Episode 124 - Interview with Levi and Shannae O'Brien

Hello and welcome back to another episode of Upfront and Undivided with Luke and Dean'na. Hey babe. Hey babe. How's it going? You know, I'm itchy. I know you are. But not poison ivy itchy. Right. It's like allergy season funness. I'm on the struggle bus. It's fine. We've got friends in the studio with us today, and they're looking at me like, you all right? You all right? I'm like, I just wanted to cry three times today. It's fine. I'm all right. My head is full of

snot. It's Easter weekend. He is risen. Jesus is Lord. God, I need you to be the center of it all right now. I need you to kill whatever's being resurrected and making me itch. Yeah, that's right. I have gone through, I'm not joking, I've gone through like half a box of Kleenex. Are we serious? Should I use this on my nose? Like, it's raw. It hurts. That's enough about me. See? Yes. How are we doing? Doing well. Yeah? Yeah. It is Easter weekend. It is Easter weekend. I

keep saying that. So before we get too far in, I will say we have Levi and Shannae O 'Brien in the house, in the studio. Welcome, y 'all. That's my clapping machine. Thanks for having us. It's our first time. Levi, we were talking earlier, Levi has been here in the studio and Shannae has not been recorded. in the studio. So this is the first time for her. I'm really pumped. I'm pumped to hear from her. Do you know that Shannae's one of my favorite people? I've heard this rumor.

Did you know this rumor? I tell this rumor to him a lot. You are one of my favorite people. That's nice to hear. You're just legit. Because we were just talking about your sister -in -law, right? Because she comes in here and she does In the Real with me and Marsha. Heather O 'Brien. So it's like... It's, well, you're right. No, I'm sorry. Because I don't, I forget. Like, not everybody listens to all of the things. Why not? Hello? Why are we not listening to all of the

things? Well, and I have a lot of sister -in -laws, so. It is true. You are right. You've got to be specific. You do. I'm sorry. You're right. So, but we were just discussing, so Levi is Heather's little brother. And we were discussing how Heather's very, very real. Just like, that's just who she is. But see, I would say the same thing about you. That you're just very, very real. So apparently. He is fond of people that

tell it like it is. Apparently. I mean, not that you had any choice with your sister, but you picked somebody that just like, let's have a conversation. Let's get real about this. And it's important. Yeah. It's important. So how long have you guys been married? Tell us some of the back history, the babies, things like that. What has it been? Almost nine years? No way. Almost nine years. Congrats. That went fast. I don't feel like I'm old enough. You don't look

old enough. I don't feel old enough. But yeah, married almost nine years, three kids. What are their ages? Six, three, and almost 11 months. Right. What? I don't know how that happened. That went fast. Yeah, you still need one soon. He's so expressive. All three of your kids are expressive. And I am not a baby person, but like that one day I looked at you, I said, can I just hold you? And I was like, what is wrong with

you right now? Why am I holding this child? And he's just like, he has that effect on people. He's sweet. He's very cute. He's sweet. Y 'all make cute babies. Thank you. You genuinely do. Like each one of them have such neat little personalities. They hold their own. Yep. Yep. Yeah. All right. Our household is very exciting. Every day. It's very fun. And I mean that actually in a positive way. I'm a very expressive person. And we've seen in Aspen a very expressive girl. Very. She

will change the world someday. Yeah. For real. After we convince her to change her clothes, she'll change the world. That's right. Because sometimes that's the biggest fight of the day is just getting clothes on. But, no, we've talked about how, like, there's a lot of similarities to when you were growing up and stuff, too, with her. And so it's just exciting. Yeah, we do have very expressive kids, and we really like that. We really like when you give them a gift, they

show you how much they love it. Like, you know, we take them for an experience, and they're just into it. And, like, it's all you could ask for as a parent, really. I love that. Yeah. I love that. So what else? How did you guys meet? We met at church. Okay. When he was actually dating somebody else. Wait, what? Okay, well, that's when we first met. Like, hi, my name's Levi. We're interested in each other. You were dating somebody else? I was. I was dating somebody taller

than me. Man, we'll have to talk about it later because all of a sudden I'm like, I went blank. Like, it's been Shannae. That's all the Shannae. That's it. Tall with curly hair. You don't remember at all. No. That's fine. No. Good. I don't remember. I don't want to say names, to be honest. Don't say names. No, it's fine. We'll talk about it after. So I was at that time, and I didn't even hardly see that she existed as a person, to be

frank. But at that time, she was still just now coming into this thing, trying to figure it out, like, do I want to do this or not kind of person.

So I just didn't even. seer really and then um later on i was working in int at the main church with our infants and toddlers ministry and i remember going to the person who was leading it and like i just knew i i need to make some sort of change i gotta make a change here something's gotta change i gotta do something else maybe another ministry or something and she's like well our west campus we had a west campus at that time needs somebody to lead the infants

and toddler ministry over there. Would you do it? And I was like, yeah, I'll do it. So I went there and that's when I met her. Oh, whoa. At that time, I was no longer dating. So let's just get that clear. I was going to have a follow -up question, but there you go. No, it had been,

I think, more than several months after. um met her and started noticing like this girl is doing things she doesn't necessarily want to do i would see her at pre -service prayer all the time which greeting she was greeting and i knew that wasn't necessary that is not my personality to be talking to everybody that comes in the door and so i noticed those things and like she just had a heart after god and was pursuing her i think at that point you'd been here a year and so it

had gotten to the point where this is what i want and what i'm doing yeah right like she had been transformed then i noticed her you know and um and so then i just started talking to her about the weather and things like that like anything i could i could think of i didn't know it's february okay it's february in missouri yes and he says so it's cold outside i go yeah it's february Like, what are you supposed to say to that? That's what I appreciate about Levi,

his smoothness. I mean, that is smooth. Yeah. It's cold outside. I mean, and so then I would just, like, every time there was a service, I would just, like, try to get some conversation with her going. Yeah. Although he did have to go to my brother and say, yeah, so your sister, my brother said, Shannae? Yeah, Shannae. Because he didn't know how to. Say my name. I read it on Facebook. I didn't know how to say it. Your name, just like Dean'na's name, is unique. And it's

like, I can really butcher this. I don't want to out loud. I got called Shane a lot growing up. It makes sense. I've heard you called Shanna or Shannon. Shanna. Shannon's my sister's name, though, so not me. But I have been called that many times. I love that. And then so how long was it before you finally broke her down? Well, it wasn't even him. Because I'm talking to my brother Derek and my sister -in -law Sabrina, and I'm like, how do I nicely tell someone I'm

not interested? I was like, he was homeschooled. He's loved Jesus forever. I was a pretty messy person. I just don't think that's a good idea. He's thinking, she talks to me. He got my phone number, so I would text him back because he would ask questions that I couldn't just ignore because I didn't want to be a jerk. Smooth. I'm like, how do I get rid of this person? Right, right. But then church happened. He was on stage praying, and I find myself staring at him, and I catch

myself and go, what the heck are you doing? People can see that you're just staring at this guy. And then God says, hey. I'm like, no. And God says, yeah, look at him. No. And then the Lord said to me, you're really going to let your past get in the way of your future. And very immediately I said, yes, absolutely. You're honest. And God's like, come on. I'm like, okay, fine. We can try it out. Okay. Yeah. I will let the walls come down. I will have a conversation with him. Yeah.

And just see what happens. And it was like an immediate change. Oh, my gosh. I come down from the stage and start talking to her. And it was like a whole new world. I'm like, wow, where is this conversation? I didn't even realize I was being walled up. To be honest, God just blinded me to it. I'm like, things are going well. We're having these good conversations. But then that night, it's just another level. And from there,

it just kind of went. Well, because you had always said you wanted someone who was interested in you for how you loved God and not really for who you were, but for what they could see in you. Yeah, I wanted somebody I married. I wanted them to be attracted to me because of my relationship

with God. wow and so on the stage praying in front of the church is when she was like i'm staring at this guy i'm wow and i always prayed for that i always wanted because it was such an important part of who i was i needed them to be someone who would value a relationship with god that it would be attractive to them and that's what pulled her in i love that that's what it was i love that No, I do. And that's a bold, that's a bold prayer. Like, I mean, babe,

you're hot, but you know what I'm saying? Like, you just want to go, okay, but you love Jesus. Do you love Jesus? Because we say that to our daughter all the time. It's like, listen, this, all of this, like it changes, it shifts. It's always doing something different. But this, that, like all of that, like. That's what you want. You want somebody that's pursuing God, that loves God, because they're going to see you with the eyes of the Lord as opposed to the physical,

the shallow. Yeah. Wow. Look at you, girl. That's deep. Should that start leading us into why we really came here to talk today? I think that would be interesting. Yeah, you jump in any time you want to. Why are y 'all here? Why are we here? Because y 'all had a conversation with us a couple few months ago. Has it been that long? I think so. Yeah, it has been that long. Yeah, it's been a while. So this is kind of the follow -up to that conversation. Sure. So one

and or both of you, the floor is yours. Yeah, so you want me to kind of tell? So it was December 6, 2023. It was a Wednesday night. We were working at the church that night, and I knew the whole day. I have something I've got to tell Shannae. And kind of the week leading up to that, I had reached out to a buddy who came to our church there for a while that I knew had gone through this, and I told him, hey man, I have an addiction

to pornography, and I need help. And he's talking to me about it, and I'm like, what can I do? You know, I'm honestly just at this point like, okay, I have an issue I need to overcome. Because for a while there, I kind of just... Didn't see it as the issue that it was because it was so infrequent in ways. And I was able to deceive. I was deceived. Deception isn't deception if it's not 100%. Right. I was totally deceived

by this thing. That's good. I didn't recognize it until God started leading me through a humility thing, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it led me to this point to call this guy. He tells me, you need to tell your wife. I told him I will not do that. I was like, there is literally anything else in the world for me to do. I would do that. And real quick, I will say that because we have interviewed them. It was Dustin Weidman. So I can get the reference later for anybody that

wants to follow up on that. But we have interviewed them. We did talk to them in here. Great, great couple. Amazing couple. And I'm so glad, grateful for them because of all this. So he told me that's what I needed to do. And I was like, I will do literally anything else. And because I knew how it would devastate her. And also in a selfish way, I knew how it would devastate me. And I knew what insecurities it would attack in her, too. I didn't want to do that either. And so

for the next three days, I am in hell. It is like God is just pressing on me so hard, I can't think about anything else. This is God at this point. Like, hey, you've opened this door. Now we're going through it, whether you want to or not. And I am in misery for like three days. So finally, I have a group of friends that we communicate with and things like that. They reached out. We're like, hey, we need to start getting more honest with each other. It just happened

to be. Hey, we need a separate time where we're all talking to each other, being more honest. I think we're good friends, but we really need to get into real life things. So I was like, well, I'm going to tell them. So I told them.

about what was going on and also that i need to tell shanae because i knew if i didn't tell them i didn't know if i was going to do it but this was going to hold me accountable so that held me accountable so then fast forward december 6 2023 i will never forget that date and i'm coming home like oh my god i gotta tell this girl what's going on um the kids go to bed It was afterwards. You were sitting in the chair in the living room. I come out and sit down.

I'm like, I'm about to have a really serious conversation with her. She looks like, world is wonderful. Kids finally went to bed. It's time to relax kind of thing. Let's kick it back. That's the mode she's going into. And so I begin to tell her. And that was really hard. I was shaking on the inside, vibrating. I don't think

I truly knew. what was going to happen next yeah um but after going through it i definitely would have done it again and we'll get into some of that too but because i guess i'll say this real quick you don't realize how pornography emotionally locks you up emotionally and in a very like i was living but i wasn't really experiencing life i could feel some yeah But I could not. After I told her and got actually 100 % honest, I could feel. And I had these floods of emotions that

I hadn't felt in years. And just life flooding to me where I'm in this. At that time, it was a very difficult situation. I'll let you tell your side of things. But I was feeling life again that I was in a really good place despite how

terrible that current. couple days especially were yeah afterwards yeah yeah i was just like i would definitely do this again because i can i can feel yeah i'd get angry and i'm like i don't remember the last time i was angry yeah like i would get um i would get um just like these emotions of things a sadness and stuff and like i feel it's okay i can work through this and like actually process through it but it locks you up so much and i don't think people

talk about that enough how You can quote unquote get away with it. Yeah. Or kind of push it to the side and still be living life. But you're not really living life. It almost makes you numb. Exactly. In a space. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Extremely. And I didn't realize how much had been stolen from me on that. And from our family. Yeah. So how did you respond, Shannae? Because let me caveat. You guys came to us. whenever I guess kind of after everything settled a bit. Yeah. And we

even said, why did you guys come to us? And you were like, because this is, you guys are willing to have the conversations. Yeah. Cause nobody's talking about it. Nobody's talking about. Yeah. Yeah. It's like these, we have all these amazing marriages because you guys do. You have an amazing marriage. Very sweet, very sweet family, amazing

family. But it is, it's those secret. sins per se or those things that get in there and they just lock into you and then it it takes you on a ride that you didn't need to be going on so how did you respond when he told you it was surprisingly calm at first because the rug is being pulled out from underneath yeah you know because he did he sat down in one of our kids chairs across from me and i'm thinking like what the heck are you doing yeah you know he was very quiet on

the way home from church which was not normal yeah so i'm like he must just be really thinking about something and i like i think i had asked him like are you okay yeah he's like yeah i'm just thinking like okay That was an interaction we'd have a lot because he'd be kind of out in space a little bit sometimes and I'm like, are you okay? Yeah, I'm fine. And so he sits down across from me and then tells me and I am stunned to say the least. It was very eerily calm. And

then immediately I'm like, for how long? How

often are you doing this? yeah yeah like you've been doing this where have you been doing this yeah you know so all these questions start happening and then of course one of our kids comes out of their room so i just get up go to my room shut the door because i'm not about to let my kids see me because i know on the outside i i'm like calm but i can tell that there's a rage inside of me that's about to explode yeah so I excuse myself and he deals with our kid, gets

him back to bed. And it's not like good, but I came out of the room and went to him and started punching him. Cause I was so angry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he just sat there and took it. And I was, I'm like, you're going to tell me everything and you're going to tell me everything right

now. Yeah. Yeah. and so he starts telling me i'm like how long has this been going on and at that time he said like well like three or four years and so immediately i'm like okay well our son is we're seven years into marriage at this point right and so i'm like thinking like okay well our son is this old so oh so you started doing this after i had a baby and my body's not the same dang yeah So then, of course, as a woman, my brain is just like, yeah, you're not good

enough. Your body sucks after you had a kid. And now you have had two kids and there's another one on the way. So he's really not attracted to you. Yeah. And that wasn't the truth, actually. Yeah. That wasn't the truth. It wasn't the whole truth. And I hadn't said everything yet. And it's so funny how when you lie and hide something

for so long, you can't get it. out it's like i couldn't and so i you know she's at that moment currently hitting me asking me how i was like four years you know like i yeah it was you panicked yeah i panicked and like i'm trying to i was like for some reason in my mind that felt like it was yeah i was still trying to hide yeah i still was a hundred percent and it took it took time to get to a hundred percent and it took pushing from her like it took me physically like

give me your phone And so I start reading through. This was like the next day. I start reading through the text messages that he sent to his group of friends. And I find out that, no, it's been our entire marriage, really. And so then I'm like, okay, so not only did you lie to me for this long, but then when you told me the truth, you still lied. I made it much, much worse. Wisdom, if you do this with your spouse. prepare yourself.

I should have wrote it out. I considered doing that and I should have everything a hundred percent. It's a good idea. Yeah. And finally we ended up, I don't know if we should tell the whole story cause I think some of the after stuff is really, really, really good from you, especially on this. But we, we ended up getting over the course of a couple of days and yeah, it was the next day. Finally, a hundred percent everything on the table where, how, how often from the age

I was 12. Actually, all the way up. Had a year in the school ministry where I didn't. Got back to it. Told somebody about it to try to help. They were kind of just like, ew, gross. Please tell me you're done. Had a pretty bad reaction. So shame. You have shame on top of all of that. That just added on to fear. There were other people in my life who had known, even when I

was younger, never talked to me about it. Just kind of like... almost brushed it aside like we're not going to talk about it yeah um and so i think that added to the fear of telling my wife especially yeah because of just that the reactions um and then i knew it was going to really hurt that identity of hers but it was still the right thing to do and it was the only thing that has set me free yeah wow the i tried everything I could think. Yeah. It was the only

way to do it. So if you're in a marriage and you struggle with this, get some accountability with some other guys around you. Hopefully someone else who's been through it, maybe, if you can find one, right? Because you're going to want your spouse to talk to their spouse. And then tell your wife. Yeah. And tell her 100 % all of it, everything you can think of. Yeah. I mean, I was asked, I'm like, well, what, like what

sites are you going to? I think I spent like 30 minutes blocking websites on his phone, you know? Cause I'm like, you're going to tell me everything. Yeah. And if I find out that you lied about something again, we're really going to have a problem. Yeah. Right. But yeah, be, be Israel. as you were in the car when we were on the way over here. Tell them what was happening during those couple days for you after I told you I go to work the next day. We can mark a

little box that says this is explicit. So if you so choose. Yeah, because I more than one time, and your sister included, cuss in here. It's real. You've got to be real. It is. And God is not scared of that. He's not scared of us being real. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so he tells me and I'm like, okay, we're those people. Like, I'll just tell everybody we sleep naked. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I'm like, it's late at night. I'm exhausted. But then I'm like, well,

my whole world just blew up in my face. So what am I going to do? Go to sleep now? Right. But I remember being like, I am sleeping in close tonight. You will not see me naked. You will

not touch me. You will not kiss me. stay away from me right right and i don't i think i maybe got an hour of sleep that night because my mind is just everywhere i'm like yeah i didn't i didn't want to be in the bed with him so i went to the couch and then he ends up coming out and he's trying to talk to me and i'm like i just don't understand i'm just crying Yeah. Balling. And I'm thinking about my kids. Like I am pregnant at the time. Right. You know. Right. So it's

just all of this. Drop a bomb plus you being hormonal. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm like sitting there thinking like, are you freaking kidding me? Right. Like we have a third kid on the way. Yeah. And I'm dealing with this now. And he ends up like he calls into work the next day because I was like, I'm. I'm not going to be capable of taking care of my children. Yeah. But also like, what am I going to do? Call my mother -in -law and be like, Hey, can you come watch my

kids today? Because my life's falling apart, but I can't tell you why, you know? And so the next morning I have, you know, I have my two sister -in -laws and then a really great friend, basically I consider her family. And so I text all three of them and I was like, well, this is what Levi told me last night and I don't know what to do. And immediately my friend, she calls me and she was like, hey, first of all, I want

you to know this is not your fault. And I'm just like, can't comprehend that because I'm thinking it has to be my fault. Why else would he go and look at other women? It has to be my fault. And she's like, it is not your fault. So she's talking me through this and all three of them are like, you need to talk to Tori. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, okay. So I get off the phone with my friend. I text Tori. I'm like, can we talk? Yeah. And

she's like, yeah, call me. So I call her and right away she's like, this is not your fault. She's like, and if I'm being honest, it actually has nothing to do with you. Yeah. Again, I'm like, it has to do something with me. I just can't comprehend that at all. But she's like, listen, you got to let yourself feel everything. And we're going to talk this through and we're going to figure out some next steps and what you need to do. So, I mean, I was on the phone

with her for a while and just telling her. this is what's been happening you know i asked him all the questions and she was like and that's the thing if you want answers to the questions ask them but sometimes there's questions that you're like i don't need to ask that and i don't want the answer yeah and that's fine yeah just figure out like what do you need to know what do you not need to know and um so then she's like you do you know like how old he was when

he was first exposed to this i'm like well yeah 12 like we had we had had this conversation before even when we were dating we talked about yeah porn yeah and so that's another thing i'm like i lied we talked about this yeah yeah so that was another thing where she's like so he's been lying specifically lying for a while yeah and that was true yeah i'm like we specifically when we started dating i was like listen I'm going to be completely honest about my past, the things

I've done. I slept around in college. And if you can't handle that, then you're not the person for me. I was exposed to porn when I was in third grade. So I had the perspective of, what's it like to have a porn addiction? And I was very honest about everything with him. And then I look back and go, how could you have lied to me then when I was so honest with you? So that

was something we talked about. She's like, Tori's like, okay, so what you might need to do is look at him like he is still that 12 year old boy. Yeah. Getting exposed to something and you know what it's like to be exposed to that. Right. Yeah. And that really helped shift my mindset because I was, I was really struggling when he told me with like, if we didn't have kids, you would not be in my house. And that was a very scary thought for me. Yeah. Because I'm like,

this is a person that I love. Yeah. Like I said, I do to you and we have three kids and like, what the heck? Right. Yeah. And I think, um, you don't just say things. She very well meant that when she told me and I knew she meant it. Yeah. And I remember being at, cause Thursday I was off. Friday, I went to work, and I remember being at work like, I don't know. I don't know if I have a marriage. I actually don't know. Not like, oh, it might be this extreme. It was.

And even in that, I would do it again because of the freedom that came to me. So it's funny. I'm experiencing extreme freedom. And she's experiencing now having to deal with all the crap. Yeah. In a way. Right. So that. Yeah. But I'm like looking at my kids going, if I kick their dad out of this house, I'm going to have to explain to my very young children why their dad's not here. Very inquisitive. Yes. Yes. Extremely. Like our oldest son, he would not have let it go at the

time. Yeah. And I don't, I. just kept being like, I don't know what I'd say to them. So I can't kick him out. He knew something was going on and he asked me and I told him, I said, dad lied to your mom and hurt your mom. Yeah. And we're working through that. You know, I've told her sorry and she's forgiven me, but we're working through it. And I remember he's just like. why would you lie to mom? I'm like, I know I shouldn't

have done that. And so then even later on, a couple of weeks later, he was like, dad, are you going to lie to mom again? Nobody, but being that honest with him in the way that I think he could understand, I wasn't trying to hide anything per se in the way that he could understand. Cause at the time he was just newly five. Yeah.

And so, um, was good. was really good and valuable absolutely um and i still think we'll prove valuable later on with life and stuff like that we can be honest with each other in front of them and they see us work through things i think that's going to be valuable for them in the future with a relationship but yeah i think that that's a really good point let me interject just for a second i think that's a really good point because i know a lot of times um We encounter different

ones that are like, I don't want to have a conversation with my children about what's going on in my marriage. Right. Like you have the extremes almost. You have the people that are arguing in front of their children and then you have the other ones that are arguing behind closed doors. But then it's like not like the kids don't know anything. I was raised in that house to where it's like all of a sudden they're divorced and you're going.

You have no idea what's going on. And so for the fact that I want to commend you guys for being honest the best way that you could with as much information as they can absorb. Because I believe in those kind of moments. We were actually just talking about this last night. Like, Gabri, when we got married, Gabri was seven. And our first three years were really, really hard. It's just you're not melding just two people together. You have three. And then it's like we would have

the arguments. We would have the conversations, the hard things. But what it teaches your children over the time being is, number one, they can come to mom and dad. They can have a conversation with you. They can have those hard conversations. Listen, we struggled. Listen, this is what we dealt with because one day this will be a conversation. I have no doubt in my mind that you guys will

be honest with your children. And when they hear that you are honest and mom and dad are not perfect, but they have a God that comes in and helps guide you and rescue you through it. That's where they get to start learning and leaning into that space. You know what I mean? So I would say even for the listeners that are in this space with y 'all or where you guys were, to give as much, just be honest. Give as much information as they can, you know, again. When they're five, that's completely

different. Seven, completely different. But again, you know. For the most part, parents know their kids and have a really good idea of what level of explanation they can get. Absolutely. You know, and so it is. You look at your five -year -old, you're, you know, probably Aspen was too young. And she wasn't even two yet. She was about to be two. I don't think she knew anything was going on. But it is. It's like even if there was a question like, oh, hey, I know something's

wrong. Not really. But you do. You look at that child and you say, hey, here's what's going on. Or a 10 -year -old. If Sebastian were to look at us and be like, I know something's wrong. What's wrong? And then have the conversation as best as possible because you guys are breaking things, right? Like, you're breaking things. There's, like, I'm hearing both of you, both of you dealing with porn somewhere along the way. Okay, well, that means the enemy is gunning,

right? He plays dirty. I think we forget sometimes that porn isn't just a guy thing. It's a girl thing, too. Absolutely, we can get caught up with it. You've got the books that are the romance novels. It's porn. I'm just going to call it like it is. You know what I'm saying? The soap operas, it's soft, soft porn. I'm doing quotation marks. But it's a doorway. It's a doorway for the enemy to go, oh, we're just going to hook you a little bit more and a little bit more.

And then it objectifies us as women, men. This is how it's supposed to look. This is how it's supposed to appear, right? This is how we're supposed to be responding. This is how you're, it just, it muddies it and it gets it raw and

just. gross right but what it does is when we're honest with our children when we're honest with our friends because i know that you guys have been honest with friends and family and the first thing you said levi when you guys came into the house is this has unlocked spaces and you have created a safe place for other people to be real about things too whether it's pornography or whether it's something else that they're just can't get rid of right and your children are

going to benefit from that because If and when the enemy comes at them, whether it's through this avenue or something else, they now know mom and dad did this. And mom and dad know the answers and they're going to help me get through it. Right. Right. Yeah. And I think for us, there's several things I could say, actually. But I definitely wanted more from you on things you went through.

But like me being. 100 honest wasn't just for that moment right it was afterwards too and just she began to see a new person that she was married to yeah so yes i told her and devastated her blew up her world really but because it is an affair i don't care what people say or think or how they want to make light it is an affair yeah against my wife it was you know cheating whatever you want to say it's nothing lighter than that it is that right and so i was a hundred

percent in that everything she'd asked me how i was and i was like well i'm feeling this right now and you know this thing over there and she never ever got those types of answers from me before wow i couldn't yeah i couldn't process fully my emotions our deepest conversations were still mostly surface level and so suddenly she's like running into this new person wow that she's married to and like like valuing it so much while at the same time i think feeling some like real

deep hurt and anger and well just also like Before, I'm like, okay, we have a financial issue, and I'm like, are we going to be okay? And he's like, yeah, we're going to be fine. To now, I'm asking him, are we going to be okay? Are we going to make it to payday? And he's like, I don't know. I'm like, what do you mean you don't know? You don't have an answer for me? What am I supposed to do with that? I want that answer back there. I'm like, what do you mean you don't know? You're

supposed to know everything. I felt like I was supposed to always have the answer. I couldn't show wrong. I couldn't show that. I had an image to uphold with her and everyone else. I felt like I had an image of who I needed to be. And I tricked myself into thinking I'm trying to live up to what God is calling me to. When in reality, you're portraying a mirage of someone you're not actually. Wow, that's good, Levi. And, you know, it was deception. It was deception.

I was 100 % deceived. So then I started getting real. It's so random. I don't know if I should bring it up, but it's so random. I never cussed before, ever. I would make her feel almost ashamed of herself if she said a cuss word. We don't talk about that. We don't talk like that, babe. Or if I listen to a certain song in the car that had a cuss word, he's like, change it. I'm like, okay. Obviously, you don't want certain things around your kids or whatever, but it would just...

It'd be just me and him. Right. Yeah. sorry i cuss now because it's just real life like yes i'm living real life i have real emotions and like it was just like ah that image thing that religion religiosity thing of like it just went away completely i remember like two weeks after this happened my relationship with god was like i just didn't even have i don't know i don't know where it is i'm not reading my bible currently i'm not praying i'm just talking and living and

experiencing everything i can't even keep track of everything right now i'm feeling so much right and just this flood of stuff and so i remember christy asked me like so how's your relationship with god going and i was like i have no idea you know and i that was so real i was just so raw and real like i haven't gotten there yet like i mean and that was definitely never gonna be a levi answer before this yeah i there was there is definitely a before and after for my

life and our marriage i would say too yeah um and then we started seeing other couples we as we're going through this telling people what's happening with us and stuff like that and where we're at and like they start having their own conversations well lo and behold right yeah and so honesty starts coming to the forefront in these other relationships not necessarily the same thing but similar things or yeah or just like hey you got to deal with this and nobody's

being honest kind of stuff that these other couples were dealing with and so they started like, they're having these great experiences coming to me like, Hey man, thank you. And I'm like, thank me for what? You know, like I am literally the lowest person in the room right now. Do you know what I did to my wife? Yeah. Like, and I have agreed with the honesty of who I actually am for once in my life. And it's ugly. Yeah. And I feel amazing, but so humbled to just like, and, That's such

a good place to be. That's such a good place to be of just humility and just who are you actually. Yeah. Well, and that's something. My brother Derek would be like, Levi, just tell me how you really feel. Right. Just tell me. Yeah. This is before. Yeah, before. People would get so frustrated because it's like, you give me the perfect answers, but tell me what you're actually thinking. Yeah. But he couldn't. Yeah. He was incapable. He was just in such a fog that he

didn't even know. That's crazy. Didn't know. Yeah. I didn't know. So it's just a thing now. At first, for those first few months, especially, my friends would look at me and be like, I'm proud of you for using that cuss word. That's awesome. That's awesome. But it was actually freedom for me. Yeah. Because it was real. I was being 100%. And so I think. Telling more from your perspective of how you kind of were starting to deal with things. Specifically when

I came home Friday from work. Well, okay. So to get to that point, when I had been on the phone with Tori, I remember saying, I just flat out go, I didn't sign up for this. She goes, well, you did. Yeah, you did. When you said I do. Yep. And it hit me like a ton of bricks.

And I said, well, shit, I did. Yep. yep you're you're right i did sign up for this but didn't expect it yeah and she was like listen if you need a break if you need to leave the house if you need him to leave the house do whatever you need to do yeah like you are allowed to feel what you're feeling and you need to feel it yeah because if you don't you're not going to get through it and you know she had told me that when they had gone through it people had told

her like well porn's no big deal Sorry, what? If you're someone going through this and someone tells you that, run away. As fast as you can. Yes, because it's a very big deal. Like you said, because of course I start going on, I'm Googling, what do you do when your husband tells you he's addicted to porn? Wow. First of all, the statistics are shocking. Do you remember any of them? I

mean, it's like 70 to 80%. of men are addicted to porn and then when you look at it for pastors yeah the percentage of pastors who struggle with porn addiction wow yeah people in church it's it's it's what i think i looked up the stats once too it's like over 90 or over 95 of young men have been at least been exposed dang yeah yeah dang it yeah it's really bad and it's like it's in the world but then like statistics in the church yeah and then it's not being talked

about which is even more shocking yeah which almost makes it worse yeah oh yeah this thing remains in the dark yeah and it's like i mean mom and dad i love you and i'm not talking bad about you i'm just it is what it is come on no it's true but it's real you know like i grew up with being told well just don't do this yeah okay but why Well, because the Bible says it's a sin, so don't do it. Right. But then, you know, I'm exposed in third grade and it wasn't even

anybody's fault. It was like, you know, we had TV and we had like a thousand channels back then. And we were watching a movie on HBO and fell asleep in the living room. And of course, the middle of the night back then on HBO is like, yep, yep. You know, and I happened to wake up.

wow and i'm like what is this yeah and so yeah it's not really anybody's fault it just happened and then i'm like well okay well why is this bad right so being eight or nine years old there's just a curiosity and then you get older and then you're at school and your friends are talking about stuff and you're like wait what are you talking about right you know and so then it It bled over into as I'm going into college that I'm like, okay, well, everybody always tells

you don't do this, but they never tell you why. So can it really be that bad? Yeah. Yep. And you don't think about the long -term consequences because nobody's told you. Right. It was basically like, yeah, just don't do it because it's a sin. And if you get pregnant and you're not married, that's going to be really hard. Okay. Right. But that's still not really telling me why I shouldn't. Right. So then I'm like, well, let

me just find out for myself. It doesn't tell you about the repercussions as far as the soul ties. It doesn't tell you about how it twists you up. I mean, like you said, Levi, you're numb. Like you're happy -ish, but like not joyful. Like it's all of those almost there, but not

quite. there and then your perspective on what you think things need to look like and how people need to act and and then it just takes you and takes you and takes you yeah we will we will constantly talk about before and after for our marriage so like for instance when we would go on dates and back then for me before it was like this is a big moment and it needs to go well because it was the only time we really deeply

connected And so this needs to go well. I would be nervous going into it and stuff like going on a date with her, you know? And we're married. Going on a date when you're married is a good thing to do, right? Right. And now, afterwards, we constantly connect. Deeply, meaningfully, regular days. So when we go on a date, it's so light and joyful and carefree. We're laughing, connecting, obviously having deep conversations when and if they come up on our dates. Sometimes

they do, sometimes they don't, right? And like just enjoying it. Whereas before it was like, this is a big moment and it needs to go well because it's the only time that I ever get myself to a place to have anything deep and meaningful with her. You see what I mean? I do. That's who I was before. I do. And so I would be so nervous going into a date. Like, this is going to help us for the next two months here if I get this thing right. Whereas now, on a Wednesday night,

your kids go to bed. I don't know why Wednesdays. We're all over Wednesdays. Trying to redeem those Wednesday nights. Yeah, that's right. The kids go to bed, things like that. And we just have, well, you know, something's going on. We'll talk. And it's like an hour later, it's like, man, I am so glad we talked about XYZ with our budget or school with Ace of School or this thing with one of the kids or whatever, or like other family members. Like, how do we work through this situation?

Like, it's so deep and meaningful. And I'm so glad I have it. And she's amazing. Shanae is amazing and strong and full of wisdom. And I'm experiencing that more and more and more. Whereas like before I had the answer or tried to. Now I'm humbled and we just connect and work as a team. Didn't have that before. Or even before, like I am a funny person. Okay. I think you're hilarious. I'm telling you, you're one of my

favorite people. And like before I'd say something funny or something witty, you know, and he would be like, oh yeah, that's funny. I'm like, I am freaking funny. What is your deal? Now after, he genuinely laughs. I'm like, just something like that. You wouldn't think of that being anything that would be different. But I'm like, I'm glad you finally realized how funny I am. I love that.

So much. So many things we could go on and on and on have changed for us and changed for me and us, you know, from this that like, we'll constantly just be like, oh my gosh, before.

xyz after xyz i can't even think of every example right now but that's a one of the ones um i'll ask the obvious because again we we are we there is nothing off limits in this world but um as far as even your intimacy because there are going to be people that are going to be like hey what are we doing like now that now that you know that this is what's been happening you are three kiddamos in and you are like we usually sleep naked and now i'm like putting my clothes on

like you kind of stopped at that spot so like yeah take me back there and take me through the process as far as what happened there because you told me something specific yeah that god told you to do um yeah so that first night i did i'm like the one pair of pajamas on that I own. When you go see the in -laws and stuff. This is weird, but you're not looking at me,

so I'm going to do what I need to do. Again, I got one, maybe two hours of sleep, then go through the whole next day, and the kids are just kind of existing. Asa knows something's

going on, but doesn't really know. when they took a nap that day we're like really hashing stuff out and i'm like he finally told me the complete truth yeah and i was just like okay i don't i don't really know what's next yeah but okay yeah and we get through the rest of that day he goes to work friday and i'm just like all right god what do i do yeah because i i don't know yeah and i'm still wrestling with do i make him leave do i let him stay i i just

know i don't want this to be my marriage right and so finally i'm like okay i'm gonna write a letter and just write out everything i'm feeling everything i'm thinking i just need to get it on paper and out of my head yeah and i must have spent an hour just writing down everything i don't i don't know it was like eight or nine pages wow wow very long yeah and then like my kids were sleeping and i remember i i laid down and i fell asleep and it was like the best sleep

i had gotten in a very long time wow and he comes home from work and he like He picked up dinner on the way home because it's like, you know, nobody's cooking in this house. We don't know what's going on. We don't know if we're still going to be married or not. And I remember he walked through the door and I saw him and I just started bawling. And so he like comes over to me and I grabbed him and I said, I need you to

get better because I can't do this. Yeah. And it was like once I got everything out of my head, I was able to think clearly of, OK, do I want to fight for my marriage or am I just I'm just going to let it go? Yeah. And I remember thinking like, no, I said I do for better or for worse. And this is the worst, clearly. Yeah. But it better be. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, but but I did. I said I do. Yeah. And. I'm looking at my kids. I've got the third one kicking around in my belly.

I'm like, I want better for my kids. I'm going to fight for this. We're going to get through it. He's going to get better because that's the only option he has. That was a huge moment because I'm driving home. At this point, I don't know. I don't know anything. I don't know where this

marriage is going. I don't know. When I came home and she was crying like that, looking at me, not... anger but with love and pulled me in and said that it just broke everything open for us and um and from there we started healing and i would say rapidly well yeah because we went to church it was a friday we went to church and like all of our friends are walking in like not really knowing what they're going to walk into and they see us we're like holding hands

as we come in and they're like what's going on? It's before church, so I'm trying to give him all the footnotes. This happened. We'll have to tell you more later, but we're okay. Is she going to sacrifice him on the altar? Our daughter's birthday is two weeks from then, so my parents are going to be coming to town. We're going to

be around everybody. horrible timing for ruining my life thanks a lot right but it was they were just like what's what's what happened yeah i'm like this is it's purely the lord because if it were just us trying to navigate this we would not be in this position yeah like the only explanation is the lord because he told me two days ago and i wanted to kill him and now i'm like i see this person That I want to help and I want him to get better and I want to have the best version

of my husband for the rest of my life. I love that. Yeah. You know, and I want my kids to have the best dad. Yeah. And, but it was, everybody was just like shocked. I'm like, I'm shocked too. Okay. I don't, I don't know. Yeah. And then that night. Yeah. So that night we had a phone call with Destin and Tori and he is bawling. Oh. And I'm like, I used to make fun of him because I'm like, I've never seen you cry. Even a single

tear. Once. Never. One time. Ever. Out of the seven years that you guys have been married. We've been married seven years, had dated a year and a half -ish before that. Had two kids be born. I'm like, you've never shed a single tear. You were locked up. Bad. Holy cow. I didn't know how bad it was. When he's like sobbing on the phone and I'm like looking at him like. what is wrong with you? Yeah. Because it was so foreign. Yeah. Like, I've never seen you cry, and now

here you are bawling like a baby. Yeah. And I'm uncomfortable because I don't know what to do with it. Wow. Yeah. But it was good. I'm like, okay. Because I remember looking at him, because people were like, people asked me after the fact, like, well, how do you know that he's changed? I said, because I can see it in his eyes when

I look at him. Yeah. I'm like, I can't really explain it other than that, but I can see it in him that he's not just telling me that he wants to get free, but he actually means it. Yeah. Because there was just an honesty and an openness and then emotionally I was coming alive. So she was experiencing. After that phone call, I'm like wrestling with myself on the phone and we get off the phone and I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what's going on. And he looks at

me and he's like, are you okay? And I was like, I want to have sex, but I don't know if that's allowed. And he's like, yeah, I mean, I think. He's like, yeah, I think it is. I'm like, but is it? Should we be here already? I don't know. I remember you looked at me and you said, I want

to have my husband back. like and like having sex is that commitment and covenant really and it's really fun and you know and and she and but it she i said she said i want almost like i'm taking you back yeah you know what i mean from this thing that has come on yeah and um that was really big for us well yeah i mean because even before it's like He would always try to initiate. And for whatever reason, it'd be like, I just don't. You're not connecting. Like, is

my body broken? Because I just don't really feel like having sex. Yeah. And then, you know, it's like, okay, it could be explained when I had a baby. So I'm going through the postpartum stuff. But then it was like, you know, my kids are, I've had them a while ago. So I should be fine now. Right. And I'm thinking, like, there's something wrong with me. And he's thinking like, well, my wife just must really not like me that much because she never wants to have sex. Oh, I hate

the enemy. Not knowing the whole time, it was me. Yeah. That thing, whether you want it to or not, affects your family. Come on, Levi. It was affecting her and she didn't even know she was fighting an invisible enemy. Yeah. She didn't even know. So if you have something like that in your life, your family is fighting something they can't see. Yeah. And probably thinking there's something wrong with them. And it wasn't even that. Like, I would try to get somewhere new

in my relationship with God. And it was like, I would feel like I was getting there and then hit a wall. And I'm like, something's wrong with me because I cannot get past this wall. Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah, to find out, like, well, no, it wasn't really you. Yeah. Yeah. And to that point, immediately, it's just you feel a sense of loss. Of the seven years, what our marriage could have been. And the enemy will try to use

that for shame. And again, that sense of loss of time and things in your life that could have been if I had been this person this whole time. But it's a deception because what ended up happening was those seeds that had been planted were dormant and God accelerated them to the point. I think Moses in Psalm 90 talks about, like basically like something along the lines of like the years of like restoring the years of waste. Yep. I can't even remember exact phrasing, but it was

like that for us. Suddenly our lives just accelerated in so many ways that for one of them being, we now help with revive kids that came like six

months later. we've always wanted to do something like that yeah it was like that thing was locked up and could not be open until this happened yeah and when it did it came and like we just had other things and friendships and connections with people that were like man we've wanted this for so long and suddenly we're having it yeah and so i will say when that lie of the deception of the time and it tries to put that shame and heaviness on you god will accelerate those years

back to you amen and i didn't obviously know that at the time, but now we do. Yeah. But one of the things that I will forever be blown away by with Shannae is that she came to me. She came to me and looked at me. I can't remember if it was Saturday or that Friday. It must've been Saturday. So now that Friday, you know, we had sex that night, different things that we've had these conversations. She came on Saturday and looked at me and connected with me in a way of.

she's going through all this crisis from what i did and she looked at me and she was like i feel sorry for you that you were dealing with this from the age you were 12 and like emotionally being locked up what has been stolen from you and i remember being just blown away by that yeah By her coming to me so compassionate in that moment. Obviously not right away. It started out with punches, right? Yeah. But after three days coming to me with such compassion and she

led me to the root cause. Okay. And through conversations and being 100 % open and honest with each other, we discovered the root cause was an image. I had an image to try to present to the world. And when you're false in any way, it leads to other false things getting in. And pornography is a false thing. Come on. It's not real. It doesn't give you anything. It pretends to give you things, right? It doesn't give you anything. And it can only live in falseness. It can only

live in dark. That's the only reason it's there is because you have something hidden in your life, probably something else. It's not alone. It's not there by itself. And it was an image that I had learned to present because of a documentary I'd been in, because of the church I was in and who I was at that church and real things from God that I had experienced that now I had to

almost pretend to be somebody I wasn't. But I thought I was, like I mentioned before, I was trying to live up to an identity I felt I had to be rather than just be real. Just be honest, be real. I couldn't, and I couldn't. And so for so long, that image thing was there. And it was like, oh my God, that's what it is. That's why I couldn't tell people I had an image. That's why I could deceive myself that it was there or not there. I had an image that I lived. I

lived more that image than my real self. And it was just... you helped lead me to that. And when it was like, we discovered that root, my God, I did everything in my power to attack that thing. Right. And be as real and open about everything as possible. Yeah. And she led me to that through her compassion for me in that moment, which is just, I will never forget that. And we, I don't want to say we healed quickly because it was very hard, difficult conversations, probably

for six, seven, eight months. Sure. And they became less frequent over that time. But this is not something that just healed over a weekend and now we're good. We had deep, meaningful, hurtful at times. Painful, I should say. Maybe not hurtful, but painful conversations. Hard ones. Two, three hours into the night for weeks, months after this. So not saying like, oh, blah, blah, blah. We're just over it now. It was a

process. But you... Being able to do that to me, love on me, have compassion in that moment, accelerated the healing. And has set us apart because then we knew of somebody else, a similar thing had happened to them. Now, this person's husband did not tell them. They found out. Okay. Right. And just kind of... That didn't happen. Some of those dynamics didn't happen and it took

a lot longer. A lot longer to heal. And so for us, I just am just always blown away by the woman who saw me at my very worst and chose to love me. I'll never forget that. And I honor you for that. I'll hop in and I'll ask. Because there was something that... We talked a little bit about it, Dean'na and I did. After y 'all shared with us the first time a few months ago, you had been on this journey for about a year then.

For lack of a better word, it was fun to see you, Levi, and the freedom and all that you had. And then we would look at Shannae on the couch sitting next to you, and it's like, she's still pissed. Yeah. She's over it, but she's not quite over it. Yeah. So I almost asked you upstairs, and I'm like, no, I'm going to ask on the podcast to put you on the spot. But we can edit this out if you really don't. But I am going to put you on the spot. How are you in this journey?

Because we know Levi's jumping up and down and shouting from the rooftops how free he is. Yeah. And we know you guys are solid as a couple, and we're not worried about that. But how are you on this journey? I mean, I'm definitely, like, you say, like, I'm still pissed. And I think what that is is I'm so pissed that this is an issue for so many people. Okay. That's good. Because, like, why is this happening? Yeah. Why is this happening? Yeah. Okay. And then why do

we feel like we can't talk about it? You know,

why did it take? seven years for the truth to come out yeah so i'm like i'm i'm just angry for people that are dealing with this i'm angry for wives who don't know what's going on and they think that there's something wrong with them yeah because i know what that feels like right and i'm still like i still have moments you know because as women our our bodies are constantly changing yes and i'm like you know well i don't really like how i look so Why would

my husband be attracted to me? So that's still stuff that I am having to fight through and work on. But I'm also just like, what can we do? As a body. As a body of Christ. Literally as believers. Because, not to cut you off, but you said that for seven years, but you've been dealing with this since you were 12. So give me some math. How long has that been? Oh, how old am I now? 32. 32. I told you roughly two years ago. So it would have been about 18, 19 years. So 18,

19 years. And you've been in church all your life. Yes. OK. Not throwing anybody under a bus. Right. But the fact that the church as a whole. Right. I mean, this is where Luke and I will talk about the things that. Right. Like, why are we not having these conversations? Why are we not having conversations about masturbation and pornography? And why are we not having conversations about premarital sex and what that actually does to your soul? Why are we not having these kind

of conversations? Because these things are in the Word of God. It is in the Word of God. So it's infuriating, and I see why you're pissed. Because this is what's gotten our train to where we're like, I want to have these hard conversations. God has designed our bodies. He's the one that created all of these things. Why are we being shamed about it? Why are we, why are we not talking about, Hey, you can have good sex while you're

married. You can, it's, it's even better if you do X, Y, Z, because this is how it's designed, right? Like these things and an understanding the repercussions, just the mental work. that things reprogram with pornography and masturbation, your brain will start rewiring itself. And people don't even realize that scientific, the greatest scientist of all times, God, creator of the universe, is the one that designed that. So why are we

not listening to the things? We absolutely understand that prayer works, deliverance, all the things. But we also know... I think that that's where we're having to get into the space, the discipleship, have the conversations. Like, yes, prayer, but now let's talk about it. Let's rework. Let's take the thoughts captive. Stop pushing it to the side. No, I'm pissed. This is not okay. You don't understand what this is doing to me. I'm absolutely consumed. Whether it's alcohol or

drugs. We talk about all the other things. Why are we not having this conversation? Because this is the thing that defiles the whole body. All of it. And then we started discovering other people that were close to us. And it was like,

oh my God. this has to be talked about how sooner could maybe we have found freedom or whatever like we could go into some of those variables but it's more so just like this is real it's real life it needs to be dealt with yes and yeah we feel because we're experiencing so much freedom we feel a sense of like what can we do i love that because there's a lot of practical things too yes you know it's like okay because like that like i i am a firm believer that everything

has a root Yes. So you have to find out what the root is, no matter what it is that you're dealing with. OK, find the root. We've got to figure that out. But then with him, it's like, OK, so what sort of things were you having that were like triggering this? Like, OK, I'm going to go do this. So it's good because it would it was like, you know. I don't know how detailed I really want to be, but, like, once a week, once every couple weeks, typically. And, like,

I could feel it coming and hated it. Yeah. I could sense days before. And so we made changes based on some of those things and just took off. you know, 10 o 'clock, my phone would not allow me to get online or whatever. And like stuff like that. That was so like practical. That's good. Setting a boundary on your phone. Like, okay, this thing is sort of triggering it. So let's change that up. Yes. Let's make sure you're

not encountering that. Like, yes. Okay. But then another thing is like, I'm here to help you and support you, but I don't want to be your accountability partner. That's good. So you, you need to find somebody. Right. And like, Yeah, I'll make sure that you're checking in with them and talking to them. But, like, I'm not going to do that for you. Yeah. You know? And then even, like, I said, listen, I love my ring, but you're getting me a new one. We are, like, starting over. You're

getting me a new ring. Yeah. And he was like, yeah, that's a great idea. Like, I want to get a new one, too. Nice. So we did. For Christmas that year, we got new wedding rings. I love that. But it was just. That next thing, that like symbol of, hey, we're starting over. We're starting fresh. This is going to be better than the last seven years. Yeah. So I did look up some stats for pornography, not just in the world, but also

in the church. So I'll go through these pretty quick or try to go through these somewhat quick. Over 40 million Americans are regular visitors to porn sites. The average visit lasts 6 minutes 29 seconds. There are around 42 million porn websites, which total around 370 million pages of porn. The porn industry's annual revenue is more than the NFL, NBA, and MLB combined. It is also more than the combined revenues of ABC,

CBS, and NBC. 47 % of families in the United States reported that pornography is a problem in their home. Pornography use increases the marital infidelity rate by more than 300%. Dang. 11 is the average age that a child is first exposed to porn. and 94 % of children will see porn by the age of 14. 56 % of American divorces involve one party having an obsessive interest in pornographic

websites. 70 % of Christian youth pastors report that they have had at least one teen come to them for help in dealing with pornography in the past 12 months. You said 70? 70 % of Christian youth pastors, yep. And this was, I think, a year ago, this website, the stats. 68 % of church -going men and over 50 % of pastors view porn on a regular basis. Of young Christian adults 18 to 24 years old, 76 % actively search for porn. 59 % of pastors said that married men seek

their help for porn use. 33 % of women aged 25 and under search for porn at least once per month. Only 13 % of self -identified Christian women can say they never watched porn. 87 % of Christian women have. Dang. 55 % of married men and 25 % of married women say they watch porn at least once per month. 57 % of pastors say porn addiction is the most damaging issue in their congregation and 69 % say porn has adversely impacted the

church. And then one of the more sad, only 7 % of pastors say their church has a program to help people struggling with pornography. Yeah. Like all four of us are even sparks. We're all just dumbfounded. Yeah. Yeah. But like at the same time, that doesn't even surprise us. No. Like I'm over here in tears because I'm thinking 11, 11 years old. Yeah. It's unfair. Because I... I think I was maybe either fourth or sixth grade was the first time I ever encountered it.

Yeah. And it was a friend's dad's stash. Yep. And then people wonder why our generation is like, oh, you're so strict with your kids. No, I'm trying to save their life. You're trying to save their life. Call me strict, but I am trying to protect them from what I went through. Yes. Yes. Especially with the ease of access. Yes. I mean. 370 million pages, web pages. That's insane. That's more than the population of the US. That is insane. That is insane. That's crazy.

Yeah. I mean, and then we're not even going to go into the whole, because that's a whole other can of worms, but I follow a page. It's people are not property. And it's talking about trafficking. And it's talking about abuse. Well, and it's also, like you mentioned earlier, it's not talking about the romance novels and the soft core stuff. The soft core. I mean, like Victoria's Secret. Tori, she shut everything down for Dustin. He doesn't get even magazines, like anything, right?

Like, it's saving. We go to the gym, or we used to be in the gym a lot, and it's like bouncing your eyes in a gym. Right. Because you're having to... Dear God. Okay. Can't... Okay. We actually... We had to quit a gym because a vast majority of the females were like teenagers and 20 -somethings and they would wear just a sports bra and tiny, tiny shorts. That was it. I'm like, babe, I can't. We're done. I'm like, I can't. I can't do this. And having that honesty is so important. So important.

Because I'm going to speak to the women. Shannae, you and I get to speak to the women on this one, okay? Because... You want your husband honest with you. Okay. Because sometimes it's, it's that lie of if I say something to my wife, she's not going to think that I think she's attractive. Oh, you're looking at other women. I need you to shut up. Right. Right. Shut up. He is trying to tell you something. He is trying to say, Hey babe. Hey, hi. Red flag. Like I need freaking

help right now. And we need to love them enough to say, absolutely. What do you need from me? What do you need from me? I will block you out of this situation. Yep, here, I'm taking you by the hand. Here we go. Because they do that for us, right? Like if we said, they should be. They should be. I'm on the phone with Luke on my way today. I told you guys, it's been a day, right? No big deal. But I'm like, just give me five minutes. Hey, baby, you got five minutes?

You know? Yeah. Right? Like, what can I do? Nothing. I just need you to hear me and just remind me I'm okay. Right. Remind me I'm okay. Is there anything that you... Babe, I'm just... I'm tired, babe. I know you're tired. Like, having these real conversations of, I am not... Levi, you're saying it. I am not as strong as I portray myself to be. Right. Like, I have got six foot three over here. Two hundred and a... Amazingness. $2 .65. $2 .65 of the most amazingness of stuff.

Yeah. And, baby, okay? Can you just hold me? Right. It's heavy out there. And we do not need to be helping in that pressure with our husbands. Right. So good. We need to be the place that is safe where they can put their guard down and

say, I am not okay. yeah as women though we expect like well my husband just needs to bear the brunt of everything and handle it he's the knight in shining armor yes yeah that's that's not realistic he's a human yeah he is but as wives and women we can be really terrible at shutting our husbands down yep You know, like, well, you're the husband, deal with it. Yeah, suck it up. No, I much prefer when my husband can come to me and say, hey, I'm really struggling with this. Yeah. I prefer

that. I don't need him to be everything for me. I just need him to be honest and open and real with me. And that shifted our marriage and made it stronger. Yeah. For sure. Because does it not? Like, literally, when we do that for them, that's like King Kong on cocaine, isn't it, baby? Yeah, it is. Like, all of a sudden, it's just like, I got you. I'm not going anywhere. We're going to battle this thing together. Oh, I will take that down. I will spider monkey that thing.

And we will bring it down. And every stronghold that tries to come up against, it will not stand. It's not going to come to our house. Yeah. So like real life example, what did you do with that? How was it for you when I sent you that text the other day from work? You remember what I'm talking about? No, remind me. I had turned on a movie. That's good, I guess. Maybe that you don't even remember. That's only like two, three weeks ago. I turned on a movie. She was

going to sleep. or you were falling asleep while I was watching it. I have an interest in sci -fi sometimes. She doesn't care, so I'm going to watch it. She's going to fall asleep. It's fine. Something else had kind of popped up, and it was just the words. There's no image or anything like that. As I was searching for this thing I was going for, and I clicked on it, and things like that will come up for 100 % sure. You're going to have struggles even after you tell your

wife. typically i could just push it to this like no leave me alone yeah for some reason the next day while i was at work it i could not get that word off my mind and it was like get on your phone go to that site watch that thing get on your phone go to that site watch that thing whatever you know and it was driving me nuts and like again typically i could just be like stop go away and this time i was like i'm not so i text you and i said i am having this thought

about this show in watching this thing. I want to tell you that because I think right now I just need to be honest with you on this to make this thing go away. It was like, hey, tell her. And so I did. And there could be a fear of like, gosh, I'm going to just set off alarm bells in her and she's going to be asking me for the next three weeks. But I knew because of where we've been and how honest we've been on different things, you would not respond like that. No, because

I'd rather know. I would rather know. And then, yeah, what can we do to help you and to get you past that? Yeah. She ended up being, she's like, wait, what was it? And she texted me back. She's like, that is not about anything you're thinking about right now. See, now I'm so curious. I was like, no, actually, that's like. That has nothing to do with that, actually. It's fine, but I'm

glad you told me. I remember what it was. Because then, too, it's just that little thought of curiosity just poking at him, poking at him, poking at him. It would not leave me alone. And typically I could. I think maybe it was just something where God was like, hey, tell her and you'll be free. And so it was just keeping that open. This is a year and a half later. It's almost like those weird obedience checks. I'm going to have you do this just to double check you're

still obedient. Because the freedom came out of honesty. The truth will set you free is a whole different meaning for me now. Seriously. I tried everything. And the truth set me free when I was finally 100 % truthful with you. And so in that one, it just was that way. I just had to tell her. And, you know, you have other guys in your life, too, that, like, I'll call you kind of thing. So those are good things to have, too. But that one was Tell Shannae. And,

yeah, it was Adult Swim. Oh. Yeah. It was just a black screen that said Adult Swim. She's like, it's a channel, babe. I'm sure there's something inappropriate on there, but it's not, like, what you're thinking. For some reason, that just, like, rang in my mind, and I could not get it off. And it was like, go there, go there, go

there. And I'm like, I don't know. don't even want to you know and so but telling her and it just from there it just went away it just disappeared yeah so anyway but it's like that you know he went through this process and one thing Dustin had told him early on was like you need to become so honest that you're honest to a fault yeah and it's like that's something he really took on yeah and he needed to do that because he had spent so long living in a cloud yeah where he

couldn't be honest and he didn't know that he couldn't be honest and so yeah something like that it's like yeah i can laugh about it because i'm like okay that's not that's not anything but like i'm glad you told me because that thing's been bugging you you need to tell me yeah so it's just good real life example but yeah um is there anything else you guys want to bring to the table Before we wrap up. Because you guys have been incredibly transparent. I'm very proud

of you guys. Very proud of you guys. Not that you need to hear it out of boy, out of girl from me and Luke, but genuinely, thank you guys. Number one, for entrusting us to be here. But number two, for not being scared to fight that thing. And knowing that it's not just you. Like, I think that that's what fuels, like, you're not the only ones. No, I mean, listen to the statistics. That is insane. You think, well, we can't tell anybody because nobody else is doing it. Everybody's

dealing with it. Yeah. Everybody's dealing with it. And nobody's talking about it. That's why it's a problem. 7 % of churches have a plan to deal with it. That's, that's devastating. That

is devastating. Yes, I agree. you said in the car on the way over here we were talking to and you said i knew one person i could call i yeah i mean like i had my i had my girls you know but it was like even then our relationship with our friends like these are our people yeah yeah y 'all are like y 'all are tight yeah and it's like but even then before this it was like we could only go so far like these are my siblings yeah you know yeah like we just can't go any

farther than this yeah but it's like now it's like yeah when shit's hitting the fan like these are the people we're going to right it opened up a whole new world for us and our friends too yes because we all started getting open and honest in their relationship tell me what you're doing to your life yeah but yeah like but outside of that i'm like with each other i only know one person on this planet who has been through this in their marriage that i can go to and that's

a problem yeah i'm glad i'm very thankful and i'm glad that i could go to tori yeah but i'm like yeah why is there only one person that i know of that i can talk to about this right yeah we gotta have more gotta have more conversations yeah being open and honest yeah yeah and you know i'm not here to make light of what happened and what i did to my family That really did happen.

It really did devastate and hurt things. And just because we're in a really good place now, I'm not trying to present an image that shows me in such a way or we're trying to twist the story to show me in such a way. I don't want that anymore, ever. I really did that to my family. And it was awful. And now we're on the other side and freedom. And I'm really grateful that I came to you about it and not just that we're

here now because you found out. Right. Well, because I specifically, I asked God, I said, I was like, God, what the hell? Yeah. Like this has been going on in my house when I have been in the house. Like, yeah. Yeah. Why? Why did I, why did I not know? Why did I not find out? And, and God was just straight up like. Because if you had found out without him telling you, you would not be where you are. Like the Lord was protecting me from finding him doing that.

Because he needed to be the one to come to me and be honest about it so that we could get through it. And it's like, yeah, I mean, again, seven years and not one time did I walk in on it or have any clue that anything was happening. But it was the Lord shielding me from it. Yeah. And it's like, okay, well, that really sucked, but I understand it. Because I do think, had I just found out on my own, this would be a whole different

situation. Yeah. I'll also say I appreciate you two illustrating that it wasn't an overnight or even within a week or a month process. That it was a process. Because I know we talk about, you know, like exposing things and, you know, just say it out, you know, say it out loud. You know, sunlight is the greatest disinfectant. You know, and oftentimes it's just like with healing. It's like, well, we prayed for healing.

Why aren't I healed immediately? You know, and it's like, it's as awesome as it is to hear those immediate stories and the now moments. It's like, it's also very good and reassuring to hear these, the process. Yeah. You know, that. Yes, it was a process. It was a struggle. It was climbing over obstacles and fighting this through. But every day we step forward. Every day we step together forward through this. So I appreciate that as well, that you guys are showing that

it wasn't just we had a conversation. I showed my phone and now, oh, look, now we're happy and good and free. Because you and I talk about habits even being broken. Like it becomes a habit. And so many times it's that stronghold. Yes, that stronghold lifts and all of the things happen. But now you have to get yourself out of the habit. And it's reframing those boundaries, like you were talking about, Shannae. And then it's also just discipline. One of Luke's favorite things

is... Self -control is one of the fruits of the Spirit. And it's like a lot of people don't want to talk about the discipline behind walking this with God. It's part of discipline is, yes, I am my brother's keeper or my husband's, my wife's, right? It's I get to walk with these people. I get to keep them. Not because I'm trying to push them down and trying to, because I want to elevate them and I want to make them better. Like we have this, the enemy has got it so twisted.

That you have to, in order to be a strong Christian, you have to be a perfect Christian. No, no, you don't. What makes you a strong Christian is you keep laying it to the feet of Jesus. Absolutely. And you keep going back and you keep going back and you keep going back. Absolutely. Yeah. Simple God, simple church. Just something that's just been resonating inside of me lately. Just like, just experience him for who he is, how he is. And he's so gracious. to talk to you in the way

that you can hear him. Amen. And to, to meet you in the way that you can meet with him. Like he's not making it hard. Before my relationship with God was difficult because I had to accomplish something to have one with him. You know, that's because I had this image, right? And now it's just like, no, I'm able to just meet him because

he's real. It's good. Like, and I'm real and I connect, he connects with me, you know, it's just, the way it is, one of my favorite things to say is there's no way I'm a better father than he is. Right. Yes. Very good at being a father and so willing and able to connect, you know, even. And so I think our main goal for today really was just the honesty because that's what set us free. The truth set us free. Yep.

And to reinforce that for anybody who's listening, if there's something there, a relationship at work you shouldn't have, emotional relationship, right? Like something, maybe you do just struggle looking here and there. Maybe you don't go to a website, but you scroll through Instagram on things you shouldn't or whatever. Come on, sir. That was somebody we knew. And, you know, another person, the emotional relationships thing. So,

like, other things like that. If there is something, God is hitting you on it right now, or it just keeps coming to your mind as we're talking, the truth will set you free. You've got to talk to your spouse about it. And I would encourage you to do that. Amen. And find accountability with people you trust to get yourself to do that. Yes. Or even if you're not married. Like, if you want to be married, figure this out now.

Yes. So you don't. That's good. ruined somebody else's life yeah you know like this is we know people who are engaged and i'm like have you laid everything out yeah have you just vomited all of it because if you haven't and you're trying to oh it's fine i don't we don't need to go no you need to go there no once we're married it won't come up ever again yeah actually it becomes magnified figure this out before you are married and my god before you have kids yeah yeah because

then you have to think about them yeah yeah yeah you know i don't want to say if we didn't have kids like oh we wouldn't be together but like in that moment the kids were truly the thing that kept it together gotcha yeah no no that's real that's my only reason was i have kids yeah so i can't I can't walk away from this because of them. What is that going to do to their life? I think we would have come back around, but I

definitely wouldn't have been in the house. But it probably would have been a much longer process of me dealing with the rage and the anger and the hurt. Not to say, I definitely felt all of it, went through all of it. I think it would have been prolonged. We even had some people around us who knew what was going on and some of the things that had been said from you to me and were like, oh, she shouldn't have said that. And I said, yes, she should have. She is

allowed to say anything she wants. Or, well, you shouldn't have put your hands on him. Well, that one I did say to you. In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have. Don't necessarily regret that. No, I hear you. I'm not going to condone, like, hey, go beat the crap out of your husband. Yeah. But, like, in that moment. Understood. Yeah. I didn't know what else to do. Yeah. And I did apologize for that. We worked through that, too. She's not, like, hitting me in the pants. She's

not hitting me in the face. It was here on my shoulder where she knew it wouldn't, like, damage me. The thing is, is he said, I'm not mad at you for that. You know? So, like. Even from him, he wasn't like, yeah, you shouldn't have done that. He was like, I just was giving you the space to feel what you felt and to react how you felt you needed to. He's told guys that you don't get to tell your wife how she should react.

If you're going to tell her this, you need to give her the space to feel what she's going to feel and say what she's going to say. Yeah, I did not allow the space for you to be real before. No. Because I wasn't. Yeah. But I didn't recognize that. Yeah. I had a religious thing on me or whatever, an image thing. And so when she was real at times, I'm like, all right, well, yeah, but we don't, come on, we need to get over that, blah, blah. Whereas now it's like, hey, I get

why you're frustrated. Yeah. I'm there with you. That's good. That's new for us, you know? Yeah, that's good. So anyway, we're. Yeah. I love that. We can go on and on and on, but. Yeah. Yeah, thank you guys, too, for opening this up for us. We were looking for, like, a way, a place to be real and honest. Yeah. And after a while, you know, this isn't like something that happened

to us three months ago, right? After a while, when we've worked through things and really been walking in freedom, we were like, we got to do something for people as much as we can with what we have, just our testimony. You know, I'm not here to say, I'm amazing at this now. No, like, I done messed up, and we've worked through that mess. And are still working through it. I know how to struggle and keep moving forward. Yeah,

exactly. Good for you, right? And so, yeah, we wanted to just, I want to say thank you for opening up this for us and working with us on this. This has been, this is really important to us. That's good. So if we have anybody out there, any listeners that are struggling in this boat. Need help. Need help. Have questions. I'm going to encourage you guys to reach out. Yes. Reach out to us.

Reach out to the O 'Briens. Is that cool? If you don't know how to get a hold of them, get a hold of us, and we will get you in contact with them. We'll connect you. Because that's what this is about. And there's no, like, we've walked this. I'm not going to be shocked if someone comes to me. I'm not going to be like, oh, my God. No, this is real life. And Levi's not going to shame somebody and say, hey, I'm dealing with this. Ooh, that's bad. You're supposed to be

a Christian. Something's wrong with you. No, we have walked this out. And it's still something we talk about. Because it's like, yeah, we've got to make sure that we're still aware of what's going on. making sure that he's still being honest, that I'm being honest about things. There's no shame and there's no judgment. Yeah. Because the enemy, he deems you as the weapon that you are. You are a weapon at this point. He has been found out. You are a weapon. And I'm proud of

you guys. Thank you. Genuinely. There's nothing else to say. I'm proud of you guys. Thanks for bringing this into this space with us. Yes. Yeah. Thanks for having us. Yeah. All right, guys. That was a long one. That was a good one. But it was good. Yeah. Anything else, babe? I think that everything has been said today. Happy Easter. Happy Easter. Let's go eat. Let's go eat like chocolate and ham and all the things. Yes. Resurrection life. Yes. That's genuinely what this is about.

It's good. It's resurrection life. And you keep saying it, Levi. It's like the freedom, the freedom, the freedom. He who the Son has set free is free indeed. Yes. Okay? So it's bringing it to the light and allowing him to resurrect you out of the dark. Yeah. Yes. You guys get to come alive again. Yeah. That's good. All right, guys. Have the best week. Enjoy the journey.