Note: We use AI transcription so there may be some inaccuracies
Danielle Cobo: If you have ever felt like life has knocked you down and found it hard to rise again, today's guest story is the resilience roadmap you've been looking for. Today's guest was diagnosed with cancer, not one, but four times. So her story then takes an unbelievable twist because just when she thought she was on the and found road to recovery, Doctors discovered a brain aneurysm on the brink of hemorrhaging.
She faced not one, but three brain surgeries in just eight days to repair the aneurysm. To say our guest has been through the ringer would be an understatement. So, please welcome the author of Revisionary Thinking and the Successful Struggle, Courtney Clark. Hi, Danielle. Thanks for having
Courtney Clark: me.
Danielle Cobo: Uh, well, thanks for joining.
we met at NSA Influence for the Speakers Association. And... We were dancing on stage. We were dancing The Crush on stage. And I'm in the back of the stage, you come around, you grab my arm, you bring me to the front, and we are dancing all sorts of moves from the 80s, the 90s, in front of over a thousand people.
And it was such an incredible experience because I just remember this moment where you just had this warm smile and said, come on girl, let's come up.
Courtney Clark: Well, that is a life lesson right there. You bring the energy. Somebody is going to pull you to the front of the pack. That's what happens.
Danielle Cobo: It was so much fun.
I've got it on video and anytime that I want to look at me dancing ridiculous on stage, it's going to be that moment. Me
Courtney Clark: too. Me too. I practiced so hard to be able to
Danielle Cobo: do that. Yeah. Cause you started out right from the beginning with only a handful of people and you guys had memorized these dances and then brought up some of the audience members onto the stage.
Courtney Clark: Yes. A little bit to make people laugh. That's one of my favorite things to do.
Danielle Cobo: Well, let's kind of get into your story because when I first met you, I said, wow, this, woman is beautiful. She's kind. She's such a warm, soul the minute I meet you. But then I read your story and I could not believe what you have overcome.
In your life, and yet still to have this positive energy around you. So share with our listeners, I'm just so intrigued. When you found out that you had cancer, how did you feel?
Courtney Clark: At 26 when I was diagnosed, it rocked my life. That is not a thing you expect in your 20s, 30s, even 40s. And it really, turned my life upside down.
I went through a divorce because of my cancer. it revealed some things and I got married young and, it revealed some things in my marriage that, were just going two different ways. and my whole life turned upside down really within a year. and a year where I felt like all of my friends were moving forward and I was in many ways.
Moving backwards, rebuilding, starting over. And, that's very frustrating. But, I remember having this feeling of like, Okay, that's it, I've, climbed my mountain, You know, everybody gets like, one big challenge in life, And I've overcome it, and I did it, And now it's gonna be smooth sailing.
Ta da! And, whoops, that was not the case. I was diagnosed with cancer again, and then at what was supposed to be my five year cancer free visit, that is when the doctors found an aneurysm in my brain, it was close to hemorrhaging, and we wouldn't have found it if it hadn't been for the cancer, so I had three brain
Danielle Cobo: surgeries.
Okay, so some people say... that might be a silver lining in the, okay, well, if there was anything good that came out of cancer, it was the fact that you found your brain and aneurysm. What are your thoughts on silver
Courtney Clark: have complicated feelings about all of that. I absolutely believe that positive things come out of negative things all the time. And I don't ever want anyone who's struggling to feel like, Oh, if I don't find the silver lining in my struggle, then I'm not a good person, then I'm negative.
a lot of times we don't know the outcomes of the things that happen to us in life, or our decisions, till years and years and years down the road. so I don't like to oversimplify. And say silver lining, but it is certainly true for me that if I had looked at my cancer and just said, Oh, this is terrible.
I'm so unlucky. The universe must hate me. That would also be wrong. some bad things happened because of it, but some good things happen because they never would have found my brain aneurysm if we hadn't. been looking for cancer. so I am incredibly lucky. also, a lot of times I hear people say things like, Oh, Courtney, you are so lucky.
You were spared for a reason. you're here for a reason. And I fully appreciate the compliment that I know that those people mean. And. It's hard for me because I have lost a lot of friends to cancer. and so I struggle with the idea that for some reason I got spared but they didn't. They left behind spouses, young children.
That doesn't seem right or fair. And so don't know that I think that everything happens for a reason, but I do think that when these things happen, it is our job to make meaning out of them. So not that it was predestined a long time ago, but that it did happen. It's done. Now, what do we do? We can make meaning out of it.
We can put it into context so that we can move
Danielle Cobo: forward. Yeah. So, I mean, in those moments where you're hearing that you've had cancer multiple times and you've got this brain aneurysm, did you ever feel like you had hope in those moments? I had a lot of hope.
Courtney Clark: good news, what gave me hope in those moments is this feeling like, well, wait, I have done this before.
Right, when I was diagnosed with cancer the second time, the third time, the fourth time, when I had the brain aneurysm, as distraught as I felt every single one of those times, I could look back and reflect back on proof that I am a woman. able to choose great doctors and make great, smart decisions and plan and prepare and be strong and survive.
So I really,had evidence, that gave me reason to have hope. And There were a lot of times that I didn't have hope, and that's just an honest fact. the brain surgery was so much harder than the cancer surgeries for me. I was in so much pain. About ten days, I think, consciousness was a moving target for me.
but I was in so much pain that I looked up at my newlywed husband. I'd gotten remarried, and we had been married less than a year. II looked up at my new husband as he was taking care of me and I said, I should never have had the surgery. I should have just waited for the aneurysm to rupture. So I could have died in peace.
And on the one hand. it's embarrassing to have said that because I am so incredibly lucky, to be alive and I would never wish that away, but I share that with people, even though it's embarrassing, because I do think that there is a cultural expectation. You know, we love to hear the stories of heroes and people who are so strong and have been through something and, you know, they just never, they had hope the whole time and never had a moment of doubt.
And they were tough and they were strong and they beat it. And you can be just like that too. And if you're not. You stink. and so I share that because I think it's very important for people to know that it's not linear. That to be strong does not look like being positive 24 hours a day. To be strong, looks like digging deep, even when you're not feeling positive, even when you don't have hope, that's real strength.
Danielle Cobo: I appreciate the authenticity and vulnerability in saying that because so often when we're going through challenges, people will look at us and say, Oh, you're so strong. You've got everything put together. I wish I had the strength and resilience that you do. But sometimes they don't always know what's going on in the inside that we may be experiencing stress and anxiety and uncertainty.
but when we share the struggles that we're going through and how we're feeling, it actually opens up connection and it opens up the ability for people to come in and say it's not about sympathy. It's about empathy and walking alongside somebody and saying, I'm right here with you.
Yeah. And. I remember a moment when I was going through, I suffered from severe postpartum depression after the birth of my twins. And I remember this moment of looking at my husband and I'm in complete tears. I wasn't eating. And when I would eat, I would be throwing up. I was dehydrated.
I was exhausted. My newborns had just come out of the NICU. We had just had a category five hurricane come through. I remember looking at my husband and saying, I just want to go to sleep and never wake up. I didn't want to take my life. I never felt that moment. It's almost as if I wanted my life to be taken from me.
And that's even hard to say out loud now that I've gone through it. But I believe it's important to understand that when you see people who have overcome these challenges, it's not always easy. It's not as though we had this positive mindset throughout the entire time, there's moments where we really struggle through the process.
Courtney Clark: That's right. That's absolutely right. And I think what you're talking about too is sharing the humanity. Of that, right? The like sympathy and empathy, but and also just when we can talk about those things that is being a human, as children, we go to school and like, these kids get A's and these kids get D's, but none of them came in knowing anything that they know the whole process is learning something.
And that's like all of these life challenges are that too, Some people may be more inclined to, bounce back or whatever you want to call it. Some people may be more inclined to feel positive. And other people struggle with that. But nobody's getting graded anymore. The reality is we are all just like learning and figuring out our method and doing our homework.
Danielle Cobo: Yeah, doing your homework, because that was an aspect that people will always ask me is, well, how did you overcome it? and first it was a self awareness to say, okay, I have postpartum depression. That's self awareness is the first step. And then the second step to that Is taking action and getting the help.
So I remember laying in the hospital. I've got an IV hooked up to me because I'm dehydrated. And I'm Googling nighttime nannies to help with feeding schedules in the middle of the night so that I can get some sleep. I remember looking up psychologists that did cognitive behavioral therapy and specialize in postpartum depression because I knew that if I wanted a way to move forward.
forward and that taking action and getting the resources that I needed, even though I didn't feel in the moment that it was, I just almost felt like so overwhelming. I couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel, but I was at least able to take steps in getting the resources to help me get to the point that I could see the light at the end of the
Courtney Clark: tunnel.
Yeah. They say, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time, right? Like, you can't fix the problem from laying there in a hospital bed. Your hospital bed, my hospital bed. But you can go, okay, what's the next thing? So, social scientists say that there's two kinds of coping. There's problem focused coping and emotion focused coping.
this is actually what they're referring to when they joke that, like, women just want a man who won't try to solve their problem for them, but listen, don't have any data to support that, like, men prefer problem focused coping and women prefer emotional focused coping. We all need to be good at both.
You can't actually just do one or the other. The reason for that is because if you're faced with a problem that does have a solution, You need to be deploying problem focused coping, but sometimes there are remnants of the problem left over or a whole problem that cannot be fixed. And then you have to be willing to use emotion focused coping.
So if you're using emotion focused coping, just start trying to kind of feel better about a problem that can actually be fixed. You're just, you're like, you're stewing, you're talking through it, but you're not fixing it, you should be fixing it. If you have a problem that cannot be fixed, and you refuse to use a motion focus scoping, and you're like, no, I have to solve it, I have to fix it, but it can't be fixed, then you're also going to be really hurting yourself.
So, if you think you have an imbalance, if you're better at one than the other, then it's like, what can you do? So, in your case. You sought support in multiple areas, right? You sought that like tactical support of like, I cannot be in five places at once. How do I duplicate myself? This is a problem I can solve.
And then how do I emotionally fortify myself? With internal skills that I need, you did both.
Danielle Cobo: Oh, that's a very good self reflection, I never really thought about that. But you did it. I
Courtney Clark: did it. Instinctively, and now going forward, you'll be looking at a problem and you'll be going, okay, which tool to deploy first.
But you have both in your arsenal. the more we have both in our toolboxes, the better off we'll be.
Danielle Cobo: My husband and I have, when we're facing some challenges, we will approach each other, and the first thing I'll say to him is one of two things. I'm coming to you because I have a challenge, a problem, and I'm looking for some solutions.
This is how I'm thinking about approaching it, and I want your suggestions, advice. Or I'm coming to him and I'm saying, I want you to listen. And I want to share my thoughts, but I'm not looking for you to solve the problem. Yeah, but at least that's the intention for the conversation. And then he knows how to support me.
Yes,
Courtney Clark: that'll head off a lot of marital miscommunication right there, regardless of the genders involved, right? Like, here's the help I want.
Danielle Cobo: And I see that applying in our professional lives as well. If you are experiencing a challenge at work with a colleague, you're feeling burnt out or stressed out, and you go to your manager and just having that conversation in that approach ahead of time, either I'm looking to have the problem solved, or I'm just looking emotional support that also helps your manager know what way to best support.
You and how to respond because I've had colleagues. I've had people on my team where they were Facing some challenges where their kids were not thriving in school and they were getting calls from the principal and they were just feeling Overwhelmed and distraught and at that moment. She wasn't looking for me to solve a problem because quite Honestly, I didn't have the answers on how to solve the problem, but just to be able to talk it through and have somebody be a listening ear and saying.
What does support look like for you? And I'm here to just listen, helped her, feel better.
Courtney Clark: And that's such a good point too. I think since COVID especially this line, the work life balance, whatever lines that there were have been obliterated because often now we work in our homes, and we take meetings in our homes and our spouses, our kids, our pets.
Walk into the frame. I mean, there's just not the delineation. So what do we then do for ourselves to sort of build up our fortitude? because yeah, whatever work life balance did exist, I think it's gone.
Danielle Cobo: And you know what, I'm glad that it is, because if we're going through a divorce, if we're going through cancer, if we're going through challenges possibly with our kids, and maybe some school challenges, It's going to affect us and how we show up in our professional capacity.
And the same goes for if we're at work and we're feeling burnt out and we're feeling overwhelmed, and maybe we feel like our manager is micromanaging us, we might feel like we're about to lose our job, that's then going to come home. And oftentimes, we'll be irritable, we'll be angry, we'll be kind of short sighted on things.
So I don't believe in having two different lives. In order for us to be truly authentic. it's going to go, personal's going to go into professional, professional's going to go into personal. And it's important to have those open and honest conversations with your manager, with your spouse, with your kids, on maybe what challenges you're facing so that you can get the support that you need to thrive in all areas of your life.
Courtney Clark: I think that you're right. I think that there's a lot of good, to be had from those boundaries crumbling down, but speaking of boundaries, when we had stronger walls between the two, I think it might have been easier for folks to at least have like, okay, this is this safe space.
This is going well, or this is the safe space. And with that gone, I think that folks, are going to need to work harder. And continue to work harder to protect themselves. it's okay to have boundaries. it's good to have boundaries and you just get to decide what they are. It doesn't have to be work doesn't come into personal and personal doesn't come into work.
If that doesn't work for you, But you do get to choose what that is. And that's hard for me. I certainly wasn't, taught how to have good boundaries growing up. and then now I work in a field where I love to help people. and when I share my stories and my struggles, other people share them back.
and that is a blessing, not a burden. But I have to remember my own boundaries that, I have to be responsible for my choices in my life. so That's been an interesting lesson for me to learn as I help people, is how to make sure like, okay. I'm helping myself so somebody taught me you can't pour from an empty cup.
And I really like that.
Danielle Cobo: No, I absolutely agree with you because there's value in having the personal and professional and sharing both sides of our lives and showing up authentically as ourselves. And at the same time, there is value in having boundaries. itself. So let's kind of talk about boundaries because I believe that this is an area that a lot of people do struggle with.
What are some ways that you have either deployed boundaries in your life or have recommended that other people deploy boundaries? So I think
Courtney Clark: for most of us, it's really realizing it's about getting perspective. so in terms of deploying boundaries in my life, you know, I told you that it's sometimes, I will receive a message from somebody that I want deeply to help, but I don't have the answers.
and being willing to say, I don't know. And that doesn't mean that I don't care. for you to get help. And here are my best recommendations for getting help. And here's what's worked for me. and I can't provide you any more guidance than that because I just don't know it. I've also found when it comes to boundaries, what I think is important is not always.
being the boss. If that makes sense. so we started parenting my son as a teenager, because of the cancer and the factory did not open for business. So we adopted a teenager who is now, a successful and talented young man and he's doing great. but what I learned is. It doesn't all have to fall on me.
And then in fact, as a teenager, he listened a lot better when it didn't come from me. So like learning this is mine to do as his mom in that relationship, like this is mine to do, but then all of these other things. I guide him. and then it's not that I'm not ultimately responsible, but he is ultimately responsible and realizing that that was actually more successful to be like, Well, here's where I think you can get that information.
Because if I told him, Oh, well, you should do this. He would not do that. He would do the opposite. But if I tell him, where to go and get the information or who I think he should talk to, if it came from not mom, all of a sudden, it was brilliant.
Danielle Cobo: You know, and I see that in the sense of goes back to the old saying of if you teach somebody to fish, they'll be able to feed themselves for a life.
But if you just give them the fish, you're feeding them for a day. And I know that goes the reverse way and how you say it, in the flow, but whether it's as a parent or whether it's a manager, it's not always us providing the answers. It's helping and guiding them to look at the resources and find the resources.
To help them find the answers and then possibly that might look like they come back, they do the research or they ask around and then they come back and they say, Okay, well, this is what I found. I'm thinking about doing it this way, but what are your thoughts on it? And it becomes a discussion. But if we're constantly feeding people the answers, then we're not teaching them to take the initiative and to develop themselves.
Courtney Clark: Yeah, I love to help people, love to, I, just don't even, nothing feels much better in the world than feeling like I helped someone. But I have to listen to that little voice in my head that says, that is not mine to
Danielle Cobo: do. I think that's an area that when I was a manager, I struggled with, what I've learned, because I saw the potential in people and I'd want to help them, but what I've learned is I can't want it.
More than you do and the times that I have wanted it possibly more than the other person. I would almost get Frustrated that they weren't taking the steps that they needed to get to the goal that they want to achieve and that would be frustrating And I want to circle back to something about boundary setting, because you had said there's, sometimes that boundary looks like, being able to, just saying, I don't have the answers for you.
I'd want to help you, but I may not have the answers. I also believe in boundary setting where if you feel like you're not in a mental place capacity to help someone, even though you may have the answers, even though you may be the best person to talk to. But as you said, you can't fill somebody else when you have an empty cup.
So sometimes that boundary looks like I absolutely want to help you, but right now my plate is full or right now I just don't have the mental capacity or I'm just exhausted. And I want to be able to provide you with the resources that you need or the guidance that you need. But right now is just not the right time where I can fully support you.
And sometimes that's what boundaries
Courtney Clark: are. For sure, for sure. I hate, I don't want to let people down. and I, worry a lot about letting people down. I have a friend who taught me, every yes is a no to something else. So every time in your life you say yes, you take something new on.
You may not even know what it is yet, but you're saying no to something else. And that no may be like catching up on the book that you want to read, but every yes is a no to something else. and so that often bounces around in my head too, that's like, Another reason, boundaries are good. We have to be
Danielle Cobo: proud of our boundaries.
You think about when people reach out or maybe you're at work and you've been asked to take on another project, maybe it's helping a friend with something, maybe you've been invited to, I've got six year old twins because, and now I'm getting just inundated with these birthday parties that friends are sending them.
I would like to say yes. But that also means that I'm not getting my own individualized time with my boys, with my husband who works two jobs. And so sometimes that, as you said, that boundary is, yes, I would be saying yes to these fun birthday parties, but I'm saying yes to quality time with my kids that you don't always get because they're in school all day.
Courtney Clark: Yeah. And to bring this back to resilience, right? That like it's not that resilience is necessarily finite, but we do have to build it for ourselves and things that can chip away at it. It's not even about being busy, right? So burnout, when I was looking at research about burnout, burnout does not come from being busy.
We can be super busy and not be burned out if we feel like we have reason to be there. It's that motivation, understanding, this is serving something of value, a goal. Then we can be super busy and even exhausted, but not burned out. Burnout comes from busy plus a lack of framing. a lack of a greater context, a greater goal or mission.
So, when you say yes to this birthday party and this committee that you actually didn't care about and then down the line, you have to say no to the things that truly drive you. There's your recipe for burnout. So it really does, to me, drive back to resilience because I have to keep my resilience protected.
it's a renewable resource. But it's,
Danielle Cobo: important. Yeah, absolutely. I think about a lot of times the research that's taking place right now is a burnout is a cause of having lack of fulfillment and purpose, but you can be really busy. But if you feel like it's fulfilling, you have a purpose.
I think about, there has been times where I have worked longer hours in my business than I did when I was leading a team for a Fortune 500 company, but I don't feel burnt out because It's my business and it's fulfilling and I feel like I'm serving a greater purpose. And so even there may be more, as you said, to do's and in keeping the busy, it doesn't feel that burnout.
Agreed.
Courtney Clark: And so as leaders then how this then translates to leaders is that when you have a difficult challenging time in your group, how much context can you give your team? So when I talk about change, for example, I lead teams through change, and one of the things we talk about is that the number one proven thing that people can connect to during change, and change is disconnecting, but the number one thing that people can connect to is the purpose of it.
The change and sometimes as leadership, we talk about like why change needs to happen. We talked about it 16 months ago in a closed door meeting when we decided the change needed to happen. And then by the time the change is rolling out, well, we're not talking about why anymore. We're talking about like, who's going to do what, when to do list action plan, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.
We're not communicating the purpose. Or, and then as leaders, really what we need to be doing is drilling even deeper than, Oh, the purpose of change is to, keep pace with our competitor. The purpose of change is to stay on the cutting edge of technology. But what's in it for that person?
What do they value? Do they value efficiency and going home on time? Because maybe this new technology system, it's going to be a pain to ramp it up. But. In another month, we're going to be so much more efficient. So, you know, what do they value? How can you as a leader, as a manager, draw a straight line to the payoff of change for that person?
When we can put moments like that into context for people, it's not just for you and I as entrepreneurs. Now it's like, Oh, I could work super long hours without burning out because like I have a purpose. We can find that purpose for any individual contributor, just tying it to what they value, and then all of a sudden difficult things like change aren't going to feel quite like so much of a threat.
Danielle Cobo: Anytime an organization is going through change, a lot of times they will go through, okay, this is what we're going to implement, this is what we're going to execute, and people don't always care. How it's going to affect the organization. They want to know how it's going to affect them. That's what they care about because there's a lot of uncertainty in change.
lot of times when I was working for an organization, we went through layoffs. We lost 20 percent of our Salesforce within one day. The people that remained and stayed, there was uncertainty in saying, well, am I going to have a job six months and a year from now? They want to know how was the restructuring and the layoffs going to affect them?
Of course. Not necessarily the bottom line of the organization. Right,
Courtney Clark: right. And it may be, well, it's going to affect the bottom line of the organization. Which means it's going to affect you like this, but yeah, laying people off. Does that mean I'm going to have to take on more work? Does that mean, things aren't going great financially with the company?
Like, put it into context, and there are always things that, there's always information that can't dribble its way all the way down the chain of command, but gosh, as much as possible, help people understand what's in it for them. Not just the business made this decision because it's the best for the business, but like, Hey, with this, this thing that you care about, this is going to be enriched, enhanced.
it's going to open up opportunities for growth for you because blah, blah, like whatever it is that, you know, that person cares about, you can really help get them on board.
Danielle Cobo: Absolutely. People want to know what's in it for them, the why, and when, people understand the why behind the decisions that are made, they're able to be part of the problem solving solutions and there'll be able to be part of the process of taking the organization.
To the future and where it's going in the direction that it's going to be in the future. So most people
Courtney Clark: want to be a part of
Danielle Cobo: that. Absolutely. They definitely want to, in fact, Crystal, for those of us that are listening, Crystal Washington was on the podcast and she talked about leading teams through change.
And she talked about how could you future proof your organization in a fast paced world where technology is changing at such a rapid pace. That she really talks about the steps on how to future proof the organization so that you're preparingyour team for success during change.
Courtney Clark: It's huge. I don't think change is going to start happening any slower.
Danielle Cobo: No, not at all. Let's be ready. Well, thank you so much for joining the podcast and sharing your story of resilience. I believe that our listeners are going to walk away from today's episode inspired and motivated and knowing that. When you focus not only on those emotional support problem solving, you can get through some of the most difficult times in your life and come out stronger.
Courtney Clark: I appreciate the conversation, Danielle. Thank you. Thank
Danielle Cobo: you. Well, for those of you listening, if you found that this episode resonated with you, please share it with somebody. I'm sure you've got somebody in your life that may be experiencing a challenging time in their life and could use. Just some motivation, inspiration, and some practical tools and strategies that they can employ in their life to help them get through these challenges.
So please share, write a review, and until next time, be unstoppable.