What happens when two sidekicks try to carry the show? Find out next on Unwrap. Letting something like that. And this is Gene, the fear. Welcome to Unrelenting. And then, unfortunately, I think he died or something. I'm not sure exactly what happened, but that's all right. We've got another co-host tomorrow. I'm sorry. You are from America's left coast. This is Ryan Perry. Oh, you said that. Yeah, well, I kind of feel like we've been doing show for a long time. I don't know. It seems that way.
Well, we kind of do the same show through an intermediary. We do. We do? Yeah. And although some people seem to think that he carries all the weight, I would disagree. I think, frankly, it's the people that are his co-hosts that carry the weight. And he just happens to be on all these shows.
He's not even that interested, as evidenced by the fact that the show that he gets that makes, you know, five times as much donations as all those other ones combined is the one he's doing right now at this very moment, the rocket, because he has time to do that show, just not either of our show. That's what it comes down to. So when when I said, hey, I've you know, I'm going to go record a show with Gene, he went ahead and and spilled the beans on on the stream on his aunt.
Our show which is doing right now. I did he says Yeah, he said, So Ryan Bumrah's and Gina are going to be recording right now and and I think that the thing they're going to talk about and I'm by the way, I'm making this true now. I bet the thing they're going to talk about is why my show with Larry gets more than my show with Darren. In my show with Gene, I'm like, Oh, one of the reasons is you do a show with Larry. Yeah, like he does for us. That's exactly right.
This week was the lamest excuse ever. He's like, Oh, my studio's flooded. Oh, podcast underwater. Yeah, exactly. Well, he gave me a similar excuse. He said, Yeah, my my studio is flooded and I spend all this time like vacuuming water and carrying buckets. Now my back just joins me and I. I can't stand straight up. I have to be vertical on Friday. Yeah, yeah. He did his show on Thursday and I know that this guy I know. No that's it's it's like some people have selective memory.
He has like selective reasons not to do about death. That's what it comes down to. But that's fine. That's fine. We're way more interesting in a way. We are our voice, but we're more interesting. Well, Larry has a suboptimal voice, so I'm not sure who's listening to that show is. All I hear is, Oh, I have custom settings I use for planet. Oh, you do? See, I never. I never did. It comes to me. So you just boost all the. Yeah, you do. You have to transpose the pitch.
Everything slow human hearing I just boost way up and then okay And you you run it like with an old school 2.0 X thing that write with that doesn't do a pitch shift. So you have to let it ramp. That makes more sense now. So I guess you could actually hear what their understand what they're saying them. And then you get Larry who, you know, normally talks really slow and instead he starts talking, sounding like you and I. And it's right. Which is like normal speed.
People think we're sorry, the podcast speeds, but now this is how we actually talk this. Well you you actually tell people to accelerate the podcast speed. I do I do hate them. I just I just feel like the amount of information that they're listening to on my podcast, you know, it's it'd be better if it was into less time. Oh, you know, I got a I have one of the reasons why and we we were discussing this before the show.
I've become not quite as good at going out and finding new shows for the gender stream and the reason there's other things going on and my podcast listening time has gone down to the point where there are a few like in the community, and I don't want to name names because I really like these people, but there's a few people who do two plus three plus hour shows, right? I like their shows a lot, but I just cannot put that much time in.
But yeah, I mean, not that I want to give our our co-host Darren any more press, but one of the shows I do catch all the time because it's short is random, but it is short and I'm like in an hour I can fit in. But when you like when you do three plus hours, I'm like, I can't I cannot do this. Know on two X, that show literally takes 7 minutes. It's perfect. And the whole the whole thing is, you know, there's just there's no question about it. No question about it.
No question, No question about it. Darren has a particular way of saying yeah, is the interesting part. If I do a show with him that's at least 2 hours long, you do on that. I think it's comparable. We pretty much end that 2 hours every time we hear like every every does. We have fans. We always have a couple of extra stories that we get to because we're like, It's been 2 hours, we're done, Screw you guys, we're going to shut off. And we're totally cool with that.
But yet by himself, he can't come up more than 20 minutes worth of conversation, too. Well, I don't know about your show, but on Grumpy Old Ben's, I don't let him talk for more than 20 minutes out of the 2 hours. Anyway. That's probably that's probably about right.
I do tend to dominate the show, but I figure, you know, he's got a lot more podcasts and I don't think he talks more than 20 minutes on anything he does, because certainly on the music thing, that's the most popular and the one that generates him an actual income where he plays pirated music and makes money off of no, he borrows all of his all of his moneymaking content is from bootlegs. Well, exactly. So that's literally he's playing stolen material to make money from.
I mean, I don't I'm shocked he isn't in prison at this point. I wasn't going to say stolen, especially since on the last grumpy old Benz, which, by the way, was in June. I, I did in fact point out that, you know, there are a lot of places where content is being made unavailable. And I am of the opinion that when a content owner decides to make something unavailable at any price anywhere, then it becomes a moral imperative to pirate it. I would never do such a thing myself.
I think is that's a pretty extreme position to place your stuff into. Have you ever listen to my show? Extreme positions are kind of my thing. I mean, yeah, but it's like that that can have negative consequences, you know, Like, for example, when I banned CSB so that he couldn't read my tweets, there's a reason that I banned and didn't just mute BLOCK is like, is the word. Yeah, yeah. Because I'm so vindictive there.
So there are people there that that just become not worthy of hearing me and I'm the one taking extreme positions. Well, you're you're totally extremist. No, I'm, I'm like a middle of the road guy. Yeah. You're all a public website. And so everybody in the world can read it except fuck you. Yeah, I've been the one champing in. I'm the one champing in there to be a banned tag in podcasting 2.0 where you can explicitly provide IP zones that you would like to exclude from distribution.
That should be an official standard. Yeah, well, I'm I'm more of the opinion that the public domain should not be partitioned out into individual fiefdoms. Turns out that Silicon Valley doesn't agree with me, which is why public is a walled garden now. Yeah, I think everything is a walled garden.
I think that's been moving in that direction for a long time as my my my latest extreme frustration has been with open source projects that decide to put all of their communication, including things like Changelog and documentation on Discord. Oh yeah, yeah. That which is not an open garden. No, it's it's pretty much as closed and cut off as you possibly like. Okay, so here's what Discord was made for.
It still does a pretty good job is you have a little tiny gaming group, your guild, whatever it is. Yeah. In fact, they're their servers, which are horribly named because they just abuse the word server and make every it guy's teeth itch When you talk about Discord server, which is nothing more than a row in a database that collects a bunch of channels or whatever.
Their servers were originally called gilt and when they realized that they were going to be getting people who weren't gamers, they decided to change out the term. It's a terrible term to use, but the the you know, I kind of prefer clan over guild clan works to the use case works really well is a small group of people very you know tight community who wants to have a chat together like you know even what you and I are doing.
Yeah, I have recorded podcasts on Discord because the audio quality really isn't bad and it's not bad. I'll tell you what is acceptable now. Latency is low, which is my most important. Yeah, and I'm on discord like every day for 8 hours a day. So I'm sorry. It's funny. The. For what? You're not gaming that much, are you? Oh, you actually you might. I actually am. You are. Okay. Ah, no, I'm game a lot, but it's some of us have to work for a living, so I even try this podcast for a living.
Yeah. That is not working. That's a that's a the opposite of working, actually. Unless. Unless you're like playing stolen music and then getting paid for it. And then in which case I guess it's work. But no, I totally share your opinion on Discord. I don't like that they're taking political stances and they have a in the past they've actually banned people for stand up for literally all the politics. They're like, oh, that's that's yes. Yet another issue.
I mean, the first ones that I come across are the fact that it's a walled garden, the fact that if you sow discord is a first of all. Absolutely. They're, you know, a walled garden to an extreme to the point where they are, they will kick you out and ban your account if they catch you modifying the client. No, they're like the app that we provide and nothing else. Well, that app is crap. It is utter shit for accessibility. It's terrible for people with vision problems.
It's terrible for the colorblind it. Oh, who cares about the color blind? I have an opinion, but that's for me. So they're. Yeah, they're a I also dislike their app because it crashes games, which is not something you want an app to do that's made for gamers. It I don't even like the fact that it scans my processed list.
I you know if if Windows eight had an easy way to sandbox an app and just run it in its own virtual machine without compromising all of my performance, I would be running discord in that and saying, Yeah, go ahead and scan this empty VM with nothing in it. So you know what I do? I run my discord on my Mac. Yeah, I was going to say it and then I run the game on the PC. Yeah. Because the people I'm talking to don't care. No, no, they shouldn't.
It's no like I want it for voice chat and the occasional text like piracy and that's what it's good at. But what it's not good at is it's absolutely terrible for documentation because every, the only textual place you can put anything in is an infinite scroll, ephemeral RC room. Yeah. Which is, you know, and well, what's the other communication medium. Oh, video and audio. No, that's ephemeral. So there's nothing persistent. There's no way to make anything that can be around there.
Search function is just bog standard Elasticsearch that doesn't even, you know, like you can't customize domains, you can't use. Multi term search is worth a crap. No it's a it's terrible for finding and just this morning and the reason why this rant even came up is I was looking it at an open source library that I was needing to use for one of my projects and they had put out a new version.
But the site where they put well, they put out versions on GitHub, there was absolutely nothing on GitHub that like they hadn't updated and checked in the source on GitHub. They just pushed the new library home and I'm like, What did you change? What is different? And the only thing I found was in there, read me. It said, Go see our Discord for Changelog. Oh, that's locked. And you know, their client only has a maximum of 100 guilds that you can never join clans or whatever.
So I'm sitting here thinking, okay, so if I want to know what the hell you changed, tell me which of the other 800 open source project or, you know, 99 open source projects that I've had to join to read their change logs? Which ones should I dump in order to read your frigging changelog? No, it's. It's bullshit, but I've run across the same thing where there are companies that literally will distribute. They're like they don't even they, they may use GitHub, but nothing's documented.
And then the links to what you're actually looking for all through Discord. Yeah, it's like this is stupid. You add nothing to the experience. You can put all of that into GitHub so that it's human readable and you know, you can still use discord if you really want to, but don't make me go to your discord just to be able to pull the data out. And you touched on one of the root problems that that will
will inevitably come up with with this company, with using this service. Is that well, it's ultimately a problem with anything centralized in Silicon Valley, which is, of course, why they're all nefarious, is you're walled in to one company, to one client. Yeah, they have full 100% control over everything that happens in every chat room, every client.
You know, there's no there's no control, as far as we know amongst their staff, any any member, any staff member, The janitor can walk into the discord building and read everybody's private DMS because. Absolutely. Yeah. Or or there's no expectation of privacy whatsoever on their And while I'm a slightly bigger fan of Slack over Discord for corporate stuff, Slack has plenty of their own problems. It's ultimately the problem is centralization. Centralization brings with it all kinds of problems.
And the one that we've seen in the last three years and I can't believe people are not starting to figure out this stuff out because it happens over and over. Is canceling is I you know, if I, I personally have had a discord account since before they were asking for phone numbers, which is why this doesn't have my phone number.
But for all of the time that I've ever spent there, for every message I've ever posted, every thing I've ever looked at, everything I've ever read, all I have to do is say the wrong thing. Once in a private chat with somebody who's totally cool with it and an admin might stumble by and read my private message and say, Oh, this guy's right wing, let's ban his account and everything I've ever done. Gone. Yep, that's true of any centralized service I've had.
They can happen on Twitter, can happen on Facebook. There's no there's no judicial process. There's certainly no due process. There's no it's it's really just anybody. But I mean, to be fair, to be fair, that's not like this is any different than what I was doing in the eighties, running my own bulletin board. If I didn't like somebody, they get kicked and then they don't get to a bulletin board with the same on the same open source PBB software or whatever you were using. Yeah, yeah.
Software might be the same, but the contents of the downloads was, believe me, very different. And I could convince my if the admin was a total douche, I could convince my whole community, Hey, let's go to this other place that has exactly the same features. Yeah. Yeah. It's the the key being that there was not a central like the place. In fact, the reason we were on bulletin boards was because we didn't like CompuServe. Yeah, we didn't like Genie.
The difference is that you were not the only admin of every bulletin board ever. Exactly. Yeah. So you, you couldn't just, with one database post, say, I'm sorry, you're never allowed on a bulletin board again. Would that be cool, though, man? I mean, you would if you had that power, you'd use it on CSB. Well, I would have, yeah, absolutely. It's like you're blocked off of everything for a year, you know? But after a year, I restore everything back. I'm like, what I can say about what?
I'm still perma banned on I.R.S., which is, you know, now been like a decade, I think at least it's been since longer than I.R.S. has been available here. You tell it. Oh, no, no, it's. I don't think I In the 1970s, you've been banned from this chat room since I'm not banned from I.R.S. the protocol. I'm banned from that particular chat room. Only been using I since making my point for me. Yeah, I may be making your point for you, but it's.
I'm just saying that I'm a much more gracious person given where I restored CSB than, you know, the fact that certain people banned me. Darren off of I.R.S. were many years ago. And my understanding is he doesn't even remember what the command is to unbanned. So there. There you go. I'm just perma ban. He might not know this and hopefully he'll never listen to this show so he won't know he wouldn't. I don't think he has permission anymore. Like oh good.
I take away his, his up line every once in a while because Yeah. You know, because he uses it and we can't have that. So yeah, yeah it's, it's weird you know I was one of the original admins I at IAC before any of you all were listening to No agenda. So back in the day, I don't believe that's true. That's totally true. Because. Because zero net high are zero. Literally. Yeah. It did not stop me before I was listening to no agenda.
Well, you may have been listening to the agenda, but I wasn't in control room. You went. Yeah, well, you weren't in Justin Jordan, but no, you know, I was, I was involved with Lloyd Zero back when he was still working for the company that was providing the hosting for No Agenda. And the while, because I was also doing a podcast with those guys and so back then before, well, I, you know, I guess he technically he would have already
had it up and running because I couldn't have been an admin before it existed. But, but he gave me admin rights on there like way, way back. But this what timeline my eyes I want to say would have been 2000, ten, maybe nine. Right around there I saw about 13 years ago. Yeah. I was listening to the show back then, but I didn't join the community until about 15. Yeah, and I, you know, you know, that whole story, right? That whole back story. So it was basically. Alex and Gitmo slave and void zero.
Well yeah Alex's Mr. earlier. Okay they were they heard void zero side of the story yeah yeah so basically they had well Mr. Oil put up the money to set up servers to to host no agenda and he got the you know void zero was always like the, the real the actual techie guy.
Uh, this Mr. Oil it was mostly a listener fam and had an income and then get real slave I think was somewhat tacky I think you I mean he worked in in fact but he wasn't doing the work it always though I remember kind of joking Oh to avoid that, you know, he's like the guy in those cartoons where you have the one guy digging the ditch and then four people standing around telling him what to do. I was going to envision him in that in that role. And then but in this mean, which person were you?
Oh, I was definitely one of the guys sitting around just telling him what to do. But I wasn't really because. Are you the one taking the picture? It didn't. Yeah, exactly. There you go. That's a better way to phrase it. I was the one taking the picture because I didn't have a horse in the race. I was certainly no John the fan, but I'd already known that by this point. And I was I was doing a show with Alex, with Mr. Oil, the The Post. It was essentially the post knowledge on the show.
This was the after show. So it was on immediately on the after, no agenda wrapped up and live stream and, you know, initially no agenda was hosted by Adam's old company. Yes. And eventually when I'm pretty sure that was about when I came on October. Yeah, I was listening to the even then the RSS feed. So when I started listening to the show, the RSS feed was already maxed out at whatever software they were generating could only list 100 episodes, and the current episode was 133.
Okay, so I went back and listen to episode 33. That was the first one I ever listened to. Yeah, yeah. And then went to catch up. Yep. And, and then I was just about caught up and the feed switched out. Uh huh. But then you get a sense of the first year, right? The first 33 episodes, I've never I've never read. Listen to the first 30. Really. I know if they archive, I can download them.
This is a terrible admission to make, but I know that I am, judging by the number of people who are like listener since show one, I am in fact the only no agenda producer who has not been listening since show one others funny everybody else that every single person who comes on says, Oh, I've been listening, I've been listening since show one, listening since show you know, show one was there were a lot of people that say they started when Joe Rogan, as far as I can tell, show one, was by far
the most listened to episode of the entire series. Everybody listening to show one. I get the funny point you're making, but I think most people these days would say that they started listening when he was on Rogan. I did start listening to episode one because for a long time prior to that, I was a listener of Adam and the Daily Source code. Yeah. And then he said, He's going to do this thing with John. I'm like, Oh, I've been a fan of John's writing for many years. This should be good.
And it was mostly like, you know, wine reviews and restaurant reviews. Okay, well, the early episodes had a lot of that. I it was like restaurants I'll never go to. But yeah, the fancy restaurants usually. But again, this is back in the time where, you know, Adam was, you know, put in quotes, but he was basically running a company. I don't think he really liked the business side of running company. He just liked the travel.
If you go with it and the, you know, the good aspects of running a company, not all the tough decision making that's involved, not the day to day work. Nobody wants that. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, he's definitely been more interested in tinkering, which I think is also where his talent lies, you know, which is what he's doing with podcasting. 2.0. I had never heard of Adam Curry before. No agenda. Mm hmm. Yeah. I grew up in a rural part of Washington state where we never had we never had cable.
Cable TV was was a fancy thing that only people in the city got when I was in. And now what we had was the big ass 14 foot boom antenna on the roof, which every time there was a windstorm, the wind would start pointing at the wrong direction and I'd be like, Brian, get up on the roof and re point the antenna. And then he'd yell out, They're telling me when the picture was good. Mm. And so I never like MTV was not an experience that I ever had when I was a kid.
Obviously never heard of daily source code, but one of my coworkers had turned me on to podcasts and told me about this show called This Week in Tech. Yep. And he ever bought that that, you know, that was where I got into podcasting because Twitter in the day was actually pretty compelling and it had pretty much everyone worth listening to in the tech space. So I liked it. I yeah, I like, I like the early days.
This wasn't my first introduction to John C Dvorak on Twit, but it was the first thing I ever did that I liked because I hated writing it. Part of Oh really? It was was I was working on Windows and he was always just absolutely destroying windows in writing. I would say that's hilarious because what I remember him from was the eighties, where he had the back page of Mac User or Mac World, one of those two, and it was a contrarian article.
So every week or every month when that magazine came out, I would read his article first because I would. He's the kind of guy you'd love to hate because every article talked about something new that just came out for the Mac and how bad it is. It was always a very negative on the Mac Pro Microsoft anti Mac kind of article that happened to be on the back page, you know, the page before the cover essentially of a macintosh magazine.
So it was like the what made it good was while he seemed to be ragging on the topic that the magazine was about, he's a good writer and he was always able to put just enough in there to make you kind of begrudgingly agree to some extent, but still want to fight him about it. He is a good writer and I have to agree with that now. But let me tell you, when when I put my blood, sweat and tears into a product and then he just comes out and mercilessly rips on it. Did you work on Clippy?
Was Clippy your idea? Clippy was not. No, Clippy was before my time. Oh, really? How old are you? I thought you were older. Well, I'm not over 100 like you are. Well, clearly. I mean, jeez, Clippy was like that. Was there a middle age when Clippy came out? When did Clippy come out? Clearly came out in in 98. Is a Windows XP shipped before I was there. The first project I ever read, the first Windows product I worked on was XP, SP2. It was like, Oh, okay.
Yep. First back there and then, you know, the one I really remember was Windows Vista and Longhorn for a while. And, you know, that was pretty much start to end the total software clusterfuck. Yep. And we, you know, we tried working on Longhorn, we worked on Longhorn for five years until finally they said, okay, the code base is a mess.
And it was because I remember there were we would have like three or four weeks go by where we never got a build from the main branch that would boot just so they ended up the whole thing runs on DOS would expect. Well no Longhorn was actually it was really ambitious it was going to be a it was a whole new operating system. It was the first one with 64 bit, it was the first one that was completely they got rid of the dust go base, The dust code base died with windows. Me and good riddance.
Yeah. XP was built on Windows 2000 which was built on the antebellum. Yeah. So not strictly dos. It was a true 32 bit operating system that was independent of the like finally got rid of the 640 K memory barrier so the Windows 98 that was still running the story. Yeah. 9598 and Emmy were all the windows 3.0 dos based. Yeah. I remember all those launches. I mean 95 hid it really well in 98, actually got rid of it. So the only place you ever saw it was in the bootloader.
Yeah. But yeah, it was, Yeah. I was empty certified back in the day. So I got I was a microsoft engineer with anti sequel and I never got any of those certifications. Something about being an engineer at Microsoft made it seem unnecessary. Yeah, it's, it was, it was really cool though, because I was a mac guy the whole time. And my first I'm sorry, I was working for a company that was a tech company or a tax service consulting company, whatever you call it.
And I was one of the Mac guys and my boss was a big Microsoft guy and he kind of challenged me because I guess I had a lot of spare time. He says, Yeah, why don't you take the time instead of wasting it like you are and go study up and take the anti cert with me because he was going to take at the same time. And I said, okay, cool. Yeah, I'll do it. You know, as long as you pay for the test.
And so I ended up studying and we both went in to take the, the 90 351, I think it was certification and I passed and he failed. And you know, he works with this stuff every day. I, I didn't even have a PC. I just memorized the book and so hard. Well, it wasn't that easy, though, because they just introduced adaptive testing. That was the first one that the adaptive testing with. But oh my God, you can imagine the amount of shit that he got from everybody else for failing the test I passed that.
Did you imagine over and over again, Are you kidding me? I rubbed it in as much as I could rub it off. There's nothing more to rub. It's good to be vindictive, so. Oh, yeah. Especially to your boss. Yeah, it's. It's just me. But then I am afterward. Yes, I. Exactly. I have, like, my bath. But then after passing that, he's like, well, shit, you know, he did so damn easy for you once you take the other five tests and get your engineers cert. So I did that.
I took one a month for six months and then I got my Microsoft Engineer cert. I did buy a PC in the interim though, so I didn't like purely theoretically pass them. I one say I did that first and V one then I actually was curious enough to install my own MTF to that and start tinkering with that and really kind of for about a decade switched from Mac to PC as my main operating system. And it wasn't until 2000 then that's more than a decade. Actually it was about 2005. Then I switched back to Mac
on. Mac actually got pretty good right around then or a little while until it when when it was not the era of like jobs came back and they came up with. That's exactly it. Yeah that's exactly it. The OSX took a huge leap ahead and again, I was I was at a competition back then and we're sitting here watching these OSX versions. That's because it was based on next OS.
Yeah, and it was Unix going like when we're working on Longhorn, which we can't even boot because the check in process was such a cluster that we were, you know, the when they, when they, you know, that Longhorn is actually one of the Windows operating systems that they never ship. They just scrapped the whole code base really.
And what happened was after five years of working on Longhorn, which was supposed to be the next thing after a win or after XP, they scrapped the code base entirely, went back to Server 23, which was based on XP three and started from that code base and said, okay, we have 18 months from now what? Let's put some consumer features in and ship it because it doesn't matter if we get new features now or not. We have to ship a new OS. People are buying XP anymore. Yeah, but that was forever.
And so we just had to ship something. So they took server 23, they stapled a, you know, and every team in Windows got to choose what features they wanted. So of course half of them tried to shovel all their longhorn features back into it, but at least management was cutting. So we ended up shipping Windows Vista, which was really like Windows Vista start to finish was about 14 months total of development, and that's why it felt unfinished.
It didn't it was six years after XP, but we didn't do work on Vista the whole time. That was why Vista. So to go all the way back to my divorce story, my first real introduction to divorce ex articles like that, I really see his name stuck in my mind was when we had this death march of 14 months of, you know, 12 to 14 hour days over and over again. You know, the the company was ordering pizza every night for to bring in because we weren't going home until Ted.
We're like a genuine Silicon Valley style death march. We finally get the first beta out. And Dvorak comes out with this article that just tears it up one side, down the other, how it's terrible and how this is the end for Microsoft. And and Windows XP was the last operating you will ever use called Windows because this Vista thing is so terror. I'm like, Who the fuck is this guy? But you got to remember, this is also the guy that said the mouse is nifty, but it'll never catch on.
Yeah, and he really loved OS two. And then I saw him on Twit and I'm like, okay, I actually really like him. But it was just such a bad introduction to history. It wasn't He's because, because the article did he wrote the tore it. He was right. He was right. Yeah. Yeah. And that's it. This is what I'm talking about.
It's like he has a knack of writing things and critiquing them in a manner where he's clearly speaking out the wrong audience, meaning people that are on the opposite side of the argument. But he is putting in enough truth in there to still make them begrudgingly have to agree with at least a part of what he's saying. And I think that he's done that his whole life. He's been the curmudgeon. Oh, yeah, At this point, you know, I'm now 15, almost 20 years later. I really just want to emulate that.
Like, I want to be that. How's that going for you? It's not I know my podcast isn't a successful. It says, Oh, yeah, yeah, that's true. But you're not doing it with Adam here either. I'm not I. How successful do you think jams work? Yeah, that's offense, people. How successful do you think, John Works podcast would be sounds Adam I think if they both brought star power of their own to the show because I came to no agenda definitely because of John.
You may have come to no agenda because of John, but I think John has to have a partner, whether it's talking with Leo or talking with what's his name, that the money dude or it's talking to Adam like John Solo would be worse than Darren Solo. Well, I doing my podcast now with somebody who thinks he wants to be Adam Curry. Chris, out to Darren.
I'm sorry, I don't I don't watch your podcast so yeah, yes but you're very you're vaguely aware that I do a podcast two days before the one you do with Darren. With Derek. Oh dear. Yeah. Okay. I thought you were talking about something new. You were starting. Okay. No, something go. Got it. Got it. Yeah. So yeah, you were the, the replacement host for me doing Grumpy Old Ben's with Darren. Right? Right. I replaced you on Grumpy Old Ben. So that's how it works.
Yeah, well, apparently the original host died or something. I can't remember what Jim told me that something to that effect. And the show was dead, and he said, Hey, I don't have a partner for the show. So do you want to come on? I'm like, Sure, that's cool. And then we started doing it, and then Darren started getting death threats there. I was like, Dude, what the hell? There was some disagreement about how it's going on here.
You know, I thought I thought this guy died or something, but isn't this why we're doing the show? And he said, Yeah, yeah, know, I don't know. He's a dick. And then I said, Well, why don't you just the damn name to he'll come up with something better, like just unrelenting or some shit like that. You told him to come up with something better and he came up with unrelenting. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. He he understands better than the show that was getting him death threats.
Yes, I think so. That would be better. And I told him that after two episodes and then for the next 25 episodes, he kept the old name. And then. And then finally he got tired of it, I guess, and decided, okay, fine. Well, what publish under a different name now are that so? But I guess he's resurrected that old show. I don't know.
The funny thing is it was it was about a year after that event that he and I were just chatting in the back room during show one like it was during a no agenda on a Sunday. And I had been doing the if as as the guy trying to put things on the stream. I had been going out to all the podcasters and saying, Hey, you want to do a live show on Sunday? And we did actually for about a year.
We did the Up next live is what I called it, where we podcasters and try to get people to go on live right after no agenda. I thought it was very good, but I was having a bitch of a time motivating people to want to go on Sundays, which is why we don't do anymore. If somebody asks, maybe, but nobody does. But I didn't have anybody for this particular Sunday and I was talking to Darren about it in the back room and it was probably an hour before John and Adam finished up.
And I said, Well, you want to just get together and do a grumpy event. And he was like, Well, good. And so when No Agenda went live that morning, nobody knew that we were going to do it, including Darren and I. And we just started up and did the old intro and the old did you know, the we acted like we hadn't just taken a year off. We just went. And a lot of people are like, Wait, what is this show?
That was just my favorite part about bringing it back was that we brought it back with no fanfare, nothing. It just, Hey, let's go. Like there's no fanfare. But you are filming a little bit because this didn't happen impromptu right on that show. It happened that day beforehand because I knew a day before you guys were going on that it was going to happen. Did you sit there and can't keep his mouth shut? My stories, he can't keep his mouth shut. That might be your story.
Sorry, I'm eating a little sushi here. I'm might be your story. It's not the story. It's the one I was trying to push forward is the official narrative. Well, you keep up pushing it. That's the time. Nobody listens to this. So it's all good. I mean, if there's one thing the mainstream media has taught me, it's that the truth is, whatever the official narrative decides it should be. So if I can if I can push my version of events out there, then that becomes
the truth. As long as I say it often enough. Oh, yeah, Yeah. Well, as long as someone is listening, it's not enough to just say it. Oh, see, I'm trying to get you to help me spread my propaganda. And I know he's listening because apparently the PayPal payment didn't go through shit. Just saying. I know, I know. But you know how I know nobody's listening? Because when you said, Hey, would you like to do Unrelenting with me this week?
I said, Sure. And then you said, okay, then let's do it on Sunday. Right when John and Adam go do it. All right. Well, I knew. I figured it'd be a time when Darren's busy, so he's not going to be around my podcasting rig the way I have set up with the multiple monitors. My left side monitor always has the troll room. The troll room is absolutely jumping right now. Just going and going and going.
And I, I have to I'm trying to imagine and just decide like fool myself into thinking that they are all listening to this show intently. That would be pretty funny. Yeah. So it'd be a little creepy given that we're not broadcasting it. How the hell are they listening? Hmm. Well, you know, there's no reason that we couldn't have a live broadcast. You're just not the same address as the no agenda we could.
Like, there are other shows on the Nojeim, the stream that do their own, and I stream might even have the passwords necessary to broadcast to some of those. But I haven't been given permission. Oh, you do? Oh, it's amazing. But you're also lazy. I'm not only am I lazy, but I also don't actually like abusing power. I, I know I don't give that impression all the time, but. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. But also, you're lazy, so that's go. That's a main one. Yeah. Yeah. So how long were you at Microsoft?
When did you finally get out of there? We heard about, like, your early days. I was full time for 15 years now. I was full time. You're just under ten, but in clear. Must have gotten some decent stock options. And my time. Yeah, and I've liquidated them all. Mm hmm. You know, they. I left in 14. Okay. Almost ten years ago.
And one of the main reasons that I left was they completely after Windows eight, they completely restructured everything for the product that ultimately became known as Windows ten. One of the first things that they did was they got rid of three quarters of their testers and said, Oh, devs are now responsible for front line testing, which I knew was a horrible decision. I and I knew it would be and I, you know, got to yell and scream a bunch and they said, No, I'm sorry.
You know, there's obviously some cost cutting stuff going on. But if if you recall, if you used Windows ten, Windows ten was the first operating system, and this was really obvious early on where if you were a user of Windows ten out in the wild, congratulations, you were their beta testers because they didn't have any dedicated testers anymore.
Tell you what solid down, unlike there was a lot of those of us who were still there and had been in test were now charged with telemetry and data gathering. And at Microsoft they had they had this idea that we were going to convert into a big data company and Windows ten was going to use telemetry a.k.a collecting every piece of information you could possibly want or get out of the operating system.
About every user put them into huge databases and then number crunching in order to figure out, Oh, there's a bug here, so we're going to Google. Google. Yeah, that was that was in fact what they were trying to do because they had just spent the last decade trying to out Apple. Apple. It didn't work. That's a good way of phrasing it. Was Ballmer Stone in place when you were there? This was Windows ten. This was basically the first thing that Nadella did.
I worked under Nadella for seven months, you know, not that I thought Ballmer was all that spectacular. And yeah, we ran things, but the company did all right. Yeah, I don't know. Nadella was was definitely the one who came in. He was data focus. He was number crunching. He was also the one who the first thing that he did when he came in was institute huge rounds of layoffs. Microsoft had not had widespread layoffs until then.
Yeah. So yeah, they decided to ditch two thirds of the testers and the last third the rest of us got dumped into, Hey, you're now data scientist. When we had the only thing we were really good at, up until then was making, you know, using the product writing. My specialty was writing automation that would exercise the product and find bugs in it. And see, you're doing scripts for the testing. Yeah, I mean, there wasn't all scripts.
I mean, I wrote emulators, I wrote, I don't mean scripts as in scripting language. I mean oh scripts as in the process of automated testing. And I did a lot of that. The big thing that I did was I wrote a lot of frameworks and things for them, you know, harnesses that sort of thing. But suddenly the developers, the devs, the people who up until then had been responsible for writing features only and that was the only thing they were supposed to do is write features and fix bugs.
And they didn't have to do any more so they could focus solidly on that. And they came out with Vista and Windows eight and now they're like, Oh, and by the way, you also need to be the ones responsible for testing your product. I knew this was going to be a night, so yeah. Yep, I can see that. I do want to talk a little bit about games and game development, so I know that, I know that. And some of the people on this podcast have small bladders.
So right now we're going to take a short break and then be right back. Oh, okay. Yeah. So there we are. Now we're back and you know, the one of us that needs to go use the bathroom clearly did. So we're all good. But back from what it felt like, no time at all past it. Well, it did feel like that. I. I don't know about you, but I'm really fast. It takes me about 2 seconds to empty out my my bladder, so it's very fast.
Yeah, well, this robe is very absorbent, you know, Actually, I'm now just excited. That's even faster. That's great. That's awesome. So you wanted to talk about something a little bit more modern? Well, I don't know about more modern, but I did want to chat with you because, you know, I'm like, Darren, you actually play with your games about video game and development and not for three months. I think it turns out with what's longer, not for very much longer it might be. Oh, why is that?
It's one of the reasons that I have a rant. I Oh, okay. So you heard me say that I'm still running Windows eight, which is technically a discontinued operating system now. I could get it. Crap. Whether or not Microsoft is continuing to put out feature updates for the operating system because I sure as hell don't need them moving an icon for pixels to the left on my you know, I don't need that. I'm fine. The operating system is running. Everything is set up the way I want.
I have it locked down for security my own way. I know exactly what's on. I have my tools that I like. I would be happy to continue using this for quite a while. And also because I do a tech news show, I read the CDs that come out. And so I, you know, I don't recommend necessarily lots of people run without updates for a long time, but I know when most of the really hairy issues are going to come out because I read security bulletins.
Okay. Problem is that, you know, now like the browser that I launched in order to run Zen caster here, when I launched it, I got a big ass banner at the top that said the chromium is going to stop working on Windows eight soon. I get that same banner with Brave, which I guess is chromium. I get the same banner, you know, several browsers.
Firefox now has a similar banner, which is not chromium, but all of my software now is throwing up huge banners that basically says, we're going to well, it's not going to run on your oil. Yeah, it's back in the day. What's what do I do? I want to know why you haven't upgraded to Intel. I thought I'd made that clear in the last hour. I mean, so it's emotional, Not logical. Got it. No, it's. It has to do with the paternalism of the operating system.
It has to do with the fact that somewhere along the line Microsoft adopted the we are going to push what we want into your system no matter what. And people who compute nowadays are okay with that, both because they're willfully moronic and about how software is supposed to work. They don't want to know. They just want someone managing for. It's like the entire world turned into Apple. Like, I don't want to know what goes on on my device. You just handle it. Well, that's not what I want.
It's never been what I want. But you can still run Linux for life, but you can run a Windows ten for games now. Now you're getting ahead of you. And by the way, I don't want to run Windows ten for games because I don't want anybody to be able to force updates on me. I want to be able to evaluate what I put on my computer. That's that's been my line for a while.
And Windows eight was the last operating system that allowed me to decide when I could update and and whether or not I could, you know, whether or not I'm turned off updating on Windows ten. I'm not updating Windows ten now, but can turn off updates in Windows ten is what I said. Well, what I can do is I can, you know, go into make take effort to break the service. The problem, you can do that as well.
But I mean, it has an option for you to just stop updates in the process and then for you to defer them. But I think they'll turn it back on for you. Yeah, you can defer him indefinitely, though. I'm unconvinced. But the problem with updates and again, this is very Microsoft but it's also pervaded the entire industry is I want security updates. It would be retarded not to take security updates. It would be retarded to say, well, I wasn't going to mention that.
But yes, it would be retarded to say no. I would like my computer to remain vulnerable forever. What I don't want is feature. I don't want the new edge. I don't want you to put the fucking Cortana button back on my start menu after I've deleted it for the 37th time. I don't want I just want to like just match your security halts. But Microsoft and everyone else in the world who does automatic updates don't bother making the distinction.
They're like, Nope, we've got an update and we are so proud of this new thing we made that you're going to take it. Whether it fucks your stability or not, and so is Apple. You can selectively do updates on Microsoft Windows ten. You can select which updates you want, but eventually I think it's going to force unless you have like the enterprise version or something. I think it's going to force all of them on you.
There's nobody out there still running the the 2016 build of Windows ten because I would hope not. Yeah, I would definitely if, if I really liked that one and I customized it to be exactly what I wanted and I was able to keep security updates so that I was patched against threats. I don't need their new UI, I don't need their new chrome based edge. I don't need them to be coming through and giving me updates to software I will never use.
I don't need them coming through and, you know, putting the next version of Candy Crush on my system. So what? Have you finished the current version then? No, no, actually I don't. I didn't want that one either. So the reason why I run Windows ten is because I want it to be my computer. Now, everybody listening to this, which right now is none. But theoretically, if you release it, then all three of the unrelenting users will pick it up and maybe get this far into it.
Maybe they are screaming at me, This is why you should be running Linux. And I actually am. As of last week, I'm still booting this Windows eight, which is still the only one that I've got the audio pipeline working. So that's what's up right now.
Yeah. So you're you're kind of correct in this in Windows ten home you cannot disabled updates completely in the pro version you can do it through policy management you can turn off updates so it'll treat it just as though you're a corporate PC that is managed by the corporate update schedule. Well, when I evaluated this, this was not I mean, quite some time ago, like seven years ago.
Yeah. At this point, if I switched to Windows ten, I would be doing the same thing in two years because Windows ten is going completely. Yeah, I'm not leaving Windows ten, I'm staying on it forever. Okay, so you have the same idea that I have, except I had the I got it set up just the way I want it. I don't want anything. I don't like Windows 11 inches my mind. That's exactly why I'm still running Windows eight. I got it set up exactly the way I want.
Yeah, but still, I mean, that's Windows eight. I could see if you were doing that with Windows ten. I just don't understand why. Okay, well, I was doing the this with windows eight, nine years ago. People are like, Oh, well, you should go to Windows ten. Oh, no, not going to now. Now my extra desk at this point, my extra mature system is just about up, which is why, look, I'm sure I'll go to Windows 11, maybe in six or seven years from now. Oh, see, I'm not going to. Yeah, I don't see I just.
I want enough time to pass that everything gets fleshed out and all the tools that I want get added, which is about to seven years after that, always comes out. So another bit of software that oh, by the way, what you're describing is at some point Windows eight is not going to be functional. It's not going to be usable for me anymore. Yeah, not because it stops working. In fact, everything in this system exactly the way I want it to.
But the software will support all of these assholes out in the software company. Like there has been a change 20 years ago when somebody said, I'm supporting that product. What they mean is use at your own risk because you're not going to be getting any help desk from me. Now, when companies like Google come out and say, I'm not supporting that product, what they mean is they are adding code to break your experience. If they detect the product they don't like. Right, Right.
And that is a it might be a subtle distinction, but it's an asshole move and it's just something everyone does now.
And yeah, there's another software company that I get a big ass banner that says, you know, fuck you, we're going to disable everything soon, is every time that I launch steam, I get a big ass banner that says your digital library is going to be remotely rendered useless in a Now, I think it's 170 days or whatever it is, but it's been counting down the fucking banner has been short now. For which thing? Steam. Yeah, but for which. What's it going to run.
They're useless. What are you talking about? I'm saying they're going to disable the steam client on Windows eight. Oh Oh. Okay. Got it. They are going to have a problem. So that is him will not launch. Now, I do want the steam client. I don't fucking shut. You just want the software itself. I don't want steam at all. There is nothing about steam that I want on my system. What I want is for games that I have purchased and paid for and have played for a long time to work.
But the problem, of course, as you well know, is that steam has DRM, which means these games will not fucking launch unless Steam is running. And yeah, that's always been a problem with steam. When Steam says Fuck you, this software will never launch after this date on your operating system. What they are really saying is unless you go and bend over for Microsoft's paternalistic bullshit, we are locking you out of your entire digital library.
So I have 170 something days to finish and say goodnight to every game I've ever purchased on Steam. And that's not actually, that's not it's not actually true. The other operating system that I'm trying you know, I'm working now to try to finally get away from Windows eight is finally getting a mac. Now, I installed Arch, whether it's a Linux variant. Oh, and that may be a terrible mistake.
And all the people who know more things about which distros I should use might tell me, Hey, don't use that, but I will see. Hey, Linux is hit a milestone is the year of Linux on the desktop. Finally it is. They finally hit 3% 3% of desktop is now on the miracle. Well, after 20 years Microsoft's pulling. I'm not surprised. I look I like Linux. I don't see anything wrong with it. I've run it on and off for many, many years.
I will say in my current job capacity, my current being time, I do not run any copies of Linux. The last one I ran was for bitcoin related stuff, but I just the I run the PC for games and I run the Mac for all the business shit. I have a Linux machine that I've been running for about two years now. Three which is running Debian and that's where my bitcoin node is. Okay, there you go.
Yeah. So the one good thing that valve has done and every again, whenever I bring up this argument, people are like, well Valve has been really good about making sure that games come to Linux and that's probably true. And there is some subset I'm not sure which ones of my library that I might still be able to use once I move over to Linux.
But there are also a bunch of games that I have paid money for, may paid the purchase price to be able to play these indefinitely and through no fault of my own, these software companies are conspiring to break my experience. And that is what infuriates me. Yeah, I could see it.
But also you are such a tiny minority that they you're write off like I understand these companies and you know we had a saying in Windows which was, you know, if you break a feature for 1% of users well Windows at the time when we were working on this was Windows seven. Windows had about a 2 billion install base, which is a lot of computers. Well, what's 1% of 2 billion? That's how many people you're fucking over to 200,000 of music playing in the background.
No one of my neighbors is running a grinder or grinder. That's what it is. I was like, I. I noticed that it's only pops up when you talk, so I figured your gate has to be cutting it off the rest of the time. When. When I. So that's a grinder that's, that's hilarious. Yeah. Well, if, if anybody else has heard that and now you know what it is, I, I definitely I'm not as passionate about it as you are, but I have similar feelings about Steam.
I love the convenience of having every single game in one place. I love being able to install games on a new computer very quickly and simply out of my library. I like that Steam backs up all the data game, the data files so that everything would be forgiven if I didn't have to launch Steam just to launch a game. Just to launch a game. Yeah, and I agree with that because there's certain games, you can't actually bypass steam, but you have to log into the game manually.
But for other games, it's literally impossible to bypass steam. Yes. I mean, it depends on whether or not the game developer integrated the Steam API. Well and yeah. And then essentially, like I'll give you an example, a game I've come back to recently is played a lot and then they stop for about three years down back there. It is elite, dangerous and they have their own launcher. All steam does is just launch their launcher.
Yeah, well I can launch their launcher just as easy as steam to launch their launcher. But if I do that I have to manually log in. Whereas if I do it from Steam, I click play on Steam and it automatically knows who I am and launches it. Most of the games I play, I don't even launch from Steam like if I have to have Steam running, the process has to be going in order for the game to work.
But I'll start the thing and then I immediately kill it because I want no interaction with the steam program at all. Right. Yeah. What I do then is I go, Well, again, this is one of those places that I am freaking weird and they're like grinding down the whole house or something. It sounds like it. I, I run almost everything from a command line I have at any given time, like six console windows open. This is why I'm going to do okay on Linux, by the way. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I would.
I also type very fast and I know my file system really well, so I will type, you know, D games, apps, whatever and I will launch from the command line the executable for the game, whichever one of them ultimately has to have an XY. And that's how I launch the game. I don't use steam. Mm. You still use it to buy games are it not. Or you have been until now. Not in the last five or six years.
Once I realized that there, you know, somewhere along the line I discovered the ultimate problem with digital libraries. Anything DRM is that they will eventually be shut off. It's not they might be that's true. Early on I was like, Oh, if you if they have DRM, they might be shut off. Then I realize somewhere along the line digital libraries will be shut off. And so I stopped playing games.
I still will get games from GOG, for example, I will still redeem a code for a free game or something if I find one, but I the newest purchase that I've made on Steam was maybe Fallout four, which I think was 2016. Yeah, I definitely still buy among Steam. I just love the convenience of it. And while I am annoyed that seems to be running, it's an annoyance. It's not.
It's not a well, it's an annoyance right up until, you know, 20, 25 Windows ten goes out of support, 2025 Steam is going to start popping up a banner in your app that says you need to move to Windows 11. Steam is going to start working in so many days and it's going to start counting down every time you launch it. And then, yeah, the decision of going to the system you hate or you lose access to your whole library. Yeah, well, we'll see what happens.
Maybe we'll do an episode of at that point where I'll be going through and doing what your I could be. In fact, we should schedule this now. We'll do an app. Yeah, we probably should in 2025 where I tell you I told you so the week after July 4th, 2025, we'll do that. So. Exactly. Let's make it a day. Yeah, but I'm hopeful on two counts. One is that steam has been leading the charge to make games available and playable on the Mac platform.
And, and I appreciate Linux. Yeah. And then two is unreal had a huge announcement for at least those of us in the gaming development world that they are now going to be doing native compiles in unreal five for the M2 chips or the m-series of chips that's kind of shiny, which means games on the Mac will run faster than they are on the newest PC point. Considering that Unreal is basically the only viable big 3D engine left after Unity imploded.
Yeah, and they've got they've I mean I'm a fan of unreal I've, I've programed in unreal Yeah it's epic for a decade and it's it's a good engine. I've done stuff in unity. Well unity while is certainly usable I don't like as much Well but the native features in Unreal Engine five are just amazing. My understanding was that Unity ended up getting sold to a Chinese firm who were who, and I don't remember where I heard this rumor, but that the whole engine was going to be going pay only.
Oh, really? Hmm. I might have just started the rumor, but I thought I had heard it. Maybe. Yeah, there's not much. So the topic I want to bring up and I'm going to assume that you are not a player of star. I am not. I'm 88. What do you. What have you heard about it? What I know about it. I got from you. Okay. Okay. So Star Citizen for people that don't know, is a game that was crowdfunded literally a decade ago and has been in Alpha for about a decade, which should raise some eyebrows.
But What they've done is, I think in the software industry or another industry, frankly, it's called feature creep. It's when a project is not stabilized but is allowed to keep adding more and more functionality and features conceptually where the actual production can not keep up with the feature set that is being added. And as a result you have product that is unreleased and unfinished and is likely to remain in that safe.
I just want to tell you really, really quick side note, my absolute favorite Easter egg in Diablo two. So this is 20 years ago or so I was there was like a one in 100 chance of this enemy spawning, but it was it would show up in a pack of zombies that you were killing, you know, killing left and right. And it was a boss zombie that was unkillable and could absolutely destroy you. And the only way to do it was you had to leave the area. And if you came back, you wouldn't be there.
Okay. And the boss Zombie was named the feature creep. Or maybe. No, it was. It was the creeping feature, the creepy creature. That's good. There was a that somebody had some good creativity zombie called The Creeping Feature. Uh huh, exactly. So back on the subject. So the company that makes star citizens got COAG called Imperium Gaming and they were essentially the team of about 15 people that ran the Kickstarter. This team now, ten years later, this company is now at hundred head count.
It's 1100. They have it have studios, they have they do have openings, they have studios in multiple locations, including Austin here where I am. And I've met a number of their folks here at Austin, the guy that was the main sort of face of the Kickstarter is the still the CEO of the company. They have, as they say, raised, as other companies would say, over half a billion dollars worth of this game, which is still in Alpha. Mind you, according to everything read on the website.
This is an alpha game. Yeah, but it's not After G.M. was in beta for 16 years. I feel like that's true when beta labels are kind of not meaning as much days. Well, I don't mean yes, they meant back in, you know, the night back when we were programing. Yes, but but they I think the reason that it's an alpha perpetual is because it allows them to not be sued for things like selling things that don't exist and may never occur.
Oh, yeah, there there's a special like all kinds of special issues that can crop up as like when people are spending real money on ships and things. Yeah. Mm hmm. So I'll tell you the little MacGuffin thing that. That they just walked into here, which is biting him in the ass. And it's going to be interesting to see what they do is. So they've been selling spaceships for the game for years and years now, ever since the Kickstarter. One of the ways you could this is, let's say you pledge $500.
You got a particular spaceship when the game's released. Now, they have been releasing ships every year. It's not like they haven't released anything currently. There's about, I think, 110 spaceships that are in the game that are fully released. But the game itself is what's not finished. But they, they just now added, uh, like clothes, like a spacesuit basically to their online store so that now you can spend $10, buy a spacesuit. But this is where the problem comes in.
Is that like, there's nothing wrong with that. Tons of game sold, clothing items, rapture, oblivion, head horse armor. There you go. Here's where this is a problem is in its current version. They have recently meaning this year, the beginning of the year. They added this thing called persistence. Persistence means that an item in the game is a unique item and.
If it's not a temporary item, meaning let's say I go and I mine some rocks and get a crate of rocks that I make, I can take that crate flight and a spaceship landing or some random planet or moon walk 200 yards place that crate there, go back in my spaceship and leave. And that crate will be there indefinitely at that location until either I come back and pick it up or somebody else stumbles across it and picks it up and does something with it.
So everything in the game is now, quote unquote, persistent. So I can steal your creative rocks and you can. But guess what else you can steal? Like, let's say you shoot me and I'm wearing an armor that I just bought $10. Oh, and you can now steal that armor. That's that. Now, game design, that's a break design decision. If if you can take away things that people paid for. So the way they do with spaceships is you can never really lose a spaceship. You.