It's the latest turn in a battle by Montgomery County Prosecutor John McCarthy to get Hoggle declared competent to stand trial, despite doctor's opinions that she's not. Hogel has been in a secure state psychiatric hospital since the children's disappearance in twenty fourteen. Their bodies have never been found, and.
April doctors report at Hogle's competency is unrestorable. The state's attorney's office has continuously challenged this conclusion.
It's November twenty twenty two, and Catherine Hoggle, charged with two counts of murder, has been considered incompetent for nearly five years.
The Montgomery County community has wondered what happened to three year old Sarah and two year old Jacob. Their mother, thirty six year old Katherine Hoggele, was the last person seen with them. She was charged with murder after refusing, police say to share any information about their whereabouts.
The media following the case has ebbed and flowed over the years since the kids disappeared, but this week they are back in full force. In three days, murder charges will be dropped against Catherine Hoggele if she is not found competent to stand twile this is according to state law.
Hey really down to the wire here, huh Yeah.
Three days of.
Hearings, Sarah and I are catching up with Troy Turner, his wife Stephanie, and their friend and lawyer, Matt Alleged.
It's just really overwhelming. I don't know.
I mean, I think she's going to be out.
I just think she's going to be out, and I.
Think that's the wrong thing.
I think that society looks at her as a child murderer, and so they're like, dude, we'll never let someone like her out.
But that's just not the way the world works.
My read is that it doesn't look good.
Over three days, Judge James Bonifront has been hearing testimony about whether or not Catherine could capably assist her attorney in her own defense. As part of the state's argument, prosecutors asked the judge to go back and watch tapes of Catherine during this and prior hearings to pay attention to her interactions with her attorney, David Felson, her attentiveness and body language.
During the cross examination.
She's sitting there yelling at the attorney, pulling him over, pointing at notes telling him things.
The last day she came in, she brought in a piece of paper to Felson, handed to him where she had highlighted things for him.
I mean that's where I keep going.
Well, there has to be at least some chance because they were literally doing in front of him what they're saying.
They can't do.
All right, Well, well you really await news and thank you for your time again tonight.
Thanks thanks Bie.
I'm Beth Carris and this is Unrestorable, an original podcast from anonymous content and iHeartRadio.
So doctor Brown, would you please raise your right hand and listen to the courtroom clerk.
Please THEMSLF swear or firma the bounties a perjurb that the response is giving us think it's maybe the whole truth or nothing but the truth.
He thank you.
This is the hearing Troy has been pushing for for more than eight years. He wants Catherine questioned by a judge, her competency examined by a court outside of what he sees as her protectors at Perkins. He's been trying to convince anyone who will listen that Catherine needs to be
held accountable. This competency hearing is his last chance. If she is yet again determined to be not competent to stand trial, the murder charges will be dismissed in advance of the December first deadline, and Troy's determination to have her charged with his children's murders will be defeated. Maybe for good.
Doctor Stationer, informing Adam Brown, thank you.
Doctor Adam Brown, a psychiatrist at Clipton T. Perkins Psychiatric Hospital, is the doctor who most recently evaluated Catherine and concluded she was incompetent.
When you conducted your evaluation of miss Hovell. What diagnosis did.
You confirm, doctor Brown, is being questioned by David Felson, Catherine's attorney.
I confirm the diagnosis of schizophrenia any other diagnosis. She also has diagnoses of a major depressive disorder and generalized anxiety disorder.
And are the psychotic related manifestations concerning that diagnosis, Yes, there are.
Can you explain to the court what is psychosis?
So in a general sin psychosis is the main product of schizophrenia's kind of the syndroom that schizophrenia produces, so generally that in a nutshell is disconnection from reality and one or more ways you know, they're commonly understood disconnects are auditory hallucinations or visual hallucination.
Someone with psychosis, as you've described, says it manifests itself with miss Hoggle. Can they answer questions like who's the judge? What the charges are against you? In other words, what we've been calling sort of the prong one question.
Yes, they can, As in my report, in some of the examples of miss Hoggle answering those questions, she might initially answer the question correctly, albeit maybe superficially. It is just kind of a generalization for most of her responses during my assessment, But then she would derail, as a term used for it. She would move on to another topic that was either loosely related or.
Not related at all to the prior question.
So, even when she answered the question appropriately, if allowed to continue to remove very far our way from the response.
That was needed.
This question of derailing is key to the insistence that Catherine is not competent to assist counsel. That while she might, upon superficial examination appear capable and aware, that appearance masks a highly disoriented core that prevents her from grappling with anything beyond the most basic question. From what doctor Brown describes, she just isn't capable of providing the kind of complex information required to defend herself against murder charges, information like
alibi witnesses and exculpatory evidence. But for the prosecution, the question isn't one of Catherine's capacities. It's what she's willing and unwilling to do. And this is the tag Assistant State's Attorney Ryan Wexler takes as she cross examines doctor Brown.
It's certainly possible that Miss Hoggle is making a choice to derail because she doesn't want to answer questions about her case.
That's possible, isn't it.
It's possible, but I don't think that's what's going on.
You heard mister Turner testify last week, right, and that he testified that Miss Hoggle told him that she was advised to stay incompetent.
I call that.
Yes, Troy Turner isn't the only person who has noted that Catherine has expressed interest in remaining incompetent. Another psychiatrist at Perkins, doctor Christian Tullibson, also examined Catherine.
And were you also aware that in doctor Tollisson's report when doctor Tollison talked to Miss Hoggle. Miss Hoggel told her she did not want to become competent. Were you aware of that?
No, I've not read doctor Tullison's report.
That if miss Hoggle stays incompetent, her case will be dismissed by the court.
Right sure, Doctor Brown was a witness for Catherine's side. Doctor Tullison was called by the state.
You know, competency is in the moment, it's in the here and now, But it's also a question of their capacity to be competent. So we're looking at somebody's underlying abilities to sort of rise to the occasion.
You know, can they.
You know, can they pull themselves together if they have to? So I'm looking I'm looking at the how you know, like, what what have they been doing in the past. How does that affect their ability to, you know, be able to pull themselves together at certain times for their court proceedings.
Is there a difference between capacity and willingness to become confident?
In your opinions, plenty of defendants are fully capable of being competent, But will you know, exhibit all sorts of symptoms in order to.
Not be competent?
Doctor Tellibson was also questioned about whether doctor Brown's assessment was sufficient. He spent ninety minutes with Catherine, and that was seven months prior to this hearing.
In the course of a normal evaluation for competency, would you feel comfortable announcing an opinion relative to competency if you had not seen the patient for seven months.
I could talk about what I thought the defendant.
Was like seven months ago.
But you know, sometimes it depends on the defendant.
Because I've certainly had patients or defendants at Clifton T. Perkins who were exactly the same from year to year to year, and so you know, seven months.
Is not going to make that much of a difference.
But when you have a defendant or a patient who is doing.
Education trials, or situations changing, or things are revolving in their case, then you would want to revisit them right before their court appearments.
If there was evidence in the records that you were examining that suggested that the defendant that you were evaluating refused to answer questions that were asked of them because they were following the advice of their counsel not to answer the question. Would you consider that in terms of competency.
I think that would be evidence of their ability to work with their.
Attorney up to this point. After new where is hearings, dozens of reports, years in a psychiatric hospital. What we know about Catherine we know through others. This hearing would bring something different to the table.
What are your name?
Happened Ashley Hackel?
This hearing would have a judge ask Catherine questions directly.
Thank you? How old are you? Thirty six? What's your birthday? Eleven thirteen eighty six? Do you know what evidence is?
Yes, sir, mat don't want you tell me anything about circumstances in this case, but generally, what is evidence?
Something that makes things, something that's used for a case, good or bad.
When someone is charged with crime, should they talk to an attorney?
I'm not sure.
When prosecutors pushed the judge to question Catherine, they submitted more than a hundred questions they suggested he use to assess her competency.
Do you know what attorneys do?
Yes, sir?
Tell me what attorneys.
Do they prosecute or defend station? I mean a client?
What should an attorney know.
What happened at the alleged crime?
Catherine isn't under oath, and this isn't a criminal trial, but the consequences our major. If the court upholds the repeated conclusions of incompetency by the doctors at Perkins, then the charges will be dismissed.
Is there anything else that they should know?
I can't think of anything right now. I'm not very good at public speaking.
Have you ever heard of the phrase attorney client privilege? Yes, sir, what do you think that means?
It's private conversation with you and your attorney?
Okay, thank you very much, man, thank you.
And then it was over. The interaction you just heard isn't a small clip of the exchange between Catherine and the judge. It's the sum of his questions for her, eleven questions in total. Even More, each of his questions appeared related to the first prong of competency, that she understands the sys and charges and proceedings, something her lawyer has already conceded. It was impossible to guess what Judge
Bonifront would do with this information. What he saw when he looked at Catherine Hoggle slightly slumped in her seat, what he heard when she answered his questions capably, Though, not without some hesitance and with a certain childlike simplicity. Were these the answers of a woman who couldn't see through a fog of mental illness? Were they the words of a woman who has been scheming, manipulating, lingering, and ultimately prevailing over any number of medical professionals for the
last eight years. Everyone in the courtroom listened intently, but maybe most of all was Troy. He was sitting just feet away, closely watching every move, clocking every statement. Catherine made a slow reel of eight years of surreal history flashing through his mind. But all Troy could do was wait for the afternoon of November thirtieth, twenty twenty two, when Judge Bonavent delivered his decision.
All right, thank you, everyone, Please have a scene. All right, everyone.
The first issue before the court is whether the defendant, Catherine Hoggele, is presently common.
To stand trial.
If the judge decides that Catherine is competent, contradicting the repeated findings of several doctors at Perkins, then she will be arraigned on murder charges in the deaths of Jacob and Sarah, setting up a rare no body double homicide prosecution.
Pursuant to an indictment handed down September fourteen, twenty seventeen. Defendant faces two counts of murder. The defendant is charged with first two murder of her two children, Sarah and Jacob. The court does not find the state has met its burdened beyond a reasonable doubt in light of the fact that has now been five years since the first finding of dependence and competency. Count one and two of the indictment are dismissed.
And with that the murder charges against Catherine Hoggele are gone.
The court finds the defendant meets their criteria for involuntary confinement. Prestuan to Section three one O sixty one.
Catherine will not be released. She will be remanded to Perkins until she's deemed no longer a threat to herself or others, but she will be outside of the purview of the criminal justice system. Now she's just another patient.
She has been diagnosed with schizophrenia, major depressive disorder, and general anxiety disorder. She suffers from chronics symptoms of impaired judgment, poor insight, paranoia, and disorganized thinking. Without the structure and stability of a hospital setting, she would be a danger to herself for others. Given the limited insight into illness and her desire to discontinue her medications, she is unwilling
and unable to sign a voluntary treatment agreement. There is no less restrictive environment that is consistent with her welfare and safety.
After the judge is finished delivering his decision, he invites Troy to speak to the court.
Mister turneres, sir, thank you.
After taking a moment to collect himself, Troy stands. He's wearing a t shirt with Sarah and Jacob's pictures on it. Sarah and Jacob are smiling sweetly at the camera, maybe at their dad.
This is a travesty, and my kids are gone.
She's gone, going with her lafe. My kids don't have one.
They were two and three when they were taken, and everything that they were ever going to be or accomplished.
Is taken from them by her.
And now I have to sit here and listen to charges to get dropped, and her rights are being talented.
Where are my kids rights? Where are the children advice to be safe? Where's anyone's rights? And this whole.
System other than a criminal like her and I'm telling you right now, I'm not disregarding that she is mentally ill. I know that I personally have had her committed. But what I can tell you is there was a lot of lies told in this court, none of them by me, but.
That has all now prevailed. I do appreciate you. I don't mean any disrespect to you or your sport.
But the system's broken and it's got to change.
Thank you.
A little while later, the state's attorney held a press conference in front of the courthouse.
Thank you.
My name is John McCarthy. I'm a states attorney from Montgomery County. The charges were dismissed against her today by Judge Bonifitt in court about five minutes ago, but there still remains several important points for the community to know about this matter. Missago will not be free in the community, as we just witnessed a few minutes ago. She will be involuntarily committed by an order assigned by this judge because she remains a danger to herself for others. She is committed by court.
Order today today we have the right to recharge. There is no double jeopardy that applies here.
This is not a double jeopardy situation, the state has the right to recharge. I will tell you, as long as I'm state's attorney, it would be my intent, if she is a judge, to be safe to we turned to the community, the circumstances would be such that we would recharge her, even if we have to revisit the issue of competency again. My personal hope is that we will not have justice ultimately denied but merely delayed.
The next day, Sarah and I jumped on a plane and headed to Maryland. Next time Unrestorable, we dive into the biggest remaining question what happened to Sarah and Jacob, as far.
As where their bodies are as a mystery, as far as what.
Happened, who took them, who did it?
There's no mystery there.
When we first got as she had dirt under her fingernails, like it.
Looks like she was in the bloods.
So there's still a part of me that thinks, hey, they're still out there and maybe we.
Just passed on.
Unrestorable is executive produced and hosted by me Beth Carris and Sarah Trelevin. Our story editor is Kathleen Goldhar. Mixing and sound designed by Mitchell Stewart for Anonymous content. Jessica Grimshaw is our executive producer, Jennifer Sears is our executive in charge of production, and Nick Yaniez is our legal council. For iHeart executive producer Christina Everett and supervising producer Abu Zapfhar