Note: We use AI transcription so there may be some inaccuracies
Danielle Cobo: Welcome to another episode of the Unstoppable Grit Podcast with Danielle Kobo. I'm excited because today's guest has 18 years as a professor pouring into graduate students. She is a wealth of knowledge. She is a three time author and the author of the book, Navigate, Understand the Five Types of People.
And that's what we're going to be digging into today is understanding the different types of people, who we are and who other people are. So that we can better work together in building grit and resilience and showing up in this world. So, so excited to have Dr. Shereen McHenry.
Sherene McHenry: I am thrilled to be with you, Danielle.
Thank you so much for this wonderful invitation.
Danielle Cobo: Well, so you wrote this book, Navigate, and I want to understand what inspired you to write the book, Navigate, and describe what these five types of people
Sherene McHenry: are. So what inspired me was Dr. Gary Chapman. He wrote The Five Love Languages. And he radically changed my life and literally all of my relationships changed with that little bit of information and I have faith is a very large part of my life.
And one day I was praying, it's like, would you please give me something as simple and profound as the love languages that would transform individuals, relationships and organizations around the globe. And this is what. got downloaded to me over time. It took me a while to see it. I was talking about it one day to my dad and he looks at me, he's like, you know, that's your five types.
And I'm like, oh gosh, I didn't even realize it right there. Couldn't see it.
Danielle Cobo: The Five Love Languages is one of my favorite books. In fact, I will oftentimes refer to the Five Languages of Appreciation in the workplace because I found that to be extremely valuable in understanding my team's core values, understanding the different various ways that they like to feel appreciated.
In fact, for our listeners out there, if you go back, and I'll have to remember even what the episode is, but over a year ago, I actually do do an episode based off the five languages of appreciation in the workplace by Dr. Gary Chapman. So go ahead and circle back and find that one.
Sherene McHenry: So Gary Chapman was one of my college professors.
And as I wrote the book, I reached out to him and he actually did the testimonial for it. So of course, that's a great point of pride for me. So the five types are high flyers, steady gliders, slackers, and hackers. And so my hunch is the vast majority of your listeners are high flyers.
They're driven. They're hardworking. They would rather dive and let somebody down. They're competitive. They want to be the best at what they do, and anything worth doing is worth doing right, and they have this standard of excellence that makes them an incredible person, an incredible employee, incredibly reliable, and incredibly at risk for burnout.
Because people either inadvertently overload their work capacity, or They take advantage of their generosity and of their work ethic. And so they make leadership look easy. All you have to do is give them a task. It will be done early and it will be done well. But what we have to do with these as leaders is we must ensure that we understand how much work they're actually doing and quit using them as our go to easy default.
Because if you're not thinking about it, you're just going to give it to your right hand person because then the stress is off your plate. And what we've got to do is take care of them. And what high flyers have to learn to do is to say no, no thank you if they want to be polite. And in the book we have seven ways that you can say no without soundbite.
Danielle Cobo: Okay, so I can relate to a high flyer and understand that wanting, you give me a task, I'll do it, it'll be done right. But I also understand those challenges of saying yes to everything and then creating the burnout and the busyness. What I've learned is in setting boundaries is yes, you can say no. I also believe in reframing it and saying, let's say, for example, somebody asks you to help with a project leading with yes, while also creating boundaries.
So yes, I can absolutely help with that project. I currently have a time sensitive project that I'm working on right now. So. can I start helping you next week when this project's complete? Or should we find somebody else, to help with this project if it is time sensitive as well? So it's a way of leading with yes, while also setting
Sherene McHenry: boundaries.
I love it. It's very skillful. It's very helpful. It doesn't put you on somebody else's ride and timetable, and yet it still shows that wonderful willingness. Leading with a yes is a brilliant way to do that.
Danielle Cobo: I've also learned, too, that when we are saying yes to one thing, one action, We're saying no to another.
And I recently experienced a burnout where I found myself saying yes to everybody. I was working all day and then I didn't have time to necessarily have calls. And so people would ask me, Oh, can you talk in the evening? And so I'd work during the day, then I'd help my kids with their homework and bedtime routine and then put them to bed.
And then I'd be on phone calls at night. And I finally said, Enough is enough. I'm saying yes to myself, my time for me to relax and recharge, because otherwise I'm saying yes to everybody else, and no to myself.
Sherene McHenry: And what I want to say is, So many people fail to realize that and they don't say yes to themselves and then they're doing everybody else's work.
I call them the parade pooper scoopers and what happens is their dreams get squandered and they aren't accomplished because there's only so much energy and time that each of us has. And what you described is so perfect. You worked all day, then you gave to your kids, and then you gave away your own time, and burnout is the result.
What else can happen? because what you would give up next would be sleep. And so I just want to tell you how proud I am of you for saying no, leading with a yes, and for starting to say I can't say yes to everything. Because you're probably like me, everything sounds really exciting in the moment. And then all of a sudden it's like, I thinking, so I hope that your listeners can grab this.
And one of the things that I love to do is give permission to people to take care of themselves. Because you're worth it, your primary relationships are worth it, your hopes and dreams are worth it, and you've got to be so careful because if you don't take care of yourself, burnout is the result. I've done it, sounds like you have, and that's a pretty scary place to be.
Danielle Cobo: Yeah, it absolutely is, and I think that lot of times what we can do is we can always find a way to lead with yes, while also setting parameters and boundaries of when that yes is. So yes, I can absolutely have a conversation with you. The best hours of the day are in the, between 9 and 4 p. m.
And I set those boundaries now. And, and if it doesn't work, then they will adjust their schedule accordingly. Because I am not going to Yeah, or find somebody else because the reality is, is if we are saying yes to everything and we're burning ourselves out, we're really not going to be able to serve other people because we're going to be so burnt out that we're going to be exhausted and tired and overwhelmed and frustrated.
We're going to start to get resentful of people and that's not going to be in service to
Sherene McHenry: anybody. I agree. And I want to say, I bet your children are happier because what they hear is that they're a priority. And I bet every primary relationship. is happier because what they know is that they're getting the best of you and that you love them and care about them enough to protect your time and energy.
And that's the gift I want all high flyers to have because otherwise high flyers just. get way too much work, then they do get resentful, they get burned out. Maybe they go somewhere else. And if it doesn't get resolved, and they stay to become hackers, and that means they're unhappy, and they're causing problems.
So, so
Danielle Cobo: in addition to the high fires, what's the second personality type?
Sherene McHenry: Second type is a steady glider. They are first cousins to the high flyer. They are reliable, hardworking, conscientious. They are a little bit different in that they chunk stuff out. They don't want to be the leader. They want to be on a team.
They'll turn down promotions. Because they're happy in their job and they love what they're doing and they really want to show up at work at nine o'clock and leave at five o'clock and not have to worry about it until eight fifty nine the next morning. And so the savvy leader. Understands that not everyone is driven to the top of the heat that because somebody says no doesn't mean that they're not ambitious.
That's not their dream. That's not their goal. It's not their life space. Maybe in five years it could be their life space. And so with steady gliders, we want to acknowledge that they are values based and they are values based primarily with their family, their community and their passions. And so we need to value them and then they need mentoring high flyers.
They know they'll figure out a way to get it done. Steady gliders have a bit of a freak out with new jobs and new assignments and new tasks. They go. And then you have to go, but in the past you did X, Y, and Z, and they go, oh yeah, remember. And we need to check in on them more because they're learning skills and they're acquiring confidence and competence.
And so it takes a little bit more work as a leader, but you get so much more if you treat them with the dignity that says your values are important and you mentor them into the. Person that they are becoming and can become. So these people are often made to feel as though they are again unambitious, unimportant and not enough.
And I want to give voice to them and say no, you are enough and You are the social glue of workplaces. You're the one who slows down long enough to care about people. You are needed and you are valued. So that's my heart for every leader is to understand their study gliders.
Danielle Cobo: We all have a place in this world.
We all add value and we get to remind ourselves of that every single day. Couldn't agree more. Okay, so number three
Sherene McHenry: are lackers. So all of us are lackers at some point. And what a lacker is, is somebody who continues to run into the same brick wall. They continue to have the same problem. They continue to trip up over the same thing.
Can be incredibly frustrating for leaders because what most leaders do is they make the assumption that it is a skill set problem. And so they send them for more training. And what I want to say to you is if it works, They were simply lacking in knowledge. It truly was a skill set problem. But most of where we get tied up in life is a mindset problem.
And so a mindset problem is something else is going on. And it doesn't matter how much training you give it until they resolve the underlying problem, they're going to continue to have problems. So my first job, terrible fit. I had done, assistantship and career services at the University of South Carolina when I was getting my master's degree.
So I know how to interview. I got a job and it never occurred to me. I was so uninsightful to not give the right answers. And so I told them everything I had been taught and been teaching people and I got my first job and it was the worst fit, Danielle. Not good personality wise, not good for my patient base, not good for my skill sets.
And within a year I was clinically depressed. And my didn't get work done, came in late, was just really struggling. And so my boss trying to help me, sent me to a Franklin Covey time management seminar and didn't work. and I finally reached a point where I went and got counseling. I learned who I was, what I want to learn to tell myself the truth.
figured out it was a terrible job fit and then began to make my way into what I loved and what I had discovered were my patient basis. And so what we need to do is It's a leader mindset problem, skill set problem, skill set, training works, mindset. We have to dig deeper, not your job to self diagnose, not your job to provide the I'll get you over the hump.
Our job is to say what's going on. You're struggling. It would have been a really different conversation had my boss said to me, Shereen, you're struggling. You're not getting your work done. You're not happy. You're not coming in on time. I'm worried. Help me understand what's going on. I probably would have been a of tears and I would go, no, I'm not happy.
And she might've said, well, let's figure out what you need to figure out. And that's my job then would have been to go to counseling, to work with a coach, to do whatever it took for me to write the mindset. And again, she was incredibly supportive when I did go to counseling and she and I have reconnected all these years later.
And I was able to tell her, thank you for being who she was. She cared about me. I wish she had been able to say what's going on. People need that question.
Danielle Cobo: Yeah, they absolutely do. It's always good to check in with your employees and go beyond just the workplace and ask them, How are you doing? Absolutely.
What's going on in your life? You know, what's keeping you up at night? What do you enjoy doing on the weekends? And really getting to understand and know your team because I've seen high performers who have been highly successful, go through rough patches within their business and coming from a background in medical sales.
And a lot of times what I've noticed is, is it's not necessarily that that person is lacking. There's just something that's going on in their life that may be affecting how they're showing up at work, and it's important that we address that mindset.
We support them.
Sherene McHenry: I couldn't agree more, and one of the things we have in our society is what's called a flu model for grief, which means if you lose somebody, the world wants you back in a week to be back who you were, and the research on grief and loss just says that's not possible. It just isn't how it works.
So we need to know what's going on. And the other thing that can cause people to show up as lackers is trauma. And what I really want your listeners to recognize is if a traumatic event occurs, they need a trauma trained counselor. Otherwise, a counselor who's not trained will retraumatize them. And one of the really cool things that I just learned within the last year, keeping up with the research is.
When something traumatizing happens, the research says, get out your phone and start to play games. And what happens is, the memory doesn't get lodged in our brain in a traumatized way. It almost is like it vaporizes. And I've used it and it works. It's amazing. And so trauma is, again, something that we are encountering.
Heinous things happen in our world, and God forbid they ever happen in your listeners' personal lives or in their workplaces, but we need to be skilled and know at least a little bit about trauma so that we can be the best leaders that we can be.
Danielle Cobo: It's interesting that you talk about the creative flow process because when I went through my experience, I went through a traumatic experience in 2020 where I just felt like every ask.
In In my book, Unstoppable Grit, I talk about the value of getting into the creative flow and finding something that you're passionate about without having a direct result and how that can help through the healing and coping process of what you're going through and how it can help release some of that trauma.
So it's actually a section in my book where I talk about the value of the creative flow.
Sherene McHenry: I love it. Don't you love how things just dovetail? And that creative flow puts us in a different state where we're not thinking about the traumatization and so you're spot on and I can't wait just to delve more into that in your book.
Danielle Cobo: so we've got a couple more personalities. What's the next
Sherene McHenry: one? The fourth one are slackers. And that's what the rest of the world who doesn't understand them calls them. You're such a slacker. Why don't you get your work done? Fine. Give it back. I knew I couldn't trust you. This is the person who the leader says, why don't people just do their job?
And these people absolutely baffle high flyers in particular. And so here's what I want you to know is. Yes, there are lazy people in this world. There truly are slackers who do not feel bad about you doing more so that they can do less. But that is not the overwhelming majority of people. What they are, are rockets.
And so just like a rocket sits on a launch pad, down in Houston or in Florida. is a lot going on behind the scenes. And then what activates the rocket is the beginning of the countdown. So it's 10, 9, 8, 7. And that's what a deadline does for a rocket 6, 4, 3, 2, 1. And then the engines start to churn and the fuel gets mixed.
And then all of a sudden it's, we have And these rockets, if leaders understand them, and when rockets understand themselves, they can go so far. I mean, we have things out in space that are beyond Mars because a rocket launched it there. And so the biggest thing that leaders need to know is that these are not evil, heinous people, that sometimes they're unaware of how their behavior impacts other people.
So you have to hold them accountable. Hey, when you miss the deadline, that's a lot of pressure on me. Hey, when you turn in something, it needs to be accurate. Those types of things, which you would never have to say to a high flyer. But if we will recognize deadlines are what activate They're creative juices.
It's what gets them working very quickly, and they're able to work almost always longer, faster and harder than anyone because they've been thinking about it for a long time. And so like for me, I am a rocket, and I call myself a high performance rocket so my preferred mode is rocket. I love as the time ticks down and I have to get an adrenaline rush it gets everything thinking faster, and then it forces me to work really hard and fast.
Because I don't like the steady glider approach of chunk it out. That's the kiss of death for me. And I'm a, again, a rocket and a high flyer, but I don't have a bone in my body that says, get a job, get it done, and then you'll feel better. I'm like, oh, I want to think about that. And so deadlines are your best friend as a leader with a rocket.
Hold them. And if you need it Friday at noon, You tell them you need it Wednesday at noon, and some of you are going, that would be a lie. No, it's not a lie. You need it Wednesday at noon to ensure that if there's any immaturity or something goes wrong, you actually have it in time. And so, to a high flyer, you can say, Oh, I need that by Friday, but if you can't get to it, Monday's fine.
don't worry about it. Do you know what the fuck it hears? If you ever say you can't do that, don't worry about it. Wah, wah, wah. And they literally stand down from the launch pad and they go, it's not important. And there's nothing that activates them. So deadlines, quality control, and rockets, you want them on your team.
Now, some of you are going, Oh, I still don't know if I want a rocket on my team. The answer is yes, you want a high performance rocket. And so they need to do their job. They need to get things done. Well, they need to get them done on time. They can do all of those things with really good leadership and without driving you to drink.
And then the gift that they bring to the workplace is they respond so well in crisis. Something unexpected comes up, they go, Oh, well, all we have to do is, and you'll look at them and you'll go, Can you do that? And they'll go, Of course I can. And then they go do it. And so they have a really different way of looking at the world and everything just hyper focuses and they're able to come up with solutions.
You want them on your team. You just don't want them to drive you to drink.
Danielle Cobo: So I would assume that many people may see them as procrastinators. However, it's that just they do better. in shorter amount of time during that rocket launch, and that's when they're the most effective. So I agree with you that when it comes to setting a timeline, if it's due Friday, tell them
Sherene McHenry: Wednesday.
Always build in your buffer, otherwise you are living under anxiety. And you just have to learn to trust them, and they have to show you that they are trustworthy. And you need to hold them accountable. And that means literally having a conversation. And if you have to have a conversation twice, it's like, hey, We've talked about this, what's really going on, what help do you need, and maybe they have.
Something they're lacking in and they need to go work on that. But most of the time, it is just how they work. I love, truthfully, I love being a rocket. I love working hard, working smart, working really fast. I love solving things on the fly. I really love being a rocket. And then the part of me that is the high flyer, high flyers are high flyers across the spectrum.
I'm on a high flyer in my speaking and my writing. I don't want there to be a better speaker you ever hire, and I want you to read impeccably written, rich, life changing books that I write. The rest of the world I don't care a whole lot about. Unless I'm learning a sport, in which case I want to be good at whatever sport I decide is important to me.
But the rest of the world, it's like, I don't know if I get it great, if I don't, great. You know, I'd get a B in school, my mother's like, but you could have an A. Who cares? You know, just, I don't know if that makes any sense. We're just polar opposites of. High flyers and we need both in the workplace and we just need to honor both.
And if you are a rocket, I'm going to give you a clue. It is going to be easier for you to adjust to your boss and to somebody else who is highly anxious than for them to adjust to you. And if you will prove consistently over time that you are trustworthy, they will begin to trust you and they will have their stress level go way down.
They just can't do your ride. Don't take them on your ride. They would go up six inches, fall over and be out of commission. So don't ask a high flyer to do that.
Danielle Cobo: No, no. They like to get things on time or early. It was the philosophy as early as on time, on time as late and late is unacceptable.
That was the philosophy that was poured into me in my career.
Sherene McHenry: Absolutely. And who else would come up with that than a high flyer? A really high functioning high flyer. All right, so can we talk about the last
Danielle Cobo: one? Yes, let's talk about the last one.
Sherene McHenry: The last one or half. And hackers are, there are three types I've identified.
There are lacker hackers. They are lacking conflict resolution skills. They don't know what to do. They may not be able to self regulate their emotions very well. They feel attacked if anybody has the audacity to disagree with them. And boy, they can blow up and eviscerate people. So they're in their face, they're yelling at them.
They're becoming passive aggressive. They're giving people a silent treatment. They are lacking a critical skill set for leaders and for life satisfaction. And so If you do not have conflict resolution skills, you need conflict resolution skills. If you are a leader, your people need conflict resolution skills.
was working with a really large company and was doing management training for all their new managers and one of the senior vice presidents came up afterward and he said, You know, this past year I got very angry at one of my coworkers and I began to yell at him in a meeting and I did it because I love my company.
And I said, Oh, I love that you are loyal and love your company. And you're going to need some conflict resolution skills. He's like, Oh my gosh, that's what my wife tells me. I'm like, well, how long can we be? And so I, they brought me back for employee wellness day. And he said, do you remember me? I'm like, of course said, I went and got some conflict resolution skills.
I'm so proud of you. Everything is better. But do you want to know what really got him to going? They told him if he ever did that again, he would no longer work with them. And that's what leadership is, is saying hacking behavior is psychologically unsafe. It is not going to be tolerated here. It is destructive.
It ruins the culture and we will not tolerate hacking behavior. So there's the lacker hacker, unskilled mindset, skill set, maybe both. Then the second one are the covert hackers. They're the people who act really nice to your face and helpful to your face, and they stir the pot behind your back. And you often don't know until there are, like, friction starts to happen.
But it's gossip, it's innuendo, it's misdirection, it's lying about the facts, it's pitting people against each other. These are a cancer on your team. If you know that somebody is a gossip, You need to say we will not gossip on this team because if they're gossiping to you, they will gossip about you. You need to listen.
When you interview them, how do they talk about their other boss, their other work and other people? Because if they do it to anybody else, you will be next. It doesn't matter. how long it takes. It will eventually have. So those are the behind the scenes cancerous behaviors. And then there are the overt hackers.
They are actively causing problems and do not. So the Gallup poll, about 33 percent of American workers say that they are committed to their work into their workplace. About 50 percent say they're passively disengaged, and a whopping 17 percent say that they are actively disengaged and trying to cause problems.
That's the covert hacker and the overt hacker. And then within that overt hacker, There are people in there who have some mental health issues and who actually delight in tormenting people. They pick a target, they bully them, they bully in front of other people, they do it in front of leaders and it's the leader's job to be brave and courageous and to say, we are going to disagree and we will do it civilly.
The tone of this conversation is no longer professional in nature and that you need to create psychologically safe workplaces if you want to retain your best talent and if you want to get the best out of them. And so that is a leader's job can be terrifying. And our job is to say not on my watch. That is not acceptable.
So those are who the hackers are.
Danielle Cobo: And if there's one thing that I learned from leading a team for an organization is if the hackers are not addressed early on and Had discussions early on they can be the ripple effect of causing a cancer within the organization And they can spread like a wildfire.
So just one hacker could ignite a fire within your team and engulf the team in negativity that have negatively affects the culture and it's so important to address that. Early on and direct,
Sherene McHenry: you know, you are so right. And that is so well said. When I was a professor, we had a very terrible relationship, the faculty and the administration potato, potato, black, white, whatever the other one said, it was just opposite.
And we had a new president come in and he went to every college and he spent about an hour with us. And I remember two sentences. He said, I have an open door policy. You can talk to me about anything. But you will do it civilly. 800 faculty turned on a dime and it became a very civil place. New president came in, didn't set the rules.
Within six months, the faculty had done a vote of no confidence and gone on strike. And it was even worse than it was before the one who set the boundaries. The leadership matters. Set it from the beginning. And if you're like, hey, I have these people. I didn't set it from the beginning. I haven't known what to do with them.
I want you to follow the route of one of the people that attended one of the presentations I gave. When she called and asked me if I would come and work with her organization, she said, I realized I had three hackers on my team and I was not going to be outwitted by a hacker. And so I began to set boundaries and began to hold them accountable.
The first one I, fired. The second one, I set the boundaries and they quit and the third one followed suit. She said, and then I was able to hire a healthy team and it takes so much courage. And, you know, we've rushed on these. I want to encourage people to like, get the book, navigate, understanding the five types of people become skilled in dealing with difficult people, understand who you are so you can bring out the best in yourself and then understand who your people are so you can bring out the best in them.
This information is It's deceptively simple. And somebody once said to me, just because something is simple doesn't mean it's easy. It takes courage and it takes intentionality and it is worth every bit of your effort and every bit of your listeners efforts if they want to succeed in life, if they want to be incredible leaders, if they want to lead organizations that are psychologically safe, and that Creativity, individuals, and the organization are just a burst and doing phenomenally.
It takes courage and intentionality, but it can be done. And that's why I get so patient about it. So you have heard my heart and my passion and what it is that I desire for your listeners and for us. life is easier when we understand ourselves and other people.
Danielle Cobo: It absolutely is. When we can understand ourselves, we can better understand the people that we're working with and collaborate and create healthy teams and environments and a more fulfilling career.
And so I'm so grateful that you came on and shared these five different types of people. And I would encourage our listeners, I will include a link in the show notes for you to pick up the book on Amazon and you can dive deeper because as, Dr. Shereen had shared it. We're just going into a high level overview of the five different personality types, however, you want to take a deep dive.
You want to better understand you and better understand the people that you're working with because we spend more time at work than we often do at home and we want it to be an environment where we enjoy the people that we're working with and we're lifting up the skill sets of other people.
Sherene McHenry: Well said.
Well said. You are wise beyond your years, Danielle. I love your work. I love this podcast. Love being a guest today. And it's just delightful to glean your wisdom and life experience, especially out of the corporate world. So thank you for the privilege. And I'm so grateful for every listener who's listening to this.
We believe in you.
Danielle Cobo: Absolutely. Well, for those of you listening, I'd be curious. Share with us what you believe your personality type is. Go ahead, post it on LinkedIn or on Instagram, tag us in it, and share this episode with your colleagues, friends, and families, and try to have a fun game of trying to determine What personality type are you?
And be sure to review this episode on Apple podcast or Spotify so that we can continue to spread the knowledge and building unstoppable grit. Thanks for tuning in and until next week, be unstoppable.