have a plan in place. Right. So it's better to have have the plan in place than to just react to an employee coming out.
Yes, totally. Also will save you some liability to have a plan you follow that plan and your if your goal is to take care of that person you're going to do okay, right. Another question for you but then I forgot it. Dang it. I guess let's talk about from here, right we we've talked about some some equity and how to get this going how to, you know, you got to get leadership involved. Consider it a culture changing event time, let it marinate, really do your
homework and understand. How do you feel about leveraging the people within your company that are part of the community, right and no, and I'm asking this because it's a little bit of a loaded question. Right. Many of us, this is the side of our desk job. We don't get paid extra to do this work to do build communities to drive programming to create, effectively a community where people feel seen and welcome, right, despite what's happening in their local part of the company. Right.
How do we take care of employees that do this work?
Yeah, that is something one that gets brought up. Like, sometimes I'll get asked to speak and they'll like, oh, we have this other trans employee, we're going to see if they'll be on the panel with you. And I'm like, Are you compensating them extra? Because like, I know, you're compensating me because I'm not a part of your company. And so I, when I was in a corporate setting, I felt like it was so much we were we had a really high
billable rate. Some of our employees were like, 88%, billable, so like, you know, 40 hours? Yeah, it was crazy. And I was not at that high cuz I was a studio manager. So I had to, like, you know, manage people, which is not believable. But I was like, this is near impossible to do this other work, you know, like, work, I shouldn't put air quotes it's work with, but if they make it seem like work, right, like, it's not really a part of work. And I just felt like, there's got to be additional
compensation. And I think that also speaks to the larger, larger conversation about people leave places to get higher pay, right, like you don't convert employees that you already have in the way that you would if you hired someone in and it's like, me bad practice, like it doesn't, it's not good. And I think that similar thing happens with folks within a company doing all this dei work, not as a part of their their role, it's not a part of their job description. It's something
they've taken on. And I definitely think when you ask for people to speak to your whole company within the company, they should be compensated as you would if you brought a speaker in. And you'd likely have a training budget, if you're big enough, pull from the training budget, they should get some of it. Because that's
personable personal. And you're standing up in front of your co workers or virtually in front of your co workers sharing a really private part of yourself in order to help shift that cultural change. It's huge. And I do think it has a lot of impact when someone within a company shares and you know, when you're with a company, those are your co workers. And you see when your co workers coming out and transitioning, you're like, oh, that does give
me pause. If I come in as a stranger, it has less of an impact. So I think there is a lot of value when employees do that. And they're not rewarded in the same amount of value with compensation.
Yeah, I totally agree with that. It should be part of you have a budget for it, if you're bringing someone in, like, doesn't come and talk to you for free, I wouldn't come and talk to you for free. If I'm giving you the benefit of my knowledge of my education, your employees inside should be treated the same way they have expertise in something that's not part of their job. And you're asking them to teach the whole company, right. And there's, there's quite a few ways to think about
how you can do that. And I'll leave that up to companies to sort that out. But at the very least, those people should be getting opportunities to go out and learn more going to conferences, if they want being compensated in quite a few ways. There's there's ways to do it. But I also always like to call out just because someone is trans or queer, or however they identify doesn't mean you can force them to be part of your di squad. Right? That's, that's something
they need to step into. Because not everybody feels either comfortable, or feels that they should reveal themselves or feel safe. I feel very comfortable talking about who I am. It's been my whole career to talk about just to talk in front of people. So it's natural, right? I don't mind that. Because I know revealing myself being vulnerable, helps other people out. Not everybody feels like me. And so don't put someone in that position. without them being willing to do it on their
own. Don't put pressure on them, because you don't know what's going to happen when they go back to the rest of their job. Right?
Yeah. And I wouldn't even say even if someone like us, like we have our job, but then we do this on the side, right? We speak and we get paid to speak. I would say even within my like, I'm in higher ed now I've been asked to do things and don't assume just because I do it over here, I want to do it in my work as well. Because, one,
they're not compensated. But two, I might not feel there's there's you know, I did might not feel that, that comfortable in front of colleagues sharing the things I would share in front of strangers that I'm not going to see. So I think there's also that like, I think sometimes people are like, Oh, Leo's public. So Leo will do this lately. Oh, you do that? And I'm like, no, actually.
Yeah, I've definitely gone through that a couple of times myself, where I'm like, I'm gonna take your break, because I'm busy already with the things that I'm doing. I'm not really going to show up for the rest of the company again, let somebody give someone else that opportunity, right. Don't just assume. Okay, with the last few minutes we have left, right. This is an important one that people are kind of craving for particularly
trans people. I think many of us transition and maybe through work is you know, how do you how do you make friends how do you meet people and sometimes it's through work, right. Sometimes you're part of online communities and you get to meet people But what I've noticed is that where trans people tend to be thriving more at work is when there's a community at work. And typically, there might not be enough trans people to build a
community. But if you take a look at the rest of the year of the LGBTQIA plus community, there's probably enough individuals there. So how do we, what can companies do to foster an environment where we can come together and commune even while on the job?
Yeah, I mean, I think employee resource groups are great for that, right? It goes back to though framing it more socially and less, like we're gonna get this work done, we're gonna change. So like having like, happy hours, or you know, even if, even if it's virtual, that's something I've worked for a lot of companies, even pre COVID, where I was all virtual, we're all virtual. And I didn't mind like getting like having like a one on one like little coffee date with people. And just
connecting that way. We had at the company where the CEO didn't want to make people uncomfortable. He we had a little Yammer group that was for the employees. So just social network that we like, you could opt in, which was really great. You know, you don't like sometimes you like really good. Then you're just like, waiting for them to reveal like, right? Yeah. You never know, pronoun again, like, so I just feel like you're awesome. Kind of just like trying to figure it out.
And this way, if you have like some sort of a lot of companies, I feel like have like, you know, teams, or what some sort of social spot that if you can create a group that people can opt into, so that they can be like, oh, yeah, here's all these gay people in my company. This is awesome. I think that's really a great way to do it as well. I know I have struggled in higher ed, it's funny because we're so
segregated. Really, it's like almost like being a freelancer when you're in higher ed, because you teach your classes you don't really see each other. And so I'm just like, where are all the gay people so we there's actually an affinity group called ball pride. And we all meet virtually even though we just usually meet virtually, and it's really nice. And they like walked in pride together. And I think yeah, opt opt in, things
are awesome. It's just like making them public and aware, you know, making everybody aware that they exist.
Yeah. Excellent example. But Leo, it has been an absolute pleasure, pleasure to actually get to talk to you and not just email you. But to have you on our on our little growing podcast here. We're so excited to have you be a part of it with us tonight. Any parting words for us?
That's a hard one. Trans people are awesome employees. Like I said, we are we're motivated. We're hard working. And I just I honestly have never worked with a trans person that I wasn't like, impressed. Like, we're just super impressive. Super smart. self aware. Gorgeous. That's it. Thanks.
Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna I'm gonna follow on on that were amazing people. If you want to find someone who knows a lot about resiliency, someone who knows something about authenticity, authenticity, putting their real selves for and vulnerability. I mean, come on, who puts that more on the table than trans people? Those are amazing people. I don't think I have ever met a trans person that I didn't instantly love because I was like, you are getting it done. So yes, that's why we're that's
just one of many reasons. We're valuable. All right. Well, that's it. That was episode 14. I think maybe the next one episode 15 is going to be another trans Joy episode with meet Leo, you're invited if you want to come. Next week is trans joy, trans joy. So we will see you all then. Thanks for hanging out with us on the transcending humanity podcast. Listen to our podcasts or where you listen to podcasts or on YouTube. Leo, anything you would like to plug before I sign off? No, just
follow me on LinkedIn. I love connecting with other trans folks and just people in general. Yeah. Go follow Leo or Leo. He is awesome on LinkedIn. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next time.