Pride and Resilience: A Transgender Adoptee's Path with Sanjay Pulver - Ep 151

Welcome to this episode of Unraveling Adoption, an intentional space to delve into adoption's complexities together. I am Beth Syverson. I'm an adoptive mom of an open-minded and insightful 20-year-old son, Joey, who is figuring out how to launch as an adult. I'm walking beside him while working on my own personal growth and healing. I'm also a certified coach

helping primarily adoptive parents. Joey and I are committed to helping anyone impacted by adoption, and we want to help the general public understand adoption's complexities better too. Well, when you're listening to this episode, if you're listening to it right away when it comes out, it's Pride Month, June. Happy Pride, everyone! I always like highlighting adoptee voices with identities that we don't typically hear from. So I'm happy to introduce you to

a trans man adoptee who is our guest today. Sanjay Pulver is a transracial intercountry adoptee from India who was raised by white parents in San Diego, California. He found out that he has a twin brother somewhere Sanjay and I have many common friends and acquaintances in the adoption world. Plus we both inhabit Unitarian Universalist spaces and we're both musicians. So we have lots of things in common. Sanjay is an advocate for transgender people, adoptees, and

fights against anti-Asian hate. Welcome to Unraveling Adoption. Sanjay, I'm so glad your important voice is here. Thank you so much, Beth, for having me. I am really honored to Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, can you just first briefly share your origin story, whatever parts of it, you know, and don't mind sharing with us Sure. So I guess the spark notes version I'll call it. I'm from a very small village outside of Hyderabad, India, relinquished around three weeks

old. I was placed into the orphanage known as Action for Social Development. was there for about nine, 10 months, then placed in a unofficial foster home for about a few months after that. And then at 13 months old, I came over here to San Diego and have been here ever since. Like you said in your intro, I do have a fraternal twin brother. I do also have four biological older sisters and one biologically older brother. and I also don't have any information as far as names,

photos, any other identifying information. I just know that they exist or they did exist at the same time that I was born. I also don't know if I have Okay, wow. And in India, do they do a lot of DNA out So, yes and no. The yes part is they do have DNA testing companies. Okay. The no portion is they will only do geographical tracing as far as where in India you're from or DNA wise, sort of like 23 and me in ancestry, but they absolutely do not do any family

Really? Is it like against their culture or religion or Sort of. So even though legally they abolished the caste system, India still very much abides by the caste system. Sort of the same way that, you know, we say, oh, well, you know, we had desegregation and we're doing all these anti-racist things and racism is gone Same idea, except with the caste system in India, very OK, so it's a big black hole of genetic identity.

In some ways, because we do know enough about cast and families that certain last names are indicative of certain cast. Sort of like how in Europe, if you have the last name Smith, you might have been a blacksmith or a tailor or a writer and things like that. Yeah, yeah. again, parallel concepts, but the issue is there's still so much taboo around having children out of wedlock, inter-caste

marriage, and all those sorts of things. So for a lot of lower caste or Dalit women, so also Dalit is the word used to describe the cast of people that used to be known as untouchable, but we don't say untouchable anymore, we say Dalit. Okay, okay. So for a lot of Dalit women and people in lower caste, having children unknown is very taboo still and people's lives are legitimately in danger when this happens. So children who are adopted within India are often not

Okay. And as far as the DNA testing piece, their laws are written as such that you can basically take the 23andMe test in India, but you're not allowed to send it out Oh, okay. So it's kind of worthless for any sort of family Correct. So all of their demographic sample

data for both Ancestry and 23andMe come Okay. Okay. Interesting. Interesting. And I know several adoptees from India, but not as many as like Korea and China. How many of you are there, do you That's a great question. As far as I'm aware, Indian adoption sort of started in, I believe, the 70s and 80s, and that was mostly Europe for the very first sort of wave of inter-country adoption from India. And then there was a woman who ran the IMH, International Mission of Hope Adoption Organization

and Orphanage, which has been linked to Mother Teresa. And a lot of those adoptees ended up getting sent to the U.S. in the 80s. The 80s were when Indian adoptees first started coming to the U.S. and then I came over here in 1993. And then I believe it's still legal to adopt a child from India, although I think the rate of adoption from India has declined I think all international adoption is declining, thankfully. which is a good thing. I would like to believe that there is going to

be a day when there are no more intercountry adoptees. I don't know how many Indian adoptees there are here in the US. I know at least a good, you know, maybe 10 to 15, maybe 20. You know, I helped start a Facebook group called Indian Adoptee Connections. So we're trying to sort of get ourselves organized so that eventually we can be out there kicking ass and taking names like the Korean adoptees and all the other international, inter-country adoptee coalitions.

Well, it takes a certain number of people. And so my son was adopted from Japan, and there's very few people adopted from Japan. I did find a group, but they don't have a very big voice because there's not as many. Well, good. I'm glad you found some and you're leading the charge to find more and make people feel like they are included. And I'm sure there are specific things that each country's adoptees have to talk about, you know, specific struggles and things that you had to

deal with. So thank you for sharing that. And let's talk about your transgender identity. because I want that to be the focus of this episode. When did you start questioning your

So I think I didn't have the language for what I was experiencing or what I was feeling. But I would say pretty early on, I would say at least by the time I was maybe four or five. So it is known that most children understand their sense of gender identity by the time they are about four or five, even if they don't have the language to express it. And I do actually know some folks who had kids come out to them as friends at like two or three. So

it is a thing. It's not just, oh, kids don't understand. They do.

Yes, they do. And we need to take them seriously. And we also need to hold space for the fact that gender is a journey and that anybody who is exploring their gender in whatever way, shape or form that manifests for them it's okay, and if at the end of the day somebody has gone through gender exploration and then they reaffirm to themselves, oh no, you know what, I am actually cisgender, my identity inherently matches what I was assigned at birth, that's

Okay, great. Yes. Everybody gets to decide for themselves, right? Is what you're saying? Yes. Everyone gets to decide, and they can change their mind, and they can grow and emerge as they will. And we all need to leave space for that. I totally agree with you about that. And

So medically transitioning, I started September 16, 2014. So this year will be 10 years since I started testosterone. And I would say that I socially started transitioning probably 2012, 2013. Although, again, I didn't have the language to describe what I was experiencing. And how old were you at that time? So I was 20, 21. And then I was a couple of months away from turning 22 when I started to

stop. All right. I also think for myself, I am glad that I waited as well because I needed to do some figuring out for myself in other areas of my life and I think going through my teenage years as a trans person in 2007, 2008, in the middle of high school, when Prop 8 was happening in California and all of that, I think I wouldn't have been able to manage, even though I was the only openly queer girl in my high school. And that was only 2007, 2008. So that

because there are probably many other queer people, which is not open. And you came

That's always the million dollar question. As far as the sexuality piece, they were fine with it, really. They were just like, oh, we were kind of waiting for you to tell us. OK. Or we had a feeling, which, on the one hand, is nice that they were accepting and supportive. On the other hand, there's the feeling of, well, geez, if I knew you were going to be cool about it, why did I just spend

so much time agonizing over how to tell you? And since this is an adoption related podcast, especially as an adoptee, figuring out what level of safety coming out and disclosing brings, that's an extra level of calculation that would have to happen. As far as the gender piece, that's a little more complicated because my adoptive parents in their adoption application specifically wanted a daughter from India. They were very explicit about

that and they did. They got what they wanted for 22-ish years and now they have a son for the rest of their life. Are you the only child? At least in my adoptive family, yes, if you don't count the cats. Okay, you Okay. All right. They might have had some disappointments because their vision for their child was to have a girl. That's what they went shopping

Yep. Being trans was not in my product description and, you know, my 30-day money-back guarantee return You were talking about the added layer for adoptees and coming out and was there a part of you that was like, shit, they might give

I was definitely worried about that because I knew earlier when I sort of was dipping my toe in to just sort of figure out and test the waters of how well they would react. And then asking my adoptive dad, well, how how would you feel if you had adopted a son rather than a daughter? And he said, well, we wanted a daughter and that's what we got. And I was like, oh, okay, well, that's my answer. And then he was like, well, you know, we wanted you. And

I'm like, which is interesting. They were actually offered a boy first and they said no. And then they had me. So I'm just like, well, shit. So I was really scared Yeah, I bet. I bet that you tested the waters and they came back with the wrong answers. Oh, shoot. Yes, they did. Yeah. They failed that test. Dang it. It just is a great reminder to all of us that adoptees have

many extra layers. And you add trans on top of it or queer of any sort on top of it, you have issues with your adoptive parents and your birth family, if you ever get in touch with them. But pretend like some miracle happens and DNA opens up and you're able to find your birth family. What kind of gymnastics are you going to go through in your mind with

So I would have to really take some time to reflect on whether or not I would want to reach out and figure out how to navigate reunion because there's a language barrier, first and foremost. There is a socioeconomic barrier, most likely an educational barrier, and they may not have ever met a queer person. They may not have ever met a trans person. I can probably guarantee they probably never met a trans person. How do they like queer people in India? Well, not so great at the moment. It's

slowly getting better. So they had criminalized homosexuality under Queen Victoria in imperial India. then they decriminalized it in, I want to say 2013 or something like that. And then they recriminalized it semi-recently. And then they just also decriminalized it again. So they're kind of going back and forth around it right now. So it's not safe to be any form of LGBTQ in

India. Not safe, like literally not safe. And I would have to really think about whether or not in basic terms, my physical safety and my life is worth reunion? Because if it means possibly being hurt in some way, jumped, whatever, hopefully not, but the possibility of being killed, is reunion worth risking my actual life over? And My answer currently is no, it's not. And as far as the mental gymnastics that I think about right now is if I do try to do any sort of searching, my

approach would be saying, hi, my name is Sanjay. My sister was adopted from XYZ. This is her name. This is all of her info. She can't be here Yeah. doing this on her behalf, is there anything you can do? Because this is the one opportunity and area that I feel like the very minuscule amount of male privilege that I have would actually be beneficial because India is still so patriarchal.

And it was in the 90s, too, because they wanted sons, not daughters, very similar to China's one child policy, except just not legislated into action. So tying all of that into the trans experience. My relinquishment was based partially on my assigned gender at birth. Being adopted was an assumption made And then reunion is basically me Yeah, because if you go in there saying, hey, I'm a trans man, I used to be

this other name. Yeah, they'd be like, they couldn't hear you after they hear trans man, they'd be like, turning off their brains. Yeah. Gosh, Sanjay, I'm so sorry that you're going through all this. It's just so many extra layers that you as a young adult have to deal with. Plus whatever you're doing to make a living and doing your life and social life, you know, come on. This is a huge extra bunch

of layers that you have to deal with. And it's dangerous. Do you want to talk about trans people in the world and literally

Yeah, I think especially right now, one, going into an election year, it's more important than ever. Two, it is also Pride Month, so I'd be remiss if I didn't mention something about trans roots and art elders and art history. and also just knowing how to be an ally, because ally is a verb, as my very, very good dear friend Spencer Bergstedt says. He has a whole class on ally

is a verb. So right now, I don't have the number off the top of my head, but there's at least, I think, close to, if not over 500 pieces of legislation attacking trans people that are currently active right now all over the country. And come November, whatever person ends up in the White House could mean a lot of different things for. trans

people and queer people in general. And it is really scary to feel like my existence could be legislated out of reality at any moment and not really knowing what the next six months are going to look like and worrying about how to maintain the access to the healthcare that I need. figuring out an exit strategy if I need one. But also as an adoptee, I don't have dual citizenship, so I can't really do that route. Yeah. And escaping to India is not going to help you really. as

Yeah. And even within the U.S., I know there are pockets that I could go to where I would be safe, but I also know that would mean having to reestablish care with different doctors and all of these things. So, yeah, I'm glad that I'm still in California So how can we, who are listening, especially adoptive parents, but anyone in the community who's listening, how can we better ally as

So first and foremost, we're people just like everybody else. So I know there's a lot of discourse around the use of pronouns. Okay. So pronouns are not preferred. They are someone's pronouns. If somebody says, I would like you to use He can his for me that is not up for debate. It's

just like you using somebody's name. David but you call them Dave and they really don't like Dave as a nickname, but you said you know what this is my More convenient for me and I'm gonna disregard what the person has said and stated makes them comfortable That's not and I'm just gonna go with what I want to do same thing with names and pronouns but when it

comes to individuals. Also, they then used in the singular context has been around since Chaucer, who was writing in Middle English and the Canterbury Tales. So it's not this new thing that has just happened. But also, I would say using your positions as people who consider themselves allies or even accomplices, or, you know, we using the word co-conspirator, sometimes, and really getting into the thick of it and standing up for the trans people in

your life when they're not in the room. Because if they're there and you stand up for them and that's wonderful and being like, yeah, I have your back. But if you're not doing it the other 11 months out of the year, or if you're bragging about how good of an ally you're being, that can come off as very performative to us rather than, hey, thank you for just actually standing up for us. speaking up for us when we're not there. When nobody else is going to be around to witness what you're doing.

And then I'd also say when you're talking to a trans person, don't ask them about any surgeries or any procedures they may or may not have had because that's really invasive and absolutely disrespectful because I'm not going to walk up to somebody and be like, hey, so what's in your pants? We just don't do that. You know, oh, do you have your nipples pierced? Like, nobody

asks those questions of cis people. But suddenly when you say, oh, you're trans, everybody's like, I want to know because I am either a really morbid curiosity or in a fetishizing kind of way. And unless I am going to be having sex with you, the contents of Yep. You can think of the questions in your head and they do not come

Or if somebody is asking, the trans person has the right to say, I don't feel comfortable answering that question or saying, you know what, here's a better way of phrasing that. Or being open to constructive feedback and recognizing that when trans people are being, has to be the ambassadors of our identity. One, we're not a monolith, just like adoptees aren't

a monolith. where people aren't a monolith, people of the global majority are not a monolith, trying to uncouple that notion and recognizing that just because talking to me, I'm super open and I'm willing to answer questions and do that education, somebody else may not want to and that is absolutely well within their rights to disclose Yes, they don't owe us any sort of education or explanations. They can just live their life. Yes, people, let's get

this pulled together. Oh, we can be so rude sometimes. Okay, well, this is all very helpful. I am very grateful that you came on to talk about being a trans adoptee. That's a very important intersection of several different things. And I would like to continue supporting you however

I can. Is there a way people can get ahold of you and reach out to you if they have questions? Or do you have any projects I'd say Instagram is probably the easiest one for me. It's just my name Sanjay.Pulver on Instagram. I try to do most of my adoptee related things on there as that is the only platform my adoptive parents aren't on in some way, shape or form. Gotcha. Okay. So

you can connect with me on there. I do hope to have at some point because it is also part of pride having a far off conversation around adoptees who have also found their way into the BDSM kink community and because there happens to be a lot of overlap there. Interesting. So eventually having a conversation about what is it about our identities as adoptees that have led us to that community as

well. Also, I did want to have a last quick mention around names as well with adoptees and being trans as an important piece because trans people we find empowerment in picking our names and with adoptees and especially inter-country adoptees so much of the time our names are taken from us

and we're given anglicized names. I was given a different name that was still Indian and then really just going to Indianbabynames.com and starting with the S's and just scrolling until I found one that I resonated with, realizing that I've had three first names over the course of my life as well that I hadn't even considered or looking at genetic mirroring when we talk about starting HRT and

Oh, just talk to your family, look at your photos. And I don't have access As far as facial hair and balding and stuff like that, is that what you're talking about? And it can be really isolating for trans adoptees when we don't have the means to see ourselves as who we're meant to be, but also having no frame of reference of

Thank you. It's taken me a long time to grow it and I'm not ever shaving it off because I'm going to look about 12 years old and that's not going to be a good look for me or anybody I That's good. That's good. That's good. Well, gosh, I really appreciate you coming on and I hope you are able to stay safe and to continue emerging as your complete, whole, unauthentic self. And whatever I can do to help you with that, just let me know. I'm right up the street. Do you have any last words or

I think we covered most of it in the time we had. I just want to thank you again for having me on. It's been a real pleasure and I'm very thankful that you are doing the work of unpacking what it means to be an adoptive parent of a transracial and intercountry adoptee and doing the work also unpacking what it means to also navigate queerness as an adoptive parent and all

those intersections as well. So we need more people like you out there doing the work and being able to relate to other adoptive parents and saying, hey, here's what we need to do to truly, truly support our children and make sure that they thrive as much as they can, because as we hear so often, adoptees are at four times the risk of attempting suicide and then adding being queer on top of that and being trans on top of

that. And then if you are person of color that also adds layers so you know the odds get stacked exponentially fast. Like we literally need to make sure our trans friends adopted and not are safe like literally just And we've always been here. We've been here since the

beginning of time. We're not going anywhere. I just want to shout out that there are trans men elders, too, and they deserve just as much of the recognition as Marsha P. Johnson, Sylvia Rivera, David Weakley, who is a pastor in the Methodist Church who has been out for We started transitioning in 1975, if not sooner. These are people who deserve just as much recognition Nice. Well, happy Pride, Sanjay. Yes, happy Pride to you, too. You have a lot to be proud of and just keep on going. Yep.

Very good. So listeners, make sure and find Sanjay on Instagram and find Unraveling Adoption at unravelingadoption.com and also on all the socials. We love to connect with you. Reach out anytime. And just a reminder that I am a coach. If anyone is looking for a coach as an adoptive parent or an adoptee or just a person, I am available as a coach and I deeply want to help other people find their authentic voice. So reach out to me anytime, unravelingadoption.com. Thank

you all for listening. Sanjay and I want you all to stay safe.