The Male Adoptee Experience: Understanding Anger, Vulnerability, and Community with Tim Perdion - Ep 172

Welcome to this episode of Unraveling Adoption, an intentional space to delve into adoption's complexities together. I'm Beth Cyberson. I'm an adoptive mom of a courageous and insightful 20-year-old son, Joey. I'm walking beside him while working on my own personal growth and healing. I'm also a certified coach

helping anyone seeking to move their lives forward. Joey and I are committed to helping anyone impacted by adoption, and we want to help the general public understand adoption's complexities better too. So I love having male guests on the podcast because I want my son to be able to hear the male perspective and because the adoption community is filled and overflowing with white women. Ah, we're everywhere. So whenever I can, I love to highlight the stories of male and non-binary adoptees.

Today's guest is Tim Perdian, an adoptee from Ohio who's been in reunion with his birth family and coming into adoption consciousness for the past 10 or so years. Like many other adoptees, in the past, he's struggled with anger issues, addiction, and relationship troubles, but he has found some tools that have helped him greatly. He wants to help especially other male adoptees and those who love them understand the importance of vulnerability and

asking for help. So welcome to Unraveling Adoption, Tim. Yes, yes. I think your story is very important for us all to hear, especially, you know, I have a son that's struggling right now with some of these issues. And I am all ears. I want to learn from your story. And I just think it's so important to listen to adult adoptees. So thank you so much. Well, why don't you just start giving us a basic outline of Yeah, so some of this with hindsight, having gotten into reunion and

understanding a little bit more of the story. So I was adopted about 60 days after I was born. New information is that I was born and then I was in some kind of foster care for the period of time up until I was placed with my parents. So that was actually something I just learned within the last couple of weeks. So my parents that adopted me were not able to have children. My mother wasn't able to have children. And so adoption

was their way to build a family. They adopted my sister 16 to 18 months before me. So I was the second of two adopted children in this family. And we were raised in a home that I would say was very loving. The intentions were all very good, yet I always felt something was just off, like I didn't belong, didn't fit in. I was a really competitive kid, played a lot of sports, and I didn't see any of that in the family that adopted me.

They were actually the opposite. So I was on a different spectrum. So, grew up feeling like I just had to figure out what I needed to do to fit in. And the way I look at it is, I almost feel like there was a blueprint, and I was a character to fit into that blueprint on what my mom had expectations for. And I don't think it was negative intentions. I think she just wanted the best. But at that time then, I felt like I just couldn't be

myself, or it wasn't okay to be myself. What I remember, a couple things that kind of illustrate, I would be angry as a child and sometimes there's just these outbursts of anger. And she's like, I don't know what to do with you or what's wrong with you. And so that would reinforce this thing, this notion that I was, there was something wrong with me or that I was different. and that maybe I might have done something in

order to be given up. And so I knew I was adopted from as long as they shared that information, but I don't know that I knew what it meant until later. And, you know, I think what I experienced was there weren't a lot of other adopted kids that I went to school with. So right away, that's another way of reinforcing something's different about me. You kind of internalize that

message as maybe there is something wrong with me. And then I find myself into like, these behaviors of proving and being really competitive, trying to prove, which then leads to getting into situations where I get bullied a little bit and where I'm constantly searching and seeking to attach to people, authority figures, teachers. And as I kind of navigate my way through grade school, I had some issues with a particular teacher where I was like really attached And

then I got in trouble in the class with a couple other boys. And then all of a sudden, this teacher just really didn't ever seem to want to talk to me or give me the kind of attention. And fast forward a few years. He starts kind of calling me names, you know, in a sports context, but calling me names with other kids. And so I went from like really competitive in sports to feeling like I'm going to go a different route. And I think that's where I started to find my

way into self-medicating with drugs and alcohol. And ways of just escaping or just trying to kind of numb this feeling of I'm alone, don't feel like I have the support. I don't feel like I can go ask for the help, right? So I just learned to kind of keep everything inside in a compartment. And one of the things that seemed awkward for me was growing up in a home where we just had lots of things we

didn't talk about. The biggest thing that I could say is that my father had a twin brother who had a same-sex partner from the time I was born until my uncle's partner died. I was around 17 of AIDS. And my dad's brother, twin brother, died several years later in 1990 of AIDS as well. We didn't talk about that. We didn't talk about that. You know, and so I think there's a

fear of what people would think. So the overall message I got growing up was put an image out to the world that here's how we want people to perceive us. And we don't really deal with whatever the conflict or any kind of things inside. We keep that Yeah. Yeah. So the carpet would be metaphorically really lumpy. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Your story is probably very familiar to a lot of adoptees that just feel misaligned, like, ah, I don't belong here. You know, I'm this athletic go-getter type

and my family's not. You sound more vibrant and wanting to face things directly and your family's, you know, shoving things under the rug. And that must have just felt so alone. So were you in high school when you found substances around that time? Did you find other kids to use substances with or were you by yourself in your bedroom? Yeah, there were other kids and then also probably alone as well, I think. Yeah, you know, it

might have started as a social thing. And then, you know, I think it kind of escalates to where like, this is just something that is accessible. And it helps me escape whatever it was, I felt I guess it was like this, this hole that you feel that you're trying to fill, or numb or whatever. And so that was some way of kind of doing that. So it started as a group thing, and probably was that but also a Yeah, you know, my son started using substances when he

was probably in seventh or eighth grade. And he found other kids that were getting bullied for being Asian. So it's like, of course, you find people that match you and that are verifying validating what you're going through. That makes total sense. And then he also then also did it by himself. And he kind of outpaced a lot of his cohorts. They're like, Joey, what are you doing? You're going too far. Did

that happen to you too? Like you went way further with the substances than Yeah, so I might have had a nickname in high school, Ralph, because I would drink too much. Okay, okay, throwing up. So yeah, it was like going way beyond Yeah, yeah, I think my son scared some of his friends. They're like, dude, we're just trying to have fun here. And he sure I'm sure he was also wanting to have fun, but it was way deeper for him. He was trying So yeah, and I would say,

I never considered myself an alcoholic. I don't drink anymore. I haven't drank for five years. But I would say I did definitely abuse alcohol from a perspective of just drinking too much and too much. I think in college, getting fairly drunk, blackout drunk type thing and just like where people might stop, you know, I might just have kept going. And so, yeah. just trying to soothe that pain or fill a gap

that isn't being filled in other ways. You know, especially as young people, they just they're like, I don't know, this seems to work. I'll just keep trying this. Yeah, it kind of does work for a little bit, but not super sustainable. So did you end up you said you don't really consider yourself an alcoholic. Did you do 12 step programs or was that Yeah. So I would say we could fast forward, but I navigated through life still wearing masks and trying to kind of keep this image of everything

looks good and professionally things look good. I had good jobs, but the relationship side of things, I've been divorced two times. And around the time I was 50 is when the anger started coming out. This was like five years ago. I met my biological mother in 2015 and met my biological father in 2016. And those are interesting stories. But in 2019, the anger started coming out and ultimately in really destructive ways. And it got to the point where I was like, I don't know what's going on, but I

need help. So I ended up finding my way to trauma mental health addiction Clinic, okay in Tucson, Arizona for 30 days and then spent 30 days in a sober living house in Houston, Texas Okay, and so this was the opportunity for me to dig into like what's going on below the waterline so to speak yeah, and I would say that what was Disappointing now looking back is

when I went to this place. We looked at childhood trauma. We looked at the addiction cycle we looked at codependency, we looked at, you know, the connection between food we eat, our mental health, we looked at just so many different things. Didn't look at the So few people are really attuned to that. And I've noticed that too, in the rehab world and addiction spaces, like, it doesn't come up like, oh, that's a huge, huge, huge piece of it. So gosh, did you figure it out? Did you piece it

In 2020, I read The Primal Wound. And so then I'm like, wow, that for me was very prescriptive, putting language to my lived experience. And it opened the door to me personally to say, okay, I had peeled a bunch of layers and I got into trauma that was layered on top of the adoption trauma. So now I'm like, okay, so I've just had this persistent search for why do I do what I do? And I might get some answers, but I'm like, yeah, but I don't think that's the real answer. And so I kept digging.

And so I really got into kind of the impact of the trauma related to adoption. And I wanted to understand more of the story. Because what I had heard in the early part of my reunion didn't quite line up with my lived experiences. And so I just kind of kept digging and digging and understanding a little bit more. It's like a puzzle that you don't have the box to, and you just keep getting all these random pieces. And over time, you're able to put more

That's a good analogy. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So you're, you're piecing it together and, but there's not just one giant piece, there's many little pieces. And what was your turning point there? Well, you know, part of it is to dig into what is that anger? What's the source of it? And to get into vulnerability pieces to say, okay, I gotta figure out where's all that from? And it was just stuffed down emotions. And so within the last couple years, I've really been

digging into understanding that better. And one of the acronyms I kind of saw somewhere was people say, well, how are you doing? I'm fine. Well, for me, fine was Which means all the suppressed push down anger which starts coming out. And so you're like, well, when it's in there, it's teaching,

it's, it's there to teach. And I think part of it was to teach, like, just how much I had stuffed down and recognizing then, that's the part of coming out of the fog, I think of like, going from thinking, oh, my adoption probably had some impact, but not that much of an impact. And maybe most of what happened in my life was because my childhood, But

then really understanding, no, that's probably not the case. It's like nuanced and there's much more and then say, OK, well, what was that in utero experience like and what might have happened there? And, you know, understanding that there's probably not a person who's been put up for adoption that had a positive in utero experience with the environment. Soothing

and calm and all that. So yeah, just recognizing that the emotion that was coming up was repressed stuff, getting to understand attachment theory, getting to understand just how all of that starts in such early stages, pre-birth and then during those early parts and say, okay, those are the experiences that I can understand and I can now realize what are those things I have to kind of work through. How do I process those feelings? How do I get into community with

other people who are kind of going through some of these same things? Men have a hard time identifying those feelings, we stuff them down, we try to make it seem like we're okay, we're stoic, all those things, because we're just supposed to suck it up. Yet, when I get into community now with other men, and we create these safe spaces, we see that everybody's posing.

Everybody's trying to make it seem like they're okay, and they're not. And so it's really valuable to create those safe spaces and to have guys shoulder to shoulder and recognizing that we can support each other. But if it's safe, and we're all struggling, we're all struggling. And then we say, well, what were our childhoods like? And you go around the room and everybody's like, Yeah, my dad was less like a drill sergeant, or,

you know, just was really tough growing up. I never saw expression of emotion, or my dad was present, or parents were divorced, or all the different things that would lead to not having good blueprints or good models of how to express emotion in a Yeah, how are you supposed to know? Yeah, so you're seeing that in these rooms with other adoptees that a lot of adoptive parents, especially the dads, probably as your role models, were kind of shut down, unemotional, detached. And

it's no wonder. And like you said, there's no scenario that I can think of where a birth mother's pregnancy is sweet and peaceful and full of self care. You know, the whole time you're being baked, there's trauma happening in utero. And just all of that just adds up. And so what drove you to find one of those rooms with Well, I think one of the things again, is trying

to be understood. And sometimes even with therapists or others like there's a minimization of the trauma related to adoptees for those that don't understand it. Yes. And I think I found my way to talking to a therapist who had been adopted, okay, who also had given up someone for adoption. And so, you know, when you're talking to someone who understands the experience, you don't have to take all the time to see if people understand it.

There's nothing more gratifying than to be in that type of a space and feel seen, heard, understood. And so as I kind of went through the door of connecting with other groups of adoptees, I'm like, well, this is a place that feels like I belong, feels like I'm understood. And in some ways, it's been really helpful to kind of have access

to other adoptees to share those experiences. And a couple of years ago, I was in an Uber somewhere, I think it was in Dallas, and just get on the topic of adoption, and the guy was adopted. And I start articulating to him all of my struggles and all the ways in which I coped to deal with those things. And I think he almost stopped the car because he just couldn't believe. He'd been struggling with all this stuff, and he never really connected the fact that this

could be related to adoption. That was an example. I've been to several men's retreats and around a campfire, there's other men that have adopted children. And they're talking about some of the struggles that not quite sure what's going on inside my child. I can't quite understand it. But when I started to share some of my own struggles, it's almost like I could don't need to know the situation, but could kind of say, here's probably some of the things that are going on

inside. And so, to me, that's just like an opportunity to help other people. And you don't help other people by staying quiet. You have to tell the stories, you have to connect, go find those groups, go find those circles of places where people are wanting to hear more about those experiences. And I would wonder for you, there probably was a time where I don't know if I want to hear that. But no, I really do want to hear that because sometimes I do find adoptive parents,

they don't want to know some of those things. Or they might say, well, I think my child's fine. And maybe at times it looks like they are, but that might also be what I want to believe. And so I might not be as curious as I could be to really truly understand. And I think for me, if I was 12, 13, I might not have ever understood what was going on inside of me to be able to articulate that in a way that someone say, oh, Let's dig into adoption. We weren't doing that

No, no way. No way. Yeah, you and I are about the same age. And yeah, we didn't talk about that stuff in my house either. Yeah. And as an adoptive parent, there's a lot of, Oh, not my kid. My kid's fine. A lot of denial because it, it reflects on you. You know, it's a little bit of ego in there and like, Oh no, if my kid's struggling, what does that say about me as a parent? Oh no. I didn't have too much of a choice though because my son went into crisis at age

15 and then everything just sort of fell apart. So then I had no choice but to look at it and figure it out. And then I read The Primal Wound and I was on my way. And if anyone doesn't know The Primal Wound, it's a book a lot of adopted people know and a lot of people in the adoption constellation know. It's written by an adoptive parent, Nancy Verrier, and it was kind of one of the first, not the first, but one of the first books that really outlined what's going on for the adoptees.

And there are other books now that are probably better. I mean, it's a couple of decades old, but I know a lot of people that that book is what kind of flipped the switch for them, and it certainly did for me. Oh my gosh. What do you think are some of the, and you've hinted at them, but for male adoptees, there seems to be extra layers of blockage. Is that that cultural male thing, don't show your feelings, that kind

I think there are obstacles there. One thing that I'll say, getting into some of my own faith, getting into faith helped a lot. And I read a book that probably described this obstacle better than anything. And it's kind of the orphaned heart. The orphaned heart is a heart that's closed off because it doesn't trust. because it has fears of abandonment, rejection, and intimacy. And as I think about my own journey, I didn't trust. Trust had been violated, didn't

feel like people were safe, so I had a hard time trusting. Inherently, from a subconscious standpoint, you have this fear of abandonment, And on the other end of the spectrum, fear of intimacy, you get too close. And, you know, so there's this oscillation between, and then just inherently, also, we all want to belong, but sometimes it feels like we've been rejected. So no trust, fear of abandonment, intimacy and rejection. resemble. So what do I do? I build a wall around my heart,

so to speak. So therefore, I don't have access to it. If I don't have access to it, I have to cope. I have to show up in the world with masks that say I'm okay, coping mechanisms, and I might find what would be considered counterfeit affections, like money or stuff, materialism, or how I succeed in the workplace, or drugs or alcohol or sex or relationships or pornography or whatever those things are that I might be trying to

soothe with. Yeah, people use all sorts of things. And so the bridge to get out of that and into what would be called true sonship or daughtership would be forgiveness. Oh, who are we forgiving? Forgiveness of self, forgiveness of others. So if I let go of the things that created that wall, bitterness, anger, resentment, you know, that's the hardening of the heart as well. So the softening of the heart is I've got to let go of those things that created that. But that's really scary, right? But

because it's become an identity. And my identity is wrapped up in protecting myself. So I'm more used to just being in survival mode. But I'm restless, I don't feel free, I feel burdened and in bondage. And if I want peace, and I want freedom, and like when I went to the rehab place, the first thing they ask you is like, what do you want to get out of this? Oh, and I would have just said, I want to be free. And I want peace and

freedom. And so this notion of I've put this hard layer of stuff around my heart to protect myself, but inside it's like turmoil. It's like, you know, you see a duck, looks calm on the top of the water, but underneath it's paddling furiously, and so it's not peaceful. So I think that accessing, and it's like an archaeological project, going inside, understanding all those layers. Something I read in a book called Soul Care is we will only ascend to the level

of our self-awareness. So if I don't go in to understand why I do what I do with the willingness and the open mind to letting go of things that no longer serve me. So it's very complicated, I think. And I was on the page of, I can't continue the way I am. And I don't want to leave the world just to leave the world. Okay. Because I want to figure this out. And so, you know, I know that sometimes you have these thoughts of maybe this would just be better if I wasn't here.

And that's a common thing for people who just don't know what to do. I'm so stuck. I don't know what to do. I feel alone. But I would also say that the sign of strength, and I didn't know at the time, and having the courage to ask for help, Okay. That's the other aspect too, I think. So there's all these levers that are available to us, but I don't want to ask for help because in the world where men need to seem like they have it all together, we

might have been taught asking for help was a sign of weakness. Yeah. Yeah. So did you notice when you started asking for Well, it was awkward and uncomfortable because you got to do something that you're not used to doing and going into that rehab environment, You're stripped of basic things like having your cell phone. You've got to get in line for things. You've got to report at different places to check in. So you're basically stripped of things that would allow you

to be on your own. So you have to learn what it looks like to advocate for yourself, you have to learn what it looks like to ask others for help. So right away, they're teaching self advocacy. And if you want to see a particular therapist, you got to kind of make some of that type of stuff. So I started to get over the discomfort of having to ask for help. I'm not sure I'm perfect at it. Sometimes it's still hard, but You know, when you see some success, receiving was

always hard, right? So if I have that, I'm not worthy, I'm unlovable wound, that belief that might have started at the core, and I don't believe, then I have a hard time receiving help or love or kind gestures. One of my coaches said, you need to learn how to give without expectations and So I might have given to others with a string attached to if I do this, then I'll get this. Yeah. But if I started to give without any expectation of anything in

return, I didn't have to get something from that person. But maybe it would come in another way from another person. So this notion of I'm worthy, and I have to allow that in, versus a somebody would give me a compliment, like I, you know, kind of pushing it away, receiving it very well dismissing it. Because I'm like, maybe I'm trying to be humble, but it's not really humble. It's like, maybe Yeah. Yeah. Pushing away. I see that in a lot of people I know. I

do that myself sometimes too. Oh my gosh. I'm resonating with all the things you're saying and I've seen it in my son and in other adult adoptees I know. And I think that your talk here will resonate with a lot of people and I really appreciate you sharing it. What advice do you have to other male adoptees? Maybe someone like my kid that's 20. You know, a younger guy, Well, your internal world has to be confusing. And first of all, I appreciate that and validate that,

I guess. Second is that there is help. You're not alone. So it is like it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to not be okay. And you're worthy. The messages, the lies, the limiting beliefs that we might have in our heads based on maybe, you know, trauma and other things that might have seemingly validated those lies, because we get that confirmation bias. So being open to receiving help to asking for it. And if I would have anything to say to my younger version, if I were 18, I'd be like, get

to know your inner world. And don't always think that the outside is where you want to put your attention. So we often want to blame, we often want to look for things outside of ourselves. And I think getting to know yourself at a really deep level, intimately, And don't think that you know kind of what's going on inside there. There's a lot of complex things going on. And it's like just a willingness to peel back the layers if you

That is some really great advice. There's a lot in there that people could work on and pick apart and I just really appreciate you sharing your story and obviously everybody is still on this trajectory of learning and growing and you're not saying you figured everything out perfectly and you're still on the path as all of us are and I really appreciate that. Is there a way that people can get a hold of you or do you have other

Yeah, so I have a website, prodigalpathways.com. I'm starting to do more blogging there and just sharing some of my experience. I'm going through a life coaching course right now, looking to get that certification, which is a way for me to kind of help guide others and come alongside others to take all of the experience I have and share that with others to validate them and help them in their own journeys.

I'm also on LinkedIn, got a Facebook page, but the Prodigal Pathways is the place where I'm going to put more of the content related to this out on that. And so there's some things out there now, and there'll be more and Okay, that's great. I'll put those links in the show notes in case anyone is listening that's driving or unable to write that down right now. So go look in the show notes, which are usually below the feed of the podcast, or sometimes you have to like, swipe left

or right on your phone. So just find it somewhere around there. Is No, I don't think so. The biggest thing is you're not alone. And there is always light. You know, sometimes it feels dark, but there's definitely light out there. And I think getting into community with others and not trying to do this on your own is Oh yeah, that's huge. That is huge. And we do have the community calendar on our website, unravelingadoption.com slash

calendar. There are tons of support groups. There's some just for male adoptees and there are some for all adoptees and some for all the constellation together and all sorts of different groups and retreats and all sorts of things. So check that calendar out if you're looking for support and let me know if you have anything to add to that as well. Well, Tim, thank you so much. I

really appreciate you sharing your heart with us. You're doing great work. I hope people come follow you on your blog page and on your social media and just keep up with you. And thank you so much for being Thank you. And I appreciate everything that you're doing. I think the more stories that are out there also helps amplify this platform and allows people to see that there is a expanding community Yes, there is a lot of people out there that want to help. So

reach out. There's lots of support out there. So no one is alone in this and we're all trying to help each other. So thank you for joining me today. After you go check out Tim's website, make sure and go look at unravelingadoption.com for all sorts of resources and events and things that we have posted there. I haven't talked about the book much lately. We wrote a book last

August called Adoption and Suicidality. We really hope the book helps lots of people who are adopted or who have adopted people in their lives, or birth parents for that matter, because adoptees and birth parents have exponentially higher rates of suicidality. So please check that book out on Amazon if you are so inclined, Adoption and Suicidality. And we really appreciate you helping spread

the word about the book to therapists and other families. And also, if you've read it or listened to it, please write a review on Goodreads or Amazon. That will help a lot of other people find the book too. Please share this episode with anyone you know who might be a male adoptee or might have a male adoptee in their family or wants to just learn about how better to support adoptees in general and to understand the adopted experience. We really appreciate you listening in

today. Thanks for all your support. Tim and I want you